Boot up time

[Isaac Babcock]

Someone with a "new" camera on build 12, what is the current start-up/boot-up time... From turning the camera "on" to the moment you can start "recording"?

[dino g]

60 secs ...ish

[Michael Stanmore]

60 seconds is still a bit of time...

Maybe the camera should be booting up while the camera people are dealing with some other detail... rather than standing waiting.

[albert rudnicki]

As long it doesn't freeze up during the shoot, I am fine:)

[Brook Willard]

You learn pretty quickly to pick and choose when to reboot for battery swaps. A minute isn't that bad if you choose your timing well.

[Fence sitter]

Jim did mention trying to get this down to 30 seconds'ish. Is that still on the cards?

Fence

[Mark B.]

Why isn't this under a second? Most modern digital cameras can kick on that fast, so I don't understand why the RedOne can't.

[Lexicon]

Why isn't this under a second? Most modern digital cameras can kick on that fast, so I don't understand why the RedOne can't.

Probably because the RED One is like a PC compared to your average digital camera which is closer to a PDA.

[Graeme Nattress]

Because it's many times more complex and more flexible than any other camera or DLSR that I know of....

Graeme

[Dominic Cochran]

Why isn't this under a second? Most modern digital cameras can kick on that fast, so I don't understand why the RedOne can't.

No they can't

[J. Bernard Vallon]

No they can't

Yes they can. If I have my D3 in my right hand at my hip, and I see a shot, I can turn it on—and in the time it takes to lift the camera to my eye—I can take five shots before I even see the subject in my viewfinder. Its near instant.

[Jannard]

Only 5 frames? :-)

Jim

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Only 5 frames? :-)

Jim

I know...I think I'm getting arthritis...it sucks.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Is any type of "standby" mode possible to allow faster recording start and prolong battery life ?
Does system allow storing boot-up data in ram ?

[Steve Sherrick]

I think this still does pose a problem for the run and gunners. Not a show-stopper, but merely a potential shot-stopper. If you are doing doc work and you happen to boot the camera down and then suddenly a shot becomes available that the producer/director wants, it's possible you would miss it. I suspect that the Red team will find a way to eventually get this down to 30 seconds, which although still a long time for those of us that are used to being able to turn the camera on and go, it would still be a huge leap in this context.

There are going to be compromises but I think the benefits the Red camera will provide will outweigh them. In a feature film setup or any other planned shoot, I can see this being far less of a problem. As Brook mentioned you just try and find the right times to do the reboots.

Steve

[Dominic Cochran]

Yes they can. If I have my D3 in my right hand at my hip, and I see a shot, I can turn it on—and in the time it takes to lift the camera to my eye—I can take five shots before I even see the subject in my viewfinder. Its near instant.



Ah yes, my fault I suppose, I read digital cameras as meaning digital VIDEO (or cinema, since I'm sure someone will say that Red isn't video) cameras.
Since that is after all what we were discussing.

I know DSLR still cameras have faster startup times.

My 5D doesn't start up in less than a second though, must be nice!

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

Its not fast but then again its not a DVcamera. Its Digital Cinema. Even my best AC cant get a 435 up and running in 60secs after he gets the rawstock handet to him. The fastest reload I ever saw was my norwegian AC Eirik who could thread a 435 in 17 secs from rollout to ready to shoot....
JJ
DP
Denmark

[Cam Crowley]

Why isn't this under a second? Most modern digital cameras can kick on that fast, so I don't understand why the RedOne can't.

It's been said before that the RED is more of a camera/computer hybrid - a camputer.

It takes my new MacBook Pro roughly 50secs to boot from cold and nearly 90sec to go from cold to an Application (eg FCP or AE) start and ready to work. In that context I don't think a 60 sec boot up time for RED is bad at all - it would be great to get it down a bit but I think technology is a few years off the grunt that would be required to have a system like this booting in an instant.

How long does it take for the iPhone to boot BTW? Haven't actually seen one down here in Oz yet. I'm imagining even those take at least 15secs.

Cam

[Anders Holck]

My 5D doesn't start up in less than a second though, must be nice!

Actually according to Dpreview the 5D starts up in less than 0.2 sec from power off to first shot.

One minute can feel like a very long time, especially if you are the steadi operator with the whole crew staring at you :-) Plan ahead, that must be the way to get around it currently.

[Isaac Babcock]

60 seconds??? That's going to be quite a crux at times in the natural world. Sure, we can try to be smart about power-up/power-down timing... but it is not all that predictable out here.

Imagine the BBC/Planet Earth and their stunning snow leapord chase. 3-5 years looking for the cats, finally find a female and kitten. One morning the female leopord is sleeping, for hours. The camera is pointed at her, but off, you have limited batteries back there, she has done nothing for 3 hours, your not going to leave the camera on....

