4K Delivery...

[Jannard]

We are very happy to hear Panasonic and Sony announce their 4K displays at CES today. That allows us to finally announce that RED has been developing for release a 4K delivery system.

We have been committed to 4K from day one. It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen. We always believed that 1080P was a stop-gap along the way to 4K.

We will be announcing details of the RED 4K Delivery system at NAB in April.

Jim

[C.H.Haskell]

Excellent...see you all there in April!

[martinnoweck]

Hi Jim,

sounds like more good news.

Are you talking about single displays / projectors or a whole Digital Cinema System?

;-)

best regards,
martin

[Erik Rangel]

4K set top box?

[Graeme Nattress]

4k in the home. Now that's a worthy goal!

Graeme

[number6]

And to think, this is all coming to pass during MY lifetime. When I was a child, I never dreamed this could happen.

My very oun personal cinema!

[Ivan G]

Dam and I just bought the panasonic 2K plasma :angry03: I'm really hoping to get just a little bit of info before April just to make future decisions easier. Jim.......Sell or Hold!?! :innocent:

[Curran Giddens]

Great! I am glad I haven't bought a 1080p TV.... I'll wait for the 4K!

[ChristopherKenworthy]

Jim, can you imagine how popular this is going to be? You're not going to be assembling and packing these things yourself this time.

I can't wait to see how you improve on the Sony and Panasonic displays. Better and cheaper, I imagine...

[Jarred Land]

Its gonna be one hell of a NAB this year...

[Erik Rangel]

Just as the hd format war was getting a front runner, RED comes and makes them both obsolete.

[martinnoweck]

And to think, this is all coming to pass during MY lifetime. When I was a child, I never dreamed this could happen.

but you dreamed of 4k displays ... ;-)

[Michael Schrengohst]

Now you need a new format - REDRAY

[number6]

but you dreamed of 4k displays ... ;-)

Yeah, I had ESP even before they put an N on the end.:w00t:

[Ivan G]

Since Sony nor Panasonic have devices that capture 4k does that mean these displays debuted because of RED?

[Graeme Nattress]

Jarred, you're going to win "understatement of the year" award if you go on like that.

Graeme

[Peter McCully]

I didn't think I'd ever hear it but "downscaling to 1080p"??

[Thor Wixom]

I hope the Red NAB booth is bigger this year. It's going to need the extra circumference for the longer line!

-Thor

[nellie22]

and I thought I would share. The lady says it is 4K... 8 by 11. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khb0HUIMZ6Y

[Seth Larney]

You guys rock .. this is much sooner than I'd hoped for !
S.

[Rick Darge]

I thought this thread was going to be, "Surprise, 4k delivery of the next batch of cameras, starttttttiiiinnnngggg nnnnooooooowwwww ! "

But I guess not..





..sorry, I'm getting obsessed in the 11th hour.

[Tonaci Tran]

NAB is going to be nuts.

Just in case you guys are wondering about the 4k displays Jim is talking about, I think they are:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/06/video-82-inch-4k-sony-prototype-display-gets-showcased/

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2008/01/07/ces-panasonics-toshihiro-sakamoto-unveils-150-inch-plasma-display/

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/07/panasonics-gigantic-150-inch-plasma-is-official/

I would love to see these behemoths hooked up to RED's 4k delivery system in the RED booth. I can already picture Mike Curtis with his headset doing a redcine demonstration dwarfed by the 150inch panny he is standing next to.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Beautiful! Just beautiful.......

A company I work with is looking to develop a Peterbilt RED truck with a darkroom style RED offloading station and a dailies lounge.....

A 4K display would be the ultimate display to compliment such a goal.

Can't wait till NAB to see another one of Jim's crazy ideas come to life!

2008 is going to be a roller coaster ride!

[Paul Hazlett]

You know what would be a really great surprise for NAB,
if you guys did not tell anyone but us where your booth was until doors
open at NAB.

