element technica breakout box first look...

[Jarred Land]

Hector dropped by RED today with their new breakout box. This thing pretty much kicks ass in every way...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_box44a.jpg

[Roberto B]

wooooooow kicking assesssss for real.. ehehehehe

edit
i loved that dof.. :love: :poster_oops: the bokeh :calm:

[Mark Pedersen]

Sweeet!

So when and how much? :)

M

[Brook Willard]

Ahh... finally. It's a thing of beauty.

Everybody needs one! I love that it screws into the body to remain stable... and it's low profile enough that it looks like a piece of the body. I hope that the little "plunger" to disconnect it is threaded so I can remove it to prevent things from catching on it.

So lets talk about the EVF and LCD cables that are both plugged in at the same time [both working?]... and the new LCD cable!

[Mark Mannschreck]

Very nice - sleek and lo pro... BUT it's totally blocking my four mini DINs!

[Jarred Land]

brook stop cheating.

[Brian Ferguson]

The center post almost looks like an old time focus hook. Wonder what the difference is from there to focal plane...

[Martin Ludwig]

where and when can we buy it?

[Rich Schaefer]

Wow, very nice!

[Häakon]

That looks amazing.

[Benjamin Rowland]

Looking forward to some great gear from this company.

[Frank Mirbach]

So, when will that thing be available ??

[luis bustamante]

could ship 185 with that thing installed?

[red1225]

Very nice....I'd be interested in purchasing the unit!! Is this a RED thing or is there website info for the maker?

[Anders Holck]

http://www.elementtechnica.com/

[Brook Willard]

brook stop cheating.

Heheh...:wink:

[Jarred Land]

That looks amazing.

Element is one of the few companies that we (RED) actually does the Industrial Design for on some products... this is one of them :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_cm-capture-11.jpg

[Adrian T.]

Element is one of the few companies that we (RED) actually does the Industrial Design for on some products... this is one of them :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_cm-capture-11.jpg

Is this mockup made of wood? :blink:

[Jarred Land]

no its real.. cell phone photo :(

[Justin Kirchhoff]

very nice....when is the question...

[Brent J. Craig]

Why won't Red just admit they put the wrong connectors on the camera? I find it hard to get excited about a box that fixes a design flaw.

[Mitch Gross]

Begs the question then...

Why didn't RED make it this way?

Mitch

[Clayton Harper]

Begs the question then...

Why didn't RED make it this way?

Mitch

Because it doubles the weight of the camera. :bleh:

Breakout boxes are DENSE.

[Mike Prevette]

^^^^ what?

the difference between mini bnc and full size would have been ounces at best.

[Clayton Harper]

^^^^ what?

the difference between mini bnc and full size would have been ounces at best.

Sorry, I was speaking tongue in cheek. :biggrin:

Back to the original question I guess.

Trying to keep the design as slim as possible in the most stripped down configuration? Maybe it doesn't fit within the cage?

Can someone speak to the advantages of mini-BNC?

[Brent J. Craig]

Can someone speak to the advantages of mini-BNC?

Hanging delicate adaptors hanging off of equally delicate connectors? Nope, that's not one.

Losing signal strength with each adaptor in the chain? Nope that's not one either.

Rendering 67 years worth of existing cables obsolete?

Adding additional expense and failure potential to every monitor you hook up?

Increasing service costs?

...still searching...

[vincelucero]

Can someone speak to the advantages of mini-BNC?

Yes please.

[Evin Grant]

My guess is circuit board space...
There might be enough room for the connectors on the outside but not on the circuit board underneath, that is unless you would have preferred to eliminate the dual-link HD-SDI ports, or the Genlock and Preview outs.

[Nick Gardner]

You can't make an argument for space. They should have just designed around the correct plugs. I think the Red team has done a great job, and frankly, I can't understand how they managed to fuck this one thing up.:glare:

Nick

[Mike Prevette]

HAHAHA sorry lordnumberzero I hadn't had any coffee yet.

I think the circuit board excuse is a little weak. Heavy use plugs should never be mounted to the circuit board. When they are they risk damaging entire boards if they misused. A plug with leads to the circuit board is a much safer option that doesn't take up much more space.

Plus all they had to do to add space was not put the recess into the body in the first place.

[Paris Remillard]

I do recall them saying last year that it was indeed the amount of space that the connectors would take up inside of the body. Something like it's not just how big the connectors are on the outside, but you have to factor in an equal amount of space on the inside. I also remember Ted saying something about the mini-BNCs being something that the industry would or should shift to, or something like that... don't quote me...

[Häakon]

Element is one of the few companies that we (RED) actually does the Industrial Design for on some products... this is one of them :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_cm-capture-11.jpg
Awesome... does that mean Matt is reasonably responsible? :bleh: He really does phenomenal work.

