SWEDEN tests explained

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Thanks for posting chimney's link, knew it would happen sometime. When we did the tests we had unoptimal sitituations and very early build of the camera.

The tests as you have seen are at www.chimney.se, in the DVD footage it goes something like this..

RED first then 35mm FILM in longer sequences and FILM left RED right in Split screens.

The longer sequence with no comparison has not been graded, and is a direct export.

This as I have said before is part of my Master Thesis where I will be looking at RED vs FILM with most emphasis on Economics and Workflow.

Enjoy, I will be posting my findings soon, we are currently in the process of doing more optimal controlled indoor shots.

Marcus Vasques Osorio

[David Mullen ASC]

So why are the film frames so grainy in the split-screens? Are they really underexposed? Even the wide day shots are much grainier than I've seen 35mm look at that size.

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Hi David,

We used both 250 film and also RED set at 250, we have done no form of grain removal and done an optimal grade with very little work. Also Sweden is dark at this time of the year and the weekend about 2 months ago we had the RED here the weather was abismal hence the best lighting we could get. We had access to only 250 asa film at the time, and did not want to push it.

Marcus

[Brian Ferguson]

Marcus,

I know of only two cameras shipped to Sweden. I am assuming these are one of the ones used for the test. I saw some comments about back focus etc. but after talking to the two representatives from Sweden here at Red, I can't believe that their cameras were not properly set-up. Just wondering about that part of the technical conversation that ensued on the tests.

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

the camera was the ##48 from netherlands, and there was a problem with the PL mount which we found out afterwards... So as you said this camera was not proerely set-up either...

Marcus

[Jonas Nyström]

Marcus, share with us... your impression of the test outcome!:nerd:

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Sorry Jonas about to leave for england for christmas, I will post as soon as I get there and get internet access.

We are currently doing more tests in more controlled enviroments... should be ready in January

Marcus

[Brian Ferguson]

the camera was the ##48 from netherlands, and there was a problem with the PL mount which we found out afterwards... So as you said this camera was not proerely set-up either...

Marcus

This whole PL mount experience is why we have been on a ship hold all this time. Do you trust your rental house to set up your collimation and back focus or do you trust your A.C.? It may be the mount, it maybe the lens, depends on what was consistent. Were different lenses consistently the same or did they differ? This is a tough question to drill down to if you have lenses from one place and bodies from another. Basically no standards.

Brian

[Rick Darge]

Brian, what are your thoughts about this new mount?

[Brian Ferguson]

Brian, what are your thoughts about this new mount?

Well the PL mount has a specified flange depth. This mount allows the user to easily match the proper depth. If the lenses are not set-up properly you might have people adjusting for one lens and assuming that all others will follow even though the lenses are all different.

Just because we make it simple to adjust back focus does not mean your lenses are correct. There is homework to be done on both ends of the camera.

We can make it a more simple shim solution. You better make sure you have the lenses are properly set-up.

The professional rental houses project all of their lenses to know that that part of the equation is spot on. Anything less than these tolerances will just make problems that you will chase.

Brian

[dino g]

i had a shim put into my camera to adjust the back focus 5 weeks ago and it has been spot on ever since, with master primes, ultra primes, cooke s4's, super speeds, standard primes...i strongly suggest having them shim the lens mount if you can.

[Stephen Williams]

if you have lenses from one place and bodies from another. Basically no standards.

Brian

Hi Brian,

I have often rented lenses from different rental houses, never had an issue.

There are very exact standards for PL mounts & Lenses, all the rental houses I know follow them.

Stephen

[Rainer Fritz]

short question.... the red material looks on the right side of the splits here out of focus... could that be???
how was processing and telecine made of the film stock.... looks not so nice...
which firmware build was used on the red ???

thx
rainer

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Mahvo.

The best done RED tests I saw till now.

And much, much better and really more professional then the Barcelona's tests.

The "old" RED PL mount and FFD here is not an issue.

Also it is about the very good and more scientific directed methodology and overall presentation of the test.

You get a clear picture what it is about.

Even you get R3D files to download. (ftp://ftp.chimney.se/RAW)

No bluffing and everything is open.

If it was used only one film stock who cares.

Maybe some future test like this would show us more in that direction.

Congratulations.

