Red Cage or Big Magazine

[tj williams]

Originally I believe the RED Cage was developed to make the camera seem larger and more professional. It does give the camera a lot of handles!

I've been thinking about how I'd like my RED to be larger and the answer for me is a big magazine (on-board red raid)

kinda like how Panavision has either 400 ft. the standard Mag.hand held, crane etc. or 1000ft magazine on the dolly. What I'm imagining is the red raid, in a rear rail mounted configuration. There really is a style component in a 1000' panny mag. I mean you know you're not just shooting another spot.

I wondered if others here would prefer:
A. The RED cage
B. The big RED magazine

[Brook Willard]

You want something that can handle almost 1GB/s mounted on a camera?

[Andrew M.]

I've been thinking about how I'd like my RED to be larger and the answer for me is a big magazine (on-board red raid)

I wondered if others here would prefer:
A. The RED cage
B. The big RED magazine

RED RAID is 10GBits/sec

RED magazine looks cool.
I think in 18 months we will have something portable at 10GBits/s but not now.

Andrew

[Wade McDonald]

No offense, but that sounds pretty rediculous. It's not a sub-micro camera we're talking about in the first place. It's plenty big without strapping on the red-fridge.

Besides, if you need to compensate for something... buy a convertible. {kidding} :whistling:

[Rodrigo Lizana]

I believe the matter is that in the search of the perfect shape, the size/weight ratio is the clue. For example : while the Arricam ST/Moviecam Compact has good sizes and the possibility to have the mags top or rear mounted, their are to heavy. The 435 is too heavy too but it´s going to be the high speed champion for some time. The Moviecam SL/Arricam LT feels perfect in both weight and size. I´ve been shooting a lot with this camera (SL) and it´s a fantastic tool. On tripod it´s great. Handheld is the best, small light but enought to add the camcorder earthquake feel. It has balanced mags for steadycam use and you can change the VF to the long eyepiece. A little bit quiter and 150 fps capable and it should be the perfect film camera. I´ve heard many times that all this silent cameras are really high speed capable just that they don´t want to hurt their high speed camera sales....I found the Arriflex 235 too light and the 535 tremendously heavy. Don´t have real experience with Panavision cameras.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I for one LOVE the size and look of the RED ONE.
I don't see why you would need a bigger camera.

[Ace]

I don't see why this idea is so "Rediculous" as Wade puts it. A solid state memory array does this easily with room to spare. Its just expensive thats all.

[Andrew M.]

I don't see why this idea is so "Rediculous" as Wade puts it. A solid state memory array does this easily with room to spare. Its just expensive thats all.

Doesn't gets you RAW

[Brook Willard]

Yes, it gets you RAW. Just not uncompressed RAW.

[Andrew M.]

It gets you RED CODE
Is there a way to convert RED CODE back to the RAW without the loss of any information in it, including any pre-sets?

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I wondered if others here would prefer:
A. The RED cage
B. The big RED magazine

And I wonder if somebody ever has thought about noise ratio: You can have the biggest whatever you wan't if you like. But what, if you need a camera around 20 dB? And by the way: THIS IS NOT A FILMCAMERA, forget it, it's digital cinema. Why I need a filmmagazine as storage? We are in the future not in the past. By the way, I love the old filmcamera, most of them are beautifull to me.

[Brook Willard]

It gets you RED CODE
Is there a way to convert RED CODE back to the RAW without the loss of any information in it, including any pre-sets?

REDCODE RAW = RAW
Uncompressed RAW = RAW
REDCODE RGB [1080p and 720p only] = not RAW

No, there is no way to convert REDCODE RAW back to RAW... because it already is RAW.

There are no presets for REDCODE RAW or uncompressed RAW [beyond setting daylight/tungsten for viewing in-camera] - you just shoot it.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think an onboard magazine to record uncompressed RAW will happen at some point in the future. Probably within the next couple years... Definitely not this year, probably not next year either.

[Andrew M.]

REDCODE RAW = RAW
Uncompressed RAW = RAW
REDCODE RGB [1080p and 720p only] = not RAW

No, there is no way to convert REDCODE RAW back to RAW... because it already is RAW.

There are no presets for REDCODE RAW or uncompressed RAW [beyond setting daylight/tungsten for viewing in-camera] - you just shoot it.

Brook, I see we have misunderstanding.
I thought TJ wanted to use high speed port on RED to install RED RAID instead of RED FLASH or RED DISK which both are using eSATA interface.
So high speed interface on RED is shooting RAW including metadata.
eSATA interface for RED DISK and RED FLASH has lower speed and does what?
I have seen it in the other thread but forgot.
Most recent workflow diagram is here:
http://austinfilmtools.com/pages/gear_red_one/red_one_workflow.htm

So if there is no difference in RAW and RED CODE why we have two different labels on this diagram for high speed and eSATA?
I am bit confused here.
Andrew

[Brook Willard]

RED DRIVE and RED FLASH [small, onboard] can record REDCODE RAW and REDCODE RGB.

RED RAID [big, heavy, no official specs] can record uncompressed RAW.

[Andrew M.]

Brook, sorry for all these questions, so what is the difference in terms of data size between REDCODE RAW and Uncompressed RAW?
1:5 ??

[Brook Willard]

REDCODE RAW 4K@24fps = 27.5MB/s
Uncompressed RAW 4K@24fps = 323MB/s
Uncompressed RAW 4.5K@60fps = ~900MB/s

Subject to change.

[Brook Willard]

And just to clarify, the RED DRIVE can hold roughly 3 hours and 18 minutes of REDCODE RAW 4K footage.

Or approximately 17,873 feet and 8 frames of four-perf 35mm film.

[Andrew M.]

Wow, 323/27.5 = 11.75 ratio!
Can you get metadata out of 27.5MB/s stream?

[Brook Willard]

The compression is from both a visual and technological standpoint.

Yes, REDCODE RAW will have all of the camera's metadata encoded. The amount of detail in the metadata is currently unknown but what we've heard hinted is well beyond what anybody is used to.

[Andrew M.]

Thanks! Brook.
Andrew

[Brook Willard]

Glad to help.

[tj williams]

But Wade I already have a convertible??????................

RED RAID MAGAZINE: Cont.

Here is a link to a loaded up Panavision pic on their site:

http://www.stevelantzproductions.com/TPL%20Bio%20Photos/BTS-Panavision_1_LG.jpg
(http://www.stevelantzproductions.com/TPL%20Bio%20Photos/BTS-Panavision_1_LG.jpg)


The RED is just the right size for a camera body in my opinion.

