Possible Stolen Red Camera. Help Needed.

[Eric MacIver]

This is not a Red camera "first" that I ever wanted to be involved with. However, I am. I know there are a lot of Red One reservation holders that plan on renting out their cameras. Hopefully if this happens to any of you, we can all help each other recover our equipment.

We have gone almost four years without a losing a single camera, but that seems like it may change.

We shipped a Red One (serial number 91), to Fresh Meadows, NY. Just outside Queens and Manhattan for a previous/established customer to use on his short film "On the Way Back" shooting from 12/3 - 12/9/07. He called us on 12/11/07 to extend his rental to the 12th (due to weather) and confirmed paying for his rental with a wire transfer confirmation number.

The camera never came back, the wire never came in and no tracking or wire transfer confirmation numbers lead us to anything. Now, his phones are disconnected and emails are unanswered.

The rental customer's name is Abdul Wahid from New Line Indie, Inc. If anyone has any information that could lead to the recovery of our equipment, please PM me. I really would appreciate the information.

Thank you and happy holidays.

[ShannonRawls]

Hey Eric, this is your buddy Shannon. I'm heading to NY in a couple. if you need me to check-in on anybody while I'm out there, let me know. You got my number.

[J.D. Frey]

Holy Crap- that's awful. If he happens to wander near alabama we'll give him an ass-whoopin'

;)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Scary sh*t.

[Brook Willard]

You might consider posting all the information you have available about the camera:

Serial number, what parts the camera had [and their serial numbers], etc.

Did you guys send a tech? I don't mean that in a smartass way, I'm just curious to see if somebody close to indie rentals was involved in the shoot that might be able to offer more information.

Post what you're comfortable with. Stickied.

[Steve Freebairn]

Is there anything in the .R3D files that identifies what camera it came from? It would be nice to be able to track the files back to the camera.

[Brook Willard]

The R3D files definitely contain that metadata, but I don't know if it's accessible through any software RED has delivered.

For future reference, lets try and keep this thread clear of sympathy and keep it constructive and proactive. There's a missing camera - we know that sucks. Lets see if we can get it back :ph34r:

[Nathan Garofalos]

Did the guy have insurance on his film? If so you have someone from an insurance agency to contact about his information; and if you don't get your camera back, the insurance should cover it. That is if the camera was covered on his insurance plan. I don't really know what else you could do. I don't think the guy could get much work with a missing camera without getting caught. People now know that a number in 90s is missing and will be on the lookout for one being used on set.

[CJ Roy]

Would you mind specifying which # in the 90's? I really don't want to have to pull out a receipt for my camera on every set.

Thanks.

-#96

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think the camera will turn up, in a couple of months a Red One original camera will stick out like a sore thumb.

Stephen

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You don't need any special software to check the serial number. Just open it in wordpad and it should be on the first page. However that's a somewhat unrealistic request to make of all footage. The easiest way will be to check on set... or if you get any footage from a shady source.

If they steal cameras they probably don't pay for post services either.

[J.D. Frey]

Did the guy have insurance on his film? If so you have someone from an insurance agency to contact about his information; and if you don't get your camera back, the insurance should cover it. That is if the camera was covered on his insurance plan. I don't really know what else you could do. I don't think the guy could get much work with a missing camera without getting caught. People now know that a number in 90s is missing and will be on the lookout for one being used on set.

The only problem would be that you have to go to the end of the line for a new camera-Yikes! I hope they find it.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

The rental customer's first name his Abdul. .
THIS KIND OF Name's belong to Asia or arabic it is not easy to know the rest of it ..:bye2: hope they cought him very soon.unless he is trying to fly with it out to his country .:calm:
i hope you make police report with camera description and keep it watching borders , i think he will fly it away usa..:umm: hope not.

[Kevin Halverson]

The R3D files definitely contain that metadata, but I don't know if it's accessible through any software RED has delivered.

For future reference, lets try and keep this thread clear of sympathy and keep it constructive and proactive. There's a missing camera - we know that sucks. Lets see if we can get it back :ph34r:

Its really easy to find with a simple hex editor. I will be happy to help look into any suspect .r3d files if that would be helpful.

Kevin

PS So sorry to learn about the camera loss.

[Noah Kadner]

Here's a thought- perhaps Red Cine should be slightly altered to look for the serial number in the Bin Hex. There could be a database of Reds reported stolen. If an .R3D from one is loaded, it automatically puts up a warning...

Noah

[Eric MacIver]

The only problem would be that you have to go to the end of the line for a new camera-Yikes! I hope they find it.

Yah, that's the big problem. Insurance should cover us (less the deductible which no one likes to lose, but that's a drop in the bucket).

Thanks to everyone - and Shannon - I might take you up on that offer!

[Cüneyt Kaya]

ok, you have his adress, name, passport number ect...right?

what will happen, after finding him through his dates:
1.if he is an idot, he will confess and give it back, or the money he made.
2.if he is a little smarter, he will try to leave the country, maybe he will succeed, probably not, in this case he is still an idiot.
3.If he is smart, he will tell HE was robbed, and has a really good story to prove it.

What i would do to get the camera back or catch the thief.
1.
check if the cam is still in NY. How? send someone else to the dealers of stolen equipment and offer them 50 000 K for a red. And it is really easy to find these guys.
If there is a potential seller, you got him.
2.
Or offer other guys who know this type of buisness to find the guy who tries to sell this cam, and give them a reward.

What else can happen?
If he knows you have an insurance that will cover your loss, and he claimed that he was robbed, someone else will contact you and he will try to sell the cam back to you to a lower price, around 15 k, with the explanation, hey you will get a new one through your insurance, and yeah, you can get one more just for 15 K.

This mentioned is realistic, if the thief is not very well experienced, dont follow this forum and
WANTS TO SELL THE BODY.



but the cam is probably out of NEW YORK, somewhere in South America or Russia, keep in Mind a cam of this type, is for a regular thief nothing special,
it is special for the dealer who sells them to South America, or Russia or wherever.
So you gotta find this DEALER, How? Tell people of a certain kind, you have
a stolen camera and want to sell it, you will pretty fast get a connection to that particular dealer.

From here on its your choice:
Let the police catch him, get your insurance payment and wait for a new one,
or try to get your cam back, and then call the police.

Whole different thing if he wants to keep it.
then you gotta offer a reward, money let a lot people sing.


EDIT/ helped some friends and problem was solved this way.

[M.Halsell]

At this point servicing and parts can only come from one source. So I guess it will be kinda interesting how long a stolen RED can travel around before it 'has to call home'.

[Corrado Silveri]

I'm with you.
Just stolen my camera in NYC (was a Panasonic Aj-HDX900, not a Red).
But I'm really angry...

[Mark Allen]

I just wanted to comment that NoahK's thought is really interesting and would definitely be a forward thinking thing for a company to do. Clever! Things like that might also make the red an undesirable item to steal in the future and very well could end up helping to find this one though it is probably headed in-house somewhere.

[Axel Mertes]

Here's a thought- perhaps Red Cine should be slightly altered to look for the serial number in the Bin Hex. There could be a database of Reds reported stolen. If an .R3D from one is loaded, it automatically puts up a warning...Noah

That is indeed an interesting suggestion that should be directly addressed in all next versions of RED software. On the other hand one might patch this out at some point, so it should not be simply the number...

Another option might be to send an automatic email or the like if it has internet connection on that particular system.

Anyhow, all this does not prevent bad guys from doing workarounds at some point.

Maybe its more prohibitive to have a watermarking in exported images if they are encountered as "from stolen cam" and identify themselves.

Another approach could be to render the camera useless with a new firmware update that disables the camera and future user sided firmware updates, except RED team itself. But then, OTOH, the camera may be completey worthless and dropped away, maybe never localized and returned.

Best thing would have been a hidden embedded GPS module and maybe even embedded cell phone to send regular life signals when enabled with a new firmware etc. A technical value of maybe 100 or 200 bugs, that will give other benefit of being able to embed GPS data to every shot, which might be interesting to some poeple.

After all it should be considered how a specific camera may get identified and localized for situations like this.

Just thoughts,
Axel

PS: NYC seems to be pretty unsafe place...?

[Rick Darge]

I like the idea of a firmware update that fries the camera. Worst case scenario, at least you know this guy isn't profiting from your investment and now he has a big paperweight. I'm really sorry to hear about this. Hopefully its all a big misunderstanding and your camera is coming back to you.

