Is resolution THAT important?

[leebrandt33]

I just saw the movie DRIVE with Ryan Gosling. It was shot with the Alexa and let me tell you, the images were stunning. STUNNING.
Even though the camera only outputs 2k, at no point that I go "hey, I wish I had more resolution". In fact, the resolution was pretty amazing folks. Very, very detailed. Even more so, the color science was spectacular.
So I ask, is having ultra high resolution that important? (for feature film that is. I'm not interested in corporate or wedding videos). Don't get me wrong, I'm a Red supporter and I like their cameras. However, I get the feeling that certain manufacturers really push ONE aspect of shooting, when in my opinion, it's the camera that does several things well. It's not just about resolution, it's about resolution plus DR plus compression (or lack of).
The images I see coming out of the Sony F3 s-log are impressive. And think of this: if you're recording 444 s-log, you're getting 2k out of every single channel. The resolution with that type of recording ought to be fantastic.
I know Red is great with resolution, but it seems that when it comes to DR it's a bit behind on the Alexa and Sony F3 s-log. I'm starting to believe that although resolution is important, dynamic range could be even more. I mean, a Scarlett at 3k resolution ought to be more than enough, considering that I just viewed a 2k film and it looked sufficiently detailed for a 50 foot screen.

[leebrandt33]

But I'm sure that the new Monstro sensor upgrade will be fantastic in all these areas.

[Kemalettin Sert]

how was the movie??

[Stephen Aldridge]

I haven't seen "Drive" but the trailer looks fantastic! I would have to say though, that it really comes down to preference and using the right tool for the job. If you like the options that the Alexa gives you, more than the options the Red can provide, then go with the Alexa. For me, I come from a stills and motion background so the added resolution is a huge factor for me. I also shoot a lot of action which means the higher frame rates on the Epic are essential. (I'm speaking as though I had an epic, which I don't, but someday I will.) I really think Jim wanted a camera that would do it all and give you the most options; resolution, RAW imaging, frame rates and modularity are some of the biggest areas where I think Epic is ahead of the game.

[David Rasberry]

Both the Sony F3 and the Alexa use single chip Bayer pattern sensors that are higher than HD/2k pixel resolution and scale their output down. You are already seeing the benefits of over sampled resolution in their HD/2k outputs.
There are not massive differences in native sensitivity and DR between RED Epic MX sensor and these cameras, they are very close to each other.
4:4:4 S-log is just a file format. Color resolution is limited by the original Bayer pattern raw sample resolution before processing, but as you can see from finished imagery from any of these cameras, Red, Alexa, or F3, color resolution at HD/2k is not a problem. Red 4k/5k Bayer raw has superior Bayer color sample resolution due to its significantly higher pixel density since Alexa and F3 are both sub 3k Bayer resolution for recorded HD format output.

[Clint Lealos]

HDRx.

[Kemalettin Sert]

http://thefilmstage.com/features/interview-director-nicolas-winding-refn-on-drive/

[leebrandt33]

I dunno man, I'm not willing to concede that Red One has a better color sample than the Alexa. Not after what I saw last night, and after watching The Great Camera Shootout 2011:
http://vimeo.com/24334733

It sounds like I'm rooting against Red, which I'm not. Far from it. They are imcredible cameras. But it is a known fact that Alexa and upgraded Sony F3 have slightly better dynamic range than Red MX. Really, I'm just speculating about needing super high 5k sensors if a 2k sensor looks fantastic, and that more DR gives sunning images. Maybe it's a matter of preference.

[Francesco Bonomo]

....or maybe the fact that there was a very good cinematographer like Newton Thomas Sigel (amongst other trivial things like directing, story, performances, etc) matters more than the tools they used?

[leebrandt33]

I meant "stunning"

[leebrandt33]

Oh, yeah he IS great. No doubt that had a lot to do with it.

[leebrandt33]

Another thing I couldn't figure out, how did they get all those slow motion shots in DRIVE if the Alexa doesn't do slow motion? Those shots looked at about 120fps to me.

[David Rasberry]

I dunno man, I'm not willing to concede that Red One has a better color sample than the Alexa. Not after what I saw last night, and after watching The Great Camera Shootout 2011:
http://vimeo.com/24334733

It sounds like I'm rooting against Red, which I'm not. Far from it. They are imcredible cameras. But it is a known fact that Alexa and upgraded Sony F3 have slightly better dynamic range than Red MX. Really, I'm just speculating about needing super high 5k sensors if a 2k sensor looks fantastic, and that more DR gives sunning images. Maybe it's a matter of preference.

