Anonymus . . . The Movie

[Josh Beadle]

I saw it last night - have a lesser opinion of Willy Shakespeare and Alexa now. Looked real video-ish. Blown highlights and compressed DR - just real flat and dull. Saw in a just newly remodeled theater where I have been recently impressed with the projection and sound system. Looking forward to seeing Babe w/Dragon Tat there soon for comparison

[George Butterfield]

I've read several, (there are many), books on the theme, Edward de Vere wrote under the pen name Shakespeare. It is a fascinating topic, showing how a lie can be perpetuated over many many generations. A UoT professor recently wrote an 800 page bogus book about the man from Stratford, he wrote pages about Shakespeare's wife, all total fabrications without references as there is nothing really known about the woman.

[Gabriele Turchi]

Looked real video-ish. Blown highlights and compressed DR - just real flat and dull.

i completely disagree

[Josh Beadle]

I imagine the Stratford Chamber of Commerce will fight any further research into the subject. William was and is a simple vehicle for others to benefit from. Also, for our public educators: it's a bit easier to tell the fairy tail as we know it rather than "Well see, the Queen had sex with her son which beget another son . . . son #1 / lover was a tortured artistic soul with no desire to rule instead pouring his life into the non-noble pursuit of creative writing for which he needed a illiterate pen man . . . enter camera left . . . Shakespeare

Oh and, the first feature shot on Alexa was visually flat in my view

[Steve Sherrick]

Looked real video-ish. Blown highlights and compressed DR - just real flat and dull. Saw in a just newly remodeled theater where I have been recently impressed with the projection and sound system. Looking forward to seeing Babe w/Dragon Tat there soon for comparison
Josh, same rules that apply when judging RED footage, don't go by final results. You'll be amazed at what decisions are made to arrive at some of these looks, or perhaps the theater is not up to spec, whatever the case may be. Alexa generally doesn't have the problems you mentioned, worked with it a number of times now. Where it lacks is in resolution (which some DPs may be ok with by the way) and of course is a much more expensive system. But generalizations based on a particular film, never accomplish much because of the variables involved. Now if you had seen the original footage in a calibrated room, then it might be a bit more intriguing.

By the way, not trying to aim this at you. It's just I hear this a lot, and then I think back to shoots I'm on where I get to see original footage and then what is done to it, and realize people will never see what I saw. :-)

[Brad Hawkins]

Josh, same rules that apply when judging RED footage, don't go by final results. You'll be amazed at what decisions are made to arrive at some of these looks, or perhaps the theater is not up to spec, whatever the case may be. Alexa generally doesn't have the problems you mentioned, worked with it a number of times now. Where it lacks is in resolution (which some DPs may be ok with by the way) and of course is a much more expensive system. But generalizations based on a particular film, never accomplish much because of the variables involved. Now if you had seen the original footage in a calibrated room, then it might be a bit more intriguing.

By the way, not trying to aim this at you. It's just I hear this a lot, and then I think back to shoots I'm on where I get to see original footage and then what is done to it, and realize people will never see what I saw. :-)

Well said Steve!

[Josh Beadle]

Who cares what the raw footage looks like on a specialized system - that is not reality. I saw what I saw and it wasn't a good day for video in cinema.

[Michael Millichamp]

If the Alexa wasn't a great camera, people wouldn't use it. Same with the Red.

Don't be that ignorant to completely blow off a camera just because you are so stuck with Red.

There are both amazing cameras and deserve to be used.

[joe hedge]

Drive w/Ryan Gosling was shot on Alexa - watch that opening sequence and tell us the Alexa looks flat and video-y

I had some extremely knowledgeable people, who CC Red regularly, tell me at the SMPTE conference that the Sony F3 was the current champ for out-of-camera image quality

Really it's a great time to be doing what we do, with so many great cameras and options

[Michael Millichamp]

Drive w/Ryan Gosling was shot on Alexa - watch that opening sequence and tell us the Alexa looks flat and video-y



Totally forgot about Drive being shot on that.

It was a beautiful film.

[David Collard]

Well, it's hard to really complain about the film being shot on Alexa and it had "such and such" technical issues. I've been to Imax theatres that weren't
projected/calibrated correctly.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed the film since I have a lot of knowledge about Shakepeare. Without giving anything away, it's a miracle his writings survived.
Our generation with the Epic or Alexa etc. faces a similar challenge as the survival of "Shakespeare's" writings...How will our digital data be interpreted in the future or will all the ones and zeroes be interpretable? Somehow "Shakespeare's" stuff survived based on plain ink and paper.
Visual story telling's very survival, whether it be Epic or Alexa may depend on an output to good old fashioned film.

[Josh Beadle]

Drive was a good looking lame plot movie. I was impressed with the low / practical light performance throughout. Funny, I read that some lady is actually suing the movie theater for a refund: "there wasn't any Driving in this movie". Not that every movie should be disclosed as specifically as "Snakes on a Plane" for title/content but I must say if you're going to ripoff the '70 revenge Death Wish etc genre then at least put a chase scene or two for us simpletons . . . especially if that is the whole premise of the movie: ie he's a professional get away driver. If I want a sappy love story I'll coin up for a Jenn Aniston flick.

[Dan Kanes]

I usually use OFF TOPIC for movie reviews - and I try to spell the titles right.

In any case - haven't seen Anonymous yet, but I thought drive looked spectacular, and I actually loved the story. Didn't expect any more, or any less than what it delivered - but I digress - I'll throw in my two Pence after watching Anonymous over in O/T.

[Josh Beadle]

thanks Teach

[Dan Kanes]

No Problem, Son.

[drew sandoval]

I haven't seen Anonymous yet, but he images from Alexa blows me away. Drive loked great, it wasn't til after the movie I read in AC it was Alexa, In Time was a sharp looking picture, and it is used on my three favorite tv shows, CSI Miami, Hawaii 5-0, and NCIS LA (not great shows, but my favorite to watch). I can;'t wait for Epic pictures to start being released in the next year, and for Scarlet pictures in 2-3 years.

[Josh Snyder]

OP must be joking. Alexa produces way more film like image than EPIC. The biggest issue with EPIC vs Alexa is that EPIC has videoish look and flatter image. Alexa is really close to Arriflex which obviously looks gorgeus. Just watch the newest Pirates of Caribbean or any other movie/trailer shot with EPIC. Then compare those to films or trailers shot with Alexa and you'll see.

[Deanan]

OP must be joking. Alexa produces way more film like image than EPIC. The biggest issue with EPIC vs Alexa is that EPIC has videoish look and flatter image. Alexa is really close to Arriflex which obviously looks gorgeus. Just watch the newest Pirates of Caribbean or any other movie/trailer shot with EPIC. Then compare those to films or trailers shot with Alexa and you'll see.

Pirates was shot with RED One and graded aggressively with a LUT that compensated for 3D systems and shows less range than was actually in the original footage (I was there during parts of the shoot and had access to original footage).

Either way, it's easy to make either Alexa or Epic or RED One look flat or great.

Saying Alexa looks like a mechanical camera without naming a film stock is kinda funny though.

