What is really new?

[Jannard]

All of the footage you have seen so far is from "original cameras". Claudio just tested an old camera. So what is new and included in the new camera?

1. New lens mount. This is a big advancement in precision and ease of use.

2. New IR/LP filter moved to a new location... from 2mm to 8mm in front of the sensor. The flare characteristics and image quality improvements from this change are substantial.

3. Sensor settings and DSP improvements reduce noise and improve dynamic range.

4. Firmware improvements. The boot issue is gone. More features are enabled.

5. Cold weather improvements. We went from 0C operation to -20C by a change in the hardware.

6. Hot weather improvements. We have added fan settings that take us from near 40C to at least 40C. After that, you'll need to address the camera with alternative action. Fan, umbrella, cold packs, etc. depending on the temperature.

Issues left to discuss...

1. Sharpness. All other digital cameras have in camera sharpening. When we get compared side by side, this should be taken into careful consideration.

2. Data rate... we have the ability to increase the data rate if necessary. We are looking at that as another option.

We will always look at ways to increase performance and improve our camera. We are keenly motivated to get better everyday... at no cost to our customers.

Jim

[James T Mather]

Sounds great.

[Casey Green]

2. Data rate... we have the ability to increase the data rate if necessary. We are looking at that as another option.
Jim

Have you thought about giving the user control over wavelet compression ratios? Perhaps you could have a default of "REDCODE Variable", but then also have other options from 2:1 to 10:1...

thinking out loud...

[Sanjin Jukic]

All of the footage you have seen so far is from "original cameras". Claudio just tested an old camera. So what is new and included in the new camera?

1. New lens mount. This is a big advancement in precision and ease of use.

2. New IR/LP filter moved to a new location... from 2mm to 8mm in front of the sensor. The flare characteristics and image quality improvements from this change are substantial.

3. Sensor settings and DSP improvements reduce noise and improve dynamic range.

4. Firmware improvements. The boot issue is gone. More features are enabled.

5. Cold weather improvements. We went from 0C operation to -20C by a change in the hardware.

6. Hot weather improvements. We have added fan settings that take us from near 40C to at least 40C. After that, you'll need to address the camera with alternative action. Fan, umbrella, cold packs, etc. depending on the temperature.

Issues left to discuss...

1. Sharpness. All other digital cameras have in camera sharpening. When we get compared side by side, this should be taken into careful consideration.

2. Data rate... we have the ability to increase the data rate if necessary. We are looking at that as another option.

We will always look at ways to increase performance and improve our camera. We are keenly motivated to get better everyday... at no cost to our customers.

Jim

Thanks Jim.

Great news!!!

[Elizabeth]

"Cold weather improvements. We went from 0C operation to -20C by a change in the hardware.

6. Hot weather improvements. We have added fan settings that take us from near 40C to at least 40C. After that, you'll need to address the camera with alternative action. Fan, umbrella, cold packs, etc. depending on the temperature."


Are these temperatures indicating the point of failure or the last effective operating temperature?

**Edit: I believe that I just found my answer by returning to the thread titled "Cold Update"

"We actually got it to boot colder but we are being conservative... Jim"

Thanks for that response. e.

[Häakon]

Encouraging post, Jim. I especially look forward to seeing how you have managed to drastically reduce boot times to a point where the "issue is gone." Of course this is fantastic news if it delivers.

On the sharpness issue, I hope you continue NOT to add sharpening in camera, or at the very least, make it an option. I was severely disappointed to find that after months of Graeme's testimonials on the disadvantages to sharpening that the initial REDAlert release added sharpening by default. I know you guys addressed the issue very quickly, but even the fact that you entertained the notion in the first place was a bit disheartening. I know it's frustrating to have your untreated footage compared to that of other cameras which crush blacks and add sharpening as they shoot, but the quality filmmakers will absolutely appreciate the fact that you give us the most pristine image possible to do with it what we like. It can always be added later but never taken away. This notion can not be underestimated.

Data rate is another interesting one; how much is too much? Some would say that uncompressed is the only way to work - quality trumps all. Others would say that having the ability to cut 4K material on a Macbook is the true revolution in itself; what good is the quality if no one can use it? So far, I am very happy with whatever compromise has been made - and I become guarded when I read of firmware releases which are slowly increasing data rates. While I absolutely want the highest quality image (with the least noise and most latitude) possible, recording times are also an issue. I will be bummed if that shiny new 16GB card still only gets us 4 1/2 minutes of 4K because the rates keep going up. I like Casey's idea of a selectable compression "level" to address this.

Above all, however, your willingness to keep tweaking and make improvements - even after cameras have shipped - is the true testament to the success of RED; this is precisely why so many people have their eyes focused on the project and can't turn away. This wasn't the first camera to offer 35mm DOF, nor the first tapeless one. It wasn't even the first 4K camera. Perhaps it is the first to offer all of these things in a package that by comparison to other options is actually affordable. But the reason there are 3,000 preorders is because of these massive, ongoing efforts on your part to get it right (and keep it right). We are critical and bring up issues because we know you are actually doing something about them. We have unreasonably high standards because we know how much you care. And I for one am willing to accept any bumps in the road as long as your team continues to fight to render obsolescence obsolete.

