Sony planning "affordable 4K" in '09

[Ken Corben]

Early next year, we will see the Sony F23 HD camcorder released. There is no word on price yet, but the F23, “is intended to sit at the apex of Sony’s pyramid of HD camera solutions.” This basically translates to, “you can dream all you want but you will never be able to afford one.” The F23 clocks in at 32 pounds and features Sony’s CineAlta 24P capabilities along with a slew of other features.


* 4:4:4 1920×1980 RGB imaging
* Three 2.2 megabit 2/3-inch progressive CCD imagers
* 14-bit A/D conversion
* Support for 1080/23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p, 50i and 59.94i formats
* Support for multi-frame rate and SR motion, with 4:2:2 Capture at up to 60 fps and 4:4:4 Capture at up to 30 fps

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” There is no hard timeline set, but we might see something around late 2008 or early 2009. Very cool.

Link:
http://www.digitalcamcordernews.com/posts/2006/12/560-sony-f23-cinealta-camcorder

[Tom Lowe]

Apex my ass. Maybe apex for Sony. They should have put out a camera with those features -- or better -- two years ago. They have been asleep at the wheel.

And where does the "4K" come in? Have they announced a 4K camera? By 2009 RED features will already be winning film awards and be sitting on home theater HD-DVD shelves.

[Mark Thorpe]

Sony always have believed in pushing that envelope ............:rip_1:

[Jeremy Torrie]

I recall reading the list price for the camera body alone was $115,000. It did not include the 'film mag' which is basically an SRW1...so estimates would be around 200K for a macked out unit. How many Red's can you get for that?

[Ace]

2/3 inch? Are they serious? Still a videoalta IMO.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” [/url]


Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…that you can use with your RED camera”

[Tom Lowe]

2/3 inch? Are they serious? Still a videoalta IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Apex of Sony? HA HA HA. Not even mentioning RED, the Genesis alone will smoke this thing and it's been around for a while.

[Finner]

That's what I was thinking. Apex of Sony? HA HA HA. Not even mentioning RED, the Genesis alone will smoke this thing and it's been around for a while.

The genesis is all sony guts. The genesis was a panavision/sony combo. The stats sony is showing for this camera actually exceeds the genesis in some ways. I think it will probably be fairly close to a genesis.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Yep -pretty much a Genesis but the SRW1 transport on top...Real innovation! Riight.

[Brainstorm]

The genesis is all sony guts. The genesis was a panavision/sony combo. The stats sony is showing for this camera actually exceeds the genesis in some ways. I think it will probably be fairly close to a genesis.


I got to see pics shot on a Genesis/Sony combo last night at a SMPTE workshop in Sydney, projected off a Sony 4K projector, and they looked pretty f#%*ing impressive to my eyes.

Shame about the price tag!

I also took great pleasure in asking the head of marketing for Sony Australia how they planned to deal with the fact that a 4K camera would be available within weeks for around $30k with lens. He looked very uncomfortable and wheeled out the "we'll have an entire 4K system with a couple of years" line.

Oooh. Watch that man squirm!

The head guys from AVID Australia came up to me afterwards and wanted to know everything I could tell them about RED. I emailed them info today and they're getting onto AVID in the USA overnight to ask RED data can be maximized in an AVID workflow.


One other interesting thing that came up: The Digital Cinema Initiative (which includes virtually all the major studios), the group trying to set the standards for digital distribution, have supposedly set a data limit of 660GB for digital features... so they can deliver them to the projectors via satellite and control every aspect of distribution, right down to remotely reading when a bulb needs changing in a projector. So.... 4K features will go out with JPEG2000 compression on them no matter what you deliver to the distributor/studio.

[MikeCurtis]

Torrie - that price is in line with rumors I've heard, so $180-$200K for F23 with SRW-1 recorder docked to it.

But it is scheduled to ship THIS year, not next - this spring is the last date I saw. I'd say 99% likelihood they'll have working units at NAB if not shipping by June. Saw Jeff Cree speak about it at Sundance, and he said he would have had it there to demo if not for a scheduling conflict.

-mike

[Finner]

I got to see pics shot on a Genesis/Sony combo last night at a SMPTE workshop in Sydney, projected off a Sony 4K projector, and they looked pretty f#%*ing impressive to my eyes.


