The Scarlet Speculation Thread!

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Ok, somebody had to start this thing! I know there has been lots of talk before about the potential specs, but now that there is an official forum for this little gem, why not put all of that stuff here and keep things neat and orderly?

I'll start...

If Scarlett has a fixed lens on it... PLEASE make it a decent lens with minimal CA issues (both longitudinal and lateral). If the camera doesn't have a 35mm size sensor, please make the camera body 35mm adapter friendly. Built in image flipping would also be great for those who don't want to loose light using these "flip modules".

RAW recording is the new standard so thats a must. Dare I say it... If you could match what Hydra from Reel Stream would have been... :) That would be very killer (for those who don't know, Hydra was going to offer RAW 14 bit linear 4:4:4 2k plus variable frame rates up to 60fps). If Reel Stream was able to mod an existing camera like that being the tiny company they were, imagine what RED could do with is bigger resources? Seriously. I own an Andromeda camera and almost everything is really done inside a small mac mini, if I were crazy enough to try and rip out the DVX's parts not being used (ie. DSP, tape mechanism, etc..) I bet I could fit most of the mac mini into the empty space left behind!

CF card media is also on my wish list...

Anyone else?

[Erik Greensmith]

OK, I say we begin by figuring out what we WANT it to be and then can relish/lament our rightness/unrealism. But it'll be FUN.

This is what I would cause me to explode if it turned out to be real:


-Ergonomical, palm-fitting form factor with compensation for second-hand support

- 4K! If that's too nuts, 2K from a mini-Mysterium flat sensor and RAW as hell, baby

- Interchangeable lens mount with a customizable locking ring for various brands of SLR glass and s4/i and all that PLUS a rock-solid Red lens (as usual) that should be a one-size-fits for most people

- 64 - 128GB solid-state flash pack for recording, hot-swappable and with CF option

- 5" or greater LCD, 1080p, no EVF as it's a waste of space on a non-shoulder cam

- It's a run-and-gun deal so maybe forgo monitor output in favor of more audio IO (on the bottom please) and LEMO power for lights and other stuff

That's all for now. This is just the primer, of course, we can now delve into all the extrenuous and likely impossible specifics of a roxor back-pocket camera.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Scarlet=ex-Hydra?

(You put "speculation" in the title, not me!)

:)

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Here's a thought...

Red one is 35mm...

Perhaps Scarlet is meant to be 16mm 2k single chip? I'd take 16mm any day over these little 1/3 inch 3 chip cameras.

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Scarlet=ex-Hydra?

(You put "speculation" in the title, not me!)

:)

Who knows.... Juan hasn't said who bought the Hydra/Andromeda technologies.

BUT, it does make you wonder. Juan proved you could make very low cost RAW cinema cameras. When I shoot, I record files that are just RAW sensor data. I have to render to see anything (even low res previews), but given the price, its hard to complain man. Maybe RED is taking the same approach, but building the same type of thing from the ground up, and making it record compressed low res proxies at the same time for quicker editing, etc...

[Erik Greensmith]

I made a Bolex analogy earlier was proud of myself a little. A digital Bolex would be EXACTLY what our uber-tech industry needs, a run-and-gun, dead simple camera that you can trust to hold your pictures safely without huddling 'round a monitor and with only the controls you need.

[JustMe]

Who knows.... Juan hasn't said who bought the Hydra/Andromeda technologies.

BUT, it does make you wonder. Juan proved you could make very low cost RAW cinema cameras. When I shoot, I record files that are just RAW sensor data. I have to render to see anything (even low res previews), but given the price, its hard to complain man. Maybe RED is taking the same approach, but building the same type of thing from the ground up, and making it record compressed low res proxies at the same time for quicker editing, etc...

Or Red is just using us to build the features we want via threads like this, and they really dont know what they will build?

[Brent J. Craig]

I don't think a high-end prosumer camera would be very successful outputting RAW.

Is Scarlet a B-camera/documentary camera or a wedding shooter special?

[Brent J. Craig]

Or Red is just using us to build the features we want via threads like this.

We can only hope so!

[Erik Greensmith]

It'd be a huge bummer if you couldn't use both the Red and Scarlet on the same show, with the same workflow. That means RAW.

[JustMe]

but RED killed, for some reason, its HDSDI outs

[Erik Greensmith]

Time for HDMI to rise from the ashes......

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I don't think a high-end prosumer camera would be very successful outputting RAW.

Successful as in??? What? Sales? Image performance?

[JustMe]

I would hope its a 2k RedHead with Fiber or Gige myself

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

My humble recommendation would be that RED take a closer look at the Hydra (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=92075) thread at DVXUser .

It's quite big but very indicative of what people actually want from a under 10k camera.

I particularly liked Barry Green's dream-cam outline - the "Green One" :).

I'm a under 10k guy natively, but this RED One thing is making me "suicidal" :blink:

Scarlet should definitely have S16-sized-sensor and RAW to be really considered a red-mini [I]cinema camera.

Juz my 2c.

P.S. If Juan has joined RED, at least he went to the right place.

[Lexicon]

It's gonna have a 16mm Mysterium-based sensor. Powered by hand crank. Records in RAW to SDHC cards. :clown2: Oh and it's gonna have this really cool RED shredding gadget built into the top that helps you shred food for between take snack making.

[Erik Greensmith]

If Red were really on their game they'd make Scarlet a wooden picture frame and you could just look through and record what you saw into RAM, or Really Awesome Memory, i.e. in your MIND!

[Chris Nuzzaco]

If Red were really on their game they'd make Scarlet a wooden picture frame and you could just look through and record what you saw into RAM, or Really Awesome Memory, i.e. in your MIND!

Will it be powered by acid, LSD, or some new mixture of opieds?:bleh:

[Erik Greensmith]

Will it be powered by acid, LSD, or some new mixture of opieds?:bleh:

Substance D from A Scanner Darkly, to be precise.

[Paul Hazlett]

I have inside information....inside my head that is.

Ok here is Scarlett, in a RED shell.

1920x1080p able to do 720 and 480 HD and SD(but iffy on the SD)

Will have a standard lens that is easily removed or converted for use with
Red Rock or other 35 adapter or Red makes its own adapter.....oh yeah.

swing out 3.5 LCD with some focus assists and an eye piece.

Records to cards or out firewire? SDI? SATA? to drive such as firestore.

records redcode.

Read it and rejoice Reddys

[Lexicon]

I don't think a high-end prosumer camera would be very successful outputting RAW.

Is Scarlet a B-camera/documentary camera or a wedding shooter special?

The wedding shooters will probably lust for it and try to get it just as there are people here getting REDs who wouldn't normally have any contact with or business using that kind of technology at their end of the industry (if they are even part of it). I can without a doubt see it being used for documentaries and nature stuff though I honestly think RED syndrome (in this case Scarlet Fever) will flare up again and we'll be seeing people doing what they did with their RED One purchases though I haven't a shit's idea of what the price is going to be. I'm thinking around 10K would be ideal though given the fact that it's Jim Jannard and the RED Army behind it, I'm possibly a few K over. If it's going to be what I think it is (jokes aside), then it is exactly what I want for my own use but I'll wait until we know more to give any deep thoughts about it. NAB is certainly going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to hearing all about Jim's latest kick to the groin of the establishment.

[Erik Greensmith]

This is what I would cause me to explode if it turned out to be real:


-Ergonomical, palm-fitting form factor with compensation for second-hand support

- 4K! If that's too nuts, 2K from a mini-Mysterium flat sensor and RAW as hell, baby

- Interchangeable lens mount with a customizable locking ring for various brands of SLR glass and s4/i and all that PLUS a rock-solid Red lens (as usual) that should be a one-size-fits for most people

- 64 - 128GB solid-state flash pack for recording, hot-swappable and with CF option

- 5" or greater LCD, 1080p, no EVF as it's a waste of space on a non-shoulder cam

- It's a run-and-gun deal so maybe forgo monitor output in favor of more audio IO (on the bottom please) and LEMO power for lights and other stuff

That's all for now. This is just the primer, of course, we can now delve into all the extrenuous and likely impossible specifics of a roxor back-pocket camera.

[Erik Greensmith]

Actually, now that I think about, D-link HDSDI 2K might be pretty roxor.

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I have inside information....inside my head that is.

Ok here is Scarlett, in a RED shell.

1920x1080p able to do 720 and 480 HD and SD(but iffy on the SD)

Will have a standard lens that is easily removed or converted for use with
Red Rock or other 35 adapter or Red makes its own adapter.....oh yeah.

swing out 3.5 LCD with some focus assists and an eye piece.

Records to cards or out firewire? SDI? SATA? to drive such as firestore.

records redcode.

Read it and rejoice Reddys

That sounds a lot like an HVX200 minus the DVCPROHD codec :bleh:

Multi format and resolution would be killer though.

