How will workflow go from Red to Avid HD?

[TellStories]

Will this talk Avid? How will the workflow go? Will it go to some sort of HD intermediate formate to be used with Avid? I'm ready to sell the farm here, I just only edit in Avid.

Rob
dir. Squeeze (Miramax)
dir. Body Count (Polygram)
dir. Turntable (Vivendi Visual Ent.)

[Jim Exton]

After processing the Raw footage, you will be able to export using whatever codec you have installed on your computer.

So yes, you can use Avids HD codec.

[Stuart English]

Until such time as NLE systems are able to read REDCODE directly (and we do understand that this is the ideal scenario, but we also understand history tells us that there has always been a lag between developing a new codec and getting the NLE industry to adopt it) re-coding is the best path to NLE compatibility.

i.e REDCINE reads the REDCODE codec footage, and re-encodes it to a codec format that your NLE does support. That could be M-JPEG (pretty much universal support) DVCPRO HD or uncompressed HD (wide spread support) or DPX / TIFF or other more specialized codecs. As long as the codec is available to be used (not restricted by a license) then REDCINE is in position to exploit that codec.

[TellStories]

What do yo mean by processing the footage? Is that what the RedCine does or is that simply a telecine product? When downloading the Raid into the NLE is that the processing?

My friend Bill Warner (Avid Inventor) and I are sitting here dying to know.

Rob

[Poi Boy]

name droper. (kidding)
-A

[david farland]

Stuart,
Will Redcine be able to output high bandwidth DNxHD files as though they were output from an Avid Adrenline HD box, and then have these DNxHD files edited natively in one of Avid's NLEs?

I'm hoping Bill made such a 'open' system that we can.

DF

[Stuart English]

I need to add this comment - I was answering Tell Stories question .. posts got out of sync

" What do yo mean by processing the footage? Is that what the RedCine does or is that simply a telecine product? When downloading the Raid into the NLE is that the processing?"

Yes,

Go here ... http://red.com/workflow.htm

Any questions, post here...

[david farland]

Thanks Stuart, I presume you mean 10bit 4:2:2 option.

I like the Avid system and its layout & stability blah blah.

I see DNxHN goes up to 10bit 250Mb/sec but that is probably a little less quality (sorry Bill) than RedCode's maximum output quality.
Thou I expect I can ‘work’ Avid DNxHD files quite a bit without them breaking up and would only have to do one extra codec migration (Redcode to DNxHD) at the onset.
Can I conform my Redcode master files to my Avid offline DNxHD files?
What Avid effects i.e dissolves, cc, etc will be carried over when I do conform?
DF

[Stuart English]

David. To clarify, REDCINE isn't a conform tool. Its a pre-editorial and pre-conform tool.

You process video from RAW to RGB space performing the equivalent of a one-light color correction. You may then scale and encode the files to whatever codec is available to you for off-line use. (I can't comment about any specific NLE's codec availability outside this general comment)

Once the off-line is performed, a PULL LIST is generated, which REDCINE uses to re-scale and re-export the footage in the required finishing quality. That might be 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed or 4K DPX for a DI to 35mm film for example.

[david farland]

Thanks very much...appreciated
DF

[readyandaction]

name droper. (kidding)
-A

that was funny! :)

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As an err.. 'avid' user of the Avid editing software anything Bill wants to do to enable Red compatibility would be welcome by me.

Maybe call some friends work out a partnership... I'm sure RED would be more than happy to work with NLE providers to even further extend interoperability.

In the mean time it'll be offline 720p DVCPRO HD in Avid with an online conform in combustion or smoke for me.

[Rob Lohman]

Until such time as NLE systems are able to read REDCODE directly (and we do understand that this is the ideal scenario, but we also understand history tells us that there has always been a lag between developing a new codec and getting the NLE industry to adopt it) re-coding is the best path to NLE compatibility.

i.e REDCINE reads the REDCODE codec footage, and re-encodes it to a codec format that your NLE does support. That could be M-JPEG (pretty much universal support) DVCPRO HD or uncompressed HD (wide spread support) or DPX / TIFF or other more specialized codecs. As long as the codec is available to be used (not restricted by a license) then REDCINE is in position to exploit that codec.

Just to clarify a bit. If your NLE can load QuickTime files it should be able to take in REDCODE natively. Obviously this will not be a first class integration so might not be real time and such, but it should work. Some NLE's (like Avid) will want to transcode if you do this though.

Secondly REDCINE will output to most QuickTime codecs besides the support for image sequences.

[Chris Gearhart]

name droper. (kidding)
-A

Mumbler.

[Sean]

Some NLE's (like Avid) will want to transcode if you do this though.


What's the downside to this transcoding step in Avid? Another compression step and resultant quality loss?