Ya I've used the genesis before and it turns out fantastic images, so does the ARRI D20, I did some tests with it a few months ago. like I have mentioned before if the red puts out images at the level of the genesis or the D20 the RED will be fantastic. So many have mentioned on here how much better they think the red will be then other high level digital cinema cameras but having shot and tested these cameras I can confidently say that even if RED was to only match the quality of these cameras all buyers will be blown away.

[Ace]

The genesis is a full frame sensor. No point even mentioning it in comparison to sonys cameras.

[Finner]

The genesis is a full frame sensor. No point even mentioning it in comparison to sonys cameras.

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet. I would bet sony would use the majority of genesis technology. I am no fan of sony but this camera will probably be great. Just very expensive.

[Chris Kenny]

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet.

But the Genesis is, in fact, full frame (well, full width) and single-sensor. That means, like RED, it can use traditional cinematography lenses and get 35mm depth of field. The F23 won't do those things. Frankly this is somewhat strange, because the camera seems like overkill for the broadcast market, yet it lacks these capabilities, which are highly desirable for digital cinematography, and are largely the reason the Genesis was created in the first place.

[Tom Lowe]

Exactly. Genesis is full frame, not 2/3". That's why I said it smokes this F23, IMO.

[Finner]

I have a feeling sony may have signed some kind of 2 or 3 year non-competition contract with panavision when they teamed up to build the genesis. So if that is the case a sensor clause may be part of the contract. So a full frame sensor may be an upgrade to this new sony product or it may more likely come out with a second generation for more money in a little while.

[Ace]

The genesis is max 1080. Until the are tested against each other I do not think there is anyone that can make blanket judgement statements yet. I would bet sony would use the majority of genesis technology. I am no fan of sony but this camera will probably be great. Just very expensive.

Doesnt matter if the genesis' max is 1080. The fact that its 1080 spread over a 35mm sensor means alot. Less noise, wider range, tone, and a sharper picture. The bottomline is, i would MUCH rather work with 1080 from a full frame sensor than 4K from a 2/3 inch sensor.

When it comes to sensors, bigger is better, regardless of resoloution (to a point). When you have larger photosites sampling a much larger imaging diameter from a lens, resoloution becomes the least important factor in the image quality equation.

4K is perfect for a s35 sensor. Not for 2/3.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…that you can use with your RED camera”

:)



It's going to be fun seeing the Red's effect on Sony's sales...

[Andrew M.]

Also, it appears that Sony will be working on, “an entire pipeline of affordable 4K equipment…” There is no hard timeline set, but we might see something around late 2008 or early 2009. Very cool.

If I would be Sony exec I will work on how to buy RED company in 2008/2009 once RED proves itself as a good product. Maybe that is why they put 4K for 2009?
So guys love RED but have respect to forces of power…

[Hrvoje Simic]

I sincerely doubt RED company will ever be for sale.

[PaulClements]

I have a feeling sony may have signed some kind of 2 or 3 year non-competition contract with panavision when they teamed up to build the genesis...

An interesting point, and one which might explain why they have not been too quick or vocal about a 4k camera. Perhaps once that contract is out of the way we might see Sony delivering a comparitive product with a comparitive price tag to the Red One.

[Chris Gearhart]

The article was written in 2006--thus the "early next year" datum.

[Ivan G]

I wanna see Sony on there f#*@$%*g knees when the RED is released! They know they control the HD "PRO" industry and it makes me sick to have to wait for them to make a move before anyone else does. Well, not this time. :ranting2:

[Andrew M.]

Sony is in legacy broadcast equipment business here.
I will not consider them pro in the cinematography equipment.
As a well structured company it is difficult for them to respond to a sadden technology changes and not for sure to the revolution going on. They are like big ship on the ocean and RED is like a speed boat making circle around them. Said that, there is nothing wrong with a legacy equipment manufacture to buy new small good companies.

[JohnF]

I have to say that in the past, from a video point of view, Sony used to be a great company making good reliable products.

Alas, in my opinion, this is no longer the case as they have applied the market fragmentaion model to their product range leaving a set of "not quite right products" which as a cameraman I would not be happy using.

Another side is that Sony display an incredible arrogance of recent, dismissing alot of cameramens wants, which I think is unfortunate for them as alot of formerly loyal Sony users are now moving away from them.