There is an entire page of renderings of the camera on the RED site devoted to various configurations, about half of them show the camera with RED Cage. I've been told the reason for the cage was to make the camera larger. I thought this was strange myself.

If you look at the Panavision G Camera on top of the page note the body though heavier and wider is not all that much bigger than the RED. The size of a studio panavision set up is in: the large lenses, follow focus, matt box, lens light, asst vf,etc. and the 1000Ft Magazine.

forgive me if what I'm dreaming here is somehow technically impossible. I'm not all that computer savvy as many here are.

There are not pictures of the RED Raid probably because it doesn't exist in any finished form. Being able to record uncompressed or less compressed or just record the entire sensor for large screen shows seems to me like a nice thing. I hate wires from the camera so mounting the RED RAID on the camera similiar to the Genesis seems like a nice configuration. The look of the camera would be made very Cine. like and less wires to tangle. The RED already features the RED RAIL which would, it looks like have the strength to mount such a magazine.

Now before you say it is impossible remember the Kinetta guy way going to build his magazines out of Ipod drives. How much does this many Ipod or laptop drives weigh? every month a larger drive comes out. Maybe in six months this would be possible.

Just imagine with me a moment that it could be possible, would you want it?

It just seemed to me that the RED CAGE Didnt really serve any purpose I could understand.

[PaulClements]

I think the hope is that there simply won't be any point to shooting [uncompressed] RAW. Redcode RAW will hopefully be so close that it just wouldn't warrant the need too, therefore strapping something like this to the camera would be counter intuitive because the benefits would not outway the costs/problems.

If you think of the costs of storage for example, say if you used 500gb Western Digital Mybooks at about $200/£100 you can get about 5 hours footage stored on one of those, that's going to be $40/£20 per hour stored... imagine shooting entirely RAW and the costs of storage for that in comparison?

The beauty of it is though, that in 10 years time when something super duper lays 1000's of terrabytes on a fingertip sized module, Red will be able to pump out uncompressed raw data to it. It means that the RedOne shouldn't be surpassed by another digital camera for a very long time because the availability of decent recording and storage simply isn't widely available, affordable or necessary with such good compression.

[PaulClements]

TJ here's that link working (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.panavision.co.uk/images/welcome.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.panavision.co.uk/home.htm&h=275&w=540&sz=48&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=wTNeT9qagFfGsM:&tbnh67&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpanavision%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26h l%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There is a big attraction to shooting uncompressed RAW... But it's not because it's uncompressed. It's because that's the only way to shoot over 30fps for 4K and over 120fps for 2K. Or just to shoot the full 4.5K sensor size.

A big reason these modes are only available via uncompressed RAW (as I understand it) is because the onboard processors can't handle the load to compress higher framerate modes to REDCODE RAW. We can however record 1080p60 using the full 35mm 4K sensor size to REDCODE RGB on camera. I have a feeling a lot of people (myself included) will be doing that a lot of the time.

[PaulClements]

I thought you could shoot RedCode RAW to an offboard recording source. The problem being that you can't record the 110MBps (Guestimate 4 x 27.5MBps) needed for 120fps Redcode RAW using RedFlash or RedDrive onboard. This is a different beast to shooting Uncompressed isn't it? Or am I mistaken?

[Andrew M.]

TJ link doesn't work, can you fix it?

[Brook Willard]

I thought you could shoot RedCode RAW to an offboard recording source. The problem being that you can't record the 110MBps (Guestimate 4 x 27.5MBps) needed for 120fps Redcode RAW using RedFlash or RedDrive onboard. This is a different beast to shooting Uncompressed isn't it? Or am I mistaken?

The limitation is the internal REDCODE compression processor: it just can't handle and compress more than 4K@30p. Accordingly, you cannot record 120fps REDCODE RAW to the RED RAID because the RED RAID does not have a compression processor [to our knowledge].

Capturing 110MB/s is not difficult. Compressing almost 1GB/s into something manageable is.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I've been told the reason for the cage was to make the camera larger. I thought this was strange myself.


Do you really think they would spend all that time designing the Red Cage in order to make it larger?

The Red Cage has tons of uses, search back through the beginning talks about the Red Cage on DVX user.

[Ken Corben]

I wondered if others here would prefer:
A. The RED cage
B. The big RED magazine

True it would be cool to have a "Panavision feel" on set for traditional filmming. I think that the Red Cage will let a DP/Red operator build or minimize to their heart's content - even slapping on a big "mag" if it is more familiar.

That's the beauty I think of the system...it's a la carte.

[Brook Willard]

Something tells me that there hasn't been a whole lot of Panavision emulation thus far in the RED design process... and I don't expect it to start now. :laugh:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Panawho? :pirate:

[tj williams]

Andrew paul put it back in his post and I put another one up that works.

Brooke: Maybe Panavision is not the best example of a large camera used successfully for many years in film making. I gotta confess I do like the digital mag on the Panavision Genesis, better than the cage? so here is a link to a picture, you tell me?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f3/Pvgenesis.jpg/180px-Pvgenesis.jpg




I guess a one piece camera without a buncha cable running across the room with a Giant RAid on the back instead of the smaller (hand held, steadicam,crane) configuration for dolly work in dialog sequences is appealingto me.

[Brook Willard]

Well one is possible [HD data rate] and one is not [4.5K RAW data rate]. That's why you should use the RED DRIVE and shoot REDCODE RAW onboard... because the benefits of shooting uncompressed RAW do not outweigh the limitations of being tethered to a large RAID. What you want to happen is possible, you just don't need huge, unwieldy accessories like you do on the Genesis.

As for comparing the Genesis's recording system to the RED's support system... I don't see the point. One serves to store data... the other serves to allow for the mounting of accessories.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Another thing to consider about an onboard Raid HDD brick would be its safety in a hand-held configuration.

I don't think wer'e at the point in drive shock protection to be able to run a raid array while chasing after a screaming blonde in a horror scene or the like.

Not to mention, I'm a big fan of keeping my camera configuration as light and maneuverable as possible.

[Finner]

I gotta confess I do like the digital mag on the Panavision Genesis, better than the cage? so here is a link to a picture, you tell me?

I have used the genesis before and the "digital mag" is actually just a slightly changed sony hd deck. It is a little loud and only does HD resolution. I see absoulutely no need to make the red heavier or larger just for appearence sake. Keep the camera as small and light as possible with the most amount of resolution. Which seems to be what they have done. As far as the possibility of red uncompressed who can handle that in post anyways? I am more then happy to wait a few years for that option as there is no use for it until a cost friendly post solution is available.


