Muroshi's scarlet design thread [Archive]

Aiden Cornwell

01-11-2008, 01:15 PM

casio just announced a 60fps 1920x1080 the Casio EX-F1. its a DSLR.

4k is 4 times the rez as 2k. why would RED take a leap backwards? when they can take a leap forward. I hope they have pretty much the same 4k super 35 sized sensor in a very very small tight package.

with the r&d they have done i'm hoping they are figuring this out. it would be in everyones best interest if scarlet and REDONE have a matching look.

Jim has stated it will not come close to what the REDONE can do.

Shawn Bannon

01-11-2008, 01:24 PM

that doesn't mean the image quality wont be the same as the REDONE.

but could mean it is totally stripped down. barely any inputs. few places to mount accessories. no audio inputs. more of a camera you would use for action shots, crash cam, etc...

Carl Larsen

01-11-2008, 01:31 PM

built in audio is a must. What's the point of a pocket camera if you need to have a boom operator with 2nd unit sound following you?

Shawn Bannon

01-11-2008, 01:37 PM

is it a must? i dont know one film camera that has built in audio.

i think you'll use your REDONE for sync sound regular style shooting and the Scarlet for action style shots where sound might not be 100 percent necessary.

i'm not saying it wont have sound capabilities or timecode. but it shouldn't have all the inputs to save size and weight.

Carl Larsen

01-11-2008, 01:41 PM

casio just announced a 60fps 1920x1080 the Casio EX-F1. its a DSLR.

It's actually a 60 fields per second camera - but nobody's really counting. 1080 out of a dslr is still pretty cool.

In fact, it can actually go much higher in frame rate depending how much you drop resolution... you can get up to 1200 fps at 96 x 300.

in either setting, there's no word on which codec is being used for recording. Hopefully, the HD recording and the "youtube ready" functions are not one and the same.

cheers

Carl Larsen

01-11-2008, 01:46 PM

is it a must? i dont know one film camera that has built in audio.

I still think it is. Having a built in little microphone gives you a reference for foley, marking shots, and capturing nat sound if nothing else.

I'd fight for a small mic even if it only serves as a starting point for mixing and sound replacement.

BTW - I'm pretty sure this isn't a film camera. :tongue:

Shawn Bannon

01-11-2008, 02:00 PM

BTW - I'm pretty sure this isn't a film camera. :tongue:

its not a film camera, I know. my point is that plugging in sound gear to a pocket camera isn't essential. sure a reference mic or an off camera timecode recorder might but necessary for certain circumstances.

the point of having a pocket camera is to keep it minimal and small and to only use the camera for certain situations. there are already 100's of pocket hd cameras on the market with sound, zooms lenses, etc...

RED wants to make a professional pocket camera. And keeping it 4k and the sensor super 35mm sized will solve a lot of problems as well as pushing them that much further ahead.

Yannick Hagman

01-11-2008, 03:43 PM

I made another quicker sketch, using the knob to move the screen around the back of the camera for bizarre angles.

BASSAM MSSALATIE

01-12-2008, 09:16 AM

AMAZING quicke sketch..:love:

Aiden Cornwell

01-12-2008, 09:49 AM

its not a film camera, I know. my point is that plugging in sound gear to a pocket camera isn't essential. sure a reference mic or an off camera timecode recorder might but necessary for certain circumstances.

the point of having a pocket camera is to keep it minimal and small and to only use the camera for certain situations. there are already 100's of pocket hd cameras on the market with sound, zooms lenses, etc...

RED wants to make a professional pocket camera. And keeping it 4k and the sensor super 35mm sized will solve a lot of problems as well as pushing them that much further ahead.

The main feature of redone is 4k. Therefore when Jim says it will not come close to the Redone therefore not 4k. The 2nd point is their is a huge pro market that does not need 4k. You have industrial productions to tv productions (reality, news) that 4k is massive overkill.

Also as was seen in the patient registry Red has 2k scarlet not 4k scarlet on record so all signs point to 2k or less.

Yannick Hagman

01-12-2008, 10:28 AM

He would compete his flagship product if he would do that.

Poi Boy

01-12-2008, 11:08 AM

I'm with you studiodrome...I think Scarlet needs to be and will be 4K. Anything less makes no sense.
Aloha
-A

Jaron Berman

01-12-2008, 12:49 PM

How have we all as cameramen and women become producers all of a sudden, obsessed with the buzzword "4k". It's like when producers discovered the word "HD." Regardless of whether it actually added anything or was even appropriate given the situations, "let's shoot it HD" is now "nothing less than 4K is viable?" For a few people 4K may be a great bonus. For most, the beauty of the RED system is not necessarily the pixel count so much as the imager size to price-point ratio. Professional is a VERY widely defined term...but I guess since 2K scanned 35mm film isn't 4k, it's not professional.

