Scarlet or RED ONE?

[galexander]

Which would you prefer and for what reason?

It is the David vs Golaith. Round 1

let's suppose Scarlet has these specs
1080P, 1920x1080, 12-bit RAW, $3k+ (i'm guessing yes)
Red
4k, 4096x2190, 10-bit uncompressed, $17k+


So you have a David
much smaller frames, 1920x1080,
much more information per pixel with 12-bits
much less storage requirements
much less cost, $3k

Golaith
larger frames,4096x2190,
less image information per pixel with 10-bits
much greater storage requirements
much greater cost, $17k

[Rick Darge]

Goliath for 'future-proofing'.

Goliath, because it exists today. David is all speculation at this point. We don't even know if he's human either.. he could be a cyborg.

[galexander]

Goliath for 'future-proofing'.

Goliath, because it exists today. David is all speculation at this point. We don't even know if he's human either.. he could be a cyborg.

well let's go to 'imagination land' like in southpark ha ha and say both were sitting on the shelf. you would pick ???

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ummm.. Red is 12 bit RAW too.
What sensor size are you giving the Scarlet?
Is your scarlet using a fixed lens?

Why is the scarlet compressed but RED listed as uncompressed?

And why do you think that 12 bit linear is "Much more" than 10bit log?

Lots of important information missing, and I'm not sure why your RED is crippled.

[Erik Bien]

Reminds me of a favorite joke: a physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on a desert island with nothing but a single can of beans. Hungry, they discuss ways to open the can.

Says the physicist: "I know: let's go to the highest cliff and throw the can onto the rocks below. The momentum of the can will split it open and we can eat."

"No," says the chemist. If we do that, the beans will all be washed out to sea before we can get down there to pick them up. Instead, I propose we submerge the can in seawater, and the chemical reaction will cause the can to rust, thereby opening it."

"No no no," says the economist. "If we do that we'll all starve before they're open."

"Okay," say the others. "What do you suggest?"

Says the economist: "First, assume a can opener ..."

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Well, this choice of names implies that Scarlet would eventually slay RED One, which is unlikely. The guys at RED don't seem to be stupid. ;)

Scarlet is more like the little sister, designed for people who cannot afford the RED One.

It definitely should have S16-sized sensor [and mount for such lenses], RAW, Tapeless workflow, varispeeds... if they also keep the no in-camera sharpening feature, it would be awesome... but... maybe I named too many goodies.

If it is ~5 k $, it will be a big-boi-killer, and resolution might be even 720p - for low-light performance and low noise, but it could be also 2K, which could provide beautiful downsampled 720p, 1K and SD outputs....

Dreams... dreams...

I didn't see a "Both" option :). In a perfect world I would buy both cameras. Imagine fooling around with Scarlet in your pocket :)... and shooting serious, orchestrated stuff with the RED One....

But my priority would be to make the giant leap and purchase a RED One... if I fail -> Rent... but rentals in my country are blood-suckers, so, if I fail - > Scarlet :).

And isn't RED 1 12 bit too?

[galexander]

Ummm.. Red is 12 bit RAW too.
What sensor size are you giving the Scarlet?
Is your scarlet using a fixed lens?

Why is the scarlet compressed but RED listed as uncompressed?

And why do you think that 12 bit linear is "Much more" than 10bit log?

Lots of important information missing, and I'm not sure why your RED is crippled.

see post #1, you can't put lots of info in the polls, quick to the point.

i didn't intentially cripple Red, just tried to get a standard off the shelf, why would you buy scenario. if Scarlet is available at 2k raw, why would you use Red at 2k? doesn't make sense to me???

the Red 10-bit compressed data is so far the best you can get from Red without need a "mini-Fridge" (saw someone posted that, funny as hell) for a raid array. ha ha ha :)

to me from what i've been reading, Stacey Spears is probably doing one of absolute best techniques possible with linear data.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7596

but you're making it too hard. for your own application, if both were sitting on a shelf, side by side, which would you choose? it's that easy. ;)

[galexander]

Reminds me of a favorite joke: a physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on a desert island with nothing but a single can of beans. Hungry, they discuss ways to open the can.

Says the physicist: "I know: let's go to the highest cliff and throw the can onto the rocks below. The momentum of the can will split it open and we can eat."

"No," says the chemist. If we do that, the beans will all be washed out to sea before we can get down there to pick them up. Instead, I propose we submerge the can in seawater, and the chemical reaction will cause the can to rust, thereby opening it."

"No no no," says the economist. "If we do that we'll all starve before they're open."

"Okay," say the others. "What do you suggest?"

Says the economist: "First, assume a can opener ..."

ha ha ha ha, good one!!!

the thread may seem deceiving simple to some but actually there is a lot to consider.

4k at low 10-bit, high cost, most broadcasters can't use directly.

