View Full Version : Windows NLE Systems
We still need to hear what RedCine's minimum system requirements will be, but in the meantime I'm trying to wrap my head around working with HD codecs in a Windows NLE.
Obviously, there is a lot of competing technology, such as many different "HD" codecs, which all muddy the water considerably. I've been working in DV on Avid Xpress Pro for about a year, and I'm now very familiar with it. But I wonder how Avid Xpress compares with products like Premiere Pro 2.0 when editing and finishing at 1080p. If I can stick with Avid Xpress, I would like to. But it seems that Adobe is getting very competitive with the HD features of Premiere. Love to hear about the pros and cons of Avid Xpress or Premiere dealing with RedCine's down-sampled 1080p from where we're sitting now. Y'all know more than I do!
Gavin Greenwalt
02-26-2007, 02:35 PM
Avid strengths: Hella Fast real-time.
Premiere strengths: Unusual file formats.
Avid weaknesses: Picky hardware.
Premiere weaknesses: Sitting around waiting for renders to complete.
Cail Young
02-27-2007, 12:00 AM
Premiere weaknesses: Sitting around waiting for renders to complete.
Also, and I have no idea if this is still the case, but Pro 1.0 would sit there and conform all DV audio to 32-bit because that's what the timeline works at... Then if you moved the project it would forget it had done this and do it again.
I wonder if Premiere will make for an easier RedCine workflow than Avid Xpress. For one thing, with Premiere you can probably stay in a codec exported directly from RedCine, whereas Avid would have to "transcode" that codec to its own DNxHD codec--that might be a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure.
Nick Shaw
02-27-2007, 08:11 AM
…with Premiere you can probably stay in a codec exported directly from RedCine, whereas Avid would have to "transcode" that codec to its own DNxHD codec--that might be a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure.
With Avid you can also stay in a codec exported from REDCINE, so long as you use one of the Avid supported codecs, such as DNxHD or DV. However, although Avid does not have to 'transcode' Quicktimes on import, it still has to convert them to OMF media files to work with them. This is 're-packaging' them from a Quicktime wrapper to an OMF wrapper, and has no re-compression loss. It is much quicker than re-compression, but still involves making new copies of the media on the Avid's media drive, so takes an amount of time comparable to a straight copy of the files.
With Avid you can also stay in a codec exported from REDCINE, so long as you use one of the Avid supported codecs, such as DNxHD or DV.
Hm, wait a moment. RedCine does not export DNxHD. You can't get a DNxHD out of RedCine (not yet). And so Avid does NOT stay in the codec exported from RedCine. RedCine can give us DVCPro or HD uncompressed, for example, which is then converted to DNxHD by Avid. Maybe the HD uncompressed converted to Avid DNxHD is "lossless"--I don't know. But there is still some change in codec between RedCine and Avid.
Nick Shaw
02-27-2007, 09:17 AM
REDCINE can export to any Quicktime codec installed on your system. Avid DNxHD (along with all the other Avid codecs) is available as a Quicktime codec for Mac and PC as a free download from Avid. [LINK (http://www.avid.com/onlineSupport/supportcontent.asp?productID=0&contentID=7952)]
Ah, okay so this is something I'm not familiar with at all. Are you saying that if Avid Xpress is on my system, I already have a DNxHD codec installed on my system, and RedCine will be able to therefore tap into that codec and export an appropriate QT file using that codec?
Gavin Greenwalt
02-27-2007, 12:26 PM
correct.
Okay thanks. Again, I didn't know that. HD is new to me. Well, there will be a lot of Avid (and FCP and Premiere) workflow threads in the months to come. But to return to my original post, given that DNxHD is supposedly a high quality HD codec, and RedCine will be able to export in this codec, is there any advantage to Premiere then? I was under the impression that Premiere was less proprietary in the codecs it allowed for. But it sounds like Avid Xpress will be just as easy to work with RedCine.
Jeff Kilgroe
02-27-2007, 02:34 PM
Premiere does have advantages... Lower setup costs in many situations, direct integration with other Adobe software like AE and Encore. It's not a bad editor at all. IMO, I'd choose Premiere Pro over AVID Liquid or some of the entry-level Xpress offerings. Avid Xpress gave me some real issues about a year ago with the HVX200 and was one of the key factors I shifted to FCP. So I'm a bit biased, but I know that Avid still hasn't solved all the P2/MXF issues.
And it sounds like the transcoding that Avid has to do to convert QT files to DNxHD might not be as friendly in terms of time and quality as Premiere. Something to look into for sure.
Gavin Greenwalt
02-28-2007, 05:02 PM
You wouldn't go RED->QT->DNxHD
you would just convert straight from RED -> DNxHD
One advantage of premiere is that it's resolution independentish. Part of the reason it's so buggingly slow. So you can actually edit 4k footage if you're so inclined. Personally I'm not.
