To Jim - don't forget your initial dream (just in case)

[Medavoym]

Hello Jim,

As you are very close to disclosing the new prices for RED ONE, lenses and other accessories, allow me to saw just one thing, if it's ok.

Please do not forget what your aim and dream was from the very beginning of this superb entreprise. You wanted to bring a very cheap, 4K camera to the regular filmmaker.

Lately I've been hearing a lot about new updated prices, the advantages of the reservation holders and so on. Well, I hope you won't make the camera more expensive all of a sudden, or come up with prices that the normal filmmaker could not afford.

Now, I understand that the people who gave you more than a million dollars in reservation money need to be SOMEHOW rewarded. I'm the first to admit that. They took on a gamble, and they will win after NAB. But there are other persons (such as myself, and so many others) who completely trusted the project from the very beginning, but didn't have the money to put down the $1,000. They so wanted to, they just couldn't. They are hoping that in 1, 2 years they will be able to raise enough money to buy the camera and make their films.

It is for them, in my opinion, that you wanted to bring this affordable camera for in the first place, not for the rental houses that put down 4-5 reservations. If you want to make that dream come true, I hope you will not raise the price for the camera.

All the best and good luck on the last 100 meters as they say!

G.

[jbeale]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the closest competitors to RED are in the ballpark of 50 to $100k. If so, Red would arguably be a bargain at a much higher price than what's been announced to date. Jim has hinted that the "better deal" for the early birds had to do with throwing in additional accessories or features rather than adjusting the base price, but time will tell.

I'd love to own one but I can't swing even the current price. Maybe there is a chance for me to get one used, once RED TWO comes out. Of course, the problem there is all the talk about modular upgrades and not being obsolete for 20 years!

[Ivan G]

Well I can understand what your saying. But.... Let's just say the camera doubled in price. Were just assuming so no one go berserk. A camera that shoots 4k just under $40,000 is unheard of and for $17,500 it's a steal. I have been preaching this camera since I heard about it last year and have been telling all my video buddies to jump on it. None of them listened to me. I even explained to them that the reservations were 100% refundable. It might have been a gamble when the first round of reservations opened up but the second time I had to reserve one. That's why I am 1237 in line. Although I am very curious to see what would happen if there was a 3rd round. I'm in no way suggesting that RED bump the price. But if it happens..... o well.... It's a masterpiece

[Petr Dvorak]

1st post from Medavoym

[Medavoym]

Just to clarify, this is my first post here (that is why I registered) but I'm also registered over at DVXUser where I have lots (with the same username).

[Rick Darge]

55th Post from Hawaj

[Joe Carney]

I think what will take it over the top is that relatively affordable zoom lens coming out later for under 10K. Assuming it makes great pictures, then and only the real WOW starts. hehehe.

[Adrian Correia]

I know Medavoym is saying though...it is difficult to just give up a thousand dollars...that being said...sometimes you have to make sacrifices. There has been many, and I mean many, times this year I wish I had that money back in my bank account. I sacrificed not having an HD camera this year (held off on the HVX), and that certainly cost me a job or two, but now I have the chance to get this camera and put myself, and my reel, onto a higher plane. I know nothing about anyone on this board practically, but for those thinking about buying a Red....now is a time to prioritize what you really want in your life and what you want to do. Yes, I think this camera can be that type of life-changing tool in the hands of a person who really wants to be a shooter.

[Michael Schrengohst]

89th post from rgdfilmsRED

[Steve Sherrick]

Adrian, nice work man. Really liked that sample reel. We should chat some time, seeing we're practically neighbors.

Steve

[Ace]

91st post from Red Guy

IMVHO, one route that would effectively raise prices is if RED decides to adopt a localised distributor model. i.e Introducing a middleman. Right now RED's production numbers are low enough for them to be able to offer a direct from manufacturer consumer model, but when it comes to expansion, the company has to do what its gotta do to expand. (E.G your local video/photography store stocking 10 retail red's). But then again, maybe its got nothing to do with production numbers, afterall look at how Apple handles a direct to consumer business model. Apple has been truly revolutionary in this sense. (Well.. Dell started it.. But Apple lets you engrave stuff on your ipod. How cool is that)

[Don Woods]

91 post from RED Guy

[Ace]

210st post from IMG

[Darren Orange]

Okay on the price change subject....

