<span style="color:#FFFF00; font-weight:bold;">50mm cinema lens matrix (Part I WFO!)<

[Evin Grant]

With the new year and and my new Red finally here I thought it was time to get back to lens testing, and this time I decided to enlist some big guns...

Brook Willard, Matt Uhry, Zakaree, myself and the newest edition to our little clan, Sherri Miranda (Pics below), who besides being a crack AC also convinced Otto Nemenz in Hollywood to let us raid the toy chest and have at a few choice pieces of glass. All in the name of science of course.

So I present to you part one of our new cine lens matrix. I though we'd try something a little novel this time around...

A guess the glass challenge :weight_lift:

I collected six lenses to test side by side under near identical conditions to see what the differences really were in a knock down drag em' out contest. I know I'm guilty of being biased to the brands I think I like so I decided to do my best to eliminate that bias and let you Redusers decide simply by eye.
So go ahead and vote on a favorite or try to decipher which lens is which, I leave it to you.

So here are the 50mm prime lenses we tested, all wide open, in alphabetical order: (Which they are not below)
Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Zeiss Standatrd Speed T2.1
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9

And for good measure we threw in one zoom (At 50mm of course)
A Cooke 25-250 MII T4

So there you have it, in a few days I'll update you as to what is what and post part two.... T4!

Disclaimer: because of the necessity to stack two ND filters, sometimes from both Schneider and Tiffen please take the color of these frames with a grain of salt. They were processed in Red Alert with near identical setting, I tried to eliminate as much filter funk as possible without changing the relationship from lens to lens. Sharpness and contrast are accurate to each other and identical OLPF compensation (USM Sharpening) has been added to all frames.

100% crop on the right.
http://www.4kninjas.net/OLD STUFF/50mmMatrixWFO.jpg

[Evin Grant]

Almost forgot...

...Here are the DPX files for your perusal...
http://www.redninjas.net/LTDPXs
Please Ctrl/Right click to download, Mirrors appreciated.

[Brook Willard]

I'm pretty sure I picked all of 'em. But I was there... so it's cheating.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Evin & Co.

Here we go>>>my choice of "a guess the glass challenge":

(The pictures are in order from the top 1, 2, ... to the bottom 6)

1. Cooke S4 T2.0

2. Zeiss Standatrd Speed T2.1

3. Zeiss Master Prime T1.3

4. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9

5. Zeiss Super Speed T1.3

6. Cooke 25-250 MII T4 at 50 mm

[Michael Lindsay]

Thanks for undertaking this test..

I'm a little confused as the stop is different?

regards

Michael

PS I have now read your post again.... when will you post something at the same apeture.?

pps when will you reveal the results.? I am struggling with 2 on my laptop screen. I'll post what I think as soon as I can see them on a normal monitor..

[Hans-Georg Daun]

top to bottom:
Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Cooke 25-250 MII T4

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi

Is it possible to lock 'The Third Man''s post:biggrin: ?

regards

Michael

[Evin Grant]

Hi

Is it possible to lock 'The Third Man''s post:biggrin: ?

regards

Michael

I'm not sure what you mean but let's keep this about glass and not about Sanjin.

[Michael Lindsay]

I'm not sure what you mean but let's keep this about glass and not about Sanjin.

Sorry, my post was playful... My comment was 'nothing' to do with Sanjin other than that he was the first to post and with this forum you can alter posts..

I think his answer is wrong but I need to get off an old laptop and see the tests on a proper screen to give my full answer..(two are difficult)..

I'll post (and be willing to wager) by tomorrow morning GMT.. I thought it was a bit of fun?

regards

Michael

[Anders Holck]

From a quick glance:
A - Cooke
B - Superspeed
C - UltraPrime
D - Zeiss Standard
E - Master Prime
F - Cooke Zoom

Mostly a guess based on the boke alone.

F, has some serious abbrevations and small boke which I attribute to the slower Zoom construction. B and E has similar boke with E being a tack sharper. C has beautiful contrast and sharpness, hope its the Ultraprime. A and D is pretty much a guess though.

