New Lithium battery rule...

[Jannard]

The DOT has a new rule for carrying lithium batteries on aircraft. DPreview.com has just posted it if you want to check it out...

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

So carry on only (max two, individually wrapped), no checking in. wow...
thanks for the heads up on this one Jim.

[Jarred Land]

Ive been talking to some airline people about this.. and it looks like if they are docked in the charger ( the Red charger allows 2 batteries to be connected ) it is likely deemed to be classified as " installed " , as no contacts are exposed.

[Tonaci Tran]

Good tip.. as long as it is not "loose" and installed thanks Jarred

[Jarred Land]

yeah the biggest fear they have is loose batteries with contacts exposed floating around and touching something metal.

The recommendations and requirements still are a bit loose right now though, i imagine they will settle on something more "official" in the next coming months.. and we will do anything we can to help make it easy for you guys to comply.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

what about some sort of rubber airtight brick sleeve
this would keep all contacts tightly sealed up..

[dudeman]

How about a battery cover? Would something like this placate the airline/health-safety people?

edit--zak beat me to it.

[Brook Willard]

How about camera tape?

[PaulClements]

Storm, Pelican and the like need to be coming out with fire proof battery containers that can withstand a battery igniting and burning inside it. Could be a pretty penny for anyone that gets their battery case approved by the flight authorities.

Paul

[Stephen Williams]

Storm, Pelican and the like need to be coming out with fire proof battery containers that can withstand a battery igniting and burning inside it. Could be a pretty penny for anyone that gets their battery case approved by the flight authorities.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Take a look at this.

http://www.liposack.com

Stephen

[Jarred Land]

How about camera tape?

that actually is on there list of things to do.. so that might work.

Plastic Ziploc baggies, as usual, seem to be their favorite solution for everything.

[Brook Willard]

Most people don't know this, but Ziploc bags are actually designed to withstand the heat and pressure from a self-destructing battery.

[Pig]

This is all not as grave as it sounds.

In fact, some (most?) of these rules were already in effect, but they seem to be beefing up the actual enforcement with this new "edition" of rules. And they have, for the first time I think, separated Lithium Primary cells (Lithium Metal) from rechargeable Lithium Ion celled batteries, in their designation.

What they REALLY don't like is Lithium Metal Batteries (primary batteries, non-rechargeable); but these are NOT what we have with our cams, which are Lithium Ion Batteries.

The link most appropriate would probably be the OFFICIAL TSA link, which is:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm

...and some more tips, put out by the DOT:
http://safetravel.dot.gov/tips.html

According to that site, they are happy as long as the contacts aren't exposed (as Jarred mentioned), and all you'd need is a sleeve for the batteries.

RED (or anyone) could make a simple, and nice fitting $0.25 sleeve for the batts, and all worries go away.

[Evin Grant]

Is there any issue with leaving the Red batteries plugged into the charger when off like some AB units? For that matter I know the Anton Bauer Hytron 50s (Ni-mh) I have are supposed to live on the dual charger, trickle charging between uses. Is that a good idea for Li-Ion batteries too? This stuff is vague in the manual.

[Cail Young]

I know the Anton Bauer Hytron 50s (Ni-mh) I have are supposed to live on the dual charger, trickle charging between uses. Is that a good idea for Li-Ion batteries too? This stuff is vague in the manual.

My experience is that NiMH batteries like more frequent topping up than Li-Ions do - but this should be taken care of by the charging smarts - for example Apple's power management hardware allows continuous input power on their notebooks but only because the charging circuit will wait for the battery to drop to 95% before recharging to avoid stressing the chemistry. I would hope the RED charger does something similar.