[Paul Hazlett]

HVX200 is only 720 and pixel shifts. I think the ol' girl is going to be true
1920 1080 progressive with variable frame rates like 24p and the like

[Jaron Berman]

I would imagine that they could go 2 routes with the sensor -

1: Use the same sensor as R1, but change the downstream electronics. This would make the chip itself cheaper - economies of scale - for both R1 and Scarlet. Good thing about this route is that they already know everything about the chip and how to implement it, which saves R&D and coding time. If it outputs windowed 2k (or 1080p) from the chip, chances are they could streamline the electronics, the cooling fins, etc... such that they could shrink the whole thing down.

2: Use an off-the-shelf sensor and incorporate it into their processing pipeline. On the positive side, the chips would be in FAR larger quantities than mysterium, so the per chip price even for RED's small volumes would be very good. The downside is that they would have to work to implement it, as opposed to going with a known system. Not insurmountable.

[Erik Greensmith]

[QUOTE=
2: Use an off-the-shelf sensor and incorporate it into their processing pipeline. On the positive side, the chips would be in FAR larger quantities than mysterium, so the per chip price even for RED's small volumes would be very good. The downside is that they would have to work to implement it, as opposed to going with a known system. Not insurmountable.[/QUOTE]


As long as it's flat and over S16 size I don't think image characteristics should be too different from the R1 regardless of chip maker.

[JustMe]

The lens is not fixed.

dude you have my attention

[Carl Larsen]

My wish list:

2K Redcode Raw
S16 Chip
10x Red Lens Standard w interchangeable Brigger mount for SLR and B4
About the size of a DVX
Record to CF Card or red drive - no tape!
720P Viewfinder and LCD w magic focus
HDSDI and HDMI outputs
Remote Control for live production, iris, focus pulling, Painting LUT's on set.
Sicko low light performance
$7500

[Erik Greensmith]

Sicko low light performance is right! This should be natural light friendly to the max.

[Stephen Gentle]

As I said on the other speculation thread; I'm hoping for 2K on a 35mm sensor, recording REDCODE to CF. Although a 16mm sensor wouldn't be bad.

I really doubt that it will capture SD, but it may do 1080p.

[Matt Gottshalk]

Global shutter, NOT a rolling shutter.

[Jaron Berman]

My wish list:

2K Redcode Raw
S16 Chip
10x Red Lens Standard w interchangeable Brigger mount for SLR and B4
About the size of a DVX
Record to CF Card or red drive - no tape!
720P Viewfinder and LCD w magic focus
HDSDI and HDMI outputs
Remote Control for live production, iris, focus pulling, Painting LUT's on set.
Sicko low light performance
$7500


Probably won't go backwards and do tape, especially if "compact" is the name of the game. And they already have a set of software designed for their data workflow. I am curious to know what market or market hybrid this is intended to fill.

As for the finder/LCD - most compact shooters use the LCD for flexibility and stability. I'd imagine they could cut cost/complexity by only having the LCD BUT making it daylight viewable like the gorgeous flip-out on the EX1.

If it indeed is a removable lens camera, then the definition of "pocket" is certainly loose. C-mount lenses, B4 or SLR lenses?

[Chris Nuzzaco]

How about small enough to fit in the largest pocket of a Porta Brace camera bag?

You know, the pocket you normally put that Varicam into...

:P

[Bing Bailey]

Yes is sounds like a cam that'll cover lower end indies and broadcast built on the same technologies is the way it would be done. they've already been creating all the infrastructure. why try and reinvent the wheel

same sensor but hitting 2k or 1080p with up to 120fps that only records to CF and will take a 35mm or B4 lens from the get go.

[Lexicon]

Who's your source?:detective2:

Man oh man I hope your right....

Well Haakon knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who happened to be coming out of the Men's bathroom at the RED development lab when Jim walked by the door with some guy named Jarred and the two of them were discussing it while engaging in a rapid fire game of Rock, Paper, Scissors as they moved down the hallway....:clown2:

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but...

Is there even confirmation that this is a MOTION camera?

I mean, RED is a digital cinema company, and DSLRs are generally doing what they ought to be, quality-wise, so it would be strange for them to make a DLSR. But still, I thought I'd point out that there's no explicit indication that it will be a motion cam.

[Ethan Cooper]

what are the chances they have this thing boxed up and ready to buy at NAB?
________
LINCOLN CONTINENTAL MARK VII SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Lincoln_Continental_Mark_VII)

[Brook Willard]

what are the chances they have this thing boxed up and ready to buy at NAB?

With such a community- and feedback-driven development process? Zero.

[hunterrichards]

How about a motion picture camera !BUT! in an dslr formfactor with LCD on the back for menus and information/control, but an optical viewfinder (I think some newer Dslrs can have live pre-view and optical viewing at the same time)

When I take photos with my dslr, I imagine just capturing what I see through the viewfinder, Dont need No LCD!. Just use the built-in exposure meter and capture. Check the histogram and fire off 10-bit 1080/24p to CF. dont need 4k. Also please include an hdmi out. You could even use AF features by halfway pressing the shutter release.


Thanks

Oh and can you have a prototype built for NAB 08'?

Thanks again.

Oh and one more thing, please include an APS-C size sensor. With an integrated universal lens mount for nikon & canon eos.

[Casey Green]

I sure hope it's 4K. With a small form factor, it could really compete with the SI-2K for 3D work.

By the way, interesting timing for this name/topic being released...

[Wayne Morellini]

Is this the camera designed by Rainer Orz that designed the old Drake camera?

We have speculated about this pocket Red for an while at dvinfo, and I am most enthusiastic to find details and about pre-ordering.

It will be interesting to see how it stacks up, I have been eyeing the Altasens based Sumix camera (but this is more an hobbyist DIY) and HDMI solutions. I even have been considering doing my own camera, as we used to do at dvinfo. There has been some very interesting alternative lens and imaging technologies announced in recent years.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well I will assume they're certainly exploiting their existing REDCode, REDCine, REDAlert, etc infrastructure. That's a given.

According to Jim they're using a proprietary chip. That means they're making it themselves. That means they're going to be producing a sizeable quantity of wafers with defects. With no other products I assume the REDMini will be built on the assumption that they can use defective Myseterium chips which don't pass 4k QA. (Or at least I think they can do that, I know you can do that with some other chips but I don't know if sensors are an all or nothing sort of deal.) Anyway that means same mysterium sensor but smaller than s35mm which means probably s16mm.

RED is producing economy glass which I'm sure they would love to see an even larger market for. So probably the same lens mounts with PL being stock. They're also making their lenses in somewhat odd focal lengths which match up with S16mm sizings. Again indicating a plan to re-use with a S16 camera.

CF card obviously.

HDMI out.

Fast Reset (not global) shutter since it's based on the mysterium sensor.

They'll want to re-use all of their DSP research that they put into RED so I would again point towards the exact same sensor design.

Two Mini-XLRs.

1080p out of mini BNCRs.

Approximately 3.5 pounds.
7.5" x 4.25" x 3.75"

$8,500

[Zak Forsman]

this is absolutely the news i've been waiting for. guys that know me and the sort of filmmaking i do, can imagine how appealing a small professional camera would be to my brand of filmmaking. i have really high hopes and expectations for Scarlet. so I'm hoping for a professional digital cinema camera no bigger than an HV20 with 35mm adapter. if it's that, 2K at a minimum and under $7500, i'll buy three. very excited filmmaker here.
:love: :love: :love:

[Patrick Tresch]

And why not a 35mm sized sensor downscaled to 2k RAW!!!

Please, not tooooo small!
Bollex or z1 size would be great.

I thought christmas allready past!

Patrick

[Rob Lohman]

We have speculated about this pocket Red for an while at dvinfo, and I am most enthusiastic to find details and about pre-ordering.

Hey Wayne, welcome to reduser! Come see us at NAB '08 for the details etc.!


It will be interesting to see how it stacks up, I have been eyeing the Altasens based Sumix camera (but this is more an hobbyist DIY) and HDMI solutions. I even have been considering doing my own camera, as we used to do at dvinfo. There has been some very interesting alternative lens and imaging technologies announced in recent years.

As Jim would say it's going to be BAD ASS :)

[sceneeast]

You can count me in at NAB 08 and my ordering of Scarlet.:love:

What will Scarlet's logo look like?

Bob

[rupertmac]

Can we maybe built up everyone's wish list and see what happens

My vote:

2K Redcode Raw
S16 Chip
Factory fitted, interchangeable Brigger mounts for SLR and B4,
About the size of a DVX, (smaller would be good) mounts on 15mm rails
Record to CF Card (Dual slots)
720P Viewfinder and HDMI out
2x Full sized Audio XLR in, with gain pots/ 5 pin XLR audio out
TC In / Out on full sized bnc
Lemo or 4 pin xlr for standard 12v power in.
Bluetooth iPhone remote control for live production, iris, focus pulling, Painting LUT's on set.
Sicko low light performance (min 500iso)
$7500

I know I'm going to get flamed for this bit.... Autofocus would come in handy

Oh, and really pretty ;-)

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_1989~Vivien-Leigh-Posters.jpg

Regards
RupertMac

[Clint Johnson]

I'm gonna put out my speculatory wishlist for Scarlet without reading over this thread and then go back over it to see how many others hit the same points as me.