[Greg M]

Image 2 is clearly the Cooke zoom

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi

Is it possible to lock 'The Third Man''s post:biggrin: ?

regards

Michael


I'm not sure what you mean but let's keep this about glass and not about Sanjin.

Thanks Evin. :) :ninja: :nuke:

[Brook Willard]

Image 2 is clearly the Cooke zoom

Think the Cooke opens up that far?

[Greg M]

Think the Cooke opens up that far?


oops, didnt even look at the dof.
#2 is very soft

[T. Glen Phelps]

My initial guess without looking at the DPX files:

1. Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
2. Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
3. Cooke S4 T2.0
4. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
5. Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
6. Cooke Zoom T4

[Greg M]

ok, how about this:

1. Cooke S4 T2.0
2. Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
3. Zeiss Standatrd Speed T2.1
4. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
5. Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
6. Cooke 25-250 MII T4

[Brook Willard]

One thing to keep in mind is an inherent flaw in our test: we had to stack different ND filters to keep the WFO stop the same. The sun was also shifting constantly, so different shots have different lighting characteristics. Some shots look nice and contrasty and some look like crap. I assure you, many of those changes you're seeing didn't come from the optics. A studio would be best for a true lens test, but we didn't have insurance to take the lenses out of the parking lot.

The faster primes were at a distinct disadvantage - we had two 1.2 NDs in there from different brands. Other lenses would have [at any given time] a 1.2, a 1.2 and a .9, a 1.2 and a .6 or a 1.2 and a .3. Even lenses of the same speed [2.1, 2.0 and 1.9] had different NDs in place depending on when we shot them.

There are more results coming that will leave the results a little more up to the lenses than the glass in front of them, but this is hardly the end-all test of these lenses.

But we'll all make some interesting finds from it...

[Greg M]

a studio shoot would be better for this type of test.

[Adrian T.]

a studio shoot would be better for this type of test.

Exactly.

And why all wide open? Most lenses perform best 2-3 stops down.

A test run with several stops and controlled lighting conditions would be so much better.

Thanks anyway for posting. :biggrin:

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi Brook

I'm gong to be testing primes this week (maybe only MP, UP and S4s). I, or somebody else with me, would be happy to post some of the results. If you think there is anything you didn't do that you would like to see please tell me as we may be able to include.

Did you do a test them at T2/2.1 (excluding the zoom of course).

When doing Time lapse (and needing allot of ND) I have on a couple of occasions had images softer than I'd hoped (also with colour shifts)

Despite the variables in the test I'm stunned by the difference between what I think is the master prime and super speed (panel 2 and 5)... Also I'm confused by how soft the Master prime is (if I'm correct)

one further question: your subject looks like she is moving a bit. Was she and what was the shutter speed. Could this explain some of the differences in the 1 to 1 detail.

If Panel 1 is the standard Speed (which I suspect it is) It is impressive..

regards

Michael Lindsay

[Martin Drew]

Hi

Is it possible to lock 'The Third Man''s post:biggrin: ?

regards

Michael

I know your post was meant in fun Michael but, out of interest, you can just quote someones post if you want a record they can't alter.

M

[Anders Holck]

But still a very fun test.

Could have been very interesting to have the burned out reflection of the finger ring in all the shots to see how purple fringing behaves.

Evan said he also did a test at f4 to test the lenses stopped down, but Wide open is interesting to test for low light shooting or boke vs sharpness.

[Stephen Williams]

Image 2 is clearly the Cooke zoom

Hi,

I don't think you have ever shot superspeeds wide open. Older Cooke Zooms are quite usable wide open, but benefit by stopping down a stop.

Stephen

[David Didato]

I'm going to be testing Zeiss T2.1 primes (these are the standard speeds I believe), along with a Cooke 18-100 T3, the week after. Let me know what kinds of conditions/settings you normally use. This will be indoors, and using res/color charts too.

[Greg M]

Hi,

I don't think you have ever shot superspeeds wide open. Older Cooke Zooms are quite usable wide open, but benefit by stopping down a stop.

Stephen

I try not to shoot anything wide open.