[The Subsidiary]

what about some sort of rubber airtight brick sleeve
this would keep all contacts tightly sealed up.. For my sound gear, especially when I'm run and gun, I use Lithium NP-1 type batteries. I've always made little sleeves for them out of Mountain Bike inner tubes. I fuse one end inside out with a heat knife. They just slip over them and protect the contacts from discharging and also provide padding when sitting in the case. Since Red bricks are a little bigger, you could play around with narrow motorcycle tubes to make travel covers for them. I'm sure that someone can think of something better to use, but the tubes have always worked out pretty good for me, and it's nice to find a use for them after they've gotten too many snake bites to patch.

I don't like the idea of traveling with the batteries in a device, it puts a lot of stress on the battery compartment and whatever latch mechanism they have as well as the contacts.

We're scrambling trying to figure out what to do power wise on our overseas gig that's coming up. I'm sure a lot of you are as well. Good luck. :ranting2:

[PaulClements]

Hi Paul,

Take a look at this.

http://www.liposack.com

Stephen

Interesting Stephen, though isn't that more a preventative thing in that it stops anything from physically touching the battery? Say if for whatever bizzare reason a battery decides it's lost the will to live and chooses spontaneous combustion as it's preferred method of departure, would it be capable of stopping the spread of fire in an enclosed space such as an aeroplane?

That's more what I was getting at with a hard storm/peli case that would allow a battery to burn up inside of it without any external heating up or naked flames. I'm thinking something like a 2 inch wall of thermoplastic around a battery with some sort of u-bend or similar design to allow air to flow into the case to fuel the burn rather than the case exploding, yet stop any flames from exitting or the case as a whole becoming so hot that other items in the vacinity might catch fire from it.

Paul

[Noah Kadner]

No doubt the day is coming when passengers will be prohibited items on planes- that will solve the issue won't it?

Noah

[Jay A. Kelley]

Say if for whatever bizzare reason a battery decides it's lost the will to live and chooses spontaneous combustion as it's preferred method of departure,

Paul


I love this quote.. I feel this way on a number of occasions.

:)

Jay

[Larry McKee]

Is there any issue with leaving the Red batteries plugged into the charger when off like some AB units? For that matter I know the Anton Bauer Hytron 50s (Ni-mh) I have are supposed to live on the dual charger, trickle charging between uses. Is that a good idea for Li-Ion batteries too? This stuff is vague in the manual.

Trickle charge is not needed for Li-Ions. Lots of charging info on this site: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

[Anders Holck]

I wrote the IATA yesterday and just received a reply.
Here is my mail and the reply from IATA:


Hi and Happy new year.
As part of the professional Broadcast and filmmaking community I feel that the new restrictions regarding rechargeable Li-Ion batteries has caused enormous anxiety since the latest press releases.
While the current information at both http://www.iata.org and http://SafeTravel.dot.gov/ is an excellent guide for the average consumer, it's unfortunately very open to interpretations by the professional community.

Would it be possible to make a small guide for us? As rechargeable Li-Ions are the preferred choice of portable power for everyone in the broadcast business, we are very concerned what the new rules mean to us and how we avoid to misread them them.

Take for example a few standart travelling kits usually used by professionals:

1. Steadicam operator:
8-10 <100W/hr Li-Ion spare batteries.

2. EFP Camera man:
4-6 <90W/hr Li-Ion spare batteries.

3. Digital Cinematographer:
4-6 <150W/hr Li-Ion spare batteries.

- Would it be possible for you give exact comment on how each of these professionals should approach the new legislation?
- Does a professional charger using mounts with battery safety locks count as a device?
- How many spare <100 W/hr spare and mounted Li-ions (<8g Lithium content) can we bring abord? (Mounted on a charger, with taped terminals, mounted on a camcorder)
- Does having a notebook (68W/hr) and a mobile phone (10W/hr) subtract from the limit of Lithium content you can bring?

Hope to hear from you soon as the uncertainty is causing great concern at the moment.

And thank you for making flying as safe as possible :-)

Venlig hilsen / Best Regards
Anders Holck Petersen



Dear Mr. Petersen,

Thank you for taking the time to inquire with us.