Brook Willard Something tells me that there hasn't been a whole lot of Panavision emulation thus far in the RED design process... and I don't expect it to start now. :laugh:

Brook,
I am not quite sure if you are joking because you feel that red has taken ideas from panavision or not. I sure hope red is looking and stealing bits off of panavision and arri cameras. There is a reason panavision is the number 1 camera company, a lot of there designs and accesories work well and kick ass. Why not look at your competition take what good things they have and use them or make them better. It would be a huge mistake for red not to assess what is working and what isn't on the top industry cameras out. If they do not there will be a bunch of lacking areas with the camera. Sure no camera (ARRI, panavision) is perfect but these companys have had the advantage of building many generations of cameras and each one tends to get better. I am pretty sure this is something Jim is very clear of and will use to his advantage.

[Brook Willard]

I was mostly referring to their ungodly prices, rental-only strategy and elitism. Panavision isn't exactly "bringing it to the masses". Emulating Panavision isn't a good thing... but I agree that analyzing their products and improving upon them is good. To me it's almost a given.

[Finner]

Cool, That makes a lot more sense to me Brook. I was pretty sure I was misunderstanding you and now see that was the case and totally agree with you.

[Simon Dean]

There are a couple of interesting points here;
Size - the great thing about Red is that you can do it big or small. Small for getting into places other cameras won't go and big in those film situations that require big. I remember reading that Kiefer Sutherland finds it hard to act well to a small camera (Talking about HDV then I think) - in 24 I can understand this as the camera is often a 'person'. Sometimes you want presence.
Frame rates - we have to remember that this is the beginning of the revolution. Red is breaking new ground. Currently if you want high frame rates it's going to be hard to beat film (Think about those ultra high speed cameras in crash testing etc.). But these are early days and the red is designed modular. As holographic storage comes along, then the recording rates won't be a problem. I think we expect a lot considering digital technology isn't that old yet (60 years?) compared to film.

I think combining film and digital is going to be an industry in itself for a while as one beats the other in different situations.

[Rob Lohman]

Red cage was designed to give you lots of mounting options (both where and how to mount the camera as well as to mount extra stuff to the 'camera').

[Don King]

No offense, but I stand the "ridiculous" statement. What for do you need this?

The best form factor, the better.

[Andrew M.]

Don King, so how do you want to attach all the gears to it without the cage.
We are discussing the obvious here.....

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Tj if you want the look of that huge ass magazine.. then strap your lunch box to your red.. at least it will serve some sort of purpose..

or in all seriousness since you mentioned cables running aorund.. then make a small box you can wrap all your cables up in neatly and connect that to the red cage.

people wont care what the camera looks like.. they want to see what it puts out. some people who want to "look" like they are shooting a movie might care.. but people who ARE shooting a movie wont

[Jeff Kilgroe]

As far as the possibility of red uncompressed who can handle that in post anyways? I am more then happy to wait a few years for that option as there is no use for it until a cost friendly post solution is available.

I don't think there is any reason to use it in post... The only reason to even capture uncompressed is to gain access to the higher frame rates and possibly the full 4.5K sensor area. If the internal processing of the camera could keep up with the load, compressing 4.5K output and the faster frame rates would be a REDCODE RAW/RGB record option. I'm assuming that the practical workflow for capturing uncompressed 4.5K or 4K @ 60fps, etc.. would be to then compress to REDCODE RAW or REDCODE RGB on an outboard system before taking it into post. I doubt anyone is going to want to or even need to work with uncompressed 900MB/s footage anytime soon.

[tj williams]

When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around. Mounted on a dolly for spot production the portable deck had to be extension wired to the dolly from a deck operators position. Often we had to have an extra grip to just manage the cables from the dolly. When one piece camcorders, and wireless video came out, most of us old guys thought we had moved ahead technologically to the place we were with film origination.

To me moving to a system which extracts the highest levels of performance such as: Slo motion, longer record, and highest quality, by putting cables off to a second box doesn't appear to be a step forward in production convenience, to any great extent.

Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?

Zakaree: I don't have a lunch box we drink Latte's here.

I disagree, Many established Film camera people do care what the camera looks like. When Sony, Dalsa, Panavision, etc. brought out their HD and digital cameras they tried to keep them familiar to people who had used film cameras. The accessories were film accessories. despite their technological and pricing limitations they have enjoyed some success.

Old camera people are freaked out enough by things like hard drive recording and windowed sensors, a bunch of the folk who will end up operating this camera will feel uncomfortable with many aspects of it. What these folks bring to the party is the ability to light, block, and move in beautiful and subtle ways. Those who buy REDs for rental houses will configure their cameras to try and make them acceptable to the established high volume production folk. I frankly can't imagine a film/HD rental house putting the RED cage on. Maybe I'm wrong about this any rental house guys?

I have brought up my RED reservation to several of my friends who are established camera dept. folk. When I talked about the technology of the camera they were very interested. When I mentioned the single sensor and the ability to use PL mount cinema lenses they were leaning forward in their chairs. When I showed them the pictures.........."That looks like Science Fiction" "That is F.. Weird" "what will production think if I order this" etc. etc. It seemed to me the pictures of the unit without the RED cage seem to be more acceptable.

Making established operators comfortable is part of the priority RED's management should feel if they want to dominate this market. This is going to be more important at this NAB than last year.

RED has demos at NAB: I would suggest that one be set up with body, extended tube, VF with Rod, On Wheels head with no cage or rails except the lower rails for the mag and battery in back, Light weight 15mm support on front with follow focus, (Fiz might be nice) and a well accepted mat box with eyebrow and siders.

My RED Camera will look as much like a film or cine-matized digital tape camera as I can make it! I'm already selling a new work-flow. I feel no need myself to wear a propeller beanie while doing it.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

thats why red owners and operators will get the jobs on a red production.. no need to hire a panavision operator for a red camera if he will freak out because he isnt ok with it not looking like an arri or pana.

and plus.. think about this.. if your on location.. no specatators are gunna wanna stand by and watch and cough and have babies screaming if it looks like your pointing a bazooka or anti aircraft rocket launcer at an actor compared to if your aimin a sweet lookin pana at them..

[Antoine Baumann]

Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?

I think RED Rail is for shoulder, and RED Cage is for tripod, crane, attached to bar, or anything you want. Red team wanted the RED Cage to have a lot of hole, that you can use to screw the cam to anything.

antoine

[P Andersson]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/251_1172170159.jpg

why redesign, RED should stay with a more classic and comfy look

[Andrew Benz]

No fair agwah! You picked the handheld version!