[Sven Seynaeve]

I think this will force us , future scratch and 4k users , and especially assimilate and affiliate companies to solve the 4k output situation and devellop this feature (if they haven't already, but I suppose they haven't yet).

We want 4k output when necessary for these devices;)

[Steve Freebairn]

So, I'm Guessing That This Is A 4 Dual Hd Sdi System To Play Out To The Monitors?

[Alan Skinner]

Hmmmmmm....
I have one of my special agents at CES right now and I have not heard back from them. This forum (and YouTube) are getting me intel more quickly than even my best placed people!!! :)

Agent 23x76 is probably at the BlackJack table now...............................

Natasha, bring me the special Bomba!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Well ... I know what we are buying for the new Offhollywood facility ...

[Don Woods]

Wow I am getting pretty gitty about NAB

[10s]

Jannard, you are the Wild Man!.........this is excellent.

[Andrew Antoniewicz]

You know what would be a really great surprise for NAB,
if you guys did not tell anyone but us where your booth was until doors
open at NAB.

Damn! Too late.

Red Digital Cinema SL3820.

I do feel a little sorry for the Atto Technology folks however. The the line that will circle around the Red booth multiple times is going to be hell to push through.

Here's a link (warning: slow load) to the NAB exhibitor booth location/graphics.
http://www.nab.org/nabshow/vr2/shows/NAB2008/start.html

[noclip]

Once you've got a 150-inch display I'd imagine it pretty much has to be 4K. Even at 1080p you'd see individual pixels from 10 feet away.

[Nathan Garofalos]

In the big 72 inch TV's you can kinda already see the pixels, well, atleast in ours you can them when you stand really close.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have a 71" Samsung 1080p set. I can see individual pixels even on a full 1080p image when I'm 10ft or closer. It actually works out to 31 pixels/inch. At 150" it had better be 4K res, just so I don't have to look at defined pixels and the pitch gap between them. Although at 150", pixels will still present themselves just as they do on any other plasma or on my 71" DLP. We're talking about 31ppi at 4K on a screen that size!

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

jIM ALWAYS DOING THAT . he like's to do it .
he announce story in a puzzle box :matrix: .and wait for a while for every body to understand it and analys it :watsup: . then he explode the box by telling what is inside it. :biggrin: i like his way doing that

[Jannard]

It would seem that we let out all the NAB surprises out of the bag... Scarlet and 4K delivery. But we still have a couple left.

Jim

[jaadgy akanni]

1)Scarlet
2)4k delivery
3)REd Digital/CVB Mattebox?
4)New CF cards?

[Nathan Garofalos]

I really want to go to NAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I am going to. Maybe the RED USERS could all have dinner or something together, that would be fun. ACTUALLY LETS MAKE A VIDEO OF us wearing RED Tshirts and show up at the sony booth all at once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Play it to eye of the tiger, some slow motion, and accelerated clips, that would be funny.

[Sanjin Jukic]

It would seem that we let out all the NAB surprises out of the bag... Scarlet and 4K delivery. But we still have a couple left.

Jim


Absolutely fantastic!!!

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Wow, you guys are really accelerating time ;).

I wonder what Einstein would think of the RED toys.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

ACTUALLY LETS MAKE A VIDEO OF us wearing RED Tshirts and show up at the sony booth all at once!!!!!!!

Yeah, I could write a hymn, somebody could design a little flag.......

;-)

[RivaiC]

Prefer projectors over display..for me

[Hrvoje Simic]

It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen.

Yaaay!

[Mark L. Pederson]

Time to book suites - I am thinking THE PALMS this year for Offhollywood.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Which technology (or plural) shown currently at CES you find the most promising for 4k delivery, Jim?

[Antoine Fabi]

Its gonna be one hell of a NAB this year...

OK OK... I tought i'd miss NAB this year...there was so much people at the RED booth...We had time to chat only 2 minutes with Graeme.

but...you guys know how to "edit" a teaser...

I'll be there!

Make a larger theater please !!!!! a larger booth so we dont have to wait 3 hrs to meet you.

