Cold shooting...

[Jannard]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help. Warm it up. Rule of thumb, if you need something to keep you warm, so does RED. Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Any recommendations on how to warm it up in those situations? Turning the fan off, taping over the vents, applying heat pads [to the top or sides... is one area better than another?], etc?

Or just choose your own adventure using common sense and camera logic?

[Shawn Nelson]

Good to know Jim, thanks.

How difficult would it be to get the engineers to display the actual current internal temp? That way, at least once you got it up, you could tell you were getting too cold (or too hot on the flip side) and work to compensate (more warm packs, etc.)

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Any recommendations on how to warm it up in those situations?

Just like you would warm up your Chihuahua: Propane torch.

[Brook Willard]

How difficult would it be to get the engineers to display the actual current internal temp?

Oo, that would be nice. A temperature gauge [or - if degrees are misleading - some other form of finer measurement. A "temperature unit," if you will.] instead of the "Temp OK" light?

That's not to try and concern people ["holy crap, the camera's at 75 units and 80 units is considered hotter than normal... I need to cool the camera even though it's a completely normal day and shooting situation and the camera will really handle itself fine!" - you know it'd happen] but to keep the nerds like us overly informed.

My sub-thoughts are getting too complicated.

[Shawn Nelson]

Oo, that would be nice. A temperature gauge [or - if degrees are misleading - some other form of finer measurement. A "temperature unit," if you will.] instead of the "Temp OK" light?



Precisely. Still keep the green-yellow-red construct but make those colors the color of the text (to reassure people that 75 is still okay).

It's not about being geekily overinformed, it's about being confident you are keeping the camera cold/hot enough. If it keeps dropping you'll know to call for more hot pads before your camera dies!

[Charles Perkins]

The f900 might be 0C, but I’ve seen it boot up and be used for a long period (90mins plus) in temperatures around -10C. I wasn't using it my self nor was I part of the crew. But I happened to be sat a few meters from it as I was watching the same event. It didn't look like it had any special warming stuff on it.

[Darren Orange]

If the camera is on and the fan is off and vents taped over will the camera produce enough heat to maintain a temperature that will allow it to operate?

[Jannard]

This is pretty practical stuff. If the camera won't boot, it won't display anything. Warm it up until it turns on. Not rocket science. The only comfort is that it performs like all other high-end digital cameras. We aren't alone. For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

This is pretty practical stuff. If the camera won't boot, it won't display anything. Warm it up until it turns on. Not rocket science. The only comfort is that it performs like all other high-end digital cameras. We aren't alone. For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim

Yes I know, but my idea is for once you have it on, helping us make sure it stays on.

[Rick Darge]

Jim, what do early adopters get for buying that Red-propane stove?

[Steve Sherrick]

Working on a solution for this that will be least time consuming on set. I've got some people on it, but it may be that the solution we come up with is similar to what the folks at this company already do. http://www.customupholsteryproducts.com/html/heater_barneys.html

If that's the case, no need to go any further. I just have to see what the people I'm talking with can come up with.

Steve

[Brook Willard]

Precisely. Still keep the green-yellow-red construct but make those colors the color of the text (to reassure people that 75 is still okay).

It's not about being geekily overinformed, it's about being confident you are keeping the camera cold/hot enough. If it keeps dropping you'll know to call for more hot pads before your camera dies!

I still think that it would take some element of idiot-proofing... even if it's in the manual.

The setup for my point is complicated. Envision a 0-100 unit temperature scale. 0-20 is too cold, 21-40 is chilly, 41-60 is fantastic, 61-80 is toasty and 81-100 is hot.

Lets say that the camera handles itself fine from 15-85. It'll either use its fans or its thermal output to keep itself happy enough to shoot.

The smart user sees a value of 20 or a value of 80 as "getting close" to a potential problem. They observe the gauge, see a problem area coming and prep the heating pad or cold pack. This is great and is what I'd hope the reaction would be to this theoretical temperature gauge.

The less-than-smart user interprets a 0-100 scale and deems 50 to be the best value ever. He assumes that anything over 50 is too hot and anything under 50 is too cool. In doing so, he preempts the camera's internal temperature management system by heating or cooling the camera when it was more than capable of doing so on his own.

Then he comes to the forum talking about the temperature problems he had. No matter how hard he tried, the camera kept going to 40 or 60 instead of sticking at 50 like he "knows" it should. The fanboys on the forum lose it and the thread becomes unpleasant. Several good points are made, but in the end it's FUD vs. FAN and the thread is locked.

Word spreads [through his ACs, his rental house and his thread] and the preexisting "RED temperature issue" [which has already been FUDding its way across the industry since the alpha days] gets blown even farther out of proportion.

People who don't know what they're talking about hear about these problems and assume that the camera is doomed. Those who work with the camera for a living are left to constantly hold people's hands to assure them that there really isn't a problem... but it's always in the back of everybody's mind. It sets world peace back by a decade and the worldwide cow population is halved overnight.

Hence... the idiot light. In my made up temperature range scenario, the camera would show green from 15-85, only turning to red or blue in the over- and under- ranges. That's approximately what we have today [obviously my temperature units are completely made up and I don't honestly know what goes on under the hood behind that "Temp: OK" light.]

It's silly, but somebody somewhere would be that uninformed and unfortunately certain of their own convictions and fears. I get the idiot light.

But I so want a temperature gauge.

[Paolo Tinari]

Come shoot in Italy! Where chihuahuas run free all year long

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Now that´s what I need for my next project: naked chihuahuas.....

[Paolo Tinari]

Now that´s what I need for my next project: naked chihuahuas.....

naughty naughty...

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Today it´s -6C here, which is very normal for this time of year - and my RED will see MANY shooting days in this temperature or colder, Good thing I already have a propane torch!

[Ken K]

How difficult would it be to get the engineers to display the actual current internal temp? That way, at least once you got it up, you could tell you were getting too cold (or too hot on the flip side) and work to compensate (more warm packs, etc.)
Don't worry, Shawn. I'll bring my candy thermometer on your next outside shoot and we can just remove one of the body screws and insert the metal probe. Should work like a charm! :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks for your attention to this, Jim!

I'd also like to see a temperature gauge or read-out of some kind on the camera. It would be useful in both hot and cold environments to let us know if what we're doing is good enough or if we need to take action (more heat, more cooling, etc..). Obviously, if the camera is in the cold and won't boot, then we'll have to warm it up to boot and see that temperature read-out, but it would be a welcome feature.

I'm a dog lover, but I know one certain Chihuahua over which I'd rejoice over if he froze to death. Hehe.. His owner too.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Don't worry, Shawn. I'll bring my candy thermometer on your next outside shoot and we can just remove one of the body screws and insert the metal probe. Should work like a charm! :)

Don't insert the probe too far into that screw hole.... We all know what could happen. If you're not sure, just ask MANNY. :whistling:

[sander kamp]

Is it known why the camera doesn't start up when it is too cold? Any particular component that needs to be warm?

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The problem mostly is not the cold, you can preserve cameras and lenses from that, the problem is the difference between warm and cold, the condensation, first you get condensing water on lens or electronic, then you get foggy lenses and then iced waterdrops. So, my advice is: keep the camera always at the same temperature, let's say arround 0 as Jim mentioned, that should work quiet well.

[dalemccready]

will the double pot method of boiling cameras come in handy here?

