I am going to return my copy of DaVinci to B&H as it is now worthless

[Rob Ruffo]

Because what I thought was worth $1000 is evidently now worth $0.

Because so many people now have Davinci free - I'd say that mid-level color correction will shortly descend into a minimum-wage job.

I don't think anyone should thank Black Magic, as they simply screwed over their paying customers - they should return their software or sell it on ebay, or maybe even think about a class-action lawsuit to get their wasted $1000 back if they, like me, bought recently.

The guys at Black Magic are off their rockers, and not in a good way like Jim. He REWARDS paying customers.

Driving this business, any aspect of it, down the unpaid gutter is not "democratization" - it is turning professions into hobbies that only the very rich will be able to pursue.

[M.Halsell]

But the full version supports:
* multiple GPUs
* multiple RED Rocket cards
* noise reduction
* 2K or 4K and stereoscopic 3D grading
among some of the outstanding features of the paid version.

[Luis Otero]

I can understand Rob's point of view; he has valid concerns.

Now, just imagine the people that bought DaVince for $250,000 just right before BMD acquired them... They must have felt like @&!@*...!!!

[Steve Sherrick]

Rob, I could be wrong about this, but I think BM responded to customers who said they didn't need all the features of Resolve (which M. Halsell laid out) but did need more nodes and perhaps an easier way to integrate with Avid pipelines.

Multiple GPUs is a BIG deal for a lot of people. So, I don't think it will be worthless in the long run.

By the way, can I have you on speed dial next weekend? I'm going to be shooting a fun little side project up there and just in case we get stuck and need any gear in a pinch, I'm looking for contacts in Montreal.

[Rob Ruffo]

But the full version supports:
* multiple GPUs
* multiple RED Rocket cards
* noise reduction
* 2K or 4K and stereoscopic 3D grading
among some of the outstanding features of the paid version.

I only have one GPU, one Red Rocket. The noise reduction is crap compared to Neat Video. I have never, ever seen a 2K or 4K job go through the pipe, nor anything in 3D - just not my market - and a tiny market irrelevant to the vast majority of users. There are no other unique features. I repeat, Black Magic has burned its paying customers, and at the same time burned themselves out of the software business. I will try to offload my copy (if I can even find someone to buy it - it's worthless now), and I would never buy software from them again. All I ever bought was a puny Intensity Pro card for $120 - now they are losing $1000 of my dollars.

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, I could be wrong about this, but I think BM responded to customers who said they didn't need all the features of Resolve (which M. Halsell laid out) but did need more nodes and perhaps an easier way to integrate with Avid pipelines.

Multiple GPUs is a BIG deal for a lot of people. So, I don't think it will be worthless in the long run.

By the way, can I have you on speed dial next weekend? I'm going to be shooting a fun little side project up there and just in case we get stuck and need any gear in a pinch, I'm looking for contacts in Montreal.

I just PM'ed you our number. Amber and I hope to hear from you.

However, I respectfully disagree when you say that BM responded to "customers" who needed whatever. If all you do is download something for free, you are not a customer, you are a freeloader. Few businesses have ever been successfully built on freeloaders. What next? Ads for online poker and penis enlargement on the BM site? They'll need them if all they're selling is $120 Intensity Pro cards while throwing their core products away for free. What do they care what freeloaders want?

And BTW - they burned not just me, but previously, as mentioned by Steve, their Unix buyers AND all other color correction software developers. They have just put them all out of business.

This level of irresponsible idiocy is unprecedented. If BM were publicly traded the CEO would be looking at criminal penalties from shareholders.

[Scott Crawley]

I understand your concern Rob. Things are bound to get a lot more competitive and rates will take a hit. You are going to have to work harder to get new clients than in the past. However, if you are saying that any unskilled noob with a free piece of software will be able to effectively compete with your work product, then I'm afraid you need to raise your game.

Polish up that reel and work hard. If you have the skills and a pedigree then you should be able to weather this. Keep your chin up.

Speaking of reels and resumes, are you tagging yours? It looks like useful way to add media to them. I don't know if it will help much, but it's a thought.


http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/tag/WindowsLiveWriter/MicrosoftTagReaderforGoogleAndroidavaila_8F29/image_2.png (http://tag.microsoft.com/home.aspx)

[Rob Ruffo]

I understand your concern Rob. Things are bound to get a lot more competitive and rates will take a hit. You are going to have to work harder to get new clients than in the past. However, if you are saying that any unskilled noob with a free piece of software will be able to effectively compete with your work product, then I'm afraid you need to raise your game.

Polish up that reel and work hard. If you have the skills and a pedigree then you should be able to weather this. Keep your chin up.

Speaking of reels and resumes, are you tagging yours? It looks like useful way to add media to them. I don't know if it will help much, but it's a thought.


http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/tag/WindowsLiveWriter/MicrosoftTagReaderforGoogleAndroidavaila_8F29/image_2.png (http://tag.microsoft.com/home.aspx)

Color correction is maybe 1% of our billings here, but other people do make their principle living off of it - either way, I could not have a lower opinion of BM at this point. I got screwed out of $1000, plain and simple.

[Björn Benckert]

Because what I thought was worth $1000 is evidently now worth $0.

Because so many people now have Davinci free - I'd say that mid-level color correction will shortly descend into a minimum-wage job.

I don't think anyone should thank Black Magic, as they simply screwed over their paying customers - they should return their software or sell it on ebay, or maybe even think about a class-action lawsuit to get their wasted $1000 back if they, like me, bought recently.

The guys at Black Magic are off their rockers, and not in a good way like Jim. He REWARDS paying customers.

Driving this business, any aspect of it, down the unpaid gutter is not "democratization" - it is turning professions into hobbies that only the very rich will be able to pursue.

Thats like saying being a "DOP" is a minimum wage job, Since anybody can say that they are a DOP... you do not even need to have a camera usually it's rented for the project at hand. So all you need is a pair of cool looking jeans and a T-shirt... that is very far from the truth, some people get paid very well as photographers, some does not. Same goes for people doing photoshop, some knows what they are doing and they make a bundle retouching, others got the program "of the web" and fiddle some at home... not so much money. The same goes for grading. If you think you can just download the free version watch a tutorial on youtube and then go away and say that you will grade Lord of the rings 5 but for less cash than the other guy, then you will probably be without of luck... You are right that grading is now not a machine investment driven business.. But when you say you pad 1000USD for your copy you also have to have in mind that other people before you bought the same software (earlier versions) for several hundred thousands of USD... So I guess it's the way the world spin.

[Rob Ruffo]

Thats like saying being a "DOP" is a minimum wage job, Since anybody can say that they are a DOP... you do not even need to have a camera usually it's rented for the project at hand. So all you need is a pair of cool looking jeans and a T-shirt... that is very far from the truth, some people get paid very well as photographers, some does not. Same goes for people doing photoshop, some knows what they are doing and they make a bundle retouching, others got the program "of the web" and fiddle some at home... not so much money. The same goes for grading. If you think you can just download the free version watch a tutorial on youtube and then go away and say that you will grade Lord of the rings 5 but for less cash than the other guy, then you will probably be without of luck... You are right that grading is now not a machine investment driven business.. But when you say you pad 1000USD for your copy you also have to have in mind that other people before you bought the same software (earlier versions) for several hundred thousands of USD... So I guess it's the way the world spin.

I agree - It's all about talent and relationships - of course!

But I do feel BM has now burned paying customers twice - I for one will never give them any more of my money. We were looking at the full DaVinci control surface, but now have cancelled plans to buy it as who knows, maybe next week it will be $500 instead of $35 000, and also because they have left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I don;t want to give them any of my money, out of principle. Their actions have destroyed my and I'm sure many other people's good will toward them, and done great harm to the software development community. If they go bankrupt the reasons will not be hard to figure out.

[Barend Onneweer]

It's ironic though. I get the impression that the people that have been complaining most about the pricing of grading and finishing tools, and were cheering, gloating and celebrating the 'end of expensive finishing tools' when BM dropped the price on Resolve, are now the same ones complaining about being on the other side, after having invested US$ 1000 into Resolve...

But it's done, and we'll have to see how the competition deals with this in the future. In the mean time it's probably a good idea to start building your business around technical, artistic and people skills, and less around the scarcity of your equipment.

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

[Rob Ruffo]

It's ironic though. I get the impression that the people that have been complaining most about the pricing of grading and finishing tools, and were cheering, gloating and celebrating the 'end of expensive finishing tools' when BM dropped the price on Resolve, are now the same ones complaining about being on the other side, after having invested US$ 1000 into Resolve...

But it's done, and we'll have to see how the competition deals with this in the future. In the mean time it's probably a good idea to start building your business around technical, artistic and people skills, and less around the scarcity of your equipment.

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

Our business is built around personal relationships and skills ONLY - most of our clients have not much interest in tech and we feel it is not their problem how we do it, just that we do it and do it well. That is not the point. The point is that screwing your paying customers over is not cool. Black magic has now done this twice, and I for one have no interest in giving a company with such low regard for their paying clients any more of my money. I think everyone should think twice at this point. As an aside, I was not cheering - I felt really bad for the people who had just spent $45 000 for what I was getting for $1000, and I also felt guilty.

[Scott Crawley]

Black Magic is taking less of your money. I fail to see why that is a problem.

The value of software is what it enables you to do, not the price tag. DaVinci is more powerful today than it was at $250,000 and now it cost $1000. (We both know it actually costs a lot more, but let's run with it.) That leaves your business with $249,000 more capital to invest in other aspects of your business.

You could hire some very good sales people to go out and pimp your ass for that money. You could add more workstations and hire additional colorists to increase your working capacity... Make up the drop in rates with volume. You could add a lot of luxury into your building to make your clients more comfortable. The list of things you can do with that money is long, so why are you bitching, really? The only thing you have lost is resale value on the workstations you already own, and those frankly should have paid for themselves already if you bought them back when the cost was premium.

I know a car salesman who had complaints like yours several years ago. Car buyers now had easy access to invoice prices via the Internet and wouldn't be gouged. The gold rush was over he thought. The ones who continued to prosper saw the Internet as an opportunity to reach more customers and sell more cars. They found a way to leverage the thing that was troubling them as an asset rather than bitch about it as a hindrance. You could do the same.

[Dermot]

two thoughts....

Thought numebr one - budget for an ever reduceing ROI cycle - in 2000 i was vp of a post company and spent 2.5 on a Inferno, two Flames, and two DS's, we looked at 36 month ROI cycle, and made money on the investment back then... today i look at an 8-12 month ROI cycle, i'm now the sole owner of two DS's & three seats of Nuke, when i buy gear it's because it make sense on all levels.

Thought number two - my dad said "It's not what you pay for it, it's what it costs you"
...If you made your 1K investment back in the last year then you enter the new year with software that does what you need, hardware that supports it, and you have been through the growing pains... win/win?
...If you haven't made your 1K invesment back in the last year ( you mentioned only 1% of your billings were color timing last year) then maybe it's time to rethink the ROI, and use your resources elsewhere to greater advantage? Maybe what Resolve really costs you is the reduction of options elsewhere both in time / focus / resources.. there may be a better use of all that? Or maybe you need to focus on creating enough revenue to make the ROI possiable, and then look to grow later, once you have a business model that sustains it's self?

d

[Meryem Ersoz]

This entire industry is in a big deflationary spiral which has reduced many costs to entry on many new technologies - I'm just a little puzzled why you're focused on BMD, Rob - I mean, everything is getting cheaper - look what FCP-X did to the cost of entering Avid MC or Premiere.

