Shooting from Moving Boat - Shock-Absorbing Tripod?

[Tom]

I want to shoot out of a fast-moving boat on Lake Powell. The subject will be a second boat speeding alongside the camera boat. Right now I plan to use the Mako Head to keep the horizon level, but the biggest problem in this type of shooting for me is that the boat bounces and crashes off the waves of the lake at high speed, especially when the water is choppy, sending terrible shock and vibrations straight through the tripod's legs to the camera. The Mako can level the horizon, but I have been told that it does nothing to absorb shock and vibration.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5439/chaseboatox1.jpg

This is the type of "deckboat" the camera and crew will be on. It doesn't look like much, but it does 30mph in the water.

Is there any type of tripod that has shock absorption capabilities? I'm literally picturing a tripod with motorcycle front-fork-style shocks on all three legs. Is there anything like that? Is there another type of system I might use to keep the camera stable and level? My budget is very limited, so nothing too expensive.

Thanks!

[Christian Ford]

A few thoughts:
--A WW2 vintage solution is to shock mount the camera inside an old tire, (four diagonal points of attachment) and then shock mount the tire in the same way.
--Gyro's -- but they're expensive, awkward and hardly worth the trouble.
--Steadi mounted to the boat, but you'll have to deal with wind protection.
--Wait for a windless day (no chop) and go with the rig you have.

A final thought. After wasting a huge amount of time on "Jaws" screwing with various horizon-leveling heads, they resorted to what the operator had been advocating from the start: handholding. It looks damn good and it's widescreen.

cheers,
Christian

[Tom]

Well Gyro is already in effect with the Mako head. The gyro part is not the problem. The shock and vibration are the problems.

[ChrisLyon]

I've seen a steadicam just strapped to an operator before. Good results from that.

You need more than some uncalibrated motorcycle mounts. They are probably rated for too much weight for you to reproduce on the boat. Steadicams are fine tuned specifically for the weight of your rig so that's probably the best option.

[Tom]

Yes the "shocks" would have to be very supple.

Steadicam won't have the awesome horizon-leveling abilities of the gyro-stabilized mako head.

[Christian Ford]

Well Gyro is already in effect with the Mako head. The gyro part is not the problem. The shock and vibration are the problems.

I see I left out the key element; hand-held gyro, a la Jost Vacano on Das Boot.

[Tom]

Actual gyros are a million times more accurate than handheld.

[Jason Sturgis]

Tom,
You might want to check out this company:
http://www.motionpicturemarine.com/camera-stabilization.html
Their product called "perfect Horizon" is made for shooting on boats and unstable surfaces. They are the only guys who make a product like this, that I know of. Hope that helps.
-Jason

[Tom]

jason, that is a horizon stabilizer.

the mako can do that.

i need a shock absorber.

[Jason Sturgis]

Ahhh, sorry about that Tom. Thought that the perfect horizon would do the trick but guess it is lacking on the shock absorption.

[Cail Young]

What lens are you using? An optical image stabiliser may be in order. The alternative is to rig some springs to the tripod legs (or build a sprung platform upon which to put a tripod). Your problem is going to come with the high amplitude low frequency movements - landing the boat back in the water after a big wave, for example. Simple springs will handle low amplitude high frequency but you'll need an isoelastic system much like the Steadicam arms if you want to handle big movements like that.

Thinking out loud - is there a way to bastard-mount a Steadi arm between a tripod and its head?

[Tom]

Yes the big thuds will be the hardest to control.

No way to mount a steadicam alone, because you obviously miss out on the active correction of the gyro or operator.

What you need is a "steady pair of legs" or some shock absorbers between the boat hull and the camera.

[eltech]

Hi Tom,
Check out the boat to boat sequences on Bad Boys II. We used a Century/Canon 150mm - 600mm zoom in 3' chop at speeds up to 65mph. While Michael Bay only used pieces, the images looked like they were shot from a dolly on levelled track. The camera was mounted on a Pictorvision XR rigged to a cigarette boat. The XR is the 4th generation of stabilized head which uses tiny fiber optic gyros and accellerometers for sensing only.
Your comment about the Mako and Perfect Horizon not helping with the high frequency vibration is right on the money. They are both designed to filter out low frequency - high amplitude vibration. The XR is designed to handle both with it's dual gimbal design. It also helps amazingly well with the big hits by utilizing a low frequency mechanical isolator.
The XR isn't cheap but it's not as expensive as you might think. If you're on a tight schedule the XR will make it possible to get your shot in a few takes.
Contact me if you want more info. The guys at Pictorvision are very indie-friendly so it might be more affordable than you think.I can also steer you to a couple of alternatives if necessary.

Stephen Pizzo

[mdo]

Anyone ever shot off a hydrofoil? I know nothing about availability, just that it's a technology that becomes very stable at higher speeds. I know they build the technology into a variety of boats, but I expect they're scarce. May be worth asking a question or two.

Edit: Scratch that. A brief search on Google didn't turn up a single example of any commercially produced hydrofoil that could realistically be used for this kind of thing. Apparently they're too expensive to maintain to make them feasible for use outside of high-performance applications.

[David Groundwater]

Yes the big thuds will be the hardest to control.

No way to mount a steadicam alone, because you obviously miss out on the active correction of the gyro or operator.

