2012: The Year of 4K

[Mark L. Pederson]

2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K.

4K Projectors for the home from more than one manufacturer - 4K TVs from 6 manufacturers that I am aware of. (5 confirmed - 6th is an exciting wild card rumor)

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/T8A4B6T8

You can talk all you want about the slow and poor transition to HD - and you can sit there shooting 1080p content and claim that it will be many, many years before we are watching TV shows in 4K - but .... you'd be DEAD WRONG.

Things are VERY different now. TV is the internet. HBO GO has better compression in HD than some carriers. APPLE's VOD numbers for indie films are insane (in a good way). There's COMPETITION to deliver content - Google, Amazon, Apple, Hulu (with more than twice as much as the combined total of video streamed from the websites of ABC, CBS, the CW, Fox and NBC) - so .... delivery platforms will need to differentiate themselves with QUALITY. I'm aware of one early start-up company already working to be the first all 4K broadcast channel.

2012 the 4K dominos will fall.

1080 is the next Black and White. (and yes - you can still make a good movie in black and white ala "The Artist" - but harder when it comes to financing and selling the content)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Definitely good, however, prices really do need to drastically come down... More importantly the size of the 4k Monitors need ot be in the 100" not 55",
the Samsung 9000 Series I got last year for 3D is insanely Sharp and fantastic in it self, but at 55" fails very short of my expectations of True Entertainment when used to the 133" Home Projection screen,
and the 300" Studio screen... But yeah, I can wait for 4k at home... ;)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Definitely good, however, prices really do need to drastically come down... More importantly the size of the 4k Monitors need ot be in the 100" not 55",
the Samsung 9000 Series I got last year for 3D is insanely Sharp and fantastic in it self, but at 55" fails very short of my expectations of True Entertainment when used to the 133" Home Projection screen,
and the 300" Studio screen... But yeah, I can wait for 4k at home... ;)

55" is ideal display size for a monitor IMO. Want a bigger screen? I have already seen the 4K projector working - with my own eyes - that will make your dreams come true :)

[David Rasberry]

The local Regal Cineplex converted 14 of their 16 theaters to 4k since my last visit. Theaters are already done.

[KETCH ROSSi]

55" is ideal display size for a monitor IMO. Want a bigger screen? I have already seen the 4K projector working - with my own eyes - that will make your dreams come true :)

he he, you have no idea how much I'm looking forward to RED's 4K Laser projector... But I also do love to have a 100" 4K TV at home, besides at work for Grading, I guess I become a bit spoiled
but again, with the promised quality of RED's 4K laser projector, then you could be right, and 55" 4k Monitor is al we would need to compliment to the Projector... ;)

[Claus Mueller]

.... and Apple goes retina on all devices. I bet that we‘ll see iMac 4K / Cinema 4K Display in 2012 as well...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/12/14/apple_rumored_to_launch_2880x1800_retina_display_m acbook_pro_in_q2_2012.html

[Mark L. Pederson]

.... and Apple goes retina on all devices. I bet that we‘ll see iMac 4K / Cinema 4K Display in 2012 as well...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/12/14/apple_rumored_to_launch_2880x1800_retina_display_m acbook_pro_in_q2_2012.html

Yes - APPLE is the wild card rumor - I have had a couple sources tell me that APPLE will releases a Smart TV is 55" OLED 4K in the fall of 2012. Hard to know with APPLE - their cards are so close to their chest - but - I have heard chatter from some folks who are pretty connected - rumors have been wrong before - but that would be amazing IMO. That said ... I'm still waiting for my F#@KING NEW MACPRO :)

[Gabriele Turchi]

i am reading a lot around about 4K as 3840 x 2160 ... even this JVC

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102123 use 3840 x 2160 as 4K .... (i know that JVC is not true 3840 x 2160 and most import does not accept any signal higher than full HD)....

so is 3840 x 2160 the official 4K resolution ??

i am wondering how is possible the Home entertainment product will be launched in the market without having 4K content such as Blu Ray etc...
do you think that blu ray will update to 4K specs very soon ?

g

[Mark L. Pederson]

i am reading a lot around about 4K as 3840 x 2160 ... even this JVC

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102123 use 3840 x 2160 as 4K .... (i know that JVC is not true 3840 x 2160 and most import does not accept any signal higher than full HD)....

so is 3840 x 2160 the official 4K resolution ??

i am wondering how is possible the Home entertainment product will be launched in the market without having 4K content such as Blu Ray etc...
do you think that blu ray will update to 4K specs very soon ?

g

3840 x 2160 is what most of these panels are going to support.

The HDMI 1.4 specification supports multiple 4K formats:

3840 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz | 25Hz | 30Hz
4096 pixels wide by 2160 pixels high @ 24Hz

[Sergio Perez]

Yes - APPLE is the wild card rumor - I have had a couple sources tell me that APPLE will releases a Smart TV is 55" OLED 4K in the fall of 2012. Hard to know with APPLE - their cards are so close to their chest - but - I have heard chatter from some folks who are pretty connected - rumors have been wrong before - but that would be amazing IMO. That said ... I'm still waiting for my F#@KING NEW MACPRO :)

Unfortunately i don't think this will happen. The problem is that a 4K resolution display will make anything that isn't 4K, well, look worse. This is what happens with sd broadcast shown in High resolution displays, for example. I think that Apple will not champion this . (However, I will be more than glad to eat my words if proven wrong!)

The other aspect to take into account is distribution. Blu-ray (and the internet) are the closest we have of true mass market Full HD distribution. In films (worldwide, not only in the US market), Blu ray is just now establishing itself as DVD's successor. A 4K format would take years to penetrate the market (probably 8 to get to current blu-ray status). As much as I am looking forward for 4K, we are still many years until this becomes a reality in a "mainstream" way. We may eventually get there, but, my pessimistic prediction is that we are still 10 years or more away from mass penetration. HOWEVER, I have already sent my money for the Epic. As pessimistic as I am, I think we will eventually get there. Every single shot you take now in 4K will be worth its value in gold in the future. In documentary work, for example, 4K footage can prove to be a constant revenue source. But Red cameras are not only about 4K, but about RAW versatility and frame rates. These features alone are more than enough to establish their value amongst the competition!

[Gabriele Turchi]

any hint of 4K bluray ?.... or we all have to wait Red Ray ? :)


g

[Mark L. Pederson]

i am wondering how is possible the Home entertainment product will be launched in the market without having 4K content such as Blu Ray etc...
do you think that blu ray will update to 4K specs very soon ?

g

Sony reps claim the company is in talks with the Blu-ray Disc Association to iron out a standard compression scheme for squeezing 4K movies onto discs, and has already promised a 4K release of the next Spider-Man movie, but the July 2012 release date for that flick should be telling.

So yeah ... looks like BLU-RAY will have a 4K option as well. I'll put my chips on REDRAY :)

[Mark L. Pederson]

As much as I am looking forward for 4K, we are still many years until this becomes a reality in a "mainstream" way. We may eventually get there, but, my pessimistic prediction is that we are still 10 years or more away from mass penetration.

Try 2.5 years. That is all it will take. You can't look at the past for "rate of change and adoption of technology". Everything moves faster going forward.

[Sergio Perez]

Maybe so, Mark, but were I live, for example, the local broadcast has only now been updated to DIgital 16:9 SD. Its ridiculous, but in my neighbor HK they preserve the SD with their HD broadcast in parallel because many households still have SD sets. The online aspect of it all is interesting, but 720p is currently still the standard. I have a video going online with more than 30 000 views, and according to my vimeo plus account, the majority of plays were in SD.

I think that in the US you guys may be closer to 4K, but the rest of the world is still playing catch up to the HD revolution... (excluding Japan, obviously.)

However, if Apple surprises everyone with 4K, this could really change. Everyone in the mobile world is copying their moves. If they go 4K, everyone else will follow. But for that to happen, iTunes needed to have a 4K library ready for distribution. That's Apple's sales model and their big revenue channel. We all know why we aren't seeing blu-ray drives on Macs...

[Gabriele Turchi]

it will probably take a bit ,
but as a start i would be just happy with a nice 4K 58" plasma from panasonic that cost under 10K and a deckling 4K SDI card ...so at least i can grade and enjoy 4K...

not quite sure what is happening with the deckling 4K ( i believe they are not introducing that card until they figure that Resolve can grade 4K (on 4k project timeline) realtime having 4K SDI out ....


g

[Mark L. Pederson]

Maybe so, Mark, but were I live, for example, the local broadcast has only now been updated to DIgital 16:9 SD. Its ridiculous, but in my neighbor HK they preserve the SD with their HD broadcast in parallel because many households still have SD sets. The online aspect of it all is interesting, but 720p is currently still the standard. I have a video going online with more than 30 000 views, and according to my vimeo plus account, the majority of plays were in SD.

I suspect that "majority of plays were in SD" might have to do with most folks watching your video on a mobile device. That said, I do understand that internet bandwidth is not great everywhere in the world - but - plenty of companies racing to provide that. Your internet will get faster. Period. Most likely - it will outpace your "local broadcaster".

4K VOD delivery over the internet (download) is where I would place my initial bet.

I'm pretty sure I will be able to download an entire 4K REDRAY feature film faster than I can get to Best Buy and pick up a Blu Ray and get back home.

[Bruce Allen]

Yes, I think Apple is just going to double all of its monitor resolutions :) HiDPI mode, man. Been waiting for that since forever. And there's that Apple TV... 4K sounds right to me, with speech recognition. The question is whether it'll be 3D or not - Apple traditionally has not been pro-3D, but then there is the whole Pixar thing.

My skeptical theory for the TV manufacturers is:
1. sell everyone HD
2. sell everyone HD 3D
3. sell everyone 4K
4. sell everyone 4K 3D 48fps
5. sell everyone 8K display that also does 4K 3D auto-stereoscopic

A RED laser projector at least allows you to skip forward multiple steps!

BTW, I wonder if we'll move to a better color standard than 709 along with our move to 4K? And higher nits of screen brightness standard? Although then just all the commercials will use that and everyone will dial it back... so your movie will look too dark again :)

BTW if everything is being distributed digitally, there's no reason the content can't support wide-gamut color space as well as have a 709 fallback. Heck, you could even just send a 709 feed, with a few bits of wide gamut auxiliary data per pixel.

NHK's 8K / SHV standard has a lovely looking color gamut... pretty much Mitsubishi LaserVue gamut - and would be great for a RED projector.

http://www.boacinema.com/projects/2011/for_forum_posts/1-1-1-z1.gif

Anyway, yay.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Tom Lowe]

"2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K"

I agree. watch for some 4K love at NAB this year!!

[Mark L. Pederson]

"2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K"

I agree. watch for some 4K love at NAB this year!!

Watch for the 4K love at CES next month.

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/ces-2012-what-to-expect-1042619

[Tom Lowe]

That's true. I might actually be out there for a couple of days.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unfortunately i don't think this will happen. The problem is that a 4K resolution display will make anything that isn't 4K, well, look worse. This is what happens with sd broadcast shown in High resolution displays, for example. I think that Apple will not champion this . (However, I will be more than glad to eat my words if proven wrong!)

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is. HD on 4K (or quad-HD) displays looks just like HD, you can't see the difference. Good upscaling algorithms can bring some benefits, just as we see up-scaled DVD out of Blu-Ray players looking pretty good, in many cases giving Blu-Ray titles a run for their money. The big issue we have here is that many HD sources and Blu-Ray releases are just not of very good quality. There are many factors, some of the biggest being over-compression and poor compression algorithms, clipped and compressed color spaces, that sort of thing. Apple is that wildcard rumor. And I actually do expect them to go 4K with their TVs when they launch. I don't think Apple will be launching their TV product in 2012. I bet it happens in 2013. What I do expect to see first is updated Macbook Pro and Macbook Air systems with "retina" or double-density displays. New iPad with the same. Next they will move on an updated iMac with double density screen and I also expect the new iMac to have many of the rumored TV features to be incorporated. Also expecting a 25" (yes, 25 inch) cinema display with actual 4K, 4096 pixels wide, resolution. ...I have my reasons/sources.



any hint of 4K bluray ?.... or we all have to wait Red Ray ? :)

Blu-Ray consortium is hammering out the Blu-4K spec right now. RED *NEEDS* to launch RED-RAY (or RED4K, or whatever it will ultimately be called) this coming year.