[Mike Devlin]

Just to clarify a bit. If your NLE can load QuickTime files it should be able to take in REDCODE natively. Obviously this will not be a first class integration so might not be real time and such, but it should work. Some NLE's (like Avid) will want to transcode if you do this though.

Secondly REDCINE will output to most QuickTime codecs besides the support for image sequences.


The ideal solution for off line with Avid Media Composer would be to have direct generation of DNxHD from REDCINE. Hopefully sometime soon Avid and RED can collaborate on that, although I realize the RED team may be too busy for that right now. HDxHD is open source (or community source) and I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that the license is not restrictive.

For online (Avid DS Nitris) DPX files will work fine.

[Joe Carney]

Just to clarify a bit. If your NLE can load QuickTime files it should be able to take in REDCODE natively. Obviously this will not be a first class integration so might not be real time and such, but it should work. Some NLE's (like Avid) will want to transcode if you do this though.

Secondly REDCINE will output to most QuickTime codecs besides the support for image sequences.

Rob, will RedCode be available using the DirectShow interface on Windows? Whether in QT or DS, will it be a lossless codec?

Joe C.

[Rob Lohman]

What's the downside to this transcoding step in Avid? Another compression step and resultant quality loss?

Time, space and probably quality indeed. Obviously we are looking at a lot of options, but there's only so much we can do in a day ;)

More workflow updates during NAB!

[Lucas Wilson]

...although I realize the RED team may be too busy for that right now. HDxHD is open source (or community source) and I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that the license is not restrictive.

For online (Avid DS Nitris) DPX files will work fine.

Hi Mike...

The license is very restrictive. Take a look at it yourself... it's publicly available on the Avid website. A corporate entity that wants to use the DNxHD codec must work with Avid corporate to "do a deal." The public license only covers individual users.

Lucas
------
Reader of the Fine Print
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Jeremy Torrie]

I believe the key here is determining what resolution people want to edit at, and that's been discussed in other forums. It's like having your film transferred to whatever tape format to ingest with burn ins -DVCam, Digi Beta, Beta SP or HDCam...from there you determine what is acceptable to you as a resolution format to work in. I would think something as simple as Xpress Pro would be sufficient to work in -at least to edit and maintain the info you need for your online.

The import function with Avid seems to be the only real way at this point to bring media into the system. We've abandoned the physical asset of a tape in this workflow...unless of course you can afford to archive to HD SR or D5.

From my POV, I have 3 Avid's with the highest level being MC Adrenaline with the HD board. So it has an output limitation...sure it can handle HD resolution but not an on line level. So my question is, we use either FCP or Avid to lock picture, then where will we go, and what will be the most cost effective way to do color timing? I see Luki is repping Scratch, so perhaps there is one answer. Perhaps with most FCP users there may be word about Final Touch being integrated...hard to say but what I do know is that I will need a new system that is both affordable and can handle at the very least 2K output. So far an FCP system with Aja or Blackmagic appears to be the answer. Anyone else?

[Mike Devlin]

Hi Mike...

The license is very restrictive. Take a look at it yourself... it's publicly available on the Avid website. A corporate entity that wants to use the DNxHD codec must work with Avid corporate to "do a deal." The public license only covers individual users.

Lucas
------
Reader of the Fine Print
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles


Hi Lucas,

I did not read the fine print (which is not all the fine, as you point out). Several posts by the moderator on one of the Avid forums lead me to believe that Avid and Red were already working together on this, but that does not imply any particular solution. As a user of Avid Media Composer for off line it seems very clear that the best solution (image quality, ease of use, storage space, etc) would be if REDCINE could output DNxHD. I am sure RED and Avid know that. I don't expect that to be available on day one, but our first RED camera is #612 so I am hoping that is available by then, but I am a known optimist.

[GlennChan]

What about integration with some sort of virtual/data VTR or a DDR system? If you could have a device/system that converts Red footage to HD-SDI + SD SDI, you'd instantly be able to slide into existing workflows. If you can send the footage over SDI, any Avid will be able to ingest that (and add compression if need be). For online, being able to send material over SDI would make things fairly easy.

[Mike Devlin]

What about integration with some sort of virtual/data VTR or a DDR system? If you could have a device/system that converts Red footage to HD-SDI + SD SDI, you'd instantly be able to slide into existing workflows. If you can send the footage over SDI, any Avid will be able to ingest that (and add compression if need be). For online, being able to send material over SDI would make things fairly easy.

