Tangent Elements

[Steve Johnson]

Hey,
Just got the confirmation email from Tangent about their Elements panels.

We are pleased to announce list prices for our Element panels. As is the case with our other products there will be three currency options, dependant on territory. Countries that use the Euro will use the EUR pricing. North and South America will use the USD pricing. All other countries will use the GBP prices.




GBP
USD
EUR


Element Tk panel
795
1195
950


Element Mf panel
725
1095
875


Element Kb panel
595
895
725


Element Bt panel
450
695
525


Bundle of Element Tk, Mf, Kb & Bt panels
2295
3495
2750




Shipping of the Element panels is now expected to commence in late January 2012. Our reseller network will be accepting pre-orders from mid January. Here is a link to our resellers list, please select your applicable region:

http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/reseller_list.asp

Package prices save a little bit of money.

Steve

[Jason de Vyea]

Thanks Steve. Looking forward to swapping out the Wave with the new Element. Is there any news on Tangent Element & Da Vinci Resolve compatibility?

[Steve Johnson]

Nothing so far Jason. I believe they are working on Resolve intergration but nothing confirmed.

:))

[Patrick O'Sullivan]

awesome. I'm definitely down for a full set

[Steve Das]

..hope it's better design than the wave..never used it myself..but alot of people seem to really despise it.

[Barend Onneweer]

The Wave is not perfect but it was the first panel at that pricepoint - and offers a lot of functionality. I've been happy to use it to avoid having to put 15k into the CP-200 series.

From what I've read the Element is at least on par with the CP-200 series in build quality. I guess the increased market for control panels allows them to lower the price point that much.

Barend

[Matt Gottshalk]

awesome. I'm definitely down for a full set

Same here.

[Kaku Ito]

The price point of the bundle is great. I switched from MC Color to the Wangent Wave and very happy with it (does not take precious ether port like MC Color and I need both ports for the ExaSAN by Accusys). I definitely buy the whole set and keep the Tangent Wave as the backup and to take out.

[jake blackstone]

Thanks Steve. Looking forward to swapping out the Wave with the new Element. Is there any news on Tangent Element & Da Vinci Resolve compatibility?

Not going to happen. But if it will (huge if), it will be neutered as with the Tangent and MC. Blackmagic needs to sell some of it's own panels. It's too bad. Elements looks like an awesome product for the price.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The Elements panels look great, but I agree with Jake. I'll buy elements if they get decent Resolve support... Until then... Nope. BMD could sell a truckload of the DaVinci panels if they wanted to, just need to cut the price to 1/5th of what it is now. With all the Resolve licenses out there, and the Lite users, there is no reason to be charging $30K for their panel. And it's a great panel system too.

If I were to buy a new panel today, I would probably go with JL Cooper. The MC Color would be my second choice. I owned the Wave in the past, but never liked the layout or ergonomics of the thing. Elements panel system looks like a huge step forward. I still question their use of USB though. Why not Ethernet like everyone else?

[Jason de Vyea]

Not going to happen. But if it will (huge if), it will be neutered as with the Tangent and MC. Blackmagic needs to sell some of it's own panels. It's too bad. Elements looks like an awesome product for the price.

I didn't expect them to release a free 'Lite' version, who knows. Even a neutered Element panel looks like a much better build than the Wave at such a low cost. Fingers crossed for Resolve/Element combo and development. I'd keep the Wave around just in case anyway, would be a great backup to the Element and awesome for offsite/assist machine work too.

Element with RedCine X would be cool too

[Greg M]

Wish Lustre would accept these.

[Luis Otero]

Sadly, I agree that BMD will not support Elements. They (as a combo) seems to be complete. With such price, it will make a great dent on the potential buyers of the DaVinci one. That is more than enough business reason for not moving ahead on supporting it.

Now, if BMD starts to sell theirs at a reasonable, sensible price, as Jeff said, then they can compete with the other options, including Elements. I have an Eclipse, and I am very satisfied, so Elements will be a great "upgrade" for me, but I will not hold my breath on it...