The professional equipment you have mentioned is not covered by the wording used in sub-section 2.3 of the IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations. Table 2.3.A expressly refers to "Consumer Electronic Devices" and not to professional equipment.

Airlines typically permit professional equipment under the scope of these regulations to a certain degree, however, this is actually good will on the side of the airlines.

The "Large" batteries with an aggregate Lithium content of more than eight but less than 25 g are limited to a number of two spares, either as carry-on or on one's person. Whilst the exact number of smaller batteries is not regulated - this would also depend on the number of gadgets carried by the passenger - such number must be "within reason" which is, of course, subject to interpretation by the airlines and regulatory authorities of the states in question.

A battery charger which does NOT contain batteries and does not meet the classification criteria for any of the nine classes is not subject to the requirements of the IATA DGR.
However, I would not support considering a charger containing batteries a device (and subsequently being permitted within check-in baggage). A battery is either installed in the gadget or device it is intended to power or it must be considered a "spare" in the context of Table 2.3.A.

I would personally consider a number of three to four spare batteries as suitable, but one will have to look at this on a case by case basis. My best advice is to contact the airline or airlines in question and make sure that they will accept a given number of spare batteries on all sectors, and that the decision of the airline has also taken the regulatory approach by all states concerned and security requirements on transit airports and / or return legs (where applicable) into consideration.

Please don't hesitate to get back to us if you have further questions or if we may be of further assistance.

Best Regards,

Jens-Thomas Rueckert

Jens-Thomas RUECKERT
Manager Special Cargo Support
Phone +1 514 874 0202 Ext. 3247
Fax +1 514 874 2660

International Air Transport Association
800, Place Victoria, PO Box 113
Montreal, Quebec, Canada H4Z 1M1
www.iata.org

2008 IATA World Cargo Symposium

Focus on the Customer

3-6 March 2008 - Rome, Italy

http://www.iata.org/events/wcs08/index.htm

[HD Hildebrand]

I wrote the IATA yesterday and just received a reply.

Great work and info Anders. This query and attached response should be sent to a number of airlines to get their take. Also, perhaps sending it to Heathrow Airport in London (they seem to be the most troublesome to get anything through) would be good too.

[Storyline]

I just got off the phone with a TSA representative at their headquarters and what she said after speaking with her manager is that they need to clarify the rule. As it stands, in theory one should be able to carry on as many spare Li-Ion under 8 grams batteries as one would like, but the rule is so badly written that it does not explicity say so. She said that TSA agents may not understand anything other than "No more than 2 spare batteries" and take anything above that.

Until the rule is updated on the TSA website, her advice is to carry no more than 2 spares per person.

By the way, IDX has just written a document addressing the new TSA rule: they state the lithium content of each model and were kind enough to modify the document to put the Steadicam PowerCube model onto the list.

[Jarred Land]

great work guys...

the " subject to interpretation " scares me a bit.

[dino g]

how do i get home from Dubai with 8 RED batteries...anyone?

maybe ill leave them here and start a red rental house in the middle east, any investors?

[paul dudeck]

The rules will be changing again in October 2008.....and they will get tougher.....

[Zack Birlew]

You know, I didn't know batteries could just blow up on their own at all. I'm not sure if this story applies, but I used to gather up spare AA, AAA, C, ect. batteries together and put them in ziploc baggies and put them in a drawer when we needed more batteries or whatnot. Well, I don't know how it happened but one day I happen to get a whiff of something coming from one of the drawers and I open it up and, low and behold, the ziploc baggie is blackened from the inside out. Only a couple of batteries, a AA and a C-sized battery, were burnt up but we threw the whole bag away anyway for safety. I supposed that somehow they got ruffled around and clinked together and sparked or something. Since then, I've learned not to mix different battery sizes together. The AA's get their own baggie and the C's get theirs.