Price wars are all around us, and everyone gets bit periodically by adopting earlier, rather than later.

Money is made by the impatient, who buy early and make their money back. But the patient ones, who are watching and waiting for their price points, are being rewarded with the savings. You just have to decide your approach to the systemic fluctuations in this marketplace.

[Paul Russell]

it's not the cost, it's the talent

[Dermot]

Come to think of it.. the biggest loser may well be Baselight...

They threw their development resources into making a plug-in for FCP.. only to see the platform they developed for be trashed just before releasing their software.

Makes sense from a dev viewpoint to port Davinci to w7 i guess after that...

[Bing Bailey]

I never understood why people put so much stock in money. isn't its value what it does and not what it costs. does it do less than it did last week. is it still not a valuable tool no matter what the cost. prices change all the time. if a tool is great it doesn't matter if it cost one thing one week or another thing the next. its the combination of what you can do with the tool. it doesn't colour correct/grade for you.

[Björn Benckert]

I agree - It's all about talent and relationships - of course!

But I do feel BM has now burned paying customers twice - I for one will never give them any more of my money. We were looking at the full DaVinci control surface, but now have cancelled plans to buy it as who knows, maybe next week it will be $500 instead of $35 000, and also because they have left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I don;t want to give them any of my money, out of principle. Their actions have destroyed my and I'm sure many other people's good will toward them, and done great harm to the software development community. If they go bankrupt the reasons will not be hard to figure out.

Well again that's how the the world spins... The film camera equipment development cycle has been extremely slow until red showed up. Example for how long where the Arri 435 in use? Compare that to the post side of things where you buy an Inferno one year for about 500K USD and then the year after the same company want to sell you a "Flame" that is about 20 times faster for about 200K USD... then a few years after that they announce that the "MAC smoke is out for about 15k USD" and it out preforms the fastest flame for a fraction of the cost... So welcome to the software world.

I think free and low cost is good. The more the better, since I believe in my talent and I work for my money, if it was all about investing then rich people would even more than today run the film industry. Today there are many talented people that has success since talent and great effort makes up for having less money.

[M Most]

I've heard similar complaints from Red camera owners that didn't like the amount of Epic-M's being sold because it made their Epic-M less rare, and thus had to lower their expectations on the rental rates...

The various races to the bottom in terms of cost have invited complaints from everyone other than those who can only afford free stuff. When Red showed up, those who were using $200K cameras felt that their hearts had been cut out by a company that was offering a large percentage of the quality at 1/10 the price. Then, just 2 years later, those who had bought Red gear were voicing exactly the same complaints regarding those who were starting to use $1700 DSLR's and claimed to have a good deal of the required quality at, yes, 1/10 the price. I never really thought this would get to the point that it has, where you have almost 100% of the quality and no price at all. And yes, I agree with Rob that this never ending spiral inevitably leads to not only customer disloyalty, but ultimately an inability for anyone to make money in certain ends of the industry. The fact is that it's easy to say it's all about talent, but I've been in this business for quite some time, and I can tell you that it is unavoidable that customers look at the constantly lowering cost of the equipment you use and equate that value with your value. When the equipment is worth less, you're worth less, regardless of how good you are. I don't know very many colorists or editors - or cameramen, for that matter - who today are making what they made 10 years ago, especially when you consider the ever increasing cost of, well, seemingly everything except computers, cameras and post production software. It all seems very exciting to young artists just starting out, but in a fairly short time they're going to be faced with the necessity of making a living. When that happens, it will likely become clear that there are a lot of better ways to do that than working in an industry where the profit is so low and the competition so fierce that companies are forced to give things away, and where that ever decreasing value ultimately translates to ever decreasing pay.

Now, having said all that, I happen to really like Resolve, and I happen to think that the Blackmagic guys have done a great job with it. And I'm likely to keep using it for a number of things going forward. But personally, I really wish the free thing would be taken off the table and allow us to have some fair competition, and allow Blackmagic to make enough money to continue to fund R&D on the software.

[Joel Kaye]

Now, having said all that, I happen to really like Resolve, and I happen to think that the Blackmagic guys have done a great job with it. And I'm likely to keep using it for a number of things going forward. But personally, I really wish the free thing would be taken off the table and allow us to have some fair competition, and allow Blackmagic to make enough money to continue to fund R&D on the software.

Do you have any idea what BlackMagic's strategy is here? Are they worried about Adobe and Iridas? Do they think free software will sell more conversion cards? I can't figure it out. It's really interesting nonetheless.

Is this fundamentally different than Apple Color's drop for free into FCP because Resolve is so much better?

[Dermot]

I really wish the free thing would be taken off the table and allow us to have some fair competition, and allow Blackmagic to make enough money to continue to fund R&D on the software.

+1 to that.. i don't care about the 1K, it's tiny investment in the context of the entire room... keeping R&D going is more important to me... and yea i'm not making anything like what i was 10 years ago, but also have a fraction of the headaches & stress that i had a decade ago.. downsizeing was a good choice for me.. both in biz and in real life

d

[M Most]

Do you have any idea what BlackMagic's strategy is here? Are they worried about Adobe and Iridas? Do they think free software will sell more conversion cards?


I honestly don't have a clue. There's probably only one person on the planet who really knows the reasoning behind these moves, and that's Grant Petty. I for one would be curious to hear his rationale, if he's willing to talk about it.

[jake blackstone]

Come to think of it.. the biggest loser may well be Baselight...

They threw their development resources into making a plug-in for FCP.. only to see the platform they developed for be trashed just before releasing their software.

Makes sense from a dev viewpoint to port Davinci to w7 i guess after that...
Completely disagree.
Baselight, along with other high end manufacturers is doing great. Resolve has zero impact on their business model. FilmLight, Image Systems, Quantel and Autodesk isn't participating into the sprint to the bottom. FilmLight didn't waste their R&D. Baselight plugin will be released for NUKE soon, which is much more important, than FCP and they are talking to other manufacturers. So, no need to feel bad for FilmLight...
I would more feel bad for Assimilate, as free the Resolve just about nailed the final nail into their coffin and Adobe with their purchase of Speedgrade.

[Scott Crawley]

I really wish the free thing would be taken off the table and allow us to have some fair competition...

I respect your experience and really appreciate your point of view on things so please explain to me how making the tool available to just about everyone to learn and use makes the competition less fair? It seems to me that it does the opposite.



Do you have any idea what BlackMagic's strategy is here? Are they worried about Adobe and Iridas? Do they think free software will sell more conversion cards? I can't figure it out. It's really interesting nonetheless.

I think it's about expanding the user base, right? Making the tool accessible to students and other would-be colorists creates new customers and binds them to you through reciprocity. The idea being that they will feel a desire to return the favor, or express gratitude through loyalty when the inevitable upgrade is purchased.

[jake blackstone]

Well again that's how the the world spins... The film camera equipment development cycle has been extremely slow until red showed up. Example for how long where the Arri 435 in use? Compare that to the post side of things where you buy an Inferno one year for about 500K USD and then the year after the same company want to sell you a "Flame" that is about 20 times faster for about 200K USD... then a few years after that they announce that the "MAC smoke is out for about 15k USD" and it out preforms the fastest flame for a fraction of the cost... So welcome to the software world.

I think free and low cost is good. The more the better, since I believe in my talent and I work for my money, if it was all about investing then rich people would even more than today run the film industry. Today there are many talented people that has success since talent and great effort makes up for having less money.

Your example would apply, if Smac was selling for a $1000 and the HD version was free:-)
Although, come to think of it, now students can get a copy for 36 months for free too...

[Chris Puerstl]

I have a blackmagic multibridge eclipse and it is well worth the money, Davinci free version was put out with massive amounts of limitations not only the GPU but in the amounts of nodes you can have. If you were looking at grading software and using a mac Apples colour is great for what it does and has many pro features but only 8 secondaries. Maybe in what you are looking for 8 secondaries or 2 nodes if more then enough. When you get a job that requires 9 or more secondaries in a short or feature then you would wish that you didn't get ride of davinci, for 1000 dollars it is a great software and has amazing features. We have not tried it out yet but have heard good things about it we went with Assimilate Scratch top end version but there entry level is 5k. So 1000 dollars is not a bad deal at all for a pro software.

[Dermot]

Completely disagree.
Baselight, along with other high end manufacturers is doing great. Resolve has zero impact on their business model. FilmLight, Image Systems, Quantel and Autodesk isn't participating into the sprint to the bottom. FilmLight didn't waste their R&D. Baselight plugin will be released for NUKE soon. which is much more important, than FCP and they are talking to other manufacturers. So, no need to feel bad for FilmLight...
I would more feel bad for Assimilate, as free the Resolve just nailed the final nail into their coffin and Adobe with their purchase of Speedgrade.
yea, all good points... Assimilate has lost the edge it gained as an early adopter, and who knows what the deal was in the Colorfront/Autodesk suit that they lost, and how it impacts their priceing and marketing...

I'm glad the Baselight / Foundry thing is going ahead, i don't see it as a big deal tho, we just send 3D luts of grades into Nuke along with links to the r3d's & debayer info.. Nuke is far too slow for gradeing & Baselight plug there is kinda answering a question no one's asking here... but they will likely sell a small truck load of them, just not to me ;-)

A Baselight plug in Media Composer6 would be far more interesting, and i think that might really signal a need for change to existing biz models when combined with Resolve & SpeedGrade in PP... yea.. (oh and i share your opnion of SpeedGrade, not a first choice - unless you have a pile SiV's like i had.. then it's your only choice).

Guess we'll see this time next year where it's all at..

[Joel Kaye]

when the inevitable upgrade is purchased. .

Inevitable? That's pretty optimistic - lol.

There are shareware guys offering little apps for free for 14 days and you can buy it for $29 after that. I understand THAT. But what's BlackMagic selling? This thing isn't even $99 after two weeks. Ya know?

If the app's output was 480P limited for free I think he'd get what he wants... everyone using and figuring it out. The only thing I can come up with is they want to be acquired by Adobe. Or they want to put someone else out of business (assimilate?) and will raise the price after that.

[jake blackstone]

I have a blackmagic multibridge eclipse and it is well worth the money, Davinci free version was put out with massive amounts of limitations not only the GPU but in the amounts of nodes you can have. If you were looking at grading software and using a mac Apples colour is great for what it does and has many pro features but only 8 secondaries. Maybe in what you are looking for 8 secondaries or 2 nodes if more then enough. When you get a job that requires 9 or more secondaries in a short or feature then you would wish that you didn't get ride of davinci, for 1000 dollars it is a great software and has amazing features. We have not tried it out yet but have heard good things about it we went with Assimilate Scratch top end version but there entry level is 5k. So 1000 dollars is not a bad deal at all for a pro software.