She hears something and perks up, you're lucky that you saw her, and turn on the power. She waits ten seconds, moves into a stalk, and the chase is on...you've seen it if you saw this episode of planet earth....it was a very long chase, remarkably filmed, the only ever witnessed of a snow leapord, and yet, the chase would've have been nearly over before the camera was ready to start recording. Ouch.

Of course, the above account is fictitious, I wasn't there. But I have been present for numerous similar occaisions, mountain lions, wolves... freaky-people...whatever your passion. It's a once in a lifetime, twice if your lucky, we often don't get a 60 second warning.

RED - I know you've got your hands full. I know there are a whole plethora of intended genres for the camera, and for many of them the 60 second boot-up is an inconvenience, but not a crucial factor. But in Natural History, if I may submit a plea on behalf of many wildlife shooters - this was the primary RED concern I heard talked around at the Jackson Hole Film Festival -

Please, please find someway to integrate a sleep/stanby mode. Something that takes less than 5 seconds to wake up and record. This is almost as important as the cold weather issue - which you put to rest nicely, thank you.

[Steve Sherrick]

In your scenario Isaac, the Red may not be the right camera choice...yet. I believe you will see improvement in this area. If not Red One, then Red Two. They have already improved it from its original boot time. So they figured something out that got them to the current state.

Jim is their number one customer. If he is shooting on the fly, which he seems to do quite a bit with the camera, then he is experiencing the same boot up issues, so rest assured, he will push for it to get better.

Steve

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The only thing I wood need, is a buffer battery which hold just some seconds, enough time for changing the main battery without shutting down the camera

[Daniel Reichenbach]

In your scenario Isaac, the Red may not be the right camera choice...yet. I believe you will see improvement in this area. If not Red One, then Red Two. They have already improved it from its original boot time. So they figured something out that got them to the current state.

Jim is their number one customer. If he is shooting on the fly, which he seems to do quite a bit with the camera, then he is experiencing the same boot up issues, so rest assured, he will push for it to get better.

Steve
Yeap, figure out Jim gets up in the morning, looks out to the window and sees a young Bald Eagle looking toward him, "Morning, if you wanna get a picture, I have to go in 10 seconds, so harry up."

[Scot Olson]

If you need to run continuously on battery power you might try this IDX Dual Battery plate (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/398123-REG/IDX_A_E241_A_E241_Endura_Dual_Battery.html). It allows you to run off two batteries. I believe you can also run off one battery until it gets low and then put a fresh battery on the empty slot and then remove the flat battery. You can also run off two batteries for extended run times and then swap batteries one at a time. Ether way you should be able to run continuously without powering down the camera.

Disclaimer, I have not tried this on a Red camera. I don't know if the Red batteries will communicate properly with the camera using this plate.

[Dominic Cochran]

Actually according to Dpreview the 5D starts up in less than 0.2 sec from power off to first shot.

One minute can feel like a very long time, especially if you are the steadi operator with the whole crew staring at you :-) Plan ahead, that must be the way to get around it currently.

Well I'm glad the Dpreview people are getting that kind of performance. I'm not, but I still like the camera. Like I said before, still cameras aren't really what we're talking about here though.

There aren't any digital video OR "digital cinema" cameras that start up in less than one second, that's all I was saying in my original reply post.

[Denis Buhot]

...as Isaac says ! the leopard scenario is no mere fancy. It happens every time a wild animal is at rest or on the lookout... You'll probably get no warning at all that the real action you've been waiting is coming...until too late. The real problem is not that you might be as unlucky as to swap batteries that very moment...rather that you'd have to take extra loads of batteries. Real wildlife shooting happens to occur very much off the mainroad, at times and who can afford extra burden ! A standby mode + a booting time reduced to 30" would make the Red one the perfect tool any wildlife cinematographer has ever dreamt of...So pleeaaase, you people across the Atlantic, don't get us stuck right on that ...
Besides, I'd like to be in contact with people considering Red for specific wildlife shooting purpose. Any volunteer ? DB



60 seconds??? That's going to be quite a crux at times in the natural world. Sure, we can try to be smart about power-up/power-down timing... but it is not all that predictable out here.

Imagine the BBC/Planet Earth and their stunning snow leapord chase. 3-5 years looking for the cats, finally find a female and kitten. One morning the female leopord is sleeping, for hours. The camera is pointed at her, but off, you have limited batteries back there, she has done nothing for 3 hours, your not going to leave the camera on....

She hears something and perks up, you're lucky that you saw her, and turn on the power. She waits ten seconds, moves into a stalk, and the chase is on...you've seen it if you saw this episode of planet earth....it was a very long chase, remarkably filmed, the only ever witnessed of a snow leapord, and yet, the chase would've have been nearly over before the camera was ready to start recording. Ouch.

