Thoughts and feedback for these three tripod+fluid head combinations [Archive]

Rob Anderson

01-21-2012, 01:35 AM

Most of my work takes place in a studio environment, while a small but critical fraction of my shoots are outdoors, in dusty, desert conditions, and sometimes on the top of a tall mountain. Odd combination, I know. But that's been my recent niche.

I have a RED One and an Epic-X on order. I'm shooting with RED Primes and I have the RP 18-85 Zoom and the 300mm. The combined camera (One), monitor, bomb, rails, a battery, all additional hardware, and the heaviest lens (18-85) clocks in at a few ounces under 40lbs.

I need a tripod+head that is rock steady for my studio work but still resilient enough (and "light" enough) to make it up the side of a mountain on someone's back. And once on the peaks, I need to have simple enough controls where we're not struggling through vital minutes fidgeting with dials. No rain, sleet, or snow as we climb during the "friendly" season.

Oh and I have a bit of a budget to consider. Anyone up to the task to help us get this sorted?

I've narrowed down three options that all seem to have their good and bad. While I appreciate there are a multitude of other options, I've sunk a lot of time into this search already and I'd prefer to keep the final pick down to within these three, unless someone shows me something that is extraordinarily the better choice. BH Photo links provided for specifications details only.

MILLER 1741 ARROW 55:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469664-REG/Miller_1741_1741_Arrow_55_Tripod.html

SACHTLER SYSTEM 20 S1 HD MCF:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/706568-REG/Sachtler_2073S1_System_20_S1_HD.html

OCONNOR 1030HDSPKG (+ MILLER ENG CARBON FIBER 2-STAGE TRIPOD):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481863-REG/OConnor_1030HDS_PKG_1030HDSPKG_Professional_Studio _Fluid.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/232996-REG/Miller_925_ENG_Carbon_Fiber_2_Stage.html

Last, I've been shopping for a support bracket for the 18-85 and I've seen this one recommended elsewhere on here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/734607-REG/Chrosziel_AC401_32_AC401_32_Lens_Support_Bracket.h tml

Is the Chrosziel the best option and if not, could anyone make a recommendation otherwise?

Many, many thanks in advance for your help.

***UPDATE:
See here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?70895-Thoughts-and-feedback-for-these-three-tripod-fluid-head-combinations&p=944623&viewfull=1#post944623

http://www.revelstudios.com/shares/miller1.jpg

Steve Gibby

01-21-2012, 10:57 AM

Here are my thoughts on that:

Of the head/legs combos you listed, if it were me the choice would be quite easy - the Miller Arrow 55 package 1741.

B&H price comparison of the packages you listed:
Sachtler - $9,963
O'Connor - $8,011
Miller - $6,189

Max load comparison of the packages you listed:
Miller - 55 pounds
Sachtler - 55 pounds
O'Connor - 53 pounds

The cost-to-performance ratio, and the cost-to-features ratio for the Miller combination far surpass those of other two packages. The Miller package costs $3,774 less than the Sachtler package, and $1,822 less than the O'Connor package - but the head performance of the Miller is every bit as good as those other two heads.

I've used Miller 55 heads exclusively with all of my Red One cameras since August 2007 - with great results and performance, whether doing stationary or mobile production. I've had head loads on the Miller 55 ranging from 55 pounds (fully accessorized Optimo 12), down to just 16 pounds - and head performance was spot-on.

This past year I also added in a Miller Compass 25/Miller Solo 1505 spreader-less CF legs combo to my kits for use with my Epic cameras - and the results have been exceptional. The Compass 25 supports a max of 31 pounds, thus easily satisfying all but the very heaviest Epic head load needs for mobile production.

Late this past year I became sponsored by Miller - but my opinions of their heads and legs, and their industry leading price-to-performance and price-to-features ratios were formed over many years of using their products - long before they approached me for sponsorship.

To be clear, all the major tripod manufacturers make very good quality heads and legs for their top-of-the-line products. Throughout my career I've also used tons of high-end O'Connor, Sachtler, and Vinten tripod systems, with very good results. But as an entrepreneur I'm in the good habit of keeping overhead and expenses down as much as possible. I see no reason to spend any more than I have to on equipment as long as what I buy is reliable, performs up my expectations, and is cost effective.

The above are my own opinions. Others may be fiercely brand-loyal or feel peer pressure to stick with their niche of the industry on their purchases. To each their own...

Rob Anderson

01-21-2012, 02:52 PM

Steve, Fantastic feedback and I truly appreciate the detailed response. Thank you for the breakdown and the excellent perspective. For good reasons, I believe you've helped me make my choice. Now to shop around for a price that's hopefully a hair better than the B&H one. Thanks again.

Mike 'Fireman' Ross

01-21-2012, 05:13 PM

I was impressed by a Sachtler Cine 30 I encountered last year.

But I *own* the Miller Arrow. Price/performance. Agree 100% with Steve on that one. If you're really stuck on budget look for a used Arrow 50: not much difference in spec, considerable difference in price.

Mike

rod bradley

01-21-2012, 05:28 PM

I too agree. Miller is highly under-rated in this country. I own and use both Oconnor and Miller heads. Nothing wrong with Sachtler either. But Miller is definitely the best deal and you don't give up performance.

