Lens Control

[Jiri Bakala]

When the camera is used with an EFP/ENG type of lens that includes zoom rocker, start/stop button and other electronic controls, is there any way of plugging the standard lens (Fujinon/Canon, etc.) connector to the camera? If yes, would there be full funcionality?

[Martin Drew]

There is a lens connector which will bring power to the lens and accept the start/stop control. The automatic iris won't work though because there is no iris control from the camera. Zoom rocker will work fine and any demand plugged into the lens should work too. So there won't be full functionality, but the lack of auto iris shouldn't be a huge issue for most applications.

M

[Brainstorm]

There is a lens connector which will bring power to the lens and accept the start/stop control. The automatic iris won't work though because there is no iris control from the camera. Zoom rocker will work fine and any demand plugged into the lens should work too. So there won't be full functionality, but the lack of auto iris shouldn't be a huge issue for most applications.

M

I posted this elsewhere but it's worth repeating on this specific thread:

"I'd also LOVE to see the option of a servo-controlled zoom lens for RED that doesn't require stepping down to a 2/3" B4 HD broadcast lens (plus a $4000+ optical adapter) and the resultant loss of resolution that produces (limitation of no greater than 1080P, loss of more than 2 stops in aperture).

Documentary shooters want the option of getting the full blast of the Mysterium Sensor too... but they can't have somebody running alongside to pull focus as they manually zoom a 35mm lens while trying point in the right direction as they chase after the unscripted chaos of the real world!"

Having a good servo-controlled lens available for RED that would allow for full 4K shooting sure would help make it as universal and it could/should be!

[Billy Summers]

Documentary shooters want the option of getting the full blast of the Mysterium Sensor too... but they can't have somebody running alongside to pull focus as they manually zoom a 35mm lens while trying point in the right direction as they chase after the unscripted chaos of the real world!"

LOL, good point.

That was Awesome!:biggrin:

[Martin Drew]

You could of course mount a zoom motor on a geared lens and use a controller like a microforce mounted on to RedRails. That would give you servo zoom. And it wouldn't be as kludgy as my description probably sounds. Oppenheimer do a holder for the Microforce to allow you to do this. Visual Products have a second hand one listed: http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=885&Cat=3&Cat2=45 (http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=885&Cat=3&Cat2=45)

M

[Jiri Bakala]

Great, thanks.

[Brainstorm]

You could of course mount a zoom motor on a geared lens and use a controller like a microforce mounted on to RedRails. That would give you servo zoom. And it wouldn't be as kludgy as my description probably sounds. Oppenheimer do a holder for the Microforce to allow you to do this. Visual Products have a second hand one listed: http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=885&Cat=3&Cat2=45 (http://www.visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=885&Cat=3&Cat2=45)

M

Thanks for the suggestion Martin.

A set-up like that would really slow you down when you need to change lenses wouldn't it? It appears a lot of fiddling would be required. I also worry about the durability and reliability of such a set-up when you're shooting docos "in the wild". I'd need to look further into the whole idea before making any final judgment.

The other thing is, most doco camera men are used to operating Canon/Fujinon lenses with the good old "rocker" and I'm sure they'd operate the lens better if the servo control was in it's normal place. Like riding a bike, their '"zoom-hand thinking" has moved out of the cerebral cortex and into the brain stem!

[Stuart English]

Each to his own taste?

Reality is that at this time there are no 35mm lenses with zoom / rocker switches on them, only 2/3" B4 mount lenses.

So the two options are - place motors and an external actuator (like a Preston micro-force) onto a P/L mount cinema lens, or use an optical adaptor with a 2/3" B4 lens - which effectively limits you to 2K - but that's still better image resolution than 2/3" HD cameras.

As potential customers, your input to Canon and Fujinon, Cooke and Zeiss would be the best path forward if either of the above don't appeal. I honestly think though that most people will be pretty happy with the performance and convenience that they will get from either of the first two options.

[Brainstorm]

Thanks for your input Stuart. At least I can now be sure that these are the only two options and do the necessary investigation to work out which solution is best for the type of productions I'd like to use a RED on.

