EMERGENCY: Broken pin on CF Flash Module

[Arnaud Paris]

Has anybody been experiencing bent or broken pin on the CF flash module?
We're in the middle of a shoot in Lyon France and we just saw that one of the pin has been slightly bent. We put it back straight and it seems to be ok but what if the pin brakes later during the shoot?
Arno
www.locared.com

[Greg M]

call Red Support

[Brent J. Craig]

Well that's why we need access to an emergency kit with spare parts:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=115584#post115584

[Rainer Fritz]

we had the same problem at our shooting. you have to be extremely carefull with the slot... I recommend every one when shooting only on CF to get a spare CF Module...
would be fine to have a adaptor pulling in instead of the card and changing every time the card on the adaptor....
hopefully in the near future there will be the red drives out.... so then its not a quite problem on the set...

regards
rainer

[roryhinds]

you can't change the CF module with easy.

I had a bent pin and tried to remove the port but it ain't going nowhere without a hammer.

[Stephen Williams]

you can't change the CF module with easy.

I had a bent pin and tried to remove the port but it ain't going nowhere without a hammer.

Hi Rory,

4 bolts, a hammer wont work.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Rory,

4 bolts, a hammer wont work.

Stephen

Unless of course it's glued on later cameras making simple repairs more complicated for us DIY enthusiasts.

Stephen

[Mike Prevette]

since it's designed to be a swappable module I doubt it's glued on.

[Stephen Williams]

since it's designed to be a swappable module I doubt it's glued on.

Hi Mike,

Some of the cameras were glued.

Posted with Jim's permission

"BTW... 50% of the ones that went out glued have already been
replaced... which is a moot point because we are taking them all back
for new cameras. I think that this is a bigger story (customer
service beyond reason to those that accepted early cameras) than the
"we sent out 30 cameras with glued CF modules" story. IMHO.

Jim

[Arnaud Paris]

Thanks Stephen;
That's great to know that parts are somehow available.
Our pin seems to be fine so far, we've been shooting switching 10+ cards since the incident and being very cautious at sliding it in so that it's perfectly aligned.
For now we'll stick to Red support as it appears that our version is glued.

Arno

[Shawn Nelson]

Has Red made any announcement about what it will do to fix this problem in the long run? We need field-replaceable CF modules.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Shawn,

Unless your camera is glued they are field replacable.

Stephen

[Shawn Nelson]

Hi Shawn,

Unless your camera is glued they are field replacable.

Stephen

Has anyone done that? I thought opening your case voided your warranty? Can you just buy a second CF module and keep it available for such an emergency?

It seems that if, under normal operations, one of the pins was broken, that Red would repair/replace for free. They really need to design a fix to this.

What I would do, is to make the CF module more external (maybe even sliding into the hdd bay on the battery cage) with a cable that plugs into the hdd slot then you can easily have two in your bag in case when goes FUBAR.

[Adrian T.]

Instead of making the CF module field replaceable, RED should get down to the root of the problem and make a CF module where no pins can break in the first place.

Just my 5 cents...

[Jim Exton]

Instead of making the CF module field replaceable, RED should get down to the root of the problem and make a CF module where no pins can break in the first place.

Just my 5 cents...

That would be my first choice.

Along with the battery mount, LCD, handgrips, screws, Red Arms, the EVF that can't be easily re-positioned without being re-set completely.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Making an indestructable CF Module is a noble but I believe likely hopeless endeavour. For better or for worse CF Cards are built on the ATA interface (Pin for Pin) which means they have to pack in a lot of pins to a very small area. This makes CF Cards great because reading off of them is super simple and convertors from one interface to another can be purchased at commodity prices (unlike an express card interface). It also lets you easily handle all of your storage solutions through a single bus without having to program a new interface for each type of media.

But getting back to the pins, in order to fit them into such a small area they have to be extremely thin. In order to be conductive they have to be quite malleable. I've broken dozens of ATA pins over the years and they're more than twice as thick. These are practically whisker thin metal bits sticking out. And if you don't want your CF Cards to get stuck there has to be a bit of slop in the slot.

Swap out a CF Card every 5 minutes under pressure 15 times a day, 6 days a week and those pins have undergone a lot of stress over 6 months.

The only solution which would get to the root of the problem would be to make some sort of adapter and custom CF module which operates on a cartridge/contact interface like esata, RAM or SD Cards. But that would increase the size probably by double and require RED to custom build all of the necessary gadgets.