Alexander Ibrahim

01-27-2012, 12:47 AM

Tnhe concern I had with the Miller heads was that you couldn't really get the drag down to almost nothing where I like it.

The Sachtler heads I have used typically have a broader weight support range, including very light setups, and thus they offer very low drag options.

If you think you are likely to configure your Epic in a bare bones way, its worth giving this some thought. You can build a working Epic rig at around 9lbs if you want. (With a Canon prime ... I think)

That said, I definitely think that Miller is the best bargain!

Steve Gibby

01-27-2012, 08:20 AM

I think you raise some interesting points Alexander...

The Sachtler head Rob mentioned he was considering is the System 20 S1. Here's a link to that head's specs:
http://www.sachtler.com/us/products/camera-support/fluid-heads/product_fluid-heads-100-mm_video-20-s1__tech-facts.html

The Miller head Rob mentioned he was considering is the Arrow 55. Here's a link to that head's specs:
http://www.millertripods.com/upload/File/products/208/Arrow55%20Fluid%20Head%20and%20Systems.pdf

While its true the Sachtler 20 S1 head has a wider load range, with legs it also costs $3,774 more than the Arrow 55 with comparable legs through B&H.

Rob also mentioned that his style of shooting is more stationary, with head loads around 40 pounds with Red One. The minimum head load of the Arrow 55 is 22 pounds - thus the Arrow 55 is an excellent head choice for Rob's style of work and average head load - plus he saved $3,774 over the Sachtler. Both those heads have 7 selectable fluid drag settings for both pan and drag.

I mentioned in my previous post that the Miller 55 has been my head of choice with Red One for a wide variety of mobile style work. But I also mentioned that for my mobile work with Epic, with which I almost exclusively use 35mm still lenses, that the Miller Compass 25 is my head of choice. The Compass 25 supports a head range of 8.8 pounds to 30.9 pounds (4-14kg), thus it is ideal for mobile hybrid EFP style work with Epic using 35mm still lenses - or even mobile B camera cine style work with lightweight setups.

Here's a link to the Miller Compass 25 specs:
http://www.millertripods.com/upload/File/products/256/Compass%2025%20head%20and%20systems.pdf

The Miller Compass 25 head sells on B&H for just $2,500
Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/721712-REG/Miller_1038_Compass_25_Fluid_Head.html

If someone was to buy the Miller Arrow 55 head/legs combo for $6,189, and the Compass 25 head alone for $2,500 the total cost would be $8,689 - still a$1,274 savings over buying the Sachtler System 20 S1/legs combo.

I've attached a recent photo I received from my associate Ketch Rossi of Epic M8, jointly owned by myself and Ketch, in action in Dubai. Ketch has his own Miller Compass 25 head too - and absolutely loves it with Epic for his mobile work with Epic.

I've also attached a Feb 2011 photo of Epic M8 on one of my earlier model Miller Arrow 55 heads (Arrow HD). Accessorized with the Red Brick, ET Hybrid plate, 19mm 12" rods, Ruby 14-24, LCD, Side Handle with Red Volt, and Red Matte Box, the head load for that setup was just 13 pounds - well below the supposed minimum head load for the Miller 55 - and the head action with that light load was excellent.

There's another pic attached of a max-load (58 pounds) on one of my older Miller 55 heads in Hawaii at the Pipeline Masters surfing event in 2007. One of the rare times early on when I used a cine lens and matte box (notice no FF though). The head worked perfectly at that max load level - glass smooth through all the pans and tilts of close action follow of the surfing action.

The final pic is me shooting for a Nat Geo documentary in Alaska using a Miller Arrow 55 and Miller CF legs to support my Canon 150-600 setup. Head load was about 28 pounds. Again, perfect head action with that head load.

Post script:
The original poster (Rob Anderson) is an associate of mine. Based on my recommendations in this thread, and via email, he ended up buying the Miller Arrow 55 head/legs combo from B&H for $6,189. When he received it a few days ago he emailed me thanking me for my advice, and expressing his deep satisfaction with the quality of it.

I have great respect for the top-level heads made by Sachtler, O'Connor, Miller, and Vinten. I've used tons of each over the years. But as I mentioned before, IMO the performance to price ratio of the Miller heads is the best in this industry.

A. Clint Litton

01-27-2012, 09:23 AM

+1 on the Miller. I love O'Connor heads, but while the 1030 is conceivably light enough to bring on a hike up a mountain, it's not the ideal head for such activities...furthermore, the HDS has a limited tilt range, which could eventually become a problem. I've owned a Sachtler Video 25 for my Red setup (with Cooke 20-100 zoom, so not far off the size you're working with), and I thought it was a great size for it's capacity, but still heavier than what you'd ideally want, and as many have already stated, the Miller should be able to compensate just fine under such payloads.

I haven't used the Miller Arrow 55 in the field, but I've used smaller Arrow heads in the past and always loved them from an operational standpoint.

The only other question I want to raise is would it be worthwhile to swap legs in your package? I've used these Miller legs, and while they're fairly easy to set-up (especially if you're on your own), I felt they were missing some of the robustness I've experienced with Sachtler legs. Just a thought, possibly worth considering down the road...you can always get the package and see how it works for you. In the meantime, if it's possible, try to get your hands on these heads/sticks for personal testing.

