RECODE and Sony Vegas?

[Michael Mann]

Will REDCODE work with Sony Vegas?

[Brian Kaz]

From what I gather, it will work since REDCine can convert your footage into the format of your choice. However, I believe one knock against using Vegas with RED is that it currently utilizes an 8 bit color space.

[Rob Lohman]

During an earlier test I did it loaded just fine. That's not a guarantee for support though! But I like Vegas a lot so its definitely on my radar. I'm hoping they'll move to more than 8-bits soon, cross your fingers!

Oh, it also has a maximum of 2K x 2K resolution at the moment....

In this instance it loaded REDCODE RAW just fine. Keep in mind that you can load RAW footage into most QT supporting applications. REDCINE is another path to process your footage more akin to the film process.

[Brian Kaz]

That's (somewhat) good to hear, Rob. And thanks for the clarification. I currently use Vegas and if one day I could edit 4k at 10 bit+ with it, then I can die happy. But for the immediate future, I'm fine with 1080p/2k.

[donatello b]

if you want a 10 bit Vegas be sure to email or go by their booth and ASK for it....

[Richard Andrewski]

Yes and sony will be so happy to help the RED effort. I'm sure they're good sports about it cutting into their camera market. Haha.

[Brian Kaz]

I had heard rumors that Sony wanted to dump Vegas (and their entire A/V suite). I would love for Sonic Foundry or anyone without an agenda to take the reigns and put these programs back on the track towards professional respect. They were starting to get there.

[Rob Lohman]

As far as I know Sony Media Software is a different division than Sony Broadcast.

Does anyone know if NewTek SpeedEdit supports 10 and/or 12-bit at 2K and/or up?

[Michael Mann]

...I'm hoping they'll move to more than 8-bits soon ... it also has a maximum of 2K x 2K resolution at the moment....
I was nor aware of these limitations, thanks for pointing that out, Rob.

[Richard Andrewski]

As far as I know Sony Media Software is a different division than Sony Broadcast.

Does anyone know if NewTek SpeedEdit supports 10 and/or 12-bit at 2K and/or up?

Good question. I use the Toaster and I just asked your question on the VTNT user group. We'll see the response soon hopefully.

[donatello b]

"sony will be so happy to help the RED effort. I'm sure they're good sports about it cutting into their camera market"

sony Vegas ( media line) is in madison,WI - far from Japan ...
you must have noticed that a sony camera will come to market and another NLE can edit it and Vegas doesn't till few months later ( or the next version) .... or sony will offer another NLE/product with the camera so you can edit , burn DVD etc ...

i'm not so sure how many of the 1500 reservation persons would have bought a sony camera - i would guess only a few ( to none) would have bought a cineAlta 900 series or Varicam ??? i know i wasn't looking at any sony or panasonic camera's - i was looking at kinetta , SI camera ..


IMO bottom line is $$ - how much will it cost in R&D for vegas to edit X clips ( native) and how many will persons will buy vegas because of that new item ..
out of 1500 REDS what percentage are planning to use Vegas ?

[Richard Andrewski]

As far as I know Sony Media Software is a different division than Sony Broadcast.

Does anyone know if NewTek SpeedEdit supports 10 and/or 12-bit at 2K and/or up?

The word seems to be that it's 8 bit. Too bad!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Toaster and Tricaster are only 8bit I thought? At least the VTNT was last I used it, but that was a few years ago. NewTek was supposed to be able to scale this somewhat through firmware and software updates. Either way, the VT hardware currently needs a huge upgrade (IMO). They haven't updated or revised the hardware in at least 3 years. SpeedEdit is kinda nice, I attended a demo of the software. But it was lacking a lot of the tools and support I need for my current workflow -- besides, FCP works just dandy for me right now. I think the bit-depth question was addressed at the demo session I attended and I want to say SpeedEdit is 10bit, but I'm not too sure.

SpeedEdit reminds me a lot of Edius. It has lots of technical capabilities or advantages on its side in terms of performance. But industry support is really non-existent at this point and support for a lot of common industry formats within the software is also lacking. I was really hoping that SpeedEdit would have native MXF support and DVCPROHD support. No dice on either.

Edit >> Looks like the consensus over on the NewTek forum is it's 8bit. No official word or specs I can find mention this so I'm not sure. SpeedEdit is resolution independent (even between various clips/formats on the same timeline). Looks like it only supports up to 2K.