I re-read your post twice and I'm still n ot sure on your point. Are you under an impression, that Resolve Lite is still limited in the number of nodes? It is not and it is perfectly capable of doing everything Scratch can do, up to HD, for free at that:-)

[Scott Crawley]

Inevitable? That's pretty optimistic - lol.

There are shareware guys offering little apps for free for 14 days and you can buy it for $29 after that. I understand THAT. But what's BlackMagic selling? This thing isn't even $99 after two weeks. Ya know?

If the app's output was 480P limited for free I think he'd get what he wants... everyone using and figuring it out. The only thing I can come up with is they want to be acquired by Adobe. Or they want to put someone else out of business (assimilate?) and will raise the price after that.

Well, inevitable for those moving forward... I see the humor though. I think it had to be more than 480P to actually get anyone interested because of the other inexpensive options available. You raise some interesting possibilities. Your analysis seems shrewd.



I re-read your post twice and I'm still n ot sure on your point. Are you under an impression, that Resolve Lite is still limited in the number of nodes? It is not and it is perfectly capable of doing everything Scratch can do, up to HD, for free at that:-)

Wow, I didn't know the node limit was gone. I guess BM is betting the DaVinci farm on the notion that 4k is the future, eh?

[jake blackstone]

yea, all good points... Assimilate has lost the edge it gained as an early adopter, and who knows what the deal was in the Colorfront/Autodesk suit that they lost, and how it impacts their priceing and marketing...

I'm glad the Baselight / Foundry thing is going ahead, i don't see it as a big deal tho, we just send 3D luts of grades into Nuke along with links to the r3d's & debayer info.. Nuke is far too slow for gradeing & Baselight plug there is kinda answering a question no one's asking here... but they will likely sell a small truck load of them, just not to me ;-)

A Baselight plug in Media Composer6 would be far more interesting, and i think that might really signal a need for change to existing biz models when combined with Resolve & SpeedGrade in PP... yea.. (oh and i share your opnion of SpeedGrade, not a first choice - unless you have a pile SiV's like i had.. then it's your only choice).

Guess we'll see this time next year where it's all at..

Baselight plugin inside Nuke is a HUGE deal. Forget all that funny LUT business. Open XML inside Nuke and voila, all your R3D would open, perfectly graded, looking exactly the same as in BL and FCP. Do all your magic in Nuke and export XML. Open it in BL and voila, all your grades still intact, just do the final grading pass. And the best part, no rendering and baking in color grades. It is all not just metadata. I think this is a future of the modern pipeline- everything is metadata and no rendering, until the very end.

[Dermot]

Or they want to put someone else out of business (assimilate?) and will raise the price after that.
remember MC6 & Symp just got the surface, DS with unlimited nodes and tons of plugs in the CC interface gets the surface soon, and conforms anything from a Avid better than well.. anything...

And PP will likely show up with a surface and SpeedGrade... making it a question about using dedicated color tools when finishing tools have competitive color toolsets, and the new folks entering the market have grown up with intergrated toolsets, and a mindset to use them to the fullest.. the days of a one trick pony may be waneing, not gone, but the game is changeing

The real competition may not be other gradeing tools, it may be intergrated edit / finishing / color systems with far better color tools than in the past?

[jake blackstone]

remember MC6 & Symp just got the surface, DS with unlimited nodes and tons of plugs in the CC interface gets the surface soon, and conforms anything from a Avid better than well.. anything...

And PP will likely show up with a surface and SpeedGrade... making it a question about using dedicated color tools when finishing tools have competitive color toolsets, and the new folks entering the market have grown up with intergrated toolsets, and a mindset to use them to the fullest.. the days of a one trick pony may be waneing, not gone, but the game is changeing

The real competition may not be other gradeing tools, it may be intergrated edit / finishing / color systems with far better color tools than in the past?
Well, something we can agree on:-)
I can't wait for Lustre to be included inside of Smoke. Once that happens, I would be have found Nirvana. CC and CW is a joke right now, but Lustre is awesome. There will be nothing, that you couldn't do inside Smoke at the highest level- editing, conforming, procedural compositing in 3D space, painting, audio editing, color grading and much, much more. And the best part... wait... a huge learning curve!!! Yes, no need to worry, that anyone can just pick up a free copy and immediately start using it and undercutting you on price, like... well you know...:-)
BTW, grading on Avid platform is just marginally better, than FCP, with panel or not...

[Dermot]

Baselight plugin inside Nuke is a HUGE deal. Forget all that funny LUT business. Open XML inside Nuke and voila, all your R3D would open, perfectly graded, looking exactly the same as in BL and FCP. Do all your magic in Nuke and export XML. Open it in BL and voila, all your grades still intact, just do the final grading pass. And the best part, no rendering and baking in color grades. It is all not just metadata. I think this is a future of the modern pipeline- everything is metadata and no rendering, until the very end.

the funny LUT biz is working for us now fortunatly, no bakeing in anything, the comp shot is automagily replaced in the timeline as it renders, no change in color.. unless the Nue artist did it on purpose.. the biggest headache we have is although they have DreamColor's on the Nuke workstaions to work on, the roomlights are up, down, sideways, sunlight, overcast cloudy days, streetlights at night.. whatever... and they just don't want to live in a darkish grey room.

Getting 3D luts into Nuke is dead easy & fast for us and we are Avid centric, so XML is kinda useless to us anyway.

d

[Dermot]

BTW, grading on Avid platform is just marginally better, than FCP, with panel or not...

HUGE diff between Avid's color tools & DS's.. like really huge.... other than the GUI looking much the same... not much in common... DS is much closer to Smoke, Pablo & Mystika than it is to Avid.

And for sure i agree with you.. the color tool in Symp/MC6 are not much better than FCP, hence the thought that a Baselight plugin could be a game changer

d

[jake blackstone]

the funny LUT biz is working for us now fortunatly, no bakeing in anything, the comp shot is automagily replaced in the timeline as it renders, no change in color.. unless the Nue artist did it on purpose.. the biggest headache we have is although they have DreamColor's on the Nuke workstaions to work on, the roomlights are up, down, sideways, sunlight, overcast cloudy days, streetlights at night.. whatever... and they just don't want to live in a darkish grey room.

Getting 3D luts into Nuke is dead easy & fast for us and we are Avid centric, so XML is kinda useless to us anyway.

d

You still missing the point of BL plugin.
With LUT, if you grade it on BL, you'll have to render it out, with all of the grading decisions baked it. It's done and you can't change it, well not very easily. Then LUT just allows you to see the graded material correctly in Nuke. With BL plugin, color grading decisions don't have to be committed until the very end-final render. It's all just metadata, just like R3D metadata. And Nuke operator, inside of Nuke, could adjust say, a window, that colorist made in B, if needed. Don't you still see the difference?
Anyway, it seems, we managed to highjack this thread far enough. Let's get back to the OP question...

[M Most]

I respect your experience and really appreciate your point of view on things so please explain to me how making the tool available to just about everyone to learn and use makes the competition less fair? It seems to me that it does the opposite.

If you minimize the profit potential of a particular market segment, it discourages competition because it removes any incentive for competitive companies to continue to do further development. With fewer products, there is less development and less innovation. Fair competition exists when the various players can compete on features and performance in order to grow a user base and make their efforts profitable. It is lessened when one of those competitors unilaterally decides that profit is unimportant.



I think it's about expanding the user base, right? Making the tool accessible to students and other would-be colorists creates new customers and binds them to you through reciprocity. The idea being that they will feel a desire to return the favor, or express gratitude through loyalty when the inevitable upgrade is purchased.

I would agree with that if the free version were limited enough to encourage that "inevitable" upgrade. With their recent moves, Blackmagic has removed that upgrade incentive for a good number of users who are basically either hobbyists or doing personal projects. And they've hurt the earning potential for those who are working as professionals.

[M Most]

You still missing the point of BL plugin...With BL plugin, color grading decisions don't have to be committed until the very end-final render. It's all just metadata, just like R3D metadata. And Nuke operator, inside of Nuke, could adjust say, a window, that colorist made in B, if needed.

Jake is correct. The plugin was always more about material exchange between different platforms than it was about base grading. Being able to round trip color information without the limits of LUTs or CDLs has always been the intent.

[Dermot]

You still missing the point of BL plugin.
With LUT, if you grade it on BL, you'll have to render it out, with all of the grading decisions baked it. It's done and you can't change it, well not very easily. Then LUT just allows you to see the graded material correctly in Nuke. With BL plugin, color grading decisions don't have to be committed until the very end-final render. It's all just metadata, just like R3D metadata. And Nuke operator, inside of Nuke, could adjust say, a window, that colorist made in B, if needed. Don't you still see the difference?

I think i get it.. we do much the same today, and have been for a few years now, the caveat being that the Nukke artist can't re-grade / de-grade my work;
I time a shot,
i pull a 3D lut of the color transform
i drop it on the server in the r3d's folder
Nuke artist opens r3d, debayers as per the show, and drops the 3D lut into their viewer
Nuke artist renders approved shot to a indexed folder on my disk array, no LUT of course as it's only been in in their viewer
Link back to DPX and it's on my timeline with my grade, no rendering or bakeing in color in Nuke

I love the idea, but if i had a choice, i would love to have a Baselight plug in MC6 more.. that might make a biz case to buy a real Baselight for us.. the shear volume of Resolve's out there make a good case to spend coin on one, finishing the dreaded "i did this at home on my laptop and it doesn't look very good anywhere else" is one market, but not mine.. it's the Dit's using it for dalies, and DP's wanting to keep those grades as a starting point that drives my thoughts..


d

[Scott Crawley]

If you minimize the profit potential of a particular market segment, it discourages competition because it removes any incentive for competitive companies to continue to do further development. With fewer products, there is less development and less innovation. Fair competition exists when the various players can compete on features and performance in order to grow a user base and make their efforts profitable. It is lessened when one of those competitors unilaterally decides that profit is unimportant.

OK I see. I was thinking of the competition among colorists and you were speaking of the developers.

[Rob Ruffo]

Black Magic is taking less of your money. I fail to see why that is a problem.

The value of software is what it enables you to do, not the price tag. DaVinci is more powerful today than it was at $250,000 and now it cost $1000. (We both know it actually costs a lot more, but let's run with it.) That leaves your business with $249,000 more capital to invest in other aspects of your business.

You could hire some very good sales people to go out and pimp your ass for that money. You could add more workstations and hire additional colorists to increase your working capacity... Make up the drop in rates with volume. You could add a lot of luxury into your building to make your clients more comfortable. The list of things you can do with that money is long, so why are you bitching, really? The only thing you have lost is resale value on the workstations you already own, and those frankly should have paid for themselves already if you bought them back when the cost was premium.

I know a car salesman who had complaints like yours several years ago. Car buyers now had easy access to invoice prices via the Internet and wouldn't be gouged. The gold rush was over he thought. The ones who continued to prosper saw the Internet as an opportunity to reach more customers and sell more cars. They found a way to leverage the thing that was troubling them as an asset rather than bitch about it as a hindrance. You could do the same.