Cheers

Antoine

[Nathan Garofalos]

Yeah, I could write a hymn, somebody could design a little flag.......

;-)


Ill make the flag!!! What should it have on it? I want to make a tshirt that is just red, with a 1 in the middle... Or something else, I dont know. Any ideas?

[Friedrich Moser]

I am really sorry that I can't get there! Thought of making a short post-NAB-road-show? Would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers, Friedrich

[Adam Jeal]

Question for Jim & Jarred: 'delivery system' implies that you also have an authoring solution for creating DCP's (digital cinema packages) i.e. digital prints & cinema servers as well as the projectors and screens. Is this true? If so, this is a game changer and it will seriously rock! :ninja:

adam

[WesVasher]

How do you deliver a 4K stream to the home? What encoding method? You could build a set top box with a decoder in silicon but you'd still need ample storage and a method for distribution. Is it possible to use a Redcode RAW type codec for distribution or is that really only purposed for aquisition? No answers until NAB but we can speculate.

[Russ McDonald]

It would seem that we let out all the NAB surprises out of the bag... Scarlet and 4K delivery. But we still have a couple left.

Jim

No one likes a tease... I would prefer if would you be a big red slut!!!

[conrad gaunt]

I always believed 4k was just a stop gap till 9k

[Aiden Cornwell]

While I love 4k the current tv network and infrastructure can not handle 4k at this time. Maybe in 5-10 years but right now they can barely handle 1080i.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I really hope this resolution race is gonna stop at 4K or at least ~8K. I mean 4K is simply great... 2K is great... hell, even 720p is great :).

[M Most]

Question for Jim & Jarred: 'delivery system' implies that you also have an authoring solution for creating DCP's (digital cinema packages) i.e. digital prints & cinema servers as well as the projectors and screens. Is this true? If so, this is a game changer and it will seriously rock!

If you really believe that, you don't have much experience or knowledge of how studio distribution and politics work.

[JFirestone]

Speaking of 4K delivery. They just built a new theater here in Denver with one of the new 4K sony projectors. I've talked to the theater about renting it out for 4K viewings. I've discovered they use Jpeg2000 codec, which is also wavelet based, and that the movies are generally 300GB and are stored on an internal 1.3 terabyte drive system, or something like that. Anyone know how to encode for this? I also noticed it has a DVI input, but I don't know if it will handle 4K or what video card and codec could deliver that in real time. I imagine the RED team delt with these issues at NAB to do their 4K demonstrations. Any ideas of how we could do this?

Jon Firestone
Denver Colorado
#232

[M Most]

Speaking of 4K delivery. They just built a new theater here in Denver with one of the new 4K sony projectors. I've talked to the theater about renting it out for 4K viewings. I've discovered they use Jpeg2000 codec, which is also wavelet based, and that the movies are generally 300GB and are stored on an internal 1.3 terabyte drive system, or something like that. Anyone know how to encode for this? I also noticed it has a DVI input, but I don't know if it will handle 4K or what video card and codec could deliver that in real time. I imagine the RED team delt with these issues at NAB to do their 4K demonstrations. Any ideas of how we could do this?