I'd like it to be compact and modular with five interlinked components:

1)The sensor and lens mount. Make it a s35mm sized 2K sensor with nice big photosites for a stellar latitude and sensitivity along with a limited DoF when desired. Incorporate the Birger mount with the user option of Canon or Nikon. Get Birger to incorporate the feedback autofocus that they were speculating about with a thumbstick on the control surface to select the focus point with the ability to set a number of focus points to trigger the lens to focus at point (1) then to point (2) then to (3) and back to (1). Of course it would also have the option of going back to full manual with the remote FF unit.

2)The viewer module with the option of a 4” LCD or (very) compact EVF.

3)The processing and recording unit. This would also have the 1080p HDMI output and the two XLR audio inputs along with the POTs to control the audio levels. Of course it will be R3D recorded to CompactFlash at variable frame rates up to 180 fps.

4)The control surface would be on an undockable unit that can attach as a pistol grip on the head alone, horizontally on the main body for the typical camcorder setup or as a pistol grip on a 15mm rod for shoulder mount configuration. Wireless would be best.

5)The battery should be a quarter the size of the Red One battery but with the exact same interface. When the Scarlet battery is integrated into the body it would be all about the compact and light but when it is in one of the undocked configurations we could substitute a Red One battery for four times the life.

When we Lego them together it would be a tight unit that is smaller than a DVX100 but with the ability to rotate and shift the modules to fit you and how you want to shoot. If you want it to be horizontal or vertical or have a dogleg in the middle... have it your way.

You could pull it apart and have a plethora of options from balancing on an extremely light shoulder or stabilizer rig on out to a radical setup using two Scarlets with the processing/recording/batteries on a belt, the sensors mounted on the sides of a helmet while the compact EVF's are mounted in front of each eye for WYSIWYG 3D. We've evolved to keep our head rather steady and so long as it is light enough I think that this might make for a kickass stabilized 3D configuration.

And build this around 15mm rods but with Scarlet specified, thin walled aluminum rods that cut the weight way down since they will be carrying hardware designed for the Scarlet rather than a big brute of a camera.

[chuck colburn]

Good ideas Clint.
Happy new year to you and the doggies.

[Zack Birlew]

I agree with you guys, the theme is most definitely S16 (ie. 2K) equivalent to the RED One's S35 (ie. 4K).

When they said "Pocket Camera", dozens of images popped into my head. Does that mean the camera will be the size of one of those HD Sanyo cameras? The size of an HV10/HV20? The size of a smaller prosumer camera like the Sony HC1/A1U? DVX-sized or more? It could be anything. In any case, I know it's going to be awesome, especially if it has interchangeable lenses.

Here's my list:

- 2K with variable frame rates (120fps would be nice but that's RAW port territory)
- HDMI out
- Records to CF with 2 slots at least
- LCD only unless it's a bigger DVX-size (which I doubt if it's "pocket"-sized)

Alternatively or including

- Proprietary output to RED LCD so you can have a bigger LCD to monitor, make the camera smaller, and be able to monitor more easily if you have to put the camera in a tight spot, like between books on a bookshelf. The LCD could also be mounted to the camera for when you want everything all-in-one and also have the option for those who want to or can only afford to use just the Scarlet for their film. A small external LCD would just make things more flexible I think, especially if you are using one in conjunction with the RED One, swapping accessories back and forth as needed for the scene.

- Two XLR/Mini-XLR inputs
- Just as much image and audio controls as the RED One
- If possible, compatibility with RED One batteries. I've always liked how Canon allows for the same batteries to be used for all of their GL, XH, and XL lines, it would be nice to have the same thing for the RED family of cameras.

[Clint Johnson]

Good ideas Clint.
Happy new year to you and the doggies.

Thank you... and hopefully this year the dogs can stay away from the porcupines and out of the Perry's traps. The fun of reaching into a growling wolves mouth to pull out barbed needles wears thin after the first few... and he wasn't that fond of our ministering to the open and festering wounds on his paw either... right to the bone and the doofus refused to leave the dressing alone or refrain from going on his runnabouts.

[chuck colburn]

I'm going to tell him what you called him. lol Ah yes strong willed dogs can test one can't they? Took me a while to break mine of the habit of treeing cougars.

[Martin Jäger]

- 2k Fullframe
- 1-100fps
- 1k Windowed 1-200fps
- killer light sensitive (2k Fullframe might help)
- PL Mount
- 4 ch 96kHz, 24bit Audio
- 5 inch 720p Built in Display
- variable Data Rates
- 2 CF Slots
- size of two HV 20

Martin

[Erik Greensmith]

It'd be nice to see a pistol-grip configuration like an old Super8 camera. Fully modular, of course, but having the Birger focus control, zoom (through s4/i?) and roll on a single hand grip like a TV studio cam.

[Jason Wingrove]

just something like this will be fine thanks jim :sarcasm:

[brandon herman]

i think being modular is key.

my wishlist:

-the "camera" is basically an imaging head with a compact flash slot and a lens mount. This can probably be as small as an HV20. Then you add on what you need.

-minimum 2k, with a 16mm or larger sized chip; 120fps would be amazing, but I'd expect at least 60fps.

-there could be a device that has one end slide into the CF slot, that goes off to a little array of two or three CF slots, for longer shooting times. But you wouldn't need this every day, so keep it off the body. This could be good for the Red One, as well, and I think the more pieces that can be used on both cameras, the better.

-I don't think we need tons of options in terms of formats - shoot everything in whatever the native format is, and take care of everything else in post. That cuts down on the need for lots of buttons, menus, etc.... All we need is on ON/OFF button and a REC/STOP button. (Ok, we'll need controls for shutter and framerates....maybe even some playback funcyionality.... But we don't need the extensive menu and button array found on the back of the RED ONE.) The ISO could stay the same, too. No 'gain' is needed. Shoot clean; adjust in post.

-PL mount is nice, but is it practical on such a small camera? Whoever is buying this cam might not have access to true cine glass. Maybe c-mount, with an adapter for 35mm SLR lenses makes more sense. OIS would be awesome for documentary situations. Sony DSLRs put this in the body, so that every lens you use becomes stabilized.

-viewfinders and LCDs should be options, the same ones for the RED ONE, that can be attached where and when you need one. (That keeps it easy for RED...I think.) Mount the LCD on top, or handhold it separately. Put Scarlet on a jib arm and run a cord to your 7" monitor, or run HDMI to your 60" HDTV. I'd get a monitor, but not a viewfinder.

-Keep it light, so I can use the affordable tripods, skateboard dollies, and jib arms I've been using for my mini-DV shooting.

-some fun accessories could be developed to stick the camera onto a car hood, zip line, skydiving helmet, skateboard, etc...

-There should be outputs for recording to RedDrive. Also, HDMI out and maybe even a downconverted RCA video-out for us poor souls who will need to set up video village with 23" SD monitors. (I can't be the only one.)

-2 xlr inputs (minis are fine by me), with 48k, 16bit sound. Auto levels are useful for wild sound in documentary situations. Volume dials are almost essential. Many of us don't have dedicated audio people or pro-mixers. It doesn't work for every situation, but it's great for sit down interviews where the levels won't change very often. (I set one high and one low. If they whisper, I have the louder track. If they scream, I have the quieter track.) This would also mean the ability to feed in one mic and have it go to both tracks at different levels, like on the DVX.

-A tiny little, very light, battery as a second option to the standard Red batt. This may only last 45 minutes, but it could be very useful for handheld situations or where size/weight is important.

-It would be awesome if Scarlet could play back RAW footage that was shot on a Red One. I just see that being useful one day.

-histograms, false color, magic focus, etc...

-set the body under $5,500, and we'll need to spend about another $1,500 - $3,000 in whatever accessories we choose to get. (LCD vs. EVF, etc...)

[chuckt]

i think being modular is key.- $3,000 in whatever accessories we choose to get. (LCD vs. EVF, etc...)

What is the point of just talking about imaginary things?
.

[Casey Green]

What is the point of just talking about imaginary things?
.

hmmm.... perhaps this thread can answer that: :wink:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2595

[chuckt]

hmmm.... perhaps this thread can answer that: :wink:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2595

I understand. The RED camera design changes and evolves. So, the new camera also will evolve. Discussion like this would give some ideas to RED team. I got it.

It would be nice if the RED guys give some info so that the speculators can make some informed speculations.

[David Wyatt]

I think the Scarlet speculation boils down to this:
1. Is this camera going to be a lower-end HVX200 type camera with a smaller chip than Red One and possibly only 2K? OR...
2. Is this camera going to be interchangeable with Red One (i.e. 35mm sized sensor, 4K ability but less feature-packed)?