HTH,
Clint

Steve Gibby

01-27-2012, 09:51 AM

Good question Clint...

For less mobile work with Red One I use a combination of Miller Arrow 55 head, and Miller Sprinter II Sprinter II 2-stage CF legs (mid-spreader).
Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/422064-REG/Miller_1576_1576_Sprinter_II_2.html

For super mobile work with Red One I use a combination of Miller Arrow 55 head, and Miller Solo 1505 spreaderless 3-stage CF legs.
Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/327753-REG/Miller_1505_SOLO_VJ_Carbon_Fiber.html

Since virtually all of what I shoot with Epic is mobile hybid EFP style using 35mm still lenses and no MB or FF, for all my Epic work I use the Compass 25 head, with either my Miller Solo legs for high mobility, or my Miller Sprinter II CF legs for more stationary work. The Solo CF legs are rated for 66 pounds, and the Sprinter II CF legs are rated for 99 pounds, so both sets of legs support way beyond the highest head load of both the Compass 25 (31 pounds) and Arrow 55 (55 pounds) heads.

Then once in a great while if I have to shoot a project with a head load way above the max of the Compass 25, I simply use my Arrow 55 head on the Sprinter II legs. Best of both worlds, I have four different head/legs combos available to choose from.

Everyone just really needs to closely analyze the style of shooting they do (cine or hybrid EFP), the lenses and accessories they use in that style, and then finally the head loads they normally have - then plan and buy accordingly. When they buy though, they need to then analyze which head/legs combo or combos have the best performance to price ratio. To me, that's been Miller for several years now...

Ryan De Franco

01-27-2012, 10:26 AM

Steve, been reading your positive comments on Miller for years, recently tried a Cartoni Focus HD beside a Miller... The difference was there but hard to determine if the 3x price jump is worth it.

Does anyone have field experience with both heads and a 12-20 lb setup? Thanks very much.

Rob Anderson

01-28-2012, 06:34 PM

I wanted to get some time with the Miller before commenting again, but as Steve already said above, I messaged him within just a few days of receiving the kit and told him I really appreciated the suggestion. The Miller is a great buy and quite honestly, does everything exactly how I want it to. Great product and it's a solid, sturdy rig.

I am using the setup in two configurations, one with a decked out RED One attached (handles, original EVF, 5" screen, v-lock batteries, lots of connections, Teradek wireless, rails, 18-85 RP Zoom plus bracket and handle, RP matte box, etc. The Miller handles it just beautifully. I bought the Miller offset quick plate for this purpose.

The second setup is with an Epic (currently rented, but our own will be here shortly). We're using the Epic, the quick lock, a dovetail plate, 5" touch, and a gaping hole where our side handle and REDmote are waiting to be placed (please come quick!). Even with the 300mm attached, the combination is just superb. Does everything wonderfully. Also cleans up nice after a trek into the dusty, dirty, SW desert.

Finally, for mobile work, we're keeping the One in the studio and carrying only the Epic for now. For that combination, we're using the Gitzo Monopod 5561T and going very light-weight. Great combination for our purposes. Couldn't be happier. We have the E Mantis shoulder system to use, but have not had the need just yet.

Going to buy the Miller locking wheels dolly system to add to the tripod soon. I really enjoy that setup.

Thanks again everyone for their recommendations. Very helpful.

**UPDATE: Unfortunately see next post below.

Rob Anderson

02-18-2012, 04:24 PM

Tehben Dean

02-18-2012, 05:47 PM

Rob Anderson

02-18-2012, 06:14 PM

Steve Gibby

02-19-2012, 11:53 AM

Well this is a bummer. Received our unit the very end of January. Up until today, we were very impressed. Now just 3 weeks after receipt, the head is cracked and is unstable. We have no idea how the head cracked. It has been mounted and locked down on the Miller dolly transport system for weeks.

First sign of damage; Today I locked down the wheels and was holding the neck of the tripod while my AC bumped the extended arm when she removed the RED One. I was standing on the opposite side, and felt a light shock as the One rails caught the edge of the handle and bumped the unit a bit. Thought absolutely nothing of it. After returning from dinner, discovered the handle loose and cracked. Head unstable. Fissure lines around supporting beam. Small piece of the head directly underneath the tripod. Impossible the damage could have been there before and our studio has soft wood floors. Any heavy drops would show. Absolutely zero chance the tripod was knocked over and today, only myself had the keys. No chance we could have locked down the One and used the handle, without noticing this kind of damage earlier.

Disappointed to say the least. Just filed a support form on the Miller website. Waiting to hear back now. Hope Miller will resolve this.

If the heads crack like this under completely un-extraordinary conditions (bumped by a RED One!?), I can't even imagine them holding up to field work or rentals. Very glad we didn't hike up the side of a mountain with this (that trip isn't happening until the beginning of April).