Theaters use a digital cinema server, made by various manufacturers and almost always conforming to the current DCI specification (not a standard, but a specification). There are a number of systems available for creating digital cinema packages, the most commonly used are made by Doremi Labs, Dolby Labs, or Qube Cinema. Creating a DCP is not a do it yourself operation and is not meant to be. It involves specific formatting of the image files, color space conversion to X'Y'Z' (i.e., CIE XYZ colorspace encoded to 2.6 gamma), compression of the resulting files, creation of compliant sound track files in a very specific MXF wrapper format, creation and formatting of any subtitles or foreign language tracks, creation of very specifically formatted composition and playlist files, encryption of everything to specific encryption standards, creation of encryption keys, creation and delivery of "key delivery messages" that allow a specific server to play the decrypted files for a specific length of time, and some other things I won't even get into here. There are not only a lot of technical requirements, there is also a great deal of studio politics involved in terms of who creates the packages and, even more importantly, how the key delivery messages are managed. Regardless of what people here want to believe, this is not something you will do on your own at any time in the near future, even for non-studio work. The only real way to do a 4K screening of an independent production - assuming you have the ability to actually create a 4K finished version - is to enlist the services of one of the facilities that does DCP creation. This is not solely due to the technical requirements I've already listed, it's due to the fact that in order to ensure that the picture looks correct on a DCI compatible projection system, the picture must be screened in a DCI compatible screening room prior to doing any of this work, and color corrected to look the way it's supposed to. A DCI compatible screening room uses a different colorspace with a different whitepoint than the video formats you're likely working with, and it also uses 2.6 gamma, where video formats generally use closer to 2.2. Just copying a full length feature in 4K is going to take many hours. If you really want to go this route, I would suggest contacting either FotoKem, Laser Pacific, Technicolor, Modern Videofilm, Deluxe, or Ascent Media, among a few others, regarding delivery requirements, turnaround, and pricing.

[Anthony Gratl]

Wow, you guys are really accelerating time ;).

I wonder what Einstein would think of the RED toys.

Actually, he had this quote about the future

"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal"

I believe he was permanently scarred by his work on the Manhattan Project. It took Oppenheimer (MP leader) somewhat longer to get his quote, vis a vis his subsequent work on the hydrogen bomb (which Einstein refused to work on)
Oppenheimer quote
"I am become death. A destroyer of worlds."

Heavy stuff. Makes me reconsider the importance of the visual image and of this camera in making works of significance to the future of our world. OT I know, but everything is connected.
Peace

[Jannard]

Theaters use a digital cinema server, made by various manufacturers and almost always conforming to the current DCI specification (not a standard, but a specification). There are a number of systems available for creating digital cinema packages, the most commonly used are made by Doremi Labs, Dolby Labs, or Qube Cinema. Creating a DCP is not a do it yourself operation and is not meant to be. It involves specific formatting of the image files, color space conversion to X'Y'Z' (i.e., CIE XYZ colorspace encoded to 2.6 gamma), compression of the resulting files, creation of compliant sound track files in a very specific MXF wrapper format, creation and formatting of any subtitles or foreign language tracks, creation of very specifically formatted composition and playlist files, encryption of everything to specific encryption standards, creation of encryption keys, creation and delivery of "key delivery messages" that allow a specific server to play the decrypted files for a specific length of time, and some other things I won't even get into here. There are not only a lot of technical requirements, there is also a great deal of studio politics involved in terms of who creates the packages and, even more importantly, how the key delivery messages are managed. Regardless of what people here want to believe, this is not something you will do on your own at any time in the near future, even for non-studio work. The only real way to do a 4K screening of an independent production - assuming you have the ability to actually create a 4K finished version - is to enlist the services of one of the facilities that does DCP creation. This is not solely due to the technical requirements I've already listed, it's due to the fact that in order to ensure that the picture looks correct on a DCI compatible projection system, the picture must be screened in a DCI compatible screening room prior to doing any of this work, and color corrected to look the way it's supposed to. A DCI compatible screening room uses a different colorspace with a different whitepoint than the video formats you're likely working with, and it also uses 2.6 gamma, where video formats generally use closer to 2.2. Just copying a full length feature in 4K is going to take many hours. If you really want to go this route, I would suggest contacting either FotoKem, Laser Pacific, Technicolor, Modern Videofilm, Deluxe, or Ascent Media, among a few others, regarding delivery requirements, turnaround, and pricing.

These are certainly less obstacles than we had when we said we would make a 4K camera...