Alexa has a 3.5k sensor though (2.9K sample for HD output) not 2k. Looking at HD shows on TV shot on RED and on ALEXA, RED gives up nothing in color richness or purity. I think you mistake the grading choices for what the camera can do. Slightly better native DR for the Alexa? Yes, maybe 1/2 to 1 stop. I don't place much stock in the shootout results as accurately representative of any of the cameras. Epic is significantly better than RED 1 MX too.

Who knows? Maybe RED will make a low cost 3k S35 camera to compete in the 2k/HDTV markets.

[Jake Bastian]

The color science was fantastic, or you liked the grade?
Just because a film was shot well and finished well doesn't mean it wouldn't look much better at higher resolution. Out of curiosity, have you seen a movie shot and mastered in 4K and projected in 4K or are you just coming to this conclusion based on how you imagine 4K might look projected? Maybe you didn't want any better because you've never experienced any better.

If people like Jim waited for people like us to tell them what we want then no progress would ever be made.

[M Most]

...Red, Alexa, or F3, color resolution at HD/2k is not a problem. Red 4k/5k Bayer raw has superior Bayer color sample resolution due to its significantly higher pixel density since Alexa and F3 are both sub 3k Bayer resolution for recorded HD format output.

While that is true, by recording ArriRaw on the Alexa - which many, if not most, of the features being shot with it are doing - you get, as you say, a RAW Bayer representation that is very close to 3K. How you debayer it is up to you, but you can get HD, 2K, or even 3K depending on what you want. if you choose 2K, it is an oversampled 2K just as Red is. It is only if you choose to record as HD video, be it with an external recorder or the onboard cards using ProRes 444 compression, that you are limited to that format.

[M Most]

The color science was fantastic, or you liked the grade?
Just because a film was shot well and finished well doesn't mean it wouldn't look much better at higher resolution. Out of curiosity, have you seen a movie shot and mastered in 4K and projected in 4K or are you just coming to this conclusion based on how you imagine 4K might look projected? Maybe you didn't want any better because you've never experienced any better.



I would turn that around and ask the question: have you seen the movie that the post is referring to? Because the comment was based on the fact that the original poster thought it looked great. That's not a discussion about the merits of 4K on any random picture, it's a discussion about this particular picture and how he felt it looked, regardless of its origination.

[Graeme Nattress]

Go see Samsara in 4k and tell me that resolution is not that important.... Or dig out anything shot or mastered or delivered in SD and tell me it wouldn't have looked better in HD or higher. Detail and resolution are tools for creative image makers just as light and shade and colour and every other aspect that make up an image is. As a creative, you shouldn't be asking if "resolution is high necessary?", but more asking yourself "what can I do with higher resolutions?" "What creative options does high resolutions open for me?"

Graeme

[Eric Rodemann]

The color science was fantastic, or you liked the grade?
Just because a film was shot well and finished well doesn't mean it wouldn't look much better at higher resolution. Out of curiosity, have you seen a movie shot and mastered in 4K and projected in 4K or are you just coming to this conclusion based on how you imagine 4K might look projected? Maybe you didn't want any better because you've never experienced any better.

If people like Jim waited for people like us to tell them what we want then no progress would ever be made.

At some point it's aesthetic, subjective, not "better" as in 35mm film is better than 8mm film. For the vast majority of the movie going audience, Drive doesn't need to be "better". It looks good. It's pleasing to the eye. More IQ doesn't necessarily make it "better", it just makes it more IQ, if that makes sense. At some point you're just pixel peeping, not really adding to the aesthetic. It's like saying we can make Cindy Crawford better by removing her mole.

I love what I've seen from Red cameras, and the Epic footage I've seen is stunning. But I agree that it's not important to get hung up on image resolution to the point you're just pixel peeping.

I don't think you can say, this film (or any film) would be better if it had more IQ. Another film might create it's aesthetic with more IQ, which is fine. It's ok to let films be what they are without cutting off their moles so to speak. Black Swan is shot on Super 16. Would it be better if shot on an Epic? Well, it would be a different movie, not necessarily better.

Does EVERYTHING need to be 5k? No, I don't think it does. Maybe that's not what Drive needs. Maybe it IS what Samsara needs.

[Christopher Barrett]

Seeing 4k projected at Red Studios ruined me for anything lesser. The shit is just beautiful. Aside from that, even if you're not finishing at 4k (or 5k) the flexibility of being able to push into shots considerably allows for a crapload or re-position flexibility. Also, the ability to pull decent Rez stills... DSMC... damn cool.

I dig me some 5k.