I'm guessing at the latter, it doesn't really make sense for Red to go for a whole other, lower-end market especially when their offering first dibs to current Red One owners (why would those owners be interested in a lower-end camera that wouldn't necessarily match their Red Ones especially in terms of resolution and DOF?) I see this camera as more like the Aaton A-Minima was to Super 16mm when it came out - fantastically small and mobile, able to be rigged virtually anywhere but with less capabilities than its bigger Super 16mm brothers like the SR3).

David Wyatt.

[Wayne Morellini]

Hey Wayne, welcome to reduser! Come see us at NAB '08 for the details etc.!



As Jim would say it's going to be BAD ASS :)

Hope so.

Was the company that provided the technology base for the mysterium sensor ever announced?

Thanks for the invitation.

[vinodkumar]

jimm let me know is there any dealer in india? wooo

[Mark L. Pederson]

Okay here my guess -

$1299

720p - RGB or RAW

up to 120 fps

internal flash drive

fixed lens

[Evin Grant]

Before I start please know I have no more solid info than any other person outside Red.

There are two words here to work from "Pocket" and "Professional"

I for one do not think Jim minces words so I'm inclined to believe that Scarlet is most decidedly both. From that we can infer a few things...

Pocket means small, like this...
http://www.photographyblog.com/images/pma2007/pma2007_canon_tx1_3.jpg
So I don't think we will see a 35mm imager or an interchangeable lens, although c-mount optics might be possible, there are some 1/3" fujinons for the Iconix camera. But I doubt it's a three chip sensor, most likely it's a 1/3" or 1/2" size CMOS.

Professional means 1080P or 2K Redcode RAW
720P is a broadcast format and a prosumer format, even Panasonic is starting to move away from it with the HPX3000 and the Varicam2.
It also means manual iris and focus. Almost assuredly it will record to SD-HC cards. They are plenty big and fast enough for the 2K variety of Redcode and take up much less room in the pocket.

So who and what is Scarlet for then? I suspect that Scarlet is in some ways Red's answer to the SI-2K mini, but Redder. Firstly it's a perfect POV and remote camera for all sorts of interesting shots. Secondly it'll be a lot more discreet than your Red One so if you need to steal a shot you can look just like a tourist with your pocket camera and still get 2K Redcode to mix in with your 4k. I can think of all sorts of reason's you'd want it "but mostly, it's for the reason's we haven't thought of." (Thank you Mr. Sagan)

Price:
Here's were I think that Professional part comes in again. It's not going to be sub $5000, at least I'd be surprised. But it won't be over $10,000 either.
Anyway that's my take on things.

I just can't wait to hold Scarlet in my arms, Err, hands.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Price:
Here's were I think that Professional part comes in again. It's not going to be sub $5000, at least I'd be surprised.

Over $5K for a pocket camera? I don't see it.

I think Red is going to make the most "bad ass" CONSUMER camera - with features professional can use. That, is a big market. That is not over $5K.

[Evin Grant]

Look how many HVXs have sold at $5k+. It's not too much to ask if the image and build are there.

[Corey Culp]

Over $5K for a pocket camera? I don't see it.

I think Red is going to make the most "bad ass" CONSUMER camera - with features professional can use. That, is a big market. That is not over $5K.

Hehehe. Always the cheerleader, Mark. :)

[Ethan Cooper]

Offhollywood,
I disagree about your 720p theory... this thing will do 1080 or they can't call it pro. I don't think it'll do full 2K, but 1080 is pretty darn close anyway.

It's Jim's insistence on calling it "pocket" that has me confused. How "pro" can something that small be? Is it one of those deals where it's just marketing speak and the body alone without a lens, battery or anything else will fit into a huge pocket? I just don't know.
________
Colorado marijuana dispensary (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[sceneeast]

Pocket
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pockets hang from belts as 15th-century peasants thresh siligo wheat in a Tacuinum Sanitatis

A pocket is a small bag, particularly a bag-like receptacle either fastened to or inserted in an article of clothing. Cargo pants have pockets with an extra large capacity.

In European clothing pockets began by being hung like purses from a belt, which could be concealed beneath a coat or jerkin and reached through a slit in the outer garment.

The word appears in Middle English as poket, and is taken from a Norman diminutive of O. Fr. poke, pouque, mod. poche, cf. pouch. The form "poke" is now only used dialectically, or in such proverbial sayings as "a pig in a poke," and possibly in the poke-bonnet, the coal-scuttle bonnet fashionable during the first part of the 19th century, and now worn by the female members of the Salvation Army. More probably the name of the bonnet is connected with poke, to thrust forward, dig. The origin of this is obscure. Dutch has poken, pook, a dagger; Swedish has påk, a stick.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Offhollywood,
I disagree about your 720p theory... this thing will do 1080 or they can't call it pro. I don't think it'll do full 2K, but 1080 is pretty darn close anyway.

It's Jim's insistence on calling it "pocket" that has me confused. How "pro" can something that small be? Is it one of those deals where it's just marketing speak and the body alone without a lens, battery or anything else will fit into a huge pocket? I just don't know.

Yeah - I think it will be 1080p the more I think about it - BUT the Varicam (720p) is still a professional camera. 16mm cameras are still "professional" -

The RED website does say "professional digital cinema" - so, MAYBE it is a tiny HIGH END CAMERA - THAT might be $5K+ like Evin is suggesting - but that is a MUCH smaller market than PRO-SUMERS, FILM SCHOOLS, SERIOUS HOBBIESTS -

I am VERY curious - (and so are the competitors!! heheheheh) I'm buying one anyway, as WHATEVER the hell it is - it's gonna be cool -

I bit the bullet and picked up a Canon HV20 just to shoot home movies of my son - I am shocked how good the stuff looks for a camera under $1K -

[Daymon Hoffman]

Offhollywood has got very similar guesses to what i have. Of course at the odd occasion i get stumped and think "but then again it could be totally different considering the lack of info we have started with" so i take a step back and keep the hopes low so as to not be dashed! haha

So on one hand i want to "keep it real" and guesstimate similar things to what you list. But then the other hand thinks about RED ONE and what it has done to that side of the market and if it was then done RED Style to the "pocket" side of the market. 10x less the cost @ 4x the resolution + Customer Driven Desires and Features.

Hmmm I shall remain low hopes just in case its not as big an effort from the RED Team (not that that is a bad thing they are stellar!). Because with such little info to go off this early in the game it could be anything regardless of a few terms here and there. I know what i'd love RED to do, and thats do to the 2k-8k (pro-sumer to entry level pro) sector what they did to the full on pro sector so such pro features and quality is available at a fraction of the cost even dedicated students and pro-sumers could afford such a feature packed bit of kit!

I'll just have to stay low hoped for a bit longer for some more solid info! But its great reading all the ideas people have :) Oh and even though painful, Jim's teasing dribs of info and phrases are great because Canon/Sony/Panasonic etc would never do it and its getting much more taboo the design and creation process when it should be the opposite this day and age. ala RED

Sorry for the rant. I'm excited (Like Big Kev!)

[chuckt]

- THAT might be $5K+ like Evin is suggesting - but that is a MUCH smaller market than PRO-SUMERS, FILM SCHOOLS, SERIOUS HOBBIESTS - -

How much market is there really for all these 4K REDs?

I have been doing some math lately.
In this whole world about 5000 movies are made every year.
Assuming a 2 month average shooting per movie, that will make 10K months a year. That is 850 shooting years. If everybody shoot with RED, (which is not going to happen for another 50 years), then we will need about 1000 REDs to do the job. In 2008, there will be over 5000 REDS in use. Or, in otherwords, there is an over abundance of REDs out there.

All enthusiasm we see on these forums are the result of anticipation of getting their first REDs. By next year this time, all the enthusiasm we see on these forums might turn to gloom and frustration. Boom and Bust. Add to the mix, another 10000 4K 24P Panasonics and Sonys. It will be avalanche following a lomg drought. Everybody will be drowned in 4k 24P and not enough projects to use it on.

I was just thinking aloud. Things may not be as bad. But, it is a thought anyway.

[Mark L. Pederson]

How much market is there really for all these 4K REDs?

I have been doing some math lately.
In this whole world about 5000 movies are made every year.
Assuming a 2 month average shooting per movie, that will make 10K months a year. That is 850 shooting years. If everybody shoot with RED, (which is not going to happen for another 50 years), then we will need about 1000 REDs to do the job. In 2008, there will be over 5000 REDS in use. Or, in otherwords, there is an over abundance of REDs out there.

All enthusiasm we see on these forums are the result of anticipation of getting their first REDs. By next year this time, all the enthusiasm we see on these forums might turn to gloom and frustration. Boom and Bust. Add to the mix, another 10000 4K 24P Panasonics and Sonys. It will be avalanche following a lomg drought. Everybody will be drowned in 4k 24P and not enough projects to use it on.

I was just thinking aloud. Things may not be as bad. But, it is a thought anyway.

There is always television, fashion, commercials, new media/web & mobile content, documentaries, adult entertainment, film students, etc. etc.

And VERY few films are made with one camera.

But, yeah, the numbers are disruptive for sure.