I guess to make a long story short. This isn't RED's fault. There's probably very little anyone can do to fix it (Canons, Nikons, my computer, all have suffered the same fate) and while they can be repaired a swappable module seems like the best alternative since they're almost certainly using a SATA or ATA connector somewhere in the process. Unplug. Unscrew. Screw in new module. Replug. Or at least that's how I've done it in my computer.

Bonus points if RED could design a CF module that was in something like an oversized express card form factor with a standard laptop HDD sata interface on that back that could be just shoved in and secured with two screws. A hotswappable CFCard module of sorts. But again... then you're moving away from commodity parts into custom build (translate expensive) parts and drives up the cost of each RED by a few hundred dollars.

[Brent J. Craig]

The size and shape of CF cards is standardized. The specs can actually be even tighter since Red is approving and selling the cards we are supposed to use. There is no reason whatsoever why a precision-machined CF slot can't be built to very exacting specifications which could virtually ensure no broken pins.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But there's a difference between reselling existing CF Cards and requiring your CFCard manufacturers to begin producing CFCards with your new fancy super tight spec modules (Or adding some sort of guide groove).

That also locks you into a single CF Card vendor and what if one month Lexar is producing the best cheapest cards and the month thereafter it's Sandisk. It'll again just drive up prices and you're right back in the P2 price debacle of producing a specialty device at a premium.

Edit:
http://www.lezot.com/catalog/pinthru.jpg
Note the thickness and length of those copper pins. Good luck making that strong.
(side note: note the custom ata interface on the side, see everybody uses some form or another. Ribbons are easy to remove and reattach. Much easier and cheaper than finding some unobtonium which doesn't bend and is highly conductive and isn't brittle.)

Edit2: That's not a RED module, that's from a DSLR.

[Kevin Halverson]

The fact that the camera interfaces with generic CF cards is a brilliant concept; I would never vote for a proprietary solution, keep it as it is.

Will pins break, sure, but the cost is so low, its really not a big deal. Keeping a backup CF module for the camera around is not really price prohibitive and given that it is something that might fail, not a bad idea at all.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

To back up khmuse: Canon CFCard Modules cost about $100 which is a small price to pay compared to buying 10 custom built red CF Cards which cost an extra $20 each (If you could even find a manufacturer willing to custom produce a CF Card at all.)

[Jim Exton]

Well with only 100 cameras out there for 2 months and a couple incidences already, that $500 is going add up over a period of a year.

1.8" Sata might be the solution to this problem.

It would be nice if they made the Red Drive a Raid 1 device.

[Brent J. Craig]

...That's not a RED module, that's from a DSLR.

To bend pins like that you have to be really trying hard!

The only time I have seen that is when someone tried to shove a card in sideways (which is unfortunately possible since CF cards have their contacts on their longer side - all other flash formats use the skinny side for the contacts ).

[fightordie]

If redesigning stronger pins on the module isn't possible how about going in a different direction like putting a door on the cf module that opens up exposing the pins and cf compartment. You would place the card in a non slot way giving you a full view of what is happening with the pins. 'Loading' a card as opposed to sliding a card into a dark hole. You can see the alignment and watch the card slide onto the pins. Then close door. It forces you to pay attention to the insert process, like threading film on a camera but obviously much faster.

[Häakon]

Hi Gavin,

One huge difference between most dSLRs that I've seen and the RED is that the dSLRs have an eject button for the CF card. That makes removal a lot easier than having to pull the card from the pins yourself; I suspect that's one of the contributing factors to the semi-frequent pin bending that has been occurring.

[RCFisher]

That must be the difference. I have had DSLRs for 7 years and have never bent any of my CF card pins, even on heavy usage days 10-20 card changes. All of my cameras have had an eject button to help remove the cards. The only CF card sockets that haven't had eject buttons are media players but cards go in and stay a while.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I could see how having to pull (and probably wiggle a bit) to get a card out would definitely contribute to the problem. I had assumed most bendings happened when force was being applied downward on a slightly misaligned card.

BTW completely off topic: Haakon I didn't get a chance to give you your prize candybar at LART. PM me your contact details and I'll send that off.

[Häakon]

BTW completely off topic: Haakon I didn't get a chance to give you your prize candybar at LART. PM me your contact details and I'll send that off.
Hehe, I know... I was looking forward to that the most! Unfortunately I had some shooting conflicts due to the LART dates being shifted around and it didn't work out. I figured there were enough of you there to hold things down anyway. :-)

Even more than the candybar, I'd like to see some (quality) scaled overcranking come down the pipes... but then that's another thread...