[Joe Carney]

If you have XDCAM HD and Vegas, you have an excellent package with full support and integration.
One of the biggest issues with Vegas developers is stability, they value that equal to anything else. I'm hoping they will feel more comfortable with Quicktime than directshow. But to be honest, 1500 cameras may not be enough to convince them to support it. They are big in the eng/Weva market. But who knows? I think they will move to 10bit when there are lots of prosumer cameras that output it. The are fast becoming an Island compared to others, but are still one of the best IMHO.

Joe C.

[Michael Morlan]

IMHO, Vegas is the RED One of NLE's - offering a top-notch feature set for a fraction of the price of other NLE's. It is a hell of a lot more accessible than FCP where one must navigate four menu levels and dialog boxes to import an HVX-200 P2 clip. Vegas is simply drag-and-drop.

I look forward to cutting many RED One shoots on my Vegas system. I'll put the money I saved on the NLE/hardware into my next picture.

Now, about that 8-bit color space...

Michael

[Ivan G]

It is a hell of a lot more accessible than FCP where one must navigate four menu levels and dialog boxes to import an HVX-200 P2 clip. Vegas is simply drag-and-drop.


I wish I can comment on the Sony Vegas NLE, but fortanatly I proudly own Apple's Final Cut Pro. :biggrin:

[Poi Boy]

vegas is great but p2 import in fcp is one window and flawless.
Aloha
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I like Vegas too... I switched from Vegas when I bought my HVX200. I tried Avid Xpress (too slow, too buggy with DVCPROHD and MXF at the time), Premiere Pro was buggy and didn't have support either at the time, so I went to FCP. Glad I did... Overall, it's a great editor and IMO, DVDSP and Motion2 are better than any competing product in the Windows market. Sure, there's Scenarist and other high-end stuff, but that's a different animal.

The problem with Vegas is it's still only 8bit. And their lack of attention and support to new formats and codecs is very concerning. But I think Sony is calling the shots on that aspect of development now, even though the SonicFoundry team still has free reign otherwise.

Not sure what Michael's complaint is over P2 import in FCP. It's actually 3 menu levels :tongue: and then a nice single window interface. Or you could bind it to a custom macro key to make it extra simple to access.

And how is Vegas drag and drop? It is for some formats, so is Premiere, but not for P2/DVCPRO media. You still have to use RayLight <gag> or CineForm to edit in Vegas with it. Admittedly, I haven't used Vegas with RayLight or CineForm since like a year ago and I know that a lot of this software had come along since then. But when RayLight still claims that they have near real-time performance, that says to me that they have improved, but still have a long way to go. You have to admire Edius in regards to DVCPROHD and MXF performance. It handles metadata and MXF files superbly and can play back multiple streams of DVCPROHD in real-time, even on older AMD X2 2.2GHz and 2.6GHz P4 systems.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm still using Premiere Pro 1.5, but I LOVE the evaluation copy of Vegas 7, and I'm dying to switch. I would love it if I could shoot REDCODE, downrez to 1080p, and edit in Vegas someday.

[Rob Lohman]

You can do that Ralph, if there's a decent enough QuickTime codec inbetween
REDCINE & Vegas (like REDCODE RGB). Of course, it's still 8-bit.

[Brian Kaz]

And how is Vegas drag and drop? It is for some formats, so is Premiere, but not for P2/DVCPRO media. You still have to use RayLight <gag> or CineForm to edit in Vegas with it.

The new Raylight allows direct drag/drop of the original MXF files into Vegas. It's pretty nice.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Really? That's pretty nice then. How is the performance with Raylight these days? Is working in realtime with two streams of 720p still a pipedream or is it actually workable now?

[Paul Hazlett]

has anyone heard if redicine will be a standalone app?

Here is a scenario....someone comes into town, you shoot for them on your Red one. Will you have to process the footage for them or will they be able to process the footage into what they need themselves?

[Rob Lohman]

Standalone? Yes, in the sense that you don't need other applications.

Licensing is a question we haven't answered.

[Paul Hazlett]

thanks Rob,

This is of particular interest to me since I do most of my work for other people
and alot are from out of town so a workflow designed with that in mind would
be very helpful.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Vegas is the best software for editing. Period. If only they would increase up to 10bit it would totally crash the competition.

I plan to edit RED footage in Vegas but the bit depth is the only thing that makes me think in other software, something i dont want to do. Macs and FCP are stupid and slow in workflow. Premiere is old and slow too. Avid... ejem, avid is like editing in an ABroll system.