[David Rasberry]

I would turn that around and ask the question: have you seen the movie that the post is referring to? Because the comment was based on the fact that the original poster thought it looked great. That's not a discussion about the merits of 4K on any random picture, it's a discussion about this particular picture and how he felt it looked, regardless of its origination.

Haven't seen Drive yet. I don't doubt that the Alexa can produce stunning results. Game of Thrones in HD looks really great too. Seems like a lot of RED shot features have been graded with less saturated more monochromatic looks though, so people tend to associate that more with RED. Saw Contagion last weekend. It had a very natural looking color saturation to it, but with a cool slightly greenish cast to the grading, kind of like some older Kodak negative stocks. Burn Notice is a show that has bright saturated color grading that is shot on RED and one could not tell from the grade that it is a RED if one expects different results.

[Graeme Nattress]

See Muppets when it comes out - or look at Pirates 4 - very unlike other RED movies in terms of colour palette -showing the versatility. Colour palette is not determined so much by camera (unless you're shooting with a burned in colour space or black and white) but by grading (and the current grading fashion).

Graeme

[leebrandt33]

See Muppets when it comes out - or look at Pirates 4 - very unlike other RED movies in terms of colour palette -showing the versatility. Colour palette is not determined so much by camera (unless you're shooting with a burned in colour space or black and white) but by grading (and the current grading fashion).

Graeme

Yes, I saw Pirates 4. I was one of the few who really liked it :) unfortunatelly, the focus was strangely soft. Must have been the projector at the theatre I was watching, even though it's one of the best in L.A.

I reiterate that I am not suggesting that definition isn't important. Of course it is, and Red has it in spades. I was simply impressed by the amount of detail I found from a 2k Alexa film (and yes, it is 2k. It may be 3.5k acquisition, but not after debayering). This result was suprising to me since I always hear that you need higher resolution. And since it looked so great, could DR have a greater impact in image quality than resolution? Or is it simply a matter of preference?

[M Most]

See Muppets when it comes out - or look at Pirates 4 - very unlike other RED movies in terms of colour palette -showing the versatility. Colour palette is not determined so much by camera (unless you're shooting with a burned in colour space or black and white) but by grading (and the current grading fashion).


Grading is often influenced by the natural tendencies of the camera and its color processing. Although a number of pictures have "looks" that are largely the creation of post production, many more have looks that are the product of the photography and the production's visual intent. In other words, some are "created" looks and a lot of others are "conventionally beautiful" images. Both can be very true to the story being told if handled sensitively. I don't think it's fair to say that the look of, say, "Transformers" - created almost completely in post production - is any more valid than the look of, say, "The Dark Knight," which didn't even go through a digital intermediate grading step.

The original photography is usually used as a starting point by any colorist, even when extreme looks are requested and created. The natural tendencies of the earlier Red cameras and color processing were to produce a somewhat desaturated color pallette with brownish flesh tones. Over the last 2 years or so that has changed, but how the original photography presents itself can and does have a great deal of influence on where the final product winds up. Grading doesn't happen in a vacuum, and it doesn't really start with a blank slate.

[Graeme Nattress]

Alexa is 2.8k max on the pixel count - measured resolution somewhat less.... I've only ever seen it look soft in comparison to other cameras (not just RED's camera offerings) when displayed in comparison in a proper viewing environment. I'd also remember that the degree of contrast in grading has strong impact on perceived image sharpness. Commercial cinemas are often not the best viewing environment, which is a shame, especially after you see how good things can look in a good DI suite.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

The original photography is usually used as a starting point by any colorist, even when extreme looks are requested and created. The natural tendencies of the earlier Red cameras and color processing were to produce a somewhat desaturated color pallette with brownish flesh tones. Over the last 2 years or so that has changed, but how the original photography presents itself can and does have a great deal of influence on where the final product winds up. Grading doesn't happen in a vacuum, and it doesn't really start with a blank slate.

And doesn't work in isolation either - trends and fashions go through the grading side of things just as they do with all the other aspects of film-making.

Graeme

[Miltos Pilalitos]

See Muppets when it comes out - or look at Pirates 4 -

I haven't seen Muppets but Pirates 4 had the worst colour grade I have ever seen in a movie of that scale. I felt so bad when I saw it and hoped it was just because of the Stereoscopic projection or something but I saw the Blu-Ray disk 2 weeks ago and it was as bad as I feared it would be. Skin tones had an awfully unrealistic yellow hue and the whole London day scene was so bad I thought I was watching a work print!