Once again, we are not in any kind of financial trouble - for us $1000 is no big deal, less than a day's work - it's the principle that bugs me. We do not "gouge" anybody, but we do charge for gear rental. If I turn up on set with our camera, it obviously costs more than if I show up with just my nice pants. Otherwise why invest in gear that gives you zero R.O.I.? BM already took my money (if I can't get a refund). Many others also just spent $1000 - and for them $1000 might mean quite a lot in this economy. They were hoping to charge $50 a day extra to get an R.O.I. on this investment (which is fair on a $1000 software investment = other factors like studio and workstations are on top of that, and last but far from least their time) I am pissed off on their behalf as much or more than on mine.

We've had Davinci for just a few weeks now - I've been learning it (I'd previously learned Lustre some years back). Was having Davinci Full for two weeks worth $1000? No, not really. Like Mr. Most, I was talking about developers being driven into the ground, not really colorists, although free software will certainly not help colorists who are not yet "name brands" either - and that's the reality of the market, whether you think it should be so or not.

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Baselight plugin inside Nuke is a HUGE deal. Forget all that funny LUT business. Open XML inside Nuke and voila, all your R3D would open, perfectly graded, looking exactly the same as in BL and FCP. Do all your magic in Nuke and export XML. Open it in BL and voila, all your grades still intact, just do the final grading pass. And the best part, no rendering and baking in color grades. It is all not just metadata. I think this is a future of the modern pipeline- everything is metadata and no rendering, until the very end.

Indeed!

[Rob Ruffo]

I never understood why people put so much stock in money. isn't its value what it does and not what it costs. does it do less than it did last week. is it still not a valuable tool no matter what the cost. prices change all the time. if a tool is great it doesn't matter if it cost one thing one week or another thing the next. its the combination of what you can do with the tool. it doesn't colour correct/grade for you.

I'm sorry but, if we bought gear with this philosophy we would be bankrupt.

[Christoffer Glans]

I'd say that mid-level color correction will shortly descend into a minimum-wage job.

At the moment I do some work with Color Finesse in AE and it's not that optimal for color grading, but my clients trust my color vision and my skills in grading so I will get payed anyway.
As always the tools are just tools, color grading is not something anyone can do, just as good cinematography isn't something anyone can do. I do not say I am the best colorist around, no way, but I have worked a lot as a still photographer shooting RAW and working with that, this is the same in some ways and I have been working with films more then still photography so.

They pay me based on my knowledge and skill, not my tools, if anything this will be more and more important in the future. Some years from now anyone can do post production at home with calibrated screens and 4K mastering for a technical budget comparable to lunchmoney (well, you get my point) and then it all comes down to your eyes... those have a price.

[Bryce O]

They pay me based on my knowledge and skill, not my tools, if anything this will be more and more important in the future. Some years from now anyone can do post production at home with calibrated screens and 4K mastering for a technical budget comparable to lunchmoney (well, you get my point) and then it all comes down to your eyes... those have a price.

+1 Good post.

If you're only getting paid because you "have something" that other don't... you're probably shouldn't be doing it.

On the bright side... with all this "democratizing" happening... at least things are starting to become more about skill/creativity/talent than just about "owning" things. We're all artists, not just gear owners, right? :wink5:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I understand your concern Rob. Things are bound to get a lot more competitive and rates will take a hit. You are going to have to work harder to get new clients than in the past. However, if you are saying that any unskilled noob with a free piece of software will be able to effectively compete with your work product, then I'm afraid you need to raise your game.

Have to agree here. And looking at it from another angle, this has always been an issue. Many professional applications have gone the route of free or dirt cheap over the years, and many others have become common acquisitions for those using pirated warez. 99.9% of the people using Resolve Lite or those with pirated versions of Photoshop, MAYA, etc.. are not going to do anything with it. They're not your competition, they're not to worry about. Sure, one or two of them might step up with some talent, but those are rare.

I can totally respect Rob's point of view. The free version of Resolve does everything he needs. On the other hand, how long has he owned the paid version? Did it not pay for itself in that time? I paid $900 for my first seat of Resolve and it paid for itself, and then some, on the first job I used it for. Bought a second seat of Resolve (from another reduser member via ebay) so I could put the dongle on my DIT cart, or have one to take with me. I'm not sure if that one is really worth-while now that the free version does so much. But hey, I've got it, so I'll use it.

All things considered, I just look at this from a different perspective. And that is Resolve is a free tool now that does a lot. The paid version, which has a street price of about $900, gets you some added benefits such as support for 3D/stereo, resolutions of 2K and higher, multiple GPU support, multiple Rocket support. Apparently I didn't realize that the free version supported the Rocket... But if you need those feature, then you pay for it. Rob is right about the noise reduction... It's pretty weak compared to Neat Video or similar solutions.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

To this entire thread I say, rubbish.

I bill the same rate for a 10 hour day, $600, if you have me on set to shoot a 7D, or an Epic or an Alexa. It doesn't matter if we shoot Master Primes or DSLR lenses with screw on gears, my rate is the same.

Guess what? That's the deal with my coloring services too. I make my money though on my services ... at a measly $60 per hour (my current rate), plus overtime if required for rush work.

My coloring business was built on Color ... which was effectively free with Final Cut.

Speedgrade is going to be free with Adobe CS6. Speed grade kicks ass by the way. Its not Resolve ... but it doesn't need to be either.

Avid has some great coloring tools in their suite which is just $3000 and includes a lot of very flexible tools. Most people don't buy Media Composer Suite as a grading toolset - but it does the job for a lot of productions if the operator has the talent. So again - its grading tools are effectively "free."

Resolve being "free" is a non-issue to my business. Resolve at $1000 just delayed purchases of other BMD gear I desire to own.

$1000 is not the sort of barrier to entry that make rates differ. I mean, I'd price the paid Resolve software only for OS X at $10 per day in my suite.

(The simple math I use, is that the gear should pay off its total ownership cost in 100 days of rental - for most software that's simply the (retail price/100).)

All this bitching over $10/day? Seriously?

Even with the full panel at $20000 ... we are just talking about $200 per day. (The panel requires very little maintenance, and will last as long as a good keyboard. 10+ years)

Even with Resolve at $0 ... the rest of the things you need to make a decent suite (forget a top notch feature grading suite) are really way more expensive. I charge a fair rental for those devices. They usually break-even in their service life, and sometimes they make a profit, but they are not the point.

No one has ever rented my suite because of the cool gear in it. If they want cool gear there are other places in town that completely blow away what I have here - they cost more, but they are worth it if you need the gear. Both facilities are happy to work with me, and I love working with their toys when a client will pay for them.

And that's the central point ... I am the talent people want to hire (or not). Not Resolve, Color, Speedgrade or Baselight.

So, quit yer bitchin.

So ... Black Magic has lowered the cost to you of being in business - if you never need 4K or multiple GPU's/Rockets. You should thank them

[Craig Parkes]

Free resolve is about volume selling hardware. It's that simple.

How many places NEED a dedicated color correction suite, kitted up to run jobs through at high dollar with daily bookings?

How many ex FCP users doing web work and some broadcast work, in a field that is constantly converging, want to be able to monitor and grade well for TV Screens, and have had to drop Color as an option because FCP was EOL'd. Lots.

How many of those had Matrox boxes or AJA cards. How many, especially know with Avid's open I/O infrastructure, will be looking much more seriously at Black Magic cards.

I don't know the answer to that - hopefully BMD does, but the only logical answer is that they are looking at moving a lot of cards in the HD realm, as they probably see editing going the way of desktop publishing and that for their lower end market to grow it needs to get cheaper and broader.

Even someone who uses the video I/O of their edit suite every day, and maybe goes into a full scale grading solution four or five times a year, will now seriously consider going the Black Magic route over previous vendors they were happy with when kitting out a new suite. Someone looking for more power from FCP-X, especially when video I/O for that becomes common place, will be looking at Black Magic first and foremost because of free resolve, even though they may then never actually use Resolve, they are still probably 10 times more likely to get BMD card over AJA because they won't have a prior experience with any output card manufacturer, but one will offer Resolve free, another won't.

Yes, they probably have burnt a few early adopters, but their main business is hardware, so building that relationship is a smart one - would I be offering customers who had brought software Resolve since the first iteration of Resolve Lite came out some sort of rebate? Absolutely, that would be a good thing to do.

Just as RED gives away Redcine-X away free to support hardware that NEEDS that software solution to work to it's full potential properly, so I can also see BMD giving away Resolve for free to allow their various HD Hardware cards to work to their full potential, for those customers whose needs are more basic than a standard grading suite.

Loss-leaders aren't always smart business, but sometimes they are. I can't fault BMD for doing things DIFFERENTLY given the economy and the march of technology, but hopefully they will also be good to customers who brought their software, as well as their hardware.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Like Mr. Most, I was talking about developers being driven into the ground, not really colorists, although free software will certainly not help colorists who are not yet "name brands" either - and that's the reality of the market, whether you think it should be so or not.

I think that Black Magic has a plan for how they are going to pay their developers. Let them handle their business, I don't think you have the right information to run it for them.

As far as what a colorist can or can't do in this market ... its like anything else. Either you learn your craft so you can stand out, or you don't and then you should move on.

[Rob Ruffo]

+1 Good post.

If you're only getting paid because you "have something" that other don't... you're probably shouldn't be doing it.

On the bright side... with all this "democratizing" happening... at least things are starting to become more about skill/creativity/talent than just about "owning" things. We're all artists, not just gear owners, right? :wink5:

Again with the "we're artists" mantra. Of course we are (at least I hope so.) But we are also gear owners and that side is just a business that needs to make money in and of itself. Otherwise no one will buy gear anymore, and no one will have an incentive to develop new tools for us. I was honest and bought a legit copy of Resolve 2 weeks ago rather than pirating - and what is my reward for that except feeling burned and owning extra features that have no meaning in my market?

[Chris Puerstl]

I re-read your post twice and I'm still n ot sure on your point. Are you under an impression, that Resolve Lite is still limited in the number of nodes? It is not and it is perfectly capable of doing everything Scratch can do, up to HD, for free at that:-)

Hello Jake

I was under the impression that resolve light could only due two nodes per clip, you are right just read the specs my fault. I see that the limitation is upto HD.

Each software that is put out by whatever company is great and can do most of if not all of everything you require. For us Assimilate was a clear choice.

[Rob Ruffo]

Free resolve is about volume selling hardware. It's that simple.

How many places NEED a dedicated color correction suite, kitted up to run jobs through at high dollar with daily bookings?

How many ex FCP users doing web work and some broadcast work, in a field that is constantly converging, want to be able to monitor and grade well for TV Screens, and have had to drop Color as an option because FCP was EOL'd. Lots.

How many of those had Matrox boxes or AJA cards. How many, especially know with Avid's open I/O infrastructure, will be looking much more seriously at Black Magic cards.

I don't know the answer to that - hopefully BMD does, but the only logical answer is that they are looking at moving a lot of cards in the HD realm, as they probably see editing going the way of desktop publishing and that for their lower end market to grow it needs to get cheaper and broader.

Even someone who uses the video I/O of their edit suite every day, and maybe goes into a full scale grading solution four or five times a year, will now seriously consider going the Black Magic route over previous vendors they were happy with when kitting out a new suite. Someone looking for more power from FCP-X, especially when video I/O for that becomes common place, will be looking at Black Magic first and foremost because of free resolve, even though they may then never actually use Resolve, they are still probably 10 times more likely to get BMD card over AJA because they won't have a prior experience with any output card manufacturer, but one will offer Resolve free, another won't.