I think we'll see what happened with the RED 1 - a prototype body that fits the word of mouth ad campaign - a "pocket professional camera," and by the time it hits the market it will grow to normal size and weight (not necessarily a bad thing). To those people who are demanding a 4K mini body with ALL the same tech specs as the R1, think for a second about the mini-bnc debacle. They used mini BNC's because the body was shaped in a way that could not physically fit full sized BNC's...do you really believe they're just keeping the body as large as it is for fun? I'm sure that if it could be made smaller...even as small as the original concept form factor, they would have! And if they could run the chip and processing system off a handy-cam style battery as opposed to a hi-draw brick, don't you think they would?

The truth is, unless RED has drastically altered the entire microprocessor industry, to miniturize a camera, they must make SOME sacrifices from their flagship product to significantly cut the heat, complexity, and power draw. If it's not 4k, who cares? If it's not a S35 sensor, who cares? Sure, it would be nice but it's certainly not essential if the goal is a compact professional. If you could put a S16 or even 2/3" chip into a camera the size of a DVX, you could sell boatloads of them. And 1080p would be FAR more than enough, as long as the image is clean. It's the same argument we've had all along in still cameras - it's a LOT easier to market using MILLIONS of pixels, whereas a leap of 2 stops in sensitivity or 2 stops of d-range sound like far smaller improvements. It's all marketing!

Hopefully they just make a good camera, regardless of resolution. And hopefully they make it in a form factor that's revoltutionary in it's ease of physical handling. There are a lot of great small cams out there, and so far NONE of them have even approached a form factor that's remotely comfortable to use.

Shawn Bannon

01-12-2008, 03:03 PM

If it's not 4k, who cares? If it's not a S35 sensor, who cares?
A lot of people care. there are already so many cameras available like you describe. Did RED copy the Genesis? no, they blew it out of the water. Why settle when we can ask for the best?

If they make a 4k pocket camera you can still shoot 2k. Film looks awesome scanned to 2k because the source is so good. Who knows when the Scarlet will even come out. But by the time it does 4k will have already infiltrated the industry. And we will all be noticing the difference of 2k vs 4k when its projected off of a 4k projector.

honestly why would RED create a pocket camera that doesn't match the look of the RED ONE? 1/4 of the rez just doesn't make sense.

sander kamp

01-12-2008, 10:27 PM

casio just announced a 60fps 1920x1080 the Casio EX-F1. its a DSLR.

It's not a DSLR, it's a 1/1.8 inch chip camera.

oldphart

01-13-2008, 03:30 AM

...

honestly why would RED create a pocket camera that doesn't match the look of the RED ONE? 1/4 of the rez just doesn't make sense.

Because they already have the RED One? Why make another of the same?

Get real: a 4k camera needs 4 times the battery size of a 2k camera. It needs to dispose of the heat from the electronics. If you try to save on size by making a 4k S-16 camera, the pixels will be too small and more important qualities like dynamic range will suffer, and it will be too small to be efficiently cooled.

Clayton Harper

01-13-2008, 07:33 AM

A lot of people care. there are already so many cameras available like you describe. Did RED copy the Genesis? no, they blew it out of the water. Why settle when we can ask for the best?

If they make a 4k pocket camera you can still shoot 2k. Film looks awesome scanned to 2k because the source is so good. Who knows when the Scarlet will even come out. But by the time it does 4k will have already infiltrated the industry. And we will all be noticing the difference of 2k vs 4k when its projected off of a 4k projector.

honestly why would RED create a pocket camera that doesn't match the look of the RED ONE? 1/4 of the rez just doesn't make sense.

Hey dudes, there ain't no way the camera is gonna be 4K and fit in a pocket and I can tell you why in one word: OPTICS.

If you want fast, sharp glass that can image a S35mm plane its gonna be big. Have you ever held a Cooke S4? It's HUGE.

The only thing I can see is if the FFD for this thing is TINY like on a Leica M, then we might have S35 but unless Red starts rehousing Cosina glass like they did with that Sigma stuff, I guarantee we're looking at 2K in Scarlet.

I Bloom

01-13-2008, 08:16 AM

Hey dudes, there ain't no way the camera is gonna be 4K and fit in a pocket and I can tell you why in one word: OPTICS.