I am not bashing my RED-MX because I know for a fact I can get excellent results but the Alexa looks like it gives you amazing colour so effortlessly. (This pisses me off actually)

:D

[Bruce Allen]

See Muppets when it comes out - or look at Pirates 4 - very unlike other RED movies in terms of colour palette -showing the versatility. Colour palette is not determined so much by camera (unless you're shooting with a burned in colour space or black and white) but by grading (and the current grading fashion).

In my opinion, the skin tones on Pirates 4 and overall look just was not as good as the previous 3 Pirates movies.

Don't know whether it is director, DP, famous colorist sitting on a yacht while his assistant does the work, some effect of the stereo (were the skies blown out for London stuff because they were worried it'd look too dark in stereo or because everything clipped?), or camera color rendition. But good heavens, it just looked plastic compared to the first 3.

Look forward to getting the Blu Ray and comparing directly to see if I was hallucinating or something.

I had had 5 glasses of wine before seeing it which might have impaired judgement somewhat... but on the other hand I got completely plastered for Pirates 2 and walked over to the movie theater with my friends - and still enjoyed the look immensely.

Maybe I should start a thread asking for everyone to send their favorite examples of good RED color so we can clear this up?

EDIT: Milatos just said the exact same thing.

OK, I'm doing a Color thread. Where should I put it? Not sure exactly which forum category it goes into, since it kinda spans them all.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[M Most]

Don't know whether it is director, DP, famous colorist sitting on a yacht while his assistant does the work....

Not that he needs defending, but the only person I know who I would say works as hard as Stefan Sonnenfeld is perhaps Jim Jannard. And while he might not have touched every frame on Pirates, Stefan has his hands in everything that has his name on it. If you or I were involved in as many massively budgeted productions as Stef is - not to mention the countless commercials he still does, and even the television programs for which he still provides his great talent for "look" creation - I think either of us would find it a pretty impossible task to be there every minute that work is being done on every one of them as well.

He may drive a Ferrari, but he hardly sits on a yacht and calls it in. Ever.

[leebrandt33]

I haven't seen Muppets but Pirates 4 had the worst colour grade I have ever seen in a movie of that scale. I felt so bad when I saw it and hoped it was just because of the Stereoscopic projection or something but I saw the Blu-Ray disk 2 weeks ago and it was as bad as I feared it would be. Skin tones had an awfully unrealistic yellow hue and the whole London day scene was so bad I thought I was watching a work print!

I am not bashing my RED-MX because I know for a fact I can get excellent results but the Alexa looks like it gives you amazing colour so effortlessly. (This pisses me off actually)

:D

Yes, I agree with the color comment. At any rate, both Alexa and Red are excellent cameras, and in my opinion are no joined by the Sony F3 s-log as the best digital cameras that give you Hollywood quality images.

[M Most]

And doesn't work in isolation either - trends and fashions go through the grading side of things just as they do with all the other aspects of film-making.

Graeme

Uhhh... OK. But I really don't understand your point.

[Mark L. Pederson]

And doesn't work in isolation either - trends and fashions go through the grading side of things just as they do with all the other aspects of film-making.

Graeme

Amen.

[Bruce Allen]

Not that he needs defending, but the only person I know who I would say works as hard as Stefan Sonnenfeld is perhaps Jim Jannard. And while he might not have touched every frame on Pirates, Stefan has his hands in everything that has his name on it. If you or I were involved in as many massively budgeted productions as Stef is - not to mention the countless commercials he still does, and even the television programs for which he still provides his great talent for "look" creation - I think either of us would find it a pretty impossible task to be there every minute that work is being done on every one of them as well.

He may drive a Ferrari, but he hardly sits on a yacht and calls it in. Ever.

Sorry to offend the Stefan.

This is one of those things where either I offend Stefan (saying he did a bad grade), or I offend RED (saying their camera's color looked bad in the hands of a brilliant colorist), or I offend the director and DP... so I'm going to just shut up and make a more positive thread here...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63551-RED-examples-of-natural-quot-filmic-quot-color&p=823620#post823620

One thing though... I remember that with Super 8, nobody can tell what pickup shots were RED and what was film (right??).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jake Bastian]

I would turn that around and ask the question: have you seen the movie that the post is referring to? Because the comment was based on the fact that the original poster thought it looked great. That's not a discussion about the merits of 4K on any random picture, it's a discussion about this particular picture and how he felt it looked, regardless of its origination.

All due respect, starting a discussion about the merits of high resolution capture on any random picture is exactly the point of this thread, hence the title: "Is resolution THAT important?" rather than "Everybody go see Drive, it looks awesome!"

The comment I made was based on the original poster's subjective opinion that the film looked great. Based on that opinion the poster suggested that 2K is good enough for any random picture. Based on that it's not unreasonable to suggest that the poster may be jumping to conclusions absent any experience with 4K projection.