As far as bigger batteries goes, I'd hate to see a similar thing happen with batteries the size of bricks.

[Pig]

As far as bigger batteries goes, I'd hate to see a similar thing happen with batteries the size of bricks.

The battery chemistry will play a big part in how destructive a battery that is alight can be.

NiMH aren't that dangerous.
Li-Ion burn like crazy but can be extinguished.
Li metal burn like crazy and can't be easily extinguished.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

FWIW I think the answer is containerization that is tested and approved by the TSA and other authorities.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the incident history is for batteries causing fires or explosions on planes?

To be clear - this is not RED's responsibility. What I would like to know is why NAB or SMPTE or some other industry group was not on top of this issue months ago?

[Evin Grant]

I don't think there is any. It's a blanket rule aimed primarily at Laptop batteries. we are more or less collateral damage.

[Stephen Williams]

FWIW I think the answer is containerization that is tested and approved by the TSA and other authorities.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the incident history is for batteries causing fires or explosions on planes?

To be clear - this is not RED's responsibility. What I would like to know is why NAB or SMPTE or some other industry group was not on top of this issue months ago?

Hi Blair,

It's not a new issue there have been restrictions flying with Lithium Ion batteries for several years, seems most people just ignored it.

There are plenty of alternatives, the just weigh more.

Stephen

[Steve Freebairn]

what if red sold a "device" that would just tell you how much charge was left on them (just so it actually does something). Then you could install 8 batteries onto it and they would be "installed" in a device and not subject to the rule.

[chuck colburn]

Mayby someone should make explosion proof cases for batteries. This might make the FAA sleep better at night.

[PaulClements]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the incident history is for batteries causing fires or explosions on planes?

It all kicked off after that crate of laptop batteries caught fire in (I think) LAX. It was the beginning of the bad batch incident that saw millions recalled. Whilst it didn't happen on the plane itself it brought home that had it done it would've been fairly catastrophic I would suppose. As such the laws have been getting tighter and tighter, and saying it was a bad batch is useless given that what's to stop there being another bad batch. I think there is a bit of doubt over the type of battery since they might've been the li-pol one's and not the li-ion's. But frankly the airlines couldn't care less about the type.

I agree chuck about a bomb proof case, that's kinda what I was getting at earlier in the thread. Can't be that hard and you now have a quite substantial market for it.

Paul

[Pig]

Li-po is about as dangerous as li-ion.

I think I'll make some goldmount LiFEPO4 batts.

[paul dudeck]

Just for the record, there have been numerous cases of laptop and cell phone li ion batteries catching fire on a plane. This is not something new. This is why most of the laptop manufacturers have re-called their batteries, and in some cases more than once. There was an incident on the Vice Presidents plane that involved an ABC News crew a few years back and caused an emergency landing.....due to a re-chargeable li ion for a playback recorder being shorted and started to smoke. Not to mention the incident back in February of 2007 on the Jet Blue airplane that ended up burning up the entire overhead bin and the News camera that was in it....

Remember, li ion is the only rechargeable battery that has a flamable electrolyte.....

There is also another case of a film production truck in Chicago catching fire due to a li ion battery.......

[Ivan D. Young]

I think part of this is also the number of batteries out there. Most of these batteries have a chip or mechanism that prevents the battery from being explosive or flammable. IF someone was to actually remove the built in safeguards. The batteries could be made dangerous! With the availability of these batteries nearly every where, they could be made into a ready made weapon of terror. I have not heard of such activities yet, but nothing is out of the realm of possibility.
Also bear in mind, if the battery could burn hot enough it might start an aluminum fire. I also have not heard if this can be confirmed yet either.

It is a shame that technology that is built to make life better could or would be used for such things.

