View Full Version : REDmote Station?
03-04-2012, 07:01 PM
I work at a local TV station, and one thing I have noticed when touring other stations is the need to upgrade the camera systems. This applies all the way from the local to the major religious networks they are affiliated with. The cameras they are looking at are in the $50k cost range, so epic is an option, however an overkill spec wise. They could save lots of money by going with Scarlet, except for two problems that apply to both Scarlet and Epic. The first is that they don't support 1080i. I understand this, but Unfortunately the broadcast industry has chosen it for their standard for now. This can be fixed with a format converter, although possibly at the cost of increased latency which is not good. The second problem is most of the productions are recorded live, and they perform shading, and some times color balance remotely from a CCU or RCU. To my knowledge RED has not come out with a solution for this. I believe the redmote and LCD screen have this capability, but we need to be able to do it from the downstairs control room, or broadcast truck. It seems like a true RED RCU would open up a very large selection of the broadcast industry to use RED cameras. It will also make the transition to 4k broadcast, whether it be online or on air, a lot more painless as just the production mixers and other processing hardware would need upgraded. Ideally there would be a Broadcast module that could send a camera menu feed and turn the remote commands over the existing triax lines. Then a set of REDmote stations could be bolted together on a rack drawer and feed their output to some rack mount SDI monitors. This doesn't seem very complicated, and the reward for RED and their new customers would be enormous.
03-05-2012, 05:28 PM
Great ideas but for now the Camera Opps can change the settings with what they need in the control room over the portacom.
03-05-2012, 05:53 PM
The 1080p issue is only an issue for some editing systems. Today for many of them, before you get the cameras for not so many of them. If you for example soft import 4xHD into a flame or smoke and use quarter resolution high quality, then you have a superb HD image. And at the flip of a switch you have 4 times the resolution at any stage needed trough out the editing and online process.
Autodesk has it now and so does nuke. Premiere also work with the given resolution and I think avid and the others will have to adapt or die, the same goes for TV stations. Setting it up now / today to work for a max of 1080p is basically not forward thinking. Thats like investing in digibetas when others are all ready buying HD cam decks.
I think if a TV station bought epics instead of expansive HD cameras and also adapted to a red code workflow. They would very much stick out from the rest in terms of quality. Further more they would attract a whole new/different kind of camera crew and also editors, and people doing grading.
The quality would shine and make that station looking ahead instead of behind. They would then gain more advertising incomes and things would go in a positive way from that point on.
It's all quite simple even though it might look complicated.
A TV station would have no problem having a few render machines with 6 red rockets each. Then you convert the material faster than realtime and you can grade on the fly. Thats better than you had using tapes...
So Buy a couple of 12core mac pros filled with red rockets, attach super sized fiber raids, san fiber networking, a few smokes licenses and resolve and redcinexpro on each of the machines and then have PC's with san fiber network cards and premiere.... And buy a couple of epics.
If you got that then I think your competition should feel more than a bit nervous. You can also live feed from the epic with red gamma3 and your news would look better than most especially with some on the fly secondary grading.
Just my ideas, could not stop think of how easy and cheap it would be to put up a top of the line TV station with todays RED workflow.
when I was doing TV we got the Editbox and Hal... 6 minutes of PAL storage, if you had the "big HAL" that was :)
Ryan De Franco
03-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Too much risk for the big boys with all the money.
You can do it the way everyone else does, make about the same, order the replacement kit from a company your regional supervisor has trusted for years if not decades.
or you can go with the cool camera all those younger people are making movies on, for which "post is a bitch," spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a workflow that overwhelms your needs and your capabilities, hopefully not get fired, in exchange for....
a more filmic weather girl?
forgive me for being crass here, but people like their news crisp and video-looking. I fully support the independent ENG/EFP producers who shoot Red but for entire networks to make this switch is like asking the legal system to switch to iPads, too much too fast not worth the money and risk in old rich men's eyes.
03-08-2012, 09:12 AM
... too much too fast not worth the money and risk in old rich men's eyes.
Probably depends on the old man. :)
03-08-2012, 09:23 AM
It seems the RC3/RG3 output from the camera could be a big plus for going straight from camera to on-air.
