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Jannard
01-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

Chris Nuzzaco
01-02-2008, 08:54 PM
So wait a second here.... I'm a tee bit confused. Are you going to sell Scarlet to Red One reservation holders first?

OR

Are you going to take reservations for Scarlet?

Thanks,

Stephen Gentle
01-02-2008, 08:55 PM
I'm guessing they will get a chance to reserve one before the rest of the world does...?

JustMe
01-02-2008, 08:56 PM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

Bad move...let em get in line

Ivan G
01-02-2008, 08:56 PM
This thread is going to get very interesting:whistling:

Shawn Nelson
01-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Jim, I want Scarlet #27!

Jannard
01-02-2008, 08:59 PM
The "believers" have put up with a lot... from delays to beta cameras. It is only fair they get a 1st crack. Although we do expect to sell a lot more Scarlets so production will be high from the beginning. And "she" will be completely finished before one leaves the door.

Jim

JustMe
01-02-2008, 09:01 PM
give me 121 should be safe

Chris Nuzzaco
01-02-2008, 09:01 PM
Any idea of when the release will be? Spring 2009?

Jannard
01-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Any idea of when the release will be? Spring 2009?

Better come to NAB for the scoop...

Jim

JustMe
01-02-2008, 09:03 PM
12+1= 13

Chris Nuzzaco
01-02-2008, 09:08 PM
Better come to NAB for the scoop...

Jim

Now you got me thinking Jim... "Better to come to NAB for the scoop...." as in scoop up my newest Red camera???

:love:

Chris Nuzzaco
01-02-2008, 09:16 PM
Ok I've been thinking some more about this....

Perhaps Scarlet has been in development since Day 1 at Red, and they just never said a single word about it till NAB 2007.

This little gem could be on sale very soon.

Total industry sneak attack!

.... at least thats what I'm hoping for.

Phil Bates
01-02-2008, 09:51 PM
I think NAB attendance just got a 20% boost.

Phil
www.artbeats.com

Larry McKee
01-02-2008, 09:52 PM
Better come to NAB for the scoop...

Jim

I hope you have a bigger booth this year. Maybe take over Sony's old space. They won't be needing that much room anymore. :cold:

Mark Pedersen
01-02-2008, 09:56 PM
LOL. Good one.

M

Emanuel A.
01-02-2008, 10:13 PM
Jim, I want Scarlet #27!L O L

Emanuel A.
01-02-2008, 10:14 PM
Better come to NAB for the scoop...

JimJim, you are a such a good teaser... :)

EDIT -- Hey, I want my Scarlet #111 too! LMAO

Ken K
01-02-2008, 10:17 PM
This definitely sounds like a scam to me.

I'll take two this time, please! :biggrin:

Brook Willard
01-02-2008, 10:31 PM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders.
B-b-b-but...

Casey Green
01-02-2008, 10:39 PM
The "believers" have put up with a lot... from delays to beta cameras. It is only fair they get a 1st crack. Although we do expect to sell a lot more Scarlets so production will be high from the beginning. And "she" will be completely finished before one leaves the door.

Jim

There are many believers that just can't quite afford a RED ONE just yet, but were along for the ride from the start. :)

Please don't forget us.

Casey Green
01-02-2008, 10:50 PM
By the way, Jim... I love the choice of the name, Scarlet.

You might recall it was the name I chose for the RED ONE that I will own someday, as stated in one of my posts dating back to July:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=59164#post59164

:love:

Gavin Greenwalt
01-02-2008, 11:40 PM
B-b-b-but...

Brook I've figured it out! We split the cost of a reservation use that to get a scarlet reservation and then immediately cancel our RED reservation.

Sam Druckerman
01-03-2008, 01:00 AM
B-b-b-but...

No worries, Brook.

I'll order two, one for me and one to.........


rent to you .... LOL


This time I want #19, sorry Blair..... but#19, she must be mine:-)

Patrick Tresch
01-03-2008, 01:12 AM
I understand now this SPECULATION THREAD!!!!

Any REDONE reservation holder wants to sell his priority to be in line for Scralet?

Bidding price starts at 1000$
1500$...
Want more?

Please Jim... I understand your core testing team to be the first 1-50 reservation holder but do I have to buy a REDONE to get in line??? Wainting untill number >5000 will make me have my Scarlett end 2010!

Thanks

Pat

Patrick Tresch
01-03-2008, 01:14 AM
OOoooops! I thought I was on the other thread called "Scarlet Speculation Thread..."

Pat

Rob Lohman
01-03-2008, 01:16 AM
Can I get four please?

Simon Blackledge
01-03-2008, 01:22 AM
building a time slice rig Rob? :)

Rob Lohman
01-03-2008, 01:57 AM
you'll find that out later ;)

Robert Frank
01-03-2008, 02:07 AM
The "believers" have put up with a lot... from delays to beta cameras. It is only fair they get a 1st crack. Although we do expect to sell a lot more Scarlets so production will be high from the beginning. And "she" will be completely finished before one leaves the door.

Jim

I'm *very* interested in Scarlet. Keep us posted on how to pre-order one.

BTW are you familiar with Metric-Halo? I had pre-ordered their Firewire audio interface, the "2882+DSP" (the first FW audio interface ever) and waited about a year to get it. It is still a high end interface 5 years later, and they keep upgrading it via firmware downloads and now a new DSP card upgrade.

They rewarded the early adopters of the original interface with a new (ULN-2) model interface sometime later at a huge discount.

RED reminds me in many ways of the Metric-Halo story.

vincelucero
01-03-2008, 02:29 AM
The RED booth at NAB 2008 is going to look like Best Buy on a Black Friday... I got my sleeping bag and credit card ready!

Michael Mann
01-03-2008, 05:23 AM
May I trade in my RED ONE reservations (#1,334 plus zoom #494) for a SCARLET reservation?

Jason Diamond
01-03-2008, 05:40 AM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

i appreciate that kind of loyalty to the early adopters, its nice to see a company of the people (of sorts) that is excited about a user base exploring their product beyond even its intended form and function. keep it up cant wait to get in line once again!

j

Radoslav Karapetkov
01-03-2008, 07:49 AM
Priority to people registered on RedUser.Net? :usd:

Noah Kadner
01-03-2008, 07:55 AM
Will it be direct from Red only or will it go out to dealers? Because my next question would be- where do I sign up to deal. :)

-Noah

Daniel Reichenbach
01-03-2008, 10:48 AM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

Very easy: You take the reservation Nr. from the first believers, offer them in my case a Scarlet 222, give me let's say two weeks to think about a reservation, if yes, I get the scarlet 222, if no you put the 222 back on the market.

Something like this.

Thom Steinhoff
01-03-2008, 10:57 AM
Very easy: You take the reservation Nr. from the first believers, offer them in my case a Scarlet 222, give me let's say two weeks to think about a reservation, if yes, I get the scarlet 222, if no you put the 222 back on the market.

Something like this.

I like this idea. Maybe you get an e-mail explaining that you have two weeks to make your decision:

1) Yes! Give me the same Res number (for sentimental reasons)

2) Yes! Give me the next available number (move me higher on the list!)

3) Pass

This way, you take care of the early adopters.

I guess you could do the same thing with the order we signed up for Red User as that takes care of the loyal poor as well.

Patrick Tresch
01-03-2008, 10:59 AM
, if no you put the 222 back on the market.
Something like this.