If the price was to go up after the people who have theirs reserved that would mean that they would not only be selling about 1500 cameras at the price of 17.5K. If the price went up then that would mean that they would have to be losing money on the cameras. If sold 1500 cameras with a loss of lets say 100 dollars each they would lose.....150K

That being said I really doubt that the camera is losing money, if it would be they should raise the price now and tell people they can have their money back plus the extra 10%. Because in the end that would be the better choice. Now if they raise prices because its not making "enough" money thats different. A person like the one who is running the show over at RED should not care about that. So long as the company just stays positive in time 5 years it will take over the market. So logic says stay cheap take over win... theres no logical reason why the price would go up.....if anything the camera would get cheaper.....based upon supply and demand. Thats my two sense, theres no reason the price should increase unless someone wrote a poor plan. And as they have been honest with us so far hiding a price increase would only lose them their following like us, those who don't have a reservation, those future red owners. Money is not the point being remembered is and I think RED is going to get that job done, its the color of the future....

remember John Z Delorean with his sports care the DMC-12 that was supposed to cost 12 Grand and when it came out it costs 25K+......Look what happened there, RED won't follow those tracks....

[Don Woods]

Acehole I didn't even see it on the top of your post sorry

AceHole... 171

[Ace]

Heh

IMG 211

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi & welcome Madawoym! -;)

Just to put things in perspective...

Have you checked the price on a digibeta deck (SD-broadcast standard) - not a camera but neccesary companion to make things work. Here in Norway, that clocked in at about 55.000$ recently when I did a check.

Then you'd still need camera and lenses, so to speak -;)

About a year ago I was quoted about 390.000$ for a complete Varicam 720p workflow. (Camera, lense, viewfinder, AJ-1200 deck and format converter for PAL to utilitize the variable frame rates)


The 17.500 + 9.500 + 3-5 magazines @ 1000$ each is quite in a different league.

Then add Nattress compression routine & workflow + AJA post knowledge about budget relyable post workflow and you sort of have to pinch yourself.

This gives Red a nice little headroom to move in when it comes to pop up the price, and still be "a steal".

Though, I too hope they don't quadruple or tenfold the price anytime soon...

Gunleik

[Damien Molineaux]

51st post from earthling

[Sandman]

Hey guys, just wanted to say hello to everyone, first timer here, I promise to grow old with all of you Red fans.
I wanted to ask if you reserve Red can you pay whenever or is there a set date? So like if I reserve one to keep that low price option available, assuming the price stays the same no matter what happens if your a reservee, I could take a year or two to raise the balance.
In the end though, if it takes you that long to raise the $17,500 and then you have to start all over again for the lens, cage, vf, magazines and so on, not including the editing solution you'll have to purchase in order to work with this investment... well, all I can say is maybe it's just not a realistic venture for some of us. Then again, sometimes it's the things which are hopeless that are worth fighting for.
Cheers everyone!

[Manfred Lopez]

Hey guys, just wanted to say hello to everyone, first timer here...
...I wanted to ask if you reserve Red...

Hi Sandman, welcome to redland.

Regarding your question: Red reservations are closed for now. The next time you'll be able to reserve one will be with the "new" permanent price.

[Sam Druckerman]

I posted a similar reply on DVinfo last year regarding the price of Red going up, and I still feel the same as I did then.

When you look at state of the U.S. economy it's hard to imagine anything Not going up in price. Because of several reasons......

1st. The war for better or worse has caused the U.S. to become a debtor nation. The amount of the national debt is staggering. That's one reason why the U.S. dollar is weak in the world economy, and getting weaker everyday. Everything we buy from other countries costs us more than it used to.

2nd. In the last few years the US has experience record breaking fuel cost. This impacts the costs of everything that requires transportation/shipping. Historically, that's always been the foundation for inflation.