[M Most]

Sadly, I agree that BMD will not support Elements. They (as a combo) seems to be complete. With such price, it will make a great dent on the potential buyers of the DaVinci one. That is more than enough business reason for not moving ahead on supporting it..


I don't know why people feel that way. Blackmagic has built in support for panels that already outsell the Resolve panels by a very wide margin. More importantly, BM is selling more of the DaVinci panels than most people here seem to realize. No third party panel set will expose as many controls as the native panels, nor will they necessarily be able to remap certain functions like the native panels if BM doesn't expose those functions. For professionals in markets that demand them, there is no real substitute for "the real thing" no matter how nice the 3rd party stuff might be.

You might consider that Filmlight is now supporting MC Color and possibly other panels, but I really don't think that higher end pros would want to use anything other than the Blackboard with a Baselight. Not everyone is looking for the cheap way out, especially in the market segment that companies like Filmlight and BM are catering to with their native controllers.

[Luis Otero]

As a side note: people need to realize that the description of professional colorist has changed, wanted or not. This has been a topic that has been long discussed due to the easy financial access to tools such as Resolve, that I really thought the discussion of this was over. And no matter what rhetoric is used to negate this, the new reality is not going to change, period.

So, having that said and coming back to the topic at hand based on such new reality, for the "professional" that are looking to improve their business, not due to lack of skills, but looking for less expensive ways to use and improve them, this is an important area to explore and discuss.

If someone has access, directly or indirectly, to the Resolve panel, good for them! For the rest of us, if a new and better tool is available, we want to initiate the conversation to get it to work with our lower cost facilities.

[M Most]

As a side note: people need to realize that the description of professional colorist has changed, wanted or not. This has been a topic that has been long discussed due to the easy financial access to tools such as Resolve, that I really thought the discussion of this was over. And no matter what rhetoric is used to negate this, the new reality is not going to change, period.


Geez, Luis, chill out. I didn't say anything about redefining "professional," nor did I say anything about cheap vs. more costly. I referred to professionals **in markets that demand them**. That means the primarily larger markets that are generally very competitive and that contain clients used to high end treatment, who usually expect creature comforts and higher end equipment that they can see. It has as much if not more to do with the client base and their expectations as it does the guy running it. Different markets have different client expectations and thus different perceptions and needs. I was just making an observation, I wasn't commenting on anyone's professionalism or lack of it.


If someone has access, directly or indirectly, to the Resolve panel, good for them! For the rest of us, if a new and better tool is available, we want to initiate the conversation to get it to work with our lower cost facilities.

If you read what I said, I stated that I believe that the notion that Blackmagic won't support the new Tangent product is unfounded, and that the speculation that the reason is because it would somehow hurt sales of their own panel is a bit off the mark. In other words, I agreed with you, and basically expressed the opinion that there's no need to "initiate the conversation" with Blackmagic because they already know.

On a personal note, I would point out that I don't talk about these things from a lack of knowledge or direct experience. I happen to work in a very large, "high end" post facility that turns out many of tne network television programs you and others here probably watch. And in that facility, when I do my colorist work I primarily use either a Baselight with a Blackboard controller or a Linux Resolve with the repurposed 2K panels. But I also do some side work using a personal system, one that happens to be a Mac based Resolve with, yes, an MC Color controller. At work, the clients we serve expect us to be able to do a lot of things in a very short time, and the larger panels with direct function access allow us to be more efficient and thus serve their needs. When doing side jobs, however, my time is not so structured, and clients aren't breathing down my neck to get things done in the next 5 minutes. I'm the same guy on both systems, it's just that in one I can be more efficient and get more done in less time. That doesn't make me any more or less professional, but it does make me faster. And in that environment that's part of the expectation. In other words, I work in both worlds, and each has different requirements, which is why new and better third party panels aren't necessarily going to hurt Blackmagic's sales of the custom DaVinci panels. But that's only my opinion, it doesn't mean I'm right. Or wrong.