[Michael Lindsay]

I can't resist:

A Standerd Speed
B Master Prime
C S4
D Ultra Prime
E Super Speed
F Cooke zoom

This is based (nearly) on apeture alone. Will pixel peep tomorrow...

Was also impressed by the Zoom wide open!

Michael

[Michael Lindsay]

This chromatic aberation test is interesting:

http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45

Master prime looks super clean..

[Stephen Williams]

I try not to shoot anything wide open.

Hi,

I actually prefer the S4's wide open, I don't like their bokeh stopped down.

Stephen

[Brook Willard]

As the name of the thread suggests, this is part one of the test results. We tested them at other stops and under different conditions as well. We shot them all at a 4.0 [with the zoom at an 8.0]. We also did flare tests and fringing/CA tests.

While many people choose to never shoot lenses wide open, there are occasions when it is called for. Some choose faster lenses so they can live at a 2.0 or 2.8 and be relatively sharp... and others choose faster lenses because they need the stop. Accordingly, a lens's WFO performance is something to be considered.

You guys have all seen Evin's tests before - he's quite thorough and very precise. We didn't have the opportunity to get to that level with these lenses. But people will still learn something.

[donatello b]

i'll 2nd Hgdaun list !

top to bottom:
Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Cooke 25-250 MII T4

[Florian Stadler]

Probably:

Standard Speed
Super Speed
Cooke S4
Ultra Prime
Master Prime
Cooke 25-250

Thanks for trying to create something useful for the community. Unfortunately, it's not really a good test as the lighting conditions are not the same, the models amount of movement, the models position, the filtration, the T-Stop are not the same (that's a lot of parameters off to call it a "shoot-out"). Also I suspect that Focus is off on both the 1.3's and the 2.0's (they benefit from the deeper stop) and the only lens you were 100% on was the Zoom since you were able to zoom in, focus and zoom back out (plus it benefitted from the deeper stop). Why didn't you guys tell your model to sit still and look at the same eyeline? Use the shutter instead of ND to stop down? Could have been good to take a film camera with an optical viewfinder with a zoom function on the same focal plane to really figure out where each lens is 100% on... Just some thoughts for next time...

[Mike Prevette]

MY TURN!


1) Standard speed
2) old super speed
3) Ultra prime
4) Cooks S4
5) Master Prime
6) Cooke Zoom

[Alexander Christ]

my guess:

Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Cooke 25-250 MII T4

[Justin McAleece]

maybe people should spend more time doing their own tests and less time bashing the ones done by others. We are all professionals here. (at least Evin is surely) and are all aware of the shortcomings of any given test. That beign said every window to the truth helps and if you don't like it don't read it.

[Michael Lindsay]

...people should spend more time doing their own tests

This is very very true..

I'm very appreciative of this test despite any perceived test shortcomings.. I also thought it was equally put up as a good 'fun' game.. Something we might not all get?

You should allow people to comment on the test (if done in the right way) as it helps...

Michael 'probably wrong again' Lindsay

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

this is Hard clear photgraphy examination :angry2: so i will try
1-- Cooke S4
2-- Zeiss Standatrd Speed

3-- Zeiss Master Prime

4--Zeiss Super Speed

5-- Cooke 25-250

6-- Zeiss Ultra Prime
so God :meh: help me please..

when our results should come ??:blink:

[Chris Parker]

come on. we need to know. i think the interesting part of this thread thus far is that it is not clear which is which. lots of people are guessing lots of different things. quite interesting.

i really want to know which is which though.....

[Adrian T.]

Ok, my guess:

1. Cooke S4 T2.0
2. Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
3. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
4. Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
5. Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
6. Cooke 25-250 MII T4

[Michael Thornton]

I think we can all agree to guess that "#6. is Cooke 25-250 MII T4"? I own this lens, it looks like it's Cooke 25-250 MII T4.

Please confirm.

[Evin Grant]

OK here's the results...

1. Zeiss Standard T2.1
2. Zeiss Superspeed T1.3
3. Cooke S4 T2
4. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
5. Zeiss MAster Prime T1.3
6. Cooke 25-250 MII T4

Have at it.:gun:

[Sanjin Jukic]

I think we can all agree to guess that "#6. is Cooke 25-250 MII T4"? I own this lens, it looks like it's Cooke 25-250 MII T4.