Yes, they probably have burnt a few early adopters, but their main business is hardware, so building that relationship is a smart one - would I be offering customers who had brought software Resolve since the first iteration of Resolve Lite came out some sort of rebate? Absolutely, that would be a good thing to do.

Just as RED gives away Redcine-X away free to support hardware that NEEDS that software solution to work to it's full potential properly, so I can also see BMD giving away Resolve for free to allow their various HD Hardware cards to work to their full potential, for those customers whose needs are more basic than a standard grading suite.

Loss-leaders aren't always smart business, but sometimes they are. I can't fault BMD for doing things DIFFERENTLY given the economy and the march of technology, but hopefully they will also be good to customers who brought their software, as well as their hardware.

The right thing to do would be to offer a full refund for anyone who has purchased Resolve with the last 4 months, or some reasonable time frame. At this stage people who bought it last week one could say were duped.

[Rob Ruffo]

I think that Black Magic has a plan for how they are going to pay their developers. Let them handle their business, I don't think you have the right information to run it for them.

As far as what a colorist can or can't do in this market ... its like anything else. Either you learn your craft so you can stand out, or you don't and then you should move on.

It's not THEIR business I am talking about, it's the entire field - they have hurt all their competition in a way that does not represent decent competitive behavior. I can guarantee that somewhere right now, someone just cancelled a development plan for a color correction software because of what they did, or at least reduced the scope.

[Rob Ruffo]

Have to agree here. And looking at it from another angle, this has always been an issue. Many professional applications have gone the route of free or dirt cheap over the years, and many others have become common acquisitions for those using pirated warez. 99.9% of the people using Resolve Lite or those with pirated versions of Photoshop, MAYA, etc.. are not going to do anything with it. They're not your competition, they're not to worry about. Sure, one or two of them might step up with some talent, but those are rare.

I can totally respect Rob's point of view. The free version of Resolve does everything he needs. On the other hand, how long has he owned the paid version? Did it not pay for itself in that time? I paid $900 for my first seat of Resolve and it paid for itself, and then some, on the first job I used it for. Bought a second seat of Resolve (from another reduser member via ebay) so I could put the dongle on my DIT cart, or have one to take with me. I'm not sure if that one is really worth-while now that the free version does so much. But hey, I've got it, so I'll use it.

All things considered, I just look at this from a different perspective. And that is Resolve is a free tool now that does a lot. The paid version, which has a street price of about $900, gets you some added benefits such as support for 3D/stereo, resolutions of 2K and higher, multiple GPU support, multiple Rocket support. Apparently I didn't realize that the free version supported the Rocket... But if you need those feature, then you pay for it. Rob is right about the noise reduction... It's pretty weak compared to Neat Video or similar solutions.

I've only had mien for two weeks - just finishing to learn it so I got $0 back. Like I said $1000 is not much to us, but we are exceptionally fortunate. My problem is the bigger picture. Red has a good philososophy - tools that are reasonable, not dirt cheap. Dirt cheap, as Mr. Most points out, can't help but drive everything down, including our salaries to the point where surviving is impossible for anyone without a trust fund.

[jake blackstone]

I think that Black Magic has a plan for how they are going to pay their developers. Let them handle their business, I don't think you have the right information to run it for them.

As far as what a colorist can or can't do in this market ... its like anything else. Either you learn your craft so you can stand out, or you don't and then you should move on.

Alexander.
I'm pretty sure you know, that Rob isn't talking about BM developers. You and I already had this very conversion, if you recall, not three days ago, where you proposed, that all developers should work for free, just like Linus:wink5:

[Rob Ruffo]

To this entire thread I say, rubbish.

I bill the same rate for a 10 hour day, $600, if you have me on set to shoot a 7D, or an Epic or an Alexa. It doesn't matter if we shoot Master Primes or DSLR lenses with screw on gears, my rate is the same.

Guess what? That's the deal with my coloring services too. I make my money though on my services ... at a measly $60 per hour (my current rate), plus overtime if required for rush work.

My coloring business was built on Color ... which was effectively free with Final Cut.

Speedgrade is going to be free with Adobe CS6. Speed grade kicks ass by the way. Its not Resolve ... but it doesn't need to be either.

Avid has some great coloring tools in their suite which is just $3000 and includes a lot of very flexible tools. Most people don't buy Media Composer Suite as a grading toolset - but it does the job for a lot of productions if the operator has the talent. So again - its grading tools are effectively "free."

Resolve being "free" is a non-issue to my business. Resolve at $1000 just delayed purchases of other BMD gear I desire to own.

$1000 is not the sort of barrier to entry that make rates differ. I mean, I'd price the paid Resolve software only for OS X at $10 per day in my suite.

(The simple math I use, is that the gear should pay off its total ownership cost in 100 days of rental - for most software that's simply the (retail price/100).)

All this bitching over $10/day? Seriously?

Even with the full panel at $20000 ... we are just talking about $200 per day. (The panel requires very little maintenance, and will last as long as a good keyboard. 10+ years)

Even with Resolve at $0 ... the rest of the things you need to make a decent suite (forget a top notch feature grading suite) are really way more expensive. I charge a fair rental for those devices. They usually break-even in their service life, and sometimes they make a profit, but they are not the point.

No one has ever rented my suite because of the cool gear in it. If they want cool gear there are other places in town that completely blow away what I have here - they cost more, but they are worth it if you need the gear. Both facilities are happy to work with me, and I love working with their toys when a client will pay for them.

And that's the central point ... I am the talent people want to hire (or not). Not Resolve, Color, Speedgrade or Baselight.

So, quit yer bitchin.

So ... Black Magic has lowered the cost to you of being in business - if you never need 4K or multiple GPU's/Rockets. You should thank them

100 days is not standard - it's more like 25-35 at most rental houses.

Are you really saying that you show up with an Alexa and charge $600 a day!? No, you charge for the Alexa rental on top of that (your time). Your argument does not hold up. I am talking about people being discouraged from BUYING software. It's not really practical to rent software and/or charge an extra for that rental, as it is a camera.

[Steve Das]

It's not THEIR business I am talking about, it's the entire field - they have hurt all their competition in a way that does not represent decent competitive behavior...

They hurt their competition ?...huh..isn't that what they are supposed to do ?
How many companies and devices did Apple put out of business with their phones ?

19 things an iphone replaces (http://exilelifestyle.com/19-things-you-can-replace-with-an-iphone/)
more than 50 things an iphone replaces (http://www.itwithiq.com/the-mac-whisperer/blog/more-50-things-you-can-replace-getting-iphone)

leading to...
Things Apple is worth more than... (http://thingsappleisworthmorethan.tumblr.com/)

[Scott Crawley]

I've only had mien for two weeks - just finishing to learn it so I got $0 back. Like I said $1000 is not much to us, but we are exceptionally fortunate. My problem is the bigger picture. Red has a good philososophy - tools that are reasonable, not dirt cheap. Dirt cheap, as Mr. Most points out, can't help but drive everything down, including our salaries to the point where surviving is impossible for anyone without a trust fund.

That sucks. Did you contact them? Maybe they would do something for you, though I wouldn't pin any hopes on it.

BTW, I didn't mean to suggest that you were gouging anyone... Some car dealers on the other hand are a different story.

Cheers

[jake blackstone]

They hurt their competition ?...huh..isn't that what they are supposed to do ?
How many companies and devices did Apple put out of business with their phones ?

19 things an iphone replaces (http://exilelifestyle.com/19-things-you-can-replace-with-an-iphone/)
more than 50 things an iphone replaces (http://www.itwithiq.com/the-mac-whisperer/blog/more-50-things-you-can-replace-getting-iphone)

leading to...
Things Apple is worth more than... (http://thingsappleisworthmorethan.tumblr.com/)

The Antidumping Act of 1916 is designed to stop the practice of pricing imports at a price substantially less than the actual market value.
Resolve is "made" abroad, so the law applies. Unfortunately, presently there is no US maker of color grading software:-)

[MichaelP]

I would hang on the dongle and have the full version myself. It's not like Blackmagic Design is going to stop developing the software. You don't know what farther differentiations will be added to the next version, and you don't know what type of jobs you might get in the future. With the dongle, you're set.

Michael

[jake blackstone]

Let me start buying stuff based on what it may become in the future. Not a bad concept...

[Rob Ruffo]

The Antidumping Act of 1916 is designed to stop the practice of pricing imports at a price substantially less than the actual market value.
Resolve is "made" abroad, so the law applies. Unfortunately, presently there is no US maker of color grading software:-)

There is an argument to be made that some people buy After Effects for this purpose. Adobe is in US.

To others: there is such a thing as respectful competition. I don't try to run my competitors out of business or destroy our segment of the industry when I bid on jobs. I don't even badmouth my competitors.

[jake blackstone]

There is an argument to be made that some people buy After Effects for this purpose. Adobe is in US.

To others: there is such a thing as respectful competition. I don't try to run my competitors out of business or destroy our segment of the industry when I bid on jobs. I don't even badmouth my competitors.

Adobe had never made a professional color grading software, AE included. People grading in AE needs their heads examined.

[Martin Weiss]

People grading in AE needs their heads examined.

Are comments like that really necessary? What do they add to the conversation?

[Tom.Wong]

Adobe had never made a professional color grading software, AE included. People grading in AE needs their heads examined.

masochists really love doing it jake.

[jake blackstone]

Are comments like that really necessary? What do they add to the conversation?

Because at any moments now people will start arguing, that they grade in AE. It happens every time. If you think this is an inappropriate comment, feel free to dele it.

[jake blackstone]

masochists really love doing it jake.

Exactly.
That is why I said that, so we will not start this old, tired argument with those very masochists:-)

[Steve Sherrick]

Adobe had never made a professional color grading software, AE included. People grading in AE needs their heads examined.
I will put it another way. What Jake speaks of is probably the way that After effects works with individual layers and if you picture a project with hundreds of shots, it could get a bit unruly. As to what you can do in AE with color grading, it has a lot of tools. But it's not a realtime grading app, and it's kind of clunky in that regard. So all in all, you use it if it's all you have or if you work a lot in AE anyway and it's a natural environment to do your color.

Did I get that right Jake?

[jake blackstone]

I will put it another way. What Jake speaks of is probably the way that After effects works with individual layers and if you picture a project with hundreds of shots, it could get a bit unruly. As to what you can do in AE with color grading, it has a lot of tools. But it's not a realtime grading app, and it's kind of clunky in that regard. So all in all, you use it if it's all you have or if you work a lot in AE anyway and it's a natural environment to do your color.

Did I get that right Jake?
Exactly. Thanks Steve for the great explanation, as usual.
I always advocate using correct tools for a given job and I strongly oppose creation of rube goldberg post solutions.

[Rob Ruffo]

Grading tools can be useful in AE - like for example when you are trying to match many layers composited together.

[jake blackstone]

Grading tools can be useful in AE - like for example when you are trying to match many layers composited together.