I know a lot of people are questioning why RED didn't do something like this themselves from the beginning, but seeing that the cameras are the way they are, I hope Element makes it easy for current users to get their hands on one of these - and soon. It actually looks like it *belongs* there, IMO.

[R. Gonzales]

Why won't Red just admit they put the wrong connectors on the camera? I find it hard to get excited about a box that fixes a design flaw.

Holly crap B, why are you so grumpy? :ohmy: Are you buying a camera?

Any way I hope you are enjoying the holidays, happy New Year.

Method

[Shawn Nelson]

I like it! Hopefully it's roughly the cost of four BNC connectors or less.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I wish it would have covered audio as well

Jay

[Brook Willard]

I'm personally happy that it doesn't cover the audio. I think that the audio should be saved for a separate breakout box. A big, full-size XLR breakout may be great on sticks or a dolly, but I'd hate to have the extra weight when handheld or flying. Hell, I personally think that second system audio is still the best way to do it. :)

Being able to have separate breakout boxes lets the user decide when they need BNC and not XLR, XLR and not BNC, neither or both.

Hey Jarred, any word on how secure the breakout box is without the mounting screw? For example, could I leave the breakout box hooked onto the BNC cables and just pop the box off like a big connector... move my camera... and pop it back on when I get there? One big "connector" is a lot nicer than two or three BNCs!

[Mitch Gross]

I just hope it is more secure than the old AJA box that stuck onto the side of the F900 to downconvert off the component connectors. I think it had one screw holding it on and it ended up breaking the connectors all the time in heavy use. The video monitoring out connection probably gets the most abuse on any camera.

It looks like they used the recessed body housing of the camera function as a cradle for the box, which one hopes would keep pressure off both the mini-BNCs and the lockdown screw.

I doubt it would be a smart move to keep pulling that box on and off the camera. You'll likely damage the mini-BNCs after a short time.

Mitch Gross
Technical Director of Rentals
Abel Cine Tech

[Robert Berger]

Hector dropped by RED today with their new breakout box. This thing pretty much kicks ass in every way...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_box44a.jpg

A lot better than little wires to big connectors and gaining a little weight doesnt mind when it gets more reliable, now the sound part.

Robert

[Brook Willard]

I doubt it would be a smart move to keep pulling that box on and off the camera. You'll likely damage the mini-BNCs after a short time.

Having disconnected the mini-BNCs on many RED bodies hundreds of time per camera, per connector on dozens of sets... I doubt it. They're surprisingly resilient.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

"Why won't Red just admit they put the wrong connectors on the camera? I find it hard to get excited about a box that fixes a design flaw."

I think Crewpix is not afraid to "tell it like it is". He doesn't have a camera on order, but being one of the best focus pullers around, he will be using a lot of them. He is a professional trying to interact in this forum that "says" it wants critical feedback on development.

Even all of the "converted" here say they are going to order this break out box, which again, begs the question...why wasn't it done that way in the first place?

I know one group that has 50 cameras on order who are also shaking their head at the mini BNC's and are planning their own breakout box.

My guess is, at this point, RED needs to get the cameras out!

The breakout boxes will be the norm until the "RED TWO", when i bet they will come around.

Love ya RED...but I don't get the mini BNC's?

Dylan Macleod, CSC
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Jarred Land]

"Why won't Red just admit they put the wrong connectors on the camera? I find it hard to get excited about a box that fixes a design flaw."

I wouldnt call it a design flaw.. since at the time it was a requirement for mechanical constraints... and macleod I'd like to know who at Red is saying that mini-bnc's are better then full size BNC's....... pm me.

Its been our number one complaint since day one, which is why we are so excited about helping breed solutions. People should just be happy that for full size lovers there is an option, just because it didnt directly come from us doesnt mean the solution should be discarded.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

the breakout box looks sickk

[C.H.Haskell]

This looks like a fantastic option...keep em coming.

[Wes Printz]

which is why we are so excited about helping breed solutions. People should just be happy that for full size lovers there is an option, just because it didnt directly come from us doesnt mean the solution should be discarded.

This camera is an opportunity for people to band together, and offer small items to the community, excellent place for small cottage industries, to offer solutions and develop the system.

OK, the DIN connectors may not be everyone's first choice, but it was a design decision made and produced. It does not render the camera unusable. Maybe there was a reason behind shipping evey camera with a DIN to BNC adaptor... to give people an option. I'm sure when the 12 Pin Hirose was dropped from production models people may have been upset. These guys are learning in the heat of the kitchen.