And based on posts he's made later in this thread about the grades of various other films and the softness of them, it's also not unreasonable to think that the theater he's watching these films in is inconsistent at best and probably not the best place to be seeing films and coming to the conclusion that 2K and 1 extra stop of DR is all you need.

[Joe Kleber]

If resolution isn't important, then why do Hassleblads have 50 Mpixels?

If I want to see/use ultra high res print (in some cases), then why don't I want to see/use ultra high res motion? Answer: I do.

My reasons may be totally different than yours.

[Mitch Gross]

I'm not going to give any opinion on the comments here, just some factual notes on some productions referenced. I do not believe that Drive was captured in ARRIRAW. I do not know if it was captured in ProRes or if the signal went to an outboard recorder. I do know that Game of Thrones is recorded in ProRes, although I can't recall at the moment if it is 12-bit 4444 or 10-bit 422.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Of course 2K looks like crap compared to 4K!

I think it takes quite a bit of training or experience watching 4K to see the difference reliably.

... an analogy.

Most consumers have a hard time telling between 720p and SD. Of course ... most of them see primarily 1080p upscaled DVD and 1080i/720p cable/DTV.

We don't because we work with real 1080p+ sources all the time.

The guys at Red think this is so obvious because they go into work every day and see 4K. Even when I am working with Red 4K or 5K footage, the best I ever see is usually 2.5k (2560x1440 monitors)

[M Most]

I'm not going to give any opinion on the comments here, just some factual notes on some productions referenced. I do not believe that Drive was captured in ARRIRAW. I do not know if it was captured in ProRes or if the signal went to an outboard recorder. I do know that Game of Thrones is recorded in ProRes, although I can't recall at the moment if it is 12-bit 4444 or 10-bit 422.

That's interesting about the feature.

As far as television, every television show I know of that's shooting Alexa is recording using ProRes 4444 on SxS cards. It would surprise me if Game of Thrones or any other show is doing anything else. Now, how they handle that in post is a very mixed bag, with some reconforming from the ProRes files, and others (more than you want to think) going into Avid at DNxHD115 and staying there, bypassing a conform altogether. Horrifying but true.

[Tim Whitcomb]

I haven't seen Muppets but Pirates 4 had the worst colour grade I have ever seen in a movie of that scale. I felt so bad when I saw it and hoped it was just because of the Stereoscopic projection or something but I saw the Blu-Ray disk 2 weeks ago and it was as bad as I feared it would be. Skin tones had an awfully unrealistic yellow hue and the whole London day scene was so bad I thought I was watching a work print!

I am not bashing my RED-MX because I know for a fact I can get excellent results but the Alexa looks like it gives you amazing colour so effortlessly. (This pisses me off actually)

:D

FWIW - We have had a RED MX and ALexa on the SAME SHOOT recently and all we had to do to match the ALexa was use a 1/8 Digicon filter. It was insane really how identical they looked on a color accurate monitor after we dropped that Digicon in fron of the MX. I am guessing Alexa uses some sort of low con filter internally to achieve their signature look, its MOSTLY a TV camera that goes straight to Prores... so creating a WYSIWYG look, makes sense

To original poster... do yourself a favor and go visit Red studios hollywood and have them demo 2K and 4K for you. In that context, its hard to get excited about 2K... especially when you walk up close to the screen.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm not going to give any opinion on the comments here, just some factual notes on some productions referenced. I do not believe that Drive was captured in ARRIRAW. I do not know if it was captured in ProRes or if the signal went to an outboard recorder. I do know that Game of Thrones is recorded in ProRes, although I can't recall at the moment if it is 12-bit 4444 or 10-bit 422.

Thanks for the info Mitch!

IYO does the Alexa have a colorimetry advantage over the Epic?

Because I'm usually stunned with the colors that the Alexa puts out, they are very soothing and classy.

[Mitch Gross]

Anonymous and Hugo Cabaret were both shot very on early on, well before RAW or ProRes was enabled on the camera, so I believe both were recorded in HDCAM SR on SRW1 decks. ProRes was enabled about a year ago and RAW in February. All of the ALEXA features thus far released were not been captured in RAW, including Mr. Popper's Penguins and Prom.

Just some stats here guys. There's tons of big work being shot on REDs as we all know. And there are a large number of ARRIRAW features on the way. What will be the most interesting will be the projects that mix the two, as will inevitably happen. There will likely be post work to make them each look like the other, but the fact is that they will be mixed and it is likely that no one will know which shots are from which when looking at the finished product.

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks for the info Mitch!

IYO does the Alexa have a colorimetry advantage over the Epic?