[Patrick Tresch]

[QUOTE=Evin Grant;131158] But I doubt it's a three chip sensor, most likely it's a 1/3" or 1/2" size CMOS.
QUOTE]

Evin I agree with nearly everything you said. Just to add that 1/3 CMO is not considered as a "professional" format by our national TV (Switzerland) that by the way has very low technical criterions.

So I think minimum is 2k s16mm sensor size.

See you.

Pat


PS: Scarlet is named to reference of a virus : that is visible through apparition or huge amount or RED spots.:shifty:

[Robert Batta]

my pocket cinema idea
;)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Look how many HVXs have sold at $5k+. It's not too much to ask if the image and build are there.

I am curious - HOW MANY HVX's worldwide? How many Canon HV20's? Anybody have real numbers?

[Steve Freebairn]

I bit the bullet and picked up a Canon HV20 just to shoot home movies of my son - I am shocked how good the stuff looks for a camera under $1K -

I just bought an HV20 for home videos too, It's great for the price. I got it for 750 with a 75 dollar gift card to B&H. I just need to get Adobe to allow us to interpret HDV footage in Premiere like you can in AE, so that I can have 24P.

[Kholi Hicks]

Has ANYONE asked this yet!?:

Where did JUAN from REEL-STREAM GO!?!?!

Is Scarlet a system that can shoot 1080p natively, 60p, and then out of a Gigabit Ethernet connection (Tethered) has the ability to shoot 2k and a host of other uncompressed options.

The HVX + HYDRA option was coming in (with 35mm Adapter) at about 12k, that was going to get you so many different options to shoot with including 2k 60p, uncompressed, etc etc.

Has ANYONE thought that Scarlet might be a similar system? Shoots 1080p natively, but when tethered to a notebook and RED software, you get 2k and even more options for the same price-point? Interchangable lenses?

I don't disagree with the "Pocket" theory that Evin Grant posted because it's completely valid. At the same time, it's pretty WELL-TIMED that REEL-STREAM vanishes and SCARLET is no longer a rumor but official (in the sense that now it has its own sub-forum).

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Has ANYONE asked this yet!?:

Where did JUAN from REEL-STREAM GO!?!?!

Is Scarlet a system that can shoot 1080p natively, 60p, and then out of a Gigabit Ethernet connection (Tethered) has the ability to shoot 2k and a host of other uncompressed options.

The HVX + HYDRA option was coming in (with 35mm Adapter) at about 12k, that was going to get you so many different options to shoot with including 2k 60p, uncompressed, etc etc.

Has ANYONE thought that Scarlet might be a similar system? Shoots 1080p natively, but when tethered to a notebook and RED software, you get 2k and even more options for the same price-point? Interchangable lenses?

I don't disagree with the "Pocket" theory that Evin Grant posted because it's completely valid. At the same time, it's pretty WELL-TIMED that REEL-STREAM vanishes and SCARLET is no longer a rumor but official (in the sense that now it has its own sub-forum).

I had a lot of dialog with Juan, and I know for a fact that he ISN'T working for Red. He's working for a different company now, but as for who bought the technology, I have no idea. All I know is he had several bidders, and he can't say anything about it for the time being (gag order I assume).

Hope that sheds some light.

[Jason Wingrove]

Jim if you start the pre order now you could have a couple of thousand on the list before anyone even knows what it is, or how much it is :-)
j

[Kholi Hicks]

I had a lot of dialog with Juan, and I know for a fact that he ISN'T working for Red. He's working for a different company now, but as for who bought the technology, I have no idea. All I know is he had several bidders, and he can't say anything about it for the time being (gag order I assume).

Hope that sheds some light.

Thanks, Maverick.

[Casey Green]

The way I see it, the idea for Scarlet was probably born when the engineers at RED looked at all of the components that they have on the RED ONE now.

They probably started thinking things like, "hmmm, what other cool toys could we make with this stuff" or "I wonder how small we could make a Camera with these parts... imagine a pocket sized 4K Camera?!"

So my inclination is that Scarlet will shoot up to 4K on the 35mm Mysterium Sensor. Think about it. What is one of the first things you think of when you hear "RED"... it's 4K, it's their brand in a way. You also think revolutionary, and pushing the boundaries.

With all of the competition in under $10,000 Cameras, and with RED stressing "pocket" and "professional", plus there being other competition with the SI-2K Mini, it seems like they would at least try for a 4K design using their existing technology.

They never actually said that the design including lens and viewfinder would be pocket sized, just that they Camera would be. So perhaps it is similar to the SI-2K Mini approach and they are looking to develop a Camera that would be perfect for 3D rigs and the like.

You'd always be able to add a handle and viewfinder to it if you wanted to, but have the option for a more compact setup, if need be.

Hmmm... that gets me thinking...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/971_1199598742.jpg

:biggrin: Just Kidding!

But seriously, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Keep an eye out for Panasonic. There are rumors circulating about their next prosumer camera. In fact, I was just told about a new promotional video that slipped through the cracks which talks up their new approach by using an ultra compact design. Here is a link to the clip:

http://tinyurl.com/2zloe5

Whatever RED's Scarlet is, I'm sure it's gonna kick ass. I would think it is also designed to be low maintenance and a cash cow. Lookin' forward to NAB!

[Sean Michael Johnston]

I hope Scarlet goes in this direction.

[Craig Schober]

So my inclination is that Scarlet will shoot up to 4K on the 35mm Mysterium Sensor. Think about it. What is one of the first things you think of when you hear "RED"... it's 4K, it's their brand in a way. You also think revolutionary, and pushing the boundaries.


jim has said it will not compete with the red one. now that can be interpreted in a few ways but i interpret it to mean that it won't include the red one's primary attraction which is precisely 4k. and just think of how many red one customers would be pissed off that they paid $30000 for 4k and the guy next door got 4k for $5000. of course they are 2 totally different cameras and i'm throwing around numbers but the media wouldn't care. they love to sacrifice media darlings to their jaded readers. remember the backlash against apple lowering the iphone price so quickly.

the point of scarlet is to leverage the things that redone cannot currently or can never be and those are:

very portable
easy to use for wider market acceptance (auto focus/iris/shutter, etc (there are plenty of "professional" camera systems with all these features))
increased storage/compression on a solid state device (imagine a huge, built-in ssd. it would lower costs and alleviate ssd incompatabilities)
and more bells and whistles that i can't think of now because i'm not part of the red team.

[yevlar]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but what I think would be a very interesting thing to do with Scarlet could be with scalable Firmware. i.e. Have the 4k Mysterium sensor in the camera, but have the option of buying, say, 2K-only firmware for a sub-$10,000 price tag, with the option to upgrade to 4K-capable firmware for an additional cost at a later date. This could get those of us with tinier budgets into the RED world without upsetting the early-adopting, higher-paying users of RED One.

[Adam Palomer]

Personally, I'd like to see Scarlet follow the same form factor as the old Panasonic AG-EZ1 or even more compact.

[Peter McCully]

I hope Scarlet goes in this direction.

That would be fine. Just so long as I don't have to have the gate ground out to make it super16 size!

[JustMe]

"I have stated it is a motion capture camera..."
"Scarlet is not a substitute for the RED ONE. It will never have features close to the RED ONE. We will NOT take reservations for Scarlet. And please remember that the key word for Scarlet is "Pocket"."


Thats a Spec. :D

[JustMe]

Haakon... please do not guess like you know what Scarlet is or is not. Neither of you knows so please keep your speculation to just that. Speaking like you know what it is or is not is not acceptable. You might get someone to believe you actually know what you are talking about...

Jim

Ouch..public scolding
Scarlet just changed.

[Häakon]

Haakon... please do not guess like you know what Scarlet is or is not. Neither of you knows so please keep your speculation to just that. Speaking like you know what it is or is not is not acceptable. You might get someone to believe you actually know what you are talking about...

Jim
Hi Jim,

I have removed my original post.

Let me make it clear to the RED community; I do not have any insider information on Scarlet and my post was speculation and not fact.

I apologize for any confusion I have caused.

[Mark L. Pederson]

my pocket cinema idea
;)
you got some big pockets ...

[Mark L. Pederson]

one could take a gamble and scoop up some C-mounts - LOTS around from Bolex days - http://www.chamblesscineequip.com/catalog/lenses.htm

Personally, I still speculate that it will be a (very good) fixed lens - and UNDER $1,499.

And it will look good next to my new 3G 2nd-gen iPhone.

[mezmo]

Better put a phone in this thing,
I've heard (on the grapevine, no links and total gossip) of a
Mini Raw Camera Phone out of China (Japanese backers) recording
2K Raw to CF with editing software for PC. Has auto focus and optional
lens elements Long,medium,wide. Will sell for about US $1K and
warning, this could be total rubbish, heard it from some Red
competition out there in the Asia/Pacific area, they will be made in the
billions.
Great idea, and if it's real why wouldn't everybody get one for Christmas.
Mezmo

[Wayne Morellini]

Better put a phone in this thing,
I've heard (on the grapevine, no links and total gossip) of a
Mini Raw Camera Phone out of China (Japanese backers) recording
2K Raw to CF with editing software for PC. Has auto focus and optional
lens elements Long,medium,wide. Will sell for about US $1K and
warning, this could be total rubbish, heard it from some Red
competition out there in the Asia/Pacific area, they will be made in the
billions.
Great idea, and if it's real why wouldn't everybody get one for Christmas.
Mezmo

Looks like they listened to me. Now I am confused, there are so many choices, with all the releases at CES added. I hope they have sense enough to have an BT headset, and view-screen call notification.