[Nils Ruinet]

Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

On the paper, yes.
But as many people stated, they will boot and work fine even under much much colder conditions.
I used a JVC HDV camera in the cold siberian winter (-30°C at least), shooting outside for hours without any real protection, at it worked flawlessly. Didn't have a single drop... Booted fine. At the beginning I had a protection for the camera, but it was really unpractical. I soon found out it worked fine without it, so I just removed it.
From what I read here it's the same for the bigger Sony cameras.

So what's different with Red ? There is no tape, so much less moving parts, CF doesn't seem to be the issue as it seems to work better in the cold (see other thread). So what's the component that doesn't like cold ?

Maybe someone could make a small and lightweight heating device that would plug into the air vents and blow hot air directly into the camera body to heat it up quickly ?

Come on, with all the clever guys working at Red, don't tell us you can't improve that...:weight_lift:

[Oliver Koeppel]

For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim
I would prefer the Chihuahua red action pack, branded and if available: can I have it in 4k?????????

[Oliver Koeppel]

but being seriously. Did I get something wrong or didn´t you use a peltier for cooling down cmos?
reverse polarity on peltier and you will have an red integrated heater.

Is there any other camera in the world you can use to warm up your Chihuahua?

[Paul Leeming]

Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim
Killer has always liked you. :)

http://www.visceralpsyche.com/misc/web_images/Hiro_and_Killer_visceralpsyche.jpg

Cheers,

Paul

[Nils Ruinet]

but being seriously. Did I get something wrong or didn´t you use a peltier for cooling down cmos?
reverse polarity on peltier and you will have an red integrated heater.

Nice idea. Yes, Jim mentioned using a Peltier device.

From wikipedia :
"Because heating can be achieved more easily and economically by many other methods, Peltier devices are mostly used for cooling. However, when a single device is to be used for both heating and cooling, a Peltier device may be desirable. Simply connecting it to a DC voltage will cause one side to cool, while the other side warms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

So at least in theory this might help...

[REDHKSC]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help. Warm it up. Rule of thumb, if you need something to keep you warm, so does RED. Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim

I have seen Human diving in the COLD WATER !!! Why not a Machine ? -5 degree C. It's a Joke to me for now and future !!!

May I say When RED die we are still alive in the Coldest Ice.......

Anyway RED one is a winner over Panasonic 's newest Card based Camcorder ( ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/brochures/B_AJ-HPX3000.pdf ) is just can only handle :

Operating Temperature: 0 °C to 40 °C (32 °F ro 104 °F)
Keeping Temperature: –20 °C to 60 °C (–4 °F ro 140 °F)
Operating Humidity: 10 % to 85 % (relative humidity)
Operating Time: Approx. 120 min., when using DIONIC90 battery

Best regards,

STEWART
HKG / CHINA

[Babu Kantamneni]

Working on a solution for this that will be least time consuming on set. I've got some people on it, but it may be that the solution we come up with is similar to what the folks at this company already do. http://www.customupholsteryproducts.com/html/heater_barneys.html

If that's the case, no need to go any further. I just have to see what the people I'm talking with can come up with.

Steve
very interesting website!

[Joe Vinson]

Hey Jim, if my reservation on the RED propane stove isn't ready by summer, can I have a 20% discount?

[Stephen Williams]

This is pretty practical stuff. If the camera won't boot, it won't display anything. Warm it up until it turns on. Not rocket science. The only comfort is that it performs like all other high-end digital cameras. We aren't alone. For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim

Hi Jim,

Many film cameras have built in heaters.

Stephen

[Jan Reiff]

don´t worry. i have some amazing beautiful female cameraoperators here, the camera will be get hot automatically when these girls touch it.

[Brent J. Craig]

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help.

Jim, this makes no sense to me. Red has no hard drive and presumably no moving parts other than fans. The electronics in my car 'boot up' just fine at -40C. The film cameras with which Red will be competing work quite well down to -40C also.

I understand that some LCD's don't like the cold and would expect the display on the back of the cammera to be sluggish until the internal heat warms it up, but what else is going on to cause the problems?

Could you explain the technical reasons why cold should be a factor at all with this camera?


My goal is to work with you guys to make this camera bulletproof. Clients won't appreciate me calling them the day before a shoot saying we have to switch cameras because of the weather forecast!

Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go. Saying it's a California-weather-only camera won't cut it. How can I help?

PS: It's -9C outside my window right now.

[Michael Brennan]

A couple of observations.
Given the beta nature of RED it is hard to pinpoint a problem when you are on set and with just one camera.

Taking three reds into a walk in freezer and doing some tests for a few hours would be a worthwhile exercise ASAP.
The V2 REDs of course not the betas.

Most video cameras don't have a problem with extreme cold or heat ie -10 to 120 degrees F and SLR cameras also work in extremes.
So it is likely RED will solve the cold issue (if it exists on all cameras) and the heat issue (which does exist on more than one beta cameras).

f900 and XDCAM and Panasonic cameras are hot to the touch at the top of the camera. They have heat sinks and ventilation grilles on the top.

Could a Red owner invert the camera and see if it eliminates overheating?


In an ideal world testing the next batch of RED v2s over 4 more months would be a more complete testing programme that could potentially deliver better than industry standard operation.

I hope RED can wait so that solutions to the heat and bootup issues do not require hardware changes to +1000 cameras.


Mike Brennan

[I Bloom]

Good to know Jim, thanks.

How difficult would it be to get the engineers to display the actual current internal temp? That way, at least once you got it up, you could tell you were getting too cold (or too hot on the flip side) and work to compensate (more warm packs, etc.)

Great thinking.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Last winter I had a Sony HDV camera (tape!) in -25 celsius for hours. The camera was fine, it was the Manfrotto remote that was acting up.

Jochen

[Henk van den Doel]

We've used a HDX900 in -10 Celcius and had no trouble at all. I understand there are limits to what can be expected, however certain standards have been set in the past and I guess we expect these standards of future gear as well.

I don't like the thought of insecurity whether the camera will deliver usable files (i.e. non-corrupt ones) if I don't keep the camera up a certain temperature. It's equipment and all equipment can fail at any given moment, however we need the gear to be as reliable as possible. When I have that certain shot on camera and I am positive we recorded it, it should be there when we open it up in post.

Also, I don't see myself running into an animal in harsh conditions, carefully putting down the camera, and asking the beast to sit still for a few more minutes until my camera has defrosted with the heatpacks..

So if possible, improvement would receive a warm welcome here and we appreciate any efforts :)

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Last winter I had a Sony HDV camera (tape!) in -25 celsius for hours. The camera was fine, it was the Manfrotto remote that was acting up.

Jochen

We just have to reshoot Fassbinders Querelle, and we won't have any heating problems ;-)

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Uh, uuuuh.... I´d be scared to death.......;-)

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Jim, what do early adopters get for buying that Red-propane stove?

I recommend this small stove for Red in location :
http://www.factorydirect2you.com/dewarefanhes.html

[Jonas Rejman]

RED is already addressing the problem:

REDtorch (http://actiongirls.com/actiongirls-b-h-scenes-zemanova-2008-large.jpg)

Certified for arctic regions (-30C/-10F).

Works on camera and crew.

[Erik Rangel]

RED is already addressing the problem:

REDtorch (http://actiongirls.com/actiongirls-b-h-scenes-zemanova-2008-large.jpg)

Certified for arctic regions (-30C/-10F).

Works on camera and crew.