Please confirm.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/cooke25-250mm.jpg

I own this Cooke Cine Varotal 25-250 mm f/3.6 or T4.

Some reports here said that "this Superman" lens is breathing badly :) ,

but I do not care at all and going to use it as a variable prime :sorcerer: .

[Stephen Williams]

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/cooke25-250mm.jpg

I own this Cooke Cine Varotal 25-250 mm f/3.6 or T4.

Some reports here said that "this Superman" lens is breathing badly :) ,

but I do not care at all and going to use it as a variable prime :sorcerer: .

Hi,

As I mentioned before the Superman lens is T2.8, yours is T4.
Both versions breathe when you pull focus, using it as a Variable Prime will not help.:glare:

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi,

As I mentioned before the Superman lens is T2.8, yours is T4.
Both versions breathe when you pull focus, using it as a Variable Prime will not help.:glare:

Stephen

Stephen,

O.K. agree, mine is not the Superman lens :waaa: ,

it is:

"Cooke Cine Varotal 25-250mm, Mark II, T3.9
Introduced in 1983."

LINK>>> (http://www.cookeoptics.com/cooke.nsf/history/1980)

However it could be useful because I am an old fashioned

cinematographer/director that mostly going to use fixed and measured focus distances :).

By the way focusing within a frame is so unnatural.

Just observe how you are focusing with your eye.

This focusing is so fast or invisible that means there is noa big need to focus again on the another point within a frame.

The best film directors solving this "problem" with (almost invisible) cut in a sequence composition.

[Michael Thornton]

I have a problem with lens support due to the RED 19mm rods. How are you guys supporting these monster from breaking the PL mount? The one I have usage a 15mm x 100mm Center/Offset Arri/Panavision compatible. lens support brace.

Help

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen,

O.K. agree, mine is not the Superman lens :waaa: ,

it is:

"Cooke Cine Varotal 25-250mm, Mark II, T3.9
Introduced in 1983."



Hi,

Your lens is a MK I T4 NOT at MK II T3.9.

FWIW The MK1 was derived from a TV zoom from the 1950's!

Breathing occurs when the focusing changes in the shot, it does not matter if you eye focus or measure. One of the great benefits of the retrofocal lens of the Z1 it does not breathe.

Stephen

[Adrian T.]

By the way focusing within a frame is so unnatural.

So either your movies will be soft or your actors won't move in relation to the camera. :blink:

Maybe you better use a 1/3" camcorder with a much greater depth of field. :whistling:

[T. Glen Phelps]

OK here's the results...

1. Zeiss Standard T2.1
2. Zeiss Superspeed T1.3
3. Cooke S4 T2
4. Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
5. Zeiss MAster Prime T1.3
6. Cooke 25-250 MII T4


Sweet. I guess this means I am learning.

Thanks Evin

[Mike Prevette]

I am suprised the S4 had more apparent contrast than the Ultra Prime. It could be because the front element of the S4 is so recessed in the lens housing.

Was a matte box or sunshade used?

(l unabashedly love the S4's)

[Anders Holck]

I am suprised the S4 had more apparent contrast than the Ultra Prime.

Yes, me too apparently...:ranting2:

[Sanjin Jukic]

So either your movies will be soft or your actors won't move in relation to the camera. :blink:

Maybe you better use a 1/3" camcorder with a much greater depth of field. :whistling:

:) Thanks for advice.

Art of cinematography has also part to play with a focus.

Misteriosity of unfocused actors is a part of good dramaturgy.

Also I watch movies not TV :) .

[Adrian T.]

Art of cinematography has also part to play with a focus.

Misteriosity of unfocused actors is a part of good dramaturgy.

Unfocused actors like Robin Williams in Woody Allen's "Deconstructing Harry?" :clown2:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/reverseshot/archives/deconstructing_harry.jpg

I'm really looking forward to seeing your movies. :tongue:

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sorry big lebowski,

by the way I am not a diletant,

I mean precisely something like this on the below pictures:

Fixed focus on the certain distance (Actors face/nose/eyes, etc..)

