Fastest SD workflow

[Jason]

Hi all,

We work on a lot of projects on SD for the local TV stations.
I am wondering what is the most effective and fastest way to get the Red footages into SD for editing purposes.

We plan to edit on PC Adobe Premiere.. Right now, the way that I see is to use RedCine to convert the footages into DVCPro HD before bringing them to Adobe for editing.

But the converting process to DVCPRO HD from r3d files is slow, is there a faster or better way of doing this and getting the footage ready for editing for SD?

Our final output will be on SD.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[donatello b]

IMO forget DVCpro HD ... you have premiere so go with a cineform solutions ..
go with at least prospectHD .. edit in HD ( cineform prospect will be real time HD with PC premiere ) and then go to SD after editing ...

[Jason]

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I'll be using cineform yet, is there any other way to do it?

I know in FCP Mac , the QT reference files can be used to go for edit straight, but is there any way that is fast and efficient like this or do I have to go the long way of outputting from Redcine?

[donatello b]

based on editing with Premiere you have to render/convert the files to another file (like DVCpro HD ) ..

if you want to use the QT reference files then consider editing with FCP ...

i'm a PC'er .. i have a friends 24" iMac here and i do have to say it is much faster/easier dropping the QT reference files in TL then to render them out to another file ...
redcine doesn't work on any of my 3 PC's soooooooooo i have to get another computer ... i really don't want to be rendering out files over night just so i can edit on a PC !!!!! have to say the mac is looking pretty good at the moment ...

[Jason]

If thats the case, then seems like I have no choice but to get a Mac machine for Red.

The current system that I plan to work is intended for SD only, what system do I need for the QT reference to play smoothly on the FCP?

I am not aiming for high end machine yet, will acquire it in the near future for 2k productions but definitely not now.

Can you let me know what's the minimum requirements to be able to edit the QT reference intended for SD output?
Thanks!

[A. Bastaki]

see this is what i find unfair, and i keep mentioning we need Adobe support.. we want r3d files to play in ae and premiere natively.. and premiere should be able to edit 4k footage in rt. This is so unfair because mac users get more privilege than pc users... most of the industry is pc based... the out come is pc.. clients are pc users... they want wmv... they dont want quicktime files... everyones got windows media player.

My last benchmarking on my 9 gb octacore g5 showed that adobe is faster on winx64 bit than on osx. its pretty clear why... i mean as a software developer.. who would you rather support.. a million dollar industry or a billion dollar industry.. of course the billion dollar industry.. thats why cineform started pc... they know the market.
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[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

premiere should be able to edit 4k footage in rt. .

HI AKUBE..i think you are dreaming .right now :waaa:

[Ryan Patch]

The fact is that Apple has demonstrated a willingness to work with RED. Adobe has not. Apple has the resources and mobility to develop and implement RED integration quickly because they control all aspects of software and hardware.

Although the PC market is much bigger than the Mac market, the market that RED is selling to (the slightly-below mega-budget Hollywood producers) is hard-core FCP. Get used to it. From my work overseas, I understand that adobe and PCs are still very much the standard, especially outside of w europe, but the american market really is FCP.

Even if there was adobe support, you're going to invest $4000+ in a new PC editing station to be able to handle the RED footage. Why not just make the jump to Mac? They're easy to use and learn, and FCP was actually originally engineered and designed by the same people that made Premiere. They work very much the same.

And life is unfair. So is the film production industry.

[A. Bastaki]

well.. the thing is.. it was engineered by the same people.. it kinda looks same too.. but they don't really function the same. compositing is way better on adobe software than the solutions provided by apple. color sucks. and we really want to grade our stuff right, and ive got both buddy.. ive got fcs 2.0 and i got adobe prod. suite. Soundbooth kicks ass... after effects is the best compositing tool in the world.. hands down. premiere can cut. so why not adobe. why go fcs. to cut with fcp?? lol.. thats not an advantage.
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[A. Bastaki]

here's something to digest.

