Form factor

[Ace]

I thought Id start discussing in particular the ergonimic and hand held factors of this camera. This also includes weight distribution and add-ons for handheld steady work.

RED in the past has focused on shifting the paradigm, albeit that paradigm did need to touch home with every professional user. "No more gaffer tape" was a step in the right direction..

No one says you have to hold a camera a certain way, or that it should be a certain shape. When it comes to something physically interacting with the human body, formfactor is up for grabs!

Personally, id like to see a camera which is the opposite of the red one. One that needs NO cage or add ons to be able to be maneuvered and held from ANY side. If i want to hold it upside down left side up, hold it from the top, cradle it from the bottom, i should be able to without any modification. Handheld on the field just needs that flexibility.

2. It should look inconspicuous. RED one was a rocket launcher. Lets have a camera for covert operations. The James Bond of video cameras. The pierce bronsan/sean connery edition and not the daniel craig edition.

3. This is going to sound silly.. but can the camera have a gyro like swivel so that people with arthritis dont have to twist their wrists to keep it level... I will be posting some ideas of what id like the camera to have when i have some time..

any other ideas about hand holdability and form factor?

[JustMe]

Red Head?

[Shawn Nelson]

small enough to mount atop a sports helmet without hurting a snowboarder!

[Jaron Berman]

I agree with you. I think that especially in this day and age, ergonomics shouldn't be an after thought (or after-market). I caught a lot of flack for suggesting this the first time around. Perhaps with the "pocket" form factor, we'll see a design that's more accepting of the fact that humans will interact with this device. This actually shocked me.... wasn't the initial success of Oakley due to ergo handgrips?

For Red 1, there were a couple of cameras that really got ergonomics right (416, 235, LT), but RED took a different path. The good thing is that in the compact market, there's NO competition for "best ergonomics," they all suck. Blazing a new trail should be pretty easy to beat everything on the market for picture quality AND ergo.

[Erik Greensmith]

small enough to mount atop a sports helmet without hurting a snowboarder!

That might be pushing it a tad, Shawn. We don't want an SI mini. If itwas the ssize of a Red battery I'd be pretty stoked. I'd still like some Business Time electronics inside.

[Ace]

It astounds me that you you have to hold a hand held camera in a fixed joint axis, when your wrists have 6 unconstrained degrees of freedom, yet your wrists have to conform to this silly strap on the side of a box to keep the camera steady.

[Erik Greensmith]

So...one of these with 100x more bawlz and in a grownup size?

http://microfilmmaker.com/reviews/Issue25/Go_HD1.html

[Brook Willard]

I want it to fit right here over the RED logo.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1197957553.jpg

[Ace]

Oh Brook, your helmet reminded me... Its GOT to be CF!

[Shawn Nelson]

It needs to be able to easily fit atop a helmet for 2k recordings of snowboarding, hang-gliding, skydiving, surfing, etc. The main unit should only output raw then have a separate process and store module (about the size of a Red battery) that would crunch the data into R3D files on a CF module. That way you can wear the process module on your back.

Think about it! Red doesn't merely want to increment the field, they want to revolutionize it. The field really lacks high-quality small cameras. You can't get good theatrical-quality shots of helmet-cam stuff! Red could break that wide open and give us a whole range of shots never before possible!

[Shawn Nelson]

I want it to fit right here over the RED logo.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/5_1197957553.jpg

Nice! Is that hang-gliding or skydiving?

[number6]

I think what I want is a group of people who have no pre-conceived notion of how a small camera is made, to make one. When you start from an idea and not an established "look", you can be inventive. I can't say what it should be like because that would be creating a "oner"... a camera that was right for me. Just make it work exceptionally well and I will conform to it. I'm a walking adapter.

[Erik Greensmith]

It needs to be able to easily fit atop a helmet for 2k recordings of snowboarding, hang-gliding, skydiving, surfing, etc. The main unit should only output raw then have a separate process and store module (about the size of a Red battery) that would crunch the data into R3D files on a CF module. That way you can wear the process module on your back.

Think about it! Red doesn't merely want to increment the field, they want to revolutionize it. The field really lacks high-quality small cameras. You can't get good theatrical-quality shots of helmet-cam stuff! Red could break that wide open and give us a whole range of shots never before possible!

What about the Silicon Image 2K Mini?

[Brook Willard]

Nice! Is that hang-gliding or skydiving?