If you want fast, sharp glass that can image a S35mm plane its gonna be big. Have you ever held a Cooke S4? It's HUGE.

The only thing I can see is if the FFD for this thing is TINY like on a Leica M, then we might have S35 but unless Red starts rehousing Cosina glass like they did with that Sigma stuff, I guarantee we're looking at 2K in Scarlet.

Hmmm... Ever shot with a Lumix. Just sayin'

Tonaci Tran

01-13-2008, 09:44 AM

To me..and I would LOVE to be proved wrong, expecting this pocket camera to shoot 4k would be like expecting Canon to squeeze 22 megapixels from their flagship Mark III into a pocket Canon Elf. It would probably cost more to make a tiny 4k pocket camera even with features stripped down.

If Scarlet is 4k, one would have to think that the image will have a nice quality 4k image. If it does have a nice quality 4k image, it would then be comparable to a RED ONE. To expect a 4k image coming out of Scarlet that is even somewhat comparable to the Red One is unrealistic. If we start thinking this, we are going down the path of fantasizing about a smaller and cheaper RED ONE with just less features.

I would love to be proved wrong.

In regards to sound, I have been shooting with the hvx200 ever since it came out and I am extremely dependent on the built in audio capabilities. If Scarlet didn't have built in audio, I wouldn't buy it.

Paul Hazlett

01-13-2008, 09:58 AM

Red is not going to give away Red one sales by making a cheaper camera with "almost" as good specs as Red One. Scarlet at best will be 1080p
but very affordable.

Ethan Cooper

01-13-2008, 11:47 AM

It needs to dispose of the heat from the electronics. If you try to save on size by making a 4k S-16 camera, the pixels will be too small and more important qualities like dynamic range will suffer, and it will be too small to be efficiently cooled.

I think that the many people clamoring for 4K out of this "pocket" camera are missing this heat issue entirely. Don't forget that with 4K a lot of processing is needed, and Red has had troubles keeping the much larger Red One cool enough to operate in hot environments.
________
Bmw m06 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M06)

Jaron Berman

01-13-2008, 11:53 AM

exactly Ethan. Everything electronic has a certain inefficiency (HEAT). RED1 is as small as it can be already, asking for a much smaller camera with the same specs is... hopeful.

Oldphart hit it too - the current camera IS 4K at s35, and draws over 55 watts! What small handycam style battery have you seen that can sustain a 55 watt draw???? I'd love to see it if it exists.

justyn

01-13-2008, 12:23 PM

2k or 1080p in a compact size with a possible interchangable lense, slow motion, and ability to customize the LCD or viewfinder would be a nice one. I'm in need to get another camera this year and 2k would be more than enough. Something compact and expandable with low-light capability would be ideal...

cheers to all for giving us another alternative... Redone is out of my league for most of my clients... but something else in terms of what I already shoot like the HVX or EX would be welcome

Poi Boy

01-13-2008, 02:07 PM

Scarlet 4K; don't dismiss it because you don't think it is possible....remember no one thought Red one was possible.
Aloha
-A

Clayton Harper

01-13-2008, 02:21 PM

Hmmm... Ever shot with a Lumix. Just sayin'

Sure, there is a 2.8 zoom on a 12mp Lumix. I see your point but breathing and zoom artifacts on motion shots for that lens might be hard on the eyes.

I think the heat issues associated with processing 4K might be the most interesting objection posted yet.

Stephen Gentle

01-14-2008, 04:24 AM

I think that 2K would be enough - at least for the next few years.

I think having a 35mm sensor would be great, not only for the shallow DOF, but also because 2K on a 35mm sensor would be more sensitive (bigger photosites) than a 16mm one, right?

Great drawings too.

Yannick Hagman

01-14-2008, 09:01 AM

Great drawings too.

I will think about some concepts and faults of current models and draw them up as soon as I'm back from Marrakech in 10 days.

Patrick Tresch

01-14-2008, 09:22 AM

I will think about some concepts and faults of current models and draw them up as soon as I'm back from Marrakech in 10 days.

Could you put a Leika M lens on it?

Thanks Helveticus!

Pat

Yannick Hagman

01-27-2008, 12:45 PM

The panel under the screen is a touch screen which is only able to display bright red vectorgraphics, no kinky handylike menus to distract the user. It's pretty flexible. In the example on the left hand side is a jog-wheel graphic with a play and pause button in the middle. I think this is a lot more versatile as the usual forward and rewind buttons we all know. It could also be used for out of the box focusing in record mode.