[Poi Boy]

Wow ! so much concern about how the package looks or if the old guard will feel comfortable....whatever ! get over it, the images will do the talking.
Aloha
-A

[SF Geek]

I have to agree with TJ and Don King. I'm not sold on what the Red Cage is going to do for me. All camera AKS are made for a set of rods. Motor drives, matt boxes, follow focus, handheld stuff. I know I'm not going to want to have to mount on the Red Cage if i want to go from handheld to sticks. It seems that the uses for Red cage are more uncommon.

Although, now when I think about it, I might need the cage on the dummy side to protect the cables coming out of it.

[tj williams]

Agwah.... I think the small part further back, which is darker and has the crank on it, is the body all the scaffolding is called Edisonian Cage.

Zakaree: If it were only so, then the person with the best computer would get all the programming jobs.

Here's a nice pic of the dummy side of the RED fm the site:

http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_14.jpg

The handle easily unbolts to undersling the camera on Steadicam. There are extra holes for transmitters etc down the top. The underside which is nowhere shown is assumed to have several 3/8 16 threaded holes for mounting sachtler plate etc. The vf is shown here mounted without the upper rails let alone the cage. It's nowhere shown but looks like some sort of sliding mount. It needs to be for hand held, as this mounting of the vf is pretty far back unless the operators neck is built funny. The rear red rail mounts not shown here seem to me necessary to hold the Battery and mag. Chrozeil will probably build a front adapter similiar to the Sony: (here's a link:

http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/ZOLWSUSO.JPG

Then presto my follow focus and matte box, of the film camera riding on the front. I still have a lot of extra place to bolt on the unforseen, whatever that may be.

Just trying to think outside the cage!

[Cail Young]

Chrozeil will probably build a front adapter similiar to the Sony: (here's a link:

http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/ZOLWSUSO.JPG

Then presto my follow focus and matte box, of the film camera riding on the front. I still have a lot of extra place to bolt on the unforseen, whatever that may be.

You can directly mount front rails without using a plate adapter - both wide and narrow spacing.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Zakaree: If it were only so, then the person with the best computer would get all the programming jobs.


oh no i know.. im not saying if u have the best equipment u will get hired.. im just saying if you have experience with the red and are use to it.. then u will get a job over a guy who is use to an arri.. ( in camera operating positions)

but even in DP work.. there will be a change over from lighting a film set to lighting a 4k set.. so experience with the particular piece of equipment wins there too.. im not saying film dps wont adapt to 4k and learn it.. im just mainly talking in terms of whos use to what, and stating that a large magazine wont make or break the camera. :tongue:

[tj williams]

but even in DP work.. there will be a change over from lighting a film set to lighting a 4k set.. so experience with the particular piece of equipment wins there too..

Yes there will be a change, when you light a film set you have to know how it will look without seeing the image. When you light any electronic set you can see the monitor. I guess I don't see how that will be an advantage to you.
The guy who doesn't have to go back so much and look at the monitor will be faster all else being "equal"

SF Geek: Right angle connector sales are gonna go up in price and down in availablity!

cailong: So there is a way to have 60mm center 15mm rods at the correct distance below the lens mount center to mount light weight support accessories? Where did you find this?

PoiBoy: Imagine your mouse is shaped like a dice. Imagine your keyboard is bent up at the ends,
does this make you feel good?

[Poi Boy]

TJ
If my mouse was shaped like dice and my keyboard was bent... I would still kick ass because I have talent, I would make it work. I think you are prematurely freaking out about a lot of the form issues that will get sorted out by the time red one ships, especially unit 1150. I have faith in the team and in the marketplace to come up with lots of options for this camera in fairly short order.
Also, how high end DPs feel about the looks of the rig could not matter less. If the camera performs the way most of us think it will, all naysayer concerns will melt away within a few months of delivery, the proof will be in the images.
Aloha
-A

[Don King]

Don King, so how do you want to attach all the gears to it without the cage.
We are discussing the obvious here.....


I have to agree with TJ and Don King. I'm not sold on what the Red Cage is going to do for me. All camera AKS are made for a set of rods. Motor drives, matt boxes, follow focus, handheld stuff. I know I'm not going to want to have to mount on the Red Cage if i want to go from handheld to sticks. It seems that the uses for Red cage are more uncommon.

Although, now when I think about it, I might need the cage on the dummy side to protect the cables coming out of it.

I'm sorry but it seems I was actually misunderstood.

When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.

[Cail Young]

cailong: So there is a way to have 60mm center 15mm rods at the correct distance below the lens mount center to mount light weight support accessories? Where did you find this?

Just my luck, I can't track down the render, but if you look at the renders on red.com you'll notice that there are 100mm spaced rods that directly attach to the camera - there's a special piece in one of the renders no longer on the website that slots onto 100mm spaced rods and provides 60mm rods; looks a bit like knuckledusters...

[Kyle Mallory]

I gotta say, having read this thread over, it seems there is a conception that RED will sell itself. I think TJ is probably over-analyzing the situation, but he is fundamentally right.

It's a relatively easy thing to sell digital to a DP and to a lesser extent, even the director; that has happened over the last 5 years with HD cinema cameras, etc. But convincing the production company, and/or financing to risk workflow (ie, money) on a piece of alien technology is going to be a hard sell, a lot harder than I think a lot of people realize.

Given the choice between a RED DP and a ARRI DP, I'd take the ARRI DP in a heartbeat, because I know they have experience with a proven workflow. If you can light film, you can reasonably light anything. If you can light video.. well, you can light video. As a producer/director, I will hire a DP that knows the workflow I trust and am comfortable with. I would likely NEVER hire a DP, and then say, "Okay, great... go shoot on whatever you want..." He's going to have to convince me that RED can handle it.

I do think that the "look" of the package is secondary-- but there are perceptions about how that look translates to efficiency. If you start dragging cables across set, and having to hire cable wranglers, that is a problem... But if everything "looks" like it does (or a close facsimile thereof) on a film set, the director will be comfortable, the DP will be comfortable, the producer will be comfortable, and THAT is a good way to start a sale. Certainly if the camera can sell me on image quality, "future proofing" my footage, etc. those things will factor into my decision, more so than if it looks like a film camera or not, but I'm going to be more cautious about it. Whereas if it looks like what I'm used to, AND it does all that great other stuff too.. well, shit, all the better.. I'm sold!