3rd. Last year, 2006 .... the people of the U.S. as a nation had the lowest % of savings Ever, with the exception of the year of the Great Depression. The amount of money the people in the U.S. have in savings is actually going down. The amount of personal debt is rising. People are living off of credit cards. This is another reason the U.S. dollar is weak.

I could go on... but it's just to depressing. The point I'm trying to make is Red probably has to out source some things out of the country to assemble the camera.

Yes, I'm sorry to say the U.S. economy is in very bad shape. So IMVHO it's not a question of "If the price of Red will go up", but rather "How could it not?".

I'd like to believe I'm wrong about the U.S. economy, Let's all hope I am.

That said, I want to add that many people have become wealthy in hard times. I think that courage and foresight are often rewarded. And that's why I believe an investment in a tool like the Red is a smart choice.

And even if Red goes up 10 to 20%, it would still be a fantastic bargain and a great investment for everyone, especially for those of us in the U.S., who potentially may face some tough times ahead.

Just 19 posts from Sam? What have I been doing with all my time?

[jeremie]

5th post of me !

[Simon Dean]

I could have afforded the $1000 easily, but I can't realistically afford a Red workflow at the moment (Body, lenses, better machine etc.). I too have been following it and think it is awesome. I think Medavoym is expressing hopes and dreams, which we all have. I am hoping that I can afford it in a year or so and before then to rent - but meanwhile I'll just get on with what I have.

Realistically Jim has to make a business of this and these are already crazy prices (Even with an increase I can't imagine much money is being made on the cam). But we should still hope and dream - otherwise Red wouldn't ever have come to life - Medavoym is just hoping...no harm in that.

[James T Mather]

I imagine the Red will go up for a number of reasons -

1. If it delivers even 90% of what it is promising, it is, according to current market-value for pro products, massively under-priced anyway.

2. The development process of any product is scheduled like a film shoot - Generally on the basis "if nothing goes wrong" or "if nothing turns out to be more difficult/time consuming than we thought" etc - But here's the thing - It always does. Films rarely come in under-budget without compromise - so too with something as complex as the Red camera. In short, it cost more to develop. Something this complicated, requiring innovation in so many areas, certainly had it's stumbling blocks and budget changes. You can't make Titanic for $1.98c. Just ask Jim Cameron.

Therefore the price has to change. Jim can't revolutionize motion cameras and go poor in the process. Why should he?

It's fair that people who plunked down a grand on the understanding that they were taking a dice roll on an idea should be charged what they agreed to - on the predetermination that the specs might/would change etc - the one constant has remained the price. You can't expect people to pay for something blind if they don't know the cost. Fair's fair. Jim's sticking to the deal price-wise and fair play to him on that.

Now it seems, to Jim's credit he seems like he's going to deliver on the tech specs too - which, given the promise, had about as much chance as a lowly Philadelphia Heavyweight of winning the World Boxing title. So to Jim and Red - Yo Adrian, looks like ya did it. :weight_lift:

One thing people seem to be forgetting forgetting is that Red has to function as a business also. http://www.msnpro.com/cartoon/15.gif Some of these things are beyond Jim's control. Things simply cost what they cost - and even were the price to double - it's still an amazing deal.

Also BTW - this was mentioned earlier


the people who gave you more than a million dollars

Is this accurate? - not according to my maths - but i might be misinformed on things.

[Manfred Lopez]

Also BTW - this was mentioned earlier


Is this accurate? - not according to my maths - but i might be misinformed on things.

1,455 reservations x $1,000 = $1,455,000

[James T Mather]

Of course! I keep thinking (and telling people) its a hundred reservations - twat http://www.msnpro.com/smiley/dumb.gif- Maybe Jim should just split with the loot. http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

J.

[Ben Feuer]

Somehow I don't really think Jim is hurting for a million and a half dollars.

As for economics; while the unexpected does often happen in the course of production, it's actually fairly unusual (in my experience) for the price of an item to go up before it hits the market. I think companies are pretty good at compensating for those types of expenses.

Although it is possible that the "reward" to reservation holders will be a higher price for everyone else...I personally don't believe that is it.

[James T Mather]

Steady penfever, didn't mean to actually incite Mr. Jannard to make a run for Tijuana. (humour is difficult to communicate on threads I find).