Because I'm usually stunned with the colors that the Alexa puts out, they are very soothing and classy.

Sorry, I'm not going to get into that discussion here. It would be rude -- this is REDuser. AbelCine sells the ALEXA, as well as cameras from Sony, Panasonic, Aaton, etc., and we rent them all as well, including the RED One-MX and the EPIC. Each has its place.

[Eston Diaz]

Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better!
Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better! Red is Better!

The answer to all the comparison questions ever asked!

This is "REDUSER.NET" what do you expect?

Of course this is our opinion. Mine at least! It has been said a million times, spend less time choosing your weapons and more time mastering them.

I chose Red. Mastering will take me the rest of the time.

[Zack Birlew]

As some of you may know from what I've said in the past, I sort of lost my original beliefs about resolution after seeing RED footage, Alexa footage, RED/5D Mark II mixed footage, and straight mixed DSLR footage altogether during NAB last year or so. You can do so much with just 1080p but it all simply depends on the artist and the material. Look at "Superman Returns", looks amazing on a strict filmmaking standpoint, and it was all 1080p. Could they have done better with RED or even film? Probably, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference just watching it as the style of movie it was. The 5D Mark II episode of "House" is still a very excellent example of how resolution can matter very little in the grand scheme of things, even epic dramatic material. Do remember, whole features have been made on SD cameras that simply looked great, couldn't really tell the difference, and it was all because of the cinematographer using their limited tools with the best of their knowledge as artists and technicians.

It's very easy to say "Yes, we need to make every movie in 4K or on 35mm" but the reality is that many movies could have easily gone with 1080p for their shooting format, to most it's just an aesthetic or quality issue and to some a matter of production value. The digital age has really sort of leveled things off in a lot of ways, especially now when compression is no longer much of an issue.

Now, does that mean 4K+ isn't that important? By all means, no! Recently I worked on a film that used a RED MX and there were several shots that were adjusted from wide and medium shots into closeups. This is an area that higher resolutions excel in and can really save your tail in the editing room. 1080p material can only go so far but the drop to 720p or less starts to become very noticeable, very quickly. Visual effects also benefit from higher resolutions as they always have. It's a benefit to have 4K+ material but, as I've said, it all comes down to the artist and the material. I'm glad the OP mentioned "Driver" was filmed on an Alexa, I hadn't known that before and, to sum up my point, I thought it was a 35mm show when I saw the trailer in theaters! :thumbup1:

[Eston Diaz]

Content is King. But Red is still better.

[Eston Diaz]

http://vimeo.com/11192521

I'll admit I'm a little biased. SF is my home.

[Jannard]

If you are watching 2K in a theater from 1080P or 2K origination it looks like X. If you see 2K in a theater from 4K or 5K downrezzed, it looks like more resolution than X. If you see 4K in a theater... it is not close. Many have done side by side tests and viewed on a 40' screen to see the difference before selecting EPIC (vs. all other 1080P and 2K cameras). What we usually hear is "can you focus the projector?" when the 1080P files hit the screen.

The additional question is... "what happens when 4K is the home standard?". You can't pretend that 1080P is 4K.

BTW... I love "Game of Thrones"... but it looks soft on my 12' home projection screen.

Jim

[Jake Bastian]

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had 4K monitors with standardized color and gamma, so we could watch trailers posted on youtube or clips posted on vimeo and have it mean anything at all for this type of conversation. (Of course RED will have to license out R3D so we can stream 4K at a decent rate too).

[Mark Toia]

I personally don't care what I output to, 1K, 2k, 4k, I just like having ridiculously clean 5k resolution to play with, so I can re-frame without hesitation at anytime any shot. I want a tight shot from a mid lens.. I can do it. I want to slide to the left and reframe, I can.
Just to make my edits work even nicer...
I like having the freedom after I have shot to change my mind. :)

Projecting 4k is just a huge plus for me and it's future proofing my investment.
1920x1080 HD took over 720x576 NTSC/PAL over a very short time frame for mastering. You don't think 4k will do the same to HD...

You can't do this with a HD camera.
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/JUNK/Resolution.jpg

[Detlev Eller]

... once audiences are watching movies in 4k / hdrx™ as a standard ... the lesser footage will be experienced as such - a lesser quality experience.

... right now, there is no frame of reference and everyones eye is trained to perceive the fullHD / 2k theater projection as "full" ....

that´ll all change.

... even VHS looked cool, once ... hehe .... :-)

[Eston Diaz]

Currently setting up 4 monitor cheat for full 4k images, til the rest of the industry wakes up.