I believe you are correct Glenn. Stuart has previously indicated that REDCINE can output uncompressed HD 4:2:2. The RED website workflow page says the same thing. What is unclear to me, since this is not a file type but rather a video stream, is how this happens. REDCINE => AJA => Media Composer Adrenaline? If REDCINE can generate HD SDI 4:2:2 with some hardware configuration then of course integration with Avid is fairly easy and follows the traditional Tape-type workflow where we now ingest from REDCINE instead of a deck. However, it would still be much nicer to get DNxHD directly from REDCINE in an IT type workflow and aviod ingesting a video stream. I am confident that RED and Avid will work this out over the next year.

[Lucas Wilson]

... From my POV, I have 3 Avid's with the highest level being MC Adrenaline with the HD board. So it has an output limitation...sure it can handle HD resolution but not an on line level. So my question is, we use either FCP or Avid to lock picture, then where will we go, and what will be the most cost effective way to do color timing? I see Luki is repping Scratch, so perhaps there is one answer. Perhaps with most FCP users there may be word about Final Touch being integrated...hard to say but what I do know is that I will need a new system that is both affordable and can handle at the very least 2K output. So far an FCP system with Aja or Blackmagic appears to be the answer. Anyone else?

Torrie - I can't speak for Apple, but SCRATCH will natively support REDCODE RAW.

So one option for online and color timing would be to go from your offline system of choice to SCRATCH - which will be able to access the REDCODE RAW files and grade from there. SCRATCH can also output to any SMPTE format in realtime with burnin, pan/scan and a grade, so you can go from REDCODE RAW to NTSC/PAL with burn-in for editorial dailies, or output to HD-SDI or HD-RGB for a "final" online format, if that's your choice.

Lucas Wilson
-------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Jeremy Torrie]

Thanks Luki -knowledge is power, and finding out these bits of info help the process particularly in workflow.

[Sean]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

[GlennChan]

I believe you are correct Glenn. Stuart has previously indicated that REDCINE can output uncompressed HD 4:2:2. The RED website workflow page says the same thing.

I could definitely be wrong here, but I think Redcode might only be doing 4:4:4 RGB. The rationale for this is that 4:2:2 Y'CbCr chroma subsampling damages the picture (which is true; not visually lossless on small text). 4:4:4 is definitely the way to go for nice keying and good quality. 4k RAW is likely even better for keying, although for workflow reasons (i.e. TV shows shot completely greenscreen; lots of kids shows do this) it might be desirable to do dual link HD for ingest (less pixels = faster render, dual link HD works with most systems).

On the other hand, it may be unlikely that 4:4:4 quality is maintained. Distribution will likely stay 4:2:2 or lower for a while. As a counterpoint, having 4:4:4 is not bad as long as its overhead isn't too much (i.e. real-time conversion to 4:2:2, about the same compression efficiency).

2- I might be wrong here again, but I don't believe Redcine will support hardware SDI out??? (and deck control, etc. etc.)

3- For ingest into a Symphony (or Nitris), SDI ingest would let you skip/avoid DNxHD compression. What's not ideal about DNxHD is that it does 4:2:2 poorly (lots of aliasing) and it applies DCT compression (which adds noise).

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

Ummm have you upgraded to Xpress Pro 5.2? I'm relatively certain it supports importing 1080 24p DNxHD.

[Mike Devlin]

Given that many Red users are indie filmmakers, and therefore won't have Avid Symphony systems in their house, I was disappointed to discover that Avid Xpress can't import 1080p/24p HD (unless first ingested by another "higher end" Avid system like Avid Media Composer Adrenaline). I so want to stick with Avid, but they really just don't make it easy for us do they.

I am not sure about Avid Xpress, but you certainly don't need to go up to Symphony to get 1080P/24. Avid Media Composer is very inexpensive these days (list $4K and you can do much better) and it has an enormous amount of power, especially since they moved 16 bit SpectraMatte and motion tracking (including stabilization and smoothing) and many other features from Symphony down into Media Composer (including some of the grading features).

[Sean]

I was basing my statement on Avid's tech specs on their website (http://www.avid.com/products/xpresspro/featurelist.html):

"Here are just some of the features added to the Mac version of Avid Xpress Pro 5.6.

* Avid DNxHD encoding and editing
* Native HDV: 1080i/59.94, 1080i/50, 720p/29.97
* Native DVCPRO HD: 1080i/59.94, 1080i/50, 720p/60, 720p/24
* Panasonic P2 support
* 720p/23.976 and 1080p/24 HD project types. (Footage of these formats may be captured in other Avid systems such as Avid Media Composer Adrenaline and edited in Avid Xpress Pro.)"

Now, maybe that 1080p/24 HD limitation is only applicable to the Mac version? It's not clear from the website.

As for Media Composer at around $4K...seems a lot pricier than FCP. Hey, I'm an Avid guy. I do not want to switch over...if I don't have to.

EDIT: and the tech specs do say the limitation is in "capturing footage." In a non-tape file-based workflow, perhaps that's not an issue either.