WOW She's HOT....ok I'm leaving:tongue:

[Kyle Mallory]

Jim, this makes no sense to me. Red has no hard drive and presumably no moving parts other than fans. The electronics in my car 'boot up' just fine at -40C. The film cameras with which Red will be competing work quite well down to -40C also.

I posted this a while ago...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89097#post89097



Could you explain the technical reasons why cold should be a factor at all with this camera?

Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go. Saying it's a California-weather-only camera won't cut it. How can I help?

PS: It's -9C outside my window right now.

Again, this isn't an issue of condensation, or moisture, or moving parts. Its about the environmental limitations of the actual electronics, which are generally rated to about 0c for commercial grade electronic components, and -40c for industrial grade.

In the end, it sounds like RED may have chosen commercial-grade components for the the FPGA, Imaging Sensor, etc. I can't blame them, it would have brought the cost of the camera up substantially.

To say that the camera isn't a viable rental option is a bit extreme. Most, if not all, commercial-grade digital cameras have this same limitation, including the F23, F900, Dalsa, D-20, HVX200, HLX1, etc, etc. It may not be as robust in the cold as an Arri 435, but once again, the wide-held notion that RED is a 100%, complete replacement for 35mm film, is, well, wrong.

I do think that the possibility of using the Peltier chip as an internal heater is an interesting notion. The only potential problem is that the chassis was probably designed to cool, not to heat. Ie, the Peltier chip is probably close to the exhaust vents. Simply reversing the polarity and heating it would probably quickly overheat the CMOS, unless the fans were on, in which case, you'd probably end up pulling more cold air over other components on its way to the heater.

Not that its not possible, but it may not be as easy as we want to believe.

[JD Holloway]

!
Red One will not be a viable, rentable, workhorse of a camera until it can go everywhere an Arri 435 can go.
.

Agreed. There are always issues with temperature and technology. Good ACs have workarounds or equipment to help aid.

Several have been mentioned....
Fan speed selection, vent closure/blockage, Hot Shots.

Others proposed...
Custom fab. heat covers., new internal heaters etc.

And ways of monitoring...
Idiot light, thermal gauge, sticking your trainees tongue to the aluminium body..

Hopefully we can make this work. If you own a camera currently, be a tester. Find out if/when your camera fails and report back and technique used to test it. Hopefully Red will have some answers if we generate repeatable numbers.

[jbeale]

Red isn't rentable? Wait a minute... I'm pretty sure I have seen mention on this very board of more than one Red having been rented already... was I mistaken? I've heard the Genesis doesn't work in cold weather either, are those ever rented?

(Update: Finner reports the Genesis works at -35 C, so my info was wrong.)

If you mean, "rented by people who assume it is precisely like a film camera (or XXX other camera) in every respect" (and won't listen when told otherwise) then I'd agree, it is not rentable.

What I've always been told is the difference between 0 C "commercial" and -40 "industrial" chips is testing. Meaning there is only one chip manufacturing line, but one group of chips is actually tested at cold (takes time = $$) and the rest are not. If most or all Reds have cold-temp issues, then I'd guess the problem may not be chips, it's more likely various other components.

For example, some high-value ceramic capacitors are especially troublesome when cold. A capacitor with Z5U dielectric is spec'd to loose over half its value even at +10 C. A Z5V cap may go down by 85% at -10 C. (Designers aiming for a -30 C spec would never use those parts, of course, that is just an example.)

I have no idea what Red's development process is like. At the last company where I worked in electronic circuit design, we always got the product working on the bench as a first step. Then we put it in the temperature chambers and found out what went wrong over temp. (usually just a few things needed to change). It's actually more complicated because you are dealing with probabilities. It is very expensive to make SURE that all product will work at -30 C, for example, but it is much easier to make it VERY LIKELY to work.

After that, we did the damp-heat lifetime test with the chamber at 85 C, 85% RH to find out what happens long-term, and we discovered some more issues to address. All this took time of course. We wouldn't have done the expensive 85-85 test if the customer hadn't required it.

I think, perhaps, Red is currently at step one only.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

[Sean R.]

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

that was pretty lame...

[Shawn Nelson]

I want to put in a reservation to have Kelly come with me on any cold weather shoots, she is so hot all I have to do is keep her near the camera and all is well :cold:

[TWEEEEET]
*Blatant hitting on a Red employee, that's a loss of 2 'Red Internal Favor' points for you!

[Steve Freebairn]

Ok, maybe this is a dumb idea, but kind of like the breakout box that sits on the sides, couldn't a plate (kind of like the beachtek DXA-6 XLR audio device) sit underneath the red between the tripod plate and the camera (this could be ared accessory, because it would sell to a lot of people here who shoot in colder temps than my freezer can do). Essentially, it would be a heater that covered the vents and it would push out warm air that would circulate through the existing vent holes and it would have a temperature guage in it so that if the recirculating air got to warm, it would stop warming the air until it cooled down again.

So if I wasn't clear, it would be a plate the width and length of the camera and it would have a fan and a heating element in it that would be used to recirculate warm air through the vent holes of the camera. It could also have a temp guage on it to show what the current air temp was that was flowing through the camera. The device would be powered from the aux. power out on the camera.

[Dalibor Fencl]

I didn't get this issue. I've always heard electronics works better in lower temperatures. Especially the sensors that tend to be hot therefore more noisy.
Absolute zero temperature = no noise at all.

[Finner]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help.
Jim

Hi Jim

I have shot extensively with sony 900/950 versions, verri cams and other panasonic cameras (heck even the cheap HVX), genisis and vipers all in conditions below -35c at times. No problems booting up or recording. So maybe the manuals say 0c but they still work at extreme cold. Heck I have no problem if red rates the camera at 0c but it still works at -35c to -40c like the others do.

I totally understand if we need to do a warmer work around plan with the red camera like you mention (cover, hot packs...) but if that is the case a gauge is a must. It seems like the camera is overly sensitive to cool or warm weather and has dificulties if not operating within those limits. Haakon has brought up on the red square thread problems he has had in slightly warm weather. I see the first step in being able to keep the camera reliable would be a precise wide calibrated temperature gauge that apears in the EVF, LCD and HD outputs(for display on cranes, rusian arms...). This way the camera team can judge how the camera is doing and prevent major problems before they happen.

By the way Haakons overheating problem sounds like it may be an isolated issue with his camera, that or just a good cold weather performer! Either way we all are aware that heat can also be an issue so a temperature gauge is really needed.

You and your red team have overcome and improved on many issues since first releasing the camera and I have total confidence that these problems will also be fixed. I look forward to future information on reds repair and solutions to this issue.


I've heard the Genesis doesn't work in cold weather either, are those ever rented?


Sorry you got bad information. Read above.

[Zach Hilton]

Ok, maybe this is a dumb idea, but kind of like the breakout box that sits on the sides, couldn't a plate (kind of like the beachtek DXA-6 XLR audio device) sit underneath the red between the tripod plate and the camera (this could be ared accessory, because it would sell to a lot of people here who shoot in colder temps than my freezer can do). Essentially, it would be a heater that covered the vents and it would push out warm air that would circulate through the existing vent holes and it would have a temperature guage in it so that if the recirculating air got to warm, it would stop warming the air until it cooled down again.

So if I wasn't clear, it would be a plate the width and length of the camera and it would have a fan and a heating element in it that would be used to recirculate warm air through the vent holes of the camera. It could also have a temp guage on it to show what the current air temp was that was flowing through the camera. The device would be powered from the aux. power out on the camera.