Oh, and Toshiba is first to market with consumer 4K displays. They're officially launching them friday (less than 48 hours away) in Japan. Should hit state-side in about 5 months. The 55" no-glasses 3D model is their flagship display, but they also have a 55" 4K without the no-glasses 3D (I don't know if it does 3D at all) for 650,000 yen, or about $8200 USD. 4K is here.

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though. They should also be showing preliminary 4K Blu-Ray content.

[Tom Lowe]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

I have not seen the Toshiba one that tracks faces and tries to align viewing zones accordingly.... So can't comment.

I have seen other no-glasses solutions and so far I have not been impressed by any of them. You have to keep your head and line of sight in alignment with one of the parallax barriers in the display. So if you tilt your head more than about 15 degrees, you lose the 3D and see blur or generally fucked up images. If there's a bunch of people trying to watch or if you're too far away from the display, you can't see the effect or can't even see a proper image. Right now, the no-glasses displays feel more gimmicky than wearing glasses.

no-glasses 3D is awesome on some handheld devices though, at least in moderation, it gets a bit hard on the eyes.

[Zac Dixon]

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though.

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

[Bruce Allen]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

Yes it is 4K capable. But graphics card is not fast enough for heavy gaming at that resolution.

Sony probably has the Playstation 4 targeted at doing full-res 4K at high framerates, as well as 1080p stereo at high framerates.

Or maybe they will go all out and do 4K stereo at high framerates?

My guess is that there will be some kind of HDMI 1.5 standard to tie everything together? 4K at maximum of 24p just doesn't seem like something that the large Japanese companies will like - they love 60p... 4K/60fps at least would be their goal, I imagine (along with 1080p/60fps stereo). And 4K/60fps stereo if they can manage it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[L. Langer]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

It uses HDMI 1.3 which does not support 4K video but Sony is releasing a PS3 system update to allow 4K-ish photos just as they did to enable 3D. That is what they are demonstrating at CES using their 4K display products. If Sony were to launch a 4K video capable Playstation, it would be the PS4. Naturally, it won't play games at the resolution, but it could certainly play back video.

[Brian Merlen]

Plus computers can do 4k too when Ivy Bridge drops! 2012 is quite exciting! Almost all our current monitors, computers, and accessories are doorstops now! Gotta love how fast the tech changes!

[Hrvoje Simic]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

Right now no-glasses tech is ridiculous. I've seen a bunch of those, (but not the head tracking model also), either on TV sets or on mobile devices and although it has been improved over the years, it's still a joke.

It works with displaying depth but the price is too high...with resolution loss, and having to keep mostly still + perfect distance(s) to maintain the 3D effect, with optimal barrier-to-eye angle. One cannot relax because 3D effect brakes up unless perfectly aligned and eyes have to compensate even the minimal oscillations. The principle itself is flawed.

At this point, "multiple-viewer-adaptive ultra-high-resolution barrier with flawless real-time head tracking" sounds beyond wishful thinking. With that in mind, avoiding to put glasses on seems just lazy, and I'd say glasses solutions will get much better than glasses-free ones. At least in near future.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

I don't have details, but it looks like it will be a minor update to at least push some content to show it's possible. And there's a good chance that it may be hardware/software/firmware that won't actually be released to consumers, just a demo showing that they can make it happen. They like to do that, you know... As L. Langer mentions, it won't play games at that resolution, just video or show images. If there are any games being output to a 4K display, they would just be up-scaling for now, or running off PC hardware. I fully expect the PS4 (or whatever next-generation console they will come out with in the next year or so) to have 4K output ability.

[Iannis Holwech]

If you are close to Galveston, Texas January 9-10, 2012, you can attend the 2nd Annual Moody Digital Cinema Symposium with D3D Cinema and Barco to Present Giant Screen (IMAX screen) 4K 3D Laser Projection Demo. (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/d3d-cinema-to-present-giant-screen-4k-3d-laser-projection-demo-at-2nd-annual-moody-digital-cinema-symposium-2011-09-20)




UNCHARTED TERRITORY
The FIRST demonstration of Barco’s revolutionary laser light engine on a giant screen
The FIRST demonstration of true DLP 4K resolution 3D on a giant screen
The FIRST 3D comparison of ‘ultra-reality’ 48 frame/sec & 60 frame/sec content on a giant screen
The FIRST 4K vs. 15/70 shootout at full 4:3 giant screen aspect ratio

WHO: ALL STAKEHOLDERS IN DIGITAL CINEMA PRODUCTION & EXHIBITION
WHAT: THE 2ND ANNUAL MOODY GARDENS DIGITAL CINEMA SYMPOSIUM
WHEN: MONDAY & TUESDAY, JANUARY 9-10 (8:00am-6:00pm)
WHERE: MOODY GARDENS, GALVESTON, TX
WHY: THE FUTURE IS NOW


Register Now: Moody Gardens Digital Cinema Symposium 2012 (http://www.d3dcinema.com/news/article.asp?a=252&s=491&s2=504&p=504)

It would be nice with a future where 4K TV's where up to 70-80" and from 90" they where 8K.
That would of course make larger projection screens lacking in the resolution/ppi department.

A 50" HD TV is just 44ppi.
iPhone 4 = 326 ppi.
Toshiba tablet 6.1" = 498ppi. (not yet released)
Galaxy Note 5.3" = 285ppi.
50" 4K TV is 88 ppi.
50" 8K TV is 185 ppi.

As soon as (other than JVC, they have made a 8K projector) Sony and Texas Instruments makes 8K projection chips, the movie industry will jump past 4K.

SMPTE should have the new UHDTV1= 4K and UHDTV2= 8K Broadcast standard ready soon.

NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corp.) have been testing and talking 4K TV for many years. Now they are only talking about 8K Broadcast.
They have also developed a A Camera System Using Three (http://journal.smpte.org/content/120/8/24.abstract) :confused: 33-megapixel CMOS Image Sensors for UHDTV2; [7680 x 4320/59.94 p, (RGB) 4:4:4]. (SMPTE Members can find the whole text in pdf via the link).

If the AMOLED InkJet printing technology problems are solved according to press release from DuPont, we could see Large high PPI OLED screens in a couple of years.
Huge InkJet printed OLED screens could make projectors obsolete in the future.

Only a matter of price, and that the manufacturers will step up the game and not milk the market with AMOLED HD screens first.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qQNz2rz-yxM

[Hrvoje Simic]

~ 300 PPI > handheld
~ 220 PPI > notebooks
~ 160 PPI > desktops
~ 80 PPI > TV

I'd say...

[Sergio Perez]

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is. HD on 4K (or quad-HD) displays looks just like HD, you can't see the difference. Good upscaling algorithms can bring some benefits, just as we see up-scaled DVD out of Blu-Ray players looking pretty good, in many cases giving Blu-Ray titles a run for their money. The big issue we have here is that many HD sources and Blu-Ray releases are just not of very good quality. There are many factors, some of the biggest being over-compression and poor compression algorithms, clipped and compressed color spaces, that sort of thing. Apple is that wildcard rumor. And I actually do expect them to go 4K with their TVs when they launch. I don't think Apple will be launching their TV product in 2012. I bet it happens in 2013. What I do expect to see first is updated Macbook Pro and Macbook Air systems with "retina" or double-density displays. New iPad with the same. Next they will move on an updated iMac with double density screen and I also expect the new iMac to have many of the rumored TV features to be incorporated. Also expecting a 25" (yes, 25 inch) cinema display with actual 4K, 4096 pixels wide, resolution. ...I have my reasons/sources.




Blu-Ray consortium is hammering out the Blu-4K spec right now. RED *NEEDS* to launch RED-RAY (or RED4K, or whatever it will ultimately be called) this coming year.


Oh, and Toshiba is first to market with consumer 4K displays. They're officially launching them friday (less than 48 hours away) in Japan. Should hit state-side in about 5 months. The 55" no-glasses 3D model is their flagship display, but they also have a 55" 4K without the no-glasses 3D (I don't know if it does 3D at all) for 650,000 yen, or about $8200 USD. 4K is here.

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though. They should also be showing preliminary 4K Blu-Ray content.

Jeff, you really do know your tech and computer technology :) I trust your evaluation on this.
Have followed the evolution of videogames for the past 2 decades and have to say that the Playstation card is also a very important one. What PS2 did for DVD cannot be neglected, for example. The PS3, while having a slow start, is probably one of the main factors of the penetration of Blu-ray in consumer households.

I can see the PS4 getting 4K output cababilities, including 3D. Having also seen no-glasses 3D sets working I have to say they really are not that impressive right now. Have been to a couple of shows showcasing the technology and its just too limiting in terms of viewing angle. A good example for those wanting to see this in action is to see a nintendo 3DS. This "sort of" works because you as the user of the 3DS are constantly adjusting with your hands the screen in order to get the perfect 3D angle. Not so if you are in your living room.

Jeff, I have to disagree with you in one point, though. Watching SD Broadcast in an SD trinitron is much better than watching said broadcast in an HD LCD. Of course, watching the HD Broadcast in the HD LCD smokes the SD broadcast in the SD trinitron. I alos have a 50" Plasma that is only 720P and does wonders to the artifacts of HD broadcast, which can look bad in a 50" full HD recent model. The problem is not the sets, but the poor quality of the broadcasts. The audience doesn't know about the technicalities of this and just chooses what they feel looks best and worse. In order for 4K to trully penetrate the mass market, the audience needs to see a full, discernible difference with what they have now. Videogames are great for this because they introduce technology to a target audience that is much more open to innovation.

[Ryan De Franco]

Having seen digital projection of a film shot digitally a few days ago... God, was I happy it was shot and projected in 1080.

Intensity looks great in 4K. I've seen 4K projectors at their best--action films, sci-fi films, anything that calls for high detail deserves detail.

But human faces? Drama, comedy, hell anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that. Even at perfect 1080 there's often too many pores.

Today, a colorist at a major NY post house told me how many directors and clients diffuse their 4K scans because they see too much. On a commercial a few months ago, Steven Spielberg's gaffer Dave Devlin (who shot the first Epic short, Tattoo) suggested we thumbprint the back of the lens in order to cut the resolution down from 5K. Full BPM, CS filters were not enough.

This is not to say 4K has a place. It absolutely does. But we have to be careful how we use this technology--I'm making extreme points here because the consumer audience will be incredibly turned off if all of a sudden they see too much human detail they never wanted to see. Take a point from the master cinematographers, filter your close-ups, keep your wide shots as 4K sharp as you want :)

[Joseph Ward]

2012 the year of 4k till December 21, lol.
2020 the year of 8k UHDTV
2030 the year of the Hologram, yes please!

Red makes Redray the new broadcast standard!

[Dominik Novotny]

I would love to have a 4 or 8k screen in my living room and watch the news in 3D ultra high quality. At the moment I am happy with my 55 Panasonic plasma watching TV in 720p. I am happy with my Epson EH-TW 5500 watching a Blue Ray Disc at FullHD resolution at the moment. I can´t wait for Red ray and the Red projector.

BUT!

I think, we as technical fetishists will have all new technical gadgets as soon as possible, but the normal consumer? In Germany only one out of ten discs sold is a blueray. In 2014 blueray is estimated to gain 50% of the market here. Yes, the internet is the way to distribute high quality content in future. But will broadcast stations spend again millions of Euros to switch their equipment from HD to 4k in this decade? They don´t even distribute 1080p in Germany.

4k - 2012 will be the year for us, 2025 for the consumer.

[Thomas Pohl]

We already recognized a growing demand on 4k footage. So I would agree with the headline. Let`s see what happens.

Thomas.

[Dominik Novotny]

I hope you are right, Thomas. BTW, I like your small Redcine workshop.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, I have to disagree with you in one point, though. Watching SD Broadcast in an SD trinitron is much better than watching said broadcast in an HD LCD. Of course, watching the HD Broadcast in the HD LCD smokes the SD broadcast in the SD trinitron. I alos have a 50" Plasma that is only 720P and does wonders to the artifacts of HD broadcast, which can look bad in a 50" full HD recent model. The problem is not the sets, but the poor quality of the broadcasts. The audience doesn't know about the technicalities of this and just chooses what they feel looks best and worse. In order for 4K to trully penetrate the mass market, the audience needs to see a full, discernible difference with what they have now. Videogames are great for this because they introduce technology to a target audience that is much more open to innovation.