Regards
Glenn (Brainstorm)

[tj williams]

1. Stuart does the RED basic body have the cool little rosette on the side which allows the mounting of the Oppenheimer handle as shown in the picture? Cage seems a little self defeating here for a doco guy? Also the use of the micro-force is a way different feel from the rocker, my feeling is that the Oppy part works much better on the pan handle.

2. Brainstorm. My HD lens in B mount is about 20X 2/3" In super 16 size with the windowed sensor and Abakus 132 I can shoot 2K in Doco. mode. Also I can use the doubler when needed. This is equivalent to a 40 to one 35mm zoom. There is just no optical way in heck that you can carry something like that even if it was available! Yes I know a doubler between the body and the lens, but everything will have changed while you change the lens off to put it in. The quick lever doubler is really handy so many times in Doc. work.

Also remember we are pulling focus ourselves by eye. On 4K with 35m lens wide open... eh eh

The adapter in the S16mm size Abakus 132 is $3000 us. The $4000 adapter model 260 would adapt you to 35mm. So then you could use the 4K sensor, and your B4 lens, at the price of only 4K and some serious focus issues. I also think most of the HD lenses out there will show some quality issues when stretched over 4K on a 35mm size sensor. This needs a test! There have though been quality issues you could see in HD1080!

[Brainstorm]

1. I also think most of the HD lenses out there will show some quality issues when stretched over 4K on a 35mm size sensor. This needs a test! There have though been quality issues you could see in HD1080!

Exactly what I've just been by the local lens experts here in Sydney TJ. They're really excited by RED's specs, but they also say that until some new type of servo-driven HD lens that covers the area of the sensor is put on the market, RED (or any other equivalent) may not the best (and most cost-effective) option for shooting low-medium-budget indy cinema-docos that require "everyday" zoom control. I wish they were wrong, but I fear they are right. I know that RED is extraordinary value for what it offers, but the other bits needed to complete the system aren't: e.g. A Microforce zoom control system costs about 12-13 thousand $ here... then you still need to buy the lenses. If you go for a PL-B4 adapter, you can add another 5-6 grand plus a 2/3" B4 lens or two, then there are the rails, the cage, the cases, the data back-up system, the NLE machines to cut and handle 4K/2K data, etc, etc, etc.

It all starts adding up when you're working on a budget that's meant to be "low"!

[Priyesh P.]

A Microforce zoom control system costs about 12-13 thousand $ here...

Curt v. Badinski of Viewfactor Studios, who´s a regular poster here told me that their new LCS will be released at NAB this year - and if I understand, their 3 channel system comes at 3500 dollars.

[Martin Drew]

Are you sure Kalone. I seem to remember that Curt was pitching that at $5500 for the 3 channel and $3500 was for a single channel (still excellent VFM). If it is $3500 for 3 channels that will be stunning!

M

[Martin Drew]

Exactly what I've just been by the local lens experts here in Sydney TJ. They're really excited by RED's specs, but they also say that until some new type of servo-driven HD lens that covers the area of the sensor is put on the market, RED (or any other equivalent) may not the best (and most cost-effective) option for shooting low-medium-budget indy cinema-docos that require "everyday" zoom control. I wish they were wrong, but I fear they are right. I know that RED is extraordinary value for what it offers, but the other bits needed to complete the system aren't: e.g. A Microforce zoom control system costs about 12-13 thousand $ here... then you still need to buy the lenses. If you go for a PL-B4 adapter, you can add another 5-6 grand plus a 2/3" B4 lens or two, then there are the rails, the cage, the cases, the data back-up system, the NLE machines to cut and handle 4K/2K data, etc, etc, etc.

It all starts adding up when you're working on a budget that's meant to be "low"!

It depends what you are comparing it with. It is very tempting to see RedOne as only applicable to full on 4k film style production and then thinking in terms of the ancillary equipment costs necessary to achieve that. If instead you eschew 4k, opt for a B4 mount lens + adapter, then shoot and edit 2k the camera + kit will be far cheaper than an equivalent 2/3" XDCAM solution (which would be lower resolution and lower quality). There are other issues which might make XDCAM (for example) more appropriate to you but it isn't going to be down to cost.