What you need is a "steady pair of legs" or some shock absorbers between the boat hull and the camera.

mount mako head on platform suspended on thick bungy cords rigged from additional scaffolding if necessary.

alternatively, handheld with 3 k6 giros (1 nowhere near enough) attached to camera -obviously you'll never handhold the mako...

i've shot from the back of a motorbike off-road using giros on camera and they work so long as you take the major shocks out with your body.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

First of all, you need a VERY long and FAST boat, that don't jump from wave to wave, just from second to second ;-) Then, if you have no money, hang your camera on bungy chords, use stabiliser and let the camera (with a lot of additional weight) search the position, means, don't touch it to much, use wide angle, go closer to the boat, let enough room in the 4K picture and use stabiliser software to smooth the movement... something like that, used it before, and it worked quiet well.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Oh, see this link, it's a very easy to use system for helikoptershooting with a strong spring and some stabiliser, instead of the spring you may use the bungy chords... see http://www.helimount.ch/hm2.htm

[ewinghd]

Hey, I recently did a job for Meridian Yachts, shooting with a Sony F900R on the back of a Meridian 44' PilotHouse. My shoot was in Miami, so I contacted Cine Video Tech to rent the MakoHead. This unit did an amazing job as it kept the camera stable and level to the horizon, even while traveling at some very fast speeds (I can't tell you how fast since I wasn't driving.

The head itself is so simple to use,... a real "no brainer." The biggest issue for shooting with the MakoHead on water is to secure the tripod to the boat so there is absolutely NO movement. Crucial!!!! You must make sure the tripod on which the MakoHead and camera sits cannot move when the boat is traveling at high speeds and bouncing over waves. You'll be sorry,... I mean really sorry if it's not.

Do a web search for MakoHead. You can only rent the system ($1K/day) and there are rental houses on the West Coast.

Good Luck!
James

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/2855_1199330851.jpg

[Dominic Cochran]

You didn't mention any budget issues, have you thought of renting a helicopter with a Tyler mount? If you don't need to be right at water level this might work.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Didn't I just see a gyrostabilized steadicam like device in the off topic section a few months ago? It wouldn't kill the fine vibration but an optical stabilizer would take care of that.

Edit:
http://www.ajrevolution.com/AR-Revolution.aspx

Oh right I forgot it was only one axis of stabilization on the gyro.

Edit2:

Anyone make a gyro stabilized kite rig?

[Steve Gibby]

One solution could be to shoot from a trike - a two-seat, powered hang glider. Several years ago, for an ESPN television program shot in Poipu, Kauai I shot an entire air-to-air sequence of a hang glider. I sat in the front seat, the pilot in the back, and we towed the hang glider airborne from a cradle on the runway. The camera I shot handheld with was a mid-sized 3-chip DV camcorder (about 6 lbs). After towing the hang glider aloft, he circled over the south shore of Kauai, while we circled him and shot the air-to-air sequences. After landing I then shot long lens, land based tripod shots with a full-sized camera system, of the hang glider circling. The trike was part of the segment, so I also shot the trike taking off and landing.

The large main pics on my web site home page rotate each time you access the site, or refresh the home page, one of the 18 home page main pics has is of me in the front seat of the trike, hand holding a camera, as we prepare to takeoff on that Kauai shooting.
Link: www.cut4.tv

Here's an explanation of the trike:
http://www.ultraflight.com/issues/april02/theTrike.htm

A hand held shot from the front seat of a trike can be very stable if there's not a lot of turbulence in the air. A minimum-equipped RED One, safety-strapped to your wrist, with a wide angle lens, flying close to the boat you're shooting, may do the trick. Trikes can fly up to 70 mph. The trike would fly about 15' above the water, parallel to the boat, with both going maybe 45 mph. You could speed the boat up in post if you wanted.

There just may be a few guys in eastern Utah, relatively close to Lake Powell (St. George, Moab, etc.) who own/fly two-seat trikes.

One of my recurring business media projects for several years was a contract shooting job profiling a large boat rental firm at various lakes across the western USA. Boat-to-boat shots were a regular part of the productions - as were slim budgets to get them. We got creative, and always got the shots. Some guys solve difficult shots by throwing a lot of money at them, which is fine if you have it, but when budgets are limited you can still get the shots if you really brainstorm out the solutions.

If its real glassy water, hand held boat-to-boat shots that are very smooth are very achievable by and experienced hand held shooter - without a stabilization unit of any kind. Shoot in the morning glass...

Maybe some of this will help....good luck to you Tom...

[planet e]

having been on lake powell half a dozen times, here's my suggestions....

1) don't shoot in the main channel, find a side canyon that is big enough to shoot in, the water will smooth out substantially. much glassier there...and shoot early, before the wind and the other boaters chop things up...the lighting is more interesting, anyway. there's a zillion side canyons to shoot from, and it doesn't cost anything, you just have to spend some time scouting the right locations. you're certainly shooting at the right time of year, because there's just not that much traffic in the winter to chop things up.

2) rent one of those big-ass houseboats for a weekend and shoot from it. they have dual engines and can move pretty fast if the water is glassy. those big busses will smooth out a ton of the bumps that this little motorboat will feel. i spent a long weekend tooling around in one of those tanks, and you don't feel much of anything, even in the main channel. surely, one of these beasts in a large side canyon should do the trick.

plus, you can take shots from a bunch of different angles, including fabulous high angles from the upper deck or side-by-side from the lower deck. you will have more options. and there's lots of places, rails, etc., to stabilize with bungees. i shot a triathlon from the back of a pick-up truck last summer, and the footage was rock-solid because we bungeed the tripod to death, which completely eliminated the vibrations at better than 30mph (we were going more like 50, to stay ahead of some of the bikers in the flats), and took a little air out of the tires to smooth things out...i imagine renting one of these titanics will have a similar effect.

3) and do you really have to drive 30 mph, or can you create the illusion of speed? you can usually make a little bit of speed look like a lot, if you're shooting in motion. actually, 2 boats going the same speed side-by-side typically detract from the illusion of speed, rather than add to it. it will actually look faster if you differentiate the speeds of the moving objects, in some cases.