[Patrick O'Sullivan]

I think Blackmagic will get behind these panels. Hopefully they won't have a choice as more and more wave users and newer colorists start investing in full panels like the Element.

I haven't actually played with these myself but from what I hear the plastic is out and the button noise has been greatly reduced.

Pretty excited to see what Tangent can produce.

[Luis Otero]

No answer. Will not re-open an already settled topic for me. My clients react to the images I deliver, not to the equipment I show off. My bad to reply to your posting, Mike. So I am sorry.

[jake blackstone]

You might consider that Filmlight is now supporting MC Color and possibly other panels, but I really don't think that higher end pros would want to use anything other than the Blackboard with a Baselight. Not everyone is looking for the cheap way out, especially in the market segment that companies like Filmlight and BM are catering to with their native controllers.

In the interest of complete information, unless I'm mistaken, the last time I had visited the company (Hollywood Intermediate), that you're working or worked for, it had used a number of Baselights with, count them, zero of Blackboards. For what it's worth, Julius told me, that he actually preferred JL Cooper to Blackbard:-) I guess, since purchasing HI and renaming it, Delux didn't mind spreading some money around. Nevertheless, as you yourself pointed it out, on your own personal system you use MC Color. And that in itself proves my original point, that given a choice, majority of users prefer less expensive option, like Elements vs BM:-)
On the other note, Nucioda's Fuse now too supports MC Color. But the difference is their implementation is complete and not half baked, like BM. Controls are actually bidirectional, i.e. moving control on a Fuse moves a corresponding control on MC Color and vice versa. Very slick, just like I'd expect from a professional software.

[M Most]

In the interest of complete information, unless I'm mistaken, the last time I had visited the company (Hollywood Intermediate), that you're working or worked for, it had used a number of Baselights with, count them, zero of Blackboards. For what it's worth, Julius told me, that he actually preferred JL Cooper to Blackbard:-) I guess, since purchasing HI and renaming it, Delux didn't mind spreading some money around. Nevertheless, as you yourself pointed it out, on your own personal system you use MC Color. And that in itself proves my original point, that given a choice, majority of users prefer less expensive option, like Elements vs BM:-)
On the other note, Nucioda's Fuse now too supports MC Color. But the difference is their implementation is complete and not half baked, like BM. Controls are actually bidirectional, i.e. moving control on a Fuse moves a corresponding control on MC Color and vice versa. Very slick, just like I'd expect from a professional software.

In the interest of complete information:

Hollywood Intermediate ceased to exist over 2 1/2 years ago. It was renamed Next Element prior to Deluxe purchasing the company. It no longer exists because it was closed when Deluxe bought the Ascent companies and a number of us were absorbed into Level 3 Post. That's where I work now and have for the last 9 months or so. Julius hasn't been with the company since the Ascent deal, and I haven't run a Baselight without a Blackboard in over a year and a half. The reason I use an MC Color on my personal system is exactly the reason I stated earlier. I don't need the efficiency that I need in a facility setting where everyone, including me, is on the clock. I don't use it because I prefer it, I use it because it makes economic sense for side work that doesn't have tight deadlines and client interaction. The only reason Julius would say what you state he said is because like many experienced colorists he is something of a creature of habit and was unfamiliar with the Blackboard before we got 5 of them. After using it he didn't want to go back to a keyboard and Cooper setup. Nobody I know does. That is a very typical scenario.

If you're going to make such statements, please try to be a bit more up to date and stop rehashing ancient history as if it's current fact. And stop trying to somehow prove that I'm saying things I either don't believe in, don't practice, or are misleading. Show some respect once in a while, it goes a long way. :ihih:

[paulherrin]

you guys are too funny :)

i really want to start using a panel, but i'm concerned it will make me argumentative.

but seriously, i do want to start using a panel... hopefully i can afford to pick something up in the next year. is there anywhere you can take them for a test run? seems silly to buy something like that without trying it out for at least a bit of time. any suggestions?

oh yeah, merry christmas :)

[Marc Wielage]

Find a good local dealer, and see if they'll let you buy one with a conditional money-back guarantee, maybe for 10 days or so.