[Dennis Guskov]

oh wow, you guys don't stop to impress me after impressing me so much for so long already...

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Jim, I go to the 50ies in some weeks, I always hated fanboyism, and will hate it in the future, but RED, I confess, it is different, thanks for all the work you and your team are doing for us.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Have you thought about giving the user control over wavelet compression ratios? Perhaps you could have a default of "REDCODE Variable", but then also have other options from 2:1 to 10:1...

thinking out loud...

M-hm.

[Elizabeth]

My hat is off to them.

The Red Team has introduced a bold and innovative experiment ... an open and democratic product development process. While they certainly seem to have the integrity, grit, perseverance, thick skins and available resources to pull it off, this openness can easily be skewed and misunderstood. (e.g. the "heated" posts on the "Hot Shooting" thread).

I think it will serve everybody well to realize that, for the most part we, as the purchasers, are simply not use to this new type of business paradigm.

Really, it is up to each us to adjust (or not) to this shift, but if we all can remember that we are part of a VERY interesting cutting edge process, I think it will make the wait more tolerable and the comments more tolerant.

"Patience, grasshopper".

[Ken K]

At this rate, when I get Red #1443, I'll be shooting 8k with autofocus. :) Thanks Jim and team Red for all your endless hard work!

[Martin Ludwig]

5. Cold weather improvements. We went from 0C operation to -20C by a change in the hardware.

6. Hot weather improvements. We have added fan settings that take us from near 40C to at least 40C. After that, you'll need to address the camera with alternative action. Fan, umbrella, cold packs, etc. depending on the temperature.

Issues left to discuss...

Jim

if this is true it is fantastic - there were so much discussions about the cold, would be all obsolete...

[Chris Pickle]

It sucks that Claudio tested an "old" camera. I wonder why he couldn't get his hands on the "new" camera? Did he get a test camera from Red? Or a Red owner?

Now if he finds even the slightest bit of perceived fault, people will just dismiss it as the "old" camera. While I understand that Jim was stating fact, and I'm glad he is making the Red cam better, even Jim's original post subtlety lays the groundwork for Claudio's tests to be viewed as irrelevant.

It would have been much better if Claudio had had access to the new version.

Chris

[Pig]

Amen to Häakon's post!

Also hope that image is "left alone", and that RED isn't going to make in-cam sharpening, despite many probably comparingraw footage and possibly complaining about RED's perceived "lack" of sharpness.
To a certain degree, and lower in the foodchain, HV20's cinemode is in the same boat.

[Steve Murray]

I always hated fanboyism, and will hate it in the future, but RED, I confess, it is different, thanks for all the work you and your team are doing for us.

Just to fan(boy) the flames a bit.....

I think the problem is that people cannot use the past and the fans of any other company to compare with RED. There has NEVER been a company like RED. What RED is doing has simply never been done before.

I've never been a fanboy and I really loved my Varicam.... but this is different. This company is different. I think it's great. I think RED is amazing.......... So yes, I'm a fan.

Jim and crew: Thanks for continuing to amaze........ Now please get back to work.


-

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Well Said Haakon!

[Graeme Nattress]

The defaulted sharpening was a programming error on my part. The intention was to put it in there as some people are not used to unsharpened images, and might want to see what the image could look like. My fault!

However, R&D heads onwards, and the more I learn about the perception of sharpness, subtle tricks about how bayer patterns work, and things like that, the image will only get better and will apply to old footage as well as new.

Graeme

[Finner]

All of the footage you have seen so far is from "original cameras". Claudio just tested an old camera. So what is new and included in the new camera?
Jim


Why was Claudio not given a newer camera to use?

[Ryan Patch]

Thank you so much for not being like all those other companies that release crappy products and then release v2.0 6 months later. You are truly changing the world, not only is cameras and optics, but business practice and customer service.

[LEON]

The defaulted sharpening was a programming error on my part. The intention was to put it in there as some people are not used to unsharpened images, and might want to see what the image could look like. My fault!

However, R&D heads onwards, and the more I learn about the perception of sharpness, subtle tricks about how bayer patterns work, and things like that, the image will only get better and will apply to old footage as well as new.
Graeme

Graeme, I have to thank you for you filters I use everyday in FCP, I learned a lot from them,
when you have free time (!) you are invited to the finest food you like in Paris, maybe in spring, whenever you want , thank you again.

[Graeme Nattress]

Leon, that's most appreciated! I love Paris, although I've only been the once!

Graeme

[jbeale]

Why was Claudio not given a newer camera to use?
When was that test done? Were there any "new" cameras ready at that time ? Are there any ready now, for that matter, except for an internal model that Red is still testing themselves? Did Claudio ask for a new camera? Would people here complain if he jumped the line? (I don't know the answer to any of these questions, I'm just asking).

[Brook Willard]

Since we have several cameras coming from this next batch of "new" bodies, I'll see if I can't put a little generic shooting test between one of the new bodies and one of the "old" [1-100] bodies together.