[Dan Kanes]

OP must be joking. Alexa produces way more film like image than EPIC. The biggest issue with EPIC vs Alexa is that EPIC has videoish look and flatter image. Alexa is really close to Arriflex which obviously looks gorgeus. Just watch the newest Pirates of Caribbean or any other movie/trailer shot with EPIC. Then compare those to films or trailers shot with Alexa and you'll see.

Keep Trolling Dude.

Have you ever even used an Epic Or Alexa? I work with both practically every week. Spend some time behind the lens or at least next to it, and know what you are talking about before coming in here.

[Josh Snyder]

People can go watch the trailers from youtube and see. Yes don't lie.

[Josh Beadle]

Keep Trolling Dude.

Have you ever even used an Epic Or Alexa? I work with both practically every week. Spend some time behind the lens or at least next to it, and know what you are talking about before coming in here.

When does knowledgeable become misplaced self righteous snotty . . . right about here

[Peter Dmitriyev]

People can go watch the trailers from youtube and see. Yes don't lie.

LOL Brother you're a Canon DSLR owner on a Red digital CINEMA owner. Not many people take you seriously here. Have you ever even USED a Red or Alexa?

[Peter Dmitriyev]

And p.s. I thought Drive was a horrible mis-cast movie and LOOKED video-y and awful. I was not a fan of its look nor of the story, sorry that's just me. I know every DP in the industry creamed their pants about that movie but I wasn't impressed.

[Josh Beadle]

And p.s. I thought Drive was a horrible mis-cast movie and LOOKED video-y and awful. I was not a fan of its look nor of the story, sorry that's just me. I know every DP in the industry creamed their pants about that movie but I wasn't impressed.

Thank you and amen

[Andrew Rieger]

And p.s. I thought Drive was a horrible mis-cast movie and LOOKED video-y and awful. I was not a fan of its look nor of the story, sorry that's just me. I know every DP in the industry creamed their pants about that movie but I wasn't impressed.

You could not be more wrong. Drive was easily the best film of the year and the casting was perfect. The opening driving scene was one of the best openings in film history.

People need to stop complaining about digital not looking like film. Listen, it's digital, you can make it look close but it will never look 100% like film. If you insist that it looks like film, shoot on film. Digital is the present and film is dead, People need to accept that. 60 years from now, people will be complaining that their hologram movies do not look as good as 8K Red footage, "Ah man you remember the 8K Red, man that stuff was gorgeous." Besides, with digital projection, grain reduction and 4K scanning, film is looking more and more digital if you ask me. I have seen films that use both 35mm and Red and I honestly could not tell because it all looked like it was shot on Red.

The cinematography in Drive was superb and the Alexa did a great job considering that it was filmed to a SONY HDCAM deck since Arriraw was not available at the time. In Time looked great as well. I love the Epic but the Alexa is a great camera as well and with the rumored 4K upgrade, it will be a monster.

[Josh Beadle]

You could not be more wrong. Drive was easily the best film of the year and the casting was perfect. The opening driving scene was one of the best openings in film history.

Joking . . . right? "Best opening in film history" Now I know yawl down there in Texas have a nasty habit of overstatin things a spell . . . but golly jeez hoss . . . even Top Gun's opening blows away this cliche redux. Not to mention: Citizen Kane, Reservoir Dogs, 2001 Space O, Trainspotting . . . oh heck, even Raiders or Jaws.

I thought the cine looked good for an Arri

[Christoffer Glans]

I've worked with Alexa, I've graded Alexa footage, I've edited Alexa. It's a superb camera, the images, the ease of use both on set and in post makes it actually a more user friendly camera then any Red. I just don't think 1080p is enough and I don't like being limited to what was shot, I want RAW format and Alexa is very clumsy when it comes to arri-RAW.
So, I prefer Red, but I'm not an idiot, it's a great camera, no one who ever used it could debate otherwise.

As for Anonymous, It might just be a choice of the cinematographer or Roland. In 2012 there are a few really awful looking shots, even though they clearly had the budget to do better. A camera is ALWAYS in the hands of a user and the user has their own view on what is good quality, they may also not be good or don't know how to really use digital cinema cameras.

There are a lot of factors involved, but it's still not the cameras fault because it's a great camera, period.



Then there's the debacle with Arri's involvement in the hacking of Red, but until we know the truth we don't know if Arri stole things and put into the Alexa development.

[Dan Kanes]

When does knowledgeable become misplaced self righteous snotty . . . right about here

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

As I see it, it's hard to judge any piece of equipment until you've used it.

Sure we can load up a clip in YouTube and watch it. The thing is, there are so many humans and processes in between what takes place in the camera and what we see on the screen that there is little way of knowing what caused what to look like what unless we are intimately involved in the process.

Do you think 2001 a space odyssey negatives came out of the camera and looked ready to project?

No - because a negative is not projection ready.
How much time was spent slaving over hot negative densitometers and lab dials?

One thing we are talking about here has almost nothing to do with cameras and camera technology.

It's non-technical people doing technical jobs.
Non Artists doing jobs that need artists.
Producers cutting corners to save a buck, and believe me - there are many more corners to either turn or be cut.
Oh and let's not forget critics. Plenty of arm-chair-quarterbacking to be found on the Internet.

I fully believe in people's rights to express their opinions, but I also feel that we have the right to question a methodology of criticism.

I mean, the Internet is filled with high criticism for others, and also immediate belief and reception of any seemingly true published results - no matter how flawed.

Just saying, it's a wide world out there - dont just experience it through YouTube .

[Michael Millichamp]

You could not be more wrong. Drive was easily the best film of the year and the casting was perfect. The opening driving scene was one of the best openings in film history.



Agreed. And the ending is literally perfect. What a way to end a movie.

[Josh Beadle]

Agreed. The ending was perfect. It let me leave the theater to get a beer and clear my head of the conflicted plot line.

Cheers guys!

[Tim Hole]

Why so much animosity...

I thought Drive was a wonderful piece of cinema. I think it lightly borrowed from Walter Hill's The Driver in the opening scene, but no more than Leon borrowed from Le Samourai. Overall it was nicely underplayed, had a great soundtrack, was shot beautifully and was engaging to watch. I had my fingers crossed that they he didn't screw the ending up, which he didn't...

You're entitled to dislike the film of course, that's your right but there is no little need for such derisive sarcastic candor.

[Josh Beadle]

So adamently approving and advocating a movie product is OK - but equally an equally disapproving position is "derisive sarcastic candor". Got it . . . oh wait: It's freakin "Drive" not "Gone with the Wind"!

The OP had to do with the Arri look and feel. Let's stick to that

[Dan Kanes]

The OP had to do with the Arri look and feel. Let's stick to that

So, what is it doing in the Red Discussion section and not Off Topic?

Not trying to harsh your mellow here - just curious?

[Josh Beadle]

My mistake - thought discussions about Video in Cinema was a related Discussion to RED. My bad. If you feel it important enough to have it moved please contact a Mod

[Andrew Rieger]

Joking . . . right? "Best opening in film history" Now I know yawl down there in Texas have a nasty habit of overstatin things a spell . . . but golly jeez hoss . . . even Top Gun's opening blows away this cliche redux. Not to mention: Citizen Kane, Reservoir Dogs, 2001 Space O, Trainspotting . . . oh heck, even Raiders or Jaws.