I was rather suggesting that given the "breaking new ground" aspects of the project that certain things might have not come to light until later in the process and this may have impacted costs - data throughput issues, faster drive requirements, software hiccups etc. I'm sure sony know what knocking out another Digibeta will cost them as they've been making them for years - the process has evolved somewhat - RED is making something "new" and is also a company forming to do this. Reminds me of early ILM - no-one really knew how to do what Lucas and Dykstra were proposing (motion control) - it was new and conceptual - as a result the budget swelled. Years later, it's commonplace to use motion control. Now it's predictable.


t's actually fairly unusual (in my experience) for the price of an item to go up before it hits the market

You might well be right - and it would be good if it didn't - but is it also unusual to do the whole reservation at the conceptual stage too (or not? I'm assuming) -

Perhaps the benefit to res holders is ahead of time reservation on new gear releases? As now with the camera?

[Priyesh P.]

don´t understand what all of you´re talking about, Jim already said on dvxuser ( I think ) that the price is likely to stay at 17.500 in 2007. And it looks like it´s going to be raised next year.

[Andrew M.]

You might well be right - and it would be good if it didn't - but is it also unusual to do the whole reservation at the conceptual stage too (or not? I'm assuming)

I don’t think Jannard really needed $1000 to start the project.
In the size of the project like this 1.5M is a peanuts budget.
It was brilliant idea however to weight the need of the market, at 1K level of commitment. This may get to the case study books of MBA students one day.
We are in proof of concept stage now and there is long way before the RED becomes mature products.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

its funny.. all the res holders including myself.. are very pessimistic about the price of red.. but thats because we grabbed onto the train while it was just leaving the station. rightfully so, we deserve some sort of "believers" pass into the parley gates of jannard red heaven. I know were getting hooked up with additional accessories for less or included.. but as I personally look at it.. 17k for 4k is ridiculously amazing. Even if Red did go up in price it would still take over the film making world. I defiantly would say reds price will NOT drop! even if current electronic trends drop in time.. I think red has reached its drop point from the start.. Id say this would be the price of any 4k camera in 7-10 years! with that said the camera should in theory start at 40-50k and that would be a deal!

[Andrew M.]

The camera was built with the modularity in mind.
Modularity entitles two things among many, easy upgrade/replacement of the modules and ability to configure camera from simple wedding videographer job to full blown cinematographer work. Price will be always set by market forces, not Jannard.
However, if you want easy entry in to the business and you need some hardware, always look for modular design, and RED is the one. Any RED configuration allowing wedding jobs should be priced at the low end and any camera configuration allowing full blown movie making jobs should be priced at the top end.
Proper configuration could be accomplished not only by installing a proper modules, like high speed interface, or powerful DSP but also by disabling certain features in the firmware.
The hardware cost of the camera is just a very small fraction of the total cost. The most money will be spent on the R&D and the engineering.
So limiting output of the camera to 1080p 30f only, will give you nice wedding camera at the bottom price of $17.5K, however knowing that this 1080p was downresed from 4K sensor it is not bad at all. Once you get bigger project you just buy enable option to 2K 60p for $15K and here you go, broadcast camera in blink of the eye.
Hey, you can even rent 4K enable option for two days for $1,500 by buying 4K 60p 48 hours lasting upgrade straight from RED headquarters or a rental place…..

[Michael Schrengohst]

How many of naysayers are saying to themselves now s**t!! I should have reserved a RED!!

[Nick Shaw]

Proper configuration could be accomplished not only by installing a proper modules, like high speed interface, or powerful DSP but also by disabling certain features in the firmware.
The hardware cost of the camera is just a very small fraction of the total cost. The most money will be spent on the R&D and the engineering.
So limiting output of the camera to 1080p 30f only, will give you nice wedding camera at the bottom price of $17.5K, however knowing that this 1080p was downresed from 4K sensor it is not bad at all. Once you get bigger project you just buy enable option to 2K 60p for $15K and here you go, broadcast camera in blink of the eye.
Hey, you can even rent 4K option for two days for $1,500 by buying 4K 60p 48 hours upgrade straight from RED headquarters or a rental place…..