Daniel,

You have your buyer here...!!! :bleh:

Patrick

Daniel Reichenbach
01-03-2008, 11:14 AM
Daniel,

You have your buyer here...!!! :bleh:

Patrick

Don't think you have a chance, but you may play with it, promise :tongue:

Ricardo Mehedff
01-03-2008, 11:14 AM
any photos or renders of this little gem yet?

Patrick Tresch
01-03-2008, 11:16 AM
Don't think you have a chance, but you may play with it, promise :tongue:

Thanks Daniel.

You made my day!!!!

Pat

William Robinette
01-03-2008, 11:21 AM
I would echo the comment made earlier to not forget all those who have followed this project from its conception but who don't have the financial means or (even more basically) the need for a Red One.

I for one will be at NAB '08 and will be fighting the masses for a space in that reservation line for Scarlet even though I have no interest (read: means) of acquiring a Red One.

jaadgy akanni
01-03-2008, 11:28 AM
There are many believers that just can't quite afford a RED ONE just yet, but were along for the ride from the start. :)

Please don't forget us.

I'm one of those. Having been faithful from the beginning should make us worthy of being early Scarlet rez-holders. Please Jim :-)

planet e
01-03-2008, 01:02 PM
i think the fact that he is even building this mini-camera, having fulfilled his own personal dream and specs with RED ONE, is evidence enough that he has not forgotten the folks who can't afford RED ONE.

there are a lot of people for whom RED ONE was a big stretch and a risk. the real proof of loyalty to the dream is in the pudding, period. i didn't have the money for this camera in the bank when i put down my thousand bucks. i do now. in fact, i have the money for 2 cameras, which i can't wait to spend. jim gave everyone equal time opportunity--and plenty of it--to earn the money for a RED ONE. he guaranteed my thousand bucks plus 10%. nice. and gave me enough lead time to find a way to pay for it.

some folks, who couldn't or didn't fulfill their orders--now are selling theirs. my whole business endeavor may fail (looking good so far, but it may very well fail...i'll know 3-5 years from delivery how it all works out).

you can't compare hanging out on a forum with the actual risks that others are taking to pay for these cameras and then trying to build a business and a decent ROI, using this great tool. you just can't.

cckid
01-03-2008, 01:17 PM
Scarlet....hmmmm...she sounds like a hottie...she hasn't even appeared and everyone is goin nuts over here....damn I want one too....only for me....precious....

and now for real...red one is a bit of far stretch for me...but scarlett just might be the perfect gal...sorry camera for my needs....when can the early beleivers expect that reservations will be possible...

Jason Wingrove
01-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Jim it would be awesome if you posted somehow a video of your announcement, a stream of your 'Jimnote' would be great for those unable to attend?

Jason Wingrove
01-03-2008, 01:32 PM
Preferences for red one res. holders would be totally justified but a real bummer, you could be first on the list for a scarlet and find yourself #3500 (spoken like a true non red one reservation holder of course- dang)

Jim Geduldick
01-03-2008, 01:34 PM
I will just hope i can get my hands on one before end of 2008 .
Spec wise i would love 2k, HD SDI, Flash based record to CF or RED drive , EVF or LCD,
similar mounting options as the cages for this little one to be able to mount it in various ways .

Mathew Mackereth
01-03-2008, 03:32 PM
to echo again -

I firmly agree that reservation holders have invested in RED - and great to see this recognised by the RED team.

as i'm still currently finishing a degree - I'm not in a financial position at the moment to reserve a red one + accessories and lenses, but have followed progress from inception to our first working shoot with a red one camera earlier this week.

it would be wonderful for RedUsers to also have an option to reserve scarlet after the reservation holders of red one have their chance.

in the meantime i'll keep saving - the Red One was a joy to use...

IAN SUN
01-03-2008, 05:09 PM
The "believers" have put up with a lot... from delays to beta cameras. It is only fair they get a 1st crack. Although we do expect to sell a lot more Scarlets so production will be high from the beginning. And "she" will be completely finished before one leaves the door.

Jim

Jim, I love the way you think!

Sign me up for 2.

Ketch Rossi
01-03-2008, 05:18 PM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

I would think that e-mails could be sent out to the RED ONE reservation (and current owners) in the order of their reservation to get first crack on reserving Scarlet.

I know I'll be at NAB 08 and probably with one of my RED's to film the event(only if allowed)


Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 06:08 PM
What if you have been a believer in RED since the begining, you just couldn't afford to buy a RED ONE. Maybe if you are a student filmmaker you could get an early reservation or even a special student filmmaker discount?!?!?!?!??!?!

Dan Blanchett
01-03-2008, 07:46 PM
Sounds like the quantities are going to be such that it may be a moot point who has a reservation...anyone who wants this camera will likely get it and hopefully in short order. Having said that, I personally think it should be available to everyone on a first come, first serve basis. There are many reasons outside of "true belief" why a person may not have jumped on board with RED One from day one, some of which have already been mentioned here. While it's nice to have preferential treatment, I think there is a limit to what early adopters should expect when it comes to brand new products that are not accessories, and in the long run I think RED will build more good will by not continuing to reinforce this separation.

Just my opinion, and I speak for only myself. And having stated it, I'll take two Scarlet cameras please...

Paul Hazlett
01-03-2008, 07:52 PM
No worries, Brook.

I'll order two, one for me and one to.........


rent to you .... LOL


This time I want #19, sorry Blair..... but#19, she must be mine:-)

DAMN SAM!!!,

How can you just toy with a guys soul like that....heheheh

Shawn Nelson
01-03-2008, 07:53 PM
What if you have been a believer in RED since the begining, you just couldn't afford to buy a RED ONE. Maybe if you are a student filmmaker you could get an early reservation or even a special student filmmaker discount?!?!?!?!??!?!

Red's body is already on razor thin margins, if not being a loss leader outright, he can't afford to give student discounts.

I have a feeling that the reservation system for Scarlet won't mean as much. Jim has said he won't ship until Scarlet is 100% done, which means the time lapse from Scarlet #1 and #1000 could be, a month.

brandon herman
01-03-2008, 08:28 PM
As has been mentioned, there are a lot of us who have been believers from the start, who just couldn't afford the $17,500 for camera + the additional $10,000 to $40,000 to realistically use it, edit, maintain, etc... However, I've been talking up the camera to established filmmakers, DPs, producers, etc, since the first time I heard about the camera. I was visiting red.com when it was a logo and a picture of race cars on a white background. I check this site around five times a week or more, reading everything I can to understand the camera. And I have a few shoots coming up where I plan on renting the Red One. And I'm sure there are many out there in the same boat.

At the same time, there are a few members of this board who didn't need to think twice about dropping a $1,000 deposit, whether they really believed in the project or not. (To some of them, even $65,000 is a casual investment in equipment.) I'm certain there were people who thought they would almost certainly get their $1,000 back when the whole thing fell apart, but bet on a long shot and are now kind of stunned that a camera is coming their way. (I've read many posts saying "we should have a such-and-such, and I'd gladly pay an extra $20,000 for it.")

I do think it's fair to allow current owners (and those with pre-orders) to get first dibs, although I would PREFER that it's first-come-first-served.

But my real point is that having money shouldn't be the sole criteria for judging "belief." Clearly there is overlap, but there are many poor believers (like me) and many doubters who are pretty well-off.

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 08:55 PM
But my real point is that having money shouldn't be the sole criteria for judging "belief." Clearly there is overlap, but there are many poor believers (like me) and many doubters who are pretty well-off.