The closer you can replicate a traditional production environment/workflow, the easier it will be to transition reluctant producers to the new RED workflow.


Kyle

[Poi Boy]

I shoot mostly commercials and in that arena, if the images are as good as what we have seen, it will be a very easy sell. I would also say that Knowing how to light is knowing how to light, no matter the medium. Certainly there are nuance differences between film and digital but no more so than say negative and reversal film (it ain't rocket science). I'm sure it will take a bit longer for red to be accepted in feature work but it is going to happen very quickly.
Aloha
-A

[Gordon Prince]

When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.
Agreed. This will be the best for everybody. There are different levels of filmmaking and movie makers.

[tj williams]

kylemallory: You got me, I am truly over analytic. I worry about the color of my shoe laces...I worry details to death so that my friends make jokes!
I hope a lot of the people on this forum read your post. Your discussion of preferred Dp skill sets is right on!!!

This perception that the knowledge of the digital work-flow is the most important aspect of Dp. work in a digital format, and that the ability to light is "not rocket science" which is so pervasive here is without much basis in the production world. I would have to answer that "mediocre lighting is not rocket science."


Poiboy: My point is not that you couldn't struggle through with a dice/mouse because I'm sure you are talented in this area, my point is why struggle?
A lot of my work is also commercials. and I agree the commercial directors will be easier to sell the camera to than features, just as this kinda "look" in a camera will not hurt in music videos.

Knowing what I want on my camera. I am making copys of some of the renderings to carry to NAB.
I hope some of these like the very light weight drilled and tapped top which the handle bolts onto in the rendering I referenced above, without red rod or cage is going to be made right away!

I have a coupla drawings done. I'm very interested in making accessories for the RED. I've already made some for ACL, HDCam, and Steadicam. I hope the RED folk will be open to allowing any of us who come up with accessories to post pictures on this site?

[Poi Boy]

I never suggested that knowledge of the work flow was the the most important aspect of DP work, it clearly is not. I just don't really see a struggle coming with the red form. As far as the lighting thing goes, you either can or you can't and it doesn't have anything to do with looking at a monitor or not looking at a monitor.
Aloha
-A

[tj williams]

You and I both used the term "rocket science" which is why I suppose you felt the comment was about you? maybe I used it because I'd read your post? my paragraph was a general comment not aimed at you. It's probably partly because this forum is about a digital camera and workflow.



it doesn't have anything to do with looking at a monitor or not looking at a monitor.

I can't quite agree with you. To light film you can't really use a monitor since monitors won't show what you will get. Generally those who have lit only video, are a little freaked out when they don't have a monitor. Just lighting fm the meter and eye is in my opinion a bit harder.

[Stephen Williams]

You and I both used the term "rocket science" which is why I suppose you felt the comment was about you? maybe I used it because I'd read your post? my paragraph was a general comment not aimed at you. It's probably partly because this forum is about a digital camera and workflow.



I can't quite agree with you. To light film you can't really use a monitor since monitors won't show what you will get. Generally those who have lit only video, are a little freaked out when they don't have a monitor. Just lighting fm the meter and eye is in my opinion a bit harder.

Hi,

I have seen many Video DP's adjust the contrast of the monitor to make there lighting look better!

Stephen

[Poi Boy]

TJ, like I said, you can either light or you can't. When I say looking at the monitor has nothing to do with it I thought you would understand that meant using your eye and a meter. I'm old like you and still use my eye and a meter but in fairness to the monitor guys, when you are working on a feature you see results pretty regularly, often enough that you know what you are getting not to mention the fudge latitude you have with neg film.
Aloha
-A

[Don King]

Agreed. This will be the best for everybody. There are different levels of filmmaking and movie makers.

Same viewpoint here. There's no a Red user type but several kinds of them.

[tj williams]

poiboy.....so I looked up the user world and you are not in Hawaii.... I wondered and I thought we might have mutual friends? Welina mai...

[Roberto B]

When I'm saying the best form factor will be my choice, I mean lightweight. As small as possible. And having the cage as the best option for a versatile use.:mail1:

[SF Geek]

I'm sorry. I guess I'm still not getting it. Why is the cage the best choice?

[Joel Kaye]

I'm sorry. I guess I'm still not getting it. Why is the cage the best choice?

The cage is simply A choice. There will be several choices. Rod support w/o the cage is already out there from a number of 3rd parties.

Everyone is going to have to figure out their own "best choice" for themselves... and that'll probably happen sometime after we can actually TRY this stuff. :biggrin:

[Chris Kenny]

I'd expect most indie filmmakers on a tight budget to just get the rail system, and possibly add the cage later, if they find they have a specific need for it. (From the photo tour, it looks like the rail system can be used with or without the cage.)

[Zk2007]

When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around. Mounted on a dolly for spot production the portable deck had to be extension wired to the dolly from a deck operators position. Often we had to have an extra grip to just manage the cables from the dolly. When one piece camcorders, and wireless video came out, most of us old guys thought we had moved ahead technologically to the place we were with film origination.

To me moving to a system which extracts the highest levels of performance such as: Slo motion, longer record, and highest quality, by putting cables off to a second box doesn't appear to be a step forward in production convenience, to any great extent.

Rob: Heres a place I truly don't get it! What exactly, can be mounted to RED Cage that cannot be mounted to RED Rail?

Zakaree: I don't have a lunch box we drink Latte's here.

I disagree, Many established Film camera people do care what the camera looks like. When Sony, Dalsa, Panavision, etc. brought out their HD and digital cameras they tried to keep them familiar to people who had used film cameras. The accessories were film accessories. despite their technological and pricing limitations they have enjoyed some success.

Old camera people are freaked out enough by things like hard drive recording and windowed sensors, a bunch of the folk who will end up operating this camera will feel uncomfortable with many aspects of it. What these folks bring to the party is the ability to light, block, and move in beautiful and subtle ways. Those who buy REDs for rental houses will configure their cameras to try and make them acceptable to the established high volume production folk. I frankly can't imagine a film/HD rental house putting the RED cage on. Maybe I'm wrong about this any rental house guys?

I have brought up my RED reservation to several of my friends who are established camera dept. folk. When I talked about the technology of the camera they were very interested. When I mentioned the single sensor and the ability to use PL mount cinema lenses they were leaning forward in their chairs. When I showed them the pictures.........."That looks like Science Fiction" "That is F.. Weird" "what will production think if I order this" etc. etc. It seemed to me the pictures of the unit without the RED cage seem to be more acceptable.

