RED RAY DECK?

[Michael Dalton]

Escuse my ignorance

But is Red Ray meant for 4k projection in the home or is it a also meant to be a broadcast device?

If we are going to have 4k TV's, don't we need the ability to deliver 4k first??? I have been bugging AJA and Black Magic to create a by-pass of the HD deck using SSD cards in the form of one of these shuttles of 4.4.4 capture devises. Something that has the ability to communicate with editing systems and broadcast decks so we can create broadcast masters for delivery. Lets face it, HD decks are made by old world thinkers. It's like Arri and sony trying to charge 100k for a 4k camera package. There is no reason why we don't have a simple SSD device that is capable of acting like HD deck where we can deliver on an SSD card. Thinking ahead, there is no reason why we can't have one that does 4k too, and for under 5k.

Or do we?

Everything I read about Red Ray sounds like it is almost what I'm asking for, except the ability to communicate with editing systems. It seems to be marketed to home use or theatres. Were missing a major step and that is production delivery. You redesigned scarlet at the last moment, why not a rework Red Ray to have a Pro model that will be the 4k broadcast delivery system. Red here is you ability to own yet another area of the broadcast world and much of your R&D is done. However don't exclude the smaller guys, lets do this for sub 10k, better at sub 5k. Thunderbolt/SSD.

It seems some what pointless for us to have 4k TV, but no professional system to deliver on that is cost effective for everyone that owns a camera. Now I don't know everything about red ray, so please add your comments.

[Jake Bastian]

It sounds like what you're asking for is a rework of the RedRocket, not RedRay. RedRocket would be perfect if it could output 4K realtime a la a blackmagic/kona/pick-your-favorite-video-card. Think of RedRay like a Bluray player except instead of shitty 1080p on a shitty optical disk it pushes out awesome 4K on something that could be as small as an SD card (or internal hard drive). And yes they will have pro and consumer models last I heard.

[Michael Dalton]

It sounds like what you're asking for is a rework of the RedRocket, not RedRay. RedRocket would be perfect if it could output 4K realtime a la a blackmagic/kona/pick-your-favorite-video-card. Think of RedRay like a Bluray player except instead of shitty 1080p on a shitty optical disk it pushes out awesome 4K on something that could be as small as an SD card (or internal hard drive). And yes they will have pro and consumer models last I heard.

Nope I'm thinking of something to deliver 4k, and broadcast 4k TV. A replacement for HD decks, and tapes where the media or master exists on an SSD (NOT A HDD) Life is fine if you make movies for the web or big screen, but if you a small producer shooting documentaries for TV there is no way to first master a 4k tv show start to finish, and there is now way to deliver a 4k master for broadcast. I would much rather submit a SSD then HD tape. Especially if I have the ability to make the SSD in my studio. Renting time at a post house to output 10 1/2 episodes onto tape, including materials will run me $5000. It's a huge waste in the this modern day of technology.

In the 1080 world we have HD Decks, where we deliver a master tape to the networks. For those who have never done this, the basic principle is you lay a show into tape with timecode, so a network can play it out. A master tape usually has bars and tone, a title slate, and first frame begins at set time. For commercials you lay ten seconds of black between acts. At the end you put textless versions of any graphic and supers. Audio channels 1&2 have Stereo Mixes, 3&4 Mix minus narration for translation (in Doc's) Currently for HD broadcast, the only way to do this is with a very expensive HD decks, or online edits at post houses with those very expensive decks. In Master control, they program the timecode from your tape into the machines, enter commercial breaks TC etc, and then control turns it into a seamless stream.

My criticism is why do we have to use HD decks and Tapes??? Has technology really missed this? With all these 4:4:4 recorders and SSD being able to do 4k, it seems logical that HD Decks can be replaced quickly by simple inexpensive SSD playback/recorder with TC in and out that communicates with editing systems. This way I can set up a timeline in Avid, and precisely lay that first frame to start at a specific TC on the SSD through device control. If I make changes I can insert edits into the master file just as I would with tape. The Ki-pro, Black Magic and even Red Ray are similar to this, except I don't think they can talk to edit systems.

We have this nice thread about 4k TV's today, but WHY?? We can't even deliver a show to network, and they have no way broadcast it. The future of 4k is not now, and without serious changes to a simplified 4k post work flow 4k TV is a long way off.

Would it not be great if we can take our edits in 4k, lay them to an SSD card with TC. Then be able to take that SSD to a post house or Distributor, and they can plug it into their SSD deck, and through an SDI out make HD, SD copies in what ever format they want? Filmmaker could even use that SSD to print to film, or stick into a red ray and projected in 4k.

[RayFrisby]

Hi Michael ! I have been pushing something like this for at least two years,
Here's my suggestion please feel free to add to it.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?64848-Sound-Devices-PIX-240-ProRes-DNxHD-Video-Recorder-with-EPIC&p=888226&highlight=#post888226

In my opinion Red needs to produce a stand-alone Red Rocket / Deck with built in
1.8" and 2.5" SSD Drive bays and CF reader with an internal Raid hard dive, with all current
connections including 3G SDI with Audio, Dual Thunderbolt, HDMI, USB, Firewire 800 and
ethernet port.
With a built in proxy module for different codecs and wireless streaming
it could also output in different codecs or stream directly to the internet.
If Red produces such a deck then any CF Card or SSD must be automatically
readable by both Mac and PC, so users can give SSD's and CF Cards directly to the end user.

If the unit could connect to Desktops and Laptops it could
export finished projects directly from the internal hard drive to
current decks such as HD CAM -D5 -DigiBeta etc... or export footage in
different codecs or stream directly to the web, as well as transcoding,
and monitoring output on film sets and other situations.

It would also act as a stand-alone player / ssd offload unit,
with built in export settings for different decks,
meaning it could be used with or without a computer.

The RED ROCKET / RED DECK would also fit into current Broadcast and Post Workflows as well
as Film festivals or other situations.

[Todd T]

You guys are describing exactly what RedRay is.

It is a playback device that can take a r3d file and play it back on a 4K display.
You can plug in CF cards, SSD modules, and HDDs to play back content.
It even has a network port, over which it can stream data from a remote network device.

The difference beteween the RedRay and RedRay Pro was the VTR controls for hooking it into an edit/control system

[Michael Dalton]

Todd It will be great if it is that, but I thought the push is for it to become a playback system and the difference between pro and now was home vs theatre. In theory a theatre would just need to hit a play button. Is it going to have device control and TC that will be compatible to output to a HD deck through SDI?

I hope your right about Red Ray pro being able to communicate with VTRs. If post houses have them, then broadcast masters will only require a dub to put it onto HD tapes cutting down post cost tremendously. I'm not sure how open Red is to have their codec become industry broadcast standard. Also when delivering material, I think you'd want it locked into a liner colour space.

I guess we also need a standard for digital tapeless deliveries for broadcast. It would be nice to have it fully red compatible and 4k. We really need the post end to catch up to the cameras. I feel like I'm using Avid AVR77 again and 1/4 rez.

[Stuart English]

We have this nice thread about 4k TV's today, but WHY?? We can't even deliver a show to network, and they have no way broadcast it. The future of 4k is not now, and without serious changes to a simplified 4k post work flow 4k TV is a long way off.

I think the solution to your dilemma is to change your phrase "4K TV's" to "4K Displays".

Then you can take the traditional broadcast delivery issue out of the equation.

There will be innovative new ways of getting 4K data to these displays, watch this space.

[Jean Déraps]

Wouldn't it be grand if the rumoured Apple TVs were 4K resolution and streamed 1080p/4K content via the internet using efficient REDRay™ compression...