But, you can still notice a difference in After Effects CS5 workscreen on a 27 inch monitor.

[Jannard]

We agree with Arri... 4K (4 times the resolution of 2K) is better.

Jim

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1316419828.jpg

[Eston Diaz]

LOL! Nice! Its like you know what your talking about or something! You may have a future in this one day. LOL.

[Jannard]

Additionally, there is a feature film being released (shot in Germany) that is being advertised as shot with the Alexa. Truth is, all the VFX plates were shot on a RED ONE MX for reasons you might imagine.

Jim

[Jake Bastian]

Additionally, there is a feature film being released (shot in Germany) that is being advertised as shot with the Alexa. Truth is, all the VFX plates were shot on a RED ONE MX for reasons you might imagine.

Jim

:-)

[Eston Diaz]

A picture is worth a thousand words. If its a Red picture x4.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Right!!!

But Arri decided to make its money with "muddy waters" of Alexa 2K/1080p resolution just because with that resolution

they can get big enough pixels (or photo-sites) to achieve native 14 stops of DR and with that try to sell it easy to the worlds best cinematographers.

What Epic would need promptly is also native 14 steps of DR with new sensor

and also additional "rotary shutter" module that can be attached in front of Epic sensor to eliminate CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.

Already I repeated this request a couple of time here.

The competition already have it, Sony F65 (4K) , Alexa Studio (2K) and upcoming Aaton Penelope Δ Delta (4K).

That's all (it's my favorite quote from Meryl Streep (aka Anna Wintour) at The Devil Wears Prada (2003).

[Eston Diaz]

Mercalli $100 plug in or CS5.5 Warp Stabilizer. Could eliminate 90% of Rolling Shutter problem. Just saying.

[Jannard]

Sanjin... stop driving me crazy... :-)

We offered a mechanical shutter program and didn't get one email of interest. All we needed was 10 orders at $40K each, it would still put EPIC at less money than any of the competition. Please send us your deposit and we'll get right on it... assuming we get 9 more.

Jim


Right!!!

But Arri decided to make its money with "muddy waters" of Alexa 2K/1080p resolution just because with that res they can get big enough pixels (or photo-sites) to achieve easy native 14 stops of DR and with that try to sell it easy to the worlds best cinematographers.

What Epic would need promptly is also native 14 steps of DR with new sensor and also additional "rotary shutter" module that can be attached in front of Epic sensor to eliminate CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.

Already I repeated this request a couple of time here.

The competition already have it, Sony F65 (4K) , Alexa Studio (2K) and upcoming Aaton Penelope Δ Delta (4K).

That's all (it's my favorite quote from Anna Wintour at The Devil Wears Prada (2003).

[Detlev Eller]

... i have come to the conclusion (a long time ago) ... i let RED work on the technical details and focus on the rest ... :-)

[Jannard]

We just figured out we had a competitor posting here as a "ghost". His account was terminated.

Jim

[Detlev Eller]

? ... :-)

[Eston Diaz]

Damn, Really. Kind of amusing. But the new change in policy helps.

[Clint Lealos]

Let me guess... the OP of this thread? That is what I was thinking when I first read his/her post. Smelled like troll :)

[Eston Diaz]

It seemed like a dumb question to ask on here of all places. Homie should've known we're 4k freaks! "Is resolution that important?" Come on! Get outta here with that BS! Go buy a Bloggie!

[Liam Hall]

We just figured out we had a competitor posting here as a "ghost". His account was terminated.

Jim

Lol. That was the first thing I thought when I saw his OP. No one had responded at that time and I was going to answer, "Great first post. How long have you worked for ****?", but decided not to!

[Detlev Eller]

Additionally, there is a feature film being released (shot in Germany) that is being advertised as shot with the Alexa. Truth is, all the VFX plates were shot on a RED ONE MX for reasons you might imagine.

Jim


... which leads us to the question .... Why wouldn´t any producer / director in his right mind decide on shooting the whole movie as such .... ?


... especially coming from a post / value creating / finishing perspective ....
It makes no sense to accept anything lesser than 4k ....

... which i figured already in the later 90´ies when doing "creative" print post production ...
every pixel matters, every pixel counts.

no matter how small the final printed result is (as both in offset or film) ... the finer grid of pixels allows for finer subtle changes in color and make composites and "creative looks" work ...

... and the better the "digital master", the better all compression algorithms work.

So, i am in to shoot even my web movies on epic ... hehe ... :-)
let me just focus on the "other details" for a moment ...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin... stop driving me crazy... :-)

We offered a mechanical shutter program and didn't get one email of interest. All we needed was 10 orders at $40K each, it would still put EPIC at less money than any of the competition. Please send us your deposit and we'll get right on it... assuming we get 9 more.