That's well said. There isn't a way of judging "belief". I know Ill be spending just about all my money I have saved up since I was sophomore or junior in high school; This was back when I wanted an XL2 and it had just came out. My parents made a deal with me that if I got straight A's they would let ME buy the camera with the money I had been saving up. Then my mom and dad bought if to surprise me after 3 years of all A's and then a bad grade in calculus. Then RED was introduced and I started following it since. Now I'm putting all the money I make from stringing tennis rackets into that account to buy the camcorder, or rent one for a film I want to do. Or shoot a short to get more funding for the feature. Now that Scarlet is introduced, I'll probably buy one if I can afford it, and if it is what I am looking for in a new camera... But just because I couldn't afford to buy a RED ONE shouldn't restrain me from buying a Scarlet.

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 09:01 PM
But my real point is that having money shouldn't be the sole criteria for judging "belief." Clearly there is overlap, but there are many poor believers (like me) and many doubters who are pretty well-off.

That's well said. There isn't a way of judging "belief". I know Ill be spending just about all my money I have saved up since I was sophomore or junior in high school; This was back when I wanted an XL2 and it had just came out. My parents made a deal with me that if I got straight A's they would let ME buy the camera with the money I had been saving up. Then my mom and dad bought if to surprise me after 3 years of all A's and then a bad grade in calculus. Then RED was introduced and I started following it since. Now I'm putting all the money I make from stringing tennis rackets into that account to buy the camcorder, or rent one for a film I want to do. Or shoot a short to get more funding for the feature. Now that Scarlet is introduced, I'll probably buy one if I can afford it, and if it is what I am looking for in a new camera... But just because I couldn't afford to buy a RED ONE shouldn't restrain me from buying a Scarlet.

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Whoops, sorry for the double post... That was on accident.

Zack Birlew
01-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Well, it isn't entirely about money. Some people took a chance with their reservations, others could afford to risk it, and there are those, like myself, who were skeptical at first and waited for the goods (ie. frame grabs, renders, ect.) before plunking down a reservation. The camera, in my case, is a massive investment, especially considering that I never imagined I would buy a camera over $6,000. But the RED can do more than any other, so the investment was worth it. Because I'm making a heavy financial investment, I appreciate wholeheartedly any sort of perks that come with investing in the RED company itself. If RED were to make a cheaper camera that could satisfy my artistic needs shortly after already investing in their more expensive flagship product and not offering me any advanced notice or advanced priority to get one, what would that say about them as a company? Loyalty between a customer and a business is most successful when it goes both ways.

I'm not saying I'll buy a Scarlet right on the spot but I'm not saying that I won't get one. It depends on what it is and what it can do for me. As Jim has said, us reservation holders have gone through a lot with delays, issues, and feverish anticipation. Some projects have come and gone where I could have used the RED to great effect, especially this last school semester where I had a ton of film production classes. I saw my camera go from late August to early September delivery to November then to December and now sometime in the first half of 2008. New RED products are literally around the corner, some supposedly arriving this month, like the Nikon mount, and still I haven't had a chance to recieve and use my RED. Still, I take it all with a smile because of all the fantastic things people are doing with the RED, especially big 'ol Hollywood productions using the camera for certain things. With all of this going on, the least RED can do, even though they've already done above and beyond more than any other company has done to help all of us REDUsers as filmmakers, is to give us first peek at their latest.

As has been said hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times by now, thank you RED Team for everything!:sorcerer:

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 10:23 PM
What college do you go to?

Zack Birlew
01-03-2008, 10:26 PM
UNLV, why?

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 10:30 PM
I was wondering what film students at what schools were using for equipment.

Zack Birlew
01-03-2008, 10:36 PM
Oh, well, I wish we were using better stuff. The best is DVX's for the students and the film department keeps an HVX and Varicam for their own projects. I'm the only one getting a RED as far as I know. A DP buddy of mine had a chance to work with a RED a few months back, besides me and him we're the only ones who have actually seen the RED in person, everyone else is just now learning what the RED actually is!

Nathan Garofalos
01-03-2008, 10:42 PM
I know what you mean. I try to talk with people, and they think I'm like speaking a foreign language. I told them I worked on 2 sets with a RED, and they automatically thought it was a lie cause they didn't know it existed and thought I made it up. I wish I could afford a RED ONE. Your lucky. I'm going to purchase a Scarlet if its within my price range and somewhat what I would like it to be. I shoot on an XL2, and that's SD... Do you have your own lights you can use?

Scarlet would be a good camera for the student filmmaker, if its cheap enough.

Craig Bowman
01-04-2008, 02:10 AM
I was wondering what film students at what schools were using for equipment.

If your wondering are any schools going to have their students using Red anytime soon and teaching D-Cinema courses?

Its going to depend on the administration.

At the local Centre for Arts and Technology here in Kelowna, the answer is a no brainer. Just try and stop them! (Reds are arriving, students are estatic)

sceneeast
01-04-2008, 02:47 AM
Preferences for red one res. holders would be totally justified but a real bummer, you could be first on the list for a scarlet and find yourself #3500 (spoken like a true non red one reservation holder of course- dang)

I agree, but see the justification in giving the owner’s/reservation holders first choice to get Scarlet. But they should only be allow to order the number of Scarlet’s equal to number of RED One’s they have or that are on order, not in quantity, on the first go around in order to give the rest of us a chance of getting a Scarlet in a reasonable time frame.

Bob

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 08:43 AM
The typical early adopter assumes great risk and achieves great reward... sometimes.

planet e
01-04-2008, 09:59 AM
I agree, but see the justification in giving the owner’s/reservation holders first choice to get Scarlet. But they should only be allow to order the number of Scarlet’s equal to number of RED One’s they have or that are on order, not in quantity, on the first go around in order to give the rest of us a chance of getting a Scarlet in a reasonable time frame.

Bob

that seems fair, as a holder of 2 reservations, i would even go so far as to extend the option to only the early reservation holders who entered in the first, original open reservation round.

i have 2 reservations, one i made in the original open reservation round and one that i made when jim re-opened reservations at a later date. i would say that only the 1st reservation should actually qualify for any preferential treatment, because it was made at a time of pure blind faith, the other one came a little later, when it all seemed more ready to be realized (and therefore involved less risk...)

that would put only roughly 1000 cameras ahead of the pack, which, if jim is planning to have ramped production before a release, as he says, would put the SCARLETs into the open market only about 2 months later.

that doesn't seem so bad....(especially to early reservation holders who have been patient on a scale of years. waiting an extra 2 months is nothing!....)

just some ideas....

certainly the $2500 rebate and the 110% money-back guarantees are reward enough for me, and if that's all jim gave us, i would have no complaints whatsoever!

i do, however, take issue with people equating their message board speculation, well after the fact of the camera's delivery, with an actual investment.

i don't care how poor you are, $1,000 down with a 110% guaranteed return, is affordable to just about any adult in this country and certainly any indie. it may involve risk, it may involve sacrifice, but anyone who can't put down $1,000 with the promise of getting $1,100 back, while they meanwhile try to find the money while the camera is being developed, just isn't as invested as the person who does.

playing the game is not the same as watching from the sidelines, whether the game is blackjack, football, or RED-watching...

vincelucero
01-04-2008, 10:53 AM
Some good ideas planet e. I agree that those who dropped the $1K deposit at the first round should get first crack.