I guess this is what happens when something comes into contact with an immovable force like RED...[/IMG]

For the past five years with Red cameras me and my crews have used multiple Miller tripod combos, including the Arrow 55, on constant super-demanding productions all over the world - and never had any problems at all with the heads or legs. Nobody on the planet has used Miller heads and legs in more demanding situations than me and my crews - mobile production in mountains, deserts, tropics, etc. Beyond that, scores of Red camera owners who do indie work (especially mobile EFP work) have taken my recommendations and bought Miller heads and legs for use with Red One and now Epic. To my knowledge absolutely none of them have ever had problems with their Miller equipment - let alone a problem like you are reporting.

The above in mind, what you are reporting is a one of a kind situation. If Miller had a history of cracking heads or legs, word travels fast in this overall industry and we'd have long since heard about it. The fact is they don't. In fact me, my crews, and the industry at large has found Miller heads and legs to be strong, durable, to perform well, and at the same time to be cost-effective.

If you've already filed a form with Miller, why do you feel the need to "sound an alarm" about this unusual situation to this forum? All that does is spread unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD). Isn't this something you can solve quickly on your own with Miller without broadcasting your unique and unusual experience to the world?

About your problem:
Mlller heads and legs are very strong and in even the most extreme use simply don't have catastrophic failure like you've reported. Throughout my career in this industry I've extensively used tripods head and legs from every professional manufacturer - and usually when I've seen head cracking right at the point where the handle attaches to the head (like in your photos) is when a tripod has fallen over right onto the handle, thus putting a tremendous amount of strain where the handle attaches to the head. Tripod heads are made out of cast aluminum - and thus they're quite strong. I don't know what happened in your particular situation, but a good guess is that at some point the tripod fell over onto the handle area and weakened the area where it connects, or someone dropped the tripod onto the extended handle, thus weakening the attachment area. Then your AC clipping the handle with a rail of Red One may have simply opened up and greatly worsened a pre-existing crack. So, could this falling over or dropping of the head have happened before you received the head? Yes, its feasible it could have happened at the factory - if there was a handle attached at the time to create enough pressure and leverage on the handle to create a hairline crack where the handle attaches. But its also feasible that the falling over or drop happened sometime since you took delivery of the head - that an assistant of yours or someone moving about your studio in fact tipped the tripod over, striking the end of the handle and thus weakening there the handle attaches. I'm not making accusations here - just presenting concepts as to how this may have been caused.

Whether Miller buys into the slight bump on the handle scenario as the sole cause for the crack in the handle base area will remain to be seen. I think it would be better if you solved this situation directly with Miller from here on out though.

Steve Gibby

02-19-2012, 12:42 PM

I have an ARROW 55 and love it.

I will say that heads in this weight range are not ideal for a RED1 with heavy lesns IMHO.
I originally used it for a RED1/RPZ 18-85 combo and while it worked, if you bumped the camera or even use it in windy conditions you are likely to have some locked off shots not turn out perfectly smooth. I imagine it will be PERFECT for EPIC.

It does look like Steve has been happy with it even with heavy loads though.

Over the past five years with Red cameras me and my crews have repeated mounted camera setups on my Miller 55 heads that ranged from 16 pounds up to 55 pounds - and the heads handled the loads beautifully. No matter what the head load - heavy, medium, or light - its been easy and quick to adjust the heads for that particular load. When adjusted properly to the load, the head action has been spot-on - extremely smooth in pans and tilts.

When using long focal length lenses in strong cross winds with any manufacturer's tripod combinations, you're at risk of shaky shots. In those conditions I get basically the same amount of frame shake from using my Miller 55 heads as when using big heavy heads like my O'Connor 2575. Strong cross wind on the long focal length lens is creating the image shake, not the tripod head.

I've attached several photos of me using my Red One and Epic cameras with heavy head loads on my Miller 55 heads. The heaviest load is in that photo of me shooting the Pipeline Masters pro surfing event on Oahu using an Optimo 12x. The camera package weighed exactly 55 pounds - the published maximum for the Miller 55 head - and the head performed flawlessly under extremely demanding circumstances, while I constantly panned and tilted following the surfing action. The head also performed perfectly with those other heavy loads pictured too.

For mobile indie EFP work with Red One I've found the Miller 55 head to be an ideal combination of weight, performance, and price. That said, with my Epic camera setups, which are naturally lighter than Red One setups, I'm using the Miller Arrow 55 and the Miller Compass 25. The Compass 25 has a maximum head load of 31 pounds - perfect for mobile EFP work with Epic using 35mm still lenses. The Compass 25 head performs very well.

Rob Anderson

02-19-2012, 01:07 PM

I'm not sounding an alarm. I'm updating an experience thread and I will be overjoyed to also let everyone know when Miller takes care of the problem. If anything, I think the fact that this could be a one of a kind problem and Miller acting quickly to fix the problem and me reporting all of that here, would go even further to prove that Miller really is the kind of brand that deserves such positive recognition.

As for your assessment, I have security cameras inside of my studio and I've reviewed the footage. What you suggest never happened -- at least not in many recent days. The cracks occurred from being jarred when bumped against a RED One being lifted out of the mount. It's as simple as that. Obviously a materials and/or manufacturing defect. And clearly the kind of thing that any studio gear should be built to handle and in fact does.