Of course, the above account is fictitious, I wasn't there. But I have been present for numerous similar occaisions, mountain lions, wolves... freaky-people...whatever your passion. It's a once in a lifetime, twice if your lucky, we often don't get a 60 second warning.

RED - I know you've got your hands full. I know there are a whole plethora of intended genres for the camera, and for many of them the 60 second boot-up is an inconvenience, but not a crucial factor. But in Natural History, if I may submit a plea on behalf of many wildlife shooters - this was the primary RED concern I heard talked around at the Jackson Hole Film Festival -

Please, please find someway to integrate a sleep/stanby mode. Something that takes less than 5 seconds to wake up and record. This is almost as important as the cold weather issue - which you put to rest nicely, thank you.

[Hrvoje Simic]

It takes my new MacBook Pro roughly 50secs to boot from cold and nearly 90sec to go from cold to an Application (eg FCP or AE) start and ready to work.


Much of that boot time depends on the limitations of its HDD.
With the introduction of standby mode boot up time shouldn't be an issue.




There aren't any digital video OR "digital cinema" cameras that start up in less than one second...

I'd be happy if 1-3 sec from sleep to recording would be possible...eventually...

[I Bloom]

Unfortunately the confluence of limited battery life and boot up time can reek havoc on a documentary show.

I shot a doc using the Firestore drive, which takes maybe 30 seconds to boot. Unfortunately the batteries also die quickly, so I couldn't keep the drive on all day. I ended up getting more P2 cards shipped out to me, because I kept missing important things.

I foresee a similar issue with Red. Especially for people who are out in the wild, waiting for things to happen, or doing long timelapse shots. You're going to need serious battery life to shoot on Red.

It's also occasionally an issue in controlled environments. But as you get used to the camera, you learn to adapt to it.

Ian

[albert rudnicki]

Is there a "practical" standby mode on the Redone?

[red1225]

Its not fast but then again its not a DVcamera. Its Digital Cinema. Even my best AC cant get a 435 up and running in 60secs after he gets the rawstock handet to him. The fastest reload I ever saw was my norwegian AC Eirik who could thread a 435 in 17 secs from rollout to ready to shoot....
JJ
DP
Denmark

Give me a call. 17 seconds is way too slow.

[SF Geek]

Is there an adapter from 4pin XLR to the 5pin lemo connection that the Red receives? If so, perhaps a block or belt battery would last longer.

[Isaac Babcock]

In your scenario Isaac, the Red may not be the right camera choice...yet. I believe you will see improvement in this area. If not Red One, then Red Two....
Steve

I fear this response, and for the time being, will choose not to believe it. I have a couple months before delivery and I'll keep my fingers crossed for something to come through. Just a few weeks ago, Red would not have been the right camera choice due to cold weather...a week later it is fixed. I really hope for something similar here - a firmware update with a standby mode. I know, this probably isn't an easy request, else it would be there already.

Stuart seemed to imply in Jackson that it wouldn't be that difficult, simply firmware programming and it would likely be coming soon in a future build - that was October. Sorry if I'm mis-quoting you Stuart, but thats what I remembered...maybe cause I wanted to...

OK, I'll shut-up now and quit asking...but I'll still be hoping...

[I Bloom]

Give me a call. 17 seconds is way too slow.

To anyone interested, Red1225 is NOT kidding.

[Steve Sherrick]

Stay tuned, all is subject to change. We could wake up tomorrow and see they have a boot time of 10 seconds. You never know. They don't seem to sleep at Red, so you never know what they may come up with in the middle of the night. Like I said, Jim is shooting with this camera, so he is probably one of the people most anxious to see the boot time shortened. I have to imagine that he will push for this. I don't want to speak for him, but that's my assumption.

Steve

[Rich Schaefer]

FYI guys my #115 (build 12) takes 95 seconds. Get good power!

[red1225]

To anyone interested, Red1225 is NOT kidding.

Thanks Ian. Nice new logo too!! Give me a shout...we'll go for a pint.

[Karl H]

I thought I read a post from Jim saying 'boot up issue solved' or something.

[Nils Ruinet]

Yes Darkline, that's what I had also understood, from Jims post a few weeks ago ("what is really new") :

.....
4. Firmware improvements. The boot issue is gone. More features are enabled.

.....

Jim

I guess he wasn't talking about boot time...

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I fear this response, and for the time being, will choose not to believe it. I have a couple months before delivery and I'll keep my fingers crossed for something to come through. Just a few weeks ago, Red would not have been the right camera choice due to cold weather...a week later it is fixed. I really hope for something similar here - a firmware update with a standby mode. I know, this probably isn't an easy request, else it would be there already.

Stuart seemed to imply in Jackson that it wouldn't be that difficult, simply firmware programming and it would likely be coming soon in a future build - that was October. Sorry if I'm mis-quoting you Stuart, but thats what I remembered...maybe cause I wanted to...