[Mike Harrington]

Here's a thought- perhaps Red Cine should be slightly altered to look for the serial number in the Bin Hex. There could be a database of Reds reported stolen. If an .R3D from one is loaded, it automatically puts up a warning...

Noah

I for one would be happy with the loss of some privacy for this kinda protection....
If this camera ends up in Suadia Arabia or China or whatnot you will have almost no recourse legally...even if you know where it is.(unless you fly there and......well you know)

Although this severely sucks......
best thing to do is make everyone aware, maybe Red can watch out for it....
and just forget about it.
I had some cars stolen in the past.....and staying up late thinking of ways to kill people was a complete waste of time.
I do sympathize....I'm just being practical
I doubt this guy was an idiot.....he was specifically going after this camera.
It may even be someone in china wanting to do a knockoff.......who knows.

Anyway....lets pray he is an idiot and takes it to Red for a retrofit.

[Dan Hudgins]

The camera could be modified to allow the rental house to enter a password to set a timer in the camera to shut the camera down after the rental time is up, plus maybe a day or two. The camera could display the time left on the rental to tell the renter when the camera is due back.

The accessories could get a code through their power from the camera that would be required or they would power down, so they would not work on camera's SN not programed into their firmware. The camera password could be used to add more SN to the accessories, that way if any accessories are taken they will not work on another camera since only the owner can change permissions.

The owner would set the timer/limiter so it would also lock out the reset on the clock, and limit the number of turn-ons before the camera locks up with just a prompt for the password.

You could add some combination of buttons to be pressed in some defined order along with the password so that it would be very hard to crack and get the camera to ever work.

You could have the camera burn out a fuse (or worse) or something if someone trys to crack the password more than three times. (it could start beeping continuously until the battery is unplugged also!)

The display can say "This camera stolen from: Don Doe, 123 Main, Anytown, USA" all the time after the rental time has lapsed.

Do not have a way the renter can extend the time, even over modem or beep code through the microphone input, since that would allow a crack.

That would make the camera useless to anyone who steels it, and RED (tm) could tell everyone so to discourage such acts.

[brandon herman]

i agree

the option of a password is a great idea.

[Chris Pickle]

I for one would be happy with the loss of some privacy for this kinda protection.....

Famous last words.

Chris

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wow. I suppose we all knew this would happen to someone sooner or later.

Hopefully you covered all your bases, notified authorities in the area you shipped the camera to and give them all information you have about this "Abdul". Notified your insurance agency, notified RED. You should have a valid shipping address, I'm assuming someone had to sign to receive the camera at an actual location. There's got to be a way to track this guy down. Established customer you say? How did he pay you before? Chances are, you can track him. Unfortunately, he's probably out of the country by now and your camera has already changed hands.

On the bright side of things, if RED is notified, the thief and anyone he sells it to, shouldn't be able to upgrade to the new camera. Perhaps other measures can be taken? Would it be possible in future firmware updates to render known stolen cameras non-functional?

[Cloudchaser]

You should register the stolen camera and any associated lenses, etc. on PERA's website.

http://peraonline.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/PERA

David

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Deadman's switches are just asking for a disaster on set due to a malfunction. Passive protection seems like the best (if any) solution.

[Brent J. Craig]

It sucks to have a camera stolen, but your course of action should be pretty clear:

You have a shipping address and name, and you obviously would have had them provide proof of insurance before you shipped.

Call the police to report the theft, then call their insurance company and put in a claim, INCLUDING the lost rental days until the camera can be replaced.

[Mitch Gross]

Most insurance covers you if the camera is stolen from the guy who is renting from you. If he steals it you're screwed.

We talked to Indie Rentals earlier today. We're pretty sure this same scammer tried to steal a Phantom and Optimo from us this summer.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rentals
Abel Cine Tech

[Stuart English]

Please let everyone that you do business with know that RED ONE cameras have a unique 9 digit electronic serial number - a P.I.N - that complements the physical serial number tag. The latter may be erased, defaced or otherwise tampered with, but the P.I.N can't.

The P.I.N is also written to every video frame recorded (its in the .R3D file) but an instant view of the camera P.I.N is available by pressing the key to the right of the joystick, plus the joystick itself. The P.I.N will then be displayed in the rear LCD panel. In the case of my test camera, the P.I.N is ABC_123_XYZ

The P.I.N is also displayed on the rear LCD panel and on all monitor ports at camera boot up from Build 8 firmware onwards.

[Brook Willard]

Thanks Stuart, I always wondered what those numbers were.

That's not a bad thing for camera owners to think about: write your P.I.N down somewhere safe!

[Gareth]

This kind of activity rings the alarm bells of "Lusa Producoes" (not a real company) who pulled a similar stunt with Sony HDCam gear in HK around 18 mths ago. I believe APV Web had to write the loss off. Could this be the same grub??

My condolences.

Gareth Lee
Sunshine Coast
Australia

Related link below
http://www.apvweb.com/news/news.asp?id=16

[ericyoung]

...We shipped a Red One (serial number in the 90's), to Fresh Meadows, NY. Just outside Queens and Manhattan for a previous/established customer to use on his short film "On the Way Back" shooting from 12/3 - 12/9/07...

As he was a previous/established customer, do his previous rental contact details give alternative avenues of investigation?


...He called us on 12/11/07 to extend his rental to the 12th (due to weather) and confirmed paying for his rental with a wire transfer confirmation number. The camera never came back, the wire never came in and no tracking or wire transfer confirmation numbers lead us to anything. Now, his phones are disconnected and emails are unanswered...

It sure looks a lot like it has been stolen. :sad:

But it may be that something else is the reason. I mean doesn't it seem weird that if he was going to steal your camera that he would bother to phone to extend the rental? There may be some innocent explanation. :umm:

[Dalibor Fencl]

....
The P.I.N is also written to every video frame recorded .....

That's nice to hear & clever to let known it to everybody.

[Omnius]

This guy ABDUL. . . any last name? any indication on what part of the M.E. he might be from? I have a significant amount of contacts in the M.E. including Lebanon, U.A.E., Bahrain and Egypt. The industry is small and everyone basically knows everyone involved, so if a RED all of a sudden shows up in the Middle East when RED has no record of selling any "extra" unregistered ones directly to the area, it may not be that difficult to track it down. If the camera has left the U.S. the U.S. police will basically be impotent in doing any thing about it, but things in the Middle East work in Entirely different ways, especially when it comes to cops and bakhsheesh. If this 'Abdul' is truly his name and a Middle Eastern the word could be put out to the players in the Middle East and it should be easy enough to get word. Any one in the Middle East with a RED will more than likely be flaunting his new toy and word will get around rather quickly, unless it's of course an Israeli using the name Abdul as a cover to throw people off track, but even though, I think few Israeli's will have REDs in hand and it should be easy to locate. It's not like there are a lot of REDs in circulation. At least not yet. I'll spread the word through my Lebanese, Bahraini, Syrian, Egyptian and Emirate contacts for you.
Sincerely

[Omnius]

One last thing.

I have a very close friend who works as a "Skip Tracer"
If you could possibly P.M. me with as much information as possible on this guy I can have my friend run him through their systems.

Trust me when I say my friend has a knack of finding just about ANYBODY

Any and all details will help in the trace.

[ChrisLyon]

Jumping on the firmware interaction train, when a stolen camera is identified, the firmware installer could call home with information on the computer like IP address/computer registration info. IPs can be tracked back to the ISP and then legal steps would have to be taken to ID the owner of the IP at the time of the call home. Then just fly over and knock down the door with a few hundred red ninjas.

I've never had a camera stolen-I can only imagine.

[RivaiC]

Sorry to hear that man. This is awful !

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Jumping on the firmware interaction train, when a stolen camera is identified, the firmware installer could call home with information on the computer like IP address/computer registration info. IPs can be tracked back to the ISP and then legal steps would have to be taken to ID the owner of the IP at the time of the call home. Then just fly over and knock down the door with a few hundred red ninjas.

I've never had a camera stolen-I can only imagine.

what if the computer is located in an "internet cafe" somewhere in lebanon?


or the idea with shutting down the camera through updates, good idea, but then the result would be, the thief would get less money, because you cant upgrade.
a person who knows this would avoid to update anymore.

[Ed Watkins]

Best thing would have been a hidden embedded GPS module and maybe even embedded cell phone to send regular life signals when enabled with a new firmware etc. A technical value of maybe 100 or 200 bugs, that will give other benefit of being able to embed GPS data to every shot, which might be interesting to some poeple.