Not sure why you're coming at me Steve. I'm not suggesting Miller builds poor quality products or anything like that -- I've updated an experience thread with my experience and I will gladly continue to do so when it gets resolved. I look forward to affirming that Miller is a stand up builder and is quick to address these kinds of problems; something I hope really is the case.

Larry Gebhardt

02-19-2012, 01:31 PM

Just to add bit of "engineering" to the comment mix...these heads, including Miller, O’Connor, Sachtler, etc, are made mostly of cast aluminum...not cast iron (you would have a really tough time carrying them up mountainsides if they were made of cast iron).

I was an engineer in a past life before I got into film quite a few years ago...I helped design aluminum castings for the aerospace industry. Cast aluminum is fairly brittle as you can see by the pictures, the porous nature of the broken cross sections. It is also fairly strong (not near as strong from an impact standpoint as other alloys of aluminum), but in the casting process, there is always a chance of impurities getting into the mix that can really effect the strength of small areas of the part.

That is what I think happened here... just a small defect that occurred at the worst possible place...where the stresses are amplified by the pan handle.

This should be all be under warranty.

I also have to say that one of things I enjoy about this forum is the sharing of experiences, good and bad, as long as they are respectful. We all learn from others. I believe that is the case here.

Larry

Tehben Dean

02-19-2012, 01:58 PM

@ Steve, The head I agree is very smooth pan/tilt even with heavy loads but what I was experiencing is some "flex" which I presume is from having the load extended way out over either side of the CG and I assume this would be less with a beefier Head and Legs...

Steve Gibby

02-19-2012, 02:52 PM

Rob,
I'm sure Miller will analyze what you said happened and get the situation solved. I'm coming at you because I was the one who took the time to answer your questions here and via email, recommended the head, and you bought it. I'm thinking if you trusted my advice well enough to buy the head, and read all the positive reports here on that head, then you had that problem, you'd immediately realize that it was an unusual situation. Its always better to go directly to the maker and get something solved than to post it over Internet forums where FUD spreads like a wildfire. You're new to Red User, but I can tell you as one of the very first members of Red User that there has been a long sequence of people posting up knee jerk negative reactions to products (Red and otherwise), then readers assuming they've heard about a supposed widespread defect in the product, spread what they suppose is "accurate" info around the Internet - when most often it really isn't the case. In this case since I recommended the head, so in effect my reputation is at stake - and I take that seriously. No worries - I'm sure you'll get this solved quickly.

Larry,
Simply a typo on my part - thinking aluminum and somehow typed iron. As you'd guess I very aware that tripod heads are made of cast aluminum, not cast iron. I've correctly that mis-type in my original post. I would agree that cast aluminum is fairly strong - but obviously anything made of cast aluminum can be broken if its put to stresses beyond what it was designed for. As you said there can also be defects in cast aluminum. That doesn't necessarily mean that was the case n this situation, but naturally there is always that possibility. All other tripod manufacturers make basically all their heads out of cast aluminum so this could and probably does occasionally happen to any maker's heads.

Tehben,
Very good point - center of gravity is critical in setting up any head load on a tripod system, or for that matter on a should held rig. When setting up and mounting heavy head loads I'm way careful to get the COG exactly where it should be. Then the head action is what it should be. I experienced no "flex" that affected my shots in that max load in the Optimo 12 shot - 55 pound load. My work often involves very tightly framed fast action following of sports figures or wild animals in motion. As you'd imagine, because of that I'm real picky about head performance and the legs I use. Each of those long lens Red One and Epic setups in the pics are real-world setups I use for close action following - and the head performance was spot-on. Everybody's shooting style varies though - but I just report what works for me and my crews in the genres we work in.

Rob Anderson

02-19-2012, 03:00 PM

I believe Larry nailed it above -- an impurities problem that caused the defect. If the tripod had taken a tumble (hard to imagine on Miller's own rolling casters/dolly system and we never leave cameras mounted), there would be indentations on our soft wood floors. Even a slight drop from a grip caliper has left a mark. Further, the arm itself would show marks and the missing bit of the fluid head would not be found directly underneath.

No, I do not believe this is a case of "being used incorrectly" which has been suggested a couple times now.

Nothing on your reputation at all Steve -- you recommended a good product and I'm glad I bought it. It will be an even better product if the manufacturer steps up and resolves the problem without a hitch. I look forward to reporting that as being the case here. Hardly a case of jumping the gun or being trigger happy. I'm only reporting on the experience thus far and I'll continue to do so.

Tehben Dean

02-19-2012, 04:52 PM

@Steve
Yep it works great with movement. For perfectly still shot where the camera is locked down or with the tripod on a moving dolly and you have starts and stops etc is where I have noticed the flex cause more care needed to not have unwanted movement. I guess my point is if you put the RED one/large lense on and lock it down then nudge either end of the camera the head/legs will flex a lot more then with a larger head.

Steve Gibby

02-19-2012, 06:10 PM

Rob,
I'm sure you'll get this situation solved quickly and then be able to move ahead with your work...