Of course if you want to shoot and edit 4k and you want to have higher production values which requires more extensive grip then that is going to get expensive, but that is true whatever format you shoot. I don't think it is relevant to compare the cost of a B4 mount eng/efp lens + servo with a 4k appropriate lens + lens control. Look at the total system cost to achieve the same result as whatever other system you are considering.

M

[CVB]

Yes, we are going to be at NAB... you'll have to wait until then for more info :)

[Martin Drew]

Such a tease Curt :biggrin:

[Brainstorm]

It depends what you are comparing it with. It is very tempting to see RedOne as only applicable to full on 4k film style production and then thinking in terms of the ancillary equipment costs necessary to achieve that. If instead you eschew 4k, opt for a B4 mount lens + adapter, then shoot and edit 2k the camera + kit will be far cheaper than an equivalent 2/3" XDCAM solution (which would be lower resolution and lower quality). There are other issues which might make XDCAM (for example) more appropriate to you but it isn't going to be down to cost.

Of course if you want to shoot and edit 4k and you want to have higher production values which requires more extensive grip then that is going to get expensive, but that is true whatever format you shoot. I don't think it is relevant to compare the cost of a B4 mount eng/efp lens + servo with a 4k appropriate lens + lens control. Look at the total system cost to achieve the same result as whatever other system you are considering.

M


Hi Martin,

All the production values in the world don't make it any easier to raise finance for a "low-medium budget" doco. As well all know, getting any "risky" film funded is an uphill battle. I agree that RED is (theoretically) way ahead of the competition in a $ for $ shootout, but it's still not cheap by the time you add all the necessary equipment required to shoot and post-produce.

One of the local cine-hire places here in Sydney (they rent everything from Genesis, Vipers, Varicams and XDCams, plus everything else that goes with them) is watching RED with great interest, but they still reckon it will cost close to $100K to get a full RED system ready for a shoot here in Australia. That's well beyond the budget of most small indy doco makers who are trying to make their films on the smell of an oily rag.

Cheers
Brainstorm


P.S. I should add to my comments: I REALLY want RED to work for the sort of doco work I do! I'm very excited by this camera's potential and totally support Jim Jannard's team's extraordinary innovation. (I've also enjoyed wearing Oakley sunglasses and specs for years. Hell. I even had Oakley grips on my motocross bike when I was a kid!) I just have to find an affordable way to be able to use a RED on shoots where travelling with a focus puller is not an option. The camera is not the problem. It's the lack of (affordable) servo-zoomable 35mm lenses that's the issue for me.

[Ralph Oshiro]

A Microforce zoom control system costs about 12-13 thousand $ here... then you still need to buy the lenses. If you go for a PL-B4 adapter, you can add another 5-6 grand plus a 2/3" B4 lens or two . . .I didn't know Microforces were THAT much. Not to mock your post (or anyone with a REAL need for motorized zoom lenses), but doesn't that just "force" (most) of us shooting narrative drama to just shoot with fixed primes with lotsa ultra-cool dolly shots? For cinema purists, at least, the motorized zoom shot is by far the least "cinematic" anyway, yes?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Sorry, Brainstorm . . . just re-read your post! Certainly, documentary work would surely benefit from a motorized zoom lens. Surely, Microforce can't be the only game in town?

[Martin Drew]

Brainstorm

I think you're missing the point of my post. Sure you can spend a lot of money on a RedOne dream kit but you don't have to, you can "cut according to your cloth" that is what is so exciting about this camera. The body is so cheap that even if you add on the price of a b4 to PL adapter it will still cost you less than most other low low end professional kit. Sure you will still have to buy B4 lenses but that is true whatever camera you buy. It sound like you are arguing that even though the body is cheap the price of the total package will be "high end", but that doesn't have to be the case. What is your budget for camera + lens? what alternatives to RedOne are you considering? maybe that would make it easier, we could actually put figures to all this and compare the options. You spoke about having to buy a NLE that can handle 4K/2K, do you need 4K? very few top end feature films go through a 4K scan let alone print at the moment. For editing you would probably want to use standard definition anyway.