I thought the cine looked good for an Arri

I said one of the best openings in film history, not the best. Please read my original post. I'm from SoCali BTW and still live there, just sayin.

[Timur Civan]

Drive w/Ryan Gosling was shot on Alexa - watch that opening sequence and tell us the Alexa looks flat and video-y

I had some extremely knowledgeable people, who CC Red regularly, tell me at the SMPTE conference that the Sony F3 was the current champ for out-of-camera image quality

Really it's a great time to be doing what we do, with so many great cameras and options

I find that hard to believe. I mean, w/ LOG and 444 capture, yes the F3 is incredible for the price... but hardly in alexa/epic territory.

But it does pull up a mean 4th place under the F35......

[Dan Kanes]

Since we are picking each other apart...

We native Angelenos call it SoCal if we feel the need to generalize and abbreviate at the same time. But I digress...

I'd consider San diego more "provencially quaint" than much of Texas.

Certainly more things I respect and enjoy have come from Texas than San Diego - high technology as well as art.

[Dan Kanes]

I find that hard to believe. I mean, w/ LOG and 444 capture, yes the F3 is incredible for the price... but hardly in alexa/epic territory.

But it does pull up a mean 4th place under the F35......

I must be one of the few who find the f35 look to be abysmal. Certainly i'd choose F3 if I had to choke down a day of Sony shooting.

[Josh Snyder]

One of the biggest reasons people in the industry prefers ARRI/Alexa is that it looks more filmic than RED/EPIC. RED looks more of hi def video.

[Kacey Baker]

I saw it last night - have a lesser opinion of Willy Shakespeare and Alexa now. Looked real video-ish. Blown highlights and compressed DR - just real flat and dull.

I take it you haven't seen Contagion?

We can all hate on movies, but the next one always looks better using the same equipment.

The hating should be on our own movies we shoot as aspiring film makers, we're yet to showcase an end product half as good as both Anonymous or Contagion... maybe we have? Maybe I blinked? :)

[Dan Kanes]

@ Josh Snyder - I disagree with your broadsweeping generalization.

I'm going to generalize that in my opinion, viewing on a high definition monitor, on a set, that the Alexa looks more like a High Definition Video Camera. Why? Because of the motion characteristic, and the fact that it is slightly more than 1080p being downsampled to 1080p - so really it is a "digital video camera" as defined by the fact that it is producing "video" images as its output (barring arri-raw of course).

The Epic is A Digital Cinema Camera - because of the imaging philosophy behind what it does. See, it records a series of digital negatives - raw stills - at 24 or more frames per second. This is much more akin to "real" "film" "camera"

It is the Imaging Philosophy behind the Red system that makes the pictures so good.

The "Smoothing" characteristic of Red's even higher oversampling is what makes it look "like film."

Anyone can see this evident in the "Milk Girls" clip produced with the original Red One Prototypes. In fact, when I saw that footage at first, I was one of the people who said "There is no way this came out of a digital camera - this must be film and this can't be real. This was a long time ago. Needless to say color science and other technologies have improved since then.

I would reckon, and I'm sure that Graeme Nattress could add some deeper fill-in here, the reason Red looks like film is that it closer emulates MTF characteristic of how film emulsion sees and records an image, when compared to a digital grid with a relatively closer level of real detail to perceived detail - i.e. the pixels in a 2.5k/1080 pixel image can actually be visibly picked out by our brains, where as a 3.5k or higher image "overwhelms" our brain stem and rings the "magic bell" in our brain that says "this is the intersection of reality and fiction that sparks our imagination" sort of the uncanny valley of the dream-world, if you will.

Two reasons that assistants, and generally hype-ists on the internet prefer Alexa:

One: "traditional" ergonomics - really "tradition" in general. Motion picture workers are notoriously averse to change. They are cranky. Learning anything new is often very painful and difficult for people who have "always done it by the book" - this is where Motion Picture industry workers and the military share some characteristics. We are often a bunch of surly misfits, but we have been told that:
1. There is a book of traditions we should always follow
2. There is no other way but the "right way"
3. It must done QUICKLY and with High Precision.
Arri is a name that carries over from the film days - days that many assistants, and some camera men and women yearn for - they built a camera that looks like an arri film camera. It works much like an arri film camera. It is literally idiot proof. It almost doesn't matter where you set your T stop. Almost. You will still get a picture

Two:
People hype Alexa. Name brand people, recognizable people. People that even non-industry types would recognize. The same could be said of Red. There are plenty of names that tout Red. It's a fine line between being The Rebel and being The Establishment. It's very hard to have it both ways. Nine out of ten times, Traditionalists - assistants espcially, want to go with the name they trust.

I've actually heard assistants say that Red is what killed their days of working with film.

This has created a vendetta in their minds. They hate Red. They don't understand or know Red, but they hate it.

And let me tell you - film workers are a surly bunch. They hold grudges - in fact many are so unwilling to even attempt to learn that they bad mouth the camera. You never hear anyone bad mouth an Alexa. Never mind that they didn't have playback when it came out, never mind that I've seen them crash and burn as many times (literally) as I've seen a Red One crash and burn. Once you upset a film-workers traditionalist world-view, it is very hard to gain ground. Yet, Red still has gained a phenomenal traction in this industry.

I for one, am deeply, deeply involved in it now as a "Red Person"

Why?

Because I spent a lot of time with it, and I find its image just so pleasing and rewarding to work with.

I don't feel that way about Alexa. Sure - I think Alexa is neat, and actually the dynamic range blew me away when I first saw it - but if you dig a little deeper you will say - well why is there a sort of constant Halation - OH I SEE - it's that ULTRA CONTRAST FILTER THEY USE FOR AN OLPF! Now I GET IT! That is if you are a technical nerd, like me.

Well - Mr. Snyder - it's time for me to go to bed because in the morning, I have to go to work, You see - I'm working with the Alexa tomorrow - and because Editors Still use Avid - and they want a Rental on their Adrenalin, or obnoxious Nitris or whatever confounded OLD as hell Avid hardware accelerator they have that doesn't support Prores, I have to ingest a supposedly ready to edit Prores format into the computer, apply a color transform, and then output Avid MXF files - so yep - I have to go from one compressed format, to another stupidly compressed format just to make the footage editable because someone doesn't want to change their workflow pipeline - oh, and since there isn't really decent hardware acceleration for that, its going to take me Time. So, now I have to work with a camera I personally don't think is the bees knees to make a crappy, old as hell workflow work, so that I can afford to continue the Semi-Luxe lifestyle I've gotten accustomed to.

But, Mr. Snyder - before I go I'd like to offer up a free invitation to you.

If you want to come to Los Angeles, and Rent or Borrow an Alexa from someone here, I will provide An Epic M, and a Lens package and we can shoot something - really - anything you choose - and I guarantee I can make the results from the Epic M better or indistinguishable from the Alexa. You can even choose the audience you want to vote on the blind-boxed images - and you can also judge for yourself.

I will handle the imaging pipeline for the Epic, and you can handle the image pipeline for the Alexa - or have the person of your choice do that for you.