Then there is a small screen focus panel. Move your finger to the point you like to autofocus on and press the play or record button. Repeat this action to set two autofocus points (Background, actors head). It's what we know from our SLRs, just without the need of moving the camera head.

I was always a little bit pissed of that numeral values on camcorders are printed over the screen and were hard to read under direct sunlight. With a black housing and red values on a black touch screen, this should do the job.

The displays can to a certain extent be adjusted by the users so a left-handed guy can use the jog-wheel from the other side for instance.

Nathan Buxton

01-27-2008, 01:05 PM

This is along the same lines, but better, then the image that pops into my mind when I picture scarlet.

James T Mather

01-27-2008, 01:07 PM

it would be unfeasable (and commercially idiotic - as it would compete with their main product) for red to make a pocket camera in 4k imho.

Shawn Bannon

01-27-2008, 11:19 PM

just because the Scarlet is 4k doesn't mean it competes. think of the REDONE as an A camera and the Scarlet as a C camera.

Yannick Hagman

01-28-2008, 04:10 AM

This is along the same lines

Nathan,

I haven't seen a jog-wheel on a camcorder so far, nor a autofocus touchpanel. Please state where you have seen it.

Cheers

vinodkumar

01-28-2008, 10:47 AM

Nice but plz dont make it too small which shakes on hand and plz no plastic.....

Yannick Hagman

01-28-2008, 11:25 AM

What is the material used for the Red One? Alu?

Stephen Gentle

01-29-2008, 02:19 AM

What is the material used for the Red One? Alu?

I think it was anodised aluminium.

Yannick Hagman

01-29-2008, 03:17 AM

I think also it should at least have a aluminium shell.

Andreas Hellebust

01-29-2008, 09:05 AM

The Scarlet certainly has to be 4K and the same sensor. If they downsize the sensor and makes it 2K, then why on earth would you want this cam when you can get the Sony EX1 for (probably) much less?

The strength of RED is:
-largest sensor on market=DOF & dynamic range =production value
-highest resolution on the market
-affordable

remove one of the above, and the product is no longer two steps ahead.

IMHO the Scarlet could be made as a "head only" camera, with the VCR part detachable (like the Silicon Imaging 2K camera). This way it could enter new markets (sports shooting, small crane operability and so on).

Nathan Troutman

01-29-2008, 10:04 AM

The Scarlet certainly has to be 4K and the same sensor. If they downsize the sensor and makes it 2K, then why on earth would you want this cam when you can get the Sony EX1 for (probably) much less?

You have to be joking. You'd buy an EX1 over a Scarlet even if Scarlet was 2k 35mm sensor and shooting redcode RAW? There's no comparison here. Because a 35mm sized 2K sensor that records RAW is much better in every respect compared to an HVX or an EX1. Scarlet would be just as revolutionary in this price category as RED One.

For those that are saying what makes Red revolutionary is 4k. I disagree. What makes Red is RAW, 35mm sensor, & 4K. People keep forgetting about RAW. In a more affordable and smaller package aimed at the HVX and EX1 shooters 4k is not necessary. RAW will be the thing that really blows Sony and Panasonic away. They shoot to a highly compressed codec with all of the image burned in. If the Red team can also managed to stuff in a 35mm sized sensor and 2k, plus of course shooting RAW to compact flash in a well designed form factor and keep it under $10,000 they will sell a zillion of them. There are far more people out there buying HVX and EX1s than there are people buying the Cinealta. Scarlet will be compared to these cameras not to high end film cameras. The competition has tiny sensors shooting 1080P (and pixel shifted no less with the HVX) to a highly compressed codec.

2k, 35mm sensor, RAW, & better form factor is a revolution compared to anything Sony, Panasonic, or JVC have out at this price point.:bleh:

skarz

01-29-2008, 11:10 AM

Yes!!!!!!!

That's the serious talk.period.

Thanks Nathan

Gene Crucean

01-29-2008, 11:26 AM

I like the way you think Nathan. Those are my thoughts exactly.

... but lets not forget the other part of the revolution. PRICE!

liquidigital

01-29-2008, 11:43 AM

If we're talking design, I love a throwback to a classic look. Hope that's what they have in store.