Possibly. My only concern is I wouldn't want it raising the center of gravity too much, which shouldn't be too hard to do since essentially it's just a small plate/cover with small electronic components. That would be interesting, and better than having to heat it up by other means.

[Todd Anderson]

If the Chihuahua has the sweater on, couldn't he just rub his paws all over the Camera until it gets up to working temperature? What else do you have the Chihuahua on the set for?

[Brent J. Craig]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

[Rick Darge]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

a red pro??? What the hell am I paying $35k for?! A fischer price toy?

[Zach Hilton]

All of these kludgy external ideas such as heaters and barneys seem like band-aid solutions.

I don't want the powers that be to think we will be happy to watch the thermometer and put hats and mittens on our work tools. It's a recipe for disaster and another stumbling block towards the acceptance of Reds.

If there is a thermal problem, I hope Red will fix it.

Maybe it's time to start talking about a Red Pro with higher-spec components, professional connectors, broadcast quality outputs, etc. The people who need it would pay.

Well, as Jim said, "to expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help." They may seem like band-aid solutions, but it is a fact of the techmology. Excessive heat or cold aren't the best conditions for electronics. I'd much rather be in the sweet spot of operating temperatures 99% of the time than try and fit into every unique and special condition that a simple "band-aid" solution would solve anyway.

[Brent J. Craig]

a red pro??? What the hell am I paying $35k for?! A fischer price toy?

If there were compromises made to enable the Red body to be sold for $17,500 I am suggesting that users with more critical requirements could be offered a more robust unit at a premium.

$17.5K is nothing to a rental house. That's what an Arriflex mag or videotap costs. If people are happy shutting down their shoots to coddle the camera, let them. If others need absolutely reliability, they could pay for it. Their seems to be a very two-tiered community here on the message board between indie/low-budget users and those with high-end needs, why not build a camera for each of us?

Maybe it will eventually be a non-issue, but at least we have the people at Red thinking about the problem.

[fightordie]

What film cameras don't need to be heated? All pro 35mm cameras have heated barneys for cold weather and they are used when they shoot in the cold weather. And more specifically certain cameras have different gearing oil put in the cameras if they are to be taken to cold environments. No camera is free of this issue so why should RED be. Someone will make a heated blimp for the red and that will be the solution.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have shot extensively with sony 900/950 versions, verri cams and other panasonic cameras (heck even the cheap HVX), genisis and vipers all in conditions below -35c at times. No problems booting up or recording. So maybe the manuals say 0c but they still work at extreme cold. Heck I have no problem if red rates the camera at 0c but it still works at -35c to -40c like the others do.

Sony says down to 0C in their specs. Sony support contracts (around here anyway) will gurantee and support down to -30C / -22F.

I've used Varicam at -20F at night, cold started it at -20F. I've used HVX200 extensively down to -25F. My Cartoni Focus head froze and failed at -22F or so, but the HVX200 still kept on ticking doing a timelapse sunrise. :)

[chuck colburn]

Electrict barneys have been around for many years.

[Brook Willard]

that was pretty lame...

You must not know Blair that well... :wink: :)

[jbeale]

Sounds to me that up to and including today, Jim has been figuring that 0 C is as cold as the camera needs to handle on its own. Probably based on his personal requirements- southern California doesn't get super cold often. I gather Red has always been a fairly personal project for him. This may be the first time the needs of many pro shooters have really diverged from what his own needs / wants seem to be. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Their seems to be a very two-tiered community here on the message board between indie/low-budget users and those with high-end needs, why not build a camera for each of us?

I didn't realize that wanting to use a camera in common winter temps around town without tons of special warming gear or heated blimps or taking time indoors to warm it up so it will boot, constituted a "high-end" need. Especially since a $5000 HVX200 handles it all just fine.

I can understand the need for extra gear and precautions at severe temperature extremes (-25F and colder). But 0C doesn't cut it and if I have to put a RED in a heated blimp just to shoot my kids in the driveway with new bicycles on Christmas day, then... "Houston, we have a problem..."

Here's what my backyard looks like right now: 1:15PM 24F -4C ...Have a nice day.
http://www.appliedvisual.com/images/backyard24f.jpg

[Steve Sherrick]

very interesting website!

Actually it was Jim Logan who pointed this site out. Seems like two solutions available currently for treating this problem.

Design a barney that fits the Red camera precisely and uses either the warm packs or electrical heating components. I've been siding on the electrical components, using low voltage battery source, but others have made good arguments for warmers. But until some other solution surfaces, I believe these are going to be the solutions and are typical in extreme weather conditions. The question right now is whether the Red Camera is underperforming in this category compared to other cameras both film and HD. If it is, then that's something to talk about and there's a need to discuss the issue and find a solution quickly, which I'm sure Red will do.

Steve

[Brent J. Craig]

What film cameras don't need to be heated? All pro 35mm cameras have heated barneys for cold weather and they are used when they shoot in the cold weather. And more specifically certain cameras have different gearing oil put in the cameras if they are to be taken to cold environments.

I have used Arri 435's and 535's in the Canadian Rockies at -40C. No barneys, no covers, no special treatment other than nice warm batteries.

The biggest rental houses in Canada do not even have heated barneys for these cameras. The camera techs I asked would not switch them to a winterized oil and said it was unnecessary with modern cameras.

Winterizing cameras seems to be something that has gone out of favor with the current generation of gear. Panaflexes may be a different story.

[R. Gonzales]

We will have a temperature spec soon. Until then, the Sony 900/950 is 0 C (32 F) as is the Genesis.

To expect the RED camera to boot in -5C is not reasonable without some help. Warm it up. Rule of thumb, if you need something to keep you warm, so does RED. Would you take you Chihuahua out in this weather without a sweater? If the answer is no....

Jim

Mr. Jannard I respectfully submit that Sony's 900/950 published Temp Spec has a built in safety margin. I have used those cameras in cold weather -10 / -15 without problems, and they have moving parts. And as far as my Chihuahua, well...

Method

[Rick Darge]

I didn't realize that wanting to use a camera in common winter temps around town without tons of special warming gear or heated blimps or taking time indoors to warm it up so it will boot, constituted a "high-end" need. Especially since a $5000 HVX200 handles it all just fine.

I can understand the need for extra gear and precautions at severe temperature extremes (-25F and colder). But 0C doesn't cut it and if I have to put a RED in a heated blimp just to shoot my kids in the driveway with new bicycles on Christmas day, then... "Houston, we have a problem..."=

Seriously.. This problem really bothers me but what bothers me more is that Red is shrugging off the problem and offering band-aid solutions. I'll wait another 6 months for my camera if that's what it takes.. But I don't want to invest in this system just to have the camera develop a reputation amongst clients that it is unstable. I know the camera is amazing and has an amazing picture for the price point BUT clients won't give two shits if problems like this aren't fixed or addressed. I can hear it now, "I'm not renting that thing.. it doesn't work in the cold.. etc." If it can't be fixed then maybe Red can enlighten us on the problem and why their camera doesn't perform in temperatures where the Sonys and the Panasonics perform just fine.. I mean, we were told that this beast is bulletproof right? Do heroes needs scarves when they go out in the snow? GODDAMN NO!

[fightordie]

I have used Arri 435's and 535's in the Canadian Rockies at -40C. No barneys, no covers, no special treatment other than nice warm batteries.

The biggest rental houses in Canada do not even have heated barneys for these cameras. The camera techs I asked would not switch them to a winterized oil and said it was unnecessary with modern cameras.

