Saw 4K+ Red footage close-up at QuVis today

[goldyprog]

I just got back from QuVis headquarters in Topeka, KS to demo their 4K player. Subsequently they had the original 4K footage from the IBC demo on the system, so I was able to check out the footage (and close up) for the very first time. It looked incredible, compared to some mock-up 4K clips (the Poseidon opening scene and a snippet from "Cars"). I believe Poseidon was scanned via Northlight and Cars was finished in 4K as well. The Red footage looked like zero grain and handles movement incredibly well. Close-up to the screen, I could not find noise or grain details, compared to the 4K Poseidon opening sequence. For those that have not seen the footage on the Sony 4K projector (110), let me tell you that I was shocked and couldn't be more excited than ever for a cinema camera. Truly amazing. The Sony projector is incredible as well.

[Petr Dvorak]

I think Cars were probably first 3D movie finished in 4K

[Joel Kaye]

Yeah - but it doesn't look like "FILM". ;-)

Get ready to hear that phrase mercilessly echoed from the mouths of 35mm cinematographers as they inch UP the volume on their phonographs and play "Glory Days" just one more time.

[Poi Boy]

Yeah..the simple answer will be "it isn't film, but if you like, we can degrade it and make it look just like film."
I can't wait to get my camera !

Aloha
-A

[Andrew M.]

Yeah - but it doesn't look like "FILM". ;-)

Get ready to hear that phrase mercilessly echoed from the mouths of 35mm cinematographers as they inch UP the volume on their phonographs and play "Glory Days" just one more time.

Guess what my EOS-1Ds Mark II is not film as well.
Anybody from Press or people that read high end glossy journals has a word of critic?
I guess no body left out there, in very short time, that has problem with the fact that it is not a film camera.

[Rick Darge]

I wonder what the first major film studio release will be that shoots on the RED?

[Joel Kaye]

people that read high end glossy journals has a word of critic?
I guess no body left out there, in very short time, that has problem with the fact that it is not a film camera.

Oh there are still photographers that stick with film out there. But the reality is average viewers don't know what's what. They just know if they are enjoying themselves or not. I think digital SLR's look great.

I'm kinda curious to see if New Line Cinema takes movies shot on RED. I think they stopped taking movies shot on F900's because they don't like the noise in the film outs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I wonder what the first major film studio release will be that shoots on the RED?

Richard, you are a creative guy - get busy....
I can't wait to see the first RGDfilms short from the RED!

[Michael Schrengohst]

Oh there are still photographers that stick with film out there. But the reality is average viewers don't know what's what. They just know if they are enjoying themselves or not. I think digital SLR's look great.

I'm kinda curious to see if New Line Cinema takes movies shot on RED. I think they stopped taking movies shot on F900's because they don't like the noise in the film outs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.

The only noise from a RED film out would be from the film itself.

[Billy Summers]

It will be weird to not have to think about noise (HD) or grain (film) when shooting/lighting.

How will the RED respond in low light conditions?

[goldyprog]

I wonder what the first major film studio release will be that shoots on the RED?


I would anticipate New Line or Universal.

I think a lot of music video directors will vie fast for Red, and we will see a large influx of Red MVs, simply because they are often less timely than features, and by technical standards, a music artist paying for his/her video empowers the director creative and technical freedom moreso than a studio empowers a feature film director and/or producer/s.

[Billy Summers]

I would anticipate New Line or Universal.

It could be an indie that gets picked up for theatrical release as well-
:construction:

[Billy Summers]

I would anticipate New Line or Universal.

I think a lot of music video directors will vie fast for Red, and we will see a large influx of Red MVs, simply because they are often less timely than features, and by technical standards, a music artist paying for his/her video empowers the director creative and technical freedom moreso than a studio empowers a feature film director and/or producer/s.

What about the DP?

[Ace]

Yeah - but it doesn't look like "FILM". ;-)

Get ready to hear that phrase mercilessly echoed from the mouths of 35mm cinematographers as they inch UP the volume on their phonographs and play "Glory Days" just one more time.

Even Film doesnt look like film untill its graded and processed properly. Those shots were raw out of the camera.

[goldyprog]

What about the DP?

I guess it depends on the production. Sometimes the DP is fully responsible for the "look", and sometimes the director is fully in charge

[Rick Darge]

It really depends on how 'weak-minded' the director is. I've been on productions where the director knows exactly what they want and the DP will work in conjunction with their needs. Other times the director is completely clueless and in that case the DP usually steps in and takes the whole thing over.

[Joe Carney]

hmmm, I'm thinking....the ultimate Star Trek fan film.....better than the commercial series....hmmmmm.

Joe C.