I just need a one-week notice before we perform your test shoot.

If your test-audience finds the Epic images indistinguishable or better than the Alexa images, then you must publicly apologize for your hyperbolic statements.
If your test-audience finds the Epic images somewhat lacking, then I will eat my words and publicly state that the Alexa is "more film-like" in the eyes of the average viewer.

Let me know.

[Kacey Baker]

If you want to come to Los Angeles, and Rent or Borrow an Alexa from someone here, I will provide An Epic M, and a Lens package and we can shoot something - really - anything you choose - and I guarantee I can make the results from the Epic M better or indistinguishable from the Alexa. You can even choose the audience you want to vote on the blind-boxed images - and you can also judge for yourself.

I will handle the imaging pipeline for the Epic, and you can handle the image pipeline for the Alexa - or have the person of your choice do that for you.

I just need a one-week notice before we perform your test shoot.

If your test-audience finds the Epic images indistinguishable or better than the Alexa images, then you must publicly apologize for your hyperbolic statements.
If your test-audience finds the Epic images somewhat lacking, then I will eat my words and publicly state that the Alexa is "more film-like" in the eyes of the average viewer.

Let me know.

Would love to see this happen. Both footage uploads should not reveal the dop or camera used, that would be interesting :)

[Dan Kanes]

@Kacey Baker - sorry if I was hostile to you in the past. Cheers mate.

[Kacey Baker]

@Kacey Baker - sorry if I was hostile to you in the past. Cheers mate.

Sorry - I'm not comprehending your post?

Was I out of line?

[Dan Kanes]

Sorry - I'm not comprehending your post?

Was I out of line?

No, I think we just disagreed on some stuff in some other threads or something, and I was probably a bit hyperbolic. I'm not sure. I'm just mending the past if we had any bad blood.

[Rohan B]

One of the biggest reasons people in the industry prefers ARRI/Alexa is that it looks more filmic than RED/EPIC. RED looks more of hi def video.

Have you ever shot anything on the alexa or red mx or epic????????????? People in the industry prefer arri alexa over epic??? Which industry are you talking about??????? Whcih people are you talking about??? There are already many more red epic hand machined cameras than the total numbers of alexa, and the production versions x has just warmed up. Way more movies are being shot on red epic than on alexa,and i am just talking about hollywood. Have you seen the trailer of the amazing spider-man and underworld awakening?????? and have you seen the trailer of The AVENGERS or IN TIME????? Saying that alexa looks more filmic and cinematic and epic looking like high def videoish is the biggest "FUCKINGG BULLSHITT" that has been posted here!!!!!! Open your eyes and ears dude,see and hear whats going on around the globe man, and analyze it in your precious grey matter and then post your "SHIT" here.......

Hope this enlightens you a bit.......

[AnthonyFlores]

Drive was a good looking lame plot movie. I was impressed with the low / practical light performance throughout. Funny, I read that some lady is actually suing the movie theater for a refund: "there wasn't any Driving in this movie". Not that every movie should be disclosed as specifically as "Snakes on a Plane" for title/content but I must say if you're going to ripoff the '70 revenge Death Wish etc genre then at least put a chase scene or two for us simpletons . . . especially if that is the whole premise of the movie: ie he's a professional get away driver. If I want a sappy love story I'll coin up for a Jenn Aniston flick.

Actually loved Drive in almost every way, including the plot, style and look. Yes, seemed less sharp than Red features but sucked me in and really admire the way it was shot and executed. Yes, the plot was simple and low in dialogue ... much like the old Sergio Leone westerns, which could have been accused of being cheesy -- but had huge impact on later greats like Tarantino. I loved those as well, so go figure.

I will have to see Anonymous, but if your comments about Drive are any indication, probably will like it.

Oh well, disagreement is a healthy part of any forum :)

[Kacey Baker]

@Kacey Baker - sorry if I was hostile to you in the past. Cheers mate.

How humble, thank you, same goes. However, I probably deserved it.

[AnthonyFlores]

You could not be more wrong. Drive was easily the best film of the year and the casting was perfect. The opening driving scene was one of the best openings in film history.

Amen. Not everybody loved it, but for me one of the more engrossing movies I've seen in a long time. But I was a big fan of the old spaghetti westerns (which Drive reminds me a lot of) and consider them to be absolutely brilliant filmmaking. But not everything agrees with that either.

And of course, I praise the cast and crew for that film, not the Alexa. Could have been done equal or better with an Epic, I'm sure .....

[Lucas Hall]

Arri is the IBM of the cinema industry. Choosing an Alexa is like choosing an IBM. It doesn't mean it's perfect or it won't fail. It just means that your peers won't be critical of your decision because it's safe. It's the safety bubble that the old guard can comfortably and cautiously transition from film to digital.

Sony is Microsoft.

Red is Apple.

[Bob Torrance]

Have you ever shot anything on the alexa or red mx or epic????????????? People in the industry prefer arri alexa over epic??? Which industry are you talking about??????? Whcih people are you talking about??? There are already many more red epic hand machined cameras than the total numbers of alexa, and the production versions x has just warmed up. Way more movies are being shot on red epic than on alexa,and i am just talking about hollywood. Have you seen the trailer of the amazing spider-man and underworld awakening?????? and have you seen the trailer of The AVENGERS or IN TIME????? Saying that alexa looks more filmic and cinematic and epic looking like high def videoish is the biggest "FUCKINGG BULLSHITT" that has been posted here!!!!!! Open your eyes and ears dude,see and hear whats going on around the globe man, and analyze it in your precious grey matter and then post your "SHIT" here.......

Hope this enlightens you a bit.......


This might be one reason a lot of people in the business look down at RED. It's really a shame. The EPIC is a good camera, so is the Alexa. Epics are used on more 3D and Alexas are used on more TV and 2D features. The industry is way ahead of this crap, both cameras are accepted completely. Next up Alexa Studio, F65, Aaton 4K, Panavision cameras. What matters is what the production wants to use.

[Rohan B]

This might be one reason a lot of people in the business look down at RED. It's really a shame. The EPIC is a good camera, so is the Alexa. Epics are used on more 3D and Alexas are used on more TV and 2D features. The industry is way ahead of this crap, both cameras are accepted completely. Next up Alexa Studio, F65, Aaton 4K, Panavision cameras. What matters is what the production wants to use.

Which people look down at red man which people??????????? I want to know???? where are they?? the guys who don't like red like wally pfister and chris nolan dislike digital as a whole, they don't like alexa as well, they will convert only when digital surpasses film in terms of technical superiority i.e. more dynamic range, latitude and sensitivity than film and better color reproduction ,range and color depth...... which i am sure monstro dragon will bring. epics are being used for a lot of televisiom series and 2d features as well. All of you guys who are still saying that the industry is looking down at red are completely blind, you are not checking the real world scenario, just reading some stupid posts and making stupid theories for yourselves....

Red epic is the digital cinema camera that is being used for most of the movies that are being shot digitally and that constitutes both 2d and 3d....

[Francesco Bonomo]

This might be one reason a lot of people in the business look down at RED. It's really a shame. The EPIC is a good camera, so is the Alexa. Epics are used on more 3D and Alexas are used on more TV and 2D features. The industry is way ahead of this crap, both cameras are accepted completely. Next up Alexa Studio, F65, Aaton 4K, Panavision cameras. What matters is what the production wants to use.