Hahaha. Didn't I say this will happen?:-))))
Just to be able to nudge a shot, doesn't make it into a grading software.
My original point was in reference to the absence of professional grading software manufacturer in US.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Are comments like that really necessary? What do they add to the conversation?

Given the context of this entire thread, I think it's fitting... I also happen to agree with Jake 110%

[Luis Otero]

+1.....

[Rob Ruffo]

Hahaha. Didn't I say this will happen?:-))))
Just to be able to nudge a shot, doesn't make it into a grading software.
My original point was in reference to the absence of professional grading software manufacturer in US.

OK, I would not use After Effects as a primary grader either, but you could still probably get away with that claim in court.

[jake blackstone]

Rob.
I really see where you coming from. It sucks, no question about it. You can clearly see my postings on the subject from the time the original free version came out.
Said that, I really do not see how you or anyone else would prevail in court. I'm not playing devil's advocate, just questioning the wisdom. Resolve does everything BM promised. And release of the free version hasn't changed this. There are no bases for return of the money, as much as it seems to be unfair. B&H has very liberal return policy and if anyone would let you return recently purchased product, they would. If not, you should keep it, because, I can't imagine BM maintaining such a narrow difference between free and paid versions. Well, at least I hope so...
I'm keeping mine because of just one feature- remote grading. Believe it or not, remote grading now constitutes more than half of my income. All of a sudden, now I can work around the world, in real time, in full resolution. No other software allows you to do that. So, as far as I'm concerned, full Resolve definitely worth the price difference. But, if you have no need for such feature, then that's a different story...

[shashbugu]

remember resolve Linux is still $19,000.

[jake blackstone]

remember resolve Linux is still $19,000.

Not anymore. It's $995 too... or it's free with the purchase of the panel...

[Hans von Sonntag]

Two things to consider:

1. BM is a hardware company. Software is the car that pulls the trailer of their hardware products. Normally they let third parties pull that trailer, with Resolve they have their own car. But the third parties are still generating more than 98% of the business.

2. Colour correction as a single process in a film finishing workflow is in many markets a diminishing task. In the lower parts of the industry people prefer to buy additional CC plugins for FCP over using Colour that comes free with FCP. Why? Because it takes quite an amount of time to learn and use dedicated CC software with all the tedious roundtripping/conforming issues. The better results are not worth the effort - in that particular market. This market has by far the biggest share in the industry.

In the higher end parts of the industry colour correction accomplished in the telecine process is now a very rare experience thanks to the digital revolution. CC is done elsewhere down the pipeline. Again, roundtripping/conforming, and even worse re-conforming, are time stealing obstacles no one likes. The natural development heads towards the NLE that incorporates all a colourist needs.

-----------


This entire industry is in a big deflationary spiral which has reduced many costs to entry on many new technologies - I'm just a little puzzled why you're focused on BMD, Rob - I mean, everything is getting cheaper - look what FCP-X did to the cost of entering Avid MC or Premiere.

Price wars are all around us, and everyone gets bit periodically by adopting earlier, rather than later.

Money is made by the impatient, who buy early and make their money back. But the patient ones, who are watching and waiting for their price points, are being rewarded with the savings. You just have to decide your approach to the systemic fluctuations in this marketplace.

Good Post!

As a longtime SpeedGraded user I switched to Smoke on Mac the day it came out. Not because SpeedGrade was not good at CC - on the contrary. I switched because I saw the huge benefits I would gain once I got through that steep learning curve (wasn't that steep, actually). Smoke is not cheap, so is the RedOne with lenses, etc... and so is of course Epic. For my kind of work I gain a lot when I invest early in emerging technologies.

---------

In 2-3 years the big A's will have upgraded their NLEs with professional colour tools. BM knows that. They know that Resolve is bound to die in a foreseeable future. Until then Resolve for free will sell more hardware than selling software for 1000 USD. I think it's that easy.



Hans

[jake blackstone]

BM knows that. They know that Resolve is bound to die in a foreseeable future.



Hans
And you know that because...?

[Hans von Sonntag]

And you know that because...?

Because it's obvious hat meaningful colour correction will be part of the more advanced NLEs. Do you think that Adobe acquired Iridas just to implement SpeedGrade in their suite? The times that a colour timing application in a bundle like we had it with Color and FCP is over. Color is EOL, so will be be SpeedGrade. The technology, however, will have an extended life in Premier Pro, AE, or already has in FCP-X.

Actually, don't you think that Lustre will finally live within Smoke as a new module? Not unlikely, really. And what is going to happen to Scratch? Would you be thinking of buying Scratch if you were in a market for a finishing application?

Mid-End grading programs don't have a bright future anymore. Have they been the big talk 5 years ago is now convenient finishing the story. No one wants to do roundtripping or tedious re-copnforming if all can be done in an NLE.

I'm pretty sure that Smoke will soon get real competitors, pricewise as well as regarding tool set and productivity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that BM does not see Resolve as a cash-cow with a bright future, at least I would not. They might have seen this differently when they acquired DaVinci. But time changed.

Lastly, Resolve has some good technology incorporated. Seeing that colour correction alone is not enough anymore BM eventually is developing a successor of Resolve, an application that is much closer to Smoke, needing tons of BM hardware. OK, that's pure speculation but possible, nonetheless.

Hans

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hans, you have smoke. are you now doing it all in one application? (editing, grading, finishing)
or do you split things up and use smoke as a finishing tool?
(i am really intersted in smoke)

[Ivan G]

Black magic has become a slaughter house. I applaud them for the products they've released that past year. These products are beyond affordable that would of cost easily 50x more. I have to agree with Rob though, but from the way BM has been doing business, I'm not surprised about the free release either. Did they replace a CEO in the past few years?

[Hans von Sonntag]

hans, you have smoke. are you now doing it all in one application? (editing, grading, finishing)
or do you split things up and use smoke as a finishing tool?
(i am really intersted in smoke)

Yes. All in one application.

Colour correction is not RT, no VFX is RT inside Smoke, only the sound tools are RT. But with some experience you can be very fast, much faster than NLE, VFX, CC and back to NLE plus no hardcore re-conforms anymore that made my life often a mess. All over now.

This said, Smoke's Colour Warper is a very good colour manipulating tool but not meant for quick grading as you are used to in dedicated CC apps. CW has been designed for typical problems you find when creating realistic comps such as matching colour values of different shots. But you can accomplish all you can accomplish elsewhere - it's just not as quick.

You can start editing inside Smoke like with any other NLE. You can conform from AAF and XML or EDL and you can export EDL and OMF (that you can also import).

Insides Smoke you can fix all the typical problems that one faces: conforming, grading, 3D comping incl. the best keyer in the universe, de-noising, re-graining, selective sharpening, realistic de-focus, smooth stabilizing, very good tracking, camera shaking, 2 and 3D titeling, masking, 3D re-lighting (not just Knoll lens-flares), rotoscoping, etc....and last but not least to a certain extend good sound designing.

Basically Smoke is an NLE on steroids that needs a powerful workstation, fast Array and an AJA Kona3 and good monitoring. But for meaningful editing you need that anyway.

You chave to pay a yearly subscription fee that is around 1.300 EUR. So far Autodesk has impressed me with their rapid development and half yearly upgrades. They seem to be very serious about Smoke.

Anyone complaining about subscription fees and heavy prices tags should remind him/herself that good software need a lot of work and talent to be developed. There is a reason why an Epic costs what is costs and there is a reason why good software is not cheap either. It's unclear for me how someone can develop great software and then "sell" it for free. The BM Resolve Lite thing is not necessarily a good move, IMHO. It somewhat trashes the value of colour timing, at least takes away the speciality scent of film grading. Happens a long time ago on the print side. Perhaps it's a good thing though.


Anyway, my Red-Smoke combo is a daily joy.



Hans

[Dan Kanes]

Why is Davinci Resolve Lite Free?

It's a Pre-emptive Strike against Technicolor - and really anyone else who might be looking to introduce a One-Light Timing suite.

I'm pretty sure Technicolor was developing a software color suite for ProSumers.

I still hope they do.

The more tools available, the better.

[jake blackstone]

Why is Davinci Resolve Lite Free?

It's a Pre-emptive Strike against Technicolor - and really anyone else who might be looking to introduce a One-Light Timing suite.

I'm pretty sure Technicolor was developing a software color suite for ProSumers.

I still hope they do.

The more tools available, the better.

So, now Resolve is a prosumer tool?:-) I guess it's just part of a course, that demonstrates the value of perception. And BM is the one to blame...
I wonder, if you think, that developing a professional grading suite is a trivial matter? Technicolor came up with some lame LUT for 5D and, voila, they are in the color grading software business.
If that's the case, then Adobe shareholders have a hell of a class action lawsuit against those, who authorized the purchase of Speedgrade...
And finally, Technicolor uses Resolve and Lustre in their own workflow. I don't see this changing anytime soon...

[jake blackstone]

Because it's obvious hat meaningful colour correction will be part of the more advanced NLEs. Do you think that Adobe acquired Iridas just to implement SpeedGrade in their suite? The times that a colour timing application in a bundle like we had it with Color and FCP is over. Color is EOL, so will be be SpeedGrade. The technology, however, will have an extended life in Premier Pro, AE, or already has in FCP-X.

Actually, don't you think that Lustre will finally live within Smoke as a new module? Not unlikely, really. And what is going to happen to Scratch? Would you be thinking of buying Scratch if you were in a market for a finishing application?

Mid-End grading programs don't have a bright future anymore. Have they been the big talk 5 years ago is now convenient finishing the story. No one wants to do roundtripping or tedious re-copnforming if all can be done in an NLE.

I'm pretty sure that Smoke will soon get real competitors, pricewise as well as regarding tool set and productivity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that BM does not see Resolve as a cash-cow with a bright future, at least I would not. They might have seen this differently when they acquired DaVinci. But time changed.

Lastly, Resolve has some good technology incorporated. Seeing that colour correction alone is not enough anymore BM eventually is developing a successor of Resolve, an application that is much closer to Smoke, needing tons of BM hardware. OK, that's pure speculation but possible, nonetheless.

Hans

Just I as thought Hans. You have the same information as I do- we have none:-)
Some things I agree, some I don't. But this discussion is getting out of the scope of this discussion.
And finally, I too can't wait for the Lustre inside the Smoke. That would be incredible!!!

[Dan Kanes]

Sorry Jake - I think you misunderstood me.

No, I don't think there is anything Trivial or Prosumer About creating a Grading Suite - or that Resolve is "Simply" a Prosumer Tool.

But - Can you imagine a company trying to create a $50 or even $100 software that allows you to do a One-Light Pass in a way that one might do that with Lightroom for photos?

From a Developer's Perspective:
What is the incentive to pay a programming team to create software that does the same thing, only with less power, and less options than Davinci Resolve Lite - which by the way is available for free.

This is what I mean by a Pre-Emptive Strike.

So - if technicolor were to pay developers to create "DP-Lights 'Lite'" software that would run on a Mac or PC - what would be their incentive other than market penetration?

Maybe you can explain that to me from a business standpoint.

And yes - I would Consider Davinci Resolve Lite to be considered a "Prosumer Option" because it is free - and everyone knows that "ProSumer" is about being "too cheap" to go professional. So, really it's like a gateway drug - it lets more people get exposure to a color correction suite.