2k, cheap, 12-bit, low cost, out of the box compatible with broadcast, if you want to scale 2k to 4k with 12-bits, it is not as bad as you would suspect.

those extra bits will mean something to a few people who know what's going on. so you have big and sparse versus compact and full of information.

and now say instead of 2k color frames using demosaicing or deBayer, you use a Mono instead and later on color enhance, now you have heaps more information, than trying to demosaic.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but this poll is completely pointless and stupid.

We don't even know what "Scarlet" is. It's a camera of some type, it's "professional" and it fits in a pocket of some kind. That's it, that's what we know.

I have two different thoughts or theories on what "Scarlet" may be. Both of which I am interested in and neither of which would make me choose "Scarlet" in place of a RED One. Jim has stated that it is not a replacement for, nor a competitor to the RED One. One of my theories about what Scarlet is, would actually require it to be used in conjunction with a RED One, hence why there may be no reservations and RED owners get priority in ordering.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but this poll is completely pointless and stupid.

We don't even know what "Scarlet" is. It's a camera of some type, it's "professional" and it fits in a pocket of some kind. That's it, that's what we know.

I have two different thoughts or theories on what "Scarlet" may be. Both of which I am interested in and neither of which would make me choose "Scarlet" in place of a RED One. Jim has stated that it is not a replacement for, nor a competitor to the RED One. One of my theories about what Scarlet is, would actually require it to be used in conjunction with a RED One, hence why there may be no reservations and RED owners get priority in ordering.

Based on what you said.... for some reason, I have decided to speculate that Scarlet will in fact be the next generation of Matte box technology.
Whatever that means.

[galexander]

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but this poll is completely pointless and stupid.


no offense taken, but your response shows a real lack of understanding the current market place of HD cameras.

there are actual cameras that are what Scarlet is on the market right now. Basler, Jai, Pulnix, even mini SI-2k. if the "Red" Scarlet is not a competitor for this market, so what? your point is really meaningless.

you can chunk down $8k at Dalsa and walk today with a full working 2k 12-bit camera.

so really not to hurt your feelings and avoid a flame war, your opionion is very much lacking and if all you wanted to contribute is that kind of response, i'd rather you take your negativity somewhere else and let the rest of of enjoy the thread to be honest.

why don't you go off and start your own negativity thread somewhere?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Having a REDOne dependent scarlet would be suicide.

The whole point of releasing a mini-cam/prosumer market cam/lower spec camera is to sell in volume.

It's been said time and time again: Cinealta isn't Sony's focus. It's like Subaru's Rally Car Team. The money is made in the consumer market. Especially if you can tag on a "professional" pedigree lineage. *cough* Sony EX-1.

[Charles Perkins]

we have absolutely no confirmed detail on scarlet. whats the point of this thread?

and your poll lists 'scarlet - performance' we don't know what the performance of scarlet will be. on what basic(fact) should we choose this option.

why cant people just wait until NAB for this kind of thread.

[Poi Boy]

If I was shooting the kids on vacation I'd take YOUR SPEC scarlet. For work ....duhhh red one, this is really lame. I'd bet the farm your specs are way off.
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

no offense taken, but your response shows a real lack of understanding the current market place of HD cameras.

I'm curious about how you jumped to this conclusion... But thank you for assuming I'm ignorant of an entire industry because I failed to see a point to a poll between incorrect specs of one camera and the hypothetical specs of another.


there are actual cameras that are what Scarlet is on the market right now.

Are you sure? We don't know what Scarlet is.
I'm sorry you took offense. With the specs you hypothesized, I wouldn't choose one or the other, I would use this little HD cam for home movies or as a stunt cam or... Primary production would still be on the RED One - even for ENG stuff I might be doing.

[Erik Bien]

Jeff,

I hope one day to be as "ignorant" as you! :nerd:

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

It's been said time and time again: Cinealta isn't Sony's focus. It's like Subaru's Rally Car Team. The money is made in the consumer market. Especially if you can tag on a "professional" pedigree lineage. *cough* Sony EX-1.

They tagged the EX1 with the Cinealta tag because they were so proud of the camera, You may look on the product with an arrogant eye but a camera like that is quite a big thing for a company like Sony and a lot of people really like that camera.

[galexander]

i think you misunderstand, i don't take these personally. most of the time i find them greatly amusing and get a big kick out of them :)

if i sound a bit 'harsh' at times, it is because i log on and write ferrociously fast on my little HTC touch while i'm out and about WiFi-ing, apologies if taken that way. i'm always logging back on later to fix typos.

you cannot relay tone and attitude in written communication only verbal, i took no offense at all. i found some of the other replies, funny as hell. we had a great laugh at work about them.

people who don't have a clue, meh, always be people wandering the dark.

it's just when unenlightened information gets spread around as 'truth' that i have stand up and say that's just f_cking incorrect information. it's nothing personal, i have NO want of followers, fans, or groupies, i seek honesty and truth thanks.

if you "knew" the industry of sensors NOT just cameras you would have known all of the following information.