Skydiving, of course. :ninja:

[Ace]

May get a lot of heat for this, but heres something I quickly put together..What if the form factor was a ball. Something you could hold from any side, and still maintain the ergonomic shape of your hand (in a cupping position). There would be a strap ofcourse. And with the swivelling strap, it would mean you could hold this thing whichever way you wanted. From the top, side, bottom back, whilst having it strapped. Maybe forget about holding the actual ball and hold the lens itself for addes stability. Oh and that glowing ring around it, thats your ring light. It just seems to me when you hold your hand in a grabbing position, its not in the shape of a square, its not in the shape of a cylinder, its in the shape of a ball..

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd209/asalama1/ballidea.jpg

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I definitely want the lens mount and sensor to detach for remote placement. Take modular to a whole new level.

Have a 'processor' block, sensor block, lcd block, battery block and storage block. And have them all snap together... or apart to combine into a convenient form factor or else break off as needed.

[Anders Holck]

Some might prefer a "formfactor" like this:
http://www.popcornnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/scarlettjohansson.jpg

[Weston Ford]

Nice design acehole. I would like it if scarlett looked something like that.

[chuckt]

I thought Id start discussing in particular the ergonimic and hand held factors of this camera. This also includes weight distribution and add-ons for handheld steady work.


RED is focussed on getting 4K/24p for now. Once they establish the new platform, may be the next generation might be more ergonomic. With built in LCD screen, EVF, Microphone, etc.

Now you can appreciate why Sony, Panasonic and others spend millions on designing ergonomic forms.
I heard Panasonic is using the HVX form for their 4K/24p 2/3" lens camcoder coming out in 2008.
Haven't heard what design Sony would adopt. Probably one of their existing forms.

[Zak Forsman]

Some might prefer a "formfactor" like this:
http://www.popcornnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/scarlettjohansson.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5042/picture1ha7.jpg

i don't see a difference.













oh wait... i looked up. i see it now.

[Ace]

RED is focussed on getting 4K/24p for now. Once they establish the new platform, may be the next generation might be more ergonomic. With built in LCD screen, EVF, Microphone, etc.

Now you can appreciate why Sony, Panasonic and others spend millions on designing ergonomic forms.
I heard Panasonic is using the HVX form for their 4K/24p 2/3" lens camcoder coming out in 2008.
Haven't heard what design Sony would adopt. Probably one of their existing forms.

Not sure what youve heard, but Scarlett wont be competing with the RED one. This may certainly mean no 4k. Secondly, I'm sorry, but a pocket cam is ALL about ergonomics, as hand held usage plays a big role. Thirdly, where did you get HVX from? Its a pocket camera. HVX shouldnt even be on the tables as far as form factor goes.. I fail to see the HVX fitting in anybodies pocket or pockets. Unless you happen to be Jabba the hutt.

[Jaron Berman]

Then again, you may recall the early prototypes of the RED 1 that generated such excitement - "It's smaller than a DVX, but it's s35 and 4K!" Things change...

[Stephen Williams]

Not sure what youve heard, but Scarlett wont be competing with the RED one.

Hi,

Many people are moving up from HVX to Red one, also people are planning to use Red for ENG & EFP (is Gibby watching) work. IMHO Scarlet will be in competition to Red one and every other video camera ever made

Stephen

[Ace]

Hi,

Many people are moving up from HVX to Red one, also people are planning to use Red for ENG & EFP (is Gibby watching) work. IMHO Scarlet will be in competition to Red one and every other video camera ever made

Stephen

I agree absolutely. I just don't think in terms of technical specs it will be in competition. That would be market cannibalism for red.

Whether it adopts the s35mm standard or not will determine a lot of things for this camera. IMHO, i care less about 4k than I do about 35mm photography.

[Harry Clark]

Hey Acehole, nice render!
imthatoneguy, I agree that whatever goes into processing and storing the image could be at the end of a cable. I told this to the guys at Dalsa at a seminar a while back... "you know, if just the lensboard and sensor could be tethered by a cable, who cares where the refrigerator goes?" or something like that. They did not see the need for this.
Imagine Acehole's ball, and then whatever "guts" you need to process the image in a Red One sized (not shaped) box that could go in a fanny pack or whatever. And not just for skydiving. Car shots, location shots where you can't move a wall... I can't tell you how many times I've literally jammed a camera in the corner of a kitchen or bathroom...
I know that holding "the ball" seems like a good idea, but how about a 1/4"-20 or 3/8"-16 tapped hole on top, bottom, and back? Mounting a sphere will require some sort of hard screw-in points.
And why not 4K? Did Jim say that it would be "cheaper"? Or just "smaller"? What if it was MOS? Or limited speed changes? No EVF and a strange form factor alone might ensure that it won't cannibalize Red One, at least on movies or commercials...
Cheers,
Harry

[Hrvoje Simic]

Since the wrist movement is the most problematic factor concerning shake with a camera size like this, I believe additional adapter for constraining its movement would be very useful.