I kind of agree with this, Bob, though I'd like to think that the "What matters is what the production wants to use" part would change soon and the role of cinematographer in choosing the right camera and tools for the project would be taken in more serious consideration even on smaller jobs and not just on huge feature films.


All of you guys who are still saying that the industry is looking down at red are completely blind, you are not checking the real world scenario, just reading some stupid posts and making stupid theories for yourselves....

Rohan, may I ask you how many 35mm, 16mm, Red, Alexa, Panavision, Sony projects have you personally shot or worked on? Or where do you get your "Red epic is the digital cinema camera that is being used for most of the movies that are being shot digitally" figures? Do you have a list of ALL the movies which are being shot digitally, in the US and elsewhere, to back such a claim? And above all, is it really so important?

To deny that there are some people who are overly fanatical about this or that camera, or against them, is to ignore the real world scenario you refer to. Good thing is, in the real world, it matters very little. When you're working there's simply not enough time to waste by engaging in silly discussion about which camera "rocks" or "sucks". Some cameras are good for some things, others are not. Some people have personal preferences and are clearly biased, others (the majority) don't and just use whatever tool they find appropriate for the job at hand or, if the budget is limited, the tool they can afford.

[Dan Kanes]

Which people look down at red man which people??????????? I want to know???? where are they??...

Easy to answer , as I see many of them every week.

I'm being honest because I personally love Red, and it disheartens me sometimes.

It's camera assistants in Los Angeles - and if any indication serves, New York, and other cities they used to shoot movies on film as well.

Certainly not all assistants, but MANY - because like I said, many are averse to change, and learning something new Is not in their preferred gamut.

I could say more here, but I think you get what I'm saying.

By the way, many sets are like junior high school in terms of gossip and pettiness.

Just sayin'

All my close friends and assistants are at least open-minded towards technology.

We are Generation X for the most part though.

[Andrew Rieger]

Since we are picking each other apart...

We native Angelenos call it SoCal if we feel the need to generalize and abbreviate at the same time. But I digress...

I'd consider San diego more "provencially quaint" than much of Texas.

Certainly more things I respect and enjoy have come from Texas than San Diego - high technology as well as art.

The guy who was making fun of me being in Texas said he was from SoCali so I was making fun of that in my response. I call it SoCal as well. Never heard anyone say SoCali.

[Josh Beadle]

u guyz r funy

[Antony M]

Would love to see this happen. Both footage uploads should not reveal the dop or camera used, that would be interesting :)

+1

Antony

[Josh Beadle]

Any camera over $60K can deliver 1080@24 equally well to post grading. Don't need a Death Match Shoot Out to settle that argument and certainly not why most folks purchase an RED.

[Kenneth Williams]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.

As I see it, it's hard to judge any piece of equipment until you've used it.

Sure we can load up a clip in YouTube and watch it. The thing is, there are so many humans and processes in between what takes place in the camera and what we see on the screen that there is little way of knowing what caused what to look like what unless we are intimately involved in the process.

Do you think 2001 a space odyssey negatives came out of the camera and looked ready to project?

No - because a negative is not projection ready.
How much time was spent slaving over hot negative densitometers and lab dials?

One thing we are talking about here has almost nothing to do with cameras and camera technology.

It's non-technical people doing technical jobs.
Non Artists doing jobs that need artists.
Producers cutting corners to save a buck, and believe me - there are many more corners to either turn or be cut.
Oh and let's not forget critics. Plenty of arm-chair-quarterbacking to be found on the Internet.

I fully believe in people's rights to express their opinions, but I also feel that we have the right to question a methodology of criticism.

I mean, the Internet is filled with high criticism for others, and also immediate belief and reception of any seemingly true published results - no matter how flawed.

Just saying, it's a wide world out there - dont just experience it through YouTube .


Well said. The best thing that a "TRUE" filmmaker can do is simply shoot. Then shoot again. 10,000 hours make you great at what you do. The clock is ticking.

[Kenneth Williams]

@ Josh Snyder - I disagree with your broadsweeping generalization.

I'm going to generalize that in my opinion, viewing on a high definition monitor, on a set, that the Alexa looks more like a High Definition Video Camera. Why? Because of the motion characteristic, and the fact that it is slightly more than 1080p being downsampled to 1080p - so really it is a "digital video camera" as defined by the fact that it is producing "video" images as its output (barring arri-raw of course).

The Epic is A Digital Cinema Camera - because of the imaging philosophy behind what it does. See, it records a series of digital negatives - raw stills - at 24 or more frames per second. This is much more akin to "real" "film" "camera"

It is the Imaging Philosophy behind the Red system that makes the pictures so good.

The "Smoothing" characteristic of Red's even higher oversampling is what makes it look "like film."

Anyone can see this evident in the "Milk Girls" clip produced with the original Red One Prototypes. In fact, when I saw that footage at first, I was one of the people who said "There is no way this came out of a digital camera - this must be film and this can't be real. This was a long time ago. Needless to say color science and other technologies have improved since then.

I would reckon, and I'm sure that Graeme Nattress could add some deeper fill-in here, the reason Red looks like film is that it closer emulates MTF characteristic of how film emulsion sees and records an image, when compared to a digital grid with a relatively closer level of real detail to perceived detail - i.e. the pixels in a 2.5k/1080 pixel image can actually be visibly picked out by our brains, where as a 3.5k or higher image "overwhelms" our brain stem and rings the "magic bell" in our brain that says "this is the intersection of reality and fiction that sparks our imagination" sort of the uncanny valley of the dream-world, if you will.

Two reasons that assistants, and generally hype-ists on the internet prefer Alexa:

One: "traditional" ergonomics - really "tradition" in general. Motion picture workers are notoriously averse to change. They are cranky. Learning anything new is often very painful and difficult for people who have "always done it by the book" - this is where Motion Picture industry workers and the military share some characteristics. We are often a bunch of surly misfits, but we have been told that:
1. There is a book of traditions we should always follow
2. There is no other way but the "right way"
3. It must done QUICKLY and with High Precision.
Arri is a name that carries over from the film days - days that many assistants, and some camera men and women yearn for - they built a camera that looks like an arri film camera. It works much like an arri film camera. It is literally idiot proof. It almost doesn't matter where you set your T stop. Almost. You will still get a picture

Two:
People hype Alexa. Name brand people, recognizable people. People that even non-industry types would recognize. The same could be said of Red. There are plenty of names that tout Red. It's a fine line between being The Rebel and being The Establishment. It's very hard to have it both ways. Nine out of ten times, Traditionalists - assistants espcially, want to go with the name they trust.

I've actually heard assistants say that Red is what killed their days of working with film.

This has created a vendetta in their minds. They hate Red. They don't understand or know Red, but they hate it.

And let me tell you - film workers are a surly bunch. They hold grudges - in fact many are so unwilling to even attempt to learn that they bad mouth the camera. You never hear anyone bad mouth an Alexa. Never mind that they didn't have playback when it came out, never mind that I've seen them crash and burn as many times (literally) as I've seen a Red One crash and burn. Once you upset a film-workers traditionalist world-view, it is very hard to gain ground. Yet, Red still has gained a phenomenal traction in this industry.