Jim

[Casey Green]

Theaters use a digital cinema server, made by various manufacturers and almost always conforming to the current DCI specification (not a standard, but a specification). There are a number of systems available for creating digital cinema packages, the most commonly used are made by Doremi Labs, Dolby Labs, or Qube Cinema. Creating a DCP is not a do it yourself operation and is not meant to be. It involves specific formatting of the image files, color space conversion to X'Y'Z' (i.e., CIE XYZ colorspace encoded to 2.6 gamma), compression of the resulting files, creation of compliant sound track files in a very specific MXF wrapper format, creation and formatting of any subtitles or foreign language tracks, creation of very specifically formatted composition and playlist files, encryption of everything to specific encryption standards, creation of encryption keys, creation and delivery of "key delivery messages" that allow a specific server to play the decrypted files for a specific length of time, and some other things I won't even get into here. There are not only a lot of technical requirements, there is also a great deal of studio politics involved in terms of who creates the packages and, even more importantly, how the key delivery messages are managed. Regardless of what people here want to believe, this is not something you will do on your own at any time in the near future, even for non-studio work. The only real way to do a 4K screening of an independent production - assuming you have the ability to actually create a 4K finished version - is to enlist the services of one of the facilities that does DCP creation. This is not solely due to the technical requirements I've already listed, it's due to the fact that in order to ensure that the picture looks correct on a DCI compatible projection system, the picture must be screened in a DCI compatible screening room prior to doing any of this work, and color corrected to look the way it's supposed to. A DCI compatible screening room uses a different colorspace with a different whitepoint than the video formats you're likely working with, and it also uses 2.6 gamma, where video formats generally use closer to 2.2. Just copying a full length feature in 4K is going to take many hours. If you really want to go this route, I would suggest contacting either FotoKem, Laser Pacific, Technicolor, Modern Videofilm, Deluxe, or Ascent Media, among a few others, regarding delivery requirements, turnaround, and pricing.

This sounds so complicated. Almost purposely and unnecessarily so. Sounds like a challenge, eh Jim?

[Jarred Land]

It is a pain in the ass.. but to be clear you do not need a DCP package to present 4k footage ( i dont want this thread to scare our customers to death )

At Red, we sometimes use a KG server that allows you to upload 4k DPX sequences ( that you can output of REDCINE, After Effects, etc ) with discreet audio channels.. these just "load in" and its a rather simple process.

Of course.. its not cheap ( the KG box is about $100k) but it can be rented and hooks directly up to 4k projectors.

Also.. there are people experimenting using Nvidea Quadro-PLex to play out 4k images directly through DVI from a desktop.

of course.. this all gets alot easier (and cheaper) soon....( heh heh heh )

[Jannard]

Don't worry... we have a simple and inexpensive solution.

Jim

[Casey Green]

"that's what I'm talkin' ABOUT!"

[Christian Edwards]

good cus i just got a quote for clipster ...ouch!

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Don't worry... we have a simple and inexpensive solution.

Jim

Just making cool shades must have bored him to death......

;-))

[Craig Ryan]

So we'll have our Blu-Ray and HD DVD players for films that were pipelined at 2k, and we'll have some sort of RED 4k media player for all those old 70mm epics and newer 4k pipelined films. Sounds good to me...its a shame some of the more recent epics of the digital age are pretty much limited to 2k. :angry02: I guess we'll have to either move the couch back or forward depending on the resolution lol.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Actually, he had this quote about the future

"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal"

I believe he was permanently scarred by his work on the Manhattan Project. It took Oppenheimer (MP leader) somewhat longer to get his quote, vis a vis his subsequent work on the hydrogen bomb (which Einstein refused to work on)
Oppenheimer quote
"I am become death. A destroyer of worlds."

Heavy stuff. Makes me reconsider the importance of the visual image and of this camera in making works of significance to the future of our world. OT I know, but everything is connected.
Peace

Yeah, when employees of Sony, Kodak and other behemoths start commiting collective harakiri, the guys at RED will probably think "My God, what have we done?!" :).

[Lachlan Ward]

WOOT SIMPLE WOOT INEXPENSIVE! Bring on the poor mans Cinema!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There's always Framecycler. :D

[Deanan]

DCI is way too narrow a spec with way too many hoops to jump through to create a proper DCDM. It also is not relevant to large scale home distribution or smaller scale distributions.

as the analogy goes:
RED ONE is to revolutionizing/enabling production as RED PLAY is to ... :)

[Casey Green]

RED PLAY you say? :)

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The Force brought me here... brought me to RED...