I've always thought this would be a great feature. My biggest fear is some one stealing my cameras/laptops (I had a laptop stolen a few years ago, it sucked).

Anyway I looked into it, and for a few hundred bucks (and a bit of soldering) you can make your own Cell/GPS unit that you can track, and hide it in your camera bag/shipping case.

http://tinkerlog.com/2007/07/13/interfacing-an-avr-controller-to-a-gps-mobile-phone/

Sorry to hear about your loss.

[Jeff Coatney]

Here's an idea: On the Craigslist New York or where ever this guy is supposed to live, put an Ad on the film and video or similar listing the following:

"I want a RED camera for my son, who's entering film school this fall! Top Ca$h paid!"

Someone willing to burn their life for $50K worth of high-end tech, probably just wants the cash or is desperate to shoot something specific in the coming weeks. They probably will want to unload the gear for whatever they can get for it soon. They will have their ear to the ground looking for a no-questions asked buyer and will be desperate to avoid a sting. If they take it overseas, it will be useless without a workflow to back it up. This is a grand theft felony so we are talking prison time of some length. Nobody with a brain enough to use this camera themselves will be dumb enough to try to hang onto it and risk capture. Work with the local autorities in the area where it disappeared. The DHS may also be contacted in this scenario because of the price one could command in selling such an item. One could finance all manner of nefarious deeds with the money one could get for a stolen RED.

[Omnius]

what if the computer is located in an "internet cafe" somewhere in lebanon?. . . .

It's a lot easier to locate something in Lebanon than you might think.

Especially if your Lebanese and dealing with a professional item such as camera like a RED

If a stolen camera such as a RED does happen to find itself in Lebanon, it wouldn't take very long for a number of people to have knowledge of it. That kind of knowledge is wonderful for a legitimate business in the industry, but it can be a very dangerous and hazardous liability for those in possession of stolen goods. Lebanon is a small country with a significantly armed population, and the Lebanese authorities have a tendency to be very heavy handed and brutal towards thieves, especially when given the proper incentives. Lebanon has one of the best judicial systems money can buy.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

It's a lot easier to locate something in Lebanon than you might think.

Especially if your Lebanese and dealing with an professional item such as camera like a RED

i am familiar with this kind of things, so i believe all you say is true, and i think best would be for indie rentals ask for your help, if it seems to be in the middle east.

[Omnius]

I think the best thing here is for us to be given a LAST name

The last name alone will give us a good indication wether the person in from the Levant, Turkey, The Gulf States (Khaleej), North Africa, The Balkans, Iran, or Asia.

It will at least begin the process of elimination

Any word on a surname ?

[darkhorsegraphics.co.uk]

Let us know the serial number!

If this guy thinks he'll ever use the camera on a professional shoot he's deluded. If the serial is scratched off, the crew should be very suspicious, no doubt they will know how to check the internal serial number anyway.

If you're reading this mate, you've got no chance. If you'd stolen a Z1 you could have got away with it. But you've effectively stolen a Maclaren F1, you muppet! Keep it in the garage, cos if anyone see you driving it, you're screwed.

The world geography of where this camera ends up won't mean a local crew is happy to work with the camera either.

[Omnius]

To the person who has taken the RED camera from Indie Rentals. . .

By the fact that your name is "ABDUL" I am assuming that you are a Muslim, and you as well as I know that Allah-Subhanwataallah has knowledge of ALL things, and that the consequences of your actions will be severe in this life and in the next.
You have a way to save and redeem yourself. . . return the camera and be accountable for your actions like a man.

But be VERY VERY certain that you WILL BE FOUND. The RED Network extends across all continents and now that we are all aware of this incident word is spreading out to every corner faster than you could ever imagine.



Be intelligent and return the camera.

Don't give your mother and father unnecessary reason to grieve and mourn

Sincerely

[mdo]

Here's a thought- perhaps Red Cine should be slightly altered to look for the serial number in the Bin Hex. There could be a database of Reds reported stolen. If an .R3D from one is loaded, it automatically puts up a warning...

Noah

Here's some more thoughts along that line: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=87141#post87141

[Paul Leeming]

How about something additional to the boot up PIN display, like two text lines customisable by the buyer at time of purchase and only insertable by Red, like the PIN, eg.:

Property of Visceral Psyche Films
www.visceralpsyche.com

ABC_123_XYZ

If you subsequently sold your Red to someone else legitimately, the additional warranty purchase by the new owner would come with the option to change that boot up screen upon verification of the sale by the first owner.
Would this be easy enough to implement in time for the next batch of cameras before they head out the door? Only Red can answer that, but I would feel happier seeing my company's name and contact details every time the camera boots up, knowing no one can change it.

Cheers,

Paul

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Please let everyone that you do business with know that RED ONE cameras have a unique 9 digit electronic serial number - a P.I.N - that complements the physical serial number tag.

I THINK who stol this camera he will try after while to upload new firware from
Red website ? is there is a way to track him trying ?:sarcasm:

[Sven Seynaeve]

It could make operating for us a little harder,
but with hearing this fact I'd like something to be done immediately to all upcoming reds.

-either implementing a pin code
-or a dongle wich expires after a certain date , like beta software
-maby something in the os, so you'll have to login every 3 or 6 months to update your profile and red being able do a check if you are the real owner of the cam, if not your cam will not perform anymore.., challenge , response thing ...
-or implementing a gps tracker at an extra cost, internally

or maby as many security items as possible combined together.

It can't be to hard I suppose to avoid further stolen reds.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

It could make operating for us a little harder,
but with hearing this fact I'd like something to be done immediately to all upcoming reds.

-either implementing a pin code
-or a dongle wich expires after a certain date , like beta software
-maby something in the os, so you'll have to login every 3 or 6 months to update your profile and red being able do a check if you are the real owner of the cam, if not your cam will not perform anymore.., challenge , response thing ...
-or implementing a gps tracker at an extra cost, internally

or maby as many security items as possible combined together.

It can't be to hard I suppose to avoid further stolen reds.

or GPS tracking system,,,:usd:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Such "draconian" measures are not a good idea... It will cost RED more in the end to implement, test and support such protections. It won't stop the problem of gear being stolen. And it will make it more inconvenient, possibly even problematic for legitimate users.

The best thing to do is be protective of your gear. Take steps to ensure your security. Keep things insured for damage and theft. Try to know who you do business with.

Stuff happens, such is life. File the insurance claim and move on, hopefully the authorities can do something to recover the camera.

So far from what I've gathered from what was posted... The camera was sent with only a promise of the renter to pay, no valid insurance certificate was submitted either. Established customer or not, there's a little bit of carelessness in those details. If the thief was truly an established customer who paid for services at some point in the past, then there should be payment information or other ways to hunt him down. Use these details, go get the guy.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

2 bodyguards are enough :calm:

[Eric MacIver]

The camera was sent with only a promise of the renter to pay, no valid insurance certificate was submitted either. Established customer or not, there's a little bit of carelessness in those details. If the thief was truly an established customer who paid for services at some point in the past, then there should be payment information or other ways to hunt him down. Use these details, go get the guy.

Actually, it was sent out with a valid credit card used successfully in the past, a drivers license copy, a physical address that was used for a successful rental only 6 months prior, a valid insurance policy and to a customer that changed his dates that were planned over a month in advance due to scheduling conflicts.

We had none of the telltale signs of theft prior to shipping. My prep techs accidentally didn't charge before shipping. That was a mistake, but that's a small issue in comparison to the theft.

He also could have rented valuable PL-mount lenses from us to increase his theft, but didn't (he had taken care of those himself on his prior rental as well). If he really wanted to make some money, why not steal some Ultra Primes along with the camera? Why call and extend a rental due to weather? It all doesn't add up, so I still have hope that this package will show up at our office at some point, but I can't plan for that. Good thing my brother is in the FBI :)

I'll make sure to post more relevant information as soon as I have it.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and support. It does help. And if it happens in the future to anyone else, I'll be sure to do what I can to help as well.

[Scott M]

Please let everyone that you do business with know that RED ONE cameras have a unique 9 digit electronic serial number - a P.I.N - that complements the physical serial number tag. The latter may be erased, defaced or otherwise tampered with, but the P.I.N can't.

Ours says "N/A"...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Actually, it was sent out with a valid credit card used successfully in the past, a drivers license copy, a physical address that was used for a successful rental only 6 months prior, a valid insurance policy and to a customer that changed his dates that were planned over a month in advance due to scheduling conflicts.