CRT and plasma have a unique look to them that does indeed seem to "enance" low resolution imagery or images that have a lot of anomalous artifacts and compression issues. Combine that with how most HDTVs treat SD signals -- very poorly, by design, and yes, it's easy to see why people didn't (and still don't) like to watch SD sources on an HD LCD.


But human faces? Drama, comedy, hell anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that. Even at perfect 1080 there's often too many pores.

I have to disagree somewhat. Take still photography, print advertising, etc.. as an example. Personally I think much of the processing done there is too much, but that's the thing to do these days. And no reason why it could not be applied to motion. With 4K and higher resolution, you have a creative tool at your disposal. All in how you choose to use it. Some people want to cover it up.

" anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that."

hire better looking women. Seriously though, I'm not sure I (or many of us out there) follow the same logic. In many ways, saying this is like saying your female subject is not attractive unless she is shot on camera at a resolution low enough to hide any skin features. I often wonder, do these DoP's / cinematographers thumbprint or wipe petroleum jelly on their eyeglasses when they're going to be around a group of women and talking to them face to face?

4K, even 8K, are still lower resolution than real life... It just gives us more freedom to manipulate pixels and create the desired images. I guess you could say that I'm not much of an old-school film guy. I try to NOT do any diffusion or image alteration at the camera level. While sometimes it makes sense because you know you need to in order to get the desired results, most of the time it's best to save it for post where you're not locked into such a choice made earlier.

[Subhadip Sen]

I often wonder, do these DoP's / cinematographers thumbprint or wipe petroleum jelly on their eyeglasses when they're going to be around a group of women and talking to them face to face?

Haha! Seriously though, most cinema - especially Hollywood - is so far removed from reality it doesn't really matter. That makes sense, but I would certainly love to see a few more realist films and capturing humans like they really look would be a good start. There are some incredible close-up shots in Nuri Bilge Ceylan's latest films shot on HD - I can imagine they would be even more involving at 4K. I may be crazy, but watching human faces like people I might run into is far more interesting to me than seeing artificially softened and excessively made up supermodels.

[Stuart English]

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month.

Commentary suggests that will deliver 4K resolution stills (i.e. from early reports on Sony 4K home cinema theatre)

[Larry Kelly]

With the renewal of this type of discussion, I can just imagine how hard it is for Jim to stay quiet on this thread right now considering what they are likely to have behind the curtain for Nab announcements. I can also imagine Jarred helping him breath but staying firm on keeping quiet.

Larry

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Haha! Seriously though, most cinema - especially Hollywood - is so far removed from reality it doesn't really matter. That makes sense, but I would certainly love to see a few more realist films and capturing humans like they really look would be a good start. There are some incredible close-up shots in Nuri Bilge Ceylan's latest films shot on HD - I can imagine they would be even more involving at 4K. I may be crazy, but watching human faces like people I might run into is far more interesting to me than seeing artificially softened and excessively made up supermodels.

Totally agree!

[James Sielaff]

If one considers that HD was invented when Reagan was in office(US presidency), and introduced to the US after 2000, and even in 2011 is still not ubiquitous, then it is quite sane to say the transition to 4k can be faster and smoother.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Commentary suggests that will deliver 4K resolution stills (i.e. from early reports on Sony 4K home cinema theatre)

Yup - that's the PS3. But the question is - will PS4 be teased at CES. It's known that the Playstation 4 has been in development for some time now and it has been said that developers already have access to the SDK tools used to create new titles.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yup - that's the PS3. But the question is - will PS4 be teased at CES. It's known that the Playstation 4 has been in development for some time now and it has been said that developers already have access to the SDK tools used to create new titles.

Could be. If PS4 doesn't rear it's head in 2012, it will for sure in 2013...

I'm out of the gamedev loop these days. Last console project I worked on was for PS2, so no one tells me much. haha. I've just been told that they will be showing 4K out of a PS3 and I've been told that by more than one source. But it seems like that may not be news, given some of the commentary I'm reading.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I have to disagree somewhat. Take still photography, print advertising, etc.. as an example. Personally I think much of the processing done there is too much, but that's the thing to do these days. And no reason why it could not be applied to motion.With 4K and higher resolution, you have a creative tool at your disposal. All in how you choose to use it. Some people want to cover it up.

I agree about too much processing, but there are few issues...

a) What can be done to a still image is much harder to do to a sequence of images.
b) Motion adds another dimension and in many cases rules change. Perceptive rules.
c) Photographic "beauty", pleasing image and cinematic "beauty" or a pleasing sequence in many cases cannot switch places.

One example for c) - faces, bodies, gestures, poses...all range in appealing effect, throughout camera angles and parts of the motion sequence.
Another example - in many cases motion adds "beauty" to a person which would look unappealing in a still image, just because it reveals that one special appealing thing about that person. It works in a negative way as well, as a person in one frame can look beautiful and few frames later completely the opposite. In that case, extra detail in the image can be a limitation.
Another example - a lot of supermodels do not look as good with their head moved two inches to the side, as they do on few selected stills...or if they have to say a couple of sentences and their facial appearance varies throughout the line of text.
There are many more examples...






" anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that."

hire better looking women. Seriously though, I'm not sure I (or many of us out there) follow the same logic. In many ways, saying this is like saying your female subject is not attractive unless she is shot on camera at a resolution low enough to hide any skin features. I often wonder, do these DoP's / cinematographers thumbprint or wipe petroleum jelly on their eyeglasses when they're going to be around a group of women and talking to them face to face?



It is not just a subjective cinematographer's aesthetic thing as it may seem.
It's a viewer's perception thing as well.

If a storyteller wants to show one thing, one part of the image, but the viewer's eyes wander somewhere else due to the additional detail in the frame, attracting eyes to see and explore (not solvable by DOF control, lighting or simple post work), viewer may be missing the storytelling element of the shot.

In which case "more" can lead to "less".



4K, even 8K, are still lower resolution than real life...


Yes, but in real life you don't see a human face 30 feet high.
And a smile has a different effect with insight about the teeth structure. :)

Obviously, upping the rez brings significant benefits, but I'd say generalizing (if that would be the case) that UHD must be perfect for all purposes...may leave a lot of people unpleasantly surprised...unless a lot is left on post folks' shoulders, that is.

[Emanuel A.]

2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K.

4K Projectors for the home from more than one manufacturer - 4K TVs from 6 manufacturers that I am aware of. (5 confirmed - 6th is an exciting wild card rumor)

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/T8A4B6T8

You can talk all you want about the slow and poor transition to HD - and you can sit there shooting 1080p content and claim that it will be many, many years before we are watching TV shows in 4K - but .... you'd be DEAD WRONG.

Things are VERY different now. TV is the internet. HBO GO has better compression in HD than some carriers. APPLE's VOD numbers for indie films are insane (in a good way). There's COMPETITION to deliver content - Google, Amazon, Apple, Hulu (with more than twice as much as the combined total of video streamed from the websites of ABC, CBS, the CW, Fox and NBC) - so .... delivery platforms will need to differentiate themselves with QUALITY. I'm aware of one early start-up company already working to be the first all 4K broadcast channel.

2012 the 4K dominos will fall.

1080 is the next Black and White. (and yes - you can still make a good movie in black and white ala "The Artist" - but harder when it comes to financing and selling the content)Good post. Buying a professional 1080p camera when you get an hacked_GH2* out there, it doesn't make any real sense, at least to me.


* http://vimeo.com/33025136

[Emanuel A.]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.I have not seen the Toshiba one that tracks faces and tries to align viewing zones accordingly.... So can't comment.

I have seen other no-glasses solutions and so far I have not been impressed by any of them. You have to keep your head and line of sight in alignment with one of the parallax barriers in the display. So if you tilt your head more than about 15 degrees, you lose the 3D and see blur or generally fucked up images. If there's a bunch of people trying to watch or if you're too far away from the display, you can't see the effect or can't even see a proper image. Right now, the no-glasses displays feel more gimmicky than wearing glasses.

no-glasses 3D is awesome on some handheld devices though, at least in moderation, it gets a bit hard on the eyes.It is not only this the hassle. Toshiba included. You have the feeling of a low definition display device plus that unbearable interlaced-like look(s). Too bad to be true ;-)

[Stuart English]

In Germany only one out of ten discs sold is a blueray. In 2014 blueray is estimated to gain 50% of the market here. Yes, the internet is the way to distribute high quality content in future. But will broadcast stations spend again millions of Euros to switch their equipment from HD to 4k in this decade? They don´t even distribute 1080p in Germany.


If I were running a commercial broadcast station I'd have a very long think about my future business model.

I need an audience. What kind of an audience, and hence programming, are traditional questions to consider.

Most important, how do I obtain revenue - is that from commercials, or subscriptions, or data transmission?


Though wholesale re-tooling of the broadcast infrastructure to support 4K resolution broadcasts seems unlikely ....

...a digital (hence data) pipe is a very valuable asset to have, and these guys are also pretty darn smart.

[Brian Merlen]

Yea realistically it will take a while for broadcasters to get on the 4k gravy train, but the internet is already on it if you include 4k youtube videos.... I can't actually play them on my computer, I don't know if its my GPU or my internet connection, but I am sure it'll get worked out soon when I upgrade NLE computers and eventually pay for optimum boost on my cable connection

[Stuart English]

Yea realistically it will take a while for broadcasters to get on the 4k gravy train, but the internet is already on it if you include 4k youtube videos.... I can't actually play them on my computer, I don't know if its my GPU or my internet connection, but I am sure it'll get worked out soon when I upgrade NLE computers and eventually pay for optimum boost on my cable connection

Being realistic it's probably best not to include 4K YouTube as an example for some of these very reasons.

A 4K delivery either works or it doesn't. Once we get past that, then the question of image quality is key.


RED RAY will deliver on both counts...

[Stefan Antonescu]

Good post. Buying a professional 1080p camera when you get an hacked_GH2* out there, it doesn't make any real sense, at least to me.


* http://vimeo.com/33025136
Thanks for the link, Emmanuel.

Very inspiring... !

[Brian Merlen]

Being realistic it's probably best not to include 4K YouTube as an example for some of these very reasons.

A 4K delivery either works or it doesn't. Once we get past that, then the question of image quality is key.


RED RAY will deliver on both counts...

yea i am very excited to see it! i have a feeling 4k content distribution is about to get really mainstream between red ray and ivy bridge gpu's being capable of playing 4k. its great how quick adoption will take place, compared to the sd to hd transition

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K.



you think so Mark? nah I don't agree.. look 4K delivery over a network requires a majority of homes to have Fibre to the Home (not to the cabinet, actually into the home..) That process is not going to be complete on a mass scale until 2020. It is just too expensive. We are three years into what looks like being a long recession, and there is money around for network deployment there is not enough to roll out FTTH to most everyone before the later half of this decade. Also the networks are more concerned with delivering lower bandwidths everywhere the user goes (LTE for example).

Secondly you have to consider the truly vast backhaul requirements to shift 4K to millions of end users simultaneously. I'm currently sitting on an FTTC connection in Asia. Now if I want to watch a YouTube video or an apple trailer there no way I would choose full HD delivery because the network still can't deliver in real time.

Thirdly I know that a 4K laser or whatever projector will blow my mind, I don't doubt it. But most people don't have a huge room to watch a screen big enough to justify 4K. 1080p on my plasma is just fine, honestly. So if the gear was cheap enough and the network/delivery system actually could handle it I'd go for 4K in 2012 but that isn't going to happen IMO, not so soon.

[Ivan Kovax]

I am wondering what Red's marketing strategy will be up against BluRay 4K?

We all know how the HDDVD/ BluRay battle ended, as the VHS/beta wars before that. It is not always the best technology that wins out, but the best marketing strategy.

Clearly, at this point there are two factors to take into account - BluRay is an established consumer brand, and people will be more comfortable with that, even if it means buying new gear.

However, the industry production standard is currently Red (to a degree I guess). Red4K/RedRay will be perfectly integrated into the current Red workflow and if some Hollywood big-wigs get behind it because the Finchers, Jacksons, Soderberghs and Scotts of the industry are embracing it then we could have an interesting 2 front battle on our hands :)

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Can BluRay handle 4K?

