Standard 16mm lenses

[Teague Kennedy]

Standard 16mm lenses will not cover 2k, apparently. But will they cover ENG b4 size for 1080p? And if not, can we shoot with a standard 16 for deliverables in 720p?

[Jarred Land]

yes they will :)

[Teague Kennedy]

Oh, my. They will cover 2k? or b4? either will be fantastic!

[Brook Willard]

B4, not 2K.

[tj williams]

So windowed is not a super 16mm size chip area? Does this mean that all my S16 lenses will show me a more tele image than they do in film? (ie smaller target = more telephoto appearance of the result)

[Brook Willard]

No, re-read the post.

Standard 16mm lenses will not cover the 2K area because the 2K area is for Super 16mm lenses.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

super 16 just not reg 16

[Billy Summers]

yeah s16, s17...whatever it takes...

[Damien Molineaux]

So, let me get this straight. I just had a look at the format options chart on red.com

You can record 1080p from either a 35mm, a S16 or B4 (16mm) sized frame. Wow, that's great. I hadn't realized 16mm lenses were an option. Opens up some more possibilities.

I just checked the size difference between 1080p (or i) and 2K. 1920 is 93.75% of 2048 (2K), multiply that by 11.1 (the width in mm of a S16 frame) you get 10.4, the width of a B4 frame, which I guess is the same as a 16mm frame, according to Red.

According to wikipedia
16mm camera aperture: 0.404 by 0.295 in (10.26 by 7.49 mm)
S166 camera aperture: 0.493 by 0.292 in (12.52 by 7.41 mm)

note that projection aperture is slightly smaller
16mm projector aperture (full 1.33): 0.378 by 0.276 in (9.60 by 7.01 mm)
S16 projector aperture (full 1.66): 0.463 by 0.279 in (11.76 by 7.08 mm)
S16 projector aperture (1.85): 0.463 by 0.251 in (11.76 by 6.37 mm)

So Red one is using a slightly smaller frame size than S16 specs, but a larger frame size than 16mm proejction specs.

On another note, there are a few disadvantages to shooting RGB verses RAW, one being the amount of footage you can record on a Red drive, the other being RGB isn't as flexible as RAW. Still good to know though.

Cheers,
Damien

[REDHKSC]

RED One can boost " Digit Primes " sales or rental deals but not for ViperCam, HDCAM or VariCam anymore.

More than 1300+ Red possible future owners will try them................and time will tell for the Film or D-cinema markets.

Cheers,

STEWART
Founder
REDHKSC
HKG - CHINA / Thailand

[tj williams]

Brook So: If you are shooting 2K raw with a windowed sensor the sensor is windowed one size. Which requires S16 lenses. If you are shooting output directly to RGB 1080 then the sensor is another size, which can be covered by standard 16mm lenses?

This then means again that if I shoot RGB Direct in a windowed sensor my lenses are covering a different area, and therefore show a different field of view than a windowed 2K?

I don't think this is correct. I believe that when you window the sensor it is always the same size whether you are shooting 2K or RGB1080 or RGB 720 Otherwise you could probably cover 720P with Super 8 lenses???(joke somewhat)

[tj williams]

Here is the quote I was thinking about:

Quoted from Stuart English's post in the, 'How many windows' thread . . .

"Two windowed sensor areas are currently allowed—
4K - Academy 25 mm
2K - Super 16 mm / B4 using adaptor
4.5K (not a window of course) - Super 35 mm

Note 1080p and 720p recordings are designed to have the same FOV, due to the design of the internal scaling engine. This means that 1080p, 1080i and 720p footage will all have the the same optical characteristics."

Which I take it to mean that Super16mm lenses are required. Now some regular 16mm lenses will cover S16 over part of the zoom range!

[Stuart English]

The key dimensions are 12.52 v's 10.26 which means S16mm is approximately 20% wider.

Now 2K is only about 6% wider than 1080p (2,048 v's 1,920)

So bottom line is regular 16mm lenses don't have enough coverage for 2K or 1080p.

[Teague Kennedy]

The key dimensions are 12.52 v's 10.26 which means S16mm is approximately 20% wider.

Now 2K is only about 6% wider than 1080p (2,048 v's 1,920)

So bottom line is regular 16mm lenses don't have enough coverage for 2K or 1080p.

That is assuming that s16 coverage is not more than the 2k window.

[Stuart English]

No, 1920 x 1080 RAW capture requires more than 10.26 mm coverage. So 16mm lenses are not quite wide enough.

[Teague Kennedy]

wow. this party just ended.

[Brook Willard]

Thanks for the clarification there, Stuart.

Brook So: If you are shooting 2K raw with a windowed sensor the sensor is windowed one size. Which requires S16 lenses. If you are shooting output directly to RGB 1080 then the sensor is another size, which can be covered by standard 16mm lenses?

This then means again that if I shoot RGB Direct in a windowed sensor my lenses are covering a different area, and therefore show a different field of view than a windowed 2K?

I don't think this is correct. I believe that when you window the sensor it is always the same size whether you are shooting 2K or RGB1080 or RGB 720 Otherwise you could probably cover 720P with Super 8 lenses???(joke somewhat)I see where you're going with this.

Standard 16mm is, of course, 4:3. I suppose one could shoot 2K RAW [@16:9] and crop the extra area [not rendered by the lens] in post [lose the 16:9 to go to 4:3].

I misinterpreted Jarred's post: I was under the impression that 1080p was possible within the 16mm sensor area. It seems that the 16mm area is just slightly smaller than the 1080p area, so I suppose there will be some cropping either way [either 2K or 1080p].