Tehben,
I understand. If you haven't tried this, especially with long lenses, use a lot of drag on both the pan and tilt head setup. The added pressure needed on the handle makes for smoother pans/tilts, and helps the starts/stops of camera movement be smoother. Too light of drag tends to leave slight shakes when a pan or tilt is started and stopped. There's no doubt that bigger tripod heads are more stable platforms - but when we gain something we give something up. Bigger heads are less mobile but more stable - smaller heads are more mobile but less stable. That's one of the reasons why for Red One especially I've used the Miller 55 head - its an all around head, medium sized, quite stable, good action, and lightweight (thus highly mobile). For EFP stationary big camera setup work, and for cine style big camera setup work, a much bigger head can be a good choice. I also think the flex you're talking about can also because by the type of sticks used, how rigid they are, and how far apart the spreader allows you to get them. Solid sticks, spread far apart, stabilize the entire tripod combo - thus the heavier the head load, the more solid and farther apart the legs need to be to keep head action smooth. With a heavier head itself, and heavier legs its not so critical - but then you lose a lot of your mobility with the rig.

Rob Anderson

02-21-2012, 12:49 AM

Did not receive a call back from my website inquiry but I spoke with Miller support today and they were friendly and receptive. Advised me to ship the fluid head back to them for inspection and review and they will evaluate for a warranty replacement. All sounds good and fair so far. I'll have the head on a carrier truck tomorrow and the ETA for turn around is 6 days.

Rob Anderson

05-21-2012, 01:27 AM

Realized I neglected to update this thread with the outcome. I shipped the head to Miller and 2 days later received a part replacement quote of $240.42. That included a slight discount for parts and labor. I was surprised to get the quote, although the price seemed very reasonable for this kind of repair work. I followed up with an email asking why the head would not be covered under warranty as it seemed to be a simple matter of a materials impurity or defect of some kind. The response stated they inspected the break and did not detect, "Any air bubbles or contaminates in the metal." Ok. Not sure how to assess that.

I guess my final outcome is Miller fixed and repaired the head at a reasonable price, although would not cover the work under warranty. A little disappointed by that. Had I incurred the damage through a drop or some kind of extreme use (not sure what else could happen), or if the head was simply well worn and aged, I would have certainly understood the price and probably would be pleasantly surprised by the quote. As-is, I feel like I got tagged a weird tax and temporary loss of use.

In the end, not sure I can suggest these heads be used for rental houses. "Built like a tank" definitely doesn't apply here. But for the private user, knowing the repair costs are very reasonable, I think your overall upfront savings make up for any potential defects or later-found problems.

I'd personally buy Miller again, but I don't think I'll let this kit get borrowed.

Steve Gibby

05-21-2012, 08:49 AM

Rob,

My opinion of the situation you described is that its an anomaly, a one-off exception to the normal quality and dependability of Miller products. Sorry you had this experience, but readers here should clearly understand that problems of any kind with Miller equipment are extremely unusual.

Me and my crews have been using miller heads and legs extensively for over a decade now in the most demanding mobile environments on earth - desert, mountains, tropics - and we've had zero problems with any of the heads or legs. No defects, no breakage, no problems whatsoever. None of the multiple business associates of mine who use Miller products have mentioned to me any kind of problems with their equipment either. The type of mobile work we do - adventure travel, alternative sports, nature, music, documentaries - pushes equipment to the maximum, involving a continuous sequence of setups, take downs, and transports. It is way more demanding than any rental situation someone would face by renting their equipment out.

I recently returned from three weeks of intensive mobile action sports and adventure travel production in the Austrian Alps using one of my Epic cameras on one of my Miller tripod setups - an Arrow 55 head on Miller Sprinter II, 2-stage, mid-spreader CF legs. The work involved a seemingly endless sequence of setups, takedowns, and transports high in the brutal alpine environment - and as usual I had zero issues with the Miller equipment (see pic attached).

For a recent 3D shoot me and the crew tortured beyond belief one of my Miller tripod setups with a super heavy Epic 3D setup - a 41 pound head load on a Miller Compass 25/Miller Solo CF legs combo, though Miller's published maximum head load should be 31 pounds - and the head performed flawlessly under the over-gross load through several days of setups, take downs, and transports (see pics attached).

I've also attached a shot of me working in Hawaii a few years ago with one of my earlier Miller 55 heads - with a 58 pound head load package consisting of an accessorized Red One and Angenieux 24-290 zoom, on Miller 1-stage alloy legs. The head/legs combo performed perfectly under that giant load in tropical heat and rain for two weeks of intense mobile, multiple setup work.

We've found Miller equipment to be fantastically dependable under the most demanding conditions for over a decade now. Beyond the dependability, the head and leg performance has been exactly what we needed and expected. Again, sorry you had the bad experience you noted, but something like that is highly unusual for Miller equipment.