The motto all along has been "Revolution" Wouldn't the world be a boring place if everyone got what they wanted when they wanted and were satisfied?

[Jarred Land]

This camera is an opportunity for people to band together, and offer small items to the community, excellent place for small cottage industries, to offer solutions and develop the system.

OK, the DIN connectors may not be everyone's first choice, but it was a design decision made and produced. It does not render the camera unusable. Maybe there was a reason behind shipping evey camera with a DIN to BNC adaptor... to give people an option. I'm sure when the 12 Pin Hirose was dropped from production models people may have been upset. These guys are learning in the heat of the kitchen.

The motto all along has been "Revolution" Wouldn't the world be a boring place if everyone got what they wanted when they wanted and were satisfied?

Hirose was dropped because it just simply was a weak connector that didnt work well in our application and failed horribly in the field for us.. it was an expensive fix for us to make but we made it because it was the right thing to do.

The din connectors on the other hand, are fully functional, robust and the only issue is that its not an industry standard connector, and can be a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of cabling... but it does work and does not fail as much as it looks like it could... so its more of a subjective decision, and gladly one that people have the option to change with these boxes.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Why won't Red just admit they put the wrong connectors on the camera? I find it hard to get excited about a box that fixes a design flaw.

Hey Jarred

It was crewpix's comment that I was responding to...that I didn't properly quote!



I wouldnt call it a design flaw.. since at the time it was a requirement for mechanical constraints... and macleod I'd like to know who at Red is saying that mini-bnc's are better then full size BNC's....... pm me.

Its been our number one complaint since day one, which is why we are so excited about helping breed solutions. People should just be happy that for full size lovers there is an option, just because it didnt directly come from us doesnt mean the solution should be discarded.


I understand now from your response that it doesn't appear to be RED's first choice either, but an initial mechanical constraint.

I didn't hear from anyone at RED that the mini's are better than regular. I only made that assumption because that is the way the camera was designed with and it is what I will be consequently receiving in a couple of months.

Maybe there was an acknowledgement that I missed somewhere along the line that this was not an ideal choice, but a practical one.

Now I get it...I think?

Dylan Macleod, CSC
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[Jarred Land]

thanks Dylan for the explanation.. i think we are all on the same page :)

[Michael Morlan]

Actually, I like this bit of modular add-on since, when it fails after hundreds of cycles, accidental cable tugs, and the camera being sat on its butt, I can easily and inexpensively replace the little box instead of sending the camera in for repair.

Keep 'em comin'.

Michael

[Jarred Land]

agreed Michael.. and its nice it throws the cables backwards as well, which for some people is preferable.

[Arnaud Paris]

So back to the initial discussion... price and availability?
Thanks
Arno

[eltech]

As always it’s great to hear the feedback and diverse perspectives. First we would like to say thanks to Jarred and the rest of the team at RED for the continued support.

The breakout box pictured at the beginning of the thread is a first article of the final design. While that particular one wasn’t wired, another just like it was wired and installed for signal testing. We are currently knee deep in aluminum chips trying to get these finished and assembled.

As far as the functionality of the breakout box, the idea is to install it and leave it in place until you have a reason to access the original connectors. We did not conceive of it as a macro connector for the 4 signals. The stock connectors are high quality and high bandwidth commercial RF connectors. I cannot speak to the genesis of the decision to use these connectors but I know they are typically chosen when signal integrity and space are guiding requirements. Like most high quality RF connectors these were designed to survive 500 mating cycles just like the HD SDI BNC connectors in our breakout box. As Michael Morton mentioned, this box makes it possible to eat up the available mating cycles on an easily (and inexpensively) repaired component rather than on the camera itself. Had RED selected PCB mounted BNC connectors in the same place and orientation as the minis, we likely would have still built the breakout box if for no other reason than to take the stress off of the camera’s connectors and to re-route the cable toward the rear. The right side of the camera has a huge amount of IO going on. The current configuration makes the camera as slim as is physically possible while still offering the IO options.

We will be selling the breakout box for $580 US and should have adequate quantities by mid January.

Keep the feedback coming.

[C.H.Haskell]

we likely would have still built the breakout box if for no other reason than to take the stress off of the camera’s connectors and to re-route the cable toward the rear.

Sounds good to me...anything to reduce wear on the direct connections themselves. Its a modular system after all so I really like just the having options. You got my order.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

will your goodies_____evf mount__breakoutbox___rods will be available through red?

[Anders Holck]

Also very interested to know that.

[Clayton Harper]

500 mating cycles

Hehehe. "Mating Cycles" :biggrin:

[david farland]

....this box makes it possible to eat up the available mating cycles on an easily (and inexpensively) repaired component rather than on the camera itself. .....Keep the feedback coming.