Winterizing cameras seems to be something that has gone out of favor with the current generation of gear. Panaflexes may be a different story.

Well I have worked dozens of features and when cold comes around the heated barneys come out in the east coast US. Maybe my frame of reference are Panavisions. Maybe its not needed and its the ac trying to make sure that nothing is left to chance. Just because there has never been a problem in the cold doesn't mean its problem free in the cold. All you need is that one time. I mean if Jim were to get the thing to have more tolerance in the cold would that make it problem free and something you don't have to worry about anymore? Would you take the chance? Put the Barney on and you're as safe as you can reasonably get when big money is at stake.

[Finner]

Well I have worked dozens of features and when cold comes around the heated barneys come out in the east coast US. Maybe my frame of reference are Panavisions. Maybe its not needed and its the ac trying to make sure that nothing is left to chance. Just because there has never been a problem in the cold doesn't mean its problem free in the cold. All you need is that one time. I mean if Jim were to get the thing to have more tolerance in the cold would that make it problem free and something you don't have to worry about anymore? Would you take the chance? Put the Barney on and you're as safe as you can reasonably get when big money is at stake.

I've worked many many big budget arri and panavision features and commercials in the Canadian rockies (coldest ever went below -50c) never one time have I had to put a barney on the body for warmth.

[Sean R.]

You must not know Blair that well... :wink: :)

Just for the record that was Jarred posting from my computer. But it was pretty lame:usd:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Seriously.. This problem really bothers me but what bothers me more is that Red is shrugging off the problem and offering band-aid solutions.

Well, I think RED is working on it now or at least looking into it. It's one of those things that a few of us kept asking about since, well, ..the beginning. I'm under the impression that RED completely under-estimates the demand for cold-weather usage.

I don't know if it's the time of year, winter in the northern hemisphere or, the massive following these couple cold-related threads have generated, reports of camera failures in temperatures approaching freezing, or what. But it looks like RED is finally acknowledging that people do need to shoot with their cameras in cold air.

I have confidence in RED. They are aware of the issue and I'm sure that a workable solution will be presented.

BTW: I wonder where Gibby is at. He shoots tons of EFP style projects all over the place. I'm sure he has an opinion on this.


I mean, we were told that this beast is bulletproof right? Do heroes needs scarves when they go out in the snow? GODDAMN NO!

I've never even owned a scarf. :)

[Paul Hazlett]

For an extra $1000 we'll include a propane stove to pre-warm the RED ONE. :-)

Jim

This is awesome a red propane stove!!! does it do 2k or 4k?, degrees that is, are the handles carbon fiber or steel? and can I order the accesorry cookout set now or do I have to wait for the stove to ship?

[fightordie]

http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20GB/WINTER.HTM

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=20087

And top of page 537;

http://books.google.com/books?id=4jSyo46SSwEC&pg=PA511&lpg=PA511&dq=panavision+and+cold+weather&source=web&ots=7X3uzUbp2R&sig=GsNG2xopmSftB4dqzjyrjoWyVh4#PPA537,M1

[Lauri Kettunen]

I have confidence in RED. They are aware of the issue and I'm sure that a workable solution will be presented.

Sounds good, although what has been said so far does not quite match. The temperature of -5C should not be a problem for booting/electronic devices.

It's in fact hard to think of any portable device which did not run just fine in cold although the specs are typically only to temperatures above 0C.

[Adrian T.]

Sounds to me that up to and including today, Jim has been figuring that 0 C is as cold as the camera needs to handle on its own. Probably based on his personal requirements- southern California doesn't get super cold often. I gather Red has always been a fairly personal project for him. This may be the first time the needs of many pro shooters have really diverged from what his own needs / wants seem to be. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.

Exactly my thoughts.

Just wanted to add my concerns abount not being able to boot the camera below 0 C.

I really hope that this problem will be addressed. Hey, even Sony and Panasonic can do it!

Jim, come on, where's your perfectionism? :wink:

[Colin Hubick]

After some problems this past weekend, I chatted with Jarred about some precautions to shooting in cold weather. One suggestion was a cover for the camera, and some hot pockets to keep the camera warm.

Last night in approx -20C weather I spent about 3.5hrs outside with the camera enclosed in a porta brace camera cover, but opted not to use the hot pockets. The camera worked perfectly with no issues at all, and all the footage was exactly as I shot it.

[Henk van den Doel]

That is good to hear, thanks for the update. Can you give it some more testing by giving it a few true cold starts someday?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The only problem with hot pockets and what not is heating a camera via external means is very inefficient. Optimally a small 12v heating block inside is the best solution.

I was thinking about some sort of attachment to go over the grill and blow in hot air myself. But am concerned it would interfere with the tripod.

Maybe what we need is a little meshed tray in the CF Card reader module. Pull it out put a few hand warmers in it and slide it back down into the camera. :)

[David Battistella]

After some problems this past weekend, I chatted with Jarred about some precautions to shooting in cold weather. One suggestion was a cover for the camera, and some hot pockets to keep the camera warm.

Last night in approx -20C weather I spent about 3.5hrs outside with the camera enclosed in a porta brace camera cover, but opted not to use the hot pockets. The camera worked perfectly with no issues at all, and all the footage was exactly as I shot it.


Thanks for the update. This is very encouraging news and appreciated.



Was the problem on the original footage ever solved?

Was it just because the camera was cold or was it a combination of things? IE: weather + firmware build, etc?

David

[Tony Lorentzen]

Turkish director Nuri Bilge Ceylan probably won't be shooting the RED if this heat/cold issue isn't addressed. This guy will surely pull the camera through the elements...

http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi7.jpg (http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi7_hires.jpg)

http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1.jpg (http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1_hires.jpg)

Both pictures are production shots from his movie "Iklimler" ("Climates" in english). Shot on the F900.

Not having the camera work at 0c is unacceptable if it requires more than a cover (here in denmark at least). -20c is something else...

[Dalibor Fencl]

Jesus, where have you red it won't work at 0C? It's getting bit hysterical here.

[Rick Darge]

dalife check out the few threads that have been popping up

it's the end of the world as we know it

[Brook Willard]

The worldwide cow population was just halved by this thread.

[Dalibor Fencl]

At the very beginning of the thread is stated the camera might have a problem with booting below -5C.
It's bit different to not working at all below zero.
And there is at least one report here it was already working -20C.

[ChrisLyon]

I'm sure I'll always have a vehicle to use while booting. It doesn't seem as much a disappointment to scripted productions as much as it might be to documentary shooters.

[Greg M]

Even with a script...going to your car to boot is a bit strange huh?

Chris, it gets below 0c at least 2 times per year down here and I dont want to be climbing in my car on those two days :)

[R. Gonzales]

So what's different with Red ? There is no tape, so much less moving parts, CF doesn't seem to be the issue as it seems to work better in the cold (see other thread). So what's the component that doesn't like cold ?

Maybe someone could make a small and lightweight heating device that would plug into the air vents and blow hot air directly into the camera body to heat it up quickly ?

Come on, with all the clever guys working at Red, don't tell us you can't improve that...:weight_lift:

I doubt it is about being clever, based on Jim’s response it's probably more about politics and cost.

Base camera price 17500.00 USAD, Red has already recalled 100 cameras and is currently updating all the new unreleased ones. At their expense (shipping included).