C.H.Haskell

05-22-2012, 04:44 PM

Hey Steve, I am picking up the miller compass 25, can you suggest a set of sticks to match that wont break the bank? I am not so into telescoping. Thanks for any tips, I am pulling trigger tomorrow from BnH. C

Steve Gibby

05-22-2012, 08:49 PM

Hey Clay,

I think you'll really be stoked with the Compass 25 head. It has a 100mm bowl so you have a wide range of legs to choose from. Here are the B&H links to the two Miller leg types I use with the Compass 25:

Compass 25/Solo CF 1505 spreaderless:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/721697-REG/Miller_1857_Compass_25_Solo_ENG.html

Compass 25/Sprinter II CF 2-stage mid-spreader:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/721696-REG/Miller_1854_Compass_25_Sprinter_II.html

The first three attached photos in my last post on this thread show the Compass 25/Solo CF 1505 in use with one of our Epic 3D rigs setups. The legs allow you to set up the head as low as 8" above the ground, or all the way up to 72" above the ground. The legs themselves are inexpensive - under $1k. If you're going to do a lot of real mobile work with medium or light weight Epic head loads the Compass 25/Solo CF combo is a very good choice.

The Compass 25/Sprinter II CF combo is more expensive, but its also a great package for mobile work with medium or light weight Epic head loads, whether it be cine style, hybrid style, or EFP style. The Sprinter II legs have what Miller calls Quik-Loks in each leg. With the snap of a separate lever for each of the two stages you can easily and quickly change the elevation of the tripod.

The Solo legs weigh about 6.5 pounds, and the Sprinter II legs weigh about 8 pounds. The Compass 25 head weighs around 7 pounds. No matter which way you go the tripod combo is lightweight and thus very mobile. The Compass 25 head is rated to support a max of 31 pounds, but as you can see from the photos in my previous post where I used it with a 41 pound head load, the head is very strong.

I have a pretty good feel for the type of production you do, so my recommendation if you can is for you to get the Sprinter I CF legs with mid-spreader for your work. If cash is scarce right now then the Solo CF legs would also serve you well - then you could simply add in the Sprinter II legs when you have the extra funds to do so. I love having both the Sprinter II CF and Solo CF legs available to mix and match with my Comass 25 and Arrow 55 heads - that makes for lots of head/legs combinations for any production scenario I may face.

Let me know what you end up getting and how it works out for you!

Nathaniel Haban

05-23-2012, 06:44 PM

Many thanks to the OP and Steve for their feedback and follow-though on this post. The Miller 55 kit mentioned (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469664-REG/Miller_1741_1741_Arrow_55_Tripod.html) was exactly the one I've been looking at. Very pleasantly surprised by the glowing reviews.

Steve Gibby

05-25-2012, 07:35 AM

Thanks Nathaniel...I'm glad the info helped you. As I've previously posted, for about 10 years now me and my crews have had great performance and dependability from my Miller 55 head/legs combos, and my other model Miller head/legs combos. So has basically everyone I know, or know of who has used or bought Miller head/legs combos - except this unusual problem posted by one person on this thread.

Over my career I've also owned and used extensively head/tripod combos from every other major manufacturer - Sachtler, O'Connor, Vinten, etc. All these manufacturers make quality head/legs combos, but for the past decade when its came down to buying my own equipment, its all been Miller for the reasons I've posted in this thread.

I'd say really focus in on the overwhelming number of satisfied owner and user posts about Miller heads and legs which you'll find here on Red User and on tons of other online forums. If you test out a Miller Arrow 55 head with either the Sprinter II CF 2-stage mid spreader legs, or the Solo 1505 CF spreader-less legs, my guess is you will be super happy with the performance, and also the reasonable price compared to other top end head/legs manufacturers. In my opinion Miller's performance to price ratio is the best ratio you'll find in the head/leg manufacturing industry. The dual bottom lines are that the proof is in the testing...and in the check book ;)

I haven't had to deal with Miller's Customer Service department because I've never had any problems of any kind with their products, to where I even had a need to contact them for assistance. But I have met their staff at NAB and chatted with them at length - and they're a great bunch of people.

Yousuf Abbasi

06-05-2012, 10:46 AM

MILLER 1741 ARROW 55:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469664-REG/Miller_1741_1741_Arrow_55_Tripod.html

SACHTLER SYSTEM 20 S1 HD MCF:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/706568-REG/Sachtler_2073S1_System_20_S1_HD.html

OCONNOR 1030HDSPKG (+ MILLER ENG CARBON FIBER 2-STAGE TRIPOD):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481863-REG/OConnor_1030HDS_PKG_1030HDSPKG_Professional_Studio _Fluid.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/232996-REG/Miller_925_ENG_Carbon_Fiber_2_Stage.html

Just want to chime in and say that I've used the Sachtlers quite a bit (owned 20SB and 18SB) and these are EXCEPTIONAL heads! Construction is high quality and movement is smooth and precise. While Miller is a great head for the money, it's literally like a difference between a Ford and BMW (let's be honest, German construction is quite superior).

BUT I am a big believer in using whatever gets the job done, and for that reason Miller 55 is also one of my favorite heads because, as Steve wisely pointed out, price-to-performance ratio is enticing. I just don't know if I would ever see a Sachtler crack in the same way as you described your Miller experience.