Steve,
Looks beautiful however I would've expected mating cycles in the 1000's rather than 100's by using better coated contacts on the connectors. The inference above on mating cycles makes it sound like the adapter is a semi disposable (or repairable) item. I'm sure the last thing you want is another noisy connector in the loop. I understand thicker & different coated contacts cost a little more but can usually be purchased with varying thicknesses gold/silver/etc.

Dave,

[Wes Printz]

Amphenol Specifications call out 500 Mating cycles on the DIN 1.0/2.3 connector.

The 1.0/2.3 series is a European design introduced in the 1990s. The compact design of the 1.0/2.3 permits dense connector packing; they are ideally suited to applications where space limitation is a factor.

Amphenol 1.0/2.3 coaxial connectors are 50 Ω and 75 Ω units operating from 0-10 GHz. This series complies with DIN 41626, DIN 47297, and NFC 93-571 international specifications.

1.0/2.3 Specifications:

Electrical
Impedance 50 / 75 Ω
Frequency Range 0-10 GHz
Voltage Rating 250 volts peak
Contact Resistance Center contact: 6 Ω ; Outer contact: 3 Ω
Insulation Resistance 10,000 megaohms


Mechanical
Mating Slide-on, push-pull, threaded
Braid/Jacket Cable Affixment Hex crimp
Center Conductor Cale Affixment Crimp or solder
Captivated Contacts All crimps


Material
Male Contact Brass
Female Contact Beryllium copper center and outer, gold plated
Insulator Teflon
Crimp Ferrule Copper


Environmental
Temperature Range -40 °C to + 155 °C
Connector Durability 500 matings

Note: These characteristics are typical but may not apply to all connectors.

[david farland]

Not sure where you're going on the specs here but when I needed to choose a connector for a particular design application I'd be very mindful of what and how much contact plating to use. Make sense as you keep on inserting the connector, you rub off the gold plating. Better manufacturers usually give you the choice of the gold plate thickness which of course is pricier but gives you a higher mating count.

[Wes Printz]

however I would've expected mating cycles in the 1000's rather than 100's by using better coated contacts on the connectors. Dave,

Referring to your comment on the mating cycles, you seemed a bit surprised it was so low. True, you can have units made with different materials, platings, thickness etc.. it all adds up. Yes, it may add 2-4 dollars more per connector, but multiply that that 16,000 units, (based on reservation information) Not that they are cutting corners, but wanting to deliver the product at the price quoted.

Keeping in mind, the camera was initially priced at $17,500, That's a lot of bang for your buck. I'm sure there's not too much profit margin at this point if any, with all the R&D, improvements, etc... I'm sure it will be a while before this is a profitable venture for RED. I can imagine the major cost would be the sensor. My thinking is they may throw away more sensors than they keep due to quality control standards.

[Jaron Berman]

I know I'm going to be jumped all over because this is one of my first posts here, and it's negative, but this is ridiculous...

Jarred - unless I'm mistaken, the camera was conceived from the ground up by you guys. Hence any mechanical constraints stemming from the body shape and size would be self-imposed. As another poster pointed out - the indent on the side of the camera could have been flattened, with rear-swept bnc's which would provide some mechanical shielding - which I would assume is the purpose of the dent. Even with the Element adapter sticking off the side, the camera has exactly the same clearance it did before - limited by the FHG lemos.

Saying, "Its been our number one complaint since day one,"...out of curiosity, when a design problem arises internally, who do you complain to? Call it what it is, and congratulate Element for fixing a mistake. RED has done so many things right, I think you guys have the leeway to admit that this was a pretty dumb decision of function following form.

[Matt Uhry]

I know I'm going to be jumped all over because this is one of my first posts here, and it's negative, but this is ridiculous...

Jarred - unless I'm mistaken, the camera was conceived from the ground up by you guys. Hence any mechanical constraints stemming from the body shape and size would be self-imposed. As another poster pointed out - the indent on the side of the camera could have been flattened, with rear-swept bnc's which would provide some mechanical shielding - which I would assume is the purpose of the dent. Even with the Element adapter sticking off the side, the camera has exactly the same clearance it did before - limited by the FHG lemos.

Saying, "Its been our number one complaint since day one,"...out of curiosity, when a design problem arises internally, who do you complain to? Call it what it is, and congratulate Element for fixing a mistake. RED has done so many things right, I think you guys have the leeway to admit that this was a pretty dumb decision of function following form.

True, but this thing is forged in the fires of pure EGO - it would not exist as it does today if Red did what was moderate and reasoned and hung out with the pack. Luckily the few remaining design flaws that we inherit are not that hard to work around.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Jarred Land]

there has gotta be something in the water.. or Santa musta been not so nice this year... or some people arn't getting any....

alot of grumpy-ass people around...