But 110% money back, really? I didn't know that. Maybe if I order a few Reds and return them all I could make enough for a lens.

Which leads me to this point: The camera is not the only thing you need to buy. We're talking $17,500 for the body...and another $10-40K for accessories. $5K tripod, $3K mattebox, $1500 filters, $1K follow focus, etc., etc. And lenses are an entirely different ballgame. I know a lot of indies who can't afford a $30K camera package. (At least you can buy 3 Reds for the price of one Sony F900).

Scarlet on the other hand may well be a complete package for under $14K. Anything under $8K and Sony's gonna be pissed!!! :)

vincelucero
01-04-2008, 11:12 AM
That said, to all those indies out there who don't have enough, get some friends together and form a Scarlet or Red coalition. Share the costs but try to keep it under 4 members. Draw up papers to make sure you all get equal time on your projects and make sure there is a clause that stipulates what happens when one person wants out of the deal.

Keep it legal at the beginning so there's no slippery slope. You may think it's all good and your pal would never turn on you. But I've seen good friends gone bad and it's ugly.

Kholi Hicks
01-04-2008, 11:13 AM
There are many believers that just can't quite afford a RED ONE just yet, but were along for the ride from the start. :)

Please don't forget us.

Uhm, yeah.


The thought that current reservation owners are the ones to get first cracks at reservations is kinda ... odd? Noble, loyal, but that's kinda unfair to the rest of the community that couldn't afford the 30k+ plus investment.

I hope this definitely changes by NAB, because I'll be there camping out.

Casey Green
01-04-2008, 11:22 AM
...i don't care how poor you are, $1,000 down with a 110% guaranteed return, is affordable to just about any adult in this country and certainly any indie. it may involve risk, it may involve sacrifice, but anyone who can't put down $1,000 with the promise of getting $1,100 back, while they meanwhile try to find the money while the camera is being developed, just isn't as invested as the person who does...


It's not about the $1000. Its about the $17,500 + Lens(es) + Accessories. Many basic setups come to be in to $35k-$55k range (not including post workflow).

I don't go out reserving Steadicam Rigs or Cranes just because I really want to have them and can afford the down payment (refundable or not). Especially when there is another method to achieving the same goals, called renting. Don't get me wrong, owning a RED ONE is a dream of mine and many others here that just are not currently in the financial position to pull the trigger.

I don't think that should have anything to do with where folks like us fall in line for a more affordable RED. I know many here are extremely invested in RED, and are in the same boat... a certain guy named Brook comes to mind.

:red_bandana:

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 02:34 PM
I don't know- people pay more than 55k for a car that won't have the same kind of creative (and money making) potential as the RED One- There are lots of options for a custom lease on equipment with a low percentage rate and low buyout at the end (and by low I mean it's usually one dollar- even on expensive equipment). You can also find investors- or build the cost into a budget for a project, share the cost with a group of filmmakers, etc.

My point is that if there were someone who really wanted the gear it could happen.

planet e
01-04-2008, 02:34 PM
yes exactly, and look how resourceful brook has been, he's had his hands on RED more than almost anyone--and that is my point. just because you think you can't afford something doesn't mean anything.

if i had my cameras today, and someone really hungry asked me if they could break their neck working for me, shooting RED, and showed that they were just as serious and trustworthy and dedicated as i am, i'd let them shoot my REDs, too. those people are rare...brook doesn't make claims about how dedicated he has been, he doesn't need to, he just does it through his actions and builds his reputation. and he has reaped the benefits. i look high and low for people like that to participate in my business, but, honestly, they are not that easy to find.

also, casey, you are talking about a pro package. part of the problem with hanging out on web forums is that they give you a bad case of the "i wants"--the truth is that you could probably shoot this thing with screw-on filters, a bogen tripod, and a nikon mount with a $1,000 lens (or cheaper...) and get great results, if you are skilled at lighting, framing, composing, exposing, and focusing. you don't need a $5K tripod, a cine lens (well, you do until one of these still cam mounts is released), and you don't need a mattebox.

i couldn't afford this either, when i signed up for it. i was set to stretch my way to a single stripped-down RED, exactly as i described it above and add to it when i could afford new parts. but now the money is in the bank waiting for two delivery of 2 REDs, accessorized. i won't own all the lenses that i want, until i can afford them, and one of them won't have a mattebox and will have to live on the cheapie bogen 516 set-up until i can afford better. but the tricked out RED and the minimalist RED will both do their jobs equally.

if you really want something (not just say you want something, that takes no effort at all, but really want it, with all of your energy aligned towards obtaining that desire...), then you find a way.

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 02:44 PM
well said planet e

and Casey- i hope you don't think I was being harsh- if you want info on one of the leasing companies I've used (lease sounds scary it's really rent to own) let me know.

Also i read earlier that the release of the Scarlet will be almost simultaneous, so the waiting period won't be years like it was in our case for the Red One.

Casey Green
01-04-2008, 03:08 PM
yes exactly, and look how resourceful brook has been, he's had his hands on RED more than almost anyone--and that is my point. just because you think you can't afford something doesn't mean anything.

if i had my cameras today, and someone really hungry asked me if they could break their neck working for me, shooting RED, and showed that they were just as serious and trustworthy and dedicated as i am, i'd let them shoot my REDs, too. those people are rare...brook doesn't make claims about how dedicated he has been, he doesn't need to, he just does it through his actions and builds his reputation. and he has reaped the benefits. i look high and low for people like that to participate in my business, but, honestly, they are not that easy to find.

also, casey, you are talking about a pro package. part of the problem with hanging out on web forums is that they give you a bad case of the "i wants"--the truth is that you could probably shoot this thing with screw-on filters, a bogen tripod, and a nikon mount with a $1,000 lens (or cheaper...) and get great results, if you are skilled at lighting, framing, composing, exposing, and focusing. you don't need a $5K tripod, a cine lens (well, you do until one of these still cam mounts is released), and you don't need a mattebox.

i couldn't afford this either, when i signed up for it. i was set to stretch my way to a single stripped-down RED, exactly as i described it above and add to it when i could afford new parts. but now the money is in the bank waiting for two delivery of 2 REDs, accessorized. i won't own all the lenses that i want, until i can afford them, and one of them won't have a mattebox and will have to live on the cheapie bogen 516 set-up until i can afford better. but the tricked out RED and the minimalist RED will both do their jobs equally.

if you really want something (not just say you want something, that takes no effort at all, but really want it, with all of your energy aligned towards obtaining that desire...), then you find a way.



I'm afraid your reply has veered off track of the point I was trying to make.

I completely agree with you about the fact that if you want something bad enough, you find ways of achieving it. I'm am not arguing that point and feel you inadvertently mistook what I tried to summarize clearly. It's okay, that happens, but I don't feel like anyone in my position should be made to look like a whiner.

I'm sure there are folks out there who are just along for the ride. But that's not where I'm coming from. I've dedicated a lot of time learning about the RED ONE so that when the day comes when I do use it, I will hit the ground running. I have friends with Cameras now and more coming soon that I will hopefully have access to at very reasonable rates, :) and was invited to participate in the recent LART tests, so again, I know what you are talking about regarding pursuing something and finding ways...

The reality is that some people (for reasons only known to them) just are not in a position to purchase the RED ONE Camera right now, and will be renting (or working for someone who has one) until that time comes. I'm just not convinced that that is a good enough reason to keep those of us interested in Scarlet from being able to put in a reservation as soon as everyone else. In fact, it's almost ironic that the lower priced Camera (I assume) will likely be quicker/easier to get for those with more cash or credit available (many reservation holders).