[Arnaud Paris]

Just to keep everybody updated on our pin bending issue:
It's been now two days since the incident occurred and the pin seems to be doing fine, we kept checking visually every time we were putting or pulling a card if the pin was aligned correctly. There has been about 25 card changes since then and I believe that it helped the pin being realigned perfectly.
I agree that having to pull the card as opposed to an eject button can contribute to the weakness of the pins, but I'm pretty sure that's something Red is aware of and working on already.
Thanks for everybody's help and feedback by the way.
I also attached a few picks from the shoot.
Arno
www.locared.com

[Kevin Halverson]

OK, here is a work around solution. It is a card extender and is intended to off load the insert/removal cycle strain on a CF equipped device.

http://www.sycard.com/cf162.html

Seems like a very workable solution.

Kevin Halverson

[Lexicon]

OK, here is a work around solution. It is a card extender and is intended to off load the insert/removal cycle strain on a CF equipped device.

http://www.sycard.com/cf162.html

Seems like a very workable solution.

Kevin Halverson

There's just one problem with such a device...it's basically a bridge. Which means you have the possibility of reducing the data rate and or corruption if the data flow is compromised by an extra data controller or the extra power consumption of a physical extender. It would be a great idea for RED to come up with their own version that is guaranteed to meet the data transfer rates or test it to see if it's appropriate for RED use but I honestly don't think I'd use that without actually knowing exactly how Sycard have laid out the innards. If it's just a physical extender, then I might use it, provided the data transfer rate was not compromised by anything but if there's a data controller between the pins and the actual CF card, forget it.

[Kevin Halverson]

From what I can tell, this is a mechanical interface only, so no data rate reduction is inherent. There may be some additional capacitive loading to the signals from the added connectors and cable length, but with a logic family that is basically CMOS levels, I wouldn't expect any significant impact.

I will test and confirm, but this looks to be a good solution right now.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I wouldn't imagine something like that would decrease the thoroughput. It already has to travel down a foot long ATA cable, an extra inch shouldn't do a whole lot. I would be concerned though about that large of a device sticking out the side of the camera and it getting hit without enough force to cause serious damage to RED's CF Card module.

Edit: Muse beat me to it. :)

[Kevin Halverson]

I am checking on price and availability right now. I will post as soon as I have more information.

Kevin

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just throwing this out as a possibility... But how do we know RED hasn't updated the CF module and made a better slot for this next batch of cameras?

I don't think this extender module is that great of an option. It's one more link in a chain that could cause problems. It's one more thing protruding from the camera that would need protection.

[Kevin Halverson]

Well, I am going to see a new camera body a bit later today (Jon from RED is bringing one by my office) so I will ask the question about the CF solt and see what I can learn.

Kevin

[Kevin Halverson]

Well, Jon from RED just left my office and I gave him all the information on the CF extender. It might just be the perfect interim solution for this. I will post more when I get pricing and availability information.

Kevin

[Deanan]

The easiest way to bend pins is to insert the card by the short end. There's nothing you can do to protect against this. All the cases I've seen of bent pins so far were caused in some way by inserting the short end in. Sometimes inserting in the short end can bend the pins just enough that it still works but can causes bent pins later on.

[Kevin Halverson]

That makes sense. Nothing like a bit of good old human error to screw up even the best laid plans. I am sure any owner/op wouldn't do anything stupid, it's the less experienced that you have to worry a bit more about.

[Deanan]

During the two Soderberg feature which were probably 70 shooting days of 12 hours each in very rough conditions, there was not a single bent pin. I attribute that to the superb job Steve Meizler (1st AC and more) did making sure that the camera operating procedures were well understood and enforced by his crews. Same goes for the other first Sergio Delgado and the seconds.

You can spot a short end insertion pretty quickly because you'll see a bunch of pins bent together in the same direction or split apart. Thats harder to do with an insertion that's between the rails.

[Brent J. Craig]

I have a CF card reader that fits the expresscard54 slot of my laptop. Its pins are protected by a plastic shroud that will not slide down until the edges of the card push releases on the rails of the slot. A sideways insertion or other foreign object wouldn't expose the pins.

See below - nicely shielded pins:

http://www.hsc-us.com/Consumer2/expresscards/images/expc_w_camera001.jpg

The problem with sideways insertions is that because it is since a boneheaded move no one will admit to it and will always try to blame something else.