[ShannonRawls]

We will be selling the breakout box for $580 US
OUCH! :weight_lift:


there has gotta be something in the water.. or Santa musta been not so nice this year... or some people arn't getting any...

LOLOL. (all of the above)

[Michael Hastings]

I wouldnt call it a design flaw.. since at the time it was a requirement for mechanical constraints... and macleod I'd like to know who at Red is saying that mini-bnc's are better then full size BNC's....... pm me.

Its been our number one complaint since day one, which is why we are so excited about helping breed solutions. People should just be happy that for full size lovers there is an option, just because it didnt directly come from us doesnt mean the solution should be discarded.

It is a lot easier to make something bigger i.e. with full size BNCs, than it would be to make the camera smaller if they had used larger connectors to start.

I salute RED for making the camera the way they did. It's high time that someone moved things forward, and maybe this will help get mini-xlrs and mini-BNCs more common and then it won't be an issue.

Remember USB languished for several years until Apple put ONLY USBs on the IMAC. Then numerous peripherals came out as USB and eventually PCs (and now even the RED) incorporated USB into their standard design. Had it not been for Apple forcing the issue we might still be using 9 pin unpowered serial cables.

There are numerous applications where the lightest weight and smallest profile are critical but there are almost none where the full size connectors would be used and the extra size weight of the element breakout would be a problem.

In other words, ask Brook how much difference a few ounces and smaller profile make when he straps a RED onto his head for skydiving (or skiing, skateboarding, etc.). Yet does it matter much that you had to put on the extra adapter for your studio or tripod or crane shot?

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

We will be selling the breakout box for $580 US and should have adequate quantities by mid January.

Keep the feedback coming.

so Please update us when it is ready for purchase ??
and where we can put an order ?:innocent:

[Brent J. Craig]

Hi. Grumpy guy here. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I appreciate finally hearing some answers on the mini-BNC design choices and having the community participate in a productive discussion about them.

I had not considered the idea that a breakout box could be semi-disposable and easier to replace when worn than the built-in connectors. This is a good thing and would actually make the camera more field-servicable.

Thanks, Dylan, for explaining my motivation better than I had. I do have a tendancy to tell it like it is on here because I will be the one at the pointy end of the stick when things don't work on set. Clients paying thousands of dollars don't really care that the inside of the camera was really crowded with stuff when they built it or that the body had to fit within an exact shape. They care if the pretty pictures they are watching cut out or disappear.

I truly see the Red as an eventual complete replacement for the film and HD cameras we use now. My primary goal on this message board is to encourage everyone to develop Red to the level where we can use it with confidence in every place we would normally take an Arri.

I have some pretty strong opinions about what a professional motion picture camera should be able to do. I have opened the door of a working Arri 3 and had water come out. I have held garbage bags around an Arri BL to protect it from sand tornados in the Sahara. I have used 435s in the Rocky Mountains in weather so cold a bottle of water would freeze solid while you were drinking it.


If you find it difficult to read honest comments and criticisms being made about your baby by a working professional with high expectations, there is a feature on this board to 'ignore posts by this user'. As long as the people with red-colored forum handles continue to read my rants I'm cool.

The give and take of professional discussion boards is healthy and it is how we learn. If this thread hadn't gone in the direction it did, I would not have considered how a breakout box could also be thought of a field-replaceable solution for delicate connectors.

I find I tend to learn more from a single negative-ish post than from 5 pages of "wow, you guys are the greatest" "nice work" "i gotta get one of these". Maybe the mods could start a Fanboy section for those posts or create a 'don't make me have negative thoughts' filter. :-)

[nick allsop]

Is there any new info on this BNC break out box, i see it as an essential item that clients will expect. i too was not happy with mini BNCs on the Red but now see this solution is possibly better than starting off with normal ones as the break out box can be replaced more easily.

[Harry Clark]

Stephen at ET told me that they'd be likely to ship this week and that they've gotten a TON of interest. I'm going to call them today to place my order. There is also a Red EVF bracket in the works that sounds really nice and of course they make the 15mm and 19mm bridgeplates and dovetails.
It's terrific that Red has good third-party support. Exciting times!
Cheers,
Harry

[Eren Ozkural]

Hi. Grumpy guy here. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I have opened the door of a working Arri 3 and had water come out. I have held garbage bags around an Arri BL to protect it from sand tornados in the Sahara. I have used 435s in the Rocky Mountains in weather so cold a bottle of water would freeze solid while you were drinking it.