Some reservation holders are bitching that delivery is taking too long. Red has invested???? Dollars into the project and need to see some kind of a return even if it's a small one; they are a business after all. We all need Red to be profitable or they'll go away (that cant happen).

Now we have the cold boot / operation situation, what should they do? Stop the manufacturing of further cameras and recall the ones already shipped. Replace redesign affected parts, disappoint more reservation holders because shipping is taking too long and people can't wait any longer.

Or

Give the camera a temp rating, with a band-aid solution like use a blowtorch. Continue development and when they are ready to release version 2 of the Red One with new sensor and DSP they deal with temp issue and you can send version one of the camera back for an upgrade (at your cost).

I don't know shit this is just my imagination going crazy. Personally I can wait for my camera; I have no immediate plans for it until it's in my hands.

IMO the camera need to boot in cold weather without wrapping and heat pads, blowtorch and the innards of Chihuahuas (check "Empire Strikes Back).

And finally since broadcast is 1080 we need a 1080 solution, hell the Viper is only 1080. But I can wait for that too. But the cold boot... Way more important.


Respect to all who read this.



Method

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well politics or no you could argue that testing climate performance 2 weeks before shipping is cutting it a bit close...

[ChrisLyon]

Even with a script...going to your car to boot is a bit strange huh?

Chris, it gets below 0c at least 2 times per year down here and I dont want to be climbing in my car on those two days :)

Booting a camera at all is a bit strange to me. :P

But yeah. It would be good to not have to. A solution will arise. Someone smart will create a non-obtrusive heat-pack carrying Red Pack that will simply velco onto the body near the fans pushing warm air into the camera.

[R. Gonzales]

I posted this a while ago...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89097#post89097

Most, if not all, commercial-grade digital cameras have this same limitation, including the F23, F900, Dalsa, D-20, HVX200, HLX1, etc, etc.

Hi Kylemallory,

Your kidding right? I've worked many nights in the freezing cold with some of these cameras (F900, HVX200) and never had a boot problem or an operation issue.

Would you explain further? Did I misunderstand you?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

And it's...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=53574&postcount=29

not...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=571

like...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135

it...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1392

snuck...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3170

up...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=62046

on...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=78684

them...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75199

without...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76771

warning...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=530312&postcount=241

[jbeale]

Now we have the cold boot / operation situation, what should they do? Stop the manufacturing of further cameras and recall the ones already shipped. [?]

I know I don't have a vote. But if I did, I'd say ship 'em as-is and work out the temp. issues down the road a bit. My understanding from this forum is that every other (modern) pro cine gear works and cold starts at -35 C with no protection or warmup. Right now, reports are that at least some and maybe all Red cameras will not do that.

Ok, so you need to keep the Red within a more comfortable temp. range. That is a convenience factor if you live in a colder climate, it may rule out certain types of winter wilderness shooting, and it's definitely not a bragging point for Red vs. Almost Any Other Known Camera.

But meanwhile, there's a lot of non-frozen, approximately room-temperature shooting that is waiting on soon-to-be-shipped reds. ...been waiting for some time now.

[ChrisLyon]

Can someone take some pictures of the fan vents on the bottom of the red, please? I'm up for designing something tonight. Too bad there are no reds in tow for me to really try to get one to fit. I'll have to just whing it until I can get in kahutz with someone or ship it off once it's made.

Better yet, if the Red Team had any plastic models or something that one could use for designing such a heat pack....

[R. Gonzales]

But meanwhile, there's a lot of non-frozen, approximately room-temperature shooting that is waiting on soon-to-be-shipped reds. ...been waiting for some time now.

jbeale,

Your lucky, personally, I'd rather wait. No sense in bringing a camera up to the north and telling my client, "oh, wait a minute will ya I gotta get the camera out of the Chihuahua's ass. :pinch: :w00t:

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Method

[Finner]

I know I don't have a vote. But if I did, I'd say ship 'em as-is and work out the temp. issues down the road a bit. My understanding from this forum is that every other (modern) pro cine gear works and cold starts at -35 C with no protection or warmup. Right now, reports are that at least some and maybe all Red cameras will not do that.

Ok, so you need to keep the Red within a more comfortable temp. range. That is a convenience factor if you live in a colder climate, it may rule out certain types of winter wilderness shooting, and it's definitely not a bragging point for Red vs. Almost Any Other Known Camera.

But meanwhile, there's a lot of non-frozen, approximately room-temperature shooting that is waiting on soon-to-be-shipped reds. ...been waiting for some time now.

I wouldn't speak so fast. I see you are in the SF-bay area and I heard of a red that shut down and had problems due to mildly cool weather last month on a commercial in the SF-bay area.

Is that something you really want?

[Finner]

Turkish director Nuri Bilge Ceylan probably won't be shooting the RED if this heat/cold issue isn't addressed. This guy will surely pull the camera through the elements...

http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi7.jpg (http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi7_hires.jpg)

http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1.jpg (http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1_hires.jpg)

Both pictures are production shots from his movie "Iklimler" ("Climates" in english). Shot on the F900.

Not having the camera work at 0c is unacceptable if it requires more than a cover (here in denmark at least). -20c is something else...

That is one top notch camera crew you got there!

The first picture kills me. The AC is actually cleaning the lens with a bunch of bounty paper towels. If the paper towels did not clean the lens well I have some sandpaper he can borrow. Don't worry its 220 grit and brand name quality so it should be safe on the lens also!:) :)

I hate using the smiley faces but I could not help it with this one. That is one of the funniest things I have seen in a while.

[David Battistella]

I can't imagine what causes this. Power ON. What's the problem?

Maybe this is another good reason to have a "sleep" mode on the camera.

I also believe that this is getting blown way out of proportion. The user who originally posted the problem and concern in the other thread has since had very successful shoot day in even colder weather with a portabrace case over the camera. This does not seem unreasonable.

So few shoots have been done it's hard to determine how big a problem tis is. Or is it a big problem that is not talked about much. It's hard to tell.

David

[R. Gonzales]

And it's...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=53574&postcount=29

not...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=571

like...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135

it...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1392

snuck...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3170

up...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=62046

on...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=7677

them...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75199

without warning...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=530312&postcount=241


Your absolutely right. Time for Red to buy that walk-In Fridge.

Method

[R. Gonzales]

I can't imagine what causes this. Power ON. What's the problem?

Maybe this is another good reason to have a "sleep" mode on the camera.

I also believe that this is getting blown way out of proportion. The user who originally posted the problem and concern in the other thread has since had very successful shoot day in even colder weather with a portabrace case over the camera. This does not seem unreasonable.

So few shoots have been done it's hard to determine how big a problem tis is. Or is it a big problem that is not talked about much. It's hard to tell.

David

David I don't think this has been over blown. Check out

im.thatoneguy
Senior Member

"And it's...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...4&postcount=29

not...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=571

like...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135

it...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1392

snuck...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3170

up...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=62046

on...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=7677

them...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=75199

without warning...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...&postcount=241"
__________________

This has been a concern from the very beginning and many have asked about the red's ability to work in temperatures.

A cheap HVX200 works in -20C˚ without any problems or PortaBrace or hand warmers. Shouldn't a camera that has a base price that is at least three times the cost of an HVX200 work in cold temps (0 to -20C˚)? By the time the Red Camera is fully outfitted, your looking at a minimum of 30K. The Camera should work in cold temps.

Respectfully

Method

[Rick Darge]

For such a cold topic, this is a hot thread!