Oh... Wow. Uh, strange. You're right, that doesn't add up. I'd still start trying to track the guy down, but that's just weird.


He also could have rented valuable PL-mount lenses from us to increase his theft, but didn't

Yep. Just one more thing that doesn't scream of a complete rip off...


What if it's not outright theft and something happened on his end and he's just hiding from you? Camera damaged/destroyed or stolen from him and he doesn't want to face the music... It's possible.

Anyway, all just speculation.

[Phil McCarty]

A. [Glad they deleted the message. Clearly I'm not the only one that needs to "lighten up."]

B. Here's some technology to keep an eye on. It seems small enough where you could actually embed it somewhere on your camera, (or -several- somewheres). It'd be even better if RED could place it somewhere that wasn't user serviceable (and thief-removable) as an add-on. (assuming it's even real)

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hide_and_seek/s5-poor-mans-lojack-tracking-chips-will-run-for-four-years-cost-2-weigh-nothing-333966.php

[Finner]

A. That's tacky, and offensive. I hope they IP trace you and block your regular account.

I thought it was funny.

You need to lighten up.

It sucks that a camera was stolen but life goes on and a laugh helps.

Really when you break it all down if anyone stole a red right now they are very stupid. Lenses or other gear fine but they will not get very far with a red and they will get caught fairly soon. Like Stephen Williams mentioned it will be the only old style red out there and will be very easy to spot. Also due to the nature of meta data and other digital signatures the camera will be found.

Now if they had taken lenses or other hard to trace items indie rentals would be SOL.

[Robert P. Hogue]

This is not a Red camera "first" that I ever wanted to be involved with. However, I am. I know there are a lot of Red One reservation holders that plan on renting out their cameras. Hopefully if this happens to any of you, we can all help each other recover our equipment.

We have gone almost four years without a losing a single camera, but that seems like it may change.

We shipped a Red One (serial number is 90, 91 or 93 - confirming ASAP), to Fresh Meadows, NY. Just outside Queens and Manhattan for a previous/established customer to use on his short film "On the Way Back" shooting from 12/3 - 12/9/07. He called us on 12/11/07 to extend his rental to the 12th (due to weather) and confirmed paying for his rental with a wire transfer confirmation number.

The camera never came back, the wire never came in and no tracking or wire transfer confirmation numbers lead us to anything. Now, his phones are disconnected and emails are unanswered.

The rental customer's first name his Abdul. If anyone has any information that could lead to the recovery of our equipment, please PM me. I really would appreciate the information.

Thank you and happy holidays.

I feel for you man. It seems almost like deja-vu for me. I rented out my HVX-200 to a fellow who supposedly had a production company specializing in producing corporate video, and music videos (Iron Mountain Entertainment) , and at first seemed O.K. Him having done work for a couple of local bands, I trusted him, but Same thing, he called to extend his rental, and gave me his Visa number, but it was over the limit, and afterwards his phone went unanswered. Got the camera back a few days later, but he said the guy doing the post had my P2 cards, and would return them. A month went by, his phone disconnected, no email contact, so I played hardball, and reported the P2 cards as stolen, with the serial numbers. Two days later, I get a visit from the Police notifying me they had been seized, and they had been used for an utterly despicable purpose, and I won't be getting them back until one month after the accused has been sentenced.

News releases:
http://www.rwnicholson.com/Witten.htm
http://www.rwnicholson.com/Whitten-private%20contribution.htm

So now there is one thing I have learned about all of this: Unless I am physically present with the camera, I will demand insurance for the full value of the camera, or charge the full value of the camera on the guys credit card, refunding its value less the rental upon return. I will also insist on getting at least one piece of secure ID (inside front page of passport, or drivers license), as well as the guy's Social security number, and verifying character and personal references. These days you cannot do business with expensive gear on trust alone.

[Phil McCarty]

I thought it was funny.



Yes. I know you did.

[David Wyatt]

Here's a crazy idea - is it worth having a blacklist of stolen cameras at Red so that a firmware update could brick the camera in question? Then at least this Abdul guy would either not be able to engage new features with Firmware updates (that is if he knew about the blacklist), or else if he didn't know about the blacklist and he tried to update his firmware he would have a useless, bricked camera. This might possibly discourage future thefts of the Red camera. There is a potential for this kind of thing with the Red camera if it is indeed uniquely identifiable (but would be a complicated job - one worth doing if your insurance company lowered your premium, though). Didn't the very first Red prototype get stolen from a show ages ago? I bet Jim & the guys would love to get revenge on people like this by devising a system like the one I've described. Like someone said earlier a first gen Red camera's going to stick out like a sore thumb pretty soon, especially if it has old features enabled. Everyone keep their eyes peeled and their ears open (especially in the region where the camera got nicked - it's the kind of thing a camera assistant might notice on a job...first-gen Red camera, old features etc). I think maybe we should set up a quick-response, World-wide Red vigilante/revenge squad against these scumbags (we could even get Jim to design some costumes...and weapons ;-)

David Wyatt.

[Omnius]

Maybe. . . just Maybe when the guy finally got the RED in his hands and saw what an awesome camera it was, he like had a heart attack, an awesome orgasm, or simply just blew a fuze.

He's probably face down in some drainage ditch somewhere with his pants have way past his knees causing up a real stink at the side of the road.

The camera's probably just fine, neatly and safely tucked away in the trunk of the car. . .

Anythings possible, right?

Maybe not

[M.Halsell]

So now there is one thing I have learned about all of this: Unless I am physically present with the camera, I will demand insurance for the full value of the camera, or charge the full value of the camera on the guys credit card, refunding its value less the rental upon return. I will also insist on getting at least one piece of secure ID (inside front page of passport, or drivers license), as well as the guy's Social security number, and verifying character and personal references. These days you cannot do business with expensive gear on trust alone.

Probably the most affordable and practical security solution is mentioned above. And of course any additional technical solutions will augment the consciencious effort of the equipment owner. Thanks.

[Pierce Cook]

Given the resources, I would hire an army and make an example. I can't stand when garbage like this happens.

Best wishes getting it worked out.

[Michael Brennan]

Sorry to hear that your RED hasn't been found.

Mitch wrote that the description seemed to match a scammer he may have come across.

You can't be too careful. In the UK in 2006/07 over 50 scams and burglaries were conducted by an Eastern European gang. The gang leaders used local UK hoods usually with a drug problem, that were know to the police.

The gangs activities impacted every major rental company in the UK.

One company lost two cameras from a van that was being loaded on their loading dock, the tech has his back turned for no more than 20 seconds.

Their night time activities included breaking in downstairs store room while the owner was upstairs, peeling roofing knocking holes in walls the list goes on and on.

They revisited some of their victims too, one of my friends was done twice and then they still tried two more times after he increased security. He ended up sleeping on the premises to try and catch them, unwisely sleeping beneath a window, the very window they chose to break in!

One time they walked out of a small post house with an edit deck while it was in use!

Another trick was to follow runners who pickup video kit for production often in a car or small van with poor security. Usually a runner will have a few stops to make, they simply follow him and smash and grab out of the car.



The most public case happened in Hungry in 2006 where a BBC production team had setup an edit suite for the TV series Robin Hood. They stole decks and four master tapes, which they held for £1m ransom.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=402584&in_page_id=1770

Then there was the French company that lost two HD cameras, the camera crew being lured into in a field for a helicopter shoot.

The UK police and interpol were very slow to respond, eventually setting a task force after the 20th incident. Insurance companies didn't seem to care. Various security ideas were put to Sony including pin operation ect.

I hope that RED doesn't suffer the same attention, but since many RED guys are new to the rental business I hope the recent horrid UK experience is a heads up as to what to expect.


This is how one post house vented their anger after being scammed in July this year, it includes video of the crime. http://www.johnkeily.co.uk/



Mike Brennan

[indivfx]

Hey Eric, this is your buddy Shannon. I'm heading to NY in a couple. if you need me to check-in on anybody while I'm out there, let me know. You got my number.


Go in with a cop!! or a SHOT GUN!!

[Richardvclark]

Here's my advice, call Anton Chigurh.

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/05/16/no-county-old-men.jpg

I am truly sorry to hear about your camera. I hate people who steal.

