Has a RED ever been used for IMAX?

[drew sandoval]

Hey guys...

Just wondering if anyone has ever heard of RED 4k footage being tested as a substitute for IMAX film? I am not talking the IMAX DMR blow-up ( which Contagion underwent), but the full 1.44 aspect ratio full-size IMAX. The only films i think to have full size IMAX sequences are MIGP, Dark Knight Rises and Transformers 2 (all shot there sequences with actual IMAX-size 70mm film, except alot T2 stuff was full frame VistaVision stuff upconverted to the 1.44 full-size IMAX). Does anyone know if tests were ever conducted, and could recall what the consensus opinion was?

just wondering...

[Sergio Perez]

I think Contagion was on IMAX screens?

[drew sandoval]

I think Contagion was on IMAX screens?

Contagion wasn't blown up beyond the normal IMAX DMR conversion, which on a six story 1.44 IMAX screen only takes up the center two-thirds, with it's 1.85 aspect ratio. I am wondering about any tests everdone with RED footage used to fill the full six story screen.

[Austin Chapman]

Bump, interested in this same topic.... is 5k IMAX size or smaller?

[Kemalettin Sert]

read or heard somewhere imax is beyond 8K...gotta check Wally Pfister interviews again for this

[Jake Bastian]

IMAX film resolves beyond 8K but it's still projected at 2K, hopefully that will change to at least 4K soon. I'm betting RED Dragon will be better for shooting in the right aspect ratio without having to crop too much into your sensor.

[Tom Lowe]

The answer is yes. Epic is being used now to shoot portions of multiple IMAX films, and has been for almost a year. Extensive testing has been done, by multiple parties.

The problem, though, is the aspect ratio. By the time you cut off the sides of the Epic image to make it 3:2, for example, you have lost much of the resolution. This is why developing a 3:2 FF35mm cinema camera is still important, IMO.

[Martin Whittier]

There was a really good article on here awhile back discussing IMAX projection not resolving past 4K due to limitations in the glass, not the film.

[Lonny Danler]

Been shooting a bit of an IMAX 3D documentary 5k 3:1 but haven't seen anything printed yet. First thing when they do I'm taking a look at it though.

[Trevor Meeks]

I believe they were shooting AIR RACERS 3D (Reno Air Races) on Red Ones for IMAX.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc1/7728_507623997297_201600113_30296753_2920103_n.jpg

[conrad gaunt]

There was a really good article on here awhile back discussing IMAX projection not resolving past 4K due to limitations in the glass, not the film.

IMAX can't resolve above about 1080p (im being generous i think), a R1 sensor is overkill frankly

[Jason Rudd]

The only way you're going to get 8K out of IMAX, is from FILM that has not gone through their DMR process.
DMR is a digital process and would not be used for 8K 70mm film projected prints.
For 8K resolution films, it basically gets printed from NEGATIVE FILM to a 70mm print stock like in the recently release portions of MI4, and Dark Knight, or SCANNED at 8K from 65mm neg stock on one of the few 65mm scanners in the world, manipulated in post for FX and DI work, then shot out digitally at 8K to 65mm film stock which is then printed to 70mm.

Otherwise, all RED shot movies that have been DI'ed at 2K or 4K have gone through their DMR.

So yes, RED certainly has been used for many many IMAX studio releases (Pirates, Contagion, Underworld, etc.) but the 8K 70mm films originate from film shoots. That is why MI4, Dark Knight, the upcoming Dark Knight Rises are special events. Because they feature 8K 65mm original photography in their 70mm prints! That is why you should see some of these movies in 70mm IMAX theatres.

If an 8K digital camera does get released, then the immediate distribution venue is with prints in IMAX 70mm film theatres, since there are no commercially available 8K digital theatrical projection systems that I know of.

But by the time RED or other companies release a true 8K capable cameras, 70mm film distribution, nay even 35mm distribution, will likely be a fading memory. Unless Jim hurries up and releases an 8K camera NEXT YEAR! Right Jim?? ;)

[Jason Rudd]

There's a LOT of misinformation about IMAX resolution in this thread. Most of it is all wrong.


IMAX can't resolve above about 1080p (im being generous i think), a R1 sensor is overkill frankly

[conrad gaunt]

There's a LOT of misinformation about IMAX resolution in this thread. Most of it is all wrong.