One last point. I do think that the early adopters should be rewarded in some way. Perhaps a discount, or some other creative way for Jim to show his appreciation.

Anyway, this is just food for thought. Perhaps I'll be able to afford the RED ONE before Scarlet is out. But I'd still want a low Scarlet reservation! :)

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 03:17 PM
Well that's true- we did all get a $2,500.00 discount on some serious accessories- but I'll take a place in line too. :)

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 03:21 PM
I thought of something else too- you can kind of think of it as a customer reward- or even a stock purchase. sometimes companies make stock available to a select group of people inside the company or whatever


Either way it's a great marketing tool- people are arguing over the privilege of potentially buying one. That is amazing!

Nathan Garofalos
01-04-2008, 03:26 PM
We know nothing about it, and we keep debating on who gets first dibs, and why you get dibs... lol.

chuckt
01-04-2008, 03:28 PM
I completely agree with you about the fact that if you want something bad enough, you find ways of achieving it.

First you have to decide, if you really need a RED at such great sacrifice. Price of all electronic items go down by 50% every year. If you can wait for another year, you can buy these at half price.
You might also find many used REDs soon on ebay.
Is RED such a great life time investment? May be.

One thing is for sure. If RED play the cards right, and ramp up production and reduce the price of essentials, it can really put SONY and Panasonic out of business. Just like the APPLE II forced BIG Iron IBM to produce PC and then clones forced IBM out of PC business.

RED is still not ready to take on the world. It has to put together an ergonomic compact body with attached sound and LCD and EVF. It has to provide a basic 15 to 100 mm lens and tape drive and software for post as part of the basic package.

If RED does not get its act together soon, SONY and Panasonic with their enormous production and marketing might, may crush RED for good. Both these giants are coming out with competing products at competitive prices in 2008.

I am rooting for RED. I hope RED win the war.

planet e
01-04-2008, 03:48 PM
i understand, casey, i hope you didn't feel i was attacking you personally and i certainly did not call anyone a whiner, i was just trying to alter a few perceptions about what is and is not possible....

like i indicated previously, i would be interested in hearing more about how this could be done fairly, given that jim has said he will entertain options, rather than more oppositional posts about why this should or should not be done...

Casey Green
01-04-2008, 03:58 PM
i understand, casey, i hope you didn't feel i was attacking you personally and i certainly did not call anyone a whiner, i was just trying to alter a few perceptions about what is and is not possible....

like i indicated previously, i would be interested in hearing more about how this could be done fairly, given that jim has said he will entertain options, rather than more oppositional posts about why this should or should not be done...

No worries, planet e, and thanks for your candor. I respect what you are doing in taking a risk with a lot riding on the outcome. I certainly would be doing the same if the situation and timing were different for me. But each has their own path, and I know my day will come. All in good time. :)

For now, I just felt it important to express this point of view. However it plays out will most likely be fair, as RED's track record has proven over and over in such a short amount of time.

cheers,

J.D. Frey
01-04-2008, 03:59 PM
If RED does not get its act together soon, SONY and Panasonic with their enormous production and marketing might, may crush RED for good. Both these giants are coming out with competing products at competitive prices in 2008.



they'll have to come out with an upgradeable package- red has mentioned sensor upgrades eventually- which means i get to keep all my hardware- in the past the other guys wanted you to purchase significant accessories every time you got a new camera.

Nathan Garofalos
01-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Maybe if RED ONE owners/ reservation holders would want to trade reservations for a SCARLET rather than their RED ONE. The new camera may be more along the lines of what they are looking for.

Sean R.
01-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Anyone thinking of trying to cancel their reservation for a Red One just because they want Scarlet- DON'T DO IT. We are talking 2 brilliant cameras here but we are also talking 2 different cameras. All I can say. Just stay tuned and be excited...be very excited.

Nathan Garofalos
01-04-2008, 05:15 PM
Anyone thinking of trying to cancel their reservation for a Red One just because they want Scarlet- DON'T DO IT. We are talking 2 brilliant cameras here but we are also talking 2 different cameras. All I can say. Just stay tuned and be excited...be very excited.

Sean R.

I agree that RED ONE is an brilliant camera, and im sure that Scarlet will be brilliant as well. But maybe Scarlet is more of an ideal camera for some people and don't need everything the RED ONE has to offer. I was just thinking a little bit. But I cant imagine anyone cancling their order for a RED ONE. For my needs that camera is just about perfect, except for the price...

brandon herman
01-04-2008, 05:41 PM
Let's also remember that even if we could all afford a RED ONE (breaking open our piggy banks and/or risking our credit) that doesn't mean it's a good idea or the best fit for our situation.

For the types of projects I often shoot, a cinema camera like the RED is just overkill. I sometimes do EPKs and behind-the-scenes shooting, and while it would be great fun to shoot the 'making-of' with a better camera than is actually shooting the movie, that's not always practical. I worked on a reality show about a car body shop, and we were constantly jumping into and out of little sports cars, doing interviews with a driver from the passenger seat. The DVCPRO cams they used at the beginning were always a huge struggle. They were bulky, and intimidated anyone not used to being on a movie set. The DVX-100B we eventually brought in was a lifesaver.

There are other indie film makers and film students on here that are probably in the same position. Those of us without a focus puller and a grip truck, but with a few friends and a lighting kit from Home Depot. (I'm exaggerating...slightly.)

I've been talking up the RED to every single person I know in the film/TV business (granted that's not a lot, but you'd recognize some of the names). And I lust after getting to shoot a TV pilot or a film with one.

But own one myself? Well of course, I wish I was in a position to do so. With employees and a huge client list. But right now it makes far more sense to rent one for a project when I need to and put the other money into the things that will show up on screen.

If I bought one, I'd need to be shooting with it every day on huge projects to justify the cost (not happening right now) or rent it out, and I'm really not looking to become a rental house, or risk my gear on someone else's set.

But a Scarlet would be perfect. Small size, great quality. Works with the $400 baby jib arm I used with my XL1 to great effect. Works with my homemade skateboard dolly. In fact, it would be a far better investment for me to own 2 Scarlets rather than 1 RED.

So please remember that not having a reservation doesn't reflect a lack of belief in the RED ONE, nor is it a matter of "not wanting it badly enough to get the money together." (I'm paraphrasing a few posts; that's not a direct quote.)

Christian Edwards
01-04-2008, 05:56 PM
jim,

Scarlet in for free with my Red one reservation and ill get a Red Digital Cinema tattoo

Daymon Hoffman
01-05-2008, 06:28 AM
If i really wanted to, i could buy a Ferrari. If i REALLY REALLY wanted to i could buy two. But does it make sense to focus such effort there? No. (not for the majority) Does this make me less loyal or less dedicated? nope, not in the slightest! Last time i checked dedication doesn't come from the wallet. So enough with those comments! yer'makin'me frown at the shallowness! :P

It doesn't really bother me RED ONE rez holders get some kind of first-dibs. I have a HV20 that creates awesome images for the price to do me while i read all the reviews and wait for production to catch up. :) Of course i'm a technologist and i REALLY appreciate quality so if i find out its the "shiznit" for me then i'll want i ASAP but i'm realistic.