[dino g]

sorry to hear about this...it reminds me of something that happened to me...

the year was 2000, the place venice, ca, the time 830 am

so i am the head of production of a rather large production company/ internet site. we have 4 facilites and are renting 20 edit bays. hundreds of employees, a real machine.

so we are moving out of a stage facility and taking the two media composers and moving them to our corporate headquarters. i have the post sups schedule a move with the co we are renting the avids from because i do not want to screw up the move, have the pros do it right.

well at 820 am a truck pulls up, the guys flash some paperwork come in and tear down the avids, load them in the truck and drive off. i am at another facility at the time and i just assume that everything is going smoothly.

around 835 i get a call from the stage manager, he says xyz company is here and they want to pick up the avids, but xyz already came by and picked them up.

i immediately think it is a miscommunication and that in ten minutes or so someone will show up at HQ with the bays....

long story short, they were stolen.

three years later i get a call from a detective and he tells me that they found one of the parts from the avid at a guys house they caught for stealing. turns out he was an x-employee of xyz company and he had done this to many production companies over the years and finally got caught...

being 2000 when a full blown avid with digibeta decks, dv decks and beta decks was worth about 200k+each, you would think that the LAPD would make it a priority to solve the case...not so, they did not care and just got lucky 3 years later...

i know it will not bring back the camera but maybe it entertained you and let you forget about it for a few minutes. good luck and ill join that posse anyday to go punish the perp.

[Christian Edwards]

you know what would be a good idea........ wait for it ........ A gps chip of some sort hidden on the camera body

[vincelucero]

GPS chip would be great. Just make sure we have the option to turn it on or off ourselves.

[Andrew M.]

I see more and more of this on the laptops.
May Dell XPS came with it, my car has it somewhere build in, though my old car has GPS gizmo. Looks like LoJack is more and more popular.
Do not need satellites and works from the basements.
Is this any good?
http://www.lojackforlaptops.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoJack
Andrew

[Lexicon]

Here's an idea...when you update the firmware, you have to put in a registration code that is unique to every RED camera system board/owner (this could be initially entered upon receiving the camera as a sort of activation security feature) or it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, then you have to contact RED to arrange reactivation of the camera just as you would if you bought a RED from someone and needed it serviced/checked. Only RED could change/reset it via replacing/accessing the system boards directly. You could make it part of the onboard flash ROM or something. If someone calls in for a stolen RED then RED calls the BLUE with the caller information and the BLUE looks at the RED to figure out how it got there so they can return it to the rightful owner. Just a thought... :red_bandana:

(BLUE is the cops in case you were wondering)

[hd444]

How about cutting loose with Abdul's last name? We previously owned a digital security company. There are ways to digitally track deadbeats. Need more detailed info ....

[Phil McCarty]

Another thing to consider, guys. Would cost you about $120 a year, but I bet your insurance company would cut you a deal if you promised to have one of these in your cases. I would suggest stashing one in each case before you rent it, and cut the request time to once every three hours or so.

If I'm not misreading the limitation (which I most certainly am) This would give you updates of your camera's location, accurate to the street for just under nineteen days.

http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/gizmodo/full/~3/204367089/lightning-round-zoombak-gps-tracking-device

[Rocco Schult]

Deadman's switches are just asking for a disaster on set due to a malfunction. Passive protection seems like the best (if any) solution.

Thats a problem. The camera shouldn't be necessarily disabled. If you have an error (could be operators mistake) you're fu2ked.
It should much more clear for everybody in this industry: you cannot use the files if the camera is reported stolen.
Prevents stealing, doesn't it ?

RedAlert/Cine/Scratch are locked to convert/play files from cameras reported stolen.
If there should be communication problems its not the camera getting useless on set of your legal and good clients, just the conversion/playback.

[Brian Reisdorf]

Please let everyone that you do business with know that RED ONE cameras have a unique 9 digit electronic serial number - a P.I.N - that complements the physical serial number tag. The latter may be erased, defaced or otherwise tampered with, but the P.I.N can't.

The P.I.N is also written to every video frame recorded (its in the .R3D file) but an instant view of the camera P.I.N is available by pressing the key to the right of the joystick, plus the joystick itself. The P.I.N will then be displayed in the rear LCD panel. In the case of my test camera, the P.I.N is ABC_123_XYZ

The P.I.N is also displayed on the rear LCD panel and on all monitor ports at camera boot up from Build 8 firmware onwards.

So, we mentioned it briefely before but #97 seriously says "N/A" for it's P.I.N when checked with any of the above methods. Are other 1-100's cameras displaying proper P.I.N's or is this something to be concerned with?

[Eric MacIver]

OK, update: Anthony from Airsealand was kind enough to drive by Mr. Wahid's address and it looks like he moved out just over a week ago. We're happy to reward anyone with information that leads to the recovery of our equipment.

Thank you, everyone, for your support, ideas and sentiments.

[SF Geek]

Did you ever give out the actual serial #? The more facts you post, the better your chances of recovery and it will also keep some of the other Red owners that have a 90# from being harassed.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The camera could be modified to allow the rental house to enter a password to set a timer in the camera to shut the camera down after the rental time is up, plus maybe a day or two. The camera could display the time left on the rental to tell the renter when the camera is due back.

The accessories could get a code through their power from the camera that would be required or they would power down, so they would not work on camera's SN not programed into their firmware. The camera password could be used to add more SN to the accessories, that way if any accessories are taken they will not work on another camera since only the owner can change permissions.

The owner would set the timer/limiter so it would also lock out the reset on the clock, and limit the number of turn-ons before the camera locks up with just a prompt for the password.

You could add some combination of buttons to be pressed in some defined order along with the password so that it would be very hard to crack and get the camera to ever work.

You could have the camera burn out a fuse (or worse) or something if someone trys to crack the password more than three times. (it could start beeping continuously until the battery is unplugged also!)

The display can say "This camera stolen from: Don Doe, 123 Main, Anytown, USA" all the time after the rental time has lapsed.

Do not have a way the renter can extend the time, even over modem or beep code through the microphone input, since that would allow a crack.

That would make the camera useless to anyone who steels it, and RED (tm) could tell everyone so to discourage such acts.


I also second this.

Password protection is very important and should definitely be added to future builds.

And it should also be programmable, which means that:

- If you want, you can disable it entirely, which is not recommended, unless you're giving it to someone you TOTALLY trust or if you're operating the camera yourself.

- Set the camera to ask for password on every boot. This could be annoying, but you should also be able to...

- Set the camera to ask for password once every 24 hours - for every shooting day - you log on in the morning and it doesn't bother you again till next morning. Or something similar.

I would also suggest two passwords:

- One for the camera technician [programmable] - Only you and the tech. guy knows that one. I would always send someone I trust to take care of the camera or go on the shoot myself. I wouldn't send my baby all alone somewhere without the tender care of her lover or of a good friend of his :).

- Another [internal] password that only you should know [programmable and for-your-eyes-only] - in case the technician gets cheated somehow or he turns to the Dark Side or whatever. This password should appear more rarely - once a month or something like that.

Both passwords should be 8-10 symbols at least, or, you know - strong enough.

Also if the camera body is opened, the internal password should immediately activate itself. In case someone wants to try and hack into the system clock or whatever.

All the passwords should be recoverable by the RED Service, of course. In case you forget it or mess something else up. :)

I guess the RED Team already knows these things and are cooking something up.

Just wanted to give some suggestions.


Merry Christmas to the RED nation! :)

[Manfred Lopez]

I think I like the Holiday Inn solution the best. Just use a key card, pre-programed on your computer, that you slide in a couple of times to get the green light (and it has to be a couple of times because in never works the first time around :) ).

Or go really retro and use actual car keys... :)

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Let's put this idea out to the community for consideration:

If you chose, your RED could be required to "phone home" at least once every ___ days. If it did not shake hands, it would shut down.
This could benefit both owners and the RED team. Perhaps a quick file share with camera data - number of hours, software versions, etc.. RED could alert the owner via email that their camera is using an out of date firmware, or identify other issues. Of course, this feature should be optional - we want to avoid frightening someone who might think this is a new Big Brother.

The problem with waiting for someone possessing a stolen RED to try to upload new firmware is that if they know this would fry the camera, they would just use it as is. Just like that old "winter crasher" car. If they are involved in certain industries (i.e. porn), they may not ever bring the footage to a real post house - the code imprint would not be in the released DVD's - again allowing them to bypass detection.