[Pol Turrents]

vegas the best editing tool???? maybe for a prosumer...
Just for mention something, the timeline (compared to an avid or fcp) it's a disaster, and not to mention import/export EDL's/XML's... And it's a sony... with all that implies that!
The Mac's are slow? Last week we were moving uncompressed 10 bit, 1080 HD close to real time with the Final touch color correction software... So, it can't be that slow and totally integrated with fcp! xD

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I concur... Macs are fast, if properly configured and cared for. OSX is very streamlined right out of the box and doesn't require the tweaking that Windows does to get the performance. If you have a Mac and it's slow, you're probably limited by the hard drives, memory or something is just wrong or broken. Or you're comparing a dual core 2.0GHz G5 to a 2.66GHz Core2Duo system... Well, you're right there, the Intel system is going to be quite a bit faster... duh.

[Poi Boy]

vegas is good, but best? that is nonsense. Use whatever you like and make great stories or just pretty pictures for pretty pictures sake.
Aloha
-A

[Joe Carney]

Seems to be a lot of misinformation on both sides.
Vegas can edit 24p including jvc 720x24p using either Cineform or native mpeg2.
With Cineform you can import mpeg2 or hdvpro, convert to their wavelet codec and have fun
Vegas 7 edits mpeg2 just fine, without having to convert it to an intermediate format.
Vegas actually requires Quicktime for some operations.
Vegas can use any VFW codec available on the system.
Vegas can use any installed Quicktime codec (Same for Premier)
Vegas can handle multiple resolutions and file types on the timeline.
It has a very sophisticated Media Manager for those that care to actually use it.
Vegas can act as multitrack audio recording and mixing software, with VST support.
Vegas can support multiple takes at the same spot on a single timeline, thats multiple audio/video tracks occupying the same spot on the timeline and accessable via a popup menu. You select which one you want for final output.
With Quicktime, I can share/swap files with FCP users. NO problem.
There is lots of other great stuff for the craft of editing, but I think most get my drift...
So, lots of great features in it. Is it the best? No, but not lame either.

But Adobe is catching up and surpassing them in features and interopability. Almost everyone I've talked to likes Premiere Pro 2 and the tight integration with AE and Photoshop. But when Premier users brag that it only crashes once or twice a day now...Vegas users talk about how thay can't remember the last time that happened.

I think from Madison Media' point of view, will adding 10bit or higher support sell enough copies to justify development costs? Will adding 32bit floating point support do the same?
If not, then why should they? Those of us who really want that stuff are a very small minority. If they add any of the above this year or the next I would be surprised.
I'm looking to move to something else soon. Just waiting till after NAB to see what my options are. I really hope they surprise us this year, but not holding my breath.

This close it pays to just settle down and wait.

Joe C.

[Gopher77]

Vegas used to stable, since I upgraded to Vegas 7 I've had frequent crashes. I've moved on to Avid

[Joe Carney]

works great for me. No crashes yet.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

During an earlier test I did it loaded just fine. That's not a guarantee for support though! But I like Vegas a lot so its definitely on my radar. I'm hoping they'll move to more than 8-bits soon, cross your fingers!

Oh, it also has a maximum of 2K x 2K resolution at the moment....

In this instance it loaded REDCODE RAW just fine. Keep in mind that you can load RAW footage into most QT supporting applications. REDCINE is another path to process your footage more akin to the film process.

I love my Vegas, even though I cringed when Sony took it over. Disappointed that it took a 3rd party developer to solve the HVX drag and drop issue (even though I don't own an HVX).

I will not in the forseeable future be editing or finishing a project in anything bigger than 1080P, so the 2K res max is not an issue for me. Would be nice to have 10 bit support, though.

But if I understand Rob correctly, I could take a 4K REDCODE RAW file into Vegas and actually view it (computer horsepower permitting) scaled or cropped to whatever output res I'm using in Vegas. Correct? What about the bit difference issue? How does Vegas deal with the fact that the file contains 10 bit color? Does it somehow dither or remap or does it just cut two bits off?

[donatello b]

from the little i can recall ( few years ago ) a 10bit vegas was on hold till of microsoft did something to the OS ?? ( can't remember if it was direct show or VFW being 8 bit) ???
cineform can't get Vegas to do 10 bit so ?????

i do remember at NAB sony said Vegas 8 would support/be 64bit processing ...

just because one can drop a QT 4k clip into a TL doesn't translate to it is going to look correct ?? Redcode Raw is very flat , dark , probably has a color bias towards ???