Ralph

There are many options other than the microforce for zoom control, you could look at the Bar-Tech Buz (http://webpages.charter.net/bartech/buz.html) which allows you to interface a conventional video zoom demand to a lens zoom motor. Also I saw a Cinema Products J-6 controller + motor (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330088415210&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12) on eBay recently which went for $500, but I would wait to see what Curt is going to announce at NAB, that sounds very interesting.

M

[Ralph Oshiro]

Ralph

There are many options other than the microforce for zoom control, you could look at the Bar-Tech Buz (http://webpages.charter.net/bartech/buz.html) which allows you to interface a conventional video zoom demand to a lens zoom motor. Also I saw a Cinema Products J-6 controller + motor (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330088415210&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12) on eBay recently which went for $500, but I would wait to see what Curt is going to announce at NAB, that sounds very interesting.

MGood to know--thanks! Ahh yes, the venerable J6 from CP! (I used to work at CP, the summer before I went to film school!)

[foveas]

As a low cost alternative, we are about to release a single channel wireless focus control based on R/C servo. All the info updated here:

www.foveas.com

We will have available too a wireless SD monitor (not huge format output, only 400 lines, but enough for video assisting the focus puller).

This system was thought to work with 35mm adapters, all feedback you can send will be sincerely welcome.

Regards,

Diego Galvez
diego [at] foveas [dot] com

[M Olsen]

I would have thought 2K would be enough for most Doco and programming at this stage. Consider a S16 Zoom and use a motor on the Red Rail and if hand held adapt the motor controller to be one of the handgrips. I did this on ARRI 16 SR 2 and 3's when zooms were called for in H\H mode.

[Jaime Vallés]

Diego, that sounds like a great product you have there. Any word on pricing yet?

[foveas]

Diego, that sounds like a great product you have there. Any word on pricing yet?

Hola Jaime,

thanks for your interest!

We are still setting the price for the Remote follow focus, we have set a poll where you can have an idea of the final price... of course, you are welcome to participate :biggrin:

http://www.foveas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5

As for the wireless monitor, we will do our best to keep it under the $1000 barrier, but it will depend finally on the monitor chosen, details on the Rx/Tx system... still working on it... :weight_lift:

Regards,

Diego Gálvez
diego [at] foveas [dot] com

[tj williams]

Hi Brainstorm, I really can't understand your need for a full 4K workflow to shoot docs. Dig intermediate on Spiderman was 2K. As an example here is a paste up I did of how I'm gonna configure my RED for doco. Using our 20X HD lens with full zoom control. Some folk may not want the light weigh follow focus for this use but it's what I'm used to. Even this lens will be a little front heavy and need to push the batts/mag out back on the rail more than is shown. Any significant 35mm zoom which had this range and doubler would be almost twice as large!! Hey you just can't beat the rules of physics!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/751_1173156873.jpg

[Kyle Mallory]

TJ.... Stop that! Seeing a mockup of RED with lens, matte-box, brow and all that stuff is too much for me to handle! It's too soon!!! Don't do it again! :)

[Evin Grant]

For all you still lens users...
http://www.evingrant.com/Redkit.jpg

[Andrew M.]

For all you still lens users...

Looks like real!! How did you do it ???
Too bad that it will not float...
Need Iris control.
You could put motorized focus as a one of the handles.

[S. Um]

[QUOTE=Andrew;15239]Need Iris control.
QUOTE]

Needs iris control AND zoom control. But I guess that's what your hand is for.

[Brainstorm]

Hi Evin,

Your rendering of a fully-rigged RED has just notched my already problematic techno-lust up another notch!

Quick question:

I'm interested in using the Nikon 17-35mm f2.8 AFS as a general purpose lens for "on-the-fly" doco work (more like Borat than Baraka!). Is there anything you know about this lens that indicates it would not be suited to use with an after-market servo-driven zoom controller like the Preston MicroForce, a re-engineered Fujinon/Canon servo or something similar?


Cheers
Brainstorm

[Andrew M.]

[Needs iris control AND zoom control. But I guess that's what your hand is for.

Once you take it under water you use hands to swim:-)

[tj williams]

Evin love the picture!!! Your skill at photoshop obviously exceeds my dabling!!!!
These together show the camera as I want it. eng/doco and cine production.
If only you had a long eyepiece and rod...... ooops Sorry I just couldn't help myself....