How would you feel if you bought a canon dslr and found out that you cant edit the picture because you dont have a pc. the software provided is pc only.... or in more common terms... the software provided can only open raw files on a mac.. but you cant edit em. you can only edit raw footage on the pc.

that would be pathetic.

with Red its like that...
you can view ure r3d footage.. but sorry you cant edit on a pc.
if you had a mac.. you can view ure r3d footage and edit.

how would you like it if you called canon up and told em.. i cant edit canon .raw images on my mac?! would you expect em to say .. well hey buddy "life is freggin unfair"
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[M Most]

How would you feel if you bought a canon dslr and found out that you cant edit the picture because you dont have a pc. the software provided is pc only.... or in more common terms... the software provided can only open raw files on a mac.. but you cant edit em. you can only edit raw footage on the pc.

I'd probably feel that I should have done my homework and asked whether I could open the files on a Mac before I bought the camera instead of assuming that it wouldn't be an issue.

Seriously, Red has selected to partner with Apple and Assimilate at this stage of development. They have said that others will be invited into the process at a later date. The simplest and most compatible post paths at this point in time involve use of Apple equipment. Other paths are available, but they aren't as smooth and they aren't as directly supported. That's just the way it is. Anyone using Red at this point in time should be aware of this, and they should be aware of it prior to using the camera.

[Rob Lohman]

see this is what i find unfair, and i keep mentioning we need Adobe support.. we want r3d files to play in ae and premiere natively.. and premiere should be able to edit 4k footage in rt.

I understand your point and we'll be working hard on integration. However, you have to understand that you have to start somewhere. You can't start out supporting everything under the sun. Apple was a good partner to start out with and they were willing to take the leap (together with Assimilate).

If we started out supporting everything under the sun no software would be available today and support would be a nightmare.


This is so unfair because mac users get more privilege than pc users...

Why? We have a PC workflow. Granted it's less efficient, but that will improve. Is it unfair that a lot of games etc. won't run on a Mac? As with any purchase do your research before buying it.

All our software is freely available for anyone to test and make sure they can work with it. Personally if I was serious about the movies I'm making I would dislike buying a Mac but it wouldn't be the end of the world (money wise).



most of the industry is pc based... the out come is pc.. clients are pc users... they want wmv... they dont want quicktime files... everyones got windows media player.

Maybe in the indie corner for example, but in the industry a lot of Macs and linux stations are in use as well. We understand the desires and are working on solutions daily.


i mean as a software developer..

We're a digital cinema camera developer who deliver software (free of charge) with their products.


a million dollar industry or a billion dollar industry..

It's funny that the big boys seem to have less problems with our current Mac solutions... I'm not saying your opinion is not valuable, it is, but please look at it from our point of view as well.


thats why cineform started pc... they know the market.

Which market is that exactly?

[A. Bastaki]

The whole market back then... when neither "average" pcs OR macs could edit HD. Cineform decided to go the adobe+pc way as a company that develops software. but lets leave cineform out for now.. because their software is an a$$ and so.. i wont buy their (im almost sure) pathetic prospect 4k.

I mean don't you get it... it's like photoshop or lightroom not being able to open some camera's raw file. you want to open our camera's raw file... you have to use this software and convert it to tiff and use it elsewhere.

I want to be able to color correct my footage with its raw capabalities with the amazing small size of redcode. isnt that why red made that codec format? to be raw and small? isnt red about being "modular" flexible.. cheap for the indi guy. indi's are on a low budget... and pcs are much cheaper than macs.

to date you cant run 1080p footage without a semi-maxed out system over fcp.

I've got a maxed out g5 mac... and im still getting frame drops.. stutters.. madness and beyond.. which is why i got pissed and moved to the adobe world. ive been using fcp and fcs for 5 years... when i dived into hd... i got alotta trouble. adobe production suite seems so stable on the windows side of the world.. ive got a canon xha1... it runs like butter on adobe.. so does my friends jvc hd 101u on it... and he cant get to use 720-60p on fcp.

RED.. please give the pc world a solution that allows them to use redcode natively.

Adobe is an ass for not supporting RED at this. They should open their code just like they opened it for the cineform guys. bastards.

And in the indi world... its been fcs, cs, and vegas.
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[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I understand your point and we'll be working hard on integration.

That's good news. I hope that Adobe will be cooperative. Actually, I don't think they have much choice.

[A. Bastaki]

yeah itll take them a while. especially when the whole industry becomes red based... theyll be begging for it. and when they do.. red should charge them.
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[Mike McCarthy]

Akube, you seem to feel that the world owes you 4K post-for cheap-right now. It can be done on both PC and Mac, but it isn't as easy as you might like.