Yea I'm awesome

[Shawn Nelson]

As an engineer, I don't feel it's acceptable for a product such as this to not boot in temps below freezing. What is causing this? I know there's a temp that LCDs freeze at, but anything above that should be fine. At my day job, we do extensive environmental chamber testing in sub-freezing temperatures on items that cost less than half what Red is.

Back at NAB, I asked one of the Red employees if the Red had yet done environmental testing. His answer indicated to me they hadn't and had no plans to. Well, now this pops up.

[Steve Freebairn]

I'm not saying this shouldn't be fixed, but for all those really experienced people out there (I'm not claiming I am, but one day hope to be)

1. -40 Celsius is really really cold, would you really take an f900 without a cover or anything to protect it from wind or water in that temperature? I'd imagine that the camera would be either covered in ice or dripping wet. I know there are places where it is just cold and very dry, but even then, I'd imagine you'd have an Artic bag.

2. From what I've read and heard, it sounds like the f900 and others put off tons of heat and have more issues on the other end of the spectrum, the 110+ F temps. Would a device less than an inch thick that essentially became like a second camera bottom, really put that much of a cramp in your style?


I'm thinking of something that is shaped just like the current base of the camera that is bolted on and then provides additional warming.

[ChrisLyon]

I think it should be fixed, but designing something would be easier, by far. If this bar can keep condensation off of CCTV lenses, it should be warm enough to jump start the Red, right?

http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ModuleNo=37665&doy=search

Or hell, a modified Domino's heat wave bag could work.

[jbeale]

I heard of a red that shut down and had problems due to mildly cool weather last month on a commercial in the SF-bay area.

Surprising and disappointing news. Was cold confirmed to be the issue in this case? So far this season the SF bay area has barely reached 0 C at the coldest (eg. 5 am, at least near sea level, probably colder in the hills). I believe that would be the warmest "cold problem" yet reported. Can there be other factors in play? Confusing, when Hubickc reporting hours-long operation with an unheated cover at -20 C http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=120789#post120789

I think everyone wants the camera to work reliably and conveniently. If there is a defined "good" temp range that is convenient to provide (eg. a simple cover outdoors for weather cold enough to need gloves) I'd think many people could work with that. Without having any actual numbers to go on, this kind of report is obviously a worry. It's just hard to get a good understanding of the situation from the few and very different reports we've heard so far.

[Brook Willard]

I'd wait for confirmation on that one. If it's one of the two shoots I'm thinking of, cold wasn't the problem in either case.

[Jannard]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.

[Shawn Nelson]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.

Fantastic! Herein lies the strength to Red, Kaizen, constant improvement

[Brook Willard]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold.

http://www.globalbydesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/thatwaseasy_en.jpg?

:)

[ChrisLyon]

damn... right as I was finishing my mockup too....

http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat1sm.jpg (http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat1.jpg)

http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat2sm.jpg (http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat2.jpg)

http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat3sm.jpg (http://www.perennialmedia.com/redrelay/images/redheatpack/redheat3.jpg)

This, of course, would have been a powered heat system much like that of a pizza delivery bag. But, I suppose the Red team is hot on the trail.

[Rick Darge]

That's awesome Chris

[Shawn Nelson]

ah Chris, I like it! hmm, could you make covers for the ports? If you expanded it slightly it could be a base-functionality rain droplet/dirt protection device.

[Chris Parker]

Wow, how my emotions swung over the course of reading this WHOLE thread at once for the first time.

From Jim's surprising 'deal with it...' opening to his familiar 'we got your back...' closing, and everything in between.

My thoughts. It is totally lame IF RED did not work well at a paltry -5 C. I mean, honestly. Sure, other cameras are rated at 0C, but ALL of them work fine at up to -15 (an average day in Canada for 4 months of the year). Okay, so if it didn't work at -30C I would understand, but IF the case is, piss poor functionality at -5C, lame.

BUT, find a fix. Sounds like Jim et. all are already onto something. Great suggestions such as an internal temp. gauge are a great solution. Pair that with a custom-made heated barney, and maybe a half-decent camera assistant would be able to keep it running no matter the temp (unless he is busy with his Bounty paper towels).

And EVEN if the camera didn't work in the cold, it would not make it 'un-rentable'. Just un-rentable for outdoor winter shoots. Would still be totally fine in 80% of the countries in the world, and even in Canada, would be fine for f/x shoots in studios, or for 8 months of the year. But it would still be lame.

Which is why I hope out of this giant problem comes a great solution, either by RED themselves (sounds like it is on it's way) or from someone within the community. That's why this place is great.

Bottom line, us Canadians can't even win a Stanley Cup anymore, so at least give us a camera that works in the cold....

[ChrisLyon]

If you expanded it slightly it could be a base-functionality rain droplet/dirt protection device.

It could be. I shall set out to cut up some old messenger bags and whip out the sewing machine (yeah... i've got one... all those home made diffusers from back in the day and whatnot). This could easily be made for $50 with some items from hobby lobby. I should have some free time next week.

I'd need some help with dimensions, though. Maybe you could take some cloth and drape it over the red to get some dimensions for me to work with. You know, find the length the material will need to be to make an inverted cradle over the top of the camera? And then the length from the back of the camera to the front of the body minus the lens mount?

[Shawn Nelson]

It could be. I shall set out to cut up some old messenger bags and whip out the sewing machine (yeah... i've got one... all those home made diffusers from back in the day and whatnot). This could easily be made for $50 with some items from hobby lobby. I should have some free time next week.

I'd need some help with dimensions, though. Maybe you could take some cloth and drape it over the red to get some dimensions for me to work with. You know, find the length the material will need to be to make an inverted cradle over the top of the camera? And then the length from the back of the camera to the front of the body minus the lens mount?

I would, but my Red is out of the country right now!

[ChrisLyon]

I would, but my Red is out of the country right now!
Argh! No worries. Maybe someone else could oblige?

[Finner]

1. -40 Celsius is really really cold, would you really take an f900 without a cover or anything to protect it from wind or water in that temperature? I'd imagine that the camera would be either covered in ice or dripping wet.

At that temp wet or water is not a variable.


We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.

Thats great news. A temp gauge to help a person regulate before problems would stll be really helpful though.

[Jannard]

This time we are guilty of not taking the complaint seriously enough (maybe we were just too busy trying to finish cameras?). We had tested to 0 C and figured we were the same as the rest. But after listening more closely (that's why this forum is here) we stopped what we were doing to take a good look. And we found that we can do better. Now remember that there is a limit as to how well we can do here, but we have some real room to improve. And we are on it.

In the meantime, someone suggested a camera bag worked for them... keeping the cold air away from the inlets also helps. But like I always say... "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs"

Jim

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.

Like I said, I may have done a lot of whining in these threads, but I have complete confidence in you, Jim, and the rest of the RED team.

Thank you! Can't wait to learn more.

[Finner]

Surprising and disappointing news. Was cold confirmed to be the issue in this case?

From what I know yes. All of a sudden your not so ready for red to ship out the camera as they are anymore. Funny how when it directly effects you it is all of a sudden an important issue.

As for warmest cold problem I don't think that one is the winner. I think if I remember right it was a German (some Europe country) that first reported problems. His were between 0 to +5c and the camera not booting up about 2 or 3 weeks ago.


I'd wait for confirmation on that one. If it's one of the two shoots I'm thinking of, cold wasn't the problem in either case.

Not your shoot Brook.