Making established operators comfortable is part of the priority RED's management should feel if they want to dominate this market. This is going to be more important at this NAB than last year.

RED has demos at NAB: I would suggest that one be set up with body, extended tube, VF with Rod, On Wheels head with no cage or rails except the lower rails for the mag and battery in back, Light weight 15mm support on front with follow focus, (Fiz might be nice) and a well accepted mat box with eyebrow and siders.

My RED Camera will look as much like a film or cine-matized digital tape camera as I can make it! I'm already selling a new work-flow. I feel no need myself to wear a propeller beanie while doing it.


I gotta say, having read this thread over, it seems there is a conception that RED will sell itself. I think TJ is probably over-analyzing the situation, but he is fundamentally right.

It's a relatively easy thing to sell digital to a DP and to a lesser extent, even the director; that has happened over the last 5 years with HD cinema cameras, etc. But convincing the production company, and/or financing to risk workflow (ie, money) on a piece of alien technology is going to be a hard sell, a lot harder than I think a lot of people realize.

Given the choice between a RED DP and a ARRI DP, I'd take the ARRI DP in a heartbeat, because I know they have experience with a proven workflow. If you can light film, you can reasonably light anything. If you can light video.. well, you can light video. As a producer/director, I will hire a DP that knows the workflow I trust and am comfortable with. I would likely NEVER hire a DP, and then say, "Okay, great... go shoot on whatever you want..." He's going to have to convince me that RED can handle it.

I do think that the "look" of the package is secondary-- but there are perceptions about how that look translates to efficiency. If you start dragging cables across set, and having to hire cable wranglers, that is a problem... But if everything "looks" like it does (or a close facsimile thereof) on a film set, the director will be comfortable, the DP will be comfortable, the producer will be comfortable, and THAT is a good way to start a sale. Certainly if the camera can sell me on image quality, "future proofing" my footage, etc. those things will factor into my decision, more so than if it looks like a film camera or not, but I'm going to be more cautious about it. Whereas if it looks like what I'm used to, AND it does all that great other stuff too.. well, shit, all the better.. I'm sold!

The closer you can replicate a traditional production environment/workflow, the easier it will be to transition reluctant producers to the new RED workflow.


Kyle


I agree with that. There's the reason the Genesis, Dalsa and D20 look like film cameras. The result of this effort is that for example, with the Genesis, it is being very well accepted by industry pros (DOP's) and I'm talking ASC here, not independents, wedding or ENG folks. This acceptance by the film pros is what will dictate whatever a camera will be used for major motion pictures or not. Notice how no major motion picture has been shot with a Varicam? DOP’s just thought 720p was not good enough and completely ignored the other camera features like variable frame rates and went with the F900. One factor is enough to ditch a tool in this industry. Now if all RED wants is the independent moviemakers, wedding, corporate, and broadcast markets, go ahead and ignore the form factor and release an alien looking camera and look cool. But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures, making the camera more " industry friendly", familiar looking and compatible to industry standard accessories will do wonders. It’s easy to see that just by looking at the reaction to RED in the Cinematography.com forums where a lot of ASC and industry working people post. Whatever we want to accept it or not, the old school guys are still the ones calling the shots. Some years in the future will sure change that, but for now, you still have to please them. A new tool still needs to have a connection to the past. This is a transitional time. Ignoring that may not be such a good idea. Not having ignored that may be one of the reasons the Genesis is so well accepted. 22 feature films in a year, including major motion pictures with major Directors and staring major actors like Superman, Apocalypto, Flyboys, Déjà vu and Click is a pretty impressive acceptance for a new digital system in such a short time. Studio heads also need to be confortable with the choice and an alien looking technology is not exactly the kind of gamble they are looking for. The more familiar the better really.
Yes, I know Peter Jackson and Cameron are supposed to be on line for RED but they are Directors and not DOPs and I doubt these Directors would push their DOPs to use something they are not comfortable with because that would compromise their films. They are probably most likely getting it out of curiosity or for personal projects ala Rodriguez.
But then again, as William Goldman wisely put it once, when it comes to the industry of cinema, “Nobody knows anything”.
Having said all that, I am a RED reservation holder.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I Now if all RED wants is the independent moviemakers, wedding, corporate, and broadcast markets, go ahead and ignore the form factor and release an alien looking camera and look cool. But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures, making the camera more " industry friendly", familiar looking and compatible to industry standard accessories will do wonders.

Hmm, never filmed a wedding, is this not one of the major themes in Hollywoodfilms? :innocent:

I do not understand all these worries about the question wether REDone is professional or not. Could be, that ASC-Guys fear there reputation if they should use a small camera without hundreds of boxes and, and... I think, RED has all important qualities of a professional film camera. I think, the most important thing what RED has to care about, is the sensor, the resolution, the flexibility. And the fact that the data amount can be stored anyhow on a hard disk or a kind of flashcard. DoPs should have inough imagination to understand why RED is a RED and not a Panavision. My advice: Let's wait until this camera is out - then there will be a lot of DoPs, directors, producers who would really like to shoot with this camera. And by the way: Wasn't there a time when people thought the earth is flat?

[Roberto B]

The cage is simply A choice. There will be several choices. choices.. here's the key..

[tj williams]

When I started this thread I made a kind of blunder. By suggesting the choice of a RED RAID larger magazine. In my mind raids come in a variety of sizes and capacities. Thus what I had in mind was more like the 400ft mag 1000ft mag dichotomy. I did not envision a huge refrigerator size box on the back of the camera. I also agree with filmmatkers gang above. If you look at my posted thread "NAB 2007 The Dream booth" it will give a better idea of my sense of the various choices which I feel the basic camera body could include.

This thread was started because I felt frustrated by the way RED's forum site managers, and trade show managers, chose to show the camera, we have seen gun stocks cages rails, strange glows, etc. but never seen the body in any of the many renderings, set up as most pros. will set it up. Again I hope you will look at, what I think are the most popular choices on the NAB2007 thread.

In a sense I started this thread as a kind of market research for the RED mfg. team. When they begin building accessories, what should they build.
I had hope for a kind of consensus, or voting, or split opinion, as to how many of the initial adopters would prefer to order 1 or more larger magazines with perhaps double the capacity. and how many intend to order the cage?

[Brook Willard]

Many sizes, indeed. The RED DRIVE is technically a mini-RAID between two 160GB drives.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Many sizes, indeed. The RED DRIVE is technically a mini-RAID between two 160GB drives.