Jim, just to confirm, will cameras 101-200 be of the "new" body design with all of the new toys?

If so, we'll have a new body on hand with several of our "old" bodies still in service before they're swapped out for X bodies in January.

[Joel Kaye]

Since we have several cameras coming from this next batch of "new" bodies, I'll see if I can't put a little generic shooting test between one of the new bodies and one of the "old" [1-100] bodies together.


Great idea Brook. Will be fun to see the results.

[Casey Green]

2. Data rate... we have the ability to increase the data rate if necessary. We are looking at that as another option.

We will always look at ways to increase performance and improve our camera. We are keenly motivated to get better everyday... at no cost to our customers.

Jim




Have you thought about giving the user control over wavelet compression ratios? Perhaps you could have a default of "REDCODE Variable", but then also have other options from 2:1 to 10:1...

thinking out loud...

Still would love to hear RED's take on this idea.



4. Firmware improvements. The boot issue is gone. More features are enabled.



Can you elaborate on this? Which boot issue? (The long boot time?) and what is different now?

Thanks.

[Brandon Fraley]

Have you thought about giving the user control over wavelet compression ratios? Perhaps you could have a default of "REDCODE Variable", but then also have other options from 2:1 to 10:1...

thinking out loud...

what i was thinking also, but im no engineer. I have no idea how this stuff works.

Either way, I'm definitely on the side of the fence of wanting the smallest file sizes possible while maintaining a certain level of quality. Having the option to for either would be best. :)

[Dane Brehm]

Thanks for the update! Always appreciated to hear whats in the pipeline!

[Nathan Buxton]

"at no cost to the customer"... hmm

maybe "at no or as little as possible cost to our customer."

I would think a good way o handle it is to wait until more production models are out and at a point when an acceptable amount of features are enabled and refined "lock it down." and then features added on after that point would cost a minimal amount. I on't want to see RED going under because of their generosity.

[liquidigital]

Amen to Häakon's post!

Also hope that image is "left alone", and that RED isn't going to make in-cam sharpening, despite many probably comparingraw footage and possibly complaining about RED's perceived "lack" of sharpness.
To a certain degree, and lower in the foodchain, HV20's cinemode is in the same boat.

Amen to your amen. In camera sharpening goes against the grain (no pun intended) of shooting raw in the first place.

After seeing Mark's (offhollywood) blow up of RED footage, I have no doubt that visually it is more than sharp enough.

[Brent J. Craig]

Impressive.

I hope moving the IR/LP filter 6mm closer to the lens won't limit which lenses we can use. Some of them go quite far back into the camera body. Any brave souls have an old Angenieux 5.9mm they can test?

[Gregor Hagey]

Great news. Looking forward to getting the new improved Red in January. Does this mean the Red One is no longer considered a Beta release?

[Damien Molineaux]

When was that test done? Were there any "new" cameras ready at that time ? Are there any ready now, for that matter, except for an internal model that Red is still testing themselves? Did Claudio ask for a new camera? Would people here complain if he jumped the line? (I don't know the answer to any of these questions, I'm just asking).

Here's Jim answer to your questions :


Claudio did not have a "new" camera as defined as the ones that we will ship later this month. It did not have the new sensor settings, the new DSP, the new cold fix, and it had one of the early prototypes of the new mount (I think). We have offered Claudio to test the "new" camera as soon as they are finished. But he did test an "old" camera.

Jim

found here http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6503&page=7

And by the way, I'm happy to hear about all these improvements, congratulations to the Red team. I was wondering about the differences between the old and new models, now I know. All I want to hear about now is how we are doing with delivery schedule. Are reservations holders 101 to 300 going to get their Reds for Christmas ? And what after, I know we'll be told when you're ready, but just so you know, I'm ready to hear.

Thanks again and have a great (short) holiday :-)
Damien


Cheers,
Damien

[Obin Olson]

I really really like the idea of compression control from the end user pov...would be a really nice feature.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would think a good way o handle it is to wait until more production models are out and at a point when an acceptable amount of features are enabled and refined "lock it down." and then features added on after that point would cost a minimal amount. I on't want to see RED going under because of their generosity.

You honestly think RED would accidentally go bankrupt? Jim's a clever guy I imagine he's not going to just run his company into the ground. If RED needed more money they would raise prices.

[Evin Grant]

I really really like the idea of compression control from the end user pov...would be a really nice feature.

I'd have to be able to tell the difference and I'm not sure I could. Remember Redcode is a variable data rate compression already, it's just choosing the best rate for the given frame. I think that's right at least, Graeme?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It's variable within limits. It's only varrying I'm seeing by about 5-10% right now in real world conditions. (Often the variation is as little as a few KB per frame or less than 1%)

[Kevin Halverson]

At the extremes (fully clipped sensor and dark sensor) I have seen frames as small as 800k so the delta looks fairly small at the current data rates.

Once there is higher writing speed media available (like the RED Drive) then having the option of tuning the data rate would be a nice feature.

Great thing is that these types of changes are firmware options, so who knows what's coming from the RED guys?