I for one, am deeply, deeply involved in it now as a "Red Person"

Why?

Because I spent a lot of time with it, and I find its image just so pleasing and rewarding to work with.

I don't feel that way about Alexa. Sure - I think Alexa is neat, and actually the dynamic range blew me away when I first saw it - but if you dig a little deeper you will say - well why is there a sort of constant Halation - OH I SEE - it's that ULTRA CONTRAST FILTER THEY USE FOR AN OLPF! Now I GET IT! That is if you are a technical nerd, like me.

Well - Mr. Snyder - it's time for me to go to bed because in the morning, I have to go to work, You see - I'm working with the Alexa tomorrow - and because Editors Still use Avid - and they want a Rental on their Adrenalin, or obnoxious Nitris or whatever confounded OLD as hell Avid hardware accelerator they have that doesn't support Prores, I have to ingest a supposedly ready to edit Prores format into the computer, apply a color transform, and then output Avid MXF files - so yep - I have to go from one compressed format, to another stupidly compressed format just to make the footage editable because someone doesn't want to change their workflow pipeline - oh, and since there isn't really decent hardware acceleration for that, its going to take me Time. So, now I have to work with a camera I personally don't think is the bees knees to make a crappy, old as hell workflow work, so that I can afford to continue the Semi-Luxe lifestyle I've gotten accustomed to.

But, Mr. Snyder - before I go I'd like to offer up a free invitation to you.

If you want to come to Los Angeles, and Rent or Borrow an Alexa from someone here, I will provide An Epic M, and a Lens package and we can shoot something - really - anything you choose - and I guarantee I can make the results from the Epic M better or indistinguishable from the Alexa. You can even choose the audience you want to vote on the blind-boxed images - and you can also judge for yourself.

I will handle the imaging pipeline for the Epic, and you can handle the image pipeline for the Alexa - or have the person of your choice do that for you.

I just need a one-week notice before we perform your test shoot.

If your test-audience finds the Epic images indistinguishable or better than the Alexa images, then you must publicly apologize for your hyperbolic statements.
If your test-audience finds the Epic images somewhat lacking, then I will eat my words and publicly state that the Alexa is "more film-like" in the eyes of the average viewer.

Let me know.

Well said! Remember when Avid came out and editors hated it? They claimed it would be the downfall of civilization!

[Kenneth Williams]

Any camera over $60K can deliver 1080@24 equally well to post grading. Don't need a Death Match Shoot Out to settle that argument and certainly not why most folks purchase an RED.

wow

[Collier Landry]

We Gen X'rs love our Technology! RED Rocks!

[Bob Torrance]

Which people look down at red man which people??????????? I want to know???? where are they?? the guys who don't like red like wally pfister and chris nolan dislike digital as a whole, they don't like alexa as well, they will convert only when digital surpasses film in terms of technical superiority i.e. more dynamic range, latitude and sensitivity than film and better color reproduction ,range and color depth...... which i am sure monstro dragon will bring. epics are being used for a lot of televisiom series and 2d features as well. All of you guys who are still saying that the industry is looking down at red are completely blind, you are not checking the real world scenario, just reading some stupid posts and making stupid theories for yourselves....

Red epic is the digital cinema camera that is being used for most of the movies that are being shot digitally and that constitutes both 2d and 3d....

The point I was trying to make is that people on this site go nuts defending the RED cameras. That makes people suspicious. Relax, REDs are the bomb. I rent MXs, EPICS and Alexas. They all have their place, and add to that a half of a dozen new cameras very soon. Soon it will be about picking looks (kinda like filmstocks). Someone did mention ACs trash talking the Epics. It happens, probably because the parts to build a whole feature system are still missing (I do 85% low budget features). I have seen digital projection of the trailer for "HUGO" and "Dragon Tatoo' . I have seen digital of "Drive", "Intime", Social Network", "Contagion" etc. All on a huge screen. They all looked great. It is no long RED vs Alexa and it is really not that big of a deal. Rohan mentioned that the EPIC is the camera being used for most movies, both 2D and 3D. I'm not quite sure you are right. Cameras are being picked for their different qualities.

[Josh Beadle]

Josh MAN-UP. I'm in LA. I can help with this.

For me The Death Match has already been decided: I ordered the only 5K/300FPS/RAW camera that takes Canon glass. Oh and . . . hot chicks dig the sick RED paramilitary branding - so that's a bene that Arri can't deliver.

To me the cine/feature film resolution, look & feel debate will be decided when the theater industry upgrades their projection system. Quality is ultimately decided by the last thing to touch the film. That's why Lucas had his THX certification and why Jim is developing 4K projection. I've seen 4K RED projected on the 40' RED Studio screen - fuckin amazing but this is not the world Joe Popcorn lives in. As long as the last link suxass there is little to argue about there. Jim will hopefully unsuck the theater industry and Joe can see what I, and other fellow REDies, have seen.

Peace my RED brothers. It's a great time to be alive and in the game! Can't we all just get along . . .

[Kenneth Williams]

Peace my RED brothers. It's a great time to be alive and in the game! Can't we all just get along . . .

wow

[Josh Beadle]

Josh I know what you are saying with this comment. So now I know, and it is safe to say, you are an idiot!

Hey Brother Kenneth,
I forgive you for your anger. With 23 posts you might not be aware that REDuser is not YouTube or 4Chan where personalized attacks are the currency of trade. From what I can tell, respectful disagreements, good humor ribbing and civil debates are more the norm. Hopefully, like me, you have a ticket to the big show tomorrow where you and I can meet and have a chuckle. I think you will find I am not an idiot, a simple minded moron with an opinion perhaps, but certainly not an idiot.
Peace be with you always,
-Josh

[Emanuel A.]

Anyone can see this evident in the "Milk Girls" clip produced with the original Red One Prototypes. In fact, when I saw that footage at first, I was one of the people who said "There is no way this came out of a digital camera - this must be film and this can't be real.Graeme's touch. 'Nattress' factory.

Exactly my feeling, then ...and today :-)


EDIT -- The most funny, next paragraph you'll mention his name. I've just seen now ;) And I could not agree more on your list why Alexa is mentioned. Nice to know two people with no connection in-between can have the same opinion on the facts ;)

EDIT Part II -- Simple but one of the best posts ever read @reduser.net 'cause says a lot of anything and everything -- my compliments!

[Josh Beadle]

Graeme was provided by aliens through an intergalactic exchange program. We gave them an In-N-Out burger location in return. Seems fair

[Josh Beadle]

Josh, you are right I should not have stated that you are an idiot. I am sorry for that. A statement like that might ruin your huge career as a big time Hollywood director of photography. Someone might log onto REDUSER and not hire you based on my single blog entry instead of your 479 + entries which clearly show the world just who you are. Now that I have apologized and read the rules of conduct pertaining to REDUSER I just have one thing to say… Josh I think you are an idiot!

I will pray for you my Kenneth. Clearly your life has been hard and there have been many, many disappointments. If focusing your anger and frustration upon me allows you to have a moment of peace then I will be your brother and take that pain. Again, peace be with you always.