03-08-2012, 11:35 AM
Björn, I think you miss my point. RED makes great cameras for those who do post editing. For the part of the industry I'm talking about, LIVE is the key. For this, what you see on a live broadcast, there is live production mixing hardware. Many stations have invested tens of thousands of dollars in upgrading their production mixers, and most of the mixers on the market only support 1080i. So this is not a software issue, it is a hardware one. All of the productions I'm connected with are supported by donations, so the mixers are here to stay for quite a while. I have a feeling though that the for profit stations would not look nicely on replacing their new mixers either. They may post edit to fix mistakes before the next air or for DVD distribution, but they only have one chance to get a shot. The camera operator's job is to frame and focus the shot. By the time it is framed it needs to be able to go on air, because there are no second takes. The work load and shot setup time could easily double if the camera operator also has to do iris and color balance. We do this at some of the shoe string studios, but we also take a fairly large quality hit. This also would not be feasible over intercom, because the camera operator can't see all of the other shots in the cue to match with. There also need to be 2-4 shots ready at any time, so it is a continual process.
Ryan, I am aware of the differences in look between RED and the standard ENG cameras. Shallower DOF is sometimes a bad thing in broadcast, but there are ways of fixing that. For one, sensor cropping in 2k mode and stopping down could work when deeper DOF is needed, but there would still be much greater flexibility with the RED cameras.
RC3, RG3 might be able to eliminate the need for color balence on camera to air systems assuming the lighting stays the same color temp, but that is not always the case between house and stage for event shoots. The bigger issue though is the need for a shading station. Is there a way to accomplish that currently, or would it require something like a RedMote Station?
03-08-2012, 03:33 PM
I and others have and will always want Red to include a LIVE BROADCASTING capability for their cameras. They have stated that this may come true, when is another story. Here is the last of any such news. Recon Proxy Module.
03-10-2012, 10:08 PM
It is nice to see they considered stuff that can help in live broadcast, but I don't see that module as really much use for live without the functionality I am calling for. It would be great to see a red wireless streaming solution, but that only works for smaller projects where shading and color can be done in camera. HD-SDI is the standard for broadcast, the only time h264 would be tollerated would be for wireless roving cameras where low latency is necissary. Any other use would not call for an on camera module, but a rack unit connected to the program output. We just need to be able to get the on screen menus down to the basement production room or out to the broadcast truck with a remote to controll the main functions. Theoretically this could be done with a Sdi adapter for the evf port and a network extender for the redmote, but that would require development support from RED and I would rather see a triax or other single cable solution from RED. One cable for signal to mixer, menu overlays and remote control. If this was availible I could personally make recomendations to several studios and stations to go red and it would more then half their upgrade cost. This represents well over 15+ scarlets.
03-11-2012, 09:09 AM
I guess another question is what other reasons would prevent Epic or Scarlet from being used on a broadcast event style shoot? From what I have gathered, the main issues are shallow DOF, no 1080i, and no RCU/CCU. The DOF is the only issue that can't be fixed fairly easily and from other reading on this forum, it can be compensated for by stopping down and or sensor crop. With scarlet available cost is not an issue either. I don't know of any sizable productions that use cameras cheaper then the $15-$20k price range. Is there anything else that prohibits RED from entering this market? I understand RED's focus on cinema as their core business, but why wouldn't they want to broaden their costumer base with a few accessories. I hope RED isn't developing a cinema exclusive attitude like some of my friends have started to think. There are actually professionals in other fields too...
03-13-2012, 12:39 AM
My take is this - Jim didn't set up RED to revolutionize the broadcast live production industry. If he had I think we would have been looking at 5 years of explosive development in wireless transmission, embedded meta data from camera and back to camera fro production, and desktop/software based video switching targetted at high quality IP based delivery.
This is one area where I don't think RED should focus their current efforts very much based on their existing offerings, because they would be reaching just to maintain parity with the opposition. If Jim got the bug to do it, and he may well have already depending on what's in the lab, I think the product he would end up offering would be a separate brain to the Scarlet and Epic that was made fit for purpose for those industries.
Nothing RED has ever done indicates they are happy retrofitting their offerings just to be equal as one of the pack, every piece of equipment they offer screams 'I bet you never thought we could do that' rather than just 'Here's something you already know, just done by us'.
The second anything in their product range has a feeling of being equitable to other peoples offerings they will I am sure have serious questions about why they are even in business.
Don't ask RED to fit into the existing broadcast industry, ask them to revolutionize it, and then you might see something you like.