The advantage with the "phone home" requirement is that someone stealing a camera would have a very short timeframe to use it before it would be of no resale or production value. Was it due to call in that week or next month? only the owner would know. It would certainly reduce the probability of theft.


That said, I would certainly like being able to have a customized ID such as "Property of ____" appear on the screen during boot-up. Also, for a DP that is an independent owner/operator - the customized labeling could serve as proof of originator for copyright issues.
If that info also made it into the metadata, even better. (Though I would not want to sacrifice more essential data).

[Andreas Hellebust]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to implant a GPS unit in each camera? Hardwired, so it couldn't be removed? I don't know if this is too paranoid, but I most often really miss a gps transmitter in my electronic stuff (especially my cell phone, hehe)

[vincelucero]

Tricky situation. You want it to be a simple solution and all of these so far have a weakness. Whatever the solution, just make sure it doesn't bite me in the ass when I'm shooting for 2 months in Antarctica with no phones/internet, forget my password and lose my key. And for Pete's sake please don't bring back the dongles of Avid!!!

GPS would be my vote as long as it's user controlled on/off.

Merry Christmas everyone, or as we say here: Mele Kalikimaka!

[Robert P. Hogue]

OK, update: Anthony from Airsealand was kind enough to drive by Mr. Wahid's address and it looks like he moved out just over a week ago. We're happy to reward anyone with information that leads to the recovery of our equipment.

Thank you, everyone, for your support, ideas and sentiments.

At this stage, there is only two options. Either something has happened to him (hospitalization, detention, bereavement, or his own death), or else there is a sinister motive (Theft, trying to run from the law, trying to avoid debtors, damaged the camera, etc). If he had nothing to hide, he would have made contact with you, or had someone do so on his behalf.

The first option that I urge is that you report the missing item as a theft, and make sure to report it to the local police, and FBI chapter closest to his last known whereabouts.

The second option is to hire a private investigator to do a skip trace. The more information you have on him, the better. They will use social engineering, and contact his former landlord, employers, associates, friends, etc to try and finesse his whereabouts. Once you have this, you get an attorney on his case, and in most jurisdictions, you can seek damages plus recovery of your legal costs. And if you do locate him, and he states that something happened to him, make certain that this can be authenticated by him sending you a copy of a hospital bill, copy of death certificate of the deceased relative, etc before you leave him off the hook.

[Eric MacIver]

Did you ever give out the actual serial #? The more facts you post, the better your chances of recovery and it will also keep some of the other Red owners that have a 90# from being harassed.

Yes, I edited my original post - 91.

[Eric MacIver]

At this stage, there is only two options. Either something has happened to him (hospitalization, detention, bereavement, or his own death), or else there is a sinister motive

We have confirmed that after his return date, he was alive and well. Still trying to track him down... FBI have been informed. Local police won't even take a report. Still trying that avenue. Hoping the insurance companies can file the reports with them better than we can.

[Lexicon]

We have confirmed that after his return date, he was alive and well. Still trying to track him down... FBI have been informed. Local police won't even take a report. Still trying that avenue. Hoping the insurance companies can file the reports with them better than we can.

I really hope you get your RED back. Given the number of Abdul Waheeds' in that area he's probably gonna be VERY difficult to find. You should see if you can get a photograph of him to go by because his name is like "John Smith" in the middle eastern community. Do you have any information at all about his previous rental usage such as what the shorts were called and who he worked with?

[Brent J. Craig]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to implant a GPS unit in each camera?

Everybody understands that GPS is a passive, one-way, receive-only technology, right?

GPS's do NOT communicate back to the GPS satellites.

You would need some sort of cell-phone or wireless data connection that would report in with location updates. This would likely have a monthly/yearly cost for the network access.


I would also be very wary of trusting multi-million-dollar productions to a camera that has a dead man's switch. The risk of shutting down production because you lost your 'camera keys' is simply too great.

The bottom line is that at $17.5K, a Red body is almost disposable. For the price of a 3 week HD camera rental, you have paid for the camera. It does not need to be protected like the Nuclear Football.

The only thing these ideas would accomplish would be to ensure that your stolen Reds end up at the bottom of a lake while the thief goes on to sell the less-traceable accessories.

Maybe if they open up the firmware to hacks, you can lock YOUR Red down like Fort Knox. The ones people rent for real jobs need as few avenues of failure as possible.

[Steve Sherrick]

Indierentals,

Certainly don't want to criticize at this inopportune time, but how is it that you are not sure what serial # he has? That seems odd to me. There should be documentation of what serial # goes out to who. Clarification?

Regardless, I hope you catch the guy and this is a good reality check for all of us.

Steve

[sander kamp]

The bottom line is that at $17.5K, a Red body is almost disposable. For the price of a 3 week HD camera rental, you have paid for the camera. It does not need to be protected like the Nuclear Football.

The only thing these ideas would accomplish would be to ensure that your stolen Reds end up at the bottom of a lake while the thief goes on to sell the less-traceable accessories.

Affordable (relatively) and being able to buy one are two separate things as long as there is a waiting list of several months. Losing your RED now could mean several months of no income: probably a lot more than 17.5K.

[Brent J. Craig]

Certainly don't want to criticize at this inopportune time, but how is it that you are not sure what serial # he has?

I'm finding this strange as well. He has said the other 2 are out on rentals, but if you need to file police reports and call the FBI, wouldn't it make sense to call your other customers and ask which bodies they have?!?

We aren't getting the full story here.

[Andrae Palmer]

I wouldn't even take this thread very seriously, considering the rental company doesn't even know what serial number is missing. At the time of Mr. Waheed renting the camera there must have been less than 100 RED cameras in the wild. How is it possible that you don't know the serial number? Perhaps you really didn't lose a camera then... it could all be some paperwork screwup. Seems they don't track serial numbers for any of their cameras... considering that they don't have the paperwork for the other 2 red cameras being rented out. It's been eleven days now... how long does it take to confirm the serial numbers of the other 2 cameras? Sloppy operation guys.

[vincelucero]

I wouldn't even take this thread very seriously, considering the rental company doesn't even know what serial number is missing. At the time of Mr. Waheed renting the camera there must have been less than 100 RED cameras in the wild. How is it possible that you don't know the serial number? Perhaps you really didn't lose a camera then... it could all be some paperwork screwup. Seems they don't track serial numbers for any of their cameras... considering that they don't have the paperwork for the other 2 red cameras being rented out. It's been eleven days now... how long does it take to confirm the serial numbers of the other 2 cameras? Sloppy operation guys.

tough crowd.

[Corey Culp]

tough crowd.

It might be a little caustic, but it's a dead-on summation of what we know based on the information we've been provided. It does seem a little odd that the "rental house" doesn't include the serial numbers of ANY of the devices that are leaving their facility on some kind rental agreement, physical or electronic.

[Steve Sherrick]

Wait, wait guys. Before this gets into a bashing on Indierentals, that was not my intent on questioning them about the serial numbers. It was a curiosity. Perhaps they have other methods in place for tracking the cameras. We'll have to wait until more details become known about exactly what happened, but until then I don't think we can pass judgement on them. More important to establish how this happened, how to prevent it happening to other rental companies, and ultimately providing the community with a heads up on the security concerns.

Steve

[CJ Roy]

Well, it could be a pain for those of us who are also in the nineties, with how popular this forum is.

This shouldn't take much detective work to figure out.

[Corey Culp]

Wait, wait guys. Before this gets into a bashing on Indierentals, that was not my intent on questioning them about the serial numbers. It was a curiosity. Perhaps they have other methods in place for tracking the cameras. We'll have to wait until more details become known about exactly what happened, but until then I don't think we can pass judgement on them. More important to establish how this happened, how to prevent it happening to other rental companies, and ultimately providing the community with a heads up on the security concerns.

Steve

I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. I, too, found it curious as to why he wasn't sure which of his 3 cameras was the unit in question.

I apologize if it came across accusatory.

[Brent J. Craig]

...was not my intent on questioning them about the serial numbers.

I was. What's the deal guys?

[Andrae Palmer]

I was. What's the deal guys?

I'll have to try the same publicity stunt when I get mine. j/k :-)

[Shawn Nelson]

So why hasn't IndieRentals put up what serial number it is by now? Also, why not this individual's name and photo? He has it.

[mdo]

Indierentals, are you kidding us or what?? The lack of basic information on this matter has WELL past the point of reason. This is a bullshit thread with zero substance (apart from the good people offering to help) and it should be terminated immediately. Moderator, where are you?