You're right, because very few people here have ever tested the optical resolution of an imax theatre on this thread

Avatar was shot at 1080p, it was the sharpest imax film ive ever seen.

People get confused because film has been scanned at 8k.. but that is so it can be reprinted back onto 70mm film, which can resolve 8k.. it has nothing to do with projection resolution, and everything to do with making the best master you can

don't want to burst your bubble though..

[Jules D.]

James Neihouse posted that he was over at red studios today learning about the EPIC, so i am very curious to see what he will say about the epics use in IMAX

[Elliott Balsley]

Skyfall.

[Joe Minuni]

Skyfall.

I was going to mention this. I just listened to the RedCenter podcast at fxguide and they were talking about seeing skyfall in a 4k theater, and that it was absolutely mind blowingly sharp. And this is an up-res from Alexa (with those epic aerial shots). They mentioned Deakins being very critical of the post process, and apparently it shows

[Adrian Jebef]

I was going to mention this. I just listened to the RedCenter podcast at fxguide and they were talking about seeing skyfall in a 4k theater, and that it was absolutely mind blowingly sharp. And this is an up-res from Alexa (with those epic aerial shots). They mentioned Deakins being very critical of the post process, and apparently it shows

SKYFALL in digital IMAX, (2) overlaid 2K Christie projectors, was the sharpest, cleanest, most mind-blowing digital picture I've seen yet. Above and beyond anything else (so far...).

BTW: IMAX is a horizontal 70mm film format with a frame size of 70.41mm x 52.63mm in a 1.43:1 aspect ratio. Basically an IMAX frame is almost 3x2 inches square with 15 perfs. To put this in perspective you could fit almost 10 EPIC sensors on one frame of IMAX. Remember that resolution (2K, 4K, 8K) is independent of frame size/sensor size and perceived (or measurable) resolution is dependent on viewing distance. Traditional IMAX film theaters are built with HUGE square screens and almost vertical stadium seating that puts the audience as close as possible to the action. Anything can be shot, blown up, and printed on 70mm IMAX projection film. What it will actually look like is another thing. And as I said, I thought the Digital IMAX projection of SKYFALL was on par with the film projections I've seen of The Master, Dark Night Rises, Hubble, etc. (though I still think the 70mm IMAX films are still superior).

Tech Specs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

70 mm still has more res, obviously, but according to the tests 5K doesn't look so bad projected there via 4K digital (If i remember reading about it correctly, they used Barco's prototype laser projectors) and after DMR blowup process with tad bit of sharpening before the filmout to 15/70mil. Personally, anything better than current 2K digital projection on those big screens is a good thing. Then again, getting a digital replacement for IMAX film camera is just a matter of time. 8K+ full-frame sensors, then 15/70mm-sized sensors and 8K+ laser projection. I bet the camera itself will be smaller than the analog precursor, too ;)

[Steve Gibby]

James Neihouse posted that he was over at red studios today learning about the EPIC, so i am very curious to see what he will say about the epics use in IMAX

Just saw this old post from February. I can't speak for James, but I can tell you this. James was invited and joined some of our Golden Gate 3D company staff (including myself, Peter Chang, and Brad Kremer) on that February visit to Red Studios. It was fantastic - our small group of four spent some great time visiting with my good friend Jarred, then an exclusive hour with my longtime friend Jim Jannard viewing Epic footage shot in 5k projected in 4k on the giant screen - and it looked stellar. To be clear, I've been viewing 4k Red One footage projected in 4k on large screens since way back in late 2007, so I know how incredible it looks, but that February meeting at Red Studios was the first time I'd seen 5k Epic footage projected in 4k on a large screen. It was in a word "stunning"!

Looking back, way back in early 2008 we took some of my Red One 4k nature footage, had it processed through Lowry in L.A. then output to 70mm for an IMAX projection demonstration for some studio executives in L.A. Their responses went like - "that looks fantastic! - what camera and lens?" When told that it was shot with a Red One in 4k raw using a 20 year old Canon 150-600 f5.6L zoom, then processed and output to 70mm, their jaws really dropped.

I'm not free to give any details whatsoever (please don't ask), but I'm personally aware of at least one currently in production IMAX 3D film which has been using Epic 3D rigs shooting 5k for a significant percentage of their footage acquisition.