Have a little patience. You make a lot of demands, but have you invested any money in the entities you are making demands upon? Have they broken promises to you about what they were going to do?

I doubt that Adobe is deliberately sabotoging Red editing in Premiere, although if you don't want to use Cineform, you may be out of luck for a while. If I was posting a movie shot on Red right now, I would use Cineform. Cineform is not perfect, but it gets the job done, and on cheap hardware. I am not a FCP guy, so I won't comment on the FCP-Scratch solution, but I hear that is works too.

[Chris Parker]

after effects is the best compositing tool in the world.. hands down.

What about Shake?

[Sven Seynaeve]

I think we have to be a little more patient, we'd like to have more sollutions of course, but this isn't a problem related to Red only . Like pana, we bought a new system just before xdcam hd was released, we had to purchase a new dedicated system all over again. Now with the introduction of dvcprohd, we had to do an update again, this time for free, but now a little later with the new avcintra hd it's the same all over again... Some camera's are not supported the time you get them, that's just the way it is and we can only hope when we invest that the system we buy will last as long as possible and won't be aged to much the next week we bought it;;;; Looking at the past I'm sure we may be pretty sattisfied that they are 10k sollutions who do their job if they need to, remember the avid times and protools times...

[A. Bastaki]

no i was just being paranoid.. i thought red wasnt taking the issue seriously.. i thought they went like "adobe" doesnt give a damn.. screw em.

hope that isnt the case, and im standing down from the adobe issue since some have assured that it will be resolved at some point.

atleast im luckier than others.. i do have a top-of-the-line mac, and i do have fcs.
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[Paolo Tinari]

pathetic prospect 4k.



Hi Kube,
can you explode this concept?

[A. Bastaki]

when i had cineform.. i think i had version 4. anyhoo...

1. color change during playback.. basically you couldn't see your applied color correction in motion unless you export. No ram preview or half resolution playback for better viewing quality.

2. i had to restart premiere.. a lot, because after a while the footage would just stop playing properly and stutter... i had no extra software running... it just happens.

3. after a while... you could only see stills.. the timeline runs ... and no motion picture... when you stop/pause... you see the picture of where you stopped.

cineform was run under 2gb's of corsair ram. wildcat vp990. win xp. premiere 2.0. 2 acer 19'' displays. 3.2 ghz HT intel processor.
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[Rah-ry444]

Sweet.

[Ash Bolland]

What about Shake?

hehe I dont think so. AE is very frustrating. Why is it I can play back
a clip on my desktop - yet in AE I have to Ram preview to play it back?

[Ash Bolland]

I understand your point and we'll be working hard on integration. However, you have to understand that you have to start somewhere. You can't start out supporting everything under the sun. Apple was a good partner to start out with and they were willing to take the leap (together with Assimilate).

If we started out supporting everything under the sun no software would be available today and support would be a nightmare.



Why? We have a PC workflow. Granted it's less efficient, but that will improve. Is it unfair that a lot of games etc. won't run on a Mac? As with any purchase do your research before buying it.
All our software is freely available for anyone to test and make sure they can work with it. Personally if I was serious about the movies I'm making I would dislike buying a Mac but it wouldn't be the end of the world (money wise).




Maybe in the indie corner for example, but in the industry a lot of Macs and linux stations are in use as well. We understand the desires and are working on solutions daily.



We're a digital cinema camera developer who deliver software (free of charge) with their products.



It's funny that the big boys seem to have less problems with our current Mac solutions... I'm not saying your opinion is not valuable, it is, but please look at it from our point of view as well.



Which market is that exactly?

Rob - We have read over and over your post quite a few times - and we have to say it comes across quite rude.

Of course you have give out free software - how else would we get the data of the camera? its aprt of the deal of buying a digital camera no??

I don't care about less games being on a mac? I'm not sure what this comment is about... pc's are just for 3d/games?
-


"It's funny that the big boys seem to have less problems with our current Mac solutions..."
You can't be serious - only the big boys use macs?
-


"As with any purchase do your research before buying it."

Excuse me? Are you saying that we did not do enough research before buying the red one and that if we are pc based and want to edit with a efficient workflow we made a mistake? Is this the kind of support we can expect from red for pc users?



I really hope not.

-

Umeric.