Money is like breasts... the more you have.. the more you can flash around. Even with a fully enclosed shirt its still visible! :P

Kholi Hicks
01-05-2008, 10:12 AM
I respect the good-natured thought...

If the people holding reservations are all behind RED, then they'll be just as eager this time around to get in line first as they were last time.

I hope that somethin' on this Priority list turns around before NAB.

Casey Green
01-05-2008, 01:43 PM
But own one myself? Well of course, I wish I was in a position to do so. With employees and a huge client list. But right now it makes far more sense to rent one for a project when I need to and put the other money into the things that will show up on screen.


Well put.


...If i really wanted to, i could buy a Ferrari. If i REALLY REALLY wanted to i could buy two...



hmmm... This analogy does not make sense here. We're talking about affordability (yes, RED ONE is EXTREMELY affordable for what it is!), the ability to obtain a high-end professional tool, and the difference between buying and renting it. A luxury sports car is usually not an item one purchases just to rent out or start a business with.

Either way, I believe this all is a moot point now, due to Jim's recent post stating they would not be taking reservations. (and that Scarlet would most likely ship only when completed.)

(Titled "Don't get confused")
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7285

I have a feeling now that, feature wise, Scarlet may be less of a camcorder, and perhaps more like a compact 2K or 4K finder that can record. :) We'll see.

sparkhope
01-05-2008, 09:54 PM
Sounds like the quantities are going to be such that it may be a moot point who has a reservation...anyone who wants this camera will likely get it and hopefully in short order. Having said that, I personally think it should be available to everyone on a first come, first serve basis. There are many reasons outside of "true belief" why a person may not have jumped on board with RED One from day one, some of which have already been mentioned here. While it's nice to have preferential treatment, I think there is a limit to what early adopters should expect when it comes to brand new products that are not accessories, and in the long run I think RED will build more good will by not continuing to reinforce this separation.

Just my opinion, and I speak for only myself. And having stated it, I'll take two Scarlet cameras please...

Well put. Agreed. It should be a first come first served basis. Every new product should provide an opportunity for the loyal to prove their faith in REDligion.

And yes, I'll take one please.

J Clark
01-06-2008, 12:35 AM
Now that I spend my evenings keeping up on the red posts and wait with anticipation for my Red to arrive this week, I must acknowledge that this is my first cult membership.

Red is also an appropriate name considering we're on the bleeding edge, and don't followers usually have to spill some of the red stuff to join? So I guess Scarlet could also be considered cult-like...or is that cult-lite..

Early adopters have earned a first shot at Scarlet for throwing down a deposit and believing in the Red vision - It's greatly appreciated to be recognized for this. After all, these are the people who committed to a possibility and laid down more than $3 million in the form of blind cash faith - it's business. Clearly, the response told Jannard that there is in fact a market for his creation. Window shoppers just don't fund a company.

planet e
01-06-2008, 07:14 AM
I think there is a limit to what early adopters should expect when it comes to brand new products that are not accessories

let's clarify, jim started this thread himself, offering this possibility (and we have no specifics about what he even means)...as i said, i am already impressed with the return on my original thousand dollar investment. these decisions will be the result of the value that he puts on the original support for the RED project, not on what we think he should or shouldn't do...

i'm satisfied and impressed with what he has already done, and thankful that he would consider an additional gesture.

no one said anything about "expecting" anything...the origins of this thread was an OFFER, not a demand! followed by an outcry against the "demands" of early reservation holders and the insistence that message board speculation is equitable to a financial stake. it's not.

original reservations were open from NAB 2006 until October of that year--six months is plenty of time to find a thousand dollars, secured by a 110% money-back guarantee...what differentiated reservation holders was not money-- because the original amount itself was negligible--but the basic act of putting your money where your mouth is...

Aiden Cornwell
01-06-2008, 07:51 PM
I agree with Redone owners Reservation holders getting first priority. I do not own a Red one or have a reservation (not in a postion to spend 30k on a camera) however I firmly believe all those who put out the money deserve them before others. My only request is that there might be a way for those who can not make it to NAB still get a chance to get in line with a reservation for one of these cameras.

Fence sitter
01-08-2008, 03:18 PM
From someone half a world away it would be nice if at the NAB booth those wanting to buy could do so electronically so that those not there had equal opportunity to squeeze in line. I for one think that I'll buy but would like even chances of early delivery in a market where small camcorder style cameras are pay a far better return to early adopters before the market gets saturated by an oversupply as it catches on.

Another thing: and RED could do this easily is to make sure that the web site carries all of the appropriate information on line at the point of NAB announcement. Once again making the playing field level for those unable to attend NAB.

Fence

Nathan Garofalos
01-08-2008, 05:35 PM
I agree, id like to be able to purchase it electronically as well.

Fence sitter
01-08-2008, 07:00 PM
electronically and concurrently.....no barriers to amrket no matter where you are.

Fence sitter
01-08-2008, 07:00 PM
sorry typo...

electronically and concurrently.....no barriers to market no matter where you are.

Noel Evans
01-11-2008, 06:10 AM
By the way, Jim... I love the choice of the name, Scarlet.

You might recall it was the name I chose for the RED ONE that I will own someday, as stated in one of my posts dating back to July:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=59164#post59164

:love:

Im quite partial to the name also as my business name is Scarlet Digital Cinema... maybe we can fit one in.

Blue
01-12-2008, 04:40 PM
Red's body is already on razor thin margins, if not being a loss leader outright, he can't afford to give student discount.

Hey Shawn. You evidently have some information on RED's cost structure. How thin are these margins you're talking about?

jaadgy akanni
01-12-2008, 05:31 PM
heheheh Blue always sounds to me like it's really Jim behind that horrendous mask...hahaha

ScottPictures
01-13-2008, 09:40 AM
Ok I've been thinking some more about this....

Perhaps Scarlet has been in development since Day 1 at Red, and they just never said a single word about it till NAB 2007.

This little gem could be on sale very soon.

Total industry sneak attack!

.... at least thats what I'm hoping for.

If that happens, it will blow my mind.

I'm very thankful to Mr. Jannard and Co. for making this awesome camera company.

killfilm
01-13-2008, 07:41 PM
quite a few people i know are interested, but are concerned about delivery delays and lineups, so iam wondering if the approach will be like the red one.

Dillian G
01-17-2008, 09:17 AM
So, that means us little guys might be able to get one, lets say, 2018?

Jason Burkhimer
01-17-2008, 11:04 AM
While Im INCREDIBLY excited about this camera, and generally foaming at the mouth with any shred of new information, its pretty disheartening not knowing if Ill be able to get one or not. I mean, are the first units held for REDONE people or will a whole new reserve list begin for Scarlet? Do I have to be present at NAB to reserve one, or outright buy one, or can I reserve one online the day of the announcement?