Also - to keep the size as small as possible most of the connectors should be moved to either docking station or wearable breakout box. You could also think about going with modularity even further. For example - sensor & controls in the hand while compression electronics and solid state media in the wearable modules- connected via fiber-optic.

Also I think it would be very useful if CF reader and SSD modules could be swappable.

The other form factor besides Ace's design (which should be great for the most of the situations provided it has a good grip and available attachments for mounting) could be gun style. With this form it would be useful to allow the handle to rotate, depending on a shooting angle.

In terms of balance I don't see any other options of holding the camera. Usual side grip as seen on most of the camera's this size should be out of the question.

[Hrvoje Simic]

And yeah, great job, Ace.

[Shawn Nelson]

Nice Ace! now if that ball just was tethered to the module that would process and dump to CF we'd have a full unit.

Oh, and I like the form compare picture, I definitely see the source of inspiration. :-)

[Ace]

Huh? I thought that would be all done in the camera.. If the technology is small enough then why not.

[Clint Johnson]

Some might prefer a "formfactor" like this:
http://www.popcornnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/scarlettjohansson.jpg

That looks extremely ergonomic but it is definitely not pocket sized. And while stereo for 3D would be a prime target it shouldn't be the default.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Huh? I thought that would be all done in the camera.. If the technology is small enough then why not.

No reason not do it if it's possible.
However, if we are talking about all the connectors it could get very messy putting them all onto Scarlet. Wearable breakout box is a must IMO.

[Videoteque73]

Easy to WORK in a Merlin Steadicam!!!

[Nathan Garofalos]

Maybe when they say RED Mini, they literally mean it, like its a RED ONE body, but was put in front of a shrink ray so its the same size, just scaled down. The brackets for connecting all the accessories would all be in the same spots so you can swap them between cameras.

[Ace]

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6420/scarlett59uq1pj.jpg


HUGE image... don't inline! ~Brook

[Jeff Kilgroe]

May get a lot of heat for this, but heres something I quickly put together..What if the form factor was a ball. Something you could hold from any side, and still maintain the ergonomic shape of your hand (in a cupping position).

:whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

http://www.appliedvisual.com/redimages/tex_nab_2007.jpg

Stole the pic from engadget... Anyway, I asked way back when if the body of "Tex" (the spider) could potentially be a possible housing for a future camera. Someone told me "no". But still fun to think about. Actually, I'm still thinking there's a possibility. Perhaps "Scarlet" is a pocket camera in that the body itself can fit in a pocket. But look at Tex... Ample room for a lens mount. Very compact. Could attach accessory handles or a pistol grip if wanted. Looks like 15mm (maybe even 19mm) rods could be accommodated with something similar to those bulbous protrusions on the base of Tex's body.

...Just speculatin'

[Cüneyt Kaya]

why cant we buy souvenirs like this ( which one of those two you can guess :))

oh no scarlet has a highway between heir eyebrows

[Hrvoje Simic]

Okay, seriously Red crew.....Tex is way too cool not to be on a t-shirt AND a poster.

[Kyle Mallory]

Ace,

I think you're on to something with the "orb" design. I think you need something though to keep the orientation inline. Even before I saw your render, I imagined something like an SLR body/grip with a sphere embedded inside. Essentially what you've rendered, but add an SLR-style grip around the outside. The camera could basically roll 360', and pitch/yaw about 30', within the grip. Perhaps there are 'snaps' at 15' intervals, so you can easily align the camera back to a "default" orientation for those moments when you bolt it to a set of sticks.

[Gene Crucean]

Yeah that design reminds me of the round mouse Apple was selling for a while.

Acehole, how would you handle an LCD on that thing?

[Nathan Garofalos]

That spider RED thing, looks like it would be a cool RC toy car or something you would have seen on BattleBots like 6 years ago. But it does appear that a lens could be attached to the front, some 15mm rods underneath, an LCD would be on top being able to rotate however you want. Or it would be right on the back like a regular DSLR camera. Or on the back would be the menu screen like the RED ONE.

[Jeremy Hughes]

The whole ball thing would be great if you're holding it with one hand. I can see that. But what about holding it with both hands? Will it be big enough for people with large hands to hold it properly with both hands and small enough for people with small hands to hold it with one hand? Seems to unnatrual. Where do you hold it? The back? The side?

What does seem natrual is like an old fashion boat steering wheel.