Normally, I hate the Tangent panels (having tried to use them before), but I have to say, these don't look too bad, especially for just $3500 (roughly 10% of the Resolve panels):

http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/images/element_400.jpg

If Blackmagic doesn't support it, though, I think it'll have limited appeal. Me personally, I think the Resolve panels are great, and I'd hate to have to compromise for something that doesn't have the same feel and flexibility.


Now, if BMD starts to sell theirs at a reasonable, sensible price, as Jeff said, then they can compete with the other options, including Elements.
Given that the old DaVinci panels were $100,000, and the new ones (which are actually better and more reliable) are only $29,995, I think Blackmagic is already doing an exceptional job at reasonable prices. Compare that to, say, the Pablo panels or the Blackmagic panels, which are many times more costly.

[ERIC PECK]

If it supported Resolve, this panel would be a great intermediate step between the current Wave and the 30k$ panel.

[M Most]

Given that the old DaVinci panels were $100,000, and the new ones (which are actually better and more reliable) are only $29,995, I think Blackmagic is already doing an exceptional job at reasonable prices. Compare that to, say, the Pablo panels or the Blackmagic panels, which are many times more costly.

I agree. The age of "free or ultra cheap stuff" has really distorted people's views of what constitutes value, especially here. It's also harmed the ability of companies to make money, but that's another story altogether. In most cases in this business as well as others, you do largely get what you pay for, at least most of the time. The question is whether or not you need it.

I'm not aware of a standalone price for the Neo panel, but the Baselight Blackboard - the original design - goes for a little over $40K last time I checked. The new Blackboard 2 goes for about $65K, but that price floats a bit when you buy a new system that includes it.

[Gabriele Turchi]

The Elements panels look great, but I agree with Jake. I'll buy elements if they get decent Resolve support... Until then... Nope. BMD could sell a truckload of the DaVinci panels if they wanted to, just need to cut the price to 1/5th of what it is now. With all the Resolve licenses out there, and the Lite users, there is no reason to be charging $30K for their panel.

jake did you ever see a davinci panel ?????

is not plastic , it have 60 mapped action on lcd screen ""large"" at the same time (the wave have 9 (the element more , but those are very tiny and never mapped with a direct (underneath button or knob) , it 32 knobs , maaaany buttons , all super solid metal ...

how could it cost 5K ???
so the wave should cost 150 usd??
come on guys let's be realistic ...

i think that resolve should be sold as bundled ONLY with the panel for 20K...but the panel at 5K to me is kind of unrealistic request .

[jake blackstone]

In the interest of complete information:

Hollywood Intermediate ceased to exist over 2 1/2 years ago. It was renamed Next Element prior to Deluxe purchasing the company. It no longer exists because it was closed when Deluxe bought the Ascent companies and a number of us were absorbed into Level 3 Post. That's where I work now and have for the last 9 months or so. Julius hasn't been with the company since the Ascent deal, and I haven't run a Baselight without a Blackboard in over a year and a half. The reason I use an MC Color on my personal system is exactly the reason I stated earlier. I don't need the efficiency that I need in a facility setting where everyone, including me, is on the clock. I don't use it because I prefer it, I use it because it makes economic sense for side work that doesn't have tight deadlines and client interaction. The only reason Julius would say what you state he said is because like many experienced colorists he is something of a creature of habit and was unfamiliar with the Blackboard before we got 5 of them. After using it he didn't want to go back to a keyboard and Cooper setup. Nobody I know does. That is a very typical scenario.