Casio has an 6mp 60fps burst stills camera, brilliant pictures (from the prototype). Some article suggested $999, but I do not know if they were kidding, though it is in an consumer SLR type enclosure. Could we expect something in this price range, the pricing of quality cameras is very competitive now?

Actually, I have seen an SLR phone already. but I don't image it is does 2K raw, or is anything but gimmicky.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't remember where I saw the link but someone announced a $150 1080p camera at CES that shoots to SD Cards.

Come'on Jim. Don't let the chinese out do you.

S16mm
PL Mount
2k
integrated 3.5" display
CF Cards.

$1000

[Häakon]

I'm with Gavin... CF is a saving grace of the RED ONE and I'd love to see it carry over to Scarlet. Solid state acquisition is the best way, hands down!

[Matthew Greene]

An Aaton A-Minima equivalent digital camera with a S-16 sized sensor (or S-16 windowing I guess) would be something I would absolutely die for. I think that 16mm's DOF is more managable for a "pocket" camera.

[Poi Boy]

cf for sure ... I'm still hoping for 4K though.
Aloha
-A

[Simon Smith]

I'm still hoping for 4K though.
Me too. Why not?

[brandon herman]

Personally, I still speculate that it will be a (very good) fixed lens - and UNDER $1,499.

And it will look good next to my new 3G 2nd-gen iPhone.



You just blew my mind!

Mark, your post reminds me of the Priceline commercial where the guy is going to offer $180 for a hotel that normally costs $200 a night, then William Shatner shows up and eggs him on until he offers $99.

"Now you're negotiating."

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm with Gavin... CF is a saving grace of the RED ONE and I'd love to see it carry over to Scarlet. Solid state acquisition is the best way, hands down!

Or ExpressCards. Those would be good too. Just nothing that spins or whirs.

[Rocco Schult]

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but...

Is there even confirmation that this is a MOTION camera?

DSLR with up to 300 fps ?

[Gene Crucean]

I don't remember where I saw the link but someone announced a $150 1080p camera at CES that shoots to SD Cards.

Come'on Jim. Don't let the chinese out do you.

S16mm
PL Mount
2k
integrated 3.5" display
CF Cards.

$1000

I'm actually hoping for something more in the 5 inch range minimum. This thing will no doubt be shooting some flavor of HD and if you can't at least pull focus with it then it's completely useless imo.

And I'm assuming that Jim won't throw in some crappy "everything is always in focus" sized chip with autofocus only.

[Gene Crucean]

Btw, have any of you seen this thing in person yet?

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=577&parentCategoryId=16154

It's LCD is RAZOR sharp! To be honest... It's the sharpest, best looking LCD I've ever seen. This thing would be perfect for the Scarlet. It's touch screen too.

[Aiden Cornwell]

I think that this camera will not be 4k. I also suspect it will be more of an ENG style with an option to shoot raw. The reason for this is when shooting Redone the footage needs to be graded first either through redcine or red alert. This process alone may scare away many prosumer and ENG style users. I also think that coming out with a camera that costs 10k or more is getting too much into the realm of competing with Red One which this Camera is not designed to do. (I believe Jim has stated that)

I am not sure this new pocket camera will have interchangeable lenses. While many on this forum believe that a camera must have interchangeable lenses to be considered pro, I am not one of those. Many Pro wedding shooters, corporate video shooters, documentary shooters do not use cameras with interchangeable lenses. These professionals and others such as VFX artists will be very interested in this camera. If you want a camera that has interchangeable lenses 2k or 4k raw well I know the perfect camera for you it's called the "Red One" ;)

Keep up the speculating though it is great fun to read and see everyone’s opinions

P.S. I have absolutely no inside information and my thoughts are pure speculation.

[Rocco Schult]

...could be with scalable Firmware. i.e. Have the 4k Mysterium sensor in the camera, but have the option of buying, say, 2K-only firmware for a sub-$10,000 price tag, with the option to upgrade to 4K-capable firmware for an additional cost at a later date...

Ripoff.
Having everything necessary inside and you even paid it, is just plain Autodesk.
If its in the cam, its paid.
Want to have a Mercedes for the price of a VW, just by applying stripped-down firmware ?

[Robert Batta]

you got some big pockets ...

some guys say HVX, DVX size...is a pocket size?
the pocket size relative in this thing...

the very little pocket cams like a Sanyo Xacti HD series is a gadget pocket size and unusable for pro filmmakers

optimal size and optimal weight and balance is very important in this thing
my little cinema rig (HV20+vibration 35mm DOF adapoter+rod support+top handle)
is 2 kg / 4.5lbs and i say is maybe to light ...sometimes not enough for minimize the handshake in run and gun situations...
but not bad ;)

sorry my bad english

[rupertmac]

the very little pocket cams like a Sanyo Xacti HD series is a gadget pocket size and unusable for pro filmmakers

optimal size and optimal weight and balance is very important in this thing
my little cinema rig (HV20+vibration 35mm DOF adapoter+rod support+top handle)
is 2 kg / 4.5lbs and i say is maybe to light ...sometimes not enough for minimize the handshake in run and gun situations...



I agree, My present rig is a based around a 'pimped' Gy-HD100 on rails with matte box, follow focus, hard disk etc. and its about 4.5kg and its its nicely balanced for run and gun.

Have to say I not to hot on the mini-cam idea. Silly as it sound, it would be kinda hard to explain to my clients why I shooting their projects with a security camera :waaa:

[oldphart]

some guys say HVX, DVX size...is a pocket size?
the pocket size relative in this thing...

the very little pocket cams like a Sanyo Xacti HD series is a gadget pocket size and unusable for pro filmmakers

optimal size and optimal weight and balance is very important in this thing
my little cinema rig (HV20+vibration 35mm DOF adapoter+rod support+top handle)
is 2 kg / 4.5lbs and i say is maybe to light ...sometimes not enough for minimize the handshake in run and gun situations...
but not bad ;)

sorry my bad english

I would see something like the Leica M4 as the ideal form factor. If you need it to be heavier for some use, just add a big battery, recording device and shoulder mount.

I do not see the Scarlet as a poor man's Red One, I see it as something you can take with you when you're hiking or when you need to be really unobtrusive or when bulk and weight is severely restricted.

We need a Leica of the movie world. The Leica made history because it could be used in places where the typical 4x5" camera of the day could not go. It was not a cheap alternative, it was a small alternative. It needed different techniques to show its best sides, you could not use it as if it were a small big camera and expect good results.

Maybe Red needs to make three cameras, one for cinema, one for ENG and documentaries, and one true pocket camera with interchangable lenses and top quality.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I am sure this is why RED started this thread. I for one have no use
for a "pocket cam" I have tried several and all were POS (piles of shit)
What we need is a 1080 P camera that will blow away the HVX and HDV camcorders.

[Gene Crucean]

Soo umm... I just wanted to add that my pockets are HUGE. Actually, to be more specific... they fit an HVX perfectly and have a pocket camera sized hole in the bottom. :biggrin:


... that is all.

[divergent]

I am sure this is why RED started this thread. I for one have no use
for a "pocket cam" I have tried several and all were POS (piles of shit)


None of the current 'pocket cams' on the market are designed or intended for pro use, they are consumer products - but that doesn't mean that if someone did it right they wouldn't be great tools for pros. I have an aiptek pocket HD camera which is a POS - and should be since it cost $125. It records crappy 720p to sd cards, and I'd never use it for real work - but it's fun to play with and gets me thinking about unusual ways/places to shoot because of it's small size. I also keep it in my bag with me everywhere I go. More than that though, it makes me think of the potential there for someone to do the same thing but as a true pro camera.


What we need is a 1080 P camera that will blow away the HVX and HDV camcorders.

I don't think that's what we need - there's already a ton of cameras and competition in that space. I just don't see a lot of room for anyone to 'blow away' the current cameras like those - what features would do it? 4k? Interchangeable lenses? Redcode RAW? Adding just one of those things wouldn't be enough, adding all of them and you're talking about Red One. A lot of the speculation here seems to be people that basically want a Red One that is price-competitive with an HVX - and as others have said if they could have they would have, and even if they could I can't see any way you could realistically describe that as a pocket camera.

Oldphart's right, we need the equivalent of a leica M for filmmakers - and I don't mean in terms of form factor but in terms of it's place in a filmmaker's toolset. Continuing from the 5 things thread:


I do not think it is realistic to get more than s16 @2k+ because of power and cooling considerations, though. If it were possible to pack the s35 electronics into a pocket-sized case, that would have been the Red One.