[Mark Holmes]

from the little i can recall ( few years ago ) a 10bit vegas was on hold till of microsoft did something to the OS ?? ( can't remember if it was direct show or VFW being 8 bit) ???
cineform can't get Vegas to do 10 bit so ?????

i do remember at NAB sony said Vegas 8 would support/be 64bit processing ...

just because one can drop a QT 4k clip into a TL doesn't translate to it is going to look correct ?? Redcode Raw is very flat , dark , probably has a color bias towards ???

As of Vegas Pro 8, being released in 10 days, it will be 32-bit float (same as AE) among other improvements. See link:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?pid=457

...which is good, having come back to Vegas after a few months on FCP 5.1.4. Nothing beats Vegas (for me at least) for ease of use, stability, intuitiveness (is that a word?) and simple joy to edit in.

[donatello b]

something is not clear ... it says noting about being more then a 8 bit NLE - true it can process your CC in 32 bit float BUT will it save it as a 10 bit clip ?
i.e.- will it take my 10 bit cineform clips - start processing it ( keeping all 10 bits) using 32 bit float and then save it as a 10 bit cineform clip ?
or is it going to take my 10 bit clip and knock off 2 bits ( smoothly knock it down) then process the remaining 8 bits in 32 bit float and save it as a 8 bit cineform clip ? ...

AE can handle 8/10/12/16 bit clips - process in 32 bit float and save data to 8/10/12/16 bit clip ...

[Mark Holmes]

something is not clear ... it says noting about being more then a 8 bit NLE - true it can process your CC in 32 bit float BUT will it save it as a 10 bit clip ?
i.e.- will it take my 10 bit cineform clips - start processing it ( keeping all 10 bits) using 32 bit float and then save it as a 10 bit cineform clip ?
or is it going to take my 10 bit clip and knock off 2 bits ( smoothly knock it down) then process the remaining 8 bits in 32 bit float and save it as a 8 bit cineform clip ? ...

AE can handle 8/10/12/16 bit clips - process in 32 bit float and save data to 8/10/12/16 bit clip ...

I am not clear on this either. It's being discussed in all the Vegas forums. I assume since an NLE is non destructive, if you imported a 10-bit clip, and the only time the image is being manipulated is during render or print to tape (IO) then it is being rendered using 32-bit float and remains a 10-bit clip, assuming the render or print was to a 10-bit codec. It's confusing at best.

[Joe Carney]

From what I can tell, Vegas has a 32bit float per channel pipeline, which if I understand correctly, means it can handle 8,10,12 or even 16 bit per channel codecs. Similar to what After Effects can do, but full details are not out yet. If I know Madison Media, they took it a step further.

This is great news for Vegas users if the press release means what everyone hopes it means.

Now lets hope Vegas can use RedAlert without any problems.

Ship date is Sep 10.

btw, I think a viable alternative to Apple ProRes is Sheer from BitJazz and it's on both platforms. It supports 10bit 4:4:4 but I/O requirements are quite high compared to RedCode or Cineform.

[Andrew Madu]

Would any Vegas Pro 8 users like to chime in as to how their workflow with Redcode and Pro 8 is panning out?

Anyone using a more streamlined approach than the following?:

RED --> REDCINE --> Vegas Pro 8 --> SCRATCH?

Many thanks in advance.

[laguun]

But I like Vegas a lot so its definitely on my radar. I'm hoping they'll move to more than 8-bits soon, cross your fingers!

Oh, it also has a maximum of 2K x 2K resolution at the moment....


Sounds pretty much like Apple final cut pro imho.
:)

[jbeale]

R3D -> "software-which-cannot-be-named" -> DPX -> Photoshop -> PNG/JPG -> Vegas

a bit slow and clunky, obviously, but it works for short clips...

At the moment, "general distribution" outside of theaters maxes out at 1080p so the Vegas 2k limit is not a factor for me. Maybe someday I'll see something I've done projected at 4k, but I doubt it will be this year or next.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Isn't it easier to just cut with the Quicktime reference clips? I think i read in an older post by one of the RED team that Vegas can cut the Quictimes.

The only difficulty then would be the import of Vegas' EDL or XML to REDCINE.

[jbeale]

Vegas does not work with the Quicktime reference clips, at least not for me (using Vegas Pro 8b, which is the current version). As far as I know, Quicktime reference clips only work on Macs running FCP (and only if it's not 16:9 format). Vegas, as far as I know does not run under OSX.