Thank you, Force. You are a very nice Force... the best Force I've ever met...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Just thinking out loud here but if RED controls the camera format AND the digital cinema server tech (and perhaps the display tech as well - rumored 4K projector) then creating an authoring environment just got a heck of a lot easier. Its the same basic idea as reverse engineering your project workflow - you start with what the post house prefers and build to suit on set.

IMHO the DCI rubric was always plagued by too many cooks with competing agendas and late stage tweaks powered through by self serving interests. The idea that a better mousetrap can be built, especially with a DRM free option, seems reasonable to me. Commodity microprocessor tech in modern architectures combined with more advanced codecs is reaching the tipping point for managing 4K images without the need for $100K pieces of hardware for editorial or playback.

The ritual stoning for suggesting anything but uncompressed is viable may begin at your leisure. :red_bandana:

Cineform is already showing some of the potential of a viable compressed professional grade codec. I also have to believe that there will be purpose built hardware to accelerate transcoding of RedCode RAW announced at NAB by somebody and delivered by Q4 2008. Also possible that Graeme can optimize the codec for a line of popular GPUs (ATI or nVidia), particularly if you have several working in parallel (the new MacPros offer BTO options for as many as 4 ATI 2600XTs for example).

I also expect that as the installed base of digital projectors increases the market volume will motivate someone to develop DCI authoring tools more integrated and user friendly than the current nightmare mmost describes and I would be shocked if the designers of such tools ignored RedCode as a source file type at this juncture.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Actually RED just indirectly re-announced another product.

The MIA REDCode RGB.... course REDCODE RGB is 12bit JP2k but it's at least going to be available for consistancy.

[Blue]

Prefer projectors over display..for me

Totally. Any day of the week...month...year. No one should have to watch a film on a pissy little 82" screen. A 4k 34" monitor for editing is fair enough but for viewing it has to be 3 metres minimum surely. Who doesn't agree with that? Focus has to be on 4k projection any thing else is elementary.

[M Most]

These are certainly less obstacles than we had when we said we would make a 4K camera...

Jim

Technically. But you know at least as well as I do that the problem is not just technical. It generally was with the camera, but it isn't with something like this.

[M Most]

DCI is way too narrow a spec with way too many hoops to jump through to create a proper DCDM. It also is not relevant to large scale home distribution or smaller scale distributions.


It is also created and supported by a group that controls virtually all of the theatrical distribution in this country and in many other places throughout the world. So what you say - even if it was true, which I don't personally agree is the case - really doesn't matter, because it isn't a technical, or even a financial, issue.

[Blue]

I really hope this resolution race is gonna stop at 4K or at least ~8K. I mean 4K is simply great... 2K is great... hell, even 720p is great :).

Im afraid it will only stop when we are down to 30ppi on a 60 foot screen. There's no-where left to go from there.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It is also created and supported by a group that controls virtually all of the theatrical distribution in this country and in many other places throughout the world. So what you say - even if it was true, which I don't personally agree is the case - really doesn't matter, because it isn't a technical, or even a financial, issue.

mmost -

You are one of few folks here that I believe sees and understands the big picture. I know exactly what you are talking about. I totally agree with MOST of your posts.

HOWEVER - unlike you, I believe we will see some HUGE changes very quickly - and yes, from the studio side. And yes, there will be political fall out - but FEAR is at an all time high in the world of distribution - and FEAR sometimes make people move faster.

[M Most]

Just thinking out loud here but if RED controls the camera format AND the digital cinema server tech (and perhaps the display tech as well - rumored 4K projector) then creating an authoring environment just got a heck of a lot easier.

You're assuming that either independent, self distributed projects are going to take over the theatrical market (very unlikely) or that studios and distributors are anxious for cheaper, more open distribution formats (which is not necessarily the case).