[Stephen Williams]

short question.... the red material looks on the right side of the splits here out of focus... could that be???
thx
rainer

Hi,

If the FFD is wrong on the camera yes, it would not be the first time.

Stephen

[Jan Reiff]

the film footage looks really bad. seems a bit strange to me to compare it. we shot last month lowlight street sequences with arri on 35mm and the stuff was so much better than this.

[Jesper Holmström]

These tests were not done with our cameras. We noticed FFD problems with our cameras and adjusted them. We have done two commercials and two shortfilms and not had any problems with FFD. On a side note I find zeiss PL-mount primes to be very accurate from fabric, but we have two sets of Coke S4:s and not one lens was accurate on delivery. So I guess you really need to know that your lens is ok before you blame the camera. I think this is going to be very important when we get an adjustable mount. We don't want to adjust the camera after a faulty lens.

Jesper Holmström
Dagsljus Filmequipment

[David Mullen ASC]

the film footage looks really bad. seems a bit strange to me to compare it. we shot last month lowlight street sequences with arri on 35mm and the stuff was so much better than this.

Apparently they used a 250 ASA stock for everything, which is why the night work is so underexposed. I think this makes the test somewhat inaccurate, at least for the night stuff.

[chuck colburn]

Hi Brian,

I have often rented lenses from different rental houses, never had an issue.

There are very exact standards for PL mounts & Lenses, all the rental houses I know follow them.

Stephen

Damn right. You work as a camera and/or optical tech. for someone and can't hold standards your gone, as you would be doing grevious harm to the companys reputation. Now one thing I've seen happen is the test equipment being used is not qualified often enough. This would mainly apply to optical testing tools but can happen to mechanical depth gauges that are used to check flange focale depth. But that particular one would not be a concern with a video camera. If you know for a fact that the FFD is right on a given camera then the problem HAS to be with the lens or in the case of film cameras it could be the setting of the ground glass depth. Once again not a concern on a video camera. A good 1st AC trusts no one or anything to be right. Test everything.

[Mike Prevette]

Damn right. You work as a camera and/or optical tech. for someone and can't hold standards your gone, as you would be doing grevious harm to the companys reputation. Now one thing I've seen happen is the test equipment being used is not qualified often enough. This would mainly apply to optical testing tools but can happen to mechanical depth gauges that are used to check flange focale depth. But that particular one would not be a concern with a video camera. If you know for a fact that the FFD is right on a given camera then the problem HAS to be with the lens or in the case of film cameras it could be the setting of the ground glass depth. Once again not a concern on a video camera. A good 1st AC trusts no one or anything to be right. Test everything.


AMEN!

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Apparently they used a 250 ASA stock for everything, which is why the night work is so underexposed. I think this makes the test somewhat inaccurate, at least for the night stuff.

Agreed, not making excuses but the night shot was a last minute thing. We had problems getting faster stock on a Saturday night at 9pm, earlier the same evening we had used the film for an indoor shoot with lighting so we could'nt push half way through the roll.

Also as I pointed out earlier the camera we had was not one of JESPER'S camera's it was from the netherlands. When I last talked to them most of the small problems we had had been remedied on the camera....

Thanks for the comments....

[Rudi Herbert]

Apparently they used a 250 ASA stock for everything, which is why the night work is so underexposed. I think this makes the test somewhat inaccurate, at least for the night stuff.

Agree about the night stuff, but it doesn't make sense for all the day exteriors, they are also very grainy and a bit soft, which should not happen on 250 ASA, however overcast the skies were. If anything, they should be very sharp and basically grainless at that ASA...

[David Mullen ASC]

Or it could be noise in the day stuff -- some machines create noise in highlights when you scan dense film.

[AKproject]

Hi Mahvo,
do you remember what was the f-stop set on film camera for panning shot over Stockholm? did you use any nds?

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

i have all the f-stop and ND filter info just not here.... on holiday in UK at the moment. But I think we had the cam stopped down to 8 and we used a 9ND cant remeber exactly....

As for the scan we scanned in an ARRI at 4k resolution, no grain redux was used... the only thing I can think is that it was old film, cant remeber checking :-).....

we are currently doing test's in extremely controlled enviroments on a film shoot, with both 35mm and RED by a great DOP in Sweden. Hopefully the results are a bit fairer then.

back to dinner, wine and holidays

mahvo