Scarlet Speculation

[Brent J. Craig]

In case you missed it, Jim has announced today (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7183) that the rumoured Red mini will be called the Scarlet and we'll learn more at NAB.

So... let the games begin. What do you hope it will do? What features should it have? What should it cost? What cameras will it compete with (and blow out of the water)? There are still several months before NAB - maybe the best suggestions we make will be incorporated into the final product if they aren't already.


I'll start:

Scarlet should be very small. Not Canon Elph small, but smaller than an HVX200. Coat-pocket sized would be awesome.

It should record at least 1080p HD at various framerates.

It should give you the option for how compressed the video will be - low compression for broadcast/film output, more compression for budgetary or record time considerations.

It shouldn't record to tape. Tape is dead. Red One has proven that CompactFlash is a viable recording medium. Scarlet should record to CF and something else such as an internal HD.

It should be ready to shoot out of the box. Built-in lens (perhaps interchangeable), flip-out monitor, basic mics, onboard battery.

The lens should go wide. The biggest problem with small cameras is that the lens is no wider than a 32-ish in 35mm.

Although I love the select focus of the Red One, I don't think we can expect anything but a small chip in Scarlett. You just can't hit the right price point and size with a big chip. (Prove me wrong, Jim!)

What else?...

[number6]

A handheld stock, like on a slingshot, with a Scarlett docking point on each fork. Internally the slingshot handheld (or with an extender to make it into a mono or tripod) device has connections between the two cameras to synch them so they focus individually to shoot a scene ultra-wide, or to focus them together to create a 3D picture. That's all for the moment.

[Elizabeth]

Other than size and weight, the Scarlet features that would be most important for my intended uses are recording to a compact flash card or drive, capacity for sound input, and interchangeable lens mount. Mounting points on the top, bottom and either side would also be an interesting option.

If the RED TEAM are able to do all this and still fit a 2K sensor into a nice small package for under $10,000 ... now that would be a remarkable feat.

[Peter McCully]

Other than size and weight, the Scarlet features that would be most important for my intended uses are recording to a compact flash card or drive, capacity for sound input, and interchangeable lens mount. Mounting points on the top, bottom and either side would also be an interesting option.

If the RED TEAM are able to do all this and still fit a 2K sensor into a nice small package for under $10,000 ... now that would be a remarkable feat.

How about under $5000?

[Brent J. Craig]

How about under $5000?

That's my guess too. $4995

I have been rethinking what I said about tape being dead. What I meant was that mini-DV and HDV is dead (or should be). If the Red geniuses can figure out a way to put 10 or 20 minutes of good-looking not horribly compressed HD on a standard mini-DV tape then that would make life easier for a lot of uses. Mini-DV tape is an inexpensive, universally-available storage medium. Create a recording format that makes use of its data capacity but gives nicer pictures and you're golden.

CF is great, but for run and gun documentary-style shooting the download time would kill you.

[Erik Greensmith]

But 20 minutes on a MiniDV shouldn't be any easier than the same amount with light compression on the very, very rapidly approaching 16GB CF cards

[Erik Greensmith]

And don't we already have an official speculation thread?

[Stephen Gentle]

I'd say it's probably going to be a 2K resolution, 16mm or 35mm sized sensor. It'll probably record REDCODE to CF.

And if it's under $5000 (although I doubt it), you can count me in!

[JustMe]

Were looking at an online marketing ploy that distracts users from the RED issues that are ongoing

[Erik Greensmith]

:huh: Why so down on lil' Scarlet?

[JustMe]

the thrill passed, Been on Jims roller coaster before.
Things change

[JustMe]

I dont want speculation I want cold hard facts, red one changed to the point it not what I want or was.

[Erik Greensmith]

You DON'T want what the Red is now? How could you want it before?

[number6]

I dont want speculation I want cold hard facts, red one chnaged to the point it not what I want or was.

The loan didn't go through, huh....? I know the feeling... I know the feeling...

[JustMe]

AK-HC930
U.S. List Price $70,000.00.

Still works and still is being used, little hype. Works in workflows.

[JustMe]

number 6 my boxen(computers) cost more, compaired to one red.
You are talking out your arse

[number6]

number 6 my boxen(computers) cost more, compaired to one red.
You are talking out your arse

Then come clean with what's bothering you. Stop all the speculation.

[Erik Greensmith]

Then come clean with what's bothering you. Stop all the speculation.