Gopher77
02-28-2007, 06:32 PM
What would be killer if Adobe put some of photoshop tools in premiere, like color correction. It would be really handy to have some frame by frame tools like a clone stamp or healing brush so you could fix single frame or few frame problems.
Barend Onneweer
03-01-2007, 03:44 AM
It would be really handy to have some frame by frame tools like a clone stamp or healing brush so you could fix single frame or few frame problems.
Uhm... that's what After Effects does. But integration between AE and Premiere Pro is pretty tight.
Phil Becque
03-01-2007, 07:04 AM
Hi Folks,
I doubt that you have heard about the EDIUS PRO 4 NLE editing system but if you are Windows based this should at least be looked at IMO. I've owned EDIUS software for over 3 years now and it has a lot of real time features that you normally only find on high end AVID systems but it's MUCH cheaper. Take a look:
http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIUSPro/newfeatures.php
It also comes with a very effective HD 'HQ' codec which makes everything work in real time e.g. CC, filters, PIP, cropping, scaling, etc etc
I'm not an expert in all the other NLE systems but I'll probably stick with EDIUS for my initial HD projects and see when it runs out of steam. I'm certainly going to visit their stand at NAB.
All the best, Phil
damonbots
03-01-2007, 10:31 AM
There are still some Edius diehards hanging on out there. I haven't thrown in the towel quite yet. 3rd party support has crippled Canopus from the beginning, but I just can't seem to part with my Edius. It's came a long way in a short period of time.
Phil Becque
03-01-2007, 01:27 PM
There are still some Edius diehards hanging on out there. I haven't thrown in the towel quite yet. 3rd party support has crippled Canopus from the beginning, but I just can't seem to part with my Edius. It's came a long way in a short period of time.
Well I'm not sure what 3rd party support you need that you don't have? There are very few realtime editors that allow 6 filters/CC/PIP/Wipes per track for a few hundred $$'s. Sorry I'm preaching to the converted aren't I??
I've done five ~80min projects in it and while I feel I might have to move to FCP for a 4K flow, if it was just 1080 I'd stick with Edius. I might even go with some sort of hybrid flow??? I guess I'll find out at NAB.
All the best, Phil
You wouldn't go RED->QT->DNxHD
you would just convert straight from RED -> DNxHD
One advantage of premiere is that it's resolution independentish. Part of the reason it's so buggingly slow. So you can actually edit 4k footage if you're so inclined. Personally I'm not.
There seems to be some back and forth on this. From what I can gather, you're not quite correct. RedCine doesn't export DNxHD codec. It exports various QT codecs (not including DNxHD), and Avid would transcode this to DNxHD. Mr. Rob Lohman of Red has himself stated that Avid will require "transcoding" (at least at this point in time) and that such transcoding does have an impact on time and quality.
Gavin Greenwalt
03-01-2007, 01:57 PM
I don't think it'll need to transcode. Just package. Which doesn't change the data, just encapsulate it in an OMF file. Do you have a link to Rob's post?
Nick Shaw
03-01-2007, 04:32 PM
There seems to be some back and forth on this. From what I can gather, you're not quite correct. RedCine doesn't export DNxHD codec. It exports various QT codecs (not including DNxHD), and Avid would transcode this to DNxHD. Mr. Rob Lohman of Red has himself stated that Avid will require "transcoding" (at least at this point in time) and that such transcoding does have an impact on time and quality.
REDCINE DOES export to the DNxHD codec, if it is installed on your system. It just, as Gavin said, packages that codec in a Quicktime wrapper which Avid needs to re-package as OMF. This is NOT a transcoding process.
When Rob was talking about transcoding he meant (correct me if I'm wrong Rob) that Avid would need to transcode REDCODE (RAW or RGB) files if you imported them directly without going through REDCINE first.
Either way there is only one transcode necessary, done either by REDCINE or Avid, but not both.
damonbots
03-01-2007, 05:19 PM
I've done five ~80min projects in it and while I feel I might have to move to FCP for a 4K flow, if it was just 1080 I'd stick with Edius. I might even go with some sort of hybrid flow??? I guess I'll find out at NAB.
All the best, Phil
Phil,
I'm hoping for some sort of hybrid workflow too. I see no reason why you couldn't offline 1080P in Edius. Canopus (GV) has always been innovative and I'm sure they are fully aware of the RED camera. I don't imagine they want to lose people like you and me to FCP. Anyway, I certainly don't expect to edit 4K right off the bat. Although, the ability to do so with REDCODE and REDCINE wouldn't shock me. These guys are working miracles at RED. NAB should bring some nifty suprises. Take care.
Rob Lohman
03-02-2007, 03:05 AM
Nick: yes, that's what I meant!
Thanks Nick and Rob for clearing that up. Only one tranascoding--that's a good thing!
Phil Becque
03-02-2007, 02:27 PM
Phil,
I'm hoping for some sort of hybrid workflow too. I see no reason why you couldn't offline 1080P in Edius. Canopus (GV) has always been innovative and I'm sure they are fully aware of the RED camera. I don't imagine they want to lose people like you and me to FCP. Anyway, I certainly don't expect to edit 4K right off the bat. Although, the ability to do so with REDCODE and REDCINE wouldn't shock me. These guys are working miracles at RED. NAB should bring some nifty suprises. Take care.