Give them another few days. They might be on vacation for the holidays. While there's definitely oddities and omitted information, I'd be surprised if IndieRentals made this whole thing up. Hate to have the thread closed before they have a chance to respond.

[Jay A. Kelley]

You guys are really being cold about this. It's one of those situations where you are saying things because you are hiding in the "comfort" of your little worlds on the internet.

If you were in a room with Eric right now, you would not be saying this stuff for fear of looking like a bunch of heartless jerks.

No one has anything to gain be calling or insinuating that Indirentals is throwing a scam. Even if you believe they are, you will find the "true" pros would keep it to themselvs since there is nothing to gain from questioning them, and risks hurting a potential business relationship for the future.

I for one don't know what's going on. And I don't need to, it's not my business. I do hope that whatever Eric and Indie is going through, gets resolved and every gets back whatever it is they lost.

Sometimes, voiceing an opinion just to voice it is NOT a good idea.. Advice I wish I would follow more often.

Jay

[Lexicon]

Given that this Wahid guy doesn't actually have any filmmaker credentials (as far as I can tell from my queries) and a name that is the equivalent of John Smith, I don't think they have much information that could be released about him that hasn't already been shown to be invalid or worthless. As for the serial numbers, I'd imagine they'd have them written down somewhere so they could keep track of who has what but if they don't, that's their mistake and not something we should waste energy on at this point since it isn't under our control. If the camera is still intact and functional it will surface when someone who isn't on the owner's list starts to buy accessories or something goes wrong with the innards and whomever has it will throw it away, try to send it to RED, or put it on the market for some gullible wannabe Spielberg in the NY area to buy. Hell for all we know, the guy could have been in debt to someone and the collectors decided to take the RED when they came knocking on his door. Whatever the case is here, this should be a big wakeup call to those of you who rent out your gear for extra cheese or are considering it.

[vincelucero]

Wishing you some warmth Blue. Looks a little :cold: down there.

[Eric MacIver]

I'm surprised so many people posted thinking this was a scam or publicity stunt. I can assure you this thread is not BS. I was on vacation and dealing with everyone from this board that I had been in contact with, as well as official agencies such as the FBI and my insurance, via phone.

A long while ago I had updated the serial numbers to 90, 91 or 93. The reason I didn't initially have the serial number is because these three cameras are on loan to us from a customer of ours. Upon their request for privacy, we had not written down actual serial numbers, but rather our internal numbers for them, which were RP1, RP2 and RP3. I can tell you that we shipped RP2. However, once the camera was stolen, privacy was out the window.

The customer that had loaned the cameras to us had picked up two of them for some quick tests, but had not told us what serial numbers they had in their possession. Since then they have dropped 93 off at our office again, but have yet to answer my repeated requests as to if they still have 90 or 91 in their possession. (They were busy shooting a feature but have since answered - it's camera 91 we're missing).

Yes, we have learned our lesson on that - they were the only items we have ever sent out without actual serial numbers being noted, and that won't happen again. That being said, the missing camera is 90 or 91. As soon as they get back to me on which they still have I'll post the specific number.

If this was a publicity stunt, why would I risk three different cameras being "found" that weren't stolen when I could just post one number and not risk it? If this were a lie, I could have easily posted a specific serial number at any time and quieted you down, but I don't want to post anything that's not a fact.

We have three full page ads in LA411 about our Red cameras. We pay for the advertising we need. I just want to find this missing one so that we can get it back where it belongs.

On that note, I need to send a special thank you to Anthony (airsealand) who was kind enough to help with the investigation.

If anyone doubts the legitimacy of this request, I invite you to come down to our facilities to speak with me. I think a handshake and tour of our operations will put your concerns to rest. I for one, will be ready to help anyone else who finds themselves in this situation in the future.

[David Birdy]

I will Keep an eye out and help however I can. Did you find the correct serial number.

Dave

[Blue]

I'm surprised so many people posted thinking this was a scam or publicity stunt. I can assure you this thread is not BS. I was on vacation and dealing with everyone from this board that I had been in contact with, as well as official agencies such as the FBI and my insurance, via phone.

A long while ago I had updated the serial numbers to 90, 91 or 93. The reason I didn't initially have the serial number is because these three cameras are on loan to us from a customer of ours. Upon their request for privacy, we had not written down actual serial numbers, but rather our internal numbers for them, which were RP1, RP2 and RP3. I can tell you that we shipped RP2. However, once the camera was stolen, privacy was out the window.

The customer that had loaned the cameras to us had picked up two of them for some quick tests, but had not told us what serial numbers they had in their possession. Since then they have dropped 93 off at our office again, but have yet to answer my repeated requests as to if they still have 90 or 91 in their possession. (They are busy shooting a feature and I can't say why they won't answer quickly).

Yes, we have learned our lesson on that - they were the only items we have ever sent out without actual serial numbers being noted, and that won't happen again. That being said, the missing camera is 90 or 91. As soon as they get back to me on which they still have I'll post the specific number.

If this was a publicity stunt, why would I risk three different cameras being "found" that weren't stolen when I could just post one number and not risk it? If this were a lie, I could have easily posted a specific serial number at any time and quieted you down, but I don't want to post anything that's not a fact.

We have three full page ads in LA411 about our Red cameras. We pay for the advertising we need. I just want to find this missing one so that we can get it back where it belongs.

On that note, I need to send a special thank you to Anthony (airsealand) who was kind enough to help with the investigation.

If anyone doubts the legitimacy of this request, I invite you to come down to our facilities to speak with me. I think a handshake and tour of our operations will put your concerns to rest. I for one, will be ready to help anyone else who finds themselves in this situation in the future.

In a single post I have warmed to you Indie. Good luck...

[galexander]

stuff deleted...

it could all be some paperwork screwup. Seems they don't track serial numbers for any of their cameras... considering that they don't have the paperwork for the other 2 red cameras being rented out. It's been eleven days now... how long does it take to confirm the serial numbers of the other 2 cameras? Sloppy operation guys.



From my own personal experience dealings with this company, this to me sums up their operation.

[Mark Allen]

Well... I've rented from Indie Rentals and I'd rent from them again.

I'm a little surprised at how judgmental the response has been to this. Indie Rentals prices competitively to serve the Indie market - the rebels of the film world. Red users are mostly rebels - aren't they? Perhaps not. Perhaps now that it is a proven technology it's no longer a crowd of rebels who bend the rules a bit to try to make things happen and not get overly tied up in all the forces which try to stop filmmaking from happening.

Now, I don't think it's the worst idea to be semi-suspicious of entities in Hollywood - but I think attacking them is a lot different.

[Jeremy Neish]

At first I thought Indie was pricing their equipment too aggressively for the market. But then I noticed they break it down by part and when you put a full package together, it's actually on the slightly higher end of competitive. We only rent our stuff as a complete package at a somewhat lower final rate (after all, what good are any of the red parts to us without the camera).

I have to say, that reading this horror story while our camera was in Mexico for 6 weeks, made me a bit nervous. But it came back with only a couple of minor new scratches.

[Eric MacIver]

Thanks Blue.

I don't want to derail this thread, so if anyone has any issues whatsoever with our operation, prices or anything related to Indie Rentals, feel free to PM me, call me or email me personally. I am the owner and I take every such concern very seriously. I got into this business because no one was out there taking serious care of indie shooters like myself; and, starting from one person growing to 12 full-time, we've had to learn a lot of lessons about how to do that the best.

This is another lesson, and I've explained the uniqueness of our serial number situation. We do use rental software that tracks serials of everything going out, but in this one instance we entered RP1, RP2 and RP3 as serials rather than 90, 91 and 93.

jeremyn: we have a low price guarantee and I'll make sure to update our prices accordingly as soon as I free up some time to find out where the market is at, or when am shown better prices.

[Taylor Morrison]

Am I the only one who thinks that the camera might be in China on a bench being reversed engineered? A RED knockoff in the works....

[Steve Freebairn]

Am I the only one who thinks that the camera might be in China on a bench being reversed engineered? A RED knockoff in the works....

Good luck, I'm sure that there are some exclusive items in the Red one that would make it really hard. Also, it's not like there is loads of profit, Jim has been great to price things reasonably, so, why not reverse engineer a P2 card or an HVX200 and make some money off coming up with a cheaper way to get the same quality.