Ha! Slice.....

[JustMe]

OK the Hype.
Red has not:
Changed the world, they are not the second coming.
They have a cool Video camera with bad workflow choices.

[Erik Greensmith]

Now you're just gunning for a flame war, but we're all grownups here, right.....

[number6]

OK the Hype.
Red has not:
Changed the world, they are not the second coming.
They have a cool Video camera with bad workflow choices.

I would just say, be patient. All these things will come to pass and will sort themselves out. As for changing the world, it won't be the camera. It can be the you's and the me's using our REDS, be it the RED one or the Scarlet who must be responsible for that.

As for workflow bottlenecks, those are being improved as we speak.

You may be right in your assessment. I'm just saying it's too soon to decide. A year or two or three from now we may all look back and say the promise was not fulfilled. For now, though, I'm too excited to see any emptiness in the glass. I'm looking at the tap of creativity in front of me to keep the glass full.

Actually, i think someone has already said this, so I am probably plagiarizing someone standing along the Ganges or the Yalu at this very moment who said this very same thing yesterday.:biggrin:

[JustMe]

Erik,
No I am not, RED has no set workflow at this time, its all based on a few codecs that are either in BETA or not released

[JustMe]

I would just say, be patient. All these things will come to pass and will sort themselves out. As for changing the world, it won't be the camera. It can be the you's and the me's using our REDS, be it the RED one or the Scarlet who must be responsible for that.

As for workflow bottlenecks, those are being improved as we speak.

You may be right in your assessment. I'm just saying it's too soon to decide. A year or two or three from now we may all look back and say the promise was not fulfilled. For now, though, I'm too excited to see any emptiness in the glass. I'm looking at the tap of creativity in front of me to keep the glass full.

Actually, i think someone has already said this, so I am probably plagiarizing someone standing along the Ganges or the Yalu at this very moment who said this very same thing yesterday.:biggrin:

Like that post :D

[Erik Greensmith]

This camera was a chrome-y CAD drawing a year and a half ago. The set workflow WORKS just fine and if BETA means something is consistently updated, then the internet is still in beta.

[Brent J. Craig]

And don't we already have an official speculation thread?

Actually I started this one first. It was so early that the Scarlet section hadn't been created so it ended up in off-topic until the mods were able to move it. Check the timestamps on the first posts. I'm too early for my own good!

[Brent J. Craig]

But 20 minutes on a MiniDV shouldn't be any easier than the same amount with light compression on the very, very rapidly approaching 16GB CF cards

Yes, but can you buy 16GB CF cards for less than $5 anywhere in the world? Do you have to stop shooting and download a DV tape to a computer before you can continue?

That is why I reconsidered my tape is dead comment. As inexpensive, universally available permanent storage it is actually pretty good.

[number6]

That is why I reconsidered my tape is dead comment. As inexpensive, universally available permanent storage it is actually pretty good.

I agree with one exception... I have over a hundred hours of mini DV tapes laying around with footage on them. And unless I spend lots of time cataloging each tape, I have to go through each and every one of them real time to find the scene I may or may not remember I have. Computerized search is just more efficient IMO.

[planet e]

the thrill passed, Been on Jims roller coaster before.
Things change

i don't understand why the disillusioned waste their breath on reduser.net then. if you're done, then stick a fork in it and be done and stop pissing on other peoples' dreams. don't you have something to go shoot with your $70,000 camera? sheesh. if i owned a $70,000 camera, i wouldn't be wasting my time on internet forums for a camera that i don't believe in. when i get my $30K cameras, i will only hang around this joint to pick up a few post-processing workflow ideas an track the occasional new developments, and then i am soooo gone.

[Clint Johnson]

Erik,
No I am not, RED has no set workflow at this time, its all based on a few codecs that are either in BETA or not released

If there is "no set workflow" then how are they making feature films with it?

Just because there isn't a specific, singular workflow that you want doesn't mean that there is no workflow.

[dVonAllmen]

Sorry, CrewPix.com, I gotta say I'm with number6 on this one.

If we're going for small, then anything which takes up space better have a damn good reason and I think most would rather have a hard drive than mini DV (or a bigger hard drive than both).

Give me a hard drive and either Firewire 3200 or USB 3. With download speeds of half a gig a second I don't think stopping occasionally to dump is that bad of a thing considering the time savings in post.