I'll give an example, last year when discussing HD options with Sony I expressed my want and need for a 35mm imaging chip, which as you all know would give me a versitile set of lens and shooting options, I asked if this was coming along in the near future and the Sony staff then went on to say "I didn't want a 35mm chip" I stated that I did for many reasons and that DOF was very important to me and they repeated that I didn't want a 35mm chip (they even said "No you don't.").
This discussion almost ended in an argument when the Sony representative, when asked if they will be reducing the size of the portable SR deck, told me I didn't want a smaller deck as I would want large (bulky) equipment to intimidate actors on set (like a large 35mm camera+magazine). I mentioned that without a 35mm chip that was a pointless argument. (and frankly stupid)

I left this meeting very dissapointed and quite shocked that a formerly okay company was now acting so stupidly. And as result my thoughts moved to the far more practical(price vs features) Panasonic cameras but once and for all confirmed my feeling that RED looked like the best option for the future.

JohnF

[Jeremy Torrie]

I have had similar arugments with Sony over the years. If I add up all the money I've spent on Sony pro gear since say 1997, the amount is around $500,000 CDN. Now that sounds like a lot of cash, and I believe it is. Did I ever get a thank you? Nope. A coffee mug? Nope. Have them listen to my professional opinion? I think you know. I have always pushed them about improving their technology and they simply state the numbers...we have x number of units in the marketplace and they don't seem to mind...what this speaks of is the inability to think intelligently and innovate, which is what Jannard's team is doing.

Now say what you want about the cost of their gear; It is the de facto standard around the world, and yes the Red NAB show will have a Sony 4K projector. But the point is, what do people master to? In SD it is Digi Beta, and in HD its HDCam or HDSR, or D5 and that's driven by broadcasters such as NBC and HDNet and so on who require certain broadcast standards, and that isn't likely to change.

So regardless of what format or camera we shoot on, invariably we're going to need some kind of Sony VTR to master to, and those machines aren't that cheap. It's a sad reality.

[Finner]

Doesnt matter if the genesis' max is 1080. The fact that its 1080 spread over a 35mm sensor means alot. Less noise, wider range, tone, and a sharper picture. The bottomline is, i would MUCH rather work with 1080 from a full frame sensor than 4K from a 2/3 inch sensor.

When it comes to sensors, bigger is better, regardless of resoloution (to a point). When you have larger photosites sampling a much larger imaging diameter from a lens, resoloution becomes the least important factor in the image quality equation.

4K is perfect for a s35 sensor. Not for 2/3.

I don't disagree with you for a second that a cameras sensor is the heart of a camera. A sensor is just the first step in the process of aquiring a great image. Size is great but if a camera does not preform well after the sensor it will not put out as good of an image as the sensor see's. Not much unlike a car engine, sure in basic theory the biggest engine should make the fastest car but things are a little more complex then that. It seems to me like every camera company I have spoke with will use some stat to prove why their camera is superior. For me the proof is in the image. In the past I used to jump on stats but found from time to time I was suprised with a camera that seemed to have lesser stats but performed much better (panasonic vs sony). So I have begun to no longer make any judgements on a camera until I have the chance to test it. This sony will more then likely put out amazing images and at the price it better.

I am very glad I have a RED on the way as its concept seems to make the most sense to me when building a camera. None of this is any kind of argument against the red camera all I am saying is that there is a lot more to a camera then just its sensor.

[Graeme Nattress]

I think the key thing in building a camera is a sense of aesthetic, and a goal to produce beautiful images, not just technically correct images.

Graeme

[Tom Lowe]

Whichever Red user picks up the first Oscar for best cinematography should quote Graeme on that. ;)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I plan to... Oh, wait.. Me, win an Oscar??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA. Riiiight.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I think the key thing in building a camera is a sense of aesthetic, and a goal to produce beautiful images, not just technically correct images.

Graeme



Whichever Red user picks up the first Oscar for best cinematography should quote Graeme on that. ;)


Yep.
Many words said here will be remembered and quoted over the years.

[Finner]

I think the key thing in building a camera is a sense of aesthetic, and a goal to produce beautiful images, not just technically correct images.

Graeme


Thats exciting to hear from someone that has their head full of the tech end of things so much. To many camera engineers get so caught up with the techie end of things that they lose track and have trouble realizing that the image is the key.

[Graeme Nattress]

Finner, that's my point entirely! Well said.

Graeme

[Finner]

Well Graeme us fellow Canucks need to stick together. I look forward to meeting you at NAB.

Oh ya by the way I'm an Oilers guy but I do route for the Senators over the leafs and Canadians.