[Ivan Kovax]

Can BluRay handle 4K?

Yes and no... have a read of the rest of the thread and all will be clear :)

[Caden Nash]

Can BluRay handle 4K?

no.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I suspect even if it could it would really be new technology requiring new players and so on, it's not like you are suddenly going to be able t buy a 4K bluray disk and play it on your existing player..

I think that first the big movies will be delivered and in some cases projected in 4K (like early IMAX, so in a few major cities you'll have a some 4K cinemas). Then with an eye on future revenues, distributors will start asking for all movies to be delivered 4K (even if they are mostly not going to be distributed in that resolution). Then a few major TV series will be delivered 4K, but still not broadcast that way (at least not to a mass audience). Then there will be a 4K home delivery solution; like BluRay enabled true 1080p for the home. Then gradually over several years, more and more cinemas, home cinema systems and broadcasters will switch to 4K. It'll be 2020 before we're mostly all watching 4K, and even then loads of media will still be 1080p or less.

[M Most]

Then a few major TV series will be delivered 4K, but still not broadcast that way (at least not to a mass audience).

I seriously doubt that. Archived, perhaps, for shows shot on either Red or F65 (although personally I doubt that anyone is really going to record in 4K for a television production on the F65, I believe the vast majority will use it in HD mode and record directly to SR Master format). Delivered? No. Not without a broadcast format in place. Television productions are paid for by primarily by broadcast entities, the US television networks (including cable networks) and foreign broadcasters as well. The standard in place for those entities is HD and will remain so for a long time. Without both a compelling reason and a financial plan in place, there is little reason to do anything higher than that for current deliveries, especially considering that a lot of television programs have a somewhat serious amount of visual effects content.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Warner Bros. has been doing 4K archives (4K DPX files on LTO or LTO5) of Red-shot shows for a few years now, but that's as far as it goes.

[Stuart English]

I suspect even if it could it would really be new technology requiring new players and so on, it's not like you are suddenly going to be able t buy a 4K bluray disk and play it on your existing player..

I think that first the big movies will be delivered and in some cases projected in 4K (like early IMAX, so in a few major cities you'll have a some 4K cinemas). Then with an eye on future revenues, distributors will start asking for all movies to be delivered 4K (even if they are mostly not going to be distributed in that resolution). Then a few major TV series will be delivered 4K, but still not broadcast that way (at least not to a mass audience). Then there will be a 4K home delivery solution; like BluRay enabled true 1080p for the home. Then gradually over several years, more and more cinemas, home cinema systems and broadcasters will switch to 4K. It'll be 2020 before we're mostly all watching 4K, and even then loads of media will still be 1080p or less.

re 4K Player hardware - unless someone has a very well concealed trick up their sleeve - most probably true

I accept your point that 720p / 1080i / 1080p will be distributed for years to come, and hence we may never reach the "mostly all watching 4K" status, however IMHO the 4K business does not need to achieve that in order to be very viable for producers, advertisers and professional and consumer equipment manufacturers.

[Wayne Morellini]

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is. HD on 4K (or quad-HD) displays looks just like HD, you can't see the difference. Good upscaling algorithms can bring some benefits, just as we see up-scaled DVD out of Blu-Ray players looking pretty good, in many cases giving Blu-Ray titles a run for their money. The big issue we have here is that many HD sources and Blu-Ray releases are just not of very good quality. There are many factors, some of the biggest being over-compression and poor compression algorithms, clipped and compressed color spaces, that sort of thing. Apple is that wildcard rumor. And I actually do expect them to go 4K with their TVs when they launch. I don't think Apple will be launching their TV product in 2012. I bet it happens in 2013. What I do expect to see first is updated Macbook Pro and Macbook Air systems with "retina" or double-density displays. New iPad with the same. Next they will move on an updated iMac with double density screen and I also expect the new iMac to have many of the rumored TV features to be incorporated. Also expecting a 25" (yes, 25 inch) cinema display with actual 4K, 4096 pixels wide, resolution. ...I have my reasons/sources.




Blu-Ray consortium is hammering out the Blu-4K spec right now. RED *NEEDS* to launch RED-RAY (or RED4K, or whatever it will ultimately be called) this coming year.


Oh, and Toshiba is first to market with consumer 4K displays. They're officially launching them friday (less than 48 hours away) in Japan. Should hit state-side in about 5 months. The 55" no-glasses 3D model is their flagship display, but they also have a 55" 4K without the no-glasses 3D (I don't know if it does 3D at all) for 650,000 yen, or about $8200 USD. 4K is here.

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though. They should also be showing preliminary 4K Blu-Ray content.

But what is 4k, what people are calling 4k is actually shd and less than 4k. It is time that we had a common standard between TV and cinema, 4k 2:1 would be an adequate base, or 3840 * 1920 2:1. 4k is largerly irrelevant to anybody with a brain, shd can substitute as a base standard (meaning adopting resolution width but adding vertical resolution for different frame formats).


Yes, I think Apple is just going to double all of its monitor resolutions :) HiDPI mode, man. Been waiting for that since forever. And there's that Apple TV... 4K sounds right to me, with speech recognition. The question is whether it'll be 3D or not - Apple traditionally has not been pro-3D, but then there is the whole Pixar thing.

My skeptical theory for the TV manufacturers is:
1. sell everyone HD
2. sell everyone HD 3D
3. sell everyone 4K
4. sell everyone 4K 3D 48fps
5. sell everyone 8K display that also does 4K 3D auto-stereoscopic

A RED laser projector at least allows you to skip forward multiple steps!

BTW, I wonder if we'll move to a better color standard than 709 along with our move to 4K? And higher nits of screen brightness standard? Although then just all the commercials will use that and everyone will dial it back... so your movie will look too dark again :)

BTW if everything is being distributed digitally, there's no reason the content can't support wide-gamut color space as well as have a 709 fallback. Heck, you could even just send a 709 feed, with a few bits of wide gamut auxiliary data per pixel.

NHK's 8K / SHV standard has a lovely looking color gamut... pretty much Mitsubishi LaserVue gamut - and would be great for a RED projector.

http://www.boacinema.com/projects/2011/for_forum_posts/1-1-1-z1.gif

Anyway, yay.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

They need to just go for it, and introduce a full coverage color standard, you see how much is not covered in that graph. They can then adopt sub versions and through high bit depth easily swap between them depending on screen technology. So starting with the something inbetween the current and the shv as the base, something near shv as the intermediary and the full coverage as the final for the full visual spectrum.

[Patrick S. Marshall]

Blu ray is just now establishing itself as DVD's successor. A 4K format would take years to penetrate the market (probably 8 to get to current blu-ray status).
The problem lies within the medium used. People still think in tapes, disks and such. Completely obsolete. A small cartridge in SD or microSD form factor with 64GB+ shouldn't be much of a problem today and soon these numbers will be exceeded by a lot more. This way it could be used on all sorts of devices, including mobiles and we would make the evolutionary necessary step away from moving-parts media and we could very easily go 4k and beyond. If I'd be a movie distributor, I'd go solid sate cards now. BluRay sucks anyway. Never liked it, never will and I am glad if it dies out.

[M Most]

The problem lies within the medium used. People still think in tapes, disks and such. Completely obsolete.

I get your point, but BluRay and even DVD's are still selling to the tune of tens of millions of units per year. That's hardly "obsolete." I understand cynicism - I'm as cynical as anyone here - but the reality is that simply declaring something "obsolete" doesn't make it so, regardless of what you believe about the future. Besides, I really don't think the future lies in smaller media. It lies in no media, as in streaming and cloud based distribution, because that is by far the most cost effective way to distribute digital information, and it's "convenient enough" that most consumers will be able to access it. And if you think that mobile devices will require hard goods of any sort, you haven't looked at your phone lately. Or, within 2 years or so, your car.

[Neil W. Smith]

I get your point, but BluRay and even DVD's are still selling to the tune of tens of millions of units per year. That's hardly "obsolete." I understand cynicism - I'm as cynical as anyone here - but the reality is that simply declaring something "obsolete" doesn't make it so, regardless of what you believe about the future. Besides, I really don't think the future lies in smaller media. It lies in no media, as in streaming and cloud based distribution, because that is by far the most cost effective way to distribute digital information, and it's "convenient enough" that most consumers will be able to access it. And if you think that mobile devices will require hard goods of any sort, you haven't looked at your phone lately. Or, within 2 years or so, your car.

Agree totally Mike .... just came back from CES last week (first time I'd been) ... the combination of multi-media hand-held devices and Cloud based distribution of video media was a very big underlying theme .... Apple started the revolution but the Asian and Chinese electronic manufacturers may well end up taking it to the next level.

The other key trend I saw there was 4k 3D TV display technology ... the LG booth was quite stunning even though it was only showing 2k high-speed footage up-rezzed to 4k ... can't wait to get some EPIC 4k 3D footage playing on one of those new LG OLED displays .... will be something else!

We had a 3D 4k EPIC music video playing on a LG glass-less smart phone ... we joked about '3D in your hand' ... people we showed it to were generally amazed by the image quality and the 3D-ness of the device.

The times they are a changin' ... as some old time poet once said.

Neil

[Patrick S. Marshall]

Obsolete not only means "not in use" but it also means "out of date", and I meant it in the latter sense. What you call cynicism, I call reality. People still use cars with combustions engines, albeit we would not have to. Just because people buy and use stuff, that doesn't mean there is no better way, something more useful, something that would make more sense. Of course people are buying DVDs and BluRay, they do because it's what's available. There are countries that still make use of VHS and mules are often used instead of cars...

If you check my post again, you will notice that I commented the further use of BluRay and that if a physical medium is used, a chip would be the better choice. I did not go into medium-less storage, because it was not part of the post I replied to.
I agree that it will be the future, but there is one thing that will be much harder to change than a transition from one medium to the next, and that is the sense of ownership most people have. Cloud based storage is intangible. It is hard to show off your big collection of movies, books and LPs (one of the reasons why vinyl still exists, and books will be printed for many more years to come), if they only exists in digital form. And than there is also the legal side of ownership. A cover, a bill, a frame, a box. No matter what it is, many people will want something physical that documents their rightful ownership.
So while you may store your collection somewhere in a data-cloud, you may still have a hard copy, that gives you the sense of property. The coming generations (and the neophiles of the current) will have much less of a problem with this, as app-stores, mp3s and e-books show. But I think that's because we associate it very much with the device. Once the device matters less, that may also change a bit. Nonetheless, even if people at the forefront (I personally store most of my media digitally and) have no problem with the more abstract version of ownership, digitalization brings with it, they are not the mass market, which, as you pointed out correctly, still buy DVDs.

Besides, there will be plenty of times, places and reasons one is not connected, where a hard copy will make sense. And for that I suggest, we support the digitalization more by using chips with non-moving parts.

[Stuart English]

What's clear is the majority of audio visual content already is, or will in future be, delivered "over the network" to IP connected players.

That does not mean that Broadcast TV, DVD's or Blu-rays or other methods will vanish any time soon. And the "archive" and "slow network"arguments for physical media have merit, which is why RED RAY can support both network and physical delivery....

... however arguments such as "TV won't change", or "people own DVDs or Blue-ray are happy with that", so a new 4K resolution delivery system cannot / will not be adopted by an economically significant community of vendors and customers; that's just FUD.

How big that community will be in X months / years is the only question IMHO.

[Tim Whitcomb]

... however arguments such as "TV won't change", or "people own DVDs or Blue-ray are happy with that", so a new 4K resolution delivery system cannot / will not be adopted by an economically significant community of vendors and customers; that's just FUD.

How big that community will be in X months / years is the only question IMHO.

+ ! - same things were said about "talkies. color, TV, VHS, cable, dvd, blu ray, ?, and eventually same thing will be said when someone (aliens) DOES invent the Jor-El Superman crystal holographic recorder/players

[Wayne Morellini]

He, he, Tim. Amazing how people discount and don't see te future.


The problem lies within the medium used. People still think in tapes, disks and such. Completely obsolete. A small cartridge in SD or microSD form factor with 64GB+ shouldn't be much of a problem today and soon these numbers will be exceeded by a lot more. This way it could be used on all sorts of devices, including mobiles and we would make the evolutionary necessary step away from moving-parts media and we could very easily go 4k and beyond. If I'd be a movie distributor, I'd go solid sate cards now. BluRay sucks anyway. Never liked it, never will and I am glad if it dies out.