From the items of info above anyone can see what my answer is to the thread opening question "Has a Red ever been used for IMAX?" The answer is "yes", and looking forward to the even larger Red sensors on the horizon, in my opinion Red cameras will definitely continue to make serious inroads into giant screen productions.

[Elliott Balsley]

Most of Skyfall was actually shot on the Alexa, in 3K. Epic was only used for a few scenes. I am amazed that this "low" resolution holds up on such a large screen, but I saw the movie, and indeed it looks stunning. I did not notice any pixelation or softness. Roger Deakins said the DI process was in 3K, and they mastered a 4K DCP. It seems the "IMAX" name is being tossed around more loosely than it used to.

[Tom.Wong]

is imax even really playing in 4k at all? i was under the impression it was 2x 2k projectors. where one was shooting one of half of the screen, and the other projector the other half. honestly we haven't even been able to see the maximum resolving quality of epic, red one, or even alexa 2.8k on the big screen yet.

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

is imax even really playing in 4k at all? i was under the impression it was 2x 2k projectors. where one was shooting one of half of the screen, and the other projector the other half. honestly we haven't even been able to see the maximum resolving quality of epic, red one, or even alexa 2.8k on the big screen yet.

I've just read that IMAX will begin installing 4K Barco laser projectors at the theaters sometime in 2013.

http://displaydaily.com/2012/02/08/imax-barco-and-kodak-to-bring-laser-cinema/
http://www.4-traders.com/BARCO-5972/news/BARCO-Future-IMAX-theaters-to-be-exclusively-powered-by-Barco-14008816/

[Adrian Jebef]

is imax even really playing in 4k at all? i was under the impression it was 2x 2k projectors. where one was shooting one of half of the screen, and the other projector the other half. honestly we haven't even been able to see the maximum resolving quality of epic, red one, or even alexa 2.8k on the big screen yet.


Yes. If you see it in Digital IMAX.

Digital IMAX (frequently seen at your new, local, megaplex) is (2) 2K Christie projectors overlaid. It's not a splitscreen. Future Digital IMAX theaters are planning on using (2) 4K Barco laser projectors in a similar way. Interestingly enough Deakins thought IMAX's proprietary DMR process (Digital Media Remastering) gave SKYFALL's IMAX treatment poor results. He opted instead for a simple 4K upres.

From the Digital IMAX presentation of SKYFALL I'd have to say that I did see maximum quality up there on the big screen. And it was incredible.

[Pawel Achtel]

IMAX can't resolve above about 1080p (im being generous i think), a R1 sensor is overkill frankly

I'm not aware of any underwater IMAX originated footage that would get even close to 1080p in terms of resolution. This is because of the limitations of the underwater optics used with those cameras.

[Tom.Wong]

Yes. If you see it in Digital IMAX.

Digital IMAX (frequently seen at your new, local, megaplex) is (2) 2K Christie projectors overlaid. It's not a splitscreen. Future Digital IMAX theaters are planning on using (2) 4K Barco laser projectors in a similar way. Interestingly enough Deakins thought IMAX's proprietary DMR process (Digital Media Remastering) gave SKYFALL's IMAX treatment poor results. He opted instead for a simple 4K upres.

From the Digital IMAX presentation of SKYFALL I'd have to say that I did see maximum quality up there on the big screen. And it was incredible.

honestly I think deakins is right. i think prometheus went through the same enhancement that deakins didn't want, and i really didn't think it looked so hot. i thought skyfall looked quite amazing as well. only areas I think it fell short resolution was, were the big city aerials, and i felt you lost a something in the eyes I'm used to seeing a lot more sharpness in on smaller panels. otherwise, i was completely surprised on how well 2.8k stood up, and can't wait for 4k acquired material to show up in its native res soon.

[Andrew Ceperley]

Ironic, apparently the aerials were shot with the Epic.

[Max Nguyen]

The only way you're going to get 8K out of IMAX, is from FILM that has not gone through their DMR process.
But by the time RED or other companies release a true 8K capable cameras, 70mm film distribution, nay even 35mm distribution, will likely be a fading memory. Unless Jim hurries up and releases an 8K camera NEXT YEAR! Right Jim?? ;)

I recall the 28k sensor Red once talked about on their road map. They obviously stopped talking about the road map due to people listening and copying their work, but a lot of the things they mentioned then came to fruition. Things change and whatever, but I have a feeling that crazy shit is what is keeping these guys awake all the time.