Reminds me of Hutger Hauers speech at the end of Blade Runner

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate. All those ... moments will be lost in time, like tears...in rain. Time to die."

http://www.iainclaridge.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/roy.jpg

Sorry, I just got it on HD DVD...I digress...

It does seem dissapointing that team RED arent 100% pleased with their choice of connectors when almost every other aspect of the camera has been honed to perfection-in alot of cases publicly.

Pobody's nerfect...

[A. Bastaki]

what i dont get is... you can get a 17.5k camera.. and wait two years for it. but you can't get plugs and mini bncr cables.

the whole design is compact... mini xlr.. mini bnc.. mini stuff. i mean do like the normal xlr plugs... the normal bnc plugs... and i know it can be a pain in the ass to go.. place an order.. wait a week for them cables/adapters to arrive. you gotta love the hdmi out... i love that. but come on... cut the guys some slack, because back then.. we were drooling at red photos with those connectors... and i can't remember the point being raised well for bnc's.

Plus.. we should've mentioned this long time ago. when reds were in pre-prod. i wish i raised this issue when i had the chance. anyways... its kinda too late to start yapping now. it isn't entirely RED's fault to have those outputs that way. they showed us that a looong time ago and we could have said.. yay or nay way before they started production.
________
Ford kent engine picture (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Kent_engine)

[David Dennis]

I don't own a RED and can't afford a $580 breakout box but I hope you don't mind a little curiosity that might help others.

Your goal is to use the camera often enough so that on the average you are setting up and breaking down shots several times a day. If this is so, I would think that a $580 breakout box with cables rated to 500 mating cycles would be lucky to last a good year of ownership.

As far as I know, I can push and pull a USB cable once a day for several years and it will still work fine. People do that with iPods all the time and I'm sure they would be pretty upset if their $20 cable would last for only a year or so of use.

If it would cost $2 per connector to double the usable life of this device to 1,000 cycles, I'm truly baffled that you would not consider this. Your $580 device would turn into a $600 device because of all the connectors it has in it but I think people would then pay $650 for it and be happier than if you'd charged $580 for 500 cycles.

Why, then, is the usable life of these very expensive cables so short and if you have an expensive breakout box, why not use the longest life cables you can find?

It does seem like the breakout box is a good investment compared to the cost of repairing the RED camera's cables, so it seems like this might have been a reasonable design decision. People who use their REDs lightly can stick with adapters, while heavier users buy this kind of breakout box and preserve their cables.

It's noteworthy that a similar stink has come up about the new MacBook Air having a MicroDVI cable to save space. Since it's even more important to save space and weight in a camera that may frequently be handheld, I think RED's decision is reasonable.

D

[Evin Grant]

BNC Cables just get trashed on set. They get rolled over by dollies, wound up wrong by PAs and walked on, twisted up and generally beat to hell, so in any normal kit they will be replaced every year anyway so buying very expensive cables is pointless if you can get a strong enough signal out of a cheaper one.
I don't know the details of the connectors but usually manufactures rate those connection spec conservatively so I would expect the useable life to be substantially longer than 500. However my plan all along was to use right angle BNC elbows to relieve cable strain, this would give you a $3 connector to continuously wear out instead of your Break out box or your camera connectors.
http://www.wpiinc.com/products/lab-supplies/cables-pix/500256.gif

[Dylan Reeve]

500 mating cycles is the minimum rating provided by the manufacturer - which is probably the same rating as the BNC connectors on the back of an F900, or on your vidsplit unit.

It's not saying that they will stop working on connection number 501, just that they are rated for 500 mating cycles. A look around online seems to suggest that all readily available BNC connectors are rated at 500 cycles. It's just the standard. Most USB connectors seem to be rated at 1000 cycles.

I guessing that they'll go well beyond 500 cycles. And given they are carrying digital data, they can withstand much more signal loss than an analogue signal might.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

what i dont get is... you can get a 17.5k camera.. and wait two years for it. but you can't get plugs and mini bncr cables.

the whole design is compact... mini xlr.. mini bnc.. mini stuff. i mean do like the normal xlr plugs... the normal bnc plugs... and i know it can be a pain in the ass to go.. place an order.. wait a week for them cables/adapters to arrive. you gotta love the hdmi out... i love that. but come on... cut the guys some slack

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not alone with those sentiments.

everyone had the chance to speak up months and months ago. A few people questioned the choice and then just shrugged and said OK. Nobody made a stink over the mini connectors... Nothing like the massive forum-whine session over cold weather performance or other issues.

As for David's comments on connector mating cycles and lifespans, I have similar questions. Only rated to 500 mating cycles seems pretty low and $580 for a breakout box or connector block or whatever you want to call it, doesn't exactly inspire thoughts of it being disposable.