I agree that is possible, but for now we have to think how much a 64GB card costs compared to a less than $1 read only stamped disc. Flash is running out of head room restricting eventuqly price decreases, but other technologies are supposed to replace it, ironically also memory based on the recording medium used on discs. ;)

The other problem is the size, small memory cards are intangible, you don't seem to own much, and easy to loss. When I was designing formfactors for new media, I quickly realised this, and made them bigger. I had a mini SD card with a important backup that I lost, and have not seen again, it might have disappeared uo the vacume cleaner ;)



I agree that it will be the future, but there is one thing that will be much harder to change than a transition from one medium to the next, and that is the sense of ownership most people have. Cloud based storage is intangible. It is hard to show off your big collection of movies, books and LPs (one of the reasons why vinyl still exists, and books will be printed for many more years to come), if they only exists in digital form. And than there is also the legal side of ownership. A cover, a bill, a frame, a box. No matter what it is, many people will want something physical that documents their rightful ownership.
So while you may store your collection somewhere in a data-cloud, you may still have a hard copy, that gives you the sense of property. The coming generations (and the neophiles of the current) will have much less of a problem with this, as app-stores, mp3s and e-books show. But I think that's because we associate it very much with the device. Once the device matters less, that may also change a bit. Nonetheless, even if people at the forefront (I personally store most of my media digitally and) have no problem with the more abstract version of ownership, digitalization brings with it, they are not the mass market, which, as you pointed out correctly, still buy DVDs.

Besides, there will be plenty of times, places and reasons one is not connected, where a hard copy will make sense. And for that I suggest, we support the digitalization more by using chips with non-moving parts.

Patrick is correct, I have been on about this for a while. It is also the case you actually do own it and have the rightful moral right to resell it and get something else, do not have to pay much to pay it, do not have to worry about communications disruption, and most of all, your ownership right is no tued to the continued existence of the company cloud hosting the media, they die and your discs stay in your possesion and importantly keep playing unless there is something else stopping you. This cloud is an underhanded con job to take advahtage of you and control you to get more money out of you, over your life, then what it is worth, and more than a discount disc. I wonder what these companies are going to do in the case of wills where ownership is passed to new owners, will they owner it?

[Patrick S. Marshall]

[you]do not have to worry about communications disruption, and most of all, your ownership right is no tued to the continued existence of the company cloud hosting the media, they die and your discs stay in your possesion and importantly keep playing unless there is something else stopping you
And it shows how vulnerable the cloud really is. MegaUpload got closed down and some people who payed for services also lost data in the process and as the crazies keep trying to censor the net more and more, it will happen more and more times.

[Wayne Morellini]

It is all crazy Pactrick. Imagine what happens in natural disasters, a major solar storm even, or war, lots of way to be cut off or closed down, not just legal intervention. If there is a legal dispute between companies on copyright ownership, even on contract to use copyrighted material, even just a single frame of a accidentally filmed copyrighted work in a movie, given a sympathetic judge, in future it may even be used to shut down a site with 100 million + users, with the way the law is going, talk about service interruptions. There will be new insidious ways to wage corporate battles. The studios have to realise all this stuff they are supporting can be used very wrongly even against them, and once court battles go into the hundreds of millions+ things will get even more obvious. Like the electronics industry IP battles (and remember, future owners of studios from other industrues, are free to bring this mentality with them) where we get some litigious players that think they should own everything, even slight styling, one side gets a bit, or massively, greedy, another gets offended, then it's on for the next x months or years, but unlike electronics and patenting, to do swift damage and cost a lot you will not need little money to do it. Imagine if dense people passed a copyright law where you could potentially close down a whole movie release or cloud movie site because an arty restraunt owner designed a unobtrusive, but unique, rubbish bin to put out side his restraunt on the pavement, or a window display, and decided to have a go. I could design a rubbish bin and get Asian manufacturers to use it for cheap rates so evtually it comes up in film. I think this whole thing about the Hollywood sign is also rediculouse, if it is a public display / landmark, common object, you should be able to have it in shoot. These are why you are carefully designing laws not to be too expansive, and why business should be too, people are crazy enough to do things like this, if you let them of course.

Another craziness, is thus talk of getting rid of tapes and disks, to use hard drives to archive your movie footage. The surfaces of dusks are prone to deterioration of the recorded data, or they were years ago. If you drop one, you might crash the head and loss data. When the custom electronics in the drive age and faulter (notice I said when not if) you then have a potentially very difficult and costly task of trying to figure out how to recover that data. Flash is another prone to deterioration. If you drop a fireproof, magnetic field resistant tape cartridge, what do you have, maybe a/broken cartridge in a archival tape format that can be recovered easily that will last many years. Dusjs are a bit more prone to damage, but have similar advantages. I did some theorising for designing new tape and archival systems in the past. You can record onto a medium with longer archival life and have a mechanism for data recovery, I came up with a mechanism that would work into millions of years. Tape is far from fully developed as well, forget even your mukti terabyte holographic disks, the mechanisms I came up with can far far exceed it's storage density for cartrudge footprint, many times over. As for longevity, that really depends on medium used, which affects recording density, so there is some trade off, and I am not saying I can achieve that density and thousand year plus archival times at the same time, but I should be able to make it durable format in handling. As ussual, no magic, just brains.

I just realised Stuart said redray will also be on physical format, great, great, great. I had a business scheme ages ago, you buy the cloud service and can get a disk with that. For copyright reasons the disk maybe sent out to you after the first 6 months of release with all other purchases for the month, which gives time to maximise revenue before a pirate can lay hold of a library disk (not that they can merely copy the lower quality stream from the cloud anyway). I know I am giving away strategy here, but also establishing a moral prior art date (the patent law sucks). Many businesses have stratergies, schemes and models that suck, fashionably not seeing the dimensions of the problems or of human aspects, or of the future, or how to handel them or design products, they really need to talk to people like me first that see these things.

[conrad gaunt]

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is.

When cathode ray tubes died, so did good looking tv IMO

I haven't seen any HD flat monitor display SD nicely, and most the hd content I've seen here in the UK, frankly, is compressed to f&*k. I'd rather run HD content through my downsampler and into a SD CRT frankly

As for projectors..Some imax employees display a b&w checker board image onto an imax screen. they subdivide the squares over time and wait until individual pixels have shrunk until they are no longer visible, and the image has turned grey.. and the result?.. we have approx 720p worth of distinguishable pixels on an imax screen..and the legend has it they stopped working for imax. I'll believe the projector hype when I see it..measured with charts!

The point is, projectors can't display resolution as high as a modern monitor because they lack the contrast ratio, and a flat HD monitor is designed to maximize resolution/definition/c/ratio.. which is why their line skippy SD up-samples look so crap and edgy. The pixels are too "discrete", the CRT blurred them together in a really organic way. I wouldn't mind if they had decent built in gaussian blur filters.. but most don't, just crappy digital tweaks.. and bizarre frame blending interpolation nonsense so idiot filmmakers like that one that filmed hitler outside his bunker in 1945 etc can have their crappy low fps footage corrected by some tv 50years later using a subjective algorithm just so we can make hitler look smoother for a few seconds.. or some David Icke fan sees a news reader/lizard person morphing on live tv.. we need to take control back before TVs start rewriting history (without the need of hollywood screen writers).. that reminds me, I need to go on ebay and look for a proper monitor of the none flat variety free of lizard people

[Wayne Morellini]

As Jeff said. Now you simply have bigger better TVs to notice things, and if you had 42 inch+ accurate crts back then you would have noticed too at similar distances.

Negatives don't negate positives, and a descent FHD TV will show just how crappy SD really allways was, and how wonderful FHD is. Believe me, I've even read the competition giving a much higher real resolution to I Max that was lower than their claimed resolution, than that anti-hype. It probably was a myth or mistake (bad optic setup even) rather than largest frame I Max. The organic, crt blooming is a sloppy technological flaw emulatable on fhd or shd. Maybe the brightness and satuation of the laser projector will be able to give people real blooming again, on their retinas.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

What's clear is the majority of audio visual content already is, or will in future be, delivered "over the network" to IP connected players.

That does not mean that Broadcast TV, DVD's or Blu-rays or other methods will vanish any time soon. And the "archive" and "slow network"arguments for physical media have merit, which is why RED RAY can support both network and physical delivery....

... however arguments such as "TV won't change", or "people own DVDs or Blue-ray are happy with that", so a new 4K resolution delivery system cannot / will not be adopted by an economically significant community of vendors and customers; that's just FUD.

How big that community will be in X months / years is the only question IMHO.

It's easy to say that the internet is convenient and doesn't have the constraints of physical formats but this ignores the biggest problem that this delivery faces, ISPs.
The internet companies are already annoyed about the amount of bandwidth which netflix causes, imagine what it will be like when everything online is a minimum of 4k, I don't think they will let it happen lightly and you will end up with services which cost a fortune in bandwidth costs and depending on the time of day take either 3 mins to download or 3 hours.

[Marc Wielage]

The internet companies are already annoyed about the amount of bandwidth which netflix causes, imagine what it will be like when everything online is a minimum of 4k, I don't think they will let it happen lightly and you will end up with services which cost a fortune in bandwidth costs and depending on the time of day take either 3 mins to download or 3 hours.
Most current Blu-ray discs -- which is fairly-compressed 1080, 1/4th the resolution of 4K -- are around 50GB. Try to send 50GB on a "high-speed" internet connection, and let me know how long it takes.

Eventually, we will have this kind of bandwidth. But even at the 25Mbps data rate we have in my neighborhood, it takes an hour or two just to download 1GB. A 50GB Blu-ray disc would take well over a day. I couldn't put a number on how long before this capability will happen, but even if bandwidth goes up 10 times in five years, it'll still take hours to get just Blu-ray quality from point A to point B. Assuming dedicated fiber connections and tons of money, no problem -- but that's a big assumption. If 4K content takes up 4 times more space... that's a lotta data.

[Wayne Morellini]

This is all true, but eventually the cost can become less than a cent. The waveform of an electron should be able to store an unlimited amount of data, or so it was announced years ago. As a technologist science friction writer and designer, this is the level of theoretical I consider. Optical communications should also be able to compress much more data down their pipes. Eventually with increase of method the cost can be reduced. Even though such things sound trendy, in reality, there are practical limitations to getting and keeping the waveform on that electron, though I have sound ideas, the reality, is that no where near unlimited might ever be achieved as for our capability, and eventually so much energy would be required before that point, that said electron could be able to theoretically do a lot of damage to the Earth if it came into contact. Likewise with optical communications there are limitations, you need a channel that is transperent over ever increasing frequency mix (basically maybe an impossibility for normal materials) and ever decreasing losses in energy (either factor will burn through a cable with increasing power eventually, left un-addressed). As I am not a material scientist, I can not give an estimation of likely ultimate capacity of optical cable, but with the reduced bandwidth of Redray, and my own codec ideas, there may well be enough capacity for our needs well past 4k 3d. For the moment, just the primitive redray performance should suite eventual drops in cost, to deliver 4k cheap. A big factor might be optical routing which can skip conversion to electrical signals back and forwards, between the storage device and the users home. Not only are they reportedly immensely on immensely faster than conventional semiconductors for routing they make the process cheaper. 5 years is the time frame to see optical in computers, along with other network advancements. So in 5-10 years the picture could be much clearer. However, I envisage some pretty nifty science and techniques to eliminated some of these obstacles in channels and routing, if only I can get funding and verify a few things.

[Stuart English]

If 4K content takes up 4 times more space... that's a lotta data.

Yeah but it doesn't. Your 50GB Blu-ray disk payload you referenced is more like 16GB on RED RAY.

And if you really have a 25Mb/s download on your internet, that's real time for RED RAY ...

... which in turn tells me your internet provider may be telling porkies :-)

[Will Keir]

Well that tends to be where the market goes. The rise in tech starts slow, the last 100 years was the base-work. This exponential curve will continue to rise rapidly, 1080p is good enough for me. 4k will be that much better when I can afford it.

At the end of the day, I'll still watch old DVDs of my favorite flims. 720x480 aside, content matters. There are so many good old black and white films out there I have never seen or know about. Don't lose site of that.


2012 is shaping up to be the year of 4K.