"Scarlet" in this case is a metaphor for the anticipated "Red Scarlet" and most likely what market they could be aiming towards. i have no doubts that Sony would enjoy taking a big whack at any Red product which is announced as well.

but ok you want play, i'll play.
CCD's
http://www.baslerweb.com/beitraege/beitrag_en_48495.html
OR
http://www.baslerweb.com/beitraege/beitrag_en_17803.html
OR
http://www.prosilica.com/products/ge1900.html
OR
http://www.jai.com/EN/CameraSolutions/Products/Pages/ColorProgressiveScan.aspx
OR
ok you want CMOS instead

why? you ask.... 2400 x 1800, 480 fps, 14-bit
1,000 fps at 1920 x 1080

IMHO the absolute, baddest MF camera on the planet
http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=camera_v10_new

if i had the money for the V10, i'd buy two no questions, today, right now.

OR
http://weinweb.vhost.noris.net/weinbergervision/front_content.php?idcatart=155&client=1&lang=3
OR
want a cheaper 4k you can buy today?
http://www.dalsa.com Dalsa 4M60
they also have 2k versions, GiGe

the specs are NOT hypothesized.
they are real
they exist
they are not vapor ware

you can buy these, today, right here, right now so if you are so knowledgable, why did you not know these exist?

these are all minimum, 1080p, 24fps

you're very funny, "mr. you know the industry" :)

so please explain how you do not know this doesn't exist?

you would also know that Dalsa will soon be releasing a chip with a much greater QE.

why don't you and your followers head over to this thread and provide some enlightenment? :)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=137609

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I know all that exists, I agree all that exists.

I was saying that we don't know what Scarlet is, what its specs will be, etc.. Any specs we attempt to apply to Scarlet right now are entirely hypothetical. That's all I was saying. :biggrin:

For all we know, Scarlet may be something entirely different than what many/most are wishing for here.

FWIW, I'd love to buy a V10 also...

[Shawn Nelson]

1080p Scarlet for $3k? In your dreams buddy.

You guys are all thinking Scarlet is a low-cost "Red-lite", I think you are really off base. I think it will be a $9950 small form factor professional camera. One that is designed NOT to be an A-cam, but one designed to be a B-cam for tight spaces.

I think they will eventually do a "Red-Lite" for people who can't afford Red, but I don't think that's Scarlet.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm with Shawn. I think Scarlet will be priced between $8K and $10K. I'm really starting to think it will be 4K. RED is committed to 4K workflow, delivery, etc.. I see no reason for them to take a step back and deliver 1080p or 2K cameras.

Edit> Actually, I'm going to predict that $7500 will be the base price for Scarlet.

[Poi Boy]

I'm with Shawn. I think Scarlet will be priced between $8K and $10K. I'm really starting to think it will be 4K. RED is committed to 4K workflow, delivery, etc.. I see no reason for them to take a step back and deliver 1080p or 2K cameras.

Edit> Actually, I'm going to predict that $7500 will be the base price for Scarlet.

I've been saying 4k all along...I just can't see red going backwards or going to the expense of another sensor.

as for the v10, a very cool camera but certainly an expensive specialty item not for normal production.
Aloha
-A

[Zak Forsman]

4k is unlikely considering this trademark, right?

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=kvbepm.3.48

[Ravell]

4k is unlikely considering this trademark, right?

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=kvbepm.3.48

2K does seem likely regardless of that trademark - but Jim responded to someone who pulled up that page on dvinfo with this:


Good find... but remember, things "can change at any time". And often do.

Jim

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=806896#post806896

[brandon herman]

Once that trademark thing was found i wondered if it would get the thread closed, or at least some kind of announcement/spin.

when it was left alone, I began to wonder if the name was just registered a long time ago, and now development, progress, and experience have allowed RED to exceed even their own expectations. After all, when the RED ONE was announced, we never thought we'd get 4k on CF card.

(Or maybe they knew we would be sneaky, and put out a bit of disinformation. Like releasing a screenplay with two endings, or one of those online games where you have to find secret websites, with clues leading you to more clues. Just for fun.)

I'm really starting to think that it could be 4k. Jim said in another post that there will be a bunch of 4k solutions at NAB; and someone else from RED said that dealing with 4k was about to get a lot easier. (I'm paraphrasing all of this.)

It does seem like 2k would be a step backwards, both in image quality and in company branding. Red is 4k. End of story, right? We can hope so.

(Although, to be fair, I would HAPPILY take a 2K camera to shoot 90% of my projects, and rent a RED ONE for the rest.)

[red i wanabe]

I wana see how well the scarlet can be used as a braodcast multicam camera. who know with those specs and that price point, you may never need to even think about buying a SD broadcast camera again.

A tv studio with little tiny scarlets and big teleprompters. The quality might be on par with big boys.

I think we have reached the point were our cameras are just too much better than our monitors.

[sander kamp]

You guys are dreaming. A 4k camera in your pocket?? Have you had a look at a RED One lately? There is a huge battery on the back that lasts for less than 2 hours. Just the battery alone is hardly pocketable. The reason for that is that all the electronics inside the RED One consume a lot of power to process all those 9 million pixels x 24 frames per second.

Just look at the battery.