I'm not sure about this... the reason I spec'd s35 is because I see it having a 1080 resolution. We've already got very small, high res sensors in video and still cameras, and we have large, high res sensors in high end DSLRs and R1. We haven't seen much with a large, relatively low res sensor, which I think might drop the power and cooling requirements enough to make it work while also being truly revolutionary. It would give us a camera with absolutely incredible low light capabilities - perfect for shooting anywhere at any time with available light while still creating amazing looking images.

I also don't see autofocus as part of the equation - while I'm sure some will argue over whether it's a professional feature or not, I don't think it'll be an issue. With the large, low res chip sensitivity should be enough that in run & gun situations you could just stop down and have sufficient DOF that focus is no longer critical. No autofocus = less size/complexity & better battery life.

[Poi Boy]

The way I envision Scarlet is a 4K HV20; fixed lens (really good) and auto and manual everything shooting into cf at whatever price that takes.
Aloha
-A

[watergate]

Search at uspto. Click search, then basic search, use Red.com as the search term and set "Field" to ALL:
http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

There are some tasty spoilers in there.

[Robert Mott]

Search at uspto. Click search, then basic search, use Red.com as the search term and set "Field" to ALL:
http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

There are some tasty spoilers in there.

That is interesting.

[jaadgy akanni]

The way I envision Scarlet is a 4K HV20; fixed lens (really good) and auto and manual everything shooting into cf at whatever price that takes.
Aloha
-A

Yeap, me too. I also wouldn't mind if it were only 24fps and nothing more.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Search at uspto. Click search, then basic search, use Red.com as the search term and set "Field" to ALL:
http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

There are some tasty spoilers in there.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=aohrcv.5.48
:calm:

Of course they could be throwing us for a wild goose chase because they also trademarked "MicroHD" and then abandoned it.... Which I suppose might really mean 2k.

I'm still gunning for S16 Mysterium 2k.


Edit: Also interesting is that RED reserves the RED Cinema trademark for digital white boards.... ok. Doubt we'll ever see that.

[Wayne Morellini]

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=aohrcv.5.48
:calm:

Of course they could be throwing us for a wild goose chase because they also trademarked "MicroHD" and then abandoned it.... Which I suppose might really mean 2k.

I'm still gunning for S16 Mysterium 2k.


Edit: Also interesting is that RED reserves the RED Cinema trademark for digital white boards.... ok. Doubt we'll ever see that.

Hmm, hate to be speculative at this stage, but MicroHD might even be an previouse name to Scarlet, or conflict with another product (sounds familiar).

I have been thinking of ergonomic video production equipment design for over ten years, and this Red Cinema digital white board things sounds interesting from an number of possible angles. Such an system would be interesting for editing, or multi camera control (with small enough display). I often considered such designs for document editing over the last 20 years (my sort of design work needs 6 or more pages open at once for cross referencing) and considered an design for video ten years ago.

Jim, is there anything to this digital white board?

[Fence sitter]

Makes sense that its 2K as all of the FCP etc integration code would already be written. 4K was always unlikely both because of form factor, red one protection, cost and BATTERY LIFE! LCD viewing looks likely and would leverage te screen used on the red one in a built in form factor. Touch screen would mean miniaturisation but hopefully very intuitive...ala SI2K....no drilling sown through endless pages on pages to get to something that shoud be at the touch of a button. Interchangeble lenses would make sense and would allow a bigger camera to sli into the pocket camera class. Less output option....mini XLR x 2 for input, HDMI out only, timecode. Running on existing battery platforms. If SI can do a mini as a block camera with all of the network contol in the head then Red should be able to add compact flash recording and save real estate. Just look at how much of a camcorder is tape or disk transport, lens and zoom rocker and microphone!

Fence

[Wayne Morellini]

None of the current 'pocket cams' on the market are designed or intended for pro use, they are consumer products - but that doesn't mean that if someone did it right they wouldn't be great tools for pros. I have an aiptek pocket HD camera which is a POS - and should be since it cost $125. It

I agree. There is, apparently, 72060p models coming from Ispan soon. The thing is that with some minor redesign you could theoretically have one of these cameras record an 720p50 image in raw compressed format (the native 4:?:? format would be down interpolated to bayer). You would get something similar in quality to an Elphel. The biggest problem is stability, particularly when trying to adjust controls (let alone as many as an normal pro camera).

I tried all sorts of form factors of true pocket cameras in the dvinfo digital cinema camera projects, and came up with two single handed models with control of multiple manual controls simultaneously, with good stability. Otherwise you have to look at dual handed models to get any good stability with adjustment.

Sorry, just love design stuff.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Have to say I not to hot on the mini-cam idea. Silly as it sound, it would be kinda hard to explain to my clients why I shooting their projects with a security camera :waaa:

Well, it's not meant to replace RED One.
I guess its purpose is to provide different creative possibilities which smaller form factor allows.

[Yannick Hagman]

Search at uspto. Click search, then basic search, use Red.com as the search term and set "Field" to ALL:
http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

Nice one. Scarlet is 2k. I hope it's RAW.

Word Mark: SCARLET 2K POCKET PRO
Word Mark: SCARLET 2K

[Emanuel A.]

The way I envision Scarlet is a 4K HV20; fixed lens (really good) and auto and manual everything shooting into cf at whatever price that takes.
Aloha
-AYeap, me too. I also wouldn't mind if it were only 24fps and nothing more.Same here but 25fps too plus interchangeable lenses.

[onecheapmove]

If this camera isn't going to be a minimum of 1080p with 60fps crank and 4:4:4...I don't see the point of it coming out.

By the time it is out, Panny, Sony, etc. will have so saturated the market at a near price point, that a sub 10K camera wouldn't be very efficient for RED.

Heck, I still think a massive chunk of RED's business will be swallowed by Panny, Sony, etc. coming out with what's already been announced. There comes a point where an Indie filmmaker says, "okay, that's good enough quality for the price"...for most of us, that's happening in sub 10K cameras right now. (Pretty much the first 4:2:2 Intra-frame codec 1080p camera that comes out will steal the show...and we all know that's right around the corner).

Now then...It'll be a while after Scarlett is announed before it comes out. By then, the camera mentioned above will also be out, and so....

If Scarlett is really to be the splash everyone wants, it's going to have to do better for the same or less price, right?

Which means it must be...

Sub 10K
Excellent fixed lens or interchangeable lens option
Either 1080p 4:4:4 with overcrank or 2K 4:2:2 with overcrank
And of course, big sensor with big pipe line like RED ONE, or the like....

Here's my personal hopes...

Sub 10K
interchangeable lens system with ability to use still SLR lenses.
2K and 4:4:4
35mm sensor (at least s16)
HDMI out at least
Flash cards for Redcode/Redcode RAW
Durable as all get out

[onecheapmove]

Whoops...

Just read the above stuff one more time. Then visited the site mentioned. Cool. 2K. Man, if it is 4:4:4 and interchangeable lenses....ouch!

At least 4:4:4?....please?????

But a BIG SENSOR!!!!!

[brandon herman]

Nice one. Scarlet is 2k. I hope it's RAW.

Word Mark: SCARLET 2K POCKET PRO
Word Mark: SCARLET 2K



I feel a little like I just found my Christmas presents hidden under the bed, and I peeled the wrapping paper back. I'm excited, but I feel like I cheated. And now it seems like it will be an even longer wait to actually get it.

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I'm trying to follow these directions and I'm not finding it :(

A little help please... like a direct link to the search result :)

Thanks!

[Chris Nuzzaco]

never mind found it!

[skarz]

Jim,
please think about all the third-world filmmakers who pray you everyday for a cheap camera.
thanks

[vincelucero]

You guys are all wrong. Scarlet will be 3 chip (mini-Mysterium sensors) and will do 3d with the filck of a switch.

[DSNR]

Hello All, I might have missed if someone mentioned this earlier...so I do apologize if so.

There are a lot of speculations regarding the Scarlet name. "old fashioned, classic" etc...
Maybe the name mainly have to do that the Scarlet is Red color only "Hotter" i.e more orange, or reddish orange if I may.

As far as specs go,
I can only speculate it will be 2k at most. if so...
Most likely cheaper.
Perhaps fixed lens.(altough I'd like to think not).

as for the pocket camera. size or price Or size and price.

I don’t see why a camera should be more lightweight then Red is.
I could be wrong but

A: isn’t more weight gives better stability when handheld? (even though I'm sure it will probably be used over steadycam, dolly etc.

B: how small do they actually intend it to be. wouldnt it be better if they came out with a camera that their entire line of accessories will be compatible with?
I dont see why they would choose spending much more money on creating special line of accessories just for the pocket sized camera. where they can use their already available designed, tested and production ready accessory line.
which leaves me to money...it is probably cheaper.

All in all, I'm pretty sure that whatever it is, it will be as groundbreaking as Red, and built with the same fantastic quality we have seen so far from their products.

Kind Regards.