Jim


Sanjin... stop driving me crazy... :-)

We offered a mechanical shutter program and didn't get one email of interest. All we needed was 10 orders at $40K each, it would still put EPIC at less money than any of the competition. Please send us your deposit and we'll get right on it... assuming we get 9 more.

Jim

Jim I totally agree.

But also RED should try to drive crazy the competition just with the same things that they are doing right now.

It's simply to offer rotating shutter for $40.000 to anybody who would need it.

The examples of the prices from Alexa Studio and Sony F65 at the pictures below:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/alexa_studio_prices.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/SonyF65_prices.jpg

It's all a big game but if you don't enter in time also can be possible to loose it at the end.

[Eston Diaz]

I always knew Red was the way to go. But I lagged on the equipment side and concentrated on the Directing/Writing/Acting side at the time. When I finally started to acquire equipment and run some test edits. Some thing as simple as motion tracking or stabilizing a shot, I saw HD wasn't enough. Not to mention 4K just looks Sexy!

[Detlev Eller]

... most people work in a set of compromises and justify it in all kind of ways.

Some don´t.

When Ted came to Rome, to present the EPIC prototype, i drove down 200 miles on my last cent, just to say hi and see "the thing" coming alive ...
... that we agreed we´ve been waiting to happen for the last 20 years!

great memories ....

... at the end, personally, i dont care to much if ARRI or SONY or CANON or whoever is making a 4k camera ... it´s only good news ... lol ....


With the ONE and EPIC, RED has answered my dreams from the later 90´ies ...

RED are the first that got it.
i believe in originators, problem solvers, mad scientists .... ;-) .... not in the copy cats.

Farewell, ghost ... hehe ...

[Sergio Perez]

well, 85K and 100K pricing is completely ridiculous. Say what you want about Pirates 4, but as a cinema audience member I thought it looked good and was on par quality wise to everything big budget Hollywood shot digitally until now.

This type of elitist pricing is just absolutely ridiculous. I'm glad Red came into the market with a 17.5K Red One. And I'm glad that with that and the Red revolution Sony went from 150K to 100K. But please Red, lately your prices have only gone up. I couldn't afford a Red One back then, but could afford a 17.5K camera now. Please remember were you came from Jim and Jarred. Please remember that you were in the indie filmmaker world before. And please give us that tool that will truly democratize filmmaking.

The camera we want is later this year. We hear you. But make sure you revolutionize the sub 20K market like you did the high end one. Canon is coming, and while I would love to go Red, my budget is limited. The EPic is the camera I want, but I just can't get it.

Please make that "explosion" something truly revolutionary not just for the Epic M or X crowd!

[Jannard]

If you want a mechanical shutter, it looks like the Sony is a way better deal. Our future releases will address something much different.

Jim


Jim I totally agree.

But also RED should try to drive crazy the competition just with the same things that they are doing right now.

It's simply to offer rotating shutter for $40.000 to anybody who would need it.

The examples of the prices from Alexa Studio and Sony F65 at the pictures below:

It's all a big game but if you don't enter in time also can be possible to loose it at the end.

[Eston Diaz]

One thing I think people forget. Red is dedicated to the filmaker and photographer. To all the other Companies, filmaking, and photography is a novelty market. Just another demographic. Look at all the products they offer and are working on. Not only that, Red created products that exceeded the standard years ago, and they offered it for a tenth of the cost of the nearest competitor. I sound like I work for Red, I know. I don't.

But I work with a small group of filmakers, and we function off of the same workflow. So "Yes" I had to sell why we needed to make Red the weapon of choice. Plus I ain't rich so I have to know that my money is well spent. Clearly I know it will be. Stick a fork in it! This thread is done!

[Jannard]

Apparently PJ, Soderbergh, Fincher, Schwartzman, Wolski, Ridley Scott and a ton of others agree with you. Not one of them has asked for a mechanical shutter. Imagine that.

Jim


One thing I think people forget. Red is dedicated to the filmaker and photographer. Look at all the products they offer and are working on. Not only that, they created products that exceeded the standard years ago, and they offered it for a tenth of the cost of the nearest competitor. I sound like I work for them, I know. But I work with a small group of filmakers, and we function off of the same workflow. So "Yes" I had to sell why we needed to make Red the weapon of choice. Plus I ain't rich so I have to know that my money is well spent. Clearly I know it will be. Stick a fork in it! This thread is done!

[Eston Diaz]

LMAO! Honored you quoted me.

[Jannard]

Try IMAX-ing with 1080P.

Jim