And we're all assuming they will hold to using 2.5" HDDs in the RED DRIVE, so capacities will increase along with the hard drives it's based on. Currently 200GB 2.5" drives are available, but they don't offer the same level of performance as the 160GB models as they have an additional platter, fewer heads per platter and a slower rotational speed. Newer perpendicular recording techniques are coming into play now. Some of the current drives like the 160GB models and some of the 120GB models use perpendicular recording, but next generation perpendicular will bring much higher capacities. There have been rumors and unofficial claims/speculation that we'll see 320GB 2.5" 7200rpm HDDs by the end of this year.

Also don't forget that 128GB and 256GB 2.5" HDD form-factor FLASH drives were demonstrated at CES a few weeks ago. The 128GB models are due to hit store shelves mid/late summer and 256GB as early as the end of this year if the market receives the 128GB models well and prices can be pushed down. If the FLASH based drives can meet manufacturer performance claims (or at least come close) then they'll have no trouble outperforming magnetic HDDs. And I'd gladly pay a bit more for 500GB RED DRIVE based on those.

I coudl also add that 3.5" HDDs could be used to construct the RED DRIVE and would give significantly larger storage capacities. But with the increased storage also comes increased size, weight and power requirements. It may not be practical. Powering 3.5" HDDs via battery isn't a very elegant solution -- I've seen it done with larger "notebook" (if you could still call them that) computers. It's not a pretty sight.

[Joel Kaye]

But if they have any hopes of RED being well accepted in major studio pictures

How many movies do all the studios make each year (100)? How many movies TOTAL get made every year (6000+ NOT including BOLLYWOOD)?

Red designers are bending over backwards to be as compatible as possible. These guys have built MANY user suggestions into the design.

The numbers really tell the tale: RED has already taken 1500 orders. The guesstimate of the total number of F-900's out there is about 2000. It's pretty hard to call that anything short of astonishing considering no one owns a RED yet.

If 10 ASC old timers want to wax skeptical on some other board that's great. Doesn't bother me for a millisecond.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I recently spoke to a hollywood director who just wrapped a $150 million dollar studio film - he fully intends to shoot his next film with RED cameras -

Hollywood is slowly warming up to digital ... as soon as they start seeing low budget indie features shot in 4K ... they see RED fast ...

[tj williams]

So BIG MAGAZINE might be say 720GB? or maybe 1440?

[Poi Boy]

Right on Joelnet !

Hey TJ, what is user world ? and Welina Mai also sounds like something I should know. I know most of the production folks out here in the grass hut and jungle world.
Aloha
-A

[tj williams]

So BIG MAGAZINE might be say 720GB? or maybe 1440?

JoelNetQuote: "If 10 old asc old timers want to wax skeptical on some other board..."
Every year I learn about more things I don't know. I really look back nostalgically to those early years when I knew all there was to know!

Lets include Bollywood and call it 150 movies made by studios with distribution deals in front (of course this is a wild ass guess) now lets ask the question how many people in the audience. Like an airline the measure is seats filled!
How many saw the other 6000? I think we all know the answer...

[Poi Boy]

How is the number of butts in the seats relevant to red acceptance by grand pubba DPs ?? the answer is not at all. When the results get around it won't matter what the frickin cameras looks like.. period. it will be in demand by everyone.
Aloha
-A

[Appleton]

Wasn't going to post this, but since this thread keeps going like the Energizer bunny rabbit.

From another board :

What matters most is the practicality of the size for the type of shots you need to do (I don't really care if some vain actors or shallow producers only feel happy when they are surrounded by huge expensive equipment -- they'll get over it.)

There is a point where a camera that is TOO tiny (like a palmcorder size) is just too lightweight to do classic smooth tripod / dolly movements as someone pulls focus, or if the camera is too small to rest on your shoulder but too big to hold out in front of you.
But the size of the RED camera seems like a good all-around size, not too tiny but not too bulky (especially compared to the giant 4K Dalsa Origin camera). You can make it bigger just by putting on a big mattebox, studio follow-focus, onboard monitor, etc. -- and if you really want to go nuts, put a monster 35mm cine zoom on it like an Ang. Optimo! David Mullen, ASC

The point is that form factor (aesthetically) and trying to create a traditional workflow purely out of some faux sense of comfort is counter productive. like all other new cameras, RED will both borrow and adapt from a variety of workflows. what camera is chosen for a production comes down to too many variables to quantify (depending on the production). what is evident is that "talent" supercedes every other consideration. if enough talented above the line crew want to work with the camera it'll happen...and i've never been i a meeting where they scrapped a camera because of its aesthetics or even tech quirks.

personally, i'd rather be innovating than following - both artistically and technically. i'm sure there are enough DP's, both new and old who are sympatico with that.

one of the things i can't wait for, is for this forum to start talking about the creative with regards to directing, cinematography, and all other departments where RED is on set...less talk about why z bolt doesn't match q bolt on the o ring of the mitchell spring level, and why that means we you won't be shooting something with excellence.

maybe we'lll be talking about the tech serving the artist instead of the opposite...that's what RED was supposed to be about in the first place, IMZHO...

just my op.

[Poi Boy]

I feel you.
-A

[tj williams]

PoiBoy: RED USERS GROUPS theres a WORLD map at the top. Hawaii and another place I thought was only ocean have a few reservation holders? Maybe someone on a boat? did you put yourself there. couple others in Hawaii!
anyhooo couldn't find ya??? I'm in Seattle just wish I was in Hawaii, will be next September. going to watch a friend paddle/race outriggers.

Just my opinion but most businesses, and this is a biz, measure the importance by numbers served! profits made. Sure there are great films that are never seen, or poorly marketed or without wide appeal because they are whatever. Point bein 100/6000 apples and mangos.
When Panasonic brought out their cheap HD, they weren't after having it used in major features. When RED 1 was designed it is technically capable of major work, and I think the RED team wants it used in major features. I would also like that as it will add credibility and help me sell days on my camera... I guess at bottom it's about greed?

Anyway this thread has as the post above has suggested runs "like an energizer bunny." I'd say a crazy rabbit. My frustration with the RED site materials which don't show much about the camera design as probably mostly used, but show lotsa cages n glows has spawned the damndest collection of concerns anyone could ever have imagined:

Old versus young, strange verses standard, importance unimportance of the look of a tool, established Dp versus new, form versus function, etc. etc.

My only concern was that if I were going to add to the size weight of my camera I would have liked to add some additional function which I could presently understand as useful in a tool. ie a larger magazine.




some vain actors or shallow producers only feel happy when they are surrounded by huge expensive equipment -- they'll get over it.)