It'll be difficult for me, if not impossible to make it to NAB this year, but I, like everyone else on this board want one of these things as soon as humanly possible(an amazing acheivement on RED's part being as that nobody outside of the RED team actually know what Scarlet really is!) :w00t:

As I have said before, if this camera is in the realm of what I believe its going to be, then it will be an insane camera to have with me on some surf shoots Ive got going on in the second half of 2008. I just wish I had some sort of idea of a general idea of an overall idea of some hint that I might be able to get one in April.:waaa:

planet e
01-17-2008, 09:24 PM
Jim has already said that they will not be taking reservations for Scarlet. He has also said that he is considering offering first dibs to original reservation holders. I interpret this to mean that there will be no new reservation system but that there may be a bone thrown to the original reservation holders. All things subject to change, etc...

killfilm
01-21-2008, 07:12 PM
its nice of Jim to offer red users the scarlet first. But i believe for scarlet to own the market it has to:

-satisfy user's requests
-be unique and excel in what it does
-lastly and more importantly---deliver to the market

Fergus Meiklejohn
01-21-2008, 09:12 PM
While Im INCREDIBLY excited about this camera, and generally foaming at the mouth with any shred of new information, its pretty disheartening not knowing if Ill be able to get one or not. I mean, are the first units held for REDONE people or will a whole new reserve list begin for Scarlet? Do I have to be present at NAB to reserve one, or outright buy one, or can I reserve one online the day of the announcement?

It'll be difficult for me, if not impossible to make it to NAB this year, but I, like everyone else on this board want one of these things as soon as humanly possible(an amazing acheivement on RED's part being as that nobody outside of the RED team actually know what Scarlet really is!) :w00t:

As I have said before, if this camera is in the realm of what I believe its going to be, then it will be an insane camera to have with me on some surf shoots Ive got going on in the second half of 2008. I just wish I had some sort of idea of a general idea of an overall idea of some hint that I might be able to get one in April.:waaa:


Yeah that's the thing huh.. Jim wants to compete (or should I say defeat) Sony in this arena :biggrin: , but I can go into any number of shops today in London, UK and buy an EX1 off the shelf.. They don't reserve the camera first for "Friends of Sony".. And if it's faulty Sony provide an excellent two year warranty that I can exercise here in the EU.

Personally I think you are mistaken to already want to spend your hard earned money on device about which you know almost nothing. I say this is a friendly way of course; (I have been a RED1 reservation holder since NAB last year and I am also very interested to hear what RED plan to create with the name "Scarlet"..). But I do think that the market in the area of Professional HandHeld Camcorders is very competitive and that there are many excellent devices already on the market; and after NAB2008 I'm sure there will be more.

So RED really have a lot to do here to create a device that really stands out! The big selling point of the RED1 is that it is true 4K recorded in-camera at a very competitive price point. That's pretty revolutionary! But in the mass market camcorder world: Sony already make a true 1080P camcorder recording to Flash in camera at a very competitive price point..

The big question is: How is RED going to improve on the EX1 ..or whatever even better new HVX model that Panasonic may introduce at NAB2008..?

Rick Darge
01-21-2008, 11:36 PM
true 1080p?? I'm not so sure about that

divergent
01-22-2008, 01:55 AM
true 1080p?? I'm not so sure about that

hmm, ok... the EX is using 1920x1080 progressive imagers, resolving 1000 lines, and writing 1920x1080 progressive images to disc (in HQ mode). How is it not true 1080p?

Fergus Meiklejohn
01-22-2008, 01:55 AM
true 1080p?? I'm not so sure about that

:calm: Do you have specific credible information to back up that statement? LOL Even on REDuser you can't get away with comments like that about a Sony product without providing evidence..

rawfa
01-22-2008, 06:04 AM
Wouldn't it be more logical to get scarlet to people who don't already have Red so that even more people get to know the company and spread the word regarding how good it is?

Juan Kaballero
01-22-2008, 06:17 AM
maybe the EX is using 1920x1080 progressive imagers but:

*I hate sony
*I hate hdv

so I will wait a bit

Bing Bailey
01-22-2008, 07:48 AM
the colour space is only 4:2:0 , hopefully scarlet would benefit from everything that has been worked out for the red one, 1080p with full colour information recording to 16gb cf cards would actually blow the EX1 away. also given some of the reviews the EX1 suffers a massive resolution drop with movement. lock off and still its ultra sharp. soon as it moves that apparently drops off considerably.

Fergus Meiklejohn
01-22-2008, 07:51 AM
the colour space is only 4:2:0 , hopefully scarlet would benefit from everything that has been worked out for the red one, 1080p with full colour information recording to 16gb cf cards would actually blow the EX1 away. also given some of the reviews the EX1 suffers a massive resolution drop with movement. lock off and still its ultra sharp. soon as it moves that apparently drops off considerably.

Yep, I agree, these are definitely things that Scarlet would look to improve on.

Bing Bailey
01-22-2008, 07:53 AM
not to mention the fact that CF cards are at least 50% cheaper than the SxS cards

Bing Bailey
01-22-2008, 07:59 AM
And at that resolution 1080p or 2k we could use lower speed cards and possibly get up to 120fps. JandR has a 16gb CF card for $199 right now thats rated at 20MB. course nobody knows its true speed til you put it through its paces. but we don't need 27MB for 2k or 1080p :)

divergent
01-22-2008, 03:26 PM
also given some of the reviews the EX1 suffers a massive resolution drop with movement. lock off and still its ultra sharp. soon as it moves that apparently drops off considerably.

Do you have links to these reviews or sample footage? I've heard this mentioned a couple of times, first in reference to the original xdcams and now the ex (in most cases from panasonic owners). However I've downloaded quite a few sample clips from the EX and have yet to see this. The only time I've seen it go soft is from motion blur... in fact I suspect this is what people are seeing, I believe on the EX with the shutter off you are essentially using a 1/24th shutter speed when shooting 24p which tends to exaggerate the motion blur with even the slightest movement.

Ravell
01-22-2008, 03:36 PM
Darkkeit and Divergent - you should read this thread on DVXuser about the supposed softening. Appears they've tested it out and several experiments later have gotten to the bottom of it.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=121989

divergent
01-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Ravell - thanks for that link, it's a great explanation of what's going on, and it does conclude that there is no loss of sharpness during movements.

I see two big and valid complaints about the EX - skew from the rolling shutter, and the 4:2:0 colorspace. I consider both of these important considerations primarily for those doing heavy post or effects work. For things like green screen the color space issue can be worked around via tethered recording via SDI; however for motion tracking the skew cannot be avoided and therefore makes the EX a poor choice.

Scarlet can probably improve on the color space issue, but since red one has the rolling shutter it's likely Scarlet will as well.

Improved color space alone won't make Scarlet an EX killer. It's a 'pocket camera' - we can debate what that really means all day but it's certainly not something with a similar form factor to an EX. There will likely be a lot of situations where a very small form factor will be a much bigger issue - either for or against it - than it's compression format.

If you're not doing heavy effects work I think the color space issue is much smaller than most make it out to be - as is skew. For most naturalistic subjects I wonder why people even feel the need for an EX killer? It produces beautiful images, especially considering it's price range and size.

I'll be buying an EX, and I'll most likely be buying a Scarlet as well. It's clear to me from the speculation threads that a lot of people are somehow hoping that Scarlet will be an HVX form factor and price with all the features of RED, which would make it an EX competitor - but that's clearly not the case. Jim's already said it won't be a competitor to RED, and I have a feeling it won't really be a competitor to the EX either. It will likely be better in some aspects and not in others - and as a 'pocket camera' it will be better suited to some types of shoots (where the EX is too big) and not others (where the EX may be a better choice).

Fergus Meiklejohn
01-22-2008, 08:38 PM
Divergent: I agree with pretty much everything you said..

The trick is: would I be better canning my RED1 reservation and buying an EX1 instead? (I don't expect you to answer that for me amigo :) )

... I am increasingly thinking that an EX1 (with it's obviously worse picture when compared to the RED 1), may actually be a more practical buy for low budget documentary film-making..