03-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Well, they just announced wireless 1080p in that new MEIZLER MODULE. I do not see making a whole new camera body as being in line with the philosophy of Epic. Modular is something that enables them to all of what you mention with just a new broadcast module. Also a system like I mentioned would far exceed the competition, not meet it. Sure it would be awesome to see RED entirely transform the processes in one go, but that's not what they have done to cinema either yet. They started with the camera and production workflow, now they are working on RedRay and projectors to finish out delivery. With broadcast I see them doing it the same way. make a module that lets people upgrade to RED cameras. This enables them to do a live broadcast AND make a 4K master of the same shoot if need be, or use each seperately. After that they can make the hardware to deliver 4k directly to the viewer if they decide they want to.
Just ran across this in the Scarlet specs.
REMOTE CONTROL REDLINK Wireless, Ethernet, RS232, GPI Trigger
Anyone know what that Ethernet remote control consists of or what it's specs are? If the Ethernet control spec is available I could write a program to do all of this quite easily... Then I would just have to add a control interface.
03-23-2012, 10:05 AM
I don't know- with goodies like the on set ipad app some of the live stuff looks like low-hanging fruit. I know that the daily function is not real time However even if RED keeps doing what it is doing I think the live stuff will evolve on its own time from a purely "we make convenient options" standpoint. You don't have to be first in every market to be successful, but adding a module for live mix/ transmission is a no-brainer if you think you can sell it to existing customers wether it is for video village on the move, or live mix. We use our camera for live events a few times a year because it is easy to do. Not having to set up cabling is a plus in my book, and making everything wireless would be cutting edge in all industries IMO.
03-24-2012, 10:21 PM
JD, you make a good point there. I just hope it can be done in such a way that it will be friendly to live production shading. It tires me to hear people talk about RED cameras as not really compatible with live production. At this point they don't really work for people that require a live shading operator. DOF will always be an objection for some, but so far that's the only one that is inherent to the camera that I have heard of. I don't think RED likes their products being inferior so I think they will fix the simple issues that are deal breakers for many that mainly do live stuff. They have lots of other stuff to do too though, so hopefully it doesn't get pushed down the road to much longer.
04-06-2012, 08:48 PM
Last year I worked as an operator on a short turnaround comedy/talk program which shot in multiple locations, and was posted same day for late evening broadcast... they used mid price tapeless systems with large media cards in the cameras, and converted the Hd/SDI feed from copper to fiber to send it from 4 locations around the country to a single location post facility. If they wanted an alternate angle, or needed to cover a feed hiccup, we fired up the thumbnail in camera, booked time over the fiber line, and played it back to them.
The 1080p feed from an Epic or Scarlet might have worked, but the download speed from the SSD and then the playback signal would have overwhelmed them. I do not know if they could have edited the 4k files in time to make broadcast deadline or not... but since they had 16 cameras worth of data 3 hours of media each, I don't think so...
Shallow DoF would not have mattered to us.. it suited the style of the shoot... we used our zooms as manual focus and iris variable primes.. rarely had to change iris... post did the contrast management of all source clips.. though we did have cards to load matching settings for all cameras, and had controlled lighting..
even if using the servo zoom, our stylebook called on us to use it between shots, not on the take....
I am sure we could have archived our footage, if desired, but we formatted our cards after the segments aired, and cycled them back into camera..
Fan noise *might* come up, but as our talent was close micced, with very tight hypers, it probably would have been fine..
we did loop audio from the main room board through a sub mix back to our cameras as backup audio...
while re ran TC on the cameras, and did sync them to each other at the start of each day, the production audio master did not have the same TC...
but.. yes, with 18-85s (and maybe a 50-150) on one of the cameras, we could have used EPICs... but it would have been overkill.
Red One's would have been rejected for having *only* a 720p out...
don't remember if we were 1080p 24, 1080p 30, or 1080i...
04-09-2012, 09:25 PM
hey Christopher, that's an interesting setup. Like you say, 4k currently often costs to much to process in a live or near live shoot. A collection of rocket enabled computers probably could have handled the editing, but I am not sure the internet/fiber network would have handled that well. It would be nice for a TV studio to be able to spend an equivalent (or less in some cases) amount of money, compared to existing budgets, on a camera that is also good for more cine style projects at other times. I really would be curious to see how one could implement the remote camera control over Ethernet that is mentioned in the specs. That seems like the best way to go about implementing a proper ccu/rcu.