Hope to see a RED at NAB set up just like that!!!

[Andrew M.]

Evin love the picture!!! Your skill at photoshop obviously exceeds my dabling!!!!
These together show the camera as I want it. eng/doco and cine production.
If only you had a long eyepiece and rod...... ooops Sorry I just couldn't help myself....

TJ, forgive me for the question, I was monitoring your discussion about EVF mount and all other posts, but where do you put the rod when you have it shoulder mounted camera?
You are talking tripod mount, is that right?

[Finner]

Hi Evin,
I'm interested in using the Nikon 17-35mm f2.8 AFS as a general purpose lens for "on-the-fly" doco work (more like Borat than Baraka!). Is there anything you know about this lens that indicates it would not be suited to use with an after-market servo-driven zoom controller like the Preston MicroForce, a re-engineered Fujinon/Canon servo or something similar?


The 17-35 is a very very short zoom throw and I feel you will find spending a bunch of money on a zoom servo to be a total waste of money. If you feel you need to have a usable power zoom the nikon is the wrong lens for you as it would be more suitable as a variable prime.



TJ,

I'm guessing with the image you put together of the camera you now see how the red is not that far off the design of a typical camera. When you were complaining before about how weird and different the red was in design from other cameras and a bunch of us were saying no it isn't I had always had a picture in my head of the camera like you and Evin mocked up. I feel you can probably see now why a bunch of us were disagreeing with you.

[Brainstorm]

Thanks Finner. I'm still trying to identify a 35mm zoom that's suitable for general doco work, that will be suited to have servo-control added, and that won't cost an arm and a leg*. Have you got any suggestions?

(*I've already sold one of each and my replacement kidney is on back-order. My carbon-fiber Zimmer frame that will assist one-legged/armed shooting is currently under development. I'm taking reservations for delivery in 2012.)

[chuck colburn]

For all you still lens users...
http://www.evingrant.com/Redkit.jpg

Evin!

Nice CG work.
Of course if that's a carbon fibre piece as part of the lens mount that won't do as CF does eventually begin to rot from UV expouser unless it is periodicaly coated with a anti UV coating.
But I'm sure Red knows this.

Chuck

[tj williams]

Finner, these renderings (esp. Evins much more professional one) are totally what RED should have been showing on their photo tour from day 1. I still can't imagine myself ever wanting to mount the camera in a cage, put the lcd on top as a viewfinder etc. have a glow come out of the pl mount, all this seems to just make it big heavy and un-functional. Form does after all follow function.

Love the detail in Evin's short vf mount ball mount to allow vf spin in any direction, I hope it also allows a slide forward and backward.

Yes of course a support rod and longer vf are for tripod/dolly work.

Things I'd like in Evins Accessory pack...

Evin is this like actual design or another fantasy design like mine?

Nice if the hand grips could swing forward to match the angle of a persons hands.

Shoulder pad which adjusts nicely forward backward on the rails, will it pull of with helicopter pins for quick transfer to head mounting?

What happens to the handle mounts which seem to hang down below the camera base will they interfere with fluid/wheel head mounting?

Where does the little wire come out and where is the receiver box for the Third party remote lens control?

[Finner]

Thanks Finner. I'm still trying to identify a 35mm zoom that's suitable for general doco work, that will be suited to have servo-control added, and that won't cost an arm and a leg*. Have you got any suggestions?


A used 16mm zoom or HD lens would be one of the better choices for what you want. If you don't mind hauling around and changing lenses the nikons would work well. In my opinion other then slap zooms for slow mo effects the zoom is way over used by shooters and make productions look low end. I find a well choosen prime shot much nicer then zoom after zoom.

[Brainstorm]

A used 16mm zoom or HD lens would be one of the better choices for what you want. If you don't mind hauling around and changing lenses the nikons would work well. In my opinion other then slap zooms for slow mo effects the zoom is way over used by shooters and make productions look low end. I find a well choosen prime shot much nicer then zoom after zoom.