OK, I'll shut-up now and quit asking...but I'll still be hoping...


I understand that as RED is really a computer it will take some time to boot from off, but I'm not convinced that it is impossible for the RED team to design a sleep function, like any computer.. That's what I am holding out for here.. 60 secs to boot, getting hot waiting around switched on in the sun, running down the few batteries we were able to take on an aeroplane too quickly.. There is a strong case for integrating a sleep function.. :-) I'm sure RED are on it, because otherwise they would have told us already why it is impossible...

[Stuart English]

Yes, there are techniques that can be applied to reduce the boot time further, so as we have the opportunity to do that we'll see how low we can get it.

[Lauri Kettunen]

You learn pretty quickly to pick and choose when to reboot for battery swaps.

Removed

[Obin Olson]

C'mon guys it's a 4k digital raw motion picture camera. not a DV cam!! let it take it's time booting! give em a break!

[Brent J. Craig]

Give me a call. 17 seconds is way too slow.

Agreed! :-)

[Brent J. Craig]

I would hope that once Red is running a stable firmware they could get the boot times way down by simply loading a preset operating system image.

We already know the little Red computer writes 28 Megabytes per second to its CF cards. How many megs does it theoretically need to read when booting up? In the 60 seconds it takes now, it should be able to read more than 1.68 Gigabytes. How big is the Red OS? I would hope it's a lot smaller than a gig and a half! Some Linux distributions are less than 32 Megs. Adding in all the Red magic and drivers for the multiple Red displays will obviously increase that, and simply reading from red's internal flash memory should be much faster than writing to external CF cards.

Perhaps someone more familiar with Red's internal workings can explain why the process is more involved than simply copying a couple of hundred megs into RAM off of some fast internal flash.

[Steven Caesare]

I would hope that once Red is running a stable firmware they could get the boot times way down by simply loading a preset operating system image.

We already know the little Red computer writes 28 Megabytes per second to its CF cards. How many megs does it theoretically need to read when booting up? In the 60 seconds it takes now, it should be able to read more than 1.68 Gigabytes. How big is the Red OS? I would hope it's a lot smaller than a gig and a half! Some Linux distributions are less than 32 Megs. Adding in all the Red magic and drivers for the multiple Red displays will obviously increase that, and simply reading from red's internal flash memory should be much faster than writing to external CF cards.

Perhaps someone more familiar with Red's internal workings can explain why the process is more involved than simply copying a couple of hundred megs into RAM off of some fast internal flash.

Much OS boot time is spent interrogating hardware, and waiting for it to initialize.

If you have a static hardware configuration in a known state, there's opportunity for optimization here as well.

-Steve

[Leif Thomas]

There's a cheap and trivial workaround to avoid booting when swapping the battery; One needs a Y-connected power cord with a diode in one branch.

I like the idea, but why do you need a diode on at least one branch? As you recommend, you will first attach a small battery to the diode-branch but then attach a full charged one again to the not-diode-branch.

I just don't know the function of the diode.

[Kevin Halverson]

A diode in only one branch is a foolish idea. It would only prevent excessive current flow if the diode isolated battery exhibited higher unloaded Voltage, but if the conditions were reversed, no protection would exist at all.

A pair of isolation diodes are necessary to prevent one battery from becoming the load to the other battery. Considering the very low source impedance that a battery of this capacity exhibits, connecting them directly in parallel (or using a single isolation diode) could easily result in very high peak currents and could damage the batteries. Explosions or fire are also a possibility, so you need something control the current flow, diodes are the obvious choice.

However, considering that the current consumption of the camera is near 8 Amps, this would cause a conventional diode (Si) to exhibit a forward drop of near 1 Volt. This drop along with the current consumption would force the diode to dissipate 8W which would necessitate a moderate sized heat sink and a stud mounted diode. A Schottky dual diode in a common cathode configuration wouldn't fair that much much better as their forward drop would still be about 700 mV in the same configuration and this is still over 5 Watts to dissipate.

The best approach is an intelligent set of MOS-FET switches. If one choose the correct devices and implemented them in an appropriate topology, the forward drop could be gotten down to around 100 mV which would reduce the Pd (power dissipation) to only .8 Watts. This is a manageable thermal load.

[Lauri Kettunen]

A diode in only one branch is a foolish idea. It would only prevent excessive current flow if the diode isolated battery exhibited higher unloaded Voltage, but if the conditions were reversed, no protection would exist at all. ... A pair of isolation diodes are necessary to prevent one battery from becoming the load to the other battery. ... The best approach is an intelligent set of MOS-FET switches.

Of course, fully agree with you -a too hasty thought from my side. A pair of diodes is not that great idea as it will cause losses. MOSFET? Why not, but it's not a everyman-build-it-yourself approach.