Other than that, the break-out box looks great, and will be a great option to have in my kit. But I don't have any problems with mini-BNC either. I don't have my camera yet and those I will be working with in the near future haven't got theirs just yet either. But I have my mini-BNC cables and adapters here and ready. Already had some before RED came along and the ones I'm going to need for sure, I've bought or made. If I missed one or two configurations, I'll just make them when the camera gets here, like if I need longer ones or whatnot. It's not rocket science, nor is it like having a root-canal... It's cables. Standard cables.

FWIW, I like the mini-XLR arrangement. I know I've been criticized for saying it on the forums before, but here it goes again. I expect any sound guy that's worth his salt to have mini-xlr connectors and cables in his standard gear if he's going to be connecting to other peoples' equipment. True it doesn't always work this way, there's a lot of bull-headed attitudes in this industry. Too many people think that their equipment adheres to "THE STANDARD". In my way of thinking, any professional who manages cables, connections and must connect various pieces of equipment together needs to pimp-out their gear collection and be prepared to hook up with anything.

[zak forrest]

BNC Cables just get trashed on set. They get rolled over by dollies, wound up wrong by PAs and walked on, twisted up and generally beat to hell, so in any normal kit they will be replaced every year anyway so buying very expensive cables is pointless if you can get a strong enough signal out of a cheaper one.
I don't know the details of the connectors but usually manufactures rate those connection spec conservatively so I would expect the useable life to be substantially longer than 500. However my plan all along was to use right angle BNC elbows to relieve cable strain, this would give you a $3 connector to continuously wear out instead of your Break out box or your camera connectors.
http://www.wpiinc.com/products/lab-supplies/cables-pix/500256.gif


Hey Evin, are you saying you will use some right angle connectors instead of your breakout box? Or you will use them in conjunction with the breakout box?

[Brook Willard]

Use the right-angle connectors on the breakout box.

[Anthony Gratl]

Use the right-angle connectors on the breakout box.

Why not just use the right angle connectors straight out of the camera? When Evin posted that, I assumed that that's what he meant. That's actually been my plan....do you see a disadvantage to it form or function wise?

[Greg M]

because the camera doesnt have a BNC connector.
and the mini-bnc is directly connected to the board

[Anthony Gratl]

My bad. Have to admit I wasn't paying close attention to the outputs for the sdi's, as the one I saw recently already had a custom breakout box on it, and I assumed that was to deal with the cable-coming-straight-out-of-the-camera. Thought that it was only the audio outs that were mini. So I guess mini bnc 90's don't exist? I get the feeling I'm crossing old ground....

[Greg M]

they do have a 90, but you would need a mini to bnc 90. bottom line is this would put too much stress on the camera connection, hence the breakout box.

[Stuart English]

what i dont get is... you can get a 17.5k camera.. and wait two years for it. but you can't get plugs and mini bncr cables.

the whole design is compact... mini xlr.. mini bnc.. mini stuff. i mean do like the normal xlr plugs... the normal bnc plugs... and i know it can be a pain in the ass to go.. place an order.. wait a week for them cables/adapters to arrive. you gotta love the hdmi out... i love that. but come on... cut the guys some slack, because back then.. we were drooling at red photos with those connectors... and i can't remember the point being raised well for bnc's.

Plus.. we should've mentioned this long time ago. when reds were in pre-prod. i wish i raised this issue when i had the chance. anyways... its kinda too late to start yapping now. it isn't entirely RED's fault to have those outputs that way. they showed us that a looong time ago and we could have said.. yay or nay way before they started production.

The USB analogy raised is a pretty good one I think. As a natural byproduct of RED-ONE cameras shipping there will certainly be more DIN and mini-XLR interface choices designed to fit the needs of our end users. Some will follow the above illustrated adaptor path, and some will follow the adaptor cable path that at RED supply with the camera. I think within a few months we will be surprised what options are available to choose from.

[Anthony Gratl]

they do have a 90, but you would need a mini to xlr 90. bottom line is this would put too much stress on the camera connection, hence the breakout box.

Thanks for responding digitalfx, although now I'm a little more confused. Thought we were talking about the sdi outs, not the audio outs....

[Greg M]

sorry typo

should be: they do have a 90, but you would need a mini to bnc 90

[Finner]

everyone had the chance to speak up months and months ago. A few people questioned the choice and then just shrugged and said OK. Nobody made a stink over the mini connectors...

Love Ya Jeff but your wrong. I raised a big stink saying mini BNC and mini XLR's were bush league!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Love Ya Jeff but your wrong. I raised a big stink saying mini BNC and mini XLR's were bush league!

Really? I missed out on that one. Hmmm...