I agree that films with a minimal amount of zooming look a lot classier than those packed with zooms, but I would like my shooters to have the option (I'm a producer/director myself). I've spoken to a couple of the doco cameraman that I like working with and none of them are keen to try controlling zoom and iris manually on fast-paced "shoot-the-action-as-it-happens" type of shoots. We all know, many things only happen once on docos... and if you blow the shot, that's that!


16mm or 2/3" HD lens are obviously reasonable options, but I'd like to be able to shoot 4K just like everybody else (even if I output 1080p Redcode)! That's why I'm doggedly looking for a servo-rocker-zoom 35mm solution.

[Finner]

I personally don't see a red being the best choice for fast paced doco stuff. It just does not seem like the best tool for that job. For me it would be like driving a ferrari in a 50km/hr city. You will get lots of looks it will be kind of fun but a toyota would be a lot more comfortable and easier to get the job done.

[Brainstorm]

I personally don't see a red being the best choice for fast paced doco stuff. It just does not seem like the best tool for that job. For me it would be like driving a ferrari in a 50km/hr city. You will get lots of looks it will be kind of fun but a toyota would be a lot more comfortable and easier to get the job done.


Oh! I'm so bored with the old Toyota!!! I want to hit the highway in a shiny new machine that goes at 4K :-)

P.S. They won't allow me into the cark park at the cinema-doco club in a Toyota. The concierge says I'll have to leave it on the street.

[Finner]

I have given some thought lately to deeper depth of field for the run and gun corporate shots. I think running with a wide lens like the 17-35 and setting the camera at a very high asa setting will allow me to set the lens at a t-16 or so which should help a lot.

Anyones thoughts on if they feel this would be a bad idea and why would be helpful.

[chuck colburn]

Finner,

I'm sure you know that stopping that lens down to f16 you are in the zone of diffraction limitation.

Chuck

[Brainstorm]

I have given some thought lately to deeper depth of field for the run and gun corporate shots. I think running with a wide lens like the 17-35 and setting the camera at a very high asa setting will allow me to set the lens at a t-16 or so which should help a lot.

Anyones thoughts on if they feel this would be a bad idea and why would be helpful.

Versatility is the thing I'm after Finner. I need a lens that offers fast control for spur-of-moment "unscripted" events, but I'd also like the shallow DOF look for set-up shots. Obviously they can help give a doco a classy look that's beyond the scope of most 2/3" HD cameras.

The reason I keep persisting with my hope of finding a RED solution is that it's been written about as "flexible and powerful enough for everybody from the high-end filmmaker, to, believe it or not, the wedding videographer" (that was in Broadcast News just last week; 'RED Digital Cinema: A Pre-NAB 2007 Update').

I've been making docos for the like of Discovery Channel for quite a few years, and I'm used to a standard that's far above the average "wedding videographer", but I'm currently trying to raise a budget for an independent cinema doco (with "risky" & controversial content) , and that keeps me out of the "high-end filmmaker" arena.

I hoped RED would be the solution to getting the best of both worlds! It's way cheaper than any Ferrari, outperforms any Toyota (and most Lamborghinis & Maseratis)... but I'd just like the option of a semi-automatic gearbox, that's all.

[Finner]

ya chuck I know I would be loseing the sweet spot of the lens but even if I only went t-8 I believe it would help a lot to get more focus for the shot if needed.

[chuck colburn]

Yes you would!

[tj williams]

Brainstorm check out the abakus site, they offer a converter of HD lenses to 35mm. This would get you the dof you want in a lens you could actually hand hold. It's a little spendy at 4K but if you are shooting Disc. etc then you have the day rate to afford it.

[Brainstorm]

Brainstorm check out the abakus site, they offer a converter of HD lenses to 35mm. This would get you the dof you want in a lens you could actually hand hold. It's a little spendy at 4K but if you are shooting Disc. etc then you have the day rate to afford it.

Thanks TJ. I've already looked at the Abakus site. By the time you add the adapter to a regular and a wide 2/3" HD Lens plus camera, cage, back-up drives, high speed on-the-road-laptop (etc, etc, etc!), it's all starting to become a bit expensive.

I'm trying to work out how to put together a "high performance" kit to shoot an independent cinema doco on a tight budget (not another Discovery doco)... and all these extra elements are pushing my dream of shooting 4K (or even 2K for that matter) over the horizon!