If you're going to make such statements, please try to be a bit more up to date and stop rehashing ancient history as if it's current fact. And stop trying to somehow prove that I'm saying things I either don't believe in, don't practice, or are misleading. Show some respect once in a while, it goes a long way. :ihih:
Nothing in my statement is incorrect. HI was purchased by Delux and renamed 2 1/2 years ago. That is not such an ancient history by any measure. But even if it was, so what? At the time Julius liked the JL Coolper. So, what? Blackboards appeared only after the Delux purchase and then he liked the Blackboard. Was I wrong to make that statement too?
An overwhelming majority of present Resolve users are independent, tiny one man and women operations, that will never purchase $30k panel. But at $5k or under they just may. Those users clamor for full feature, no compromises, individually configured, well built, inexpensive panels. Right now no present Resolve supported panel fits the bill. BM needs to issue the Resolve panel SDK and start competing in the panel arena on above mentioned features.
This is a discussion board and you occasionally bias you positions to suit your point of view. Nothing wrong with a personal point of view. But when someone points out the inconsistencies, you immediately fly off the handle and accuse them of disrespect. How about sticking with the facts and leaving personal attacks out of it?

[jake blackstone]

jake did you ever see a davinci panel ?????

is not plastic , it have 60 mapped action on lcd screen ""large"" at the same time (the wave have 9 (the element more , but those are very tiny and never mapped with a direct (underneath button or knob) , it 32 knobs , maaaany buttons , all super solid metal ...

how could it cost 5K ???
so the wave should cost 150 usd??
come on guys let's be realistic ...

i think that resolve should be sold as bundled ONLY with the panel for 20K...but the panel at 5K to me is kind of unrealistic request .
Yes, I had seen and used it on many occasions. But I also seen and used many other panels, like Blackboard, Nucoda Film Master control surface or CP-100/200/300. Would I like to have Resolve panel? Sure! Will I buy it? Not a chance. I'm refusing to support a single use hardware, like Resolve panel or RR. MC Color meets all my current needs right now- Smoke, Baselight on FCP, RedCine, Scratch, Resolve, Fuse etc. But that is not the point. I have no problem, that BM charges $30k for the panel. They do not force anyone to buy it. Resolve runs just fine without that panel. It's beautifully built and they have every right to charge whatever they want for it. My main objection is to the support of other panels. By now it is obvious, that BM has no interest in providing inexpensive, robust, user configurable panel support. It had been now over two and a half years, that Resolve had been out, but there is still no inkling of panel SDK of any kind. If there was one by now there would be number of tools, allowing remapping of the controls. And, if there was a panel SDK, there would be no reason to wait for BM to support certain panels, like Elements. Tangent would have done it gladly, knowing, that would then be able to sell a boatload of them. Resolve is kinda unique, because it wants to be the high end app (the usual talking points- Avatar, Company 3 etc) and at the same give it away for free to help selling their hardware. If you ask me, that sounds very much like bipolar disorder:-)

[Luis Otero]

Ditto. Ooops, I did it again.

[jake blackstone]

I hate the Tangent panels (having tried to use them before)

Having used in the past CP-100 quite extensively with Lustre, I have an exact opposite experience. I found CP-100 built incredibly well with great layout. Even now many Lustre colorists prefer CP-100 to Autodesk one (I do). If Elements is anywhere close to the built quality of CP-100 or 200, count me interested.
Please note, I din't include in that list CP-300 i.e Wave. It is, IMHO, complete garbage from the built quality and ergonomics stand point.

[M Most]

How about sticking with the facts and leaving personal attacks out of it?

Only if you agree to do the same.

[Jason Wingrove]

Has BMD ever actually SAID they won't support it ? or are we all just guessing. Because thats not what i heard?

[M Most]

Has BMD ever actually SAID they won't support it ?

No, they have not said anything of the sort.

[Luis Otero]

Has BMD ever actually SAID they won't support it ?... Because thats not what i heard?

If it does happen, it wil make many of us very happy ...!

[jake blackstone]

Only if you agree to do the same.

Done.