Steve Gibby

06-06-2012, 08:52 AM

Yousuf,

Over the past 30+ years I've owned and used basically every make of high end head head and legs extensively at one time or another - Sachtler, O'Connor, Vinten, Miller, etc. Early in my career I favored Sachtler and Vinten for the mobile EFP work I was doing - and back then I would have agreed with your Ford/BMW analogy. But in my opinion over the past 10 years there's been a significant change in the dynamics and product offerings in the head/legs marketplace. Companies like Miller and to a certain extent Cartoni have caught up with the previously dominant head/legs makers, namely Sachtler and O'Connor. I speak regularly about the excellent price to performance ratio of Miller heads and legs - but on this thread and others I've also emphasized my high opinion of the design and fabrication of Miller products. Again, in my opinion the problem Rob reported with his Miller Arrow 55 head is a freak occurrence, an anomaly, and in no way is it indicative of the design and fabrication quality of Miller heads.

All current manufacturer's heads are made from nearly identical metal ingredients, so in my opinion this same crack in head by an arm attachment point could happen on any manufacturer's head given enough pressure or stress on that area. In the super-mobile work me and my crews do, my multiple Miller heads have been put through way more stress-filled conditions than Rob reported that his head failed in - and we've had zero problems or failures with the heads or legs - and neither has any of my associates who use Miller heads and legs.

In my opinion today's Miller heads are designed and fabricated on a par with the heads made by Sachtler and O'Connor - but the Miller heads have a much better price to performance ratio than either Sachtler or O'Connor. In my opinion a Ford/BMW comparison is outdated - a BMW/Lexus/Infinity analogy is much more appropriate. All those autos are well designed, well assembled, and will give you good performance and reliability - as will heads from Sachtler, O'Connor, and Miller - but in the case of heads one brand costs significantly less than the other two, and that's Miller.

I'm one of those rare industry veterans who isn't hung up on tradition or peer pressure. I use equipment that makes the most operational and fiscal sense - "a penny saved is a penny earned". BTW I've always had a high opinion of German engineering - I've owned five Sachtler heads, three different BMW cars, and three different Porsche cars. But I've also owned several different Japanese cars and trucks. In auto engineering the Japanese caught up with the Germans a few decades ago. In tripod head/leg design and fabrication some manufacturers like O'Connor caught up with Sachtler a long time ago - and in the past decade Miller caught up with both of them.

Among the top level heads and legs available at present, someone's purchase and/or usage choice is essentially based on familiarity, personal taste, favored features, peer pressure, and industry niche tradition. O'Connor has dominated the cine style marketplace - but this particular Red User forum is about EFP and ENG work with Red cameras. In EFP and ENG work Sachtler, and to a lesser extent Vinten, dominated the industry in the '80's and '90's. But since around 2000 Miller has come on really strong with a greatly improved array of head and leg offerings.

Rob Anderson

06-07-2012, 12:49 AM

Agree with your assessment, Steve. Miller makes a good product and does stand by it. Glad for our purchase.

Steve Gibby

06-08-2012, 09:55 AM

Thanks Rob...I hope your business does fantastic there in Las Vegas. As you know, my home studio is just over 2 hours north of Vegas in Southern Utah, so I always fly out of Vegas to various areas of the US and world for work. Sometime when I'm coming or going out of Vegas I'll give you a call and hopefully we can meet up.

Yousuf Abbasi

06-08-2012, 11:53 AM

Steve- I was browsing the Miller.com website and noticed that your photo was on the cover page ! That's pretty cool.. I didn't realize you were so involved with Miller. Are you sponsored by them?

By the way, I'm pretty sure if you've taken your Miller 55 across the globe and it has held up very nicely, that is proof enough its a great head. Thanks for sharing your experience on this setup, I'm glad there are still companies making high quality products and not charging an arm and a leg for them.

Steve Gibby

06-08-2012, 01:09 PM

Yousuf,

As mentioned, I've been using Miller heads and legs extensively for about 10 years now. At last year's NAB I met the Miller staff and spent some time with them - great bunch of people. In those conversations I mentioned to them how long I've been using their heads and legs, how dependable they've been for me, and the affordable prices for them. I'd previously noticed that they have a Miller Sharpshooter section on their web site where people who use their equipment could submit field production stories about using Miller equipment. I suggested that I'd be happy to write up some of my experiences for them. I did that and now there are a couple of my field experience stories on their site, including a recent production in the Austrian Alps where I used my Arrow 55/Sprinter II setup for three weeks shooting world class pro snowboarders. The photo of me you saw on the Miller cover page is from that Austria gig.

About 7 months ago Miller offered to sponsor me and I accepted. It was a good move for both me and them since I'd already been buying, using, and enjoying their equipment for a decade! I've posted here on Red User on a few other threads in the past 7 months that Miller sponsors me now. Keep in mind that my high opinions of Miller equipment have been posted here on Red User since Red User was first formed in December 2006. Before that I posted over several years on other online forums how much I liked their equipment.

Miller has a staff similar to Red - knowledgeable, personable, down to earth, and professional.

I've tortured the heck out of my Miller heads and legs over the years - and the head action is spot on, plus I've never had a problem of any kind with them. In my previous post that 58 pound Red One/Optimo 12x rig on one of my Miller 55 heads is a good example. That shot of our 41 pound Epic 3D rig on my Compass 25 head which is rated for 31 pound is another good example.

No amount of sponsorship could induce me to say complimentary things about products I don't believe in. Miller is way cool. As you said, they make high quality products and don't charge an arm and a leg for them. That's a great combo...