Whether the actors will quickly get over having something that looks like a prop from Aliens III pointed at them is perhaps another question. (joking around)



one of the things i can't wait for, is for this forum to start talking about the creative with regards to directing, cinematography, and all other departments where RED is on set...less talk about why z bolt doesn't match q bolt on the o ring of the mitchell spring level, and why that means we you won't be shooting something with excellence.

Well this is a little gear headed! Form factor in a tool and the tool enabling camera operators, to use the reflexes and physical skills they've spent a lot of time learning, seems to me like the technology supporting the artist if the artist we are discussing is the operator. 11+ stops of dynamic range, luts, high rez, etc. seems like the tool supporting the artist, if the artist is the Dp.

IF the artist is the director or makeup person or costume designer then it won't matter a rip how the camera is configured, or what camera is used.
There are a lot of sites that discuss these folks issues.

[Poi Boy]

I'm on the map man.. the most remote land mass in the world ! You'll be here in September? I'll have my 1st camera, you probably won't; let's get toghether for a cocktail and you can check it out.
Aloha
-A

[tj williams]

Poi Thankyou!

[Joel Kaye]

How many saw the other 6000? I think we all know the answer...

From RED's standpoint it doesn't matter if 3 people see the other 6000 movies... a whole lot more camera packages were required to shoot those 6000 than the big 150 studio movies.

But think about it - including TV there's a helluva lotta stuff being shot on F-900's, Varicams and even smaller cameras... plus a lot of SD. There USED to be a lot of 35mm shooting those shows. Those are all prime RED markets... and A LOT of butts in seats somewhere watching. How many people watch Battlestar Galactica (F900)? Something like 1 million on TV and 6 million online. Welcome to the future.

BTW, Netflix rents about 30% blockbusters and 70% from their catalog. That's the opposite of what a Hollywood Video or Blockbuster retail location does. Why? They can't stock as many units so they overload with blockbusters. But is that what people actually WANT? Apparently not if Netflix is an indicator.

I'm not going to sit here and say RED will be better than film for quality, but I'm am willing to say that it's going to put the quality so close that the average viewer (or distributor) won't have a clue what's what... and that will be a techtonic shift.

It may well be 5 more years before we start seeing the next generation break out with a lot of good low budget stuff though. This always reminds me of when the desktop publishing thing started. Most typesetters laughed but some bought a Mac and a laser printer.

[Don King]

The point is that form factor (aesthetically) and trying to create a traditional workflow purely out of some faux sense of comfort is counter productive. like all other new cameras, RED will both borrow and adapt from a variety of workflows.Versatility is the key indeed, since there isn't only a kind of Red One purchaser or user.

[Brainstorm]

Versatility is the key indeed, since there isn't only a kind of Red One purchaser or user.

There are as many types of RED users are there are RED buyers. We do not all want the same set-up... nor do we all want to watch the same type of films, thank God!

Biodiversity keeps our planet's genome healthy. Versatility keeps the human mind healthy. Monoculture kills the spirit of the mind and planet!

[Robert Jackson]

When portable broadcast video cameras first came out they cabled off to a video deck with a nice thick cable. It took a second crew member to carry the deck around.

I wish someone had told my producer that. I used to carry around an Ickegami tube camera on my right shoulder and a Sony U-Matic deck slung over my left shoulder. The deck was about 15 pounds, but you had to carry spare batteries. The camera was another 12-15 pounds and you needed to carry spare batteries for it, too. Not to mention stuffing as many of those 10-minute U-Matic tapes into the pockets of the deck's case as you could. I shot the opening season of the Orlando Magic with that rig in '89. It was pretty long in the tooth by then, but I wasn't the only guy still using them. By the end of the evening I'd feel like I'd done as much work as the guys on the court.

[tj williams]

RR yea I guess I had the high end of Umatic prod. but the other guy had to also carry the sound boom. This is why I hate the idea of a giant raid on a string. what a step backward!

Variety is the Key: This is my idea of variety. Maybe you can think of other setups I've not mentioned?

1. Cine Studio RED, set up with long VF/ leveling rod double mags or larger mag on a fisher 11 dolly mounted on a wheels head, with all the cine accessories, studio follow focus, binocs., top mtd lcd, lens light, sliding base plate 6by6matt box with eyebrow siders etc. etc.

2. Underwater RED basic red body special lens in it's underwater housing looking out the dome port from one of the mfgs of underwater housings. looking out of a water tank! best if there is a scuba diver operating it in the tank. acceptable if the operator just reaches down into a smaller aquarium.

3. Hand held cine RED like the renderings with the dual handles except with a zeiss prime lens, light weight follow focus with whip and clip on or light weight support matte box.

4. ENG RED basic body with padded shoulder pod and windowed MYSTERIUM using an HD lens with B mount to PL adapter, with zoom hooked up and powered from the RED body, extra mic. in a holster, four radio receivers on the back, shotgun shock mounted on top in a fuzzy cover.

5. Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.

6. Steadicam RED Probably MK IV ALIEN derived sled which allows the camera to rotate on the end of a super post so it can crane up and down. This is kinda the bleeding edge of steadicam tech. so quite appropriate to the camera, and Howard would probably love the exposure.

So go to the RED site and look at all the renderings. Now you tell me which of this variety of options is emphasized?

(*5)?

Do you feel the renderings reflect the way most will use the camera?

[Joel Kaye]

Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.


Hahaha. What a great setup. Just add monsters and karo syrup.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

5. Digital guy RED, Setup in a cage, hand held by a guy on a long-board with a full immersion helmet to frame with. Nikon 17to 35 with auto focus, auto focus nikon mount after-market attachment. transmitted video audio out by blue tooth.

Hey, I'm all for it if someone comes up with an autofocus add-on for the Nikon mount. ...Bluetooth isn't going to work, but wireless HDMI supporting up to 1080p60 is available now and it goes up to 200ft in open spaces or nearly 3x that if you boost the signal. :matrix:

[tj williams]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/751_1173156873.jpg

I decided to make some pictures for myself of how I would like to configure my red to get a better visual idea of what accessories I might need. Here is my
ENG/Doc. version using our HD lens it would shoot with the windowed sensor.
I was amazed after seeing the many RED renders on the site that when I sorta paper-dolled this together from several photos it looks rather like a conventional HD camcorder? It will be interesting to find out what buttons switches connectors do what so I will have a better idea of the ergonomics.