[Wes Printz]

so as not to double post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4920&page=3 # 25

[Michael Brennan]

The irony is that ni cads are capable of delivering loads of amps and creating a fire far, more readily than a lithium ion.
I raised this issue with CAA UK in the mid nineties when new companies
repaired and recelled nic cads by soldering individual terminals (weak joint) rather than spot welding. (strong joint)


When the joints broke a number of minor fires were started , fortunately all within sight of the cameraman.

Manufactures and after market re-cellers improved their techniques and the perceived threat went away.

That was until a pallet of watch batteries caught fire as it was waiting to be loaded into a commercial aircraft. There were obviously no fuses between each cell. Airport fire service took ages to control the fire.
Unfortunately this has prompted the latest ruling which treats all batteries the same, regardless of the quality of fusing or packaging.

Also it does not create a weight limit of lithium per plane, instead it creates a limit per passenger. We all know that they way around this is for a crew to spread the batteries between crew members.

A nonsense.

The issue with lithium seems to be the difficulty in fighting the fire once it starts rather than its propensity to cause fire, which I believe is lower than Nic Cads.



Lithuims are prone to burst into flames if they are being incorrectly charged, enough examples on Utube.

Was sitting next to my sound recordist on a small boat when I felt a burning sensation on my leg, it was a spare (home made) nicad celled battery pack for his mixer that he was carrying in his jacket, it had shorted and would have caused a fire or serious burns had he not acted quickly.

Haven't heard of any issues with pro Li ion batts except for the one mentioned din this thread on a Jet Blue flight. Any more details on that incidence?

I experienced a 100w halogen sungun being left connected to a battery and was accidentally switched on in the crew van and caused a fire....there's something else that should be checked before flight halogen sun guns:)




Mike Brennan

[dino g]

i am in frankfurt right now, making my way back to LAX from Dubai and I have 8 batteries and not once has anyone hassled me about them. so not sure what all the fuss is about.

[Wes Printz]

Dino, The Fuss is currently only the FAA rules at this point. It could be the ruling is so new, the gate agents may not know about it yet.

[Stephen Williams]

i am in frankfurt right now, making my way back to LAX from Dubai and I have 8 batteries and not once has anyone hassled me about them. so not sure what all the fuss is about.

Hi,

If there over 8 grammes and your caught you can expect 5 years in Prison and a $250,000 fine.

Perhaps your not bothered, I know I would be.

Stephen

[Storyline]

I flew SFO to LAX Sunday and LAX to SFO on Monday. There were no announcements, no printed advisories - nothing at United. Same goes with the TSA checkpoint. My checked baggage Storm case was inspected by the TSA, though, as the tag they left indicated. So - I would not put check LiIon batteries into checked luggage - carry on only.

The TSA updated their language on Friday to make it a little clearer that you can carry on as many LiIon below 8grams as you need. But it's still not crystal clear.

--Dan

[paul dudeck]

Janury 9, 2008
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - After a journalist's LG Electronics Inc. laptop reportedly exploded in flames, the company said Wednesday it was investigating.
"LG Electronics is collaborating with LG Chem, the battery maker, to investigate and determine the cause of the problem, as under normal usage conditions, this type of problem should not occur," LG said in a statement.
South Korean media reported that a laptop belonging to a South Korean journalist burst into flames Tuesday after smoke began to emerge from it.
No injuries were reported.
LG said it was "in possession of the equipment involved" and would "work with a third-party organization to provide an outside, independent assessment."
Both LG and LG Chem Ltd. are members of the LG Group of companies.
"We rigorously test our products not only for functionality and design but safety as well," LG said in the statement.
Kim Ji-hey, an LG Electronics spokeswoman, said the company was not yet releasing details on what model laptop was involved.

[Stephen Williams]

Fletcher Chicago has a LiIon fire:

http://www.reelchicago.com/story.cfm?StoryID=1794

[Anders Holck]

Apperently not a Li-Ion, but a Li-On according to the article :-)

It states the burned pack was a 10 pound 21AH pack, wonder what brand makes those? It's a substancial amout of WHrs at 30v...