Nathan Troutman

01-29-2008, 12:09 PM

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. The biggest unanswered question for me is integrated lens or interchangeable lens?? Frankly I'm not sure which I even want - but you'd think a lens mount would be cheaper to manufacture than actually building a lens. If it is interchangeable I'd hope for 3 lens mount options: PL, and Birger's new Canon and forthcoming Nikon mounts. At least with the Nikon anyone with some old Nikon AI lenses could use them (albiet only manually) which would make good glass cheap for people to get plus you'd have access to all of the newest auto lenses to hopefully be able to control focus and zoom from the mount with the camera itself. This would give you all the run and gun advantages of an integrated lens set-up, but still give you the advantages of interchangability without the high cost of having to get PL glass. Come to think of it now I know this is exactly what I'd want. It might also give Nikon the kick in the but to release a line of new AF-S primes so we wouldn't be stuck with only zooms.

I like the way you think Nathan. Those are my thoughts exactly.

... but lets not forget the other part of the revolution. PRICE!

I can only hope RED could undercut Sony and Panasonic on price but that would put Scarlet at $6000. If they can do that Sony, Panasonic, & JVC won't have a market anymore and RED had better get a bigger manufacturing facility.

However, if you were going to spend $7000 for an EX1 I know you'll be able to find the $3000 to get a full featured Scarlet. Simply not having to build this long monster of a camera using a film adapter is worth the $3000 extra alone. It would also mean quite a few film adapters up for sale used.

Stokestack

01-29-2008, 02:04 PM

Remember that the EX1 is a three-chip camera, and if the storage can sustain a decent data rate, Sony could slap a much better (and intraframe) codec into it and have a full-rez 1080P camera. At least it would seem; there may be engineering hurdles I don't know about.

Red will have to trump this with something compelling. A single 2K chip is not going to give you full 1920x1080 resolution after deBayering. It's not all about resolution, but you have to set a decent minimum target that's going to play well in the marketplace (and hopefully on big screens).

It ought to be doable, but the evident challenges of heat dissipation and data rate in a camera as big as the Red One should temper everyone's expectations.

Nathan Troutman

01-29-2008, 02:23 PM

Red will have to trump this with something compelling. A single 2K chip is not going to give you full 1920x1080 resolution after deBayering. It's not all about resolution, but you have to set a decent minimum target that's going to play well in the marketplace (and hopefully on big screens).

I really can't debate you on the merits of 3 chip vs. single chip. The "revolution" of the EX1 is finally having full raster chips for once - whoo ho! I will point out that the DSLR world is not shooting with any 3 chip cameras - all single chip CMOS recording RAW. And the resolution they shoot at are the resolution they get. No one is shooting 12 megapixels to get a usable shot that is 6 megapixels. It's just that scaling down to a smaller resolution gives you an even cleaner image.

Plus don't forget the large numbers of HV20 users making great use of a single chip design. The footage is pretty impressive.

Sure Sony could use a higher data rate and better codec, but that misses the point. No matter what you do - recording to a codec still relies on packing the camera full of lots of computer horsepower and it still requires the encoding to run at real time speeds. RAW moves the processing power to your desktop where you have more time and much more power. Very smart.

Allan Stallard

01-29-2008, 03:10 PM

I agree Nathan. People are missing the quality of the image is not just 4k. Redcode RAW is the revolution. The RED would be great even as a 2k camera and Scarlet will be great even if it's 720 HD! There I said it. It's about image quality NOT quantity.

I see so much junk compression in the other mentioned cameras because I do effects. The wavelet compression is awesome from RED.

I can't fit an EX1, HVX, or HV20 in my pocket...

Andrew Hewlett

01-29-2008, 03:31 PM

I can't fit an EX1, HVX, or HV20 in my pocket...

I've put my HV20 in my pocket. Not saying thats a reason to call it a Pocket camera, but its the closest I've come. Can't fit HVX or DVX in my pocket...

Personally form factor means little to me as long as it can be stabilized and deliver HD progressive images in 24fps with Redcode compression at a good price. Heck, I'd buy the Iconix or the SI Mini if they were more affordable.

M.Halsell

01-29-2008, 06:01 PM

My Opinion:
1) Scarlet will definitely be more camera for the money.
2) Do feel that Scarlet will compete and exploit the 1k [1080] market space. the 1080 spec was aggressively dropped for the RED ONE spec. But think it will have a new home with the Scarlet.
3) Scarlet will offer less feature choice. But the choice will be palatable to a broader buying audience and will be more amenable to producing a larger volume of camera units.
4) Interchangeable lens? (yes) (maybe)
5) Feel confident that any Scarlet footage at the appropriate resolution will cut in nicely with the RED One.

and aesthetically... we will have to wait and see.