Now maybe that is something that the RED team might want to consider going forward.. But as you, and others on this thread have said: they have their niche, they have filled it beautifully, and maybe they don't care to compete in such an already saturated and ultra competitive market :construction:

divergent
01-22-2008, 09:07 PM
obviously worse picture when compared to the RED 1

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=122733

hmm...

Fergus Meiklejohn
01-22-2008, 09:27 PM
Nice link Divergent.. thanks

I guess it's like you said though.. 4:2:0 colourspace, which may or may not be a limitation, depending on where I want to go in post.


Anyway.. good link.. point taken.. :-)

J Clark
01-25-2008, 03:28 PM
Can we speculate that Scarlet maight be a digital SLR? That would make waves in the professional photographer's market with a 4k(just under 10 megapixels) image at 4:4:4 with no upresing. The Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II shoots at 16 megapixels on a CMOS sensor with wireless transfer(cool), but I understand that it only shoots about 6-8 stops max. AND, I can't imagine that they're shooting without some compression... usually the blue channel.

Andrew Hewlett
01-25-2008, 03:50 PM
Can we speculate that Scarlet maight be a digital SLR? That would make waves in the professional photographer's market with a 4k(just under 10 megapixels) image at 4:4:4 with no upresing. The Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II shoots at 16 megapixels on a CMOS sensor with wireless transfer(cool), but I understand that it only shoots about 6-8 stops max. AND, I can't imagine that they're shooting without some compression... usually the blue channel.

I think Jim has already stated that its a motion capture camera and not a still image camera.

divergent
01-26-2008, 06:31 PM
Can we speculate that Scarlet maight be a digital SLR? That would make waves in the professional photographer's market with a 4k(just under 10 megapixels) image at 4:4:4 with no upresing. The Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II shoots at 16 megapixels on a CMOS sensor with wireless transfer(cool), but I understand that it only shoots about 6-8 stops max. AND, I can't imagine that they're shooting without some compression... usually the blue channel.

RAW's generally not compressed on DSLRs is it? And I don't think they're using upresing on most of them, unless you're talking about the bayer sampling - but that's the same thing RED does in order to get 3 color channels from a single sensor, isn't it? I just don't see how this would be any different/better than what's out there - unless you're talking about a DSLR that shoots full motion to redcode raw.... which could be interesting but isn't likely, would you lock the mirror up while filming? Seems problematic - and again I wouldn't in any way consider a DSLR form factor a pocket camera.

Buck Forester
02-04-2008, 10:25 AM
One thing is for sure. If RED play the cards right, and ramp up production and reduce the price of essentials, it can really put SONY and Panasonic out of business

Not to be confrontational, but I don't think anyone's "going out of business". There's plenty of room for good competition. There's already more than a few 'healthy' manufacturers in the game. RED will find a strong, profitable place in the market, but I highly doubt one or two cameras is going to put another manufacturer out of business, no matter who they are. Each new camera merely sharpens the pencils of each competitor.


If RED does not get its act together soon, SONY and Panasonic with their enormous production and marketing might, may crush RED for good.

RED does have its act together, in my opinion. RED is a smaller company, more market flexability, has great management, a proven entrepreneurial leader, and interactivity with customers (I don't think Sony or Panny or JVC have active company forums like this where the President or actual "product developers" interact with the public), which all bode well for the success of these cameras. I'm just saying.

barnstormerfilms
02-05-2008, 04:39 PM
Buy a Scarlet and get a free pair of matching Oakley sunglasses....j/k

I think Jim has the understanding of business to know when to fight for a company and when its time to close shop. And in case everyone wasn't looking Sony, as big as it is, hasn't been doing to great lately.

~Marque

Ben A.
02-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Looking forward to seeing how Scarlet compares to my HVX. Hopefully it will be cheaper and I could use it for multi-cam events with the HVX.

arun
02-08-2008, 01:36 AM
am sure after NAB 2008 red gonna beat sony verry badly keep going on jimm we r really tired with the higher price of sony's baby cam's red gonna change history once again with scarlet 2k cinema cam sure abt that .... thanks alot jimm
.. arun

John Godden
02-09-2008, 09:59 PM
Looking forward to seeing how Scarlet compares to my HVX. Hopefully it will be cheaper and I could use it for multi-cam events with the HVX.

There's no way Scarlet will be cheaper than an HVX. I suspect Scarlet will be quite different from the HVX in form and function.

Regards
JohnG

Jason Burkhimer
02-10-2008, 05:55 PM
There's no way Scarlet will be cheaper than an HVX. I suspect Scarlet will be quite different from the HVX in form and function.

Regards
JohnG

You dont know if scralet will be cheaper or more expensive than an HVX because you still have no idea what it actually is. I do agree in that if I had to guess, it will be different in form factor than an HVX. I cant fit an HVX in my pocket.

John Godden
02-11-2008, 06:40 AM
You dont know if scralet will be cheaper or more expensive than an HVX because you still have no idea what it actually is. I do agree in that if I had to guess, it will be different in form factor than an HVX. I cant fit an HVX in my pocket.

I didn't miss the fact that this entire Scarlet forum is based on speculation.

It's all good
JohnG

killfilm
02-16-2008, 04:55 PM
I didn't miss the fact that this entire Scarlet forum is based on speculation.

It's all good
JohnG

You're right about the speculation thread, BUT, there are known facts in the sticky and hints about 2k, scratch support etc.

enrico parenti
01-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Of course we will give Scarlet priority to reservation holders. We just aren't thinking about how to do that yet.

Jim

Best thing could be to give priority to us that are being following the production process here on reduser.com

Or at least to give us the chance to order first...

Eric Lange
01-11-2010, 03:07 PM
Jim could do like Charlie and the Chocolate factory/Willi Wonker, sell millions of RED candy/chocolate bars, and those that have the “Gold Ticket” can have the chance to buy a camera before the RED ONE faithful.
Seroisuly you could do it for charity, RED girl scout cookies, every Scarlet wannabe will buy tons of cookies, and maybe twenty get lucky, and the proceeds go to charity.

Maybe a lottery for twenty Scarlet fan boys that have the right to be randomly thrown into the mix of the first two hundred orders standing in line with original RED ONE owners.

Sounds fair to me?

I think there is a principal here, in that those that could afford to buy a RED ONE have, the ones that would really like to own a RED one but can’t afford one have been hoping for a Scarlet. I think it makes sense to mix the waiting line up a bit so that folks with smaller budget can get a crack at Scarlet.

I don’t think that party faithful RED One owners will be pissed off by a random twenty Scarlet wannabees mixed into the line (especially as its for a charitable cause), given that a lot of Scarlets will have to go into production, and mabe not that many RED ONE users desperately want a scarlet other than S3D ers.

Works for me... (of course try picking a charity, but JIM should be good at that...?)

Cheers,
Eric

John Caballero
01-11-2010, 03:16 PM
What a time machine. Wonderful how this thread jumped almost 2 years from post to post and Scarlet is nowhere to be found. Amazing isn't it?

Martin Weiss
01-11-2010, 03:22 PM
John,
have you ever heard of the CES?

Jason Ramsey
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
What a time machine. Wonderful how this thread jumped almost 2 years from post to post and Scarlet is nowhere to be found. Amazing isn't it?

Wonderful how during that two years you have degenerated from being a relatively productive member of the 'user forums into little more than a troll whose posts relating to RED on all three of Landmine's forums now almost entirely consist of snide one-liners...