[Brent J. Craig]

...I don't think stopping occasionally to dump is that bad of a thing considering the time savings in post.

...except when the documentary subject you have been shooting for 2 years finally opens up and spills their emotional story to the camera, and your hard drive is out of space.

[Mark Crabtree]

My only suggestion for Scarlet is to allow Red One owners/reservation holders first shot at reserving Scarlet. Perhaps email us with an offer to reserve before it opens to the general public or just before NAB. This could be a sort of reward for Red's first supporters. How about it, Jim?

[Matt Gottshalk]

...except when the documentary subject you have been shooting for 2 years finally opens up and spills their emotional story to the camera, and your hard drive is out of space.

Then maybe this PARTICULAR camera may not be the one for that job.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I doubt the $5k mark will be met... I'd think more like $8k and with no lenses... and like others have said more of a S16 like Red is more of a S35.

Then Red One's body can be slightly more than x2 the cost and the packages will be significantly more affordable than the One's packages. Then it would be an amazing camera that would fit the bill for many productions while not detracting from the productions that would be a better fit for One.


My only suggestion for Scarlet is to allow Red One owners/reservation holders first shot at reserving Scarlet. Perhaps email us with an offer to reserve before it opens to the general public or just before NAB. This could be a sort of reward for Red's first supporters. How about it, Jim?

This is completely ludicrous... I say no way Jose to dat. :biggrin:

[Nathan Garofalos]

If Jim can keep the price of a camera between 4-5 thousand, I will be one of the first reservation holders without a doubt. I'd like to see the camera have interchangeable lenses in a pl format and record to CF cards and/or a hard drive. It would be nice to have a 35mm sensor, but I doubt that will be in the camera even though it would be nice; so I bet it will be a s16 format with 2k projection. It would be cool if the camera was available by October of this year or even sooner. It would be nice to have a high quality camera that is affordable for the student filmmaker...

[Lexicon]

My only suggestion for Scarlet is to allow Red One owners/reservation holders first shot at reserving Scarlet. Perhaps email us with an offer to reserve before it opens to the general public or just before NAB. This could be a sort of reward for Red's first supporters. How about it, Jim?

I'd let the reservation holders get first shot at it. They clearly desire something with RED technology and for some who have bought RED One, from what they have said, the camera was a bit more than they really needed and it broke their finances but at the time it was what was available so they went with it. If Jim wants to (I'm just being hypothetical here and not pushing/suggesting he do this) he can have some kind of RED trade-in for Scarlet where current owners (those who actually HAVE the RED One) can sell the One (and accessories if Scarlet uses radically different ones) to another owner/rental company/studio/whatever through RED and have their camera checked for a price similar to what is going on now with resale and have the leftover money from the sale put towards a Scarlet. Feature work is not a thing that everyone can or should be able to do without putting in their time and earning their way into it but RED has unfortunately given many the idea that they are now working in the big leagues simply because they scored a RED camera (or are getting one) which is a big mistake. Assuming Scarlet fits into the range of professional camcorders that are used for documentaries, broadcast, commercials and some low budget features, it's perfect for a lot of work that people here have been doing and are capable of.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I want an HVX trade in... is that possible :sarcasm:

[Stuart English]

AK-HC930
U.S. List Price $70,000.00.

Still works and still is being used, little hype. Works in workflows.

That is a studio camera. So no workflow.

[Brent J. Craig]

Scarlet also has to come with a lens with a real focus ring. Sony and Panasonic use motor-driven focus on their prosumer cameras because it allows them to make much cheaper lenses where the focus doesn't actually track while zooming.

These fake focus rings make it so you cannot do accurate and repeatable focus pulls on their cameras.

[JustMe]

That is a studio camera. So no workflow.

Going to ignore that......

[Yannick Hagman]

3-4k would be a revolution. And the money I would spend on something that isn't prosumer.

[Jaron Berman]

So just food for thought here, but nobody is even sure this thing will be a motion camera! If you look at the market now, there ARE compact 1080p cameras that shoot to solid state, and have variable framerates.

What doesn't exist now is any sort of even relatively decent P&S still camera. We know this thing isn't going to compete with the R1. Perhaps it's a compact still camera that uses the 4k mysterium sensor, like a digital Contax G2. That was a professional cam, just stuck with 35mm still film. Use it to meter and frame out your shots, etc... and perhaps it has a "movie mode" that'll buy you those special shots you couldn't get otherwise. For the real deal, you shoot using a full size camera.