IMHO the DCI rubric was always plagued by too many cooks with competing agendas and late stage tweaks powered through by self serving interests. The idea that a better mousetrap can be built, especially with a DRM free option, seems reasonable to me.

You need to read the spec you're criticizing. Encryption is optional. You can make an encryption free DCP that will load and play on any compliant server. It isn't done very often because most venues that have digital cinema systems are usually showing theatrical releases. But it can be done, and has been done for festivals and other screening situations.


Commodity microprocessor tech in modern architectures combined with more advanced codecs is reaching the tipping point for managing 4K images without the need for $100K pieces of hardware for editorial or playback.

A digital cinema server doesn't cost $100K or anything even close to it. If you're talking about full multiplex automation systems, that's another story, but also another product.


The ritual stoning for suggesting anything but uncompressed is viable may begin at your leisure.

Nobody has ever said that, especially the DCI, which chose JPEG2000 for DCP distribution.


Cineform is already showing some of the potential of a viable compressed professional grade codec. I also have to believe that there will be purpose built hardware to accelerate transcoding of RedCode RAW announced at NAB by somebody and delivered by Q4 2008. Also possible that Graeme can optimize the codec for a line of popular GPUs (ATI or nVidia), particularly if you have several working in parallel (the new MacPros offer BTO options for as many as 4 ATI 2600XTs for example).

The use of JPEG2000 was due in part to its status as an open standard. Neither Cineform nor Redcode currently fall under that category. In fact, everything in the DCI spec is non-proprietary as the DCI member companies are very committed to that, and for good reasons.


I also expect that as the installed base of digital projectors increases the market volume will motivate someone to develop DCI authoring tools more integrated and user friendly than the current nightmare mmost describes and I would be shocked if the designers of such tools ignored RedCode as a source file type at this juncture.

You might want to give the folks at Qube Cinema a call regarding more integrated and user friendly tools. But one still has to know what one is doing. As far as Redcode, there is no way to write a redcode raw file from anything but the camera sensor. So once you start color correcting, you must render into something else - and Redcode currently doesn't exist - or at least isn't available - in any other form. So the source files for a distribution package would, at this point in time, never be Redcode unless you were only projecting dailies - in which case you wouldn't be using a distribution format in the first place. Distribution formats are for final deliverables, which might be compressed or uncompressed, depending on the format. But in no case would they be a camera format. Now, having said that, my guess is that Red did not spend lots of time, effort, and money developing their own compression scheme just to adopt an open standard for a new product. But my point is that getting studios and distributors to look at something proprietary at this point would be, to put it simply, challenging. No matter how cheap and/or "simple" it might be. I'm sure that Red will present their system to the studio consortium for consideration. How open they will be to it is the bigger question, because as I said, it's not necessarily about technology or cost.

Personally, I'd really like to see a feature complete, bug-free version of the Red One - and in volume - and a fully working, bug free version of Redcine with the promised pull list functionality before Red sets off to build these additional products. But that's their call, not ours.

[J.D. Frey]

You're assuming that either independent, self distributed projects are going to take over the theatrical market (very unlikely) or that studios and distributors are anxious for cheaper, more open distribution formats (which is not necessarily the case).


It's just a matter of time, technology and your definition of take over. It's happening with the music industry because of CDRs, inexpensive recording setups, MP3s and independent labels. Eventually I will have a 4k screen in my home and only venture out to a movie the same way I venture out to a Musical, or local play. as the barrier to entry drops content becomes more important.

Eventually when the next writer's strike happens most people won't notice. I'm currently spending my time catching up on T.V. that i haven't seen that is only a year old. Writer's strike? what Writer's strike...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I concede that mmost has a far greater understanding of the ins and outs of the DCI spec than my "Cliffs Notes" level. I did not realize that encryption was optional for DCI packages, good note.

I still maintain that the exhibitors would like cheaper servers even if other players have a vested interest in keeping the costs high.