[Sean]

Yeah..the simple answer will be "it isn't film, but if you like, we can degrade it and make it look just like film."
-A

I imagine there will be all kinds of techniques employed to "degrade" or add "soft focus" filters in order to get 4K to acquire the film look. Even 35mm film often requires filters in order not to appear too "sharp", so the film look is often a matter of softening the image anyhow.

[Rob Lohman]

hmmm, I'm thinking....the ultimate Star Trek fan film.....better than the commercial series....hmmmmm.

Joe C.

Better than the last few movies at least. I'm putting more faith in Star Trek Of Gods and Men, than the new "official" one coming out Christmas '08

[Thomas Mathai]

Even Film doesnt look like film untill its graded and processed properly. Those shots were raw out of the camera.

Well grading is a recent activity. For decades films have been photochemically color timed, but that's just messing with density, and adjusting printer lights to an overall picture. This meant if you didn't like that red couch in the corner, too bad, it'll still be red.

Now you can isolate, correct and change particular elements, so that red couch can be green or black, etc.

When it comes to degrading a digital film to make it look more like film, hope you have the time and/or money to deal with it. Sometimes it looks like just noise, other times it's unnoticeable.

[Ralph Oshiro]

It will be weird to not have to think about noise (HD) or grain (film) when shooting/lighting.Yeah, but a real f--king GOOD kinda weird, huh?

[Rocco Schult]

I just got back from QuVis .. they had the original 4K footage from the IBC demo on the system .. It looked incredible, compared to some mock-up 4K clips (the Poseidon opening scene and a snippet from "Cars"). I believe Poseidon was scanned via Northlight and Cars was finished in 4K as well. The Red footage looked like zero grain and handles movement incredibly well.

I don't want be too sceptical, but still you don't know what they have done/filtered to the original images. I would say the same if I were them. At least they were graded. And There wasn't too much motion in there, wasn't it ?
Should they have cracked the holy grale of progressive motion atrifacts ?
I could believe and am positive and willing to, but seen I haven't any evidence for that. All very little, smooth, motion...
But yeah, the mockups were terrible. - Not a good advertisement for 4k in Hollywood (if shot on film)


Even Film doesnt look like film untill its graded and processed properly.

It does. Out of the lab. Thats film.


Those shots were raw out of the camera.

And yeah, thats what I doubt.

[Petr Dvorak]

I wonder what the first major film studio release will be that shoots on the RED?

And I wonder, what the first major film studio release will be that let their flick go to cinema on 4K projector without any film like degradation like adding grain, softening etc. just with that clean 4K digital aesthetic of RED camera (seen on milk girlz)?

[tj williams]

On other electronic cameras the gradiations of color and tone have less steps across the range, than film. I think this is true of even 14bit cameras. I saw this demonstrated.

They took a frame of flesh tones from someones cheek blew it up, in photoshop(I think), we were looking at an HD monitor. Looking at the gradiations from film origination. compared the same shot on (HDcam/Varicam/900HDX) (I'm not sure which) There was a clear difference.

I'm interested to know:

1. Why will the RED show more steps of gradiation like film since it uses basically the same technology as other electronic cameras? Of course the RED has more resolution but that is not going to add tonal steps?

2. What "degradation" steps in post will add gradiation steps?

[donatello b]

just guessing on tonal range

HDcam/varicam/900hvx are all 8 bit = 256 gradiation tones ..
10 bit i believe is approx 1000 tones ... and 12 bit i think is around 4000 shades ... most of the time 35mm is transferred to a 10 bit file so that would be comparing 1000 shades of tone to 256 ...

[Stephen Williams]

just guessing on tonal range
... most of the time 35mm is transferred to a 10 bit file so that would be comparing 1000 shades of tone to 256 ...

Hi Donatello,

Assuming the film is graded and not a technical transfer the 1024 shades from 10 bit are all useful ones, if it's a Log scan then it's about the same dynamic range as 12 bit lin. (a scan is usually ungraded).

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

Yup, 12bit data, properly processed should produce more shades than the eye can see and you'd not see banding at all. Half the problem with traditional video is your colour decisions are burned in, in camera, and if you get them wrong, you've got to colour correct and that's on data-reduced data, and that's never fun. I've certainly not seen any banding in all the RED images I've worked on.

Also, video cameras tend to have agressive knees, and these can really screw skin tones if skin exposure lands in the range of the knee.

Graeme

[Dave Cooper]

Also, video cameras tend to have agressive knees, and these can really screw skin tones if skin exposure lands in the range of the knee.

No banding would be great but what exactly do you mean by "aggressive knees"?

[Graeme Nattress]

A "knee" is a highlight compression curve. An Agressive knee is one which is too strong....

Graeme

[wshultz]

Someone gave me an agressive knee once. I'd like to forget it.