[Finner]

Ya, but I kind of raise a stink about everything.

[Joel Kaye]

Really? I missed out on that one. Hmmm...

I griped about it right alongside Finner. And others did too. But I do think a lot of RED users just ignored it. We wanted volume pots too. I know I wanted a breakout cable terminal built into the camera. I begged for that... now what's the first thing we see people building? Friggin' breakout monstrosities...

I hate to say I told you so...

[Billy Summers]

Ya, but I kind of raise a stink about everything.

Ain't that the "F"-ing truth!!!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We wanted volume pots too.

Now I recall numerous posts on that. :)

[Adrian Correia]

there is nothing more valuable to the betterment of Red than raising a stink.

[Jason Wingrove]

im sure they'll fix it one day. XLR's can be pretty bulky things to integrate though but man should this thing have had BNC's for video from day one. Love to know the reasoning behind it but from the very first renders i saw i thought those mini BNC things would not last 5 minutes on any real world set.

[Mark Pedersen]

Stephan,

Is this shipping yet?

M

[Brook Willard]

...but from the very first renders i saw i thought those mini BNC things would not last 5 minutes on any real world set.

The funny thing to me that with about 500 cameras in the field and hundreds upon hundreds of "real world" production days across those cameras... I've not heard of a single mini BNC breaking.

Don't get me wrong, the breakout box is a VERY welcome product that I can't wait to get my hands on... but those mini BNC things are pretty freakin' tough.

[Alexander Nikishin]

The funny thing to me that with about 500 cameras in the field and hundreds upon hundreds of "real world" production days across those cameras... I've not heard of a single mini BNC breaking.


I've had 2 break on me during a month long shoot. They aren't the most solidly built cables, but in their defense I will say that they weren't always rip-tied off.

Some constructive criticism about the breakout box.........

I think it's a bad idea to have the direction of the BNC's running out back toward the operator.

All that will do is create more clutter on the back end of the camera, which I HATE.

If possible, please direct the cables out in the same direction that the RED mini's do, there is no need for more clutter and cabling (especially stiff, difficult to direct bnc cables) hanging off the back of the cam pointed towards the operator, just doesn't make sense.

A simple solution would be 90d bnc male to female adapters.....If these came stock with the box, that would be great.

[Mark L. Pederson]

The funny thing to me that with about 500 cameras in the field and hundreds upon hundreds of "real world" production days across those cameras... I've not heard of a single mini BNC breaking.


we broke a total of three on two features.

[Clayton Harper]

I've not heard of a single mini BNC breaking.


That's because nobody is using them right now. Wait until we get to sym outputs on Build 15 and 1000 cameras in the field.

[Finner]

I think it's a bad idea to have the direction of the BNC's running out back toward the operator.

All that will do is create more clutter on the back end of the camera, which I HATE.


Have to disagree with you Alexander. The cables facing back is the best part of the breakout box. I bet the reason many of the minis have broken is because they face sideways. Every proffesional camera I have used faces the cables back. Clutter on the camera is always safest and best at the back which is why the controls should have been put on the smart side and all the inputs on the back.

[Brook Willard]

we broke a total of three on two features.

Cables or the actual on-camera plugs? I've nuked a bunch of those crappy little cables... but I've yet to kill the on-camera plugs.

[Joel Kaye]

Cables or the actual on-camera plugs? I've nuked a bunch of those crappy little cables... but I've yet to kill the on-camera plugs.

Yeah, 5 plugs? If that's the case then there's a serious problem. I'd also guess that since multiple video ports haven't been enabled that most people aren't using them as much as they might in the future.

Where do you get mini to standard BNC cables?

[Mufu Giwa]

This tiny piece rocks, but RED should appropriate this and fix it on the base camera body for all.

[david farland]

All the connector stuff is simple laws of physics. First thing I'd do if possible, is take off that side (bulk head) plate and investigate how all the camera connectors are mechanically restained to what on/in the camera. Is it just a matter the pcb connector earth pins on the pcb providing the mechanical restraint or is there proper mechanical (independant to signal connectors) fixing. I'd argue the best way to run the cables out of the camera is 90 degress straight down to avoid twisting the mechanical or electrical connectors but that's also dependant on how you tie off the cable to the frame/ bracket etc.....blah, blah....Dave

[Alexander Nikishin]

Clutter on the camera is always safest and best at the back which is why the controls should have been put on the smart side and all the inputs on the back.

Ah, but the controls are on the back aren't they. :sarcasm:

[Brent J. Craig]

Ah, but the controls are on the back aren't they. :sarcasm:

Don't get me started on how wrong that placement is.

[Zaphod]

To sell more accessories.