[Emanuel A.]

Well said! Remember when Avid came out and editors hated it? They claimed it would be the downfall of civilization!True. And the most funny is that a few years later, they were simply replacing the steenbecks with Avid as I could see starting in 90s @ Lisbon film school within my days as editing department's apprentice, yet using both of them -- Steenbecks during first two years, Avid was reserved for final 3rd year.

In my 3rd year, Sony HDCAM F900 came up and I got the chance to attend to a Sony workshop which really changed my mind on tools (and life ;) I heard the same inside the cinematography department. A former instructor of mine, cinematographer, was spreading misinformation allover the film school saying the camera would actually cost triple price :D

[Kacey Baker]

I will pray for you my Kenneth. Clearly your life has been hard and there have been many, many disappointments. If focusing your anger and frustration upon me allows you to have a moment of peace then I will be your brother and take that pain. Again, peace be with you always.

Josh, I feel for you. Just move on, some can not be leveled with.

[Emanuel A.]

Gentlemen, let's the(ir) kids (part) stop and take the whole thing as just good humor -- it is the only best choice to make :)

[Peter Arnold]

Well, ARRI sold in fact over 2000 Alexa's so far. Just for the record.



The DOP of Anonymous Anna Foerster had never shot completely digital before.

So together with Academy Award Winner Volker Engel and his partner at Uncharted Territory, Mark Weigert she tested the picture quality of two digital cameras: The Alexa and the RED MX.

By the time the test was done, the EPIC was not yet available and the Alexa didn't have the ARRI RAW Recorder available yet.
So for the test they used the dual link SDI 4:4:4 signal from the Alexa which was fed into the CODEX recorder that internally records in JPEG-2000 at about a 1:4 compression rate.

After heavy testing, Foerster, Engel and Weigert choose the Alexa over the RED MX for several reasons:

1. The Alexa showed one stop more dynamic range.

2. At 800 ISO in low light conditions the RED MX tended to tint to green-ish and purple-ish while the Alexa stayed absolutely color-stable.

3. At 800 ISO there were also artifacts around highlight like candle flames with the RED MX. The Alexa didn't showed these problems.

4. There was slightly more noise in the dark parts of the picture with the RED MX.

5. When shooting green screen at ISO 800 the Alexa showed better results. Especially with details like hair. The RED MX tended to show red spillings around hairs here.
The testers thought that it had something to do with the lenses they used, so they tested a lot of different lenses on this subject only to find out that the RED MX seemed to be the source of the problem.
The Alexa again performed flawlessly on this topic.

That - anong other things - are the reasons why Anonymous was shot on Alexa.

Listen. I love my RED One, and soon enough I am a prowd owner of an EPIC.
But for every job, the right tool for the right task has to be chosen carefully.

Anna Foerster chose Alexa. Next time she might choose Epic.
After all "It's not the tools, it's the craft"

And please don't come back bashing at me.
I just delivered you guys some facts about why the Alexa was chosen over the RED MX.

The whole test might look quite different with the Epic.

But the Epic was just not available at the time Anonymous was shot. End of story.



Peter

[Dan Kanes]

Just thought I'd clarify one thing that some people may have been confused at - my Epic Test invitation was directed towards Josh Snyder who insisted that Alexa was De Facto "better" because you see it on YouTube.

Regarding the Anonymous test - Peter, thank you for sharing the story - don't doubt that what you say is true. The only thing I could question would be the testing methodology. This may be why Red has decided the importance Of sending a Handler to any test of this magnitude.

The painful thing about having choices (which is to me, what sets Red Apart) is that we, as humans, have many more opportunities to take a slight misstep - especially with something as sensitive as Color Science.

I'd be blown away if a compositing / VFX house would prefer a 2.5k image over a 4k one - well - I take that back - I can think of one in Pasadena that is very Alexa-fied, but that is neither here nor there.

Let's face it - there are people who choose a 5D over an Epic , MX or Alexa because "it's better in Low light" - that's one of the dangers of misinformation.

Again, I digress. I have no need to force my needs on others - in fact I'm looking forward to using the new Canon camera as well as Scarlet - I love testing new gear!

[Josh Snyder]

Just thought I'd clarify one thing that some people may have been confused at - my Epic Test invitation was directed towards Josh Snyder who insisted that Alexa was De Facto "better" because you see it on YouTube.

Regarding the Anonymous test - Peter, thank you for sharing the story - don't doubt that what you say is true. The only thing I could question would be the testing methodology. This may be why Red has decided the importance Of sending a Handler to any test of this magnitude.
I said to look at the trailers from youtube since that's the best quality you can see the trailers from the internet (apple trailers might have better 1080p versions?).

Zacuto invited RED to come with EPIC for The Great Camera Shootout 2011. RED said no.

The Great Camera Shootout is the best camera comparison ever. They won Emmy last year and are nominated for few again this year. If I knew I had superior product, I would go to the Shootout with my camera and show the world how good it is. That's a no brainer, business 101. There's a reason why RED didn't go. If they knew they had the superior product of course they would have gone.

From Steve Weiss:


The tests were conducted by Bob Primes ASC, Zacuto had nothing to do with the testing process, we are just making a documentary about the test, which will include the test footage and peoples reactions to viewing it in 2K theaters around the world. Both Bob and I asked RED for an Epic for our phase one technical tests and we were told no that the camera was still in Beta (this was about a week before it was released). For phase two tests, which were several weeks later and the Epic had been released, we again were told no. At NAB, Ted was being interviewed on the Teradek right before me and Philip Bloom. Phil and I were standing there as Ted walked off and I said to Ted "Boy a lot of people have been watching the SCCE test in our booth and have asked why the Epic was not included", Ted said, "My cameras are on movies and I don't believe in tests".

[Josh Snyder]

Why was this moved to "SHOT ONE RED"? It was shot with Alexa.

[Dan Kanes]

Give them enough rope and they hang themselves.

Like I said, Josh Snyder - don't believe everything you read on the Internet:

Point one:
It was not a Zacuto shoot-out - they got an Emmy for documenting the test.
Point two:
The SCCE was not an accurate and unbiased test - all one has to do is look at the test and you will see that lighting was not consistent between shots - the most obvious offender being what appears to be a Leko light aimed at a couch being one that stands out in my mind as an obvious continuity error. If your test lacks consistency it isn't scientific, right? Did we learn about scientific method? I did.
Point Three:
If you just take everything at face value without evaluating it for yourself then you are merely following the diatribes of the great and not so great rather than experiencing them.

If you are happy just seeing a YouTube video or believing a highly flawed and biased test, then please - by all means, enjoy.

If you want to come to LA and see the power of the Epic against anything on the market, then the invitation is open.

If you simply want to defer to a "Zacuto test" then you can keep tarnishing your own credibility as a vetted source of information.

[Dan Kanes]

Why was this moved to "SHOT ONE RED"? It was shot with Alexa.

Obviously your reading comprehension skills are lacking along with your methods of scientific analysis.

It wasn't moved. The original poster posted in this section erroneously / which by the way is titled Red Discussion - not shot on Red.