With all of this in mind, I'd shoot 2K RAW with 16mm and crop it in REDCINE. Yes, some of the captured 2K area will be black [outside of the lens's range], but you'll still be getting RAW data at the highest possible resolution for your 16mm area.

As for windowing, it all varies. With the 1080p resolution as a guideline, there are many different "windows" you could choose. Some will involve scaling [S35mm sensor area scaled to 1080p, for example] and some would not [native 1080p recording, a "1:1" window]. Obviously the FOV would vary.

[chuck colburn]

Not all lenses that are/were sold for a given format have the same circle of coverage. Just because a lens was sold for standard 16mm format does not automatically mean that it does not cover Super 16. If I remember right the Angenieux 10x15 does cover S16. The only ways to be sure are to either put the lens on the camera or mount it on a through the lens projector with a reticle that out lines the various formats. On most imaging optical designs, the circle of coverage increases at smaller stops. Therefore if you have some light fall off wide open but are able to live with it, it will improve as you stop down the lens. This is especially true at shorter focal lengths be it a prime or zoom lens.

[Teague Kennedy]

How small does a pin-hole have to be for HD work?

[jbeale]

I don't think there are any lenses that have an instantaneous, 100% falloff immediately outside the design image frame- it's just a question of how much vignetting, defocus and various optical aberrations you are willing to live with in the edges and corners of the frame. I have not shot with regular 16mm lenses but I would suspect most of them already have some falloff at the corners, at least measurable if not very visible... it's just a question of degree.

[Harry Clark]

jbeale is right.
Consider that 16mm lenses were designed for a 4x3 format, and that they most likely just cover that "square" with their circular projection.
But the Mysterium is a 16x9 sensor, and so the corners are within the 4x3 frame (normal 16 is 10.3x7.5mm right?)
So whatever falloff happens, it probably happens REALLY close to the corners of the Mysterium. I bet depending on the vintage and make of the lens that some will work with the B4 window.
Certainly, at some point in the zoom range, they will cover.
I have a nice vintage 9-50 that covered Super-16 on my SR3 from about 11mm on. Just as sharp as my more "modern" Canon 7-63, and handled flare better!
Has anyone at Team Red tried a 9-50 Cooke or a 10-100 Zeiss, just for fun?
Cheers,
Harry

[chuck colburn]

The Zeiss 10x10 is commonly sold as covering S-16 (best to check a given one on a lens projector) and quite often comes in Arri S/B mount. A S/B lens mount can be fitted to a PL camera front with an intermediate adapter. This is probally the most secure "go between" adapters due to the locking action of the S/B mount.

[Harry Clark]

Yeah, I have a Mark III 10-100 as well. Bayo to PL adapter. Doesn't really cover Super until about 16mm. But might be OK with B4. Plus it's faster (T.2) than most super 16 zooms... I've certainly used it lots with the SR3.
Cheers,
Harry

[tj williams]

stuart: I would like a clarification here concerning window size of the sensor!!!!

Super 16mm exposed area is 12.35 by 7.5 mm The Abakus adapter for B4 lenses converts the lens to cover this dimension for super 16mm use with Pl mount.
I had concluded that the RED windowed sensor was recording a target this size(12.35 by 7.5 mm) regardless of whether the image being recorded was 2K or 1080P or 720P.

Is that true?????

[Zakaree Sandberg]

im not going to do this.. because im sure it would cost alot more in comparison to just buying supers.. but they can convert 16mm lenses to super 16 cant they?

[chuck colburn]

35mm cine lenses to S16 yes, (seeCooke web site)
Regular to S16, not that I've seen.
Could be wrong though!

One could enlarge the circle of coverage of a standard 16 lens with a extender group, but then you would change the focal length by the multiplication factor (more or less) of the extender.

[Martin Drew]

Optex used to do conversions from 16 to s16, the focal length would end up multiplied by 1.2 so the Cooke 9-50 would become a 10.8-62.

M

[tj williams]

HI Chuck/Martin If you put a regular 16m lens on a super 16mm camera then the longer part of the zoom will cover super 16mm say a 12 to 120 Ang which covers from about 22mm on out. Now if you convert the same lens with the multiplication factor involved you are almost back where you started.... Worthwhile on later Zeiss 10 to 100 or other nice glass otherwise probably not.

stuart: I would still like a clarification here concerning window size of the sensor!!!! Here is what I think is the below TRUE?????

Super 16mm exposed area is 12.35 by 7.5 mm The Abakus adapter for B4 lenses converts the lens to cover this dimension for super 16mm use with Pl mount.

I had concluded that the RED windowed sensor was recording a target this size(12.35 by 7.5 mm) regardless of whether the image being recorded was 2K or 1080P or 720P

Is this TRUE?????

[Rob Lohman]

http://red.com/formatoptions.htm lists mm's. Don't know how accurate that is.

I do know everyone is extremely busy. So let's give Stuart some time to respond, please. Thanks.

[Martin Drew]

HI Chuck/Martin If you put a regular 16m lens on a super 16mm camera then the longer part of the zoom will cover super 16mm say a 12 to 120 Ang which covers from about 22mm on out. Now if you convert the same lens with the multiplication factor involved you are almost back where you started.... Worthwhile on later Zeiss 10 to 100 or other nice glass otherwise probably not.

With that lens you would gain a few mm at the long end and your s16 coverage would start from 14.4mm rather than 22mm, that is significantly wider.... Whether it is worth doing would be very much down to the individual. Moot point though because Optex are no more!

M

[donatello b]

"gain a few mm at the long end and your s16 coverage would start from 14.4mm rather than 22mm"

it all comes down to focal mm, f stop & focus ... i see on most S16 mm lens list they have the 12-120 ANG focus at infinity (wide open) covering S16 15-120mm but focus at 5 ft and it is now 40-120