All codecs I am familiar with, in their current implementations, would require transcoding in the pipeline to a J2K based DCP deliverable - no argument there. I am inferring from the teases out of RED that they are developing a RedCode based infrastructure that would run all the way through to the server. I should have been clearer in my post.

I heartily agree that getting the major players to adopt a proprietary standard seems unlikely. Will RED be willing to distribute RedCode in a way similar to QuickTime or as a QT component in order to sell hardware? Perhaps there will be a RedCode based solution that spits out J2K as the last step.

Finishing/deliverable creation does not have to be as clunky as it is today. I am talking about steps forward, not a magic bullet.

[M Most]

It's just a matter of time, technology and your definition of take over. It's happening with the music industry because of CDRs, inexpensive recording setups, MP3s and independent labels. Eventually I will have a 4k screen in my home and only venture out to a movie the same way I venture out to a Musical, or local play. as the barrier to entry drops content becomes more important.

Eventually when the next writer's strike happens most people won't notice. I'm currently spending my time catching up on T.V. that i haven't seen that is only a year old. Writer's strike? what Writer's strike...

So you see the demise of the motion picture industry in the future. Good luck trying to make a living making motion pictures without a motion picture industry. The music business is considerably different in the sense that although income from actual distribution of music has gone down - drastically - thanks to things like illegal downloads, most viable music acts today make their primary income from live performance - in other words, touring. Self distribution has, in general, yielded pennies to those who have tried it. How exactly do you do a live performance of a motion picture?

If I were you, I would be hoping that your scenario doesn't happen for a long, long time, unless you want a career in which you can't get any significant financial reward. Making motion pictures is not just fun and games. To those of us who have actually been doing it for some time, it's a lifelong career. And to keep it as a viable career, there has to be a support system that allows those doing it to make a fair living for their efforts. Without that, there is no career. Regardless of how good the content is.

[M Most]

I still maintain that the exhibitors would like cheaper servers even if other players have a vested interest in keeping the costs high.

The cost of the servers is not the financial issue. The cost of projectors and automation systems is. That's already being partially handled through clever financing schemes like virtual print fees to the projection system suppliers, but it's still a cost that isn't necessarily justified by the current level of revenues at many local theaters, which is one reason you haven't seen wholesale adoption of digital projection yet.


I heartily agree that getting the major players to adopt a proprietary standard seems unlikely. Will RED be willing to distribute RedCode in a way similar to QuickTime or as a QT component in order to sell hardware?

Quicktime is also proprietary, which is one reason its was not considered by the DCI (the nature of Quicktime files as wrapped movie files is another).



Finishing/deliverable creation does not have to be as clunky as it is today. I am talking about steps forward, not a magic bullet.

I understand what you're saying. But it's also true that it doesn't have to be a single user, desktop process either. Theatrical distribution - the only venue that really needs this type of deliverable - is not the primary means of distribution for many, if not most independent productions. When a service is not needed in volume, it doesn't get commoditized. Video deliverables - the primary distribution format for what we're probably talking about here - are already reasonably simple and relatively cheap. That doesn't mean everything else will or should be the same.

[Bob England]

Just making cool shades must have bored him to death......

;-))

JUST making cool shades?
Apparently you haven't spent much time exploring the Oakley.com website.
Making cool shades (and everything else that Oakley makes) is what prepared him to be successful with RED.
Back when RED was being called a scam, few seemed to realize he was exactly the right man for the job.

[I Bloom]

JUST making cool shades?
Apparently you haven't spent much time exploring the Oakley.com website.
Making cool shades (and everything else that Oakley makes) is what prepared him to be successful with RED.
Back when RED was being called a scam, few seemed to realize he was exactly the right man for the job.

Amen.



as the analogy goes:
RED ONE is to revolutionizing/enabling production as RED PLAY is to ... :)

Get it guys... PLAY, as in "No adult supervision." I need off this roller coaster.:sick:
When can I make a reservation.

IBloom

[Christian Edwards]

4K set top box?

this could be a reality http://www.cinegrid.org/ (http://www.cinegrid.org/)