Well the other thing that one of the RED team mentioned a while back when I brought up the subject of Edius; was that REDCINE would output to the Edius HQ codec format if I had that installed on my system - which I do of course. That's if I understood what was being said correctly? I may not - I don't see how REDCINE can 'know' what codecs I have installed much less what the spec is - unless it's all contained in a DLL or something like that???
Does anyone have a better insight into how this works than me on this topic??
Thanks a lot, Phil
Nick Shaw
03-02-2007, 02:52 PM
I assume REDCINE just outputs using Quicktime. Quicktime handles the encoding to any codec installed on your system, and the list of available codecs is in the Quicktime compression dialog. So REDCINE doesn't need to 'know' what codecs you have.
It's just the same way you can render to any installed codec in eg After Effects.
Mike Harrington
03-02-2007, 04:41 PM
I don't know if you guys are aware of speed edit
http://www.newtek.com/speededit/features.php
same guys that make the video toaster
a little different but very powerful and fast
handles resolutions up to 2880x1920...no transcoding AVI or quicktime
Rob Lohman
03-03-2007, 05:20 AM
It needs to be a QuickTime codec for REDCINE to see it and work with it.
Phil Becque
03-04-2007, 07:51 AM
I assume REDCINE just outputs using Quicktime. Quicktime handles the encoding to any codec installed on your system, and the list of available codecs is in the Quicktime compression dialog. So REDCINE doesn't need to 'know' what codecs you have.
It's just the same way you can render to any installed codec in eg After Effects.
Thanks Nick - that's clear now. I haven't used QuickTime much so I'm not familiar with it's capabilities. What version of QT are we talking about specifically here ??
Thanks, Phil
Michael Schrengohst
03-04-2007, 08:00 AM
Could I use AE for windows and REDCINE?
I imagine most of out initial work will be
short EFX - shot on RED and then output
as some flavor of HD file from AE.
Phil Becque
03-04-2007, 10:41 AM
Could I use AE for windows and REDCINE?
I imagine most of out initial work will be
short EFX - shot on RED and then output
as some flavor of HD file from AE.
I read somewhere on the forum that REDCINE could output a sequnce of .TIFF files which you could load into AE and then output a movie file of some sort from AE.
I just started AE to see if it picked up the Edius HQ codec as an output option. Sadly it didn't do this so I'm not sure how you would set the HD output option up?? Having said that I probably haven't set up AE correctly. I'll let you know if I crack that one.
All the best, Phil
Barend Onneweer
03-04-2007, 10:47 AM
Could I use AE for windows and REDCINE? I imagine most of out initial work will be short EFX - shot on RED and then output as some flavor of HD file from AE.
From what I understand, Redcode Raw should load into any app that supports Quicktime at that resolution, assuming the codec has been installed.
So you'd probably be able to load Redcode Raw files directly into AE.
Rob Lohman
03-04-2007, 10:55 AM
Yes, you should be able to load REDCODE RAW in AE. However, most people seem to like image sequences in post with effects and so on. REDCINE exports to DPX, Cineon, Tiff, JPEG, OpenEXR & Targa image sequences.
So even if for whatever treason the QuickTime codec path is not an option you can always export still image sequences (both cropped and/or resampled to lower resolutions if you want) and load that in your post apps.
Phil Becque
03-04-2007, 11:49 AM
I read somewhere on the forum that REDCINE could output a sequnce of .TIFF files which you could load into AE and then output a movie file of some sort from AE.
I just started AE to see if it picked up the Edius HQ codec as an output option. Sadly it didn't do this so I'm not sure how you would set the HD output option up?? Having said that I probably haven't set up AE correctly. I'll let you know if I crack that one.
All the best, Phil
Hi RedGuy,
Well I cracked it - after RTFM :umm:
As I know I'll forget all this I've saved it a WEB page for later, enjoy:
http://philbecque.googlepages.com/aehdoutputhelp
All the best, Phil
wlaroussi
03-06-2007, 03:52 AM
Hi ,
In HD resolutions Canopus edius is the best affordable solution (no need for extra codecs or hardwares) . But if you want to upgrade to 2K or use AE 7 for decent effects then adobe production suite with cineform prospect is the choice (10 bits 2K editing and effects without rendering). Both cineform codec and canopus HQ codec are interactive and variable (AVID and FCP codecs are not) . The more bits you add (8 , 10 log , 12) the more bucks you spend , the same is for the resolutions (HDV , HD , 2K , 4 K) . Is possible to do the cuts on avid Xpress or composer , save as quick time reference then do effects on AE7 without rendering . If you don't have many cuts and NLE tasks on you shots then AE7 with a robust hardware station can handle the 2K resolution with great results using any codec type .
Regards .