[jaadgy akanni]

I wanna make a bold prediction here: Right after NAB, Scarlet will be ready to ship. In fact, I believe that Scarlet is already in full production, and we might have already seen some footage and not even know it. How's that for speculation? Think about it ;-)

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I wanna make a bold prediction here: Right after NAB, Scarlet will be ready to ship. In fact, I believe that Scarlet is already in full production, and we might have already seen some footage and not even know it. How's that for speculation? Think about it ;-)

this is good.....what about this?
if you open a red, there is already a scarlet in it.

my speculation:
you will get 1080 p for 2ooo USD and can record to cf cards.

[Leo Ticheli]

This should put the speculation to rest!

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The words "RED", "Professional" and "Pocket" are capturing my imagination...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The only problem is those 3 words mean 3 very distinct things to me which I don't think are going to be delivered:

2K+ resolution @ S16mm or larger, Real interchangeable lenses and HV20 form factor respectively.

I've got this nagging suspicion it's not going to live up to that--mostly because the first two seem to be in direct conflict with the third... "it's pocket sized! But don't forget the 12" long PL zoom!" "It's pocket sized but you still need a focus puller!" That's what I want, but it sort of defeats the purpose of the marketing slogan "pocket sized"

[redman]

Maybe scarlet is the name of the image sensor and that could fit in you pocket.

[Jason Burkhimer]

2K/1080p
Nikon/Canon lens mount (optional red brand lens)
variable frame rates
over/undercrank
raw or maybe HDMI out to upcoming Cineform SOLID
CF

give me this all at a price range of 1,500 - 2,500 dollars and I will paint myself red and run the streets of Virginia Beach naked while screaming and flapping my arms and....

where am I?

seriously, if we look at what RED ONE was price wise compared to the other high end digital cinema cameras, and we assume the pricing for scarlet will be proportional with that, then 2,000 is the sweet spot I think. For what, Im believing this camera will be.:wink:

Edit: u got me stephen, haha

[Stephen Gentle]

seriously, if we look at what RED ONE was price wise compared to the other high end digital cinema cameras, and we assume the pricing for scarlet will be proportional with that, then 2,000 grand is the sweet spot I think. For what, Im believing this camera will be.:wink:

2,000 grand? I doubt anyone's going to pay two million dollars for a camera that "doesn't come close to the RED ONE" :tongue:

But seriously, I'd buy this thing in an instant if it was two grand - but I doubt it will be...

[Zack Birlew]

Okay, okay, I've been thinking about it. If RED made Scarlet with:

1. 1080p
2. Variable frame rates up to 60fps (or more I suppose if it includes a 720p mode)
3. Had the same sensitivity and image quality as the RED One albeit at 1080p
4. HV20 or smaller form factor
5. Interchangeable lenses, most likely C-mount with converter options
6. Records natively to CF cards
7. All at about $6,000 or less

We would all be drooling and whipping out cash, credit cards, checks, or left arms immediately. What has been the weakness of ALL prosumer cameras compared with something like the RED is the image the cameras produce and their respective compressed codecs. With increased sensitivity and dynamic range on an uncompressed format or barely compressed REDCODE works too of course, that would be all many indies are asking for, especially at 1080p. Granted, 2K would be the icing on the cake but I don't know how the pricing would be affected and it's hard to determine where the camera would fit in the RED lineup unless it does turn out to be some RED-spinoff of the SI-2K mini head. Combined with Jim's comments about the camera not being close to the RED One kind of cuts some things out, most likely being the resolution factor. Still, if the camera were similar to what was listed above, it would totally kill the <$10,000 prosumer competition and really shake things up.

[Milan Nikolic]

My wish list for SCARLET:
- 2k Full frame
- 1-100fps
- 1k Windowed 1-200fps
- highly light sensitive (1000 ASA)
- high quality fixed lens with excellent auto focus and 24 X zoom
- 2 ch 96kHz, 24bit Audio
- 3.5 inch 720p Built in LCD Display
- variable Data Rates
- CF Slot
- size of Canon HV 10

[red i wanabe]

Ok it doesn't have to be small. If it is under 5 grand, I'll take 3, even if it is bigger than my dsr 500.

I want to get 8 of them no 10! and shoot concerts live. Imagine I could rig up a van with a switcher, cameras and all that for about 200,000 grand, and bamoo!:w00t: Down convert to SD for broadcast. I bet nobody watching would be able to tell the diffderence between my van and a multimillion dollar sony hdc1500 equiped tractor trailer.:bleh:

Seriously with accesries like shoulder mounts, jibs, long and wide lenses, camplex, intercoms, and some form of recording all the camers independantly, I realy think this might work. And then during the week I use on of the cameras to make my movies. :sarcasm: !

[killfilm]

I think if Jim wants the market (which he already knows) is to do better than what panny did. Panny came out with the first affordable 24p camera and it rocked the indie world (dvx100) and followed with the HVX200. These two cams plus a couple from sony and jvc is what the study should be based on. Those cams have a huge following but unfortunately the companies are cheap with features.

Jim, let scarlet kick some ass and be the world's first to offer affordable 2k,
just like what red did which rocked its own market too.

please dont let it be literally a pocket size

[Paul Hazlett]

do you think Jim is just collecting our prospective desires, THEN is going to put together a prototype???

[killfilm]

but of course, because we are the market, and we know our desires, and not only is jim unique with his approach, he actually cares about the customer.

theres probably a prototype part way there and knowing Jim who listens to the user base, he'll probably incorporate at least some of the features requested.

[Lexicon]

do you think Jim is just collecting our prospective desires, THEN is going to put together a prototype???

Jim is a long-term thinker. He looks at everything he's done and the gear he's used, asks himself how it could have been better, and the rest just falls into place. I think he already knows exactly what is needed and what expectations need to be met. Scarlet (or at least the basic idea of it) has been on the books since the beginning from what I've read in Jim's interviews. He's definitely got Scarlet ready for all of us men (and I think there's a lady or two in the forum) here who are hot and bothered for her debut.

[sceneeast]

do you think Jim is just collecting our prospective desires, THEN is going to put together a prototype???

Yes! And I think it would be called RUBY and come out NAB 2009.

Bob

[Cyril Karwa]

Jim,
please think about all the third-world filmmakers who pray you everyday for a cheap camera.
thanks

Amen to that.

[Kholi Hicks]

Number One Request for Scarlet:

Have two-thousand (2,000) units packaged and ready to ship on launch date.



If it's as affordable as an HVX or EX-1, there's going to be one hell of a long line. Please, have thousands ready to be shipped out so that there's no year to two year long waiting list. Granted, I'm definitely not on the RED ONE waiting list, but I can imagine being on one where I can pay all cash for a Camera.

1080 or 2k. Hell, a Scarlet colored corn-dog on a stick: let's have plenty to go around.

[killfilm]

kholi is right and since there's probably gonna be so many units sold (if its like the hvx or ex1) i dont think anyone will want to wait a year to get theirs, as by then there's probably gonna be other alternatives which would be "good enough"

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

I think Scarlet will look a little like the video camera the two kids are holding in the print ads for the movie Cloverfield. Looks like a mini REDONE with a flip out screen...

Dylan Macleod, CSC
Cinematographer
Toronto, Canada
www.dylanmacleod.com

[tj williams]

thin enough for the pocket.-1/2" Daylite viewable Monitor on the rear side, choice of lens mounts on the front nikon/canon etc. with the active area of the chip slightly smaller than the covered area of the glass so there is look around. maybe it weighs about 1/2 a pound or less with a slot for flash media.
HD would be big enough but probably 2+ K to get adequate picture in HD from Beyer imager.

[Wayne Morellini]

Hi

An sale-person in an retailer told me they had heard/read about an Red that uses the sensor technology from the new Casio EX-F1 (I know shock even that such an rumour exists). Is there any truth in this?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I know shock even that such an rumour exists

It exists now. :D

[Axe]

Hi

An sale-person in an retailer told me they had heard/read about an Red that uses the sensor technology from the new Casio EX-F1 (I know shock even that such an rumour exists). Is there any truth in this?

A Sony IMX017CQE CMOS sensor in a Red Camera!!?

[Wayne Morellini]

A Sony IMX017CQE CMOS sensor in a Red Camera!!?

I doubt it, people are assuming that is the chip inside the Casio, but could it be something else similar. Anyway, asking if there was any truth to this, or is the salesperson just getting/giving mixed-up information.

[Jason A. Evans]

Has anybody seen or used this camera before?

http://www.iconixvideo.com/products.html

HD-RH1 1/3" Progressive 3CCD HD Camera


Multi-Format:
720p @ 24,25,30,50 and 60 Hz
1080i @ 50 & 60 Hz
1080p @ 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 Hz
700 Lines (720p), 900 Lines (1080i/p)
SDI, DVI-D, and Analog Outputs
14-Bit Quantization
Electronic Shutter and Enhancement
Programmable Gamma Function
Genlock and Remote Control

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Oh, and compatibility with RED Drive would also be nice.