Hopefully I haven't offended you - I am in no way trying to take away from the work colorists do, or software designers do. I am fully aware of that.

Resolve Lite is sort of an "Atom Bomb"

The same can be said of the Black Magic Hyperdeck. They released something at the "Lowest Possible Price Point" - smart buyers buy on needs, not price-point alone. But there are a lot of people who just Buzz something because it's cheap.

Hyperdeck is their "atom bomb" against Atomos (and sound devices, etc. etc. etc.) Although - I find it to be impotent since it doesn't do Pro-Res - which is what most "Cheap" people want.

As for the Technicolor Software - I am referring to something OTHER than the DSLR Lut they created. I was part of a Survey in which the notion of a single-pass "Prosumer" grading suite was discussed as a possible future Technicolor Product. That's where that came from.

[jake blackstone]

Sorry Jake - I think you misunderstood me.

No, I don't think there is anything Trivial or Prosumer About creating a Grading Suite - or that Resolve is "Simply" a Prosumer Tool.

But - Can you imagine a company trying to create a $50 or even $100 software that allows you to do a One-Light Pass in a way that one might do that with Lightroom for photos?

From a Developer's Perspective:
What is the incentive to pay a programming team to create software that does the same thing, only with less power, and less options than Davinci Resolve Lite - which by the way is available for free.

This is what I mean by a Pre-Emptive Strike.

So - if technicolor were to pay developers to create "DP-Lights 'Lite'" software that would run on a Mac or PC - what would be their incentive other than market penetration?

Maybe you can explain that to me from a business standpoint.

And yes - I would Consider Davinci Resolve Lite to be considered a "Prosumer Option" because it is free - and everyone knows that "ProSumer" is about being "too cheap" to go professional. So, really it's like a gateway drug - it lets more people get exposure to a color correction suite.

Hopefully I haven't offended you - I am in no way trying to take away from the work colorists do, or software designers do. I am fully aware of that.

Resolve Lite is sort of an "Atom Bomb"

The same can be said of the Black Magic Hyperdeck. They released something at the "Lowest Possible Price Point" - smart buyers buy on needs, not price-point alone. But there are a lot of people who just Buzz something because it's cheap.

Hyperdeck is their "atom bomb" against Atomos (and sound devices, etc. etc. etc.) Although - I find it to be impotent since it doesn't do Pro-Res - which is what most "Cheap" people want.

As for the Technicolor Software - I am referring to something OTHER than the DSLR Lut they created. I was part of a Survey in which the notion of a single-pass "Prosumer" grading suite was discussed as a possible future Technicolor Product. That's where that came from.

No offense taken Dan. No worries.
I just find it interesting, that no more, than only 3 days after the release of free version of Resolve, which I may add, has all of the very sophisticated technology under the hood, that it's big brother has, Resolve now is considered to be a prosumer product. It is still the same great software, that highest level of professionals use today, including Company 3. I have no intention to stop using it. Unfortunately, I feel, that BM in one fell swoop managed to lose all of the marketing mystique of Resolve. I want to be clear- BM has every legal right to do release a free version of Resolve. Resolve development team working very hard to bring new features, that users clamor. Support is simply second to none. And yet, I keep thinking, that somehow, in some way, may be just marketing-wise, BM has let Resolve users down. As I already said, now I do a lot of remote grading. Many of those remote producers pay an inordinate amount of attention to the "labels". They insist on foreign directors and DPs, they want foreign colorists as well. And they want the latest in tech too. Unless it's Alexa or Epic, they are not interested. Like it or not, it's just a reality. And frankly, local US producers are not that different. So, why do I tell this story? Release of free Resolve will directly affect many users around the world. I can be the best colorist out there, but if I'm using, what's perceived a "prosumer" or cheap tool, I don't stand a chance. Those producers will insist on using Baselight, Nucoda or Lustre. Society can keep saying, that it's what's inside, is what counts, but at the end everyone wants to date a model. And no amount of talent will change that perception.

[Rob Ruffo]

No offense taken Dan. No worries.
I just find it interesting, that no more, than only 3 days after the release of free version of Resolve, which I may add, has all of the very sophisticated technology under the hood, that it's big brother has, Resolve now is considered to be a prosumer product. It is still the same great software, that highest level of professionals use today, including Company 3. I have no intention to stop using it. Unfortunately, I feel, that BM in one fell swoop managed to lose all of the marketing mystique of Resolve. I want to be clear- BM has every legal right to do release a free version of Resolve. Resolve development team working very hard to bring new features, that users clamor. Support is simply second to none. And yet, I keep thinking, that somehow, in some way, may be just marketing-wise, BM has let Resolve users down. As I already said, now I do a lot of remote grading. Many of those remote producers pay an inordinate amount of attention to the "labels". They insist on foreign directors and DPs, they want foreign colorists as well. And they want the latest in tech too. Unless it's Alexa or Epic, they are not interested. Like it or not, it's just a reality. And frankly, local US producers are not that different. So, why do I tell this story? Release of free Resolve will directly affect many users around the world. I can be the best colorist out there, but if I'm using, what's perceived a "prosumer" or cheap tool, I don't stand a chance. Those producers will insist on using Baselight, Nucoda or Lustre. Society can keep saying, that it's what's inside, is what counts, but at the end everyone wants to date a model. And no amount of talent will change that perception.

+1 You obviously live in the same world, and are aware of the same realities, as I. As another example, Lightwave has a much better rendering engine than most 3D apps, yet, because it is cheap, it is viewed as a low-bugdet solution. But free is about as low as you can go.

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

...it is unavoidable that customers look at the constantly lowering cost of the equipment you use and equate that value with your value. When the equipment is worth less, you're worth less, regardless of how good you are...

Doesn't this seem fair? The intangible value of your talent has some monetary value to the customer, and that is independent of the equipment you use. But when the COST of the equipment you use has gone down exponentially, and you used to include that cost in your rates, then your rate needs to go down as well. You are paying less for the equipment. Pass on the savings. No? In the past, the high equipment costs created a smaller pool of 'talent' because the larger population just couldn't get to the equipment to even train themselves on it. Perhaps that allowed you to price your intangible talent higher (demand / supply), but now the number of people who are capable has also gone up, so you may have to price it less.

This is democratization, and its one of those things that those who are not on the boat are happy that its still docked and taking passengers, while those that are already on it want the boat to get the hell out before more people get onboard. That said, when a company sells a 100K product and then within a short cycle bumps it down to less than 10K, it'll hurt all those who bought it at a higher price, and never got a chance to pay it off.

I'm not being critical here, but actively trying to figure out business models that can be sustained, taking into account the new reality.

[Paul Russell]

Advancing tech has always driven this debate. 35 years ago, when I first started work, word processors were non-existent, but now they are ubiquitous. Does that mean that the cost of a good writer has gone down? Not at all, and in real terms good copy is still in demand and commands a premium, either in advertising or journalism. And the amount of absolute rubbish copy that we are bombarded with merely serves to show how good the real deal is.

Do you remember when synthesisers were first invented and musicians were claiming that the new tech would put them out of work? Instead they became an integral part of pop music, and even spawned a few new genres of their own.

As well as that, consumer's needs have become more sophisticated. We would no longer accept an annual report hammered out on a manual typewriter. We would scorn a presentation given on transparent sheets with an OHP. Although I would sit through a presentation like that if the presenter was talented, articulate and speaking about something that really interested me. Some of the best presentations on TED use hardly any slides at all, if any.

The people who have survived this pace of change have done so by a) staying at the cutting edge, b) focusing on what they are really good at, where their talent is, and c) finding ways to build revenue from it.

These days you have to constantly reinvent yourself to stay afloat. The days of learn-a-trade-for-life are over.

[jake blackstone]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

I guess my thinking is - why rely on the branding created by the equipment manufacturer for their equipment? Shouldn't talent create its own branding, its own aura of exclusivity if you will? Giving away that power to a manufacturer makes one a victim to their fortunes... and perhaps this situation demonstrates it best. If talent is not building a personal brand, won't it face commoditization at one point or another? And it does seem like the points are getting further and further compressed in time.

[Paul Russell]

Jake, you keep talking as if Da Vinci is the pinnacle of tech. It's not, because tech is always advancing. If you want 4K support, multiple GPUs etc, you can't use Resolve Lite.

It still takes bundles of skill, years of learning and bags of talent to use it. Not to mention the control surface, the calibrated monitors, the knowledge of frame rates and output methods etc. That's where your premium is.

Consumers/Prosumers can barely rattle together the money to get Magic Bullet Looks, let alone put the investment into monitors, control surfaces, hours of learning and 'the eyes'.

But if you put yourself in the mindset of valuing yourself with your hardware, all you are doing is cheapening your own value in your head, where the most important perception needs to be. The hourly rate of a post house used to include the massive investment in Smoke, Flame, Henry, Silicon Graphics Workstations (showing my age now), etc. Now it's more about recovering the running costs of rent, investment, talent and making a profit.

A good artist can always make money. The fact that paint was cheap and ubiquitous never stopped Picasso from making a shedload of cash. You are the talent, that's where your revenue model is. And when you get sick of flipping those spheres around, you'll still have your eye, so you could be guiding a team of kids all using the lower end of the software, while you supervise and make far more money by taking on more projects at competitive rates. See what I'm saying? Cheaper tech is an opportunity for you to build a new market and a self sustaining company based on your skills.

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

J...Silicon Graphics Workstations...

I worked for Softimage when their software suite was ported to low cost Windows NT machines (relatively speaking) and watched Silicon Graphics die a slow but sure death. It was a very valuable lesson learnt.

[jake blackstone]

Jake, you keep talking as if Da Vinci is the pinnacle of tech. It's not, because tech is always advancing. If you want 4K support, multiple GPUs etc, you can't use Resolve Lite.

It still takes bundles of skill, years of learning and bags of talent to use it. Not to mention the control surface, the calibrated monitors, the knowledge of frame rates and output methods etc. That's where your premium is.

Consumers/Prosumers can barely rattle together the money to get Magic Bullet Looks, let alone put the investment into monitors, control surfaces, hours of learning and 'the eyes'.

But if you put yourself in the mindset of valuing yourself with your hardware, all you are doing is cheapening your own value in your head, where the most important perception needs to be. The hourly rate of a post house used to include the massive investment in Smoke, Flame, Henry, Silicon Graphics Workstations (showing my age now), etc. Now it's more about recovering the running costs of rent, investment, talent and making a profit.

A good artist can always make money. The fact that paint was cheap and ubiquitous never stopped Picasso from making a shedload of cash. You are the talent, that's where your revenue model is. And when you get sick of flipping those spheres around, you'll still have your eye, so you could be guiding a team of kids all using the lower end of the software, while you supervise and make far more money by taking on more projects at competitive rates. See what I'm saying? Cheaper tech is an opportunity for you to build a new market and a self sustaining company based on your skills.
You need to forget about all this "artist is the king, talent rises to the top" etc. and come down to reality. I work in a commercial market with world class ad agencies. They couldn't care less about you and your talent. All they want is exclusivity and trendiness. I'm not saying, that those with established connections will not be able to continue. Some will, but many will not, unless they continue to dazzle them with the latest in buzz-word tech. That's as simple as that. So, keep telling yourself, that you're just as good as the shop, that has the latest in tech. I hope that makes you feel better, because ad agencies will never work with what considered a prosumer-type gear. End of story...
And you actually think, that people buy art based on talent of the artist? When was the last time you went to the gallery opening? Modern art is nothing without the marketing. The better marketing, the more expensive the art.