[Kholi Hicks]

Has anyone speculated that Juan from Reel-Stream is now on the RED team? I've been gone a while, but still wonderin if this is where Hydra for the HVX200 went.

Maybe?

As well, someone speculate up a release-date and cost. xD

[dvpixl]

I think there is a reason why Jim is offering Scarlet to reservation holders first. It's probably a camera not meant to be used on it's own but as a supplement to the RED ONE.

What else could-will not compete or replace the RED- mean?

[Nathan Garofalos]

What do you mean a supplement to the RED ONE, like a sync camera, or a crash cam? I dont know what you mean?

[Kholi Hicks]

I think there is a reason why Jim is offering Scarlet to reservation holders first. It's probably a camera not meant to be used on it's own but as a supplement to the RED ONE.

What else could-will not compete or replace the RED- mean?

It means that it's not going to compete with or replace the RED, exactly what it says?

Sean R stated, in another thread, that these are two COMPLETELY different cameras, so that's enough to suggest that it won't be replacing anything that RED ONE has to offer.

[dvpixl]

exaaactly. wow. im already tired from all this. wuts the use? Was it stated that we will know exactly what it is at NAB 08? or another clue?

[sparkhope]

...except when the documentary subject you have been shooting for 2 years finally opens up and spills their emotional story to the camera, and your hard drive is out of space.

Huh??? Tapes over hard drive? CrewPix... you know tapes have been known to run out as well. Besides, Hard drive solutions will more than likely provide for daisy-chain configs and as someone mentioned in another post, RED should simply make a multi-slotted CF module that could if nothing else provide concatenation (and who knows maybe even mirroring)

The tape argument really only holds for mini-dv & dv...if your looking at 2k or 4k, the drive solution is the only answer otherwise the recorder would eclipse the camera in price.

:detective2:

[sparkhope]

If Jim can keep the price of a camera between 4-5 thousand, I will be one of the first reservation holders without a doubt. I'd like to see the camera have interchangeable lenses in a pl format and record to CF cards and/or a hard drive. It would be nice to have a 35mm sensor, but I doubt that will be in the camera even though it would be nice; so I bet it will be a s16 format with 2k projection. It would be cool if the camera was available by October of this year or even sooner. It would be nice to have a high quality camera that is affordable for the student filmmaker...


4-5k? no way. I'm thinking the pocket cam is going to be 15k fully loaded (with a fixed lens) - Maybe 10k if lens is not included.

[dvpixl]

lets not set ourselves up for disappointment. Once it comes out though I'm sure everyone will want one.

[JustMe]

we have all set ourselves up for disappointment just going by the rad mantra

[dvpixl]

yea. true. I'm only saying that as a way of avoiding the fact that Scarlet will not be what we want it to be.

but I hope it is what we need and dont know that we need it yet.

[redman]

i agree, I think that Juan did move on to Red and is probobly implementing some of his work he did with reel-stream.So maybe scarlet is basically a sensor head with a nikon or pl-mount and a ethernet connection in the back, like the si 2k mini.http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/4052_1199597075.png










mystery as in mysterium

[Michael Schrengohst]

In another thread someone said Juan is NOT working for RED.
Regardless, the RED "Pocket" camera needs to be something
beyond the GO-HD from www.aiptek.com - I have/had one
it is a steaming pile of shit. I gave it to my skateboarder son to play with.
RED needs to having something beyond this to protect it's
reputation it is building up. I would prefer a Nikon or Canon mount
as most fixed lenses with cheaper cameras are not that great.
Look how many shooters will buy something like a Redrock or Letus
to get DOF using Nikon or Canon lenses.

[Nathan Garofalos]

In another thread someone said Juan is NOT working for RED.
Regardless, the RED "Pocket" camera needs to be something
beyond the GO-HD from www.aiptek.com - I have/had one
it is a steaming pile of shit. I gave it to my skateboarder son to play with.
RED needs to having something beyond this to protect it's
reputation it is building up. I would prefer a Nikon or Canon mount
as most fixed lenses with cheaper cameras are not that great.
Look how many shooters will buy something like a Redrock or Letus
to get DOF using Nikon or Canon lenses.

That is a good point, I have a friend who is guilty of buying a Redrock and a couple of nikon lenses. If Scarlet was nikon lens compatible, I would be thrilled. I have a few DSLR lenses I could use!!!