4K Projectors for the home from more than one manufacturer - 4K TVs from 6 manufacturers that I am aware of. (5 confirmed - 6th is an exciting wild card rumor)

http://smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/OLED_TV/T8A4B6T8

You can talk all you want about the slow and poor transition to HD - and you can sit there shooting 1080p content and claim that it will be many, many years before we are watching TV shows in 4K - but .... you'd be DEAD WRONG.

Things are VERY different now. TV is the internet. HBO GO has better compression in HD than some carriers. APPLE's VOD numbers for indie films are insane (in a good way). There's COMPETITION to deliver content - Google, Amazon, Apple, Hulu (with more than twice as much as the combined total of video streamed from the websites of ABC, CBS, the CW, Fox and NBC) - so .... delivery platforms will need to differentiate themselves with QUALITY. I'm aware of one early start-up company already working to be the first all 4K broadcast channel.

2012 the 4K dominos will fall.

1080 is the next Black and White. (and yes - you can still make a good movie in black and white ala "The Artist" - but harder when it comes to financing and selling the content)

[Marc Wielage]

Yeah but it doesn't. Your 50GB Blu-ray disk payload you referenced is more like 16GB on RED RAY. And if you really have a 25Mb/s download on your internet, that's real time for RED RAY ... ... which in turn tells me your internet provider may be telling porkies :-)
Speaking of which, have you guys publicly stated what the data capacity of Red Ray is? Just a GB capacity, plus a Mbps throughput? I'm honestly curious where you're at there.

I don't doubt that Red Ray can work -- I'm skeptical only as a delivery medium for home use, or as a format to sell in stores. For pro dailies and screenings, sure. JPEG2000 can fit on a lot of formats, and the size of the DCPs out there is not ridiculous; I've seen them well under the 50GB capacity of a dual-layer Blu-ray.

[Wayne Morellini]

It will be a real hoot if it is 5d+ wavelet.

Stuart, from prior talk Red ray was less than 10 mb/s and is now below 20mb/s or something, my guess in no small part because noise is niosy to sound good. But it is not really 16GB compared to 50GB, as BD is 1080 instead of 4k.

However, it is possible to break linerarity of compression ratio between two resolutions for similar quality with variouse techniques I have been looking into (yes, it is deliberately obscure as usual) which means shd 4k does not need to be anywhere near 4 times the data rate of 1080 to maintain similar quality. I find even intelliegent people have problems grasping (believing) such concepts as they are usually primitively tied into refining past mechanisms rather than the pure true intelligence of accessing and creating and shaping new effective mechanisms. I have been eagerly waiting for Redray, it is nice to see my old research validated in new products (except when they have been personally illegally copied from my notes, as has happened to me, resulting in some top technologies). If it turns out to be something different than that would be nice too. The more I think about the more new branches of technology open up to me, I could probably define the whoe of space and time in a single wave. The guy from "A Brilliant Mind" failed in defining an algorithm to represent the movements of pigeons because he just was not good enough, if he was he would have quickly realised that mechanisms drive the pigeons behavours, and he could at least have defined a set of equations to roughly aporoximate the mechanisms leading to the movements (including environmental and social interaction of the pigeons) after examiing the mechanisns, enough for AI movement use in modern games. For the inspiration into the economic mechanism that ultimately he became famous for in the history of economics, from memory faiks me, but he won a nobel prize for it didn't he, that is the sort of thing I can come up with taking a single bite of a pea at lunch or tea (ussually too sick at breakfast), somewhat remarkable. People spend so much time not listening to those that know and can see, we are doomed to mediocre progress and we get what they deserve. :)

[Wayne Morellini]

Wow, this quick reply thing is really contradictory after being up all night ;)

[Todd T]

Red Ray isn't a storage device, it will read R3d files from whatever media you attach to it (CF, SSD, HDD,CD, DVD, etc.) and display the output on whatever projector or display you attach. The Mbps throughput is determined when the R3D file is created/encoded.


Speaking of which, have you guys publicly stated what the data capacity of Red Ray is? Just a GB capacity, plus a Mbps throughput? I'm honestly curious where you're at there.

[M Most]

Red Ray isn't a storage device, it will read R3d files from whatever media you attach to it (CF, SSD, HDD,CD, DVD, etc.) and display the output on whatever projector or display you attach. The Mbps throughput is determined when the R3D file is created/encoded.

I would contend that there's really no way to know exactly what it is and what it isn't until it actually exists as an actual product. And since it's already been two years since it was announced (or is it three? I'm not sure anymore) I stopped holding my breath a long, long time ago. And I also stopped trying to guess whether it would ultimately involve optical media, magnetic media, solid state media, or media of any physical sort at all.

[Wayne Morellini]

But you can M. There should be a patent out there by now, particularly because the release timeframe has obviously been extended. I have asked where the patent is on a thread I have posted red ray, and as Red did nit reply to say there is no patent, or it is nit out yet, we can assume that it is, maybe buried under some unfamiliar names and businesses names. It may well be several, it maybe based on licensung a number of other patents, with their own patents gluing things.

Even without this, the more refine you become the less avenues there generally are for increasing performance, anybody with a sound mind, skill and a sound knowledge should be able to work out what it maybe, and even patent it before. But most people can't see what is before them. I generally am obscure and don't say much in case people work out where I went design wise, but the reality is most people are too dumb to figure it out even if I was not obscure. I sit and regularly see not just the path ahead but the map of the terrain, the mechanisms of the solutions and the problems. I mapped out the future compression terrain years ago and still am a little, and there are a number of improvements but a fewer high yield paths left. The possibilities come down to a handful for true high yield performance, and not many people are that good to get far down those track, and I am not going to tell here and help them fill in the gaps, I want to make my own money. If however, they were donating most of the profit to charity and social improvements, I would help them, because that is what I want to make money to do as well.

I can also vouch, that virtually everybody that is not well financed to afford present products, are wasting their time waiting for pre-announced products that could eventually take years (however, redray should be around the corner by now). Buy what they have or have announced, or don't bother holding your breadth.

[M Most]

But you can M. There should be a patent out there by now, particularly because the release timeframe has obviously been extended. I have asked where the patent is on a thread I have posted red ray, and as Red did nit reply to say there is no patent, or it is nit out yet, we can assume that it is, maybe buried under some unfamiliar names and businesses names. It may well be several, it maybe based on licensung a number of other patents, with their own patents gluing things.

Patents describe devices both real and imagined. You can patent things that don't exist, and many patents cover such things. Filing for and/or receiving a patent has absolutely nothing to do with actually building anything. Products that are derived from such patents sometimes have similar features to those described. And sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're completely revised prior to actual implementation.

So, I reiterate: there's no way to know exactly what a product is going to be until there actually is one.


I generally am obscure and don't say much in case people work out where I went design wise, but the reality is most people are too dumb to figure it out even if I was not obscure. I sit and regularly see not just the path ahead but the map of the terrain, the mechanisms of the solutions and the problems. I mapped out the future compression terrain years ago and still am a little, and there are a number of improvements but a fewer high yield paths left. The possibilities come down to a handful for true high yield performance, and not many people are that good to get far down those track, and I am not going to tell here and help them fill in the gaps, I want to make my own money. If however, they were donating most of the profit to charity and social improvements, I would help them, because that is what I want to make money to do as well.

I's nice to know that compared to you I'm clearly intellectually inferior. Thanks for reminding me. :rolleyes5:

[Wayne Morellini]

Patents describe devices both real and imagined. You can patent things that don't exist, and many patents cover such things. Filing for and/or receiving a patent has absolutely nothing to do with actually building anything. Products that are derived from such patents sometimes have similar features to those described. And sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're completely revised prior to actual implementation.

So, I reiterate: there's no way to know exactly what a product is going to be until there actually is one.

I'm a bit confused by your answer, building something has everything to do with patenting (the opposite way around), and while it may not reveal business stratergy or unpatentable aspects, it shokd definitely reveal unique patentable aspects that should give the direction of the technolology aspect here (which undelying compression technique what enhancements, which is what we are talking about as Red have talked hardware player, online and storage media use, so what siginifcant left is there to know, and he come you don't use a real name).


I's nice to know that compared to you I'm clearly intellectually inferior. Thanks for reminding me. :rolleyes5:

You take things to personally M ;) , compared to most people, just a generalization, have you seen house yet, just a cynical sarcastic loser version of me :), If I wanted to be really superior it would be far less gentle and far more obviouse and blunt (and you have not seen that virtually anywhere here from me, though there have been the rare dubious person I have had to address to get them to back off). However, it pays to know how to pick your battles (the ones where you are already likely right). I am getting cynical of stuff around here though, sorry about that, but everything is subject too not working through, unfortunate fact in business that really cynical people call vapor ware, as if products were all hot air talk and never underwent development, these are hole in the head cynics/skeptics, really dumb (like most skeptical cynics), morally inferior breeds of intellectualism (but we all get some of that sometimes maybe).

But the truth is some if these things should have cone through, and even earlier for the ones that will. You do realise that not one of the truly technology revolutionary products have come through, except maybe a camera, a asci design and a sensor chip, none of which are that remarkable or ahead of what others have or should be able to do, outside of market impact. Redray maybe that product which does, cheap Scarlet was another on market side, Laser projector, depends on his it works, I have come up with over 100 laser projector designs myself, including the ultimate that they could still use in a thousand years (if I can get to release it).

You'll be happy to know, that I think that you are defintely superior to me in some way, even the "bum" so to speak, in the street is. Now, that is intellectualusm ;) .

[L. Langer]

Just for shits and giggles, I compiled a list of known 4K works that would launch the inevitable 4K media format, whatever the heck it will be...


Ocean's Thirteen
Catwoman
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (Fincher)
Poseidon
I Love You Beth Cooper
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Spider-Man 3
Priest
Reach For Me (Dalsa Origin's first film and the first 4K end-to-end feature)
Harry Potter & The Goblet of Fire
Charlie & The Chocolate Factory
Angels & Demons
Eat, Pray, Love
Water For Elephants
Blood Diamond
The Fountain
Lucky You
The DaVinci Code
Family Stone
Stealth
Spider-Man 2
The Next Three Days
The Soloist
Aliens Vs Predator: Requiem
Across The Universe
The Black Dahlia
Robin Hood (2010)
Essential Killing
No Country For Old Men
The Family Stone
The Graves
True Grit (2010)
Doubt
Love And Other Drugs
The Bounty Hunter (Gerard Butler flick that nobody here will admit to seeing)
Breathing
Defiance
The Green Hornet
The Other Guys
Salt
A Serious Man
War Horse
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Proud American
The Assassination of Jesse James By The Coward Robert Ford
The Karate Kid (2010)
30 Minutes Or Less
The Adjustment Bureau
Straw Dogs (2011)
Che
My Blueberry Nights
The Fall
The Amazing Spider-Man (2012) 4K-2D/2K-3D
Bright Star
Southland Tales
Inception
Cheri
How Do You Know?
Revolutionary Road
The Tourist
Iron Man 2
Katyn (Polish Film)
Things I Don't Understand
Rent (2005 adaptation of the musical)
Samsara
Baraka
Casanova (2005 movie with Heath Ledger)
The Omen (2005)
Sector 7 (Korean horror film)
The Other Side
Evan Almighty
James Cameron's Titanic (4K Re-master)
Patton (Restoration)
The Bridge On The River Kwai (Restoration)
The Sand Pebbles (Restoration)
Gone With The Wind (Restoration)
Cleopatra (50th Anniversary Restoration)
Blade Runner (The Final Cut/Director's Cut Restoration)
Alien (Restoration)
Aliens (Restoration)
Taxi Driver (Restoration)
Star Trek: The Next Generation (Restoration)
Apocalypse Now (Restoration)
The Godfather Trilogy (Restoration)

Feel free to let me know if there are any that I missed. I put together this list based on IMDB data and information from post-production magazines and colorist resumes.

[Gabriele Turchi]

I strongly think that 98% of those movies were finished and mastered @2k and not 4K...

g

[L. Langer]

I strongly think that 98% of those movies were finished and mastered @2k and not 4K...

g

Well, if you think any of them are incorrect, state which ones and provide proof. The list I have given was based on factual information available on the Internet from industry sources and not pulled out of my ass.

[Bruce Allen]

Just for shits and giggles, I compiled a list of known 4K works that would launch the inevitable 4K media format, whatever the heck it will be...