[Frank Cueto]

Yes, one can learn new tricks, get better at the craft, expand capabilities, offer more for less, work faster etc. But the sad truth is, most clients only want what's the latest and the coolest. They want Epics and Alexas, they want Baselights and Pablos. They couldn't care less, that tools offered by you are perfectly adequate and that you're are perfectly suited for a job. They don't want adequate, they want what's perceived to be the best at the moment and they want exclusive. They want to feel special. And like it or not, free will never be that. Free is not exclusive.
DaVinci used to mean just that- the best, most exclusive, it had a certain mystique. Unfortunately, BM doesn't seem to care about this anymore. That is why Resolve now being perceived as a prosumer tool. Marketing matters. Perception matters. It just does...

+! Sooo true... How many times I have lost a comping gig cause they rather get it done on a FLAME*? If only they knew that I run CIRCLES around the flame dude and we get the same job done in a quarter of the time... oh well....


Now, if I had a FLAME* .... ;-)

[jake blackstone]

+! Sooo true... How many times I have lost a comping gig cause they rather get it done on a FLAME*? If only they knew that I run CIRCLES around the flame dude and we get the same job done in a quarter of the time... oh well....


Now, if I had a FLAME* .... ;-)
Unfortunately Franky, Autodesk is stupid. For some unexplained reason, they insist on charging for their software. I guess they didn't get the memo, that now all software has to be free:-)

[Paul Russell]

Jake, I am in reality.

I spent 15 years working in world class ad agencies in Asia. My perception of what went on from the inside of those ad agencies differs greatly from your perception from the other side - isn't that always the case?

For example, I remember scripting the Web Without Wires commercial for McCann Erickson around 2001 or thereabouts - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUh1OJLJOgM). The Creative Director (Scott Brazil) insisted, and got his way, on using Oliver Stone to direct. Stone didn't bring the latest tech to the table, in fact he shot most of the ads on a mixture of 35mm and 16mm film cameras. The ad cost over $3.5 million to produce.

Ad agencies will work with whoever the CD and the Producer like the most. They want their egos stroking, they want awards, they want happy clients, and they want it all yesterday, even if they don't know what they want. The hardware is irrelevant.

[jake blackstone]

Paul.
You just proved my point. The agency wanted Oliver Stone and no one else will do. Of coarse they hire the director for his vision. There is not much tech to that, unless it's some kind of VFX heavy spot. Agency makes all hiring decisions. They are not tech savvy and they don't have to be. I work with many producers and technology is not their forte. They just hear buzz words and that is what they want. Epic is a superior camera in just about every technical aspect, but I forgot when was the last time I worked with it. It's all Alexa. Marketing!!!
Right now ad agencies are very excited to use my remote grading services, because it's new and not many people had used it up to now. But once it will become a common occurrence, I have no doubt, they will start requesting Baselight or FilmMaster or Lustre. Because that's what they know. I don't like it. It's just a reality. Plain and simple.

[Paul Russell]

Actually, I think you kinda missed my point. :smile: But I'm right in the middle of a big edit at the moment so I am finding it difficult to deal with the distraction of this conversation. I will leave you with this thought. If you were watching a performance by Stephane Grappelli, would you really care if he was playing a stradivarius or not?

Have a nice evening.

[jake blackstone]

Paul.
You missed my point as well.
Oliver Stone could walk in naked, drunk out of his mind and the agency still would be ecstatic, that they managed to bag THE NAME director for a commercial. Yo Yo Ma could play on cello borrowed from pawn shop and people still would give him a standing ovation. We're are not in the same situation. There is one Oliver Stone and one Yo Yo Ma. There are thousand of colorists to choose from. And someone, like you should know better, that appearances matter, notoriety matters, coolness factor matters, name recognition matters. You're confusing one of a kind, unique with a mass product. Prosumer is anything, but unique. Let's face it. You need all of the accoutrements of being special, just to be in the game, but if you do not care how you're going to make yourself unique, you're on for a long ride to the top.

[Paul Russell]

Well, mate, if you're arguing that the availability of Resolve Light means that some young kid could train himself up, work up a half decent reel out of nowhere, schmooze with the high level producers and CDs of multi-national ad agencies, convince them to risk colouring their enormous investment in cash time and client relations, and compete a skilled operator like you out of business, then maybe you are in the wrong business.

Or you could be that kid. And there are a few who are making that happen - see www.b3ta.com to see amateurs and pros creating memes that quickly turn into money. Several of the 'amateur talents' from that crowd are now making good livings in British TV and advertising.

Or you could think like Nevine Kamel and only deal with pros, because of the reasons she states in the post at the top of this page http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65788-Convince-me-why-my-EPIC-M-costs-about-5-times-as-the-Scarlet-package/page17 (this is also the reason that I work from my own home studio and charge full commercial rates, only charge out to multi-nationals who pay top dollar. No weddings, no domestics, commercial work only. Let the cheap guys run themselves into the ground chasing the cheap dollar)

You see, it's up to you to define your market and who you are within it, not the hardware or software that you use.
Your own words " appearances matter, notoriety matters, coolness factor matters, name recognition matters." - yes. So come on, play the game. If you want to be a rockstar colourist, learn how to use PR. Set up a website where you dish out tips. Do regular interviews in the trade. Schmooze, work the crowds. Please everyone. Or do a Lars Trier and piss them all off. Your choice. :smile:

You're not the first guy to see cheap tech affect his industry. That's been happening since Henry Ford. Resolve will be replaced by something else more advanced soon. If not by BM, then by someone else. I hope you'll be looking for, and riding that wave long before the rest of the crowd.

Got to go, I should be editing

[Peter Moretti]

Am I missing something here? Resolve Lite does not need BM hardware, right? Can't it run on any hardware? In which case is BM selling more hardware by virtue of the fact that people who own Resolve Lite will be familiar w/ the BM name?

[jake blackstone]

Well, mate, if you're arguing that the availability of Resolve Light means that some young kid could train himself up, work up a half decent reel out of nowhere, schmooze with the high level producers and CDs of multi-national ad agencies, convince them to risk colouring their enormous investment in cash time and client relations, and compete a skilled operator like you out of business, then maybe you are in the wrong business.

Or you could be that kid. And there are a few who are making that happen - see www.b3ta.com to see amateurs and pros creating memes that quickly turn into money. Several of the 'amateur talents' from that crowd are now making good livings in British TV and advertising.

Or you could think like Nevine Kamel and only deal with pros, because of the reasons she states in the post at the top of this page http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65788-Convince-me-why-my-EPIC-M-costs-about-5-times-as-the-Scarlet-package/page17 (this is also the reason that I work from my own home studio and charge full commercial rates, only charge out to multi-nationals who pay top dollar. No weddings, no domestics, commercial work only. Let the cheap guys run themselves into the ground chasing the cheap dollar)

You see, it's up to you to define your market and who you are within it, not the hardware or software that you use.
Your own words " appearances matter, notoriety matters, coolness factor matters, name recognition matters." - yes. So come on, play the game. If you want to be a rockstar colourist, learn how to use PR. Set up a website where you dish out tips. Do regular interviews in the trade. Schmooze, work the crowds. Please everyone. Or do a Lars Trier and piss them all off. Your choice. :smile:

You're not the first guy to see cheap tech affect his industry. That's been happening since Henry Ford. Resolve will be replaced by something else more advanced soon. If not by BM, then by someone else. I hope you'll be looking for, and riding that wave long before the rest of the crowd.

Got to go, I should be editing

And so, inevitably, the conversation turns into personal attack. You know nothing about me, so why so hostile and personal?
You don't agree, fine, stay on and argue your point... with someone else...

[jake blackstone]

Am I missing something here? Resolve Lite does not need BM hardware, right? Can't it run on any hardware? In which case is BM selling more hardware by virtue of the fact that people who own Resolve Lite will be familiar w/ the BM name?

Those people could do the same with an earlier version of Resolve Lite, when it was limited to two nodes.

[Paul Russell]

And so, inevitably, the conversation turns into personal attack. You know nothing about me, so why so hostile and personal?
You don't agree, fine, stay on and argue your point... with someone else...
eh? I'm not trying to attack you at all. Sorry you're taking it that way. I mean you nothing but the best. Seriously.
Just trying to help you out with an alternative POV, that's all. Nothing personal.

[Peter Moretti]

Those people could do the same with an earlier version of Resolve Lite, when it was limited to two nodes.

Right Jake, I realize that. What I'm wondering is does Resolve work with any hardware? If this is indeed the case, then BMD is making quite a leap of faith thinking that Resolve Lite buyers are going to buy BMD hardware. Wouldn't they be just as likely to buy hardware from Matrox, AJA, Motu, etc.?

[jake blackstone]

Right Jake, I realize that. What I'm wondering is does Resolve work with any hardware? If this is indeed the case, then BMD is making quite a leap of faith thinking that Resolve Lite buyers are going to buy BMD hardware. Wouldn't they be just as likely to buy hardware from Matrox, AJA, Motu, etc.?

Oh, I see what you'e asking.
No, you need to use the BM hardware, even if you use Resolve Lite. This is the only way to display the full size picture on a monitor. Nothing else will do.

[Peter Moretti]

Okay, now I get it. I guess my next ?, being an Avid (and soon to be Adobe) user, is if anyone can recommend BMD hardware that works well w/ MC6, CS 5.5 and Resolve? I'll be running an i7 w/ 12gig and a Quadro 2000.

[jake blackstone]

Okay, now I get it. I guess my next ?, being an Avid (and soon to be Adobe) user, is if anyone can recommend BMD hardware that works well w/ MC6, CS 5.5 and Resolve? I'll be running an i7 w/ 12gig and a Quadro 2000.

Decklink works great with resolve and MC6.

[Rob Ruffo]

I should have been more specific: People INVESTED in copies of Resolve. Small business owners, struggling to get by in this economy. BM burned us at a BUSINESS level (granted, me for only $1000, others previously for much more). I think it says nothing good about BM that they would be willing to burn their paying customers so casually. Yes, technology gets cheaper and cheaper, but generally software holds its value, or comes down in REASONABLE, stepped increments that are predictable. How long have I been upgrading my copy of Photoshop CS2? I never felt burned by Adobe, even though the soft is a bit cheaper now.

[David Collard]

Rob,
BM won't keep the free version "Free" forever. Plenty of us have had similar situations, particularly with Adobe
frequent upgrades and associated costs in the hundreds of dollars.

There are plenty of other examples of buying a "Sony" and a few months later a new one comes out
that is cheaper and better. What about guys who bought a full version of FCP only to discover that a new FPX at $199
was good enough? The list goes on and on. The comparison is fair because your real gripe is about money.

I'm confident that your investment in the next iteration of Resolve will be relatively cheap and the new adopters
of the latest will have to pay up. Nothing is free forever.