RED have said previously that it is not their intention to create an artificially stratified market by software disabling features in the camera. Of course the price of a camera package can vary hugely, depending on what accessories you buy, either from RED or third parties. But the core camera body will be equally capable for every purchaser. It's sufficiently well priced that it's affordable for even those who don't need all the functionality. And realistically, how many of us are really going to be finishing projects in 4k in the near future?

[donatello b]

i don't think there will be future "reservation" - i think at NAB it moves to "place a order" ....
RED has stated they will hold the 17,500 price ..
now lets pretend that it includes LCD, one of the ports on side and another accessory - again guessing, in the future the price remains the same but doesn't include one or all of those accessories ??

IMO RED will get the dream alive and offer the best affordable solutions/accessories our declining $$ can buy ( since 2000 i think it has lost 40% against euro = the high price on zeiss-cooke lens )

looking forward to the accessory/price list in few weeks and of course seeing/hearing REDS solutions at NAB ....

[Darren Orange]

Please raise your hand if you "WANT" to pay more then what he has currently said it will be selling for....IF you dont want to pay more then, I ask why tell him he can charge more and still be a great deal. The price of the camera is awesome massive props for it. Keep in mind last time I checked Jim is a Billionare, about 480th somthing in the world. Money is not his game, hes been there done that, now he wants to change the world, a camera like this at this price will, but a camera like this near the price of a sony 900, would be in my consideration the next step and nothing speical.

[Andrew M.]

RED have said previously that it is not their intention to create an artificially stratified market by software disabling features in the camera. Of course the price of a camera package can vary hugely, depending on what accessories you buy, either from RED or third parties. But the core camera body will be equally capable for every purchaser. It's sufficiently well priced that it's affordable for even those who don't need all the functionality. And realistically, how many of us are really going to be finishing projects in 4k in the near future?

It will be not fair to ask wedding videographer to pay 4K R&D development cost share of 4K flow for cinematographer. It is nobody’s fault that camera is so flexible that can do both.
As I said before, market forces will set the price, wedding guy can pay only this much and multi million dollar film can spend bit more, agree?
Camera is good for both markets so you can sell to either market or only one, but why to restrict yourself? Sony prefers to make highly specialized product for each market.
If you have production in million of units it is correct way to do since you do want to maximize your profits. I think RED is positioning itself where there is a big market vacuum, overlooked by big companies.

[jbeale]

> ...configure camera from simple wedding videography job...

I've been following the RED story for about a year now, I've been fascinated by it technically. This camera is clearly a big step forward and it looks to be perfect for indie cinema applications. That said, I'd like to hear from anyone now in the wedding business who seriously thinks RED is well suited for wedding videography from any perspective- either operationally when shooting, in the workflow, or as a dollars-and-cents business case.

Right now the wedding market is only just beginning to move from SD to HD, where "HD" means HDV cameras recording 1080i, and even then delivery is almost always SD DVD. Wedding videos are not projected in theaters. Most brides in my area don't want to spend more than $1500 on their whole wedding video. They are now starting to ask about HD because it's a buzzword they've heard, but then when we discuss it, almost none of them have HD playback capability of any kind.

[Finner]

A red would be really a pain to use for weddings. It would be like using an ocean liner as the boat for fishing in your local pond. It will work but why go through all the trouble?

[Andrew M.]

Right now the wedding market is only just beginning to move from SD to HD, where "HD" means HDV cameras recording 1080i, and even then delivery is almost always SD DVD.

I think we are talking future here. In spite that there will be many of us using RED this year, the mass production in different configs will probably start in 2009
By then I think market will change considerably.

[Andrew M.]

A red would be really a pain to use for weddings. It would be like using an ocean liner as the boat for fishing in your local pond. It will work but why go through all the trouble?

Local guy here is using SONY 950 for wedding that are requested in HD (18 lb)
and post is real pain. With RED, he said, it will be like making passport photos now.

[Ivan G]

Wedding video on average is say around $1500. What in the hell would a wedding videographer charge when he shoots with the RED nearly investing 30k. Now unless your shooting movie star weddings and getting some some serious cash. Then go right ahead.