[Andreas Hellebust]

Actually Crewpix is right I guess. $17500 is like a 5 year old car or something, it's probably not the most valuable thing on set... Maybe a watermark in the metadata with the camera serial number is the best solution in the end. Yeah the mentioning of Avid dongle keys make me shiver :)

[galexander]

Dongles, S/N, phone home, etc are all virtually useless.

In a nutshell there is no realistic and commercially affordable solution to be honest. There isn't a dongle made by anyone that hasn't been and can't be hacked. There is not an 'Activation' process that can't be beaten. You need to the understand the economics and ego of why, not just the result.

There are a few solutions that would make it 'unappealing' to pilfer the unit, i.e., the man hours of hacking and/or ego payoff is not justifyable. Ok but you're going to added much more weight, power, complexity, and annoyances that only organizations like the government are willing to tolerate.

Navstar/GPS active tracking unit, unless you know with an hour or so it is stolen, the smart criminal type will have this disabled in about 15minutes. Now say you are shooting in a location, cave, underwater, metal shack where reception is weak or not at all possible or your filming involves driving around, there is no way for the Navstar to know if it has been stolen or you're shooting guerilla style. Do you want it to shut the machine off in the middle of your shoot? You would need to link with a credit card type tracking database(expert system) that is fairly smart and adept at figuring out what's going on.

A biometric interface, smart card, fingerprint, retinal scan with voice activation is probably the toughest. The data is always encrypted so even you managed to get to the hard drive, you would need a supercomputer to crack the encryption. The military use this style on their hardened laptops but the data they are protecting means lives could be lost. But now say Joe DoP can't make it on the set, sick, quits over 'creative' differences, now you have a system which may be completely inoperable. So you are paying the crew to wait around, have a donut, smoke, check emails, read Variety, SMS their agent, while you find out where the 2nd unit crew is.... :)

I think the simplest solution is to use a different color for the base unit instead of black, not just painted on but anodized or aloydined. Use that Red Logo along with the S/N. To me this is really bad marketing to have it look like every other film camera available. They, Red, should have the balls to stand up and say, (best Samuel L. Jackson voice) "Here's the future mother f_ck_r!" :) IMHO (and why where there so many snakes on that plane ha ha ha)

Maybe anyone who buys it sign an agreement, like ones you have to sign with Dolby, that at the end of the film you have to include a Red logo with the S/N. These seem like easy, economic and viable solutions IMHO.

Maybe red will put up a separate web page of owners and S/N along with a history of ownership, firmware, upgrades, like the DMV. So if one is pilfered and chopped up it will be obvious to many people, some one report it.

Just my .02.

[Brent J. Craig]

I think the simplest solution is to use a different color for the base unit instead of black, not just painted on but anodized or aloydined. Use that Red Logo along with the S/N.

Cameras are black so they don't reflect in what you are shooting.

[galexander]

Cameras are black so they don't reflect in what you are shooting.

aloydining or anodizing, is not the same as paint. if you're a smart cookie, you'd probably knurl the surface so the light is fairly randomly scattered off of the surfaces, this is an easy and cheap mechanical process. the camera body is not that large so the scattering that would be directly in the FOV would be minimal even with big 4x8 reflectors or a 4kW of lighting.

i would think more that they are black because when you shoot film, you want to minimize any possibility of stray light getting onto the film. my .02.

[Eric MacIver]

I'm updating my prior posts, but officially.... Camera number 91 is the one that is missing. Insurance investigators are on it more than law enforcement is... Hope we find this guy. Thanks everyone.

[Brent J. Craig]

I'm updating my prior posts, but officially.... Camera number 91 is the one that is missing.

There... that only took 25 days! :huh:

We'll start looking now.

[Eric MacIver]

Tell me about it. That won't happen again.

[A. Bastaki]

dude that sucks!!

hope you find ure camera back... whats the number again?
________
Tl1000S (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_TL1000S)

[Shawn Nelson]

I wonder if Red could specifically poison Red #91. It seems the next build could contain special code to detect #91 and temporarily kill it (message on screen that this unit is reported stolen). If the internal code has access to what serial number it is, this code enhancement to build 13 or 14 would be very easy.

[Nathan Garofalos]

But that only works if the person who stole it uploads the new firmware.

[Shawn Nelson]

But that only works if the person who stole it uploads the new firmware.

And if they don't, they'll be stuck with a permanently antiquated camera.

[Nathan Garofalos]

Good point.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I wonder if Red could specifically poison Red #91. It seems the next build could contain special code to detect #91 and temporarily kill it (message on screen that this unit is reported stolen).

and in good ol´ Red fashion, throw in some insults too.

:-))

Jochen

[galexander]

and in good ol´ Red fashion, throw in some insults too.

:-))

Jochen

Sehr lustig!! Viel spass!!

[Eric MacIver]

That would be a great option for disabling stolen cameras... And a great deterrent. At very least I'm hoping that upgrades to the firmware will, in the future, only apply to the newer models of the camera, rendering that one obsolete.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

And it will most likely be the only non-X camera with a <100 serial number.
Should stick out a bit, I´d say.

Jochen

[galexander]

And it will most likely be the only non-X camera with a <100 serial number.
Should stick out a bit, I´d say.

Jochen

meine freunde 'softice/rr0d', hex editor, zwansig minuten und alles ist beenden...

[Manolo S. Navazo]

galexander,
sind wir nicht alle ein wenig bluna???????

[galexander]

galexander,
sind wir nicht alle ein wenig bluna???????

"Wie Bluna bist Du?“

[Floris Liesker]

Oh no. The Germans have taken over the thread.

[John K]

Oh no. The Germans have taken over the thread.
Nein! Nein!
Ach du leiber!
Achtung himmel volkswagen!
Ach mein donderundblitzen Arrilaser!
OH-! Mein schmerzender Rübeflecken...
...übrigens auf Deutsch, ist das Wort für Red "ROT"!
Ich hoffe, daß es nicht eine Menge "Rot":- ist)

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Oh no. The Germans have taken over the thread.

And - dear Floris - haff you any problemzz withzz zzthat?

All tzze bescht.

Jochen

[vincelucero]

I wonder if Red could specifically poison Red #91. It seems the next build could contain special code to detect #91 and temporarily kill it (message on screen that this unit is reported stolen). If the internal code has access to what serial number it is, this code enhancement to build 13 or 14 would be very easy.

If possible, that would be incredible. Great suggestion Shawn. Maybe firmware updates should only be made available to official RED owners. Additional theft deterrent. :shiftyph34r:

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

or special self fingure print :nuke: Detonation Mechanism

[Nathan Buxton]

Too bad red didn't pack every camera with a half pound of c4 and an intercontinental satellite detonator!! Then they could just push the BIG RED BUTTON and blow that fucker up.

[Jim McKinney]

galexander,
sind wir nicht alle ein wenig bluna???????

Meinst du das, oder sagst du das nur so?

[conrad gaunt]

The thief is likely pretty technical, and must surely know about cameras. He won`t be updating firmware, he`ll be trying to sell it I reckon, unless its industrial espionage? Glad to hear you`re insured. Keep busy, you`ll get a new Red when insurance comes through. Avoid wire transfers, they rely too much on trust (which is usually ok). good luck

[conrad gaunt]

The thief is likely pretty technical, and must surely know about cameras. He won`t be updating firmware, he`ll be trying to sell it I reckon, unless its industrial espionage? Any duped buyer WILL want to upgrade. Glad to hear you`re insured. Keep busy, you`ll get a new Red when insurance comes through. Avoid wire transfers, they rely too much on trust (which is usually ok). good luck

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Too bad red didn't pack every camera with a half pound of c4 and an intercontinental satellite detonator!! Then they could just push the BIG RED BUTTON and blow that fucker up.

are you terrorist :)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

And if they don't, they'll be stuck with a permanently antiquated camera.

Yeah, it'll be great if they can have a "hidden" device in the firmware which could disable cameras that are reported stolen.

They really have to include some levels of protection after build 15 or even in it.

[Michael Morlan]

Too bad red didn't pack every camera with a half pound of c4 and an intercontinental satellite detonator!! Then they could just push the BIG RED BUTTON and blow that fucker up.

"You know what I do I like though, I like a killer. A real dyed in the wool killer. Cold-blooded. Clean. Methodical. Thorough. A killer, when he picked up the ZF1, would've immediately asked about the little red button on the bottom of the gun."

Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg - The Fifth Element

:tongue:

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

If someone steals my [future] RED, I call Javier Bardem...

[Shawn Nelson]

So whatever happened to this?