That's a nice list.

However, most of those movies had their effects done at 2K.

They would have to be re-done at 4K for a true 4K release. Not fun.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[L. Langer]

That's a nice list.

However, most of those movies had their effects done at 2K.

They would have to be re-done at 4K for a true 4K release. Not fun.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com (http://www.boacinema.com)

That's true with most movies but it is irrelevant. The list I posted is of films that have 4K DIs, regardless of whatever else applies.

[Bruce Allen]

That's true with most movies but it is irrelevant. The list I posted is of films that have 4K DIs, regardless of whatever else applies.

So if the VFX house delivered at 2K and they blew it up to 4K in the DI and printed to film, you count that as a "4K movie" ??

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[L. Langer]

So if the VFX house delivered at 2K and they blew it up to 4K in the DI and printed to film, you count that as a "4K movie" ??

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com (http://www.boacinema.com)

That's just the way things work with VFX Bruce. It's the technology vs time and cost of product game. Would I prefer 4K VFX? Sure. Do I or most people who watch movies give a shit if they did it at 2K and plopped it in a 4K DI? No, not really. Most VFX shots aren't Transformers-type stuff requiring significant graphic detail so it doesn't really matter as long as it looks good enough to watch and doesn't pull you out of the movie watching experience by being a serious distraction.

[Bruce Allen]

That's just the way things work with VFX Bruce. It's the technology vs time and cost of product game. Would I prefer 4K VFX? Sure. Do I or most people who watch movies give a shit if they did it at 2K and plopped it in a 4K DI? No, not really. Most VFX shots aren't Transformers-type stuff requiring significant graphic detail so it doesn't really matter as long as it looks good enough to watch and doesn't pull you out of the movie watching experience by being a serious distraction.

If you're saying that dropping down to upscaled 2K for the VFX shots isn't a distraction... Why the hell am I paying for a 4K movie and not just upscaling my BluRay?

If the "4K movie" brand wants to be credible... VFX shots need to be significantly sharper than on Blu Ray.

Nearly 1000 VFX shots in Social Network were done at 2K.

I already have the Blu-Ray.

If you're trying to sell me a 4K version and the movie gets soft every time we have the twins in the shot... I'm going to ask for my money back!

And if there is no difference between the 4K and 2K shots across the whole film... I'm also going to ask for my money back!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[L. Langer]

Like I said Bruce, it is what it is. Until technology, manpower, and hardware costs align to bring rapid turnaround of quality high-resolution VFX work, you have no choice but to accept it or tell Hollywood to outsource everything to India and Asia, where they can do 4K or higher VFX quickly, for less money with their setups.

[Wayne Morellini]

Just for shits and giggles, I compiled a list of known 4K works that would launch the inevitable 4K media format, whatever the heck it will be...


Ocean's Thirteen
Catwoman
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (Fincher)
Poseidon
I Love You Beth Cooper
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Spider-Man 3
Priest
Reach For Me (Dalsa Origin's first film and the first 4K end-to-end feature)
Harry Potter & The Goblet of Fire
Charlie & The Chocolate Factory
Angels & Demons
Eat, Pray, Love
Water For Elephants
Blood Diamond
The Fountain
Lucky You
The DaVinci Code
Family Stone
Stealth
Spider-Man 2
The Next Three Days
The Soloist
Aliens Vs Predator: Requiem
Across The Universe
The Black Dahlia
Robin Hood (2010)
Essential Killing
No Country For Old Men
The Family Stone
The Graves
True Grit (2010)
Doubt
Love And Other Drugs
The Bounty Hunter (Gerard Butler flick that nobody here will admit to seeing)
Breathing
Defiance
The Green Hornet
The Other Guys
Salt
A Serious Man
War Horse
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Proud American
The Assassination of Jesse James By The Coward Robert Ford
The Karate Kid (2010)
30 Minutes Or Less
The Adjustment Bureau
Straw Dogs (2011)
Che
My Blueberry Nights
The Fall
The Amazing Spider-Man (2012) 4K-2D/2K-3D
Bright Star
Southland Tales
Inception
Cheri
How Do You Know?
Revolutionary Road
The Tourist
Iron Man 2
Katyn (Polish Film)
Things I Don't Understand
Rent (2005 adaptation of the musical)
Samsara
Baraka
Casanova (2005 movie with Heath Ledger)
The Omen (2005)
Sector 7 (Korean horror film)
The Other Side
Evan Almighty
James Cameron's Titanic (4K Re-master)
Patton (Restoration)
The Bridge On The River Kwai (Restoration)
The Sand Pebbles (Restoration)
Gone With The Wind (Restoration)
Cleopatra (50th Anniversary Restoration)
Blade Runner (The Final Cut/Director's Cut Restoration)
Alien (Restoration)
Aliens (Restoration)
Taxi Driver (Restoration)
Star Trek: The Next Generation (Restoration)
Apocalypse Now (Restoration)
The Godfather Trilogy (Restoration)

Feel free to let me know if there are any that I missed. I put together this list based on IMDB data and information from post-production magazines and colorist resumes.

Thanks a lit for this. Which ones are fall Red, or where Red was the primary camera?

[Wayne Morellini]

I strongly think that 98% of those movies were finished and mastered @2k and not 4K...

g

Maybe the cheap option, is where there has been an upgrade in the production workflow software from 2k to 4k, and particularly if it is automated render, is to rerun it through the software from 4k footage input to 4k output, for each program, to end up with the same files/names in 4k for each orogram. down stream. If any footage or effects are in 2k, upscale them (even through something like the old Intel upscaling platform that will restore some higher resolution detail then the resolution shot in, used to be 100 hours of processing per frame neatly ten years ago). If anybody wants all native 4k, they can pay for the conversion of a special 4k print. If the work flow software is not set up to do this all ready, then why not! It will be crucial to have this for 4k and 8k dragon footage :)

To be real, if you have a most all 4k old film, with a little upscaled 2k, it does not matter so much,

[M Most]

Thanks a lit for this. Which ones are fall Red, or where Red was the primary camera?


The vast majority of the listed titles were shot on film. I'm not sure that they all went through a 4K DI process, though. And pictures like Spider Man 2 were about 75% or more VFX shots - all done at 2K.

[Evin Grant]

Benjamin Buttons (Great looking movie BTW) was shot on the Viper, a 2K/1080P camera, so no going back to the negative there for 4K.
Mike, Spiderman 2 (Or maybe 3) was one of the first films to actually do the VFX at 4K, it's the movie that convinced most producers to stick to 2K :emote_head_explode:

[L. Langer]

Benjamin Buttons (Great looking movie BTW) was shot on the Viper, a 2K/1080P camera, so no going back to the negative there for 4K.

It was film, Sony 1080p, and Viper 2K. Info I pulled straight from WB MPI (who did the DI) for the list says they did the DI at 4K but that might be an error on their part though I couldn't find anything to confirm what resolution the DI was done at despite common sense suggesting 2K given the use of digital video for most of the movie.

[M Most]

It was film, Sony 1080p, and Viper 2K. Info I pulled straight from WB MPI (who did the DI) for the list says they did the DI at 4K but that might be an error on their part though I couldn't find anything to confirm what resolution the DI was done at despite common sense suggesting 2K given the use of digital video for most of the movie.

The Viper was always an HD camera. There was never a "Viper 2K".

[M Most]

Benjamin Buttons (Great looking movie BTW) was shot on the Viper, a 2K/1080P camera, so no going back to the negative there for 4K.
Mike, Spiderman 2 (Or maybe 3) was one of the first films to actually do the VFX at 4K, it's the movie that convinced most producers to stick to 2K :emote_head_explode:

That would be SpiderMan 3, and not all of the VFX for that were done in anything larger than 2K either. I remember when SpiderMan 2 was touted as being one of the first "4K DI's" and how silly a lot of us found that claim when such a large percentage of the shots in the movie were either full on VFX shots or touched by VFX in one way or another.

[Wayne Morellini]

The vast majority of the listed titles were shot on film. I'm not sure that they all went through a 4K DI process, though. And pictures like Spider Man 2 were about 75% or more VFX shots - all done at 2K.

So vrtually none of these were a true primarily Red film? Can I guess a shot in cat woman that was done on Red, the one where they are in the dark kissing or something and poor Haely looks as white as her co-star. I mean, the skin tone differences are enormous over the film (but great film compared to what I was expecting though, did not really expect it to be much). Saw pictures of the Spiderman movie in Empire this week, the same color toning, and so dissapionted they rebooted it, yuck, won't be able to see Kirsten again ;) or the main lead in one more film (3d on Red).

Alright, here is a hot topic. How does the Red 3d setup on this film work? It has a sort of sheen on the skin tones etc, similar to the sort in magazines (what was the name of that slide film type they used to use?). It occured to me that shotting through a half mirror in a 3d system would do that.

[L. Langer]

Hrmm...well in some cursory checking, it looks like a lot of the info I got directly from Warner MPI contradicts IMDB but I can't find anything that is 100% certain for them other than the restoration work that everyone states was completed at 4K. Poo. At least the eFilm stuff is correct or seems to be at any rate. Wayne, Catwoman came out way before RED had any cameras available, so there's no RED footage in it. If you want to dig up some great Spiderman 3D information, just google some of the people involved and you'll find some good stuff eventually. Unfortunately, there have been a lot of articles put out lately that use the search keywords you'd be using, so you will have to sift through a lot of stuff. I remember finding a pretty nice write-up about the DI workflow in 3D that you'd probably like, but alas, I did not bookmark it.

[Wayne Morellini]

Who did I see saying Cat Woman had Red in it. Is it really that old, now I feel older. But still, I wonder what they used to shoot that scene I mentioned. Maybe it was shot with a blue light ting to it and they corrected the color to some facial tone, producing the effect.

[L. Langer]

Who did I see saying Cat Woman had Red in it. Is it really that old, now I feel older. But still, I wonder what they used to shoot that scene I mentioned. Maybe it was shot with a blue light ting to it and they corrected the color to some facial tone, producing the effect.

When Catwoman was in post, everyone was going batshit crazy with digital grading and all the new DI toys that were around, so it's a product of it's time. Many films made back then look just about the same as what was in the theater last week.

[Wayne Morellini]

If this is the proferred look I'm thinking about, great I wish more movies looked like that.

[Wayne Morellini]

Just watching SpyForce while checking this, an old classic Australian series. I've got the color up double and a red color shift and it still looks like ungraded digital with bad color shift. It is a real shame it never had that color correction movies today get, would have made a great series (even for today) much better.

People miss the point with digital, their is an optimum color balance for most films.

[Filip Orlandic]

And if you really have a 25Mb/s download on your internet, that's real time for RED RAY ...


My Star Wars BluRays have an audio data rate of a 5-6Mb/s. RED RAY's video data rate is still supposed to be a 20Mb/s or it just grew up again for another 20-25%?

20Mb/s video data rate + 5Mb/s audio data rate = 25Mb/, right or something else?

[Marc Wielage]

Alright, here is a hot topic. How does the Red 3d setup on this film work? It has a sort of sheen on the skin tones etc, similar to the sort in magazines (what was the name of that slide film type they used to use?). It occured to me that shotting through a half mirror in a 3d system would do that.
I think most of that is due to DP John Schwartzman and his choice of lenses, filters, and lighting, along with whatever was done in post. Glimmer glass, diffusion, pro mists, secondary keys... there's all kinds of ways to change images, particularly skin tones. My bet is on very skillful color correction in post, under Schwartzman's supervision. But it all has to start with a good image.

The new Amazing Spiderman trailer looks killer:

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/sony_pictures/theamazingspiderman/

I don't doubt the deep perspective high shots will be stunning, especially in 3D 4K.

[Wayne Morellini]

Thanks Marc, but was what I usually saw, however recent improvements might help, if there is time, or directors cut br disk.

I couldn't get the apple site to download the trailers, will have to go elsewhere. My present system can't run itunes, so it redirects to the homescreen instead of downloading :( . This locking out everybody else except your platform is pretty unacceptable, especially for something like this.

[Marc Wielage]

Funny, I'm watching them live on the Apple website, no downloading necessary. Most likely you need the latest QuickTime installed with your browser. This will be an issue with Linux, but not with any flavor of Windows or Mac OSX in the last 5-6 years.