[ChrisLyon]

In the meantime, someone suggested a camera bag worked for them... keeping the cold air away from the inlets also helps.Jim

Aight then. Now I'm really building this bag.

[RED,BLUE&GREEN]

Just to chime in. Maybe the specs on a Sony Camera is 0 (c). But I have shot many times in below zero temp with Sony HD cameras without any problem. -10 to - 20 f. Sony HD cameras will preform fine in very cold...-10 to about 125 without any problems. Im sure Red will design to follow suit. The Sony lower end xdcam shot a timelaps shot all night at --25 to -30 degrees while filming the Idiarod in Alaska.
l

[David Battistella]

Bottom line, us Canadians can't even win a Stanley Cup anymore, so at least give us a camera that works in the cold....

LOL. This is so true. The last two homes for the cup: FLORIDA and CALIFORNIA.

[David Battistella]

This time we are guilty of not taking the complaint seriously enough (maybe we were just too busy trying to finish cameras?). We had tested to 0 C and figured we were the same as the rest. But after listening more closely (that's why this forum is here) we stopped what we were doing to take a good look. And we found that we can do better. Now remember that there is a limit as to how well we can do here, but we have some real room to improve. And we are on it.

Jim


Jim,

This is the best part of the way RED is structured. People are heard. Thanks for being candid and for being humble enough to listen to us.

This kind of response is rare in this business and I, for one, appreciate it.

How else can we help (test) in these Northern climates?

What do you want to see/know?

David

[Jannard]

Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

It's after 10 and he's still working like a madman. I love having an obsessed leader :-)

[ChrisLyon]

I envy having the time to do that. If working for Red were my job....

[David Battistella]

Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

Coolio.
ha ha.

Keep an eye on the weather network in Toronto and I am sure we might be able to convince someone to help with anything you need. :)

Not as cold here as Edmonton (just ask Jarred).

David

[David Battistella]

It's after 10 and he's still working like a madman. I love having an obsessed leader :-)

ditto.

david

[GlennChan]

http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1.jpg (http://www.nbcfilm.com/iklimler/photos/kameraarkasi1_hires.jpg)


So uh... who's monitoring the audio? :help:

That shoot looks like fun though. :)

[Steve Sherrick]

Jim,

Is this potential solution you guys are working on a firmware issue or hardware?

Steve

[jbeale]

If it won't even complete a bootup stage when cold (eg. firmware hasn't started running yet) I can see where that might be hard to fix in firmware! Bootloader code doesn't usually turn on heaters, etc. But who knows.

[Steve Sherrick]

Just out of curiosity, I checked the temperature range of my SD 744 audio recorder and it's rated at 5-55° C. This may be irrelevant but the connection for me is the recorder is a cross between an audio device and a computer, just as the Red Camera is a cross between camera and computer. The coldest temp I have had it in is about -10°C. Seemed to work okay. Hottest was about 40° C and again it worked fine. So I think these specs are guidelines with some headroom. I would think the same would be true of Red. Operates best when it's between 0-40° C but should still run at reasonable extremes such as -20 to 50° C.

Steve

[Casey Green]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.


This time we are guilty of not taking the complaint seriously enough (maybe we were just too busy trying to finish cameras?). We had tested to 0 C and figured we were the same as the rest. But after listening more closely (that's why this forum is here) we stopped what we were doing to take a good look. And we found that we can do better. Now remember that there is a limit as to how well we can do here, but we have some real room to improve. And we are on it.

In the meantime, someone suggested a camera bag worked for them... keeping the cold air away from the inlets also helps. But like I always say... "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs"

Thanks for really listening - I was a bit concerned at first, but it looks like RED again puts the customer first.

Jim


Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

You know, we all expect a photo now. :wink: seriously.

[Casey Green]

We found something that should dramatically improve booting and shooting in the cold. We are always working to fix issues that come up, no matter what the competitive landscape looks like.

We'll keep you posted on the progress.


This time we are guilty of not taking the complaint seriously enough (maybe we were just too busy trying to finish cameras?). We had tested to 0 C and figured we were the same as the rest. But after listening more closely (that's why this forum is here) we stopped what we were doing to take a good look. And we found that we can do better. Now remember that there is a limit as to how well we can do here, but we have some real room to improve. And we are on it.

In the meantime, someone suggested a camera bag worked for them... keeping the cold air away from the inlets also helps. But like I always say... "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs"

Jim

Thanks for really listening - I was a bit concerned at first, but it looks like RED again puts the customer first.


Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

You know, we all expect a photo now. :wink: seriously.

[dino g]

if anyone cares i have posted a new thread with a case study of shooting in the cold from a shoot we did yesterday.

it can be found at http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6610

[Adrian T.]

Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

Thanks for listening! :biggrin:
That's why we love you all! :love:

[Jannard]

It's after 10 and he's still working like a madman. I love having an obsessed leader :-)

10pm... it is early! Ask me a question at 3am... well, maybe not.

Jim

[Gavin Greenwalt]

:biggrin: Operation Community Whine has been a success. Good work everybody. Same time same place next time there's a problem.

[Jannard]

It does seem to work. The reality is that we are listening so we can fix every issue that comes up. That is the only way we will be in business next week. We have things in the works that will blow your mind. But we also need to take care of "now".

Jim

[Ken K]

We can "create Canada" in the test room.
Wow, you guys have igloos and bags of milk in the test room? :)

[Poi Boy]

beauty ehh ?
-A

[R. Gonzales]

It does seem to work. The reality is that we are listening so we can fix every issue that comes up. That is the only way we will be in business next week. We have things in the works that will blow your mind. But we also need to take care of "now".

Jim

Yes Jim,

I agree with you 100%, If your going to do something do it right the first time.

I personally can wait for the next mind blowing news From the Red camp after the camera has been perfected as far as it can go until new sensors and DSP's are introduced.

Thanks for listening.

Respectfully

Method

[R. Gonzales]

Wow, you guys have igloos and bags of milk in the test room? :)

Probably not, but we could send them some of our famous home grown to help them relax.

Wait, Wait... I meant BEER, good strong home grown Canadian BEER :tongue:



Method

[Chris Parker]

Wow, you guys have igloos and bags of milk in the test room? :)

Funny. When I was in college, we used to do 'bucket tokes' all the time. When we cooked 'em up super big, the smoke was so thick inside the bottle, we called those ones 'bags o' milk'.

your post reminded me of this....

[Brent J. Craig]

Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

I've got lots of nice Canada right outside my window here. Save your money and just let me test them for you, eh? :-)

Seriously though Jim, this camera has become our baby as well and many of us are on here asking the hard questions so you guys will build us the tools we need. Your dedication, as always, is encouraging.

[David Battistella]

...this camera has become our baby as well and many of us are on here asking the hard questions so you guys will build us the tools we need. Your dedication, as always, is encouraging.

True DAT!

d

[Colin Hubick]

Now that you have our full attention... we can take it from here. We can "create Canada" in the test room. I'm going to go get my Oakley jacket as we speak...

Jim

We have a whole lot of Canada up here, that is ready and willing to try your tests :-)

[Videoteque73]

Make the Red One able to dring coffee!!!

[Isaac Babcock]

Holy Moly!

I spend one day in the field and the "Cold Forum" errupts...

Pretty much everything has been said here already, so I just wanted to add my "Thank you RED Team/Jim for addressing this"

It gets cold out here, leave your Chihuahua at home...but I hope to bring my RED. Please, may it minimally boot at -25F....