09-10-2012, 01:22 PM
Should be what you need for broadcasting. :yesnod:
Shown with EPIC BRAIN ( not included ) installed.
Pre-orders begin September 10th. Ships Mid November.
Meizler Module $13,000
Weight: Aprox. 6 lb
Proxy Recording - Record Proxy files to a RED MINI-MAG card and record REDCODE RAW to side SSD simultaneously.
Wireless Motor Control Integrated Wireless communication between 3rd party hand controller and Meizler module. Internal wiring to front outputs for clean cable routing.
Wireless Video Transmit 720p or 1080p uncompressed video at 5Ghz. Wireless video system has <1ms latency.
Wireless Audio Receive audio signals from REDsync Master (optional purchase)
Wireless Timecode -Receive wireless timecode from REDsync Master ( optional purchase )
802.11b Compatible Receive system control commands from custom iPad/iPhone/iTouch app through REDsync system
System power is provided by V-Lock IDX battery plate , (IDX and RED data switch), or RED standard 6 pin power port.
Smart Hot-Swappable Power supported (battery can be switched when plugged into DC power without shutting camera off)
CAN Port Allows for Hardwired communication between the 3ality Technica hand controller and Meizler module
RS232/422 Port Hardwired communication for iPad, iPhone and iTouch apps and 3rd party devices
3D Port Sync two Meizler modules together to create a 3D lens control system
HD-SDI Port Output HD video
REDmote Port Charges and Communicates with REDmote viadirect hardwire
RED Monitor Port Support Dual RED EVF/LCD operating simultaneously via monitor ports on Meizler and Side SSD. Touchscreen control capability on the RED monitor.
Gig-E Port Master/Slave the RED cameras
4 unregulated AUX power outputs
Two 12V output power on right sidecar,
One Left side D-tap on battery plate,
One Front 3-pin Fischer for Cinetape or other accesories
Audio Port Hardwired 2ch balance audio input
Headphone Jack Outputs audio signals 3.5mm
Lens Ports Front
Control 3rd party lens motors for Focus, Iris and Zoom
STATUS Indicates the Meizler module status state
8.02.11 Indicates the wireless connection for Wireless.
PROXY Indicates the proxy recording status to the MINI-MAG
THCL Indicates the wireless connection for wireless hand controller
WTCL Indicates the wireless connection for wireless timecode
WVL Indicates the wireless connection for wireless video
FOCUS Indicates the focus motor status
IRIS Indicates the iris motor status
ZOOM Indicates the zoom motor status
Wireless Internal Antennas
Interchangeable 6 external antenna module
Switch from internal or external timecode
Internal timecode Receive wireless timecode from REDsync Master (optional purchase)
External timecode Receive timecode signal from an external source (i.e Lockit, Denecke and etc) via a BNC and genlock is produced internally
Report camera state back to iPad app (optional purchase)
Receive sidebar file metadata from REDsync Master (optional purchase)
Receive GPS via iOS app (optional purchase)
REDsync Master - $2900
Weight: Aprox. 1lb
RF ISM Band Transceiver 865MHz/915Mhz for wireless audio and timecode
Deliver audio stream to multiple devices
Receive and deliver timecode and metadata to multiple devices
Able to connect up to 14 devices
Supported FPS modes: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 29.97DF, 30DF.
Output sync modes: PAL, NTSC, 720p, 720p double frame, 1080i, 1080p, 1080i double frame, 1080p double frame
V Sync and H Sync Output to Camera
Timecode Output to Camera
Timecode output to audio recorder
2 channel guide audio input for RF datalink distribution to camera(s) and other devices
Interface to iPad, iPhone & iTouch apps
Output Video Sync
48Khz 16bit audio input
Internal Power: 2 x AA batteries
HD-SDI Receiver - $3400
Weight : Aprox. 1.3 lb
Any camera can transmit to any combination of up to 4 receivers (HDMI or HD-SDI)
Transmission is secure between the camera and receivers.
Less than 1ms lag
HD-SDI receives up to 200ft away from Camera.
5 external SMA mount.
HDMI Receiver - $1100
Weight: Aprox. 0.5 lb
Any camera can transmit to any combination of up to 4 receivers (HDMI or HD-SDI)
Secure Transmission secure between the camera and receivers.
Less than 1ms lag
HDMI receives up to 90ft away from Camera.
09-10-2012, 01:27 PM