[Wayne Morellini]

Funny, I'm watching them live on the Apple website, no downloading necessary. Most likely you need the latest QuickTime installed with your browser. This will be an issue with Linux, but not with any flavor of Windows or Mac OSX in the last 5-6 years.

Yep, priority, can't install.

[Marc Wielage]

I believe this link via Sony Pictures is feeding via Flash:

http://www.theamazingspiderman.com/

[Wayne Morellini]

Thanks Marc,

[Wayne Morellini]

Well, what can I say. I like the reader trailer a little better possibly, but there are things I don't like, like maybe a yellow or even greenish, shift I can see on known colors (I have seen the throw over on the couch in the child scene, or have one, plus the movie classification still, the shift in the blue in lab and skies) but at least it shows they can do it, if they want too. No t really my preferred look, but definitely (not counting shift) in the zone of what I like.

Now, can somebody do this to District 9?

As I might have said here before, there needs to be a footage container system, to preserve used footage and effects at maxinum used resolution and quality, for automated reprocessing into higher resolution master with new color space, that canbe tweaked for subsequent after market special collector edition releases (bluray and redray). In this the raw special effects and 3d creation files are also preserved to be rerendered or replaced at tgevnew target resolution and color space. This also includes automated resolution upscaling of highest quality, to fill in what can't affordably otherwise. A standard for this. Might be a job for George Lucas and crew.

[Marc Wielage]

I would not judge color accuracy based on a unknown flash file, with questionable gamma settings on both the file end and the monitor end, and too many variables in gamma settings, color temperature, and gray scale on computer monitors. But even given all that, I think Amazing Spiderman looks very, very good.

District 9 had an extreme look, and I think it's a given that this is what the director was going for. "Normal" was not the desired look.

Higher res and greater color spaces are part of the new Academy ACES file format, but it's not widely accepted at the moment.

[M Most]

Higher res and greater color spaces are part of the new Academy ACES file format, but it's not widely accepted at the moment.

ACES has nothing to do with resolution. Its purpose is to specify a theoretically unlimited color space for both archiving and working flexibility, and ways to get in and out of that color space to accommodate different capture devices (for input) and different display devices, both known and unknown. Resolution is not part of the specification.

[Wayne Morellini]

I would not judge color accuracy based on a unknown flash file, with questionable gamma settings on both the file end and the monitor end, and too many variables in gamma settings, color temperature, and gray scale on computer monitors. But even given all that, I think Amazing Spiderman looks very, very good.

District 9 had an extreme look, and I think it's a given that this is what the director was going for. "Normal" was not the desired look.

Higher res and greater color spaces are part of the new Academy ACES file format, but it's not widely accepted at the moment.

Yes I know, including the color shift in your vision system from in room lighting, I think I might have mentioned that here, definitely some thread lately. However, Sony's file, they should know what they are doing with their movie. But looking at many you know it is different. There is a yellow white balance on this display (a nice one), but more I think.

District 9, doesn't matter it is what looks good, and was too extreme in my viewing, I should break out my br edition on my colour balanced screen. It is a general thing with all red foitage I have seen in the period. Lots of grey, OK, but the color needed more for the time.

A scifi writer myself, I wonder when the next is coming. The end scene uses a simplified version of a control system I had for older stories.

[Steven Chill]

I believe this link via Sony Pictures is feeding via Flash:

http://www.theamazingspiderman.com/

Yes, thanks Marc

[Michel Hafner]

Is there any 4K material somewhere on the web as h264 file? Not youtube overcompressed stuff. Good quality h264 material.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Poor RedRay section being the dungeon of reduser...maybe Jim or Jarred can post something spicy in here to get the numbers up...this is yet again one of the next 'biggest ideas' for Red and I'm surprised it hasn't really generated more chatter.

[George Butterfield]

Things are VERY different now. TV is the internet. HBO GO has better compression in HD than some carriers. APPLE's VOD numbers for indie films are insane (in a good way). There's COMPETITION to deliver content - Google, Amazon, Apple, Hulu (with more than twice as much as the combined total of video streamed from the websites of ABC, CBS, the CW, Fox and NBC) - so .... delivery platforms will need to differentiate themselves with QUALITY. I'm aware of one early start-up company already working to be the first all 4K broadcast channel.This is why Hollywood lobbyists are so desperately trying to get laws passed so that the Government (Hollywood) can control the internet, or at least remove it as a competitor.

[Wayne Morellini]

Poor RedRay section being the dungeon of reduser...maybe Jim or Jarred can post something spicy in here to get the numbers up...this is yet again one of the next 'biggest ideas' for Red and I'm surprised it hasn't really generated more chatter.

Yes.

[Frederick von Sulle]

Is there any 4K material somewhere on the web as h264 file? Not youtube overcompressed stuff. Good quality h264 material.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLO7n3HiIks

4K on youtube uploaded in MAX possible quality. Compression is acceptable, judge yourself if you want original I can make it available.

[Mike P.]

Is there any 4K material somewhere on the web as h264 file? Not youtube overcompressed stuff. Good quality h264 material.

https://vimeo.com/40608724

If you download the "original" it's 4k h264 at 10mbits. So it is massively compressed, but seems to hold up fairly well when watched at (supersampled) down to 1080p.

[Martin Weiss]

Looks like future Macs are likely to have 4k displays.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/05/10/apples_latest_lion_update_continues_preparations_f or_retina_display_macs.html

[Marc Wielage]

This is a function more of the Intel Ivy Bridge chip, which (as the story notes) will support up to 4096x4096 resolution. This isn't necessarily optimal for all users and software. To me, on a 24" monitor, 1920x1200 works fine for running various programs.

4K will be important in future display technology and entertainment, but I think viewers will see the most dramatic results on wall-size (or bigger) screens -- not a 24" or 30" computer monitor.

[Subhadip Sen]

Is there any 4K material somewhere on the web as h264 file? Not youtube overcompressed stuff. Good quality h264 material.

Try Sintel (http://www.sintel.org/), it's an animation film. 4K X264 downloadable here: http://download.blender.org/durian/movies/.


This is a function more of the Intel Ivy Bridge chip, which (as the story notes) will support up to 4096x4096 resolution. This isn't necessarily optimal for all users and software. To me, on a 24" monitor, 1920x1200 works fine for running various programs.

4K will be important in future display technology and entertainment, but I think viewers will see the most dramatic results on wall-size (or bigger) screens -- not a 24" or 30" computer monitor.

I don't think you can look at screen size without considering viewing distance. For example, I use my 27 inch monitor from 2-3 feet away. 2560x1440 is not enough. I need more resolution than someone watching an IMAX screen middle of the theater. On the other hand, someone watching a 55" HDTV from 12 feet away, 1920x1080 is more than enough.

[Wayne Morellini]

This is a function more of the Intel Ivy Bridge chip, which (as the story notes) will support up to 4096x4096 resolution. This isn't necessarily optimal for all users and software. To me, on a 24" monitor, 1920x1200 works fine for running various programs.

4K will be important in future display technology and entertainment, but I think viewers will see the most dramatic results on wall-size (or bigger) screens -- not a 24" or 30" computer monitor.

I think I read that Ivy bridge can drive 2 or 3 4k displays. But if you are using all the premium field of view (which you can do with a 30 inch at close distance) then even 4k might not be enough (even 8k) to get pixels down. This is now 8k era, 4k was meant to come out in 2008 (4k has been out much earlier on small monitors as well), but we have let the consumer electronics industry dictate professionally what we do. Doing photographic work is an excellent reason to have 8k. When you blowup photographs to posters, it is another story, and I think there will even be a home market for A2 and A1 printers for the 32mpixel+ cameras. That is why the Red projectors 4k resolution is such a mistake, I can put them onto. a lcos manufacturer that already has 8k in the works. In a year or so the Red 9k camera will be out, and 4k will be old hat.


Subhadip, yes.

[J.D. Frey]

I get what you are saying. And 8k and above for stills is great, but I just saw my first 4k footage ever. To say it was amazing is an understatement. To say that the world will change when the public sees what they have been missing with current digital cinema technology is a statement of fact. If the cameras stay ahead of the curve and the projectors follow a few years after we will get to 8k eventually. However to sit around and wait for it to happen is a little silly.

Whatever you do- if you have not seen a 4k projection you need to go to a screening. You will be pissed you ever bought a ticket to a 2k movie.

[Tom Lowe]

I have released trailers in 4K H264. We are releasing my film "TimeScapes" next Wednesday as a 4K 14GB H264 MOV file. It's 45 mins long.

I believe that Sony 4K Blurays may start getting into the wild this year, or early next. And obviously Red is cooking something up.

[J.D. Frey]

I have released trailers in 4K H264. We are releasing my film "TimeScapes" next Wednesday as a 4K 14GB H264 MOV file. It's 45 mins long.

Cool Tom. I'll be looking out for the release next week. Good luck!

[Steven Veldkamp]

4K won't go mainstream until either the ps4 or the next xbox become available... but even then, most folks will still opt for 1080p simply due to the cost of 4k displays. I predict 2014 (late 2013?) will be the year of 4K.

[Brian Merlen]

I really hope apple ships some 4k displays on the 11th of this month when all the new models are out. Since Ivy Bridge supports it, I am hoping they can get it out to the consumers... I mean the Imac if given more PPI will reach that 4k mark...

[Ravi Kiran]

Are there any websites listing 4K theaters and movies with 4K DCPs?

[Patrick Tresch]

I have released trailers in 4K H264. We are releasing my film "TimeScapes" next Wednesday as a 4K 14GB H264 MOV file. It's 45 mins long.

I believe that Sony 4K Blurays may start getting into the wild this year, or early next. And obviously Red is cooking something up.

Hello Tom Lowe,

I've seen, in a newspaper here in Switzerland the most popular one "Le Matin", an article about your film beeing the first 4k film to be released. They Just missed the point on internet release but I think if you are even reaching "Le Matin" your are becoming a world phenomenom!!!

;-)

Keep on the good work.

Patrick

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have released trailers in 4K H264. We are releasing my film "TimeScapes" next Wednesday as a 4K 14GB H264 MOV file. It's 45 mins long.(snip)

Perhaps there's a separate thread that delves deeper into your mastering specs? IF not, I would love to know a bit more about the pipeline. Did you at some point make 4K DPX stacks that you then made into Cineform files that you turned into H264 MOVs in AME, Compressor, Sorensen, ???

Download only? Blu-ray data disc? 16GB flash drive?

Do tell...

Cheers - #19

[Jarred Land]

Are there any websites listing 4K theaters and movies with 4K DCPs?

Someone really needs to do this. Sony has a microsite that has theaters, but just for their projectors.

[Detlev Eller]

... let me think ... :-)

[Wayne Morellini]

Someone really needs to do this. Sony has a microsite that has theaters, but just for their projectors.

Your red ray laser sales force should be able to get this info.

[Alessandro Minelli]

I manage a list of 4K Theaters on AVMagazine Forum, but the list is for Italy Theaters only, sorry :sifone:

http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/17-cinemalcinema/178519-elenco-sempre-aggiornato-film-in-digitale-2k-4k

[Carsten Kurz]

Sony also has a site with at least Sony Pictures 4k releases:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-digitalcinema/resource.latest.bbsccms-assets-mkt-digicinema-latest-4kmoviereleaseslisting.shtml

- Carsten

[Stuart English]

Sony also has a site with at least Sony Pictures 4k releases:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-digitalcinema/resource.latest.bbsccms-assets-mkt-digicinema-latest-4kmoviereleaseslisting.shtml

- Carsten

What, no Spiderman ?

[Bruce Allen]

What, no Spiderman ?

Interesting list!

BTW How much of Spiderman was actually finished at 4K? Did they do certain non-VFX shots with a full 4K stereo pipeline?

The VFX guy said "Our working pipeline was around 2K resolution with a ten percent pad and 16 bit DPX colorspace”
http://www.fxguide.com/featured/spider-man-the-detailed-vfx-of-spiders-and-lizards/

BTW... I love the fact that even working at 2K, renders for the Lizard took 10 hours per frame!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[L. Langer]

Well, we know a 4K DI exists for the 2D version of the film. That much is known and is irrefutable. What they ultimately did with it, we don't know. I certainly don't know of anyone who can claim they saw it in 4K at any theatres and we have quite a few of them around here.