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/blood2.jpg
Daniel Day-Lewis in "There Will Be Blood" (2007)


The actor moves his face and get out of the focus.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/blood3.jpg
Daniel Day-Lewis in "There Will Be Blood" (2007)

LINK>>> (http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_vantage/therewillbeblood/hd/)

The same in "No Country For Old Men"

In focus

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/nocountry2.jpg
Javier Bardem in "No Country For Old Men"

The actor move his face: A bit out of focus.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/nocountry3.jpg
Javier Bardem in "No Country For Old Men"

LINK>>> (http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/nocountryforoldmen/hd/)

Watch movies not TV that could be an advise.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Sorry big lebowski,

by the way I am not a diletant,

I mean precisely something like this on the below pictures:

Fixed focus on the certain distance (Actors face/nose/eyes, etc..)

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/blood2.jpg
Daniel Day-Lewis in "There Will Be Blood" (2007)


The actor moves his face and get out of the focus.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/blood3.jpg
Daniel Day-Lewis in "There Will Be Blood" (2007)

LINK>>> (http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_vantage/therewillbeblood/hd/) :bye2:

I'm sorry Third man but I believe that is motion blur and I can bet you that there was a focuspuller behind that camera making sure that focus stays on his eyes (as much as he can).

Fred

[Anders Holck]

Yes, Big Lewbowski. Get that motion blur in focus!

[Evin Grant]

I am suprised the S4 had more apparent contrast than the Ultra Prime. It could be because the front element of the S4 is so recessed in the lens housing.

Was a matte box or sunshade used?

(l unabashedly love the S4's)

http://www.redninjas.net/testme.jpg

[Mike Prevette]

Lovely Evin.

Hows that ET dovetale?

[Evin Grant]

I love it, can't wait for the finished model.

[Greg M]

and the winner is (post #6):


top to bottom:
Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Cooke 25-250 MII T4


does hgdaun get a prize?

[Evin Grant]

He gets to be king of Reduser for a day!
OK Hgdaun... who do you want to ban?:w00t:

Just kidding of course.

[Greg M]

I think he should get a day of your DP services Evin :)

[John Chater]

Okay. Hands up who saw the answers in the DPX metadata?
I didnt vote because I could see the answers :-)

John

[Evin Grant]

I was wondering about that. Is there any way to strip it out?

[Greg M]

so Hgdaun cheated!!

ban him Evin, you have the power. NO DP FOR YOU!

[Hans-Georg Daun]

Thanks, Evin !
You made a poor noob happy for a day (never touched any of those lenses and probably won't for a quite while).
And no, I did not look at the metadata.
I guessed solely based on the amount of diffusion (bokeh) and similarities in color rendition.

[Jim McKinney]

my guess:

Cooke S4 T2.0
Zeiss Super Speed T1.3
Zeiss Ultra Prime T1.9
Zeiss Standard Speed T2.1
Zeiss Master Prime T1.3
Cooke 25-250 MII T4


I'll second this guess, Hamlet. We all know (or seem to think we do) what 2,5, and 6 are (SuperSpeed, Master Prime and Cooke Zoom).

[LATER ON: Not very savy of me, huh?]

With the remaining choices, #5 had the most resolution and contrast, so I picked that as the UltraPrime, #4 seemed to have the least, so I chose that as the older Std. Zeiss, leaving the Cooke S4 as the choice for #1.

Of course, there are variables . . .

but hey, this is alot of fun. And useful, too. I'm glad they're all WFO. It's useful and the zoom looked suprisingly good.

[Harry Clark]

Jim I think you're mostly right.
But I had:
1. Ultra Prime
2. Superspeed
3. S4
4. Zeiss Standard
5. Master Prime
6. Zoom
Cheers,
Harry

[Antoine Fabi]

Is it me or what...

It seems that Cooke Prime and Zoom looks a little warmer and more resolution.

Maybe just contrast.

Those Cooke look very good.