[Dan Kanes]

Here you go Josh - a real test for real world results.

I respect and appreciate this tester's methodology:

http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/posted-available-light-tests-are-finally-online/

[Josh Snyder]

Here you go Josh - a real test for real world results.

I respect and appreciate this tester's methodology:

http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/posted-available-light-tests-are-finally-online/
I will not watch some random test made by random people when we have proper comprasion made by real professionals.

[Josh Snyder]

Obviously your reading comprehension skills are lacking along with your methods of scientific analysis.

It wasn't moved. The original poster posted in this section erroneously / which by the way is titled Red Discussion - not shot on Red.
Obviously you must be blind. The thread was on "Red discussion" for days and now it's moved to "SHOT ON RED". and obviously your opinions have no value anymore when it comes to something that is compared with eyes.

[Dan Kanes]

Come to LA and rent an Alexa and let's shoot.

I promise I won't beat you up for being uninformed and trusting people YOU think are vetted professionals.

You should watch the John Brawley test for our own information then form an opinion about it though.

[Josh Snyder]

Give them enough rope and they hang themselves.

Like I said, Josh Snyder - don't believe everything you read on the Internet:

Point one:
It was not a Zacuto shoot-out - they got an Emmy for documenting the test.
Point two:
The SCCE was not an accurate and unbiased test - all one has to do is look at the test and you will see that lighting was not consistent between shots - the most obvious offender being what appears to be a Leko light aimed at a couch being one that stands out in my mind as an obvious continuity error. If your test lacks consistency it isn't scientific, right? Did we learn about scientific method? I did.
Point Three:
If you just take everything at face value without evaluating it for yourself then you are merely following the diatribes of the great and not so great rather than experiencing them.

If you are happy just seeing a YouTube video or believing a highly flawed and biased test, then please - by all means, enjoy.

If you want to come to LA and see the power of the Epic against anything on the market, then the invitation is open.

If you simply want to defer to a "Zacuto test" then you can keep tarnishing your own credibility as a vetted source of information.
The lighting issue on one take for one camera was only mistake there was on the test and this has been well documented since the test was published by the team.

RED was invited. RED team could have operated EPIC. RED didn't go.

[Dan Kanes]

Publishing inconsistent tests and then admitting it once caught does not make the test scientific or valid

[Josh Snyder]

Come to LA and rent an Alexa and let's shoot.

I promise I won't beat you up for being uninformed and trusting people YOU think are vetted professionals.

You should watch the John Brawley test for our own information then form an opinion about it though.

Read my earlier post.

"I won't beat you up". Would have hard time to not laugh at you if I came. I wouldn't fly around the world for the reason you can read from my earlier post, and for the reason that I couldn't make similar promises.

[Dan Kanes]

If you won't do your Own test then your opinion is just a guess, no matter how Ill informed or otherwise.

Like I Said - I work with both cameras so, my opinion has at least been formed around experience.

[Josh Snyder]

It's not long for next years Shootout. Can't wait.

[Dan Kanes]

Hopefully next year they will have a new committee, or at least have researched scientific method.

Don't wait for next year, do your own test here in Los Angeles next week.

[Josh Snyder]

Again, best comprasions ever made and like I said, your opinions have no value anymore for obvious reasons.

[Dan Kanes]

Whatever you say captain, hopefully some day you at least get to use or stand next to an Alexa or Epic.

If you want to spend about 2000 dollars total you could be here testing now, and donating two days of my time would also cost me $2000 so we would be even.

[Albert Armes]

Well, ARRI sold in fact over 2000 Alexa's so far. Just for the record.

That's not the figure I heard from a very reliable source. It was around 750 when I asked last week.


After heavy testing, Foerster, Engel and Weigert choose the Alexa over the RED MX for several reasons:

Well, Arri paid for the cameras, camera engineers, and all the lighting. Indeed there was "heavy testing" as you put it, as the tests had to be repeated and repeated until the Alexa "won". Of course, that's not surprising given the "support" that Arri was giving them.

Albert

[Bob Torrance]

Why has this been moved to Shot on RED?

[Peter Arnold]

[QUOTE=Albert Armes;854013]That's not the figure I heard from a very reliable source. It was around 750 when I asked last week./QUOTE]

Well, Arri sold over 200 Alexa's by the end of 2010 with another 600 ordered already. Those sixhundred were delivered in the first half of 2011.
Then the Alexa Plus came out, which was also selling very good.

At IBC 2011 the more less official number was 2000 pieces.

The number 750 seems to come from the US alone.

Because here in Europe the Alexa is usually the camera of choice.

Why? I don't know. I would choose RED hands down. But I can just speak for myself.


[QUOTE=Albert Armes;854013]Well, Arri paid for the cameras, camera engineers, and all the lighting. Indeed there was "heavy testing" as you put it, as the tests had to be repeated and repeated until the Alexa "won". Of course, that's not surprising given the "support" that Arri was giving them./QUOTE]

The tests for Anonymous startet in 2009, and they really wanted to shoot it on RED because of the higher resolution. But it didn't work for the reasons I already mentioned.
Read about it in the American Cinematographer No. 92 or in the german magazines "Kameramann" and "Digital Production"

Look, I know Volker Engel and Mark Weigert in person. And I once assisted Anna Foerster on short movie.

When they tested the RED MX and the Alexa, they came up with the results they came up with.
After - I repeat - AFTER they decided to go the Alexa route, they of course got all the support from ARRI they could wish for.

And movies that are shot on Epics it's no different I'm sure.

Again. I have the highest respect for everything RED does. I have one myself and I am more than happy.

Anna Foerster chose Alexa and I am looking forward to see the movie in a cinema nearby.
And I will not for a second think about on what it was shot.
I just want to sink into the movie and that's that.

Peter

[Josh Snyder]

Why has this been moved to Shot on RED?
It's not moved, ask Dan Kanes.

[Dan Kanes]

Hey smart guy - it actually did move since we last spoke on here.

Anyway - maybe you should go get a DSLR or HVX or something and start practicing the art of digital filmmaking - or start working with film cameras, so you can build up enough Experience Points to start making posts that matter.

:lol:

[Josh Snyder]

Hey smart guy - it actually did move since we last spoke on here.

Anyway - maybe you should go get a DSLR or HVX or something and start practicing the art of digital filmmaking - or start working with film cameras, so you can build up enough Experience Points to start making posts that matter.

:lol:
I don't understand what you are trying to do here because you are only doing more harm to yourself the more you talk (not sure if you even realize that yourself). You got already badly self owned when you started arquing that the thread wasn't moved. If I were you I would just log out in shame.

[Dan Kanes]

@ Josh Snyder - Please link me to something Relevant that you have done as a contributor to anything so I can be "Pwned" by your expertise. This is the last thing I will say to you. Oh, and thisL
http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/comics/2011-08-03-madaboutsomething.jpg

[Josh Snyder]

I don't need to "pwn" you. You do it by yourself.

[Dan Kanes]

^Pwned.

[Josh Beadle]

Quick . . . somebody throw some mud on the wrestling lesbians and grab a camera!

[John Brawley]

I will not watch some random test made by random people when we have proper comprasion made by real professionals.

Cheers.

jb