[Rick Darge]

I don't shoot them that often anymore but if I get my Red by early July, I'll be shooting Eva Longoria in 4k in Paris. That should be pretty cool.. Oterhwise it will be the HVX+Brevis

[Ivan G]

There you go!!! Now I can see RED at that wedding!!

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Please do not forget what your aim and dream was from the very beginning of this superb entreprise. You wanted to bring a very cheap, 4K camera to the regular filmmaker.

. . .

Now, I understand that the people who gave you more than a million dollars in reservation money need to be SOMEHOW rewarded. I'm the first to admit that. They took on a gamble, and they will win after NAB. But there are other persons (such as myself, and so many others) who completely trusted the project from the very beginning, but didn't have the money to put down the $1,000. They so wanted to, they just couldn't. They are hoping that in 1, 2 years they will be able to raise enough money to buy the camera and make their films.

It is for them, in my opinion, that you wanted to bring this affordable camera for in the first place, not for the rental houses that put down 4-5 reservations. If you want to make that dream come true, I hope you will not raise the price for the camera.G.

Excellent post, Medavoym. You sum up my hopes and thoughts precisely.

I have only posted in reference to RED once or twice, simply because, until a very recent inheritance, there was no way I could even dream of procuring the funds for a $25,000 camera package. Even with that, I'm still on the fence about whether I can truly afford it. But, as a long-time lurker and occasional poster at DVXUser, I've followed this project with great interest from the beginning. I've been wowed by the "out of the box", original thinking that Jim and his team possess and have remained quietly confident that, in the end, they will produce a stellar piece of equipment.

I still won't likely purchase one any time soon. But there remains hope that, within a couple of years, the inheritance money and the right combination of circumstances and opportunities will coincide to make owning this camera not only possible but practically justifiable for me. I would feel incredibly let down if, by then, the price substantially outgrows normal inflation.

Don't misunderstand. I do not feel that Jim "owes" me anything. I think he has every right to charge whatever he likes for the camera, beyond the price locked in for reservation holders. Someone who's had the vision, perseverance, and guts to do what he's done deserves tremendous rewards, financial or otherwise. But I, too, hope that he remains committed to the original goal of making film-studio quality acquisition moderately affordable to very humble, independent film makers.

On a different note, many here constantly tout the 4K resolution the camera offers. However that's about the last of the camera's big numbers that interests me. I don't fosee my work screening in theatres, and if I land something in a film festival, I could certainly content myself with HD resolution. I can't imagine any work I do in the near future requiring 4K, nor am I fixated on "future proofing" for some far off day when that resolution is somehow the norm for DVD or other widescale personal distribution.

What I do have absolute need or desire for now is a camera with a filmic (or better) dynamic range, progressive capture, better-than-DV color space, excellent low-light sensitivity, and 35mm or 2/3" CCD-caliber DOF characteristics. Once you're talking true progressive capture, dynamic range and sensitivity are the qualities that I feel most separate high-end cameras from mediocre ones, not resolution.

The only other camera I'm aware of that might warrant consideration for my next purchase is the Panasonic HPX500, and, unless it sells for WAY under the $14,000 body-only MSRP, I think the RED will have it beat by miles as far as sound investment goes.

[Andrew M.]

Wedding video on average is say around $1500. What in the hell would a wedding videographer charge when he shoots with the RED nearly investing 30k. Now unless your shooting movie star weddings and getting some some serious cash. Then go right ahead.

When did you get married?
These days for $1500 even photographer will not come:-)

[Ace]

Depth of field and Bokeh can produce some serious magic for a wedding video.

[Ivan G]

When did you get married?
These days for $1500 even photographer will not come:-)

That's what the going rate out here in Michigan is.... I have to deal with clients asking me if I meet these prices. Please tell me where your from and what they charge out there. I'm very interested!

BTW This RED is my ticket into other markets!

[Rick Darge]

The guy I used to work for charges between $3500-$8000 per job dependent on the # of cameras

[Andrew M.]

That's what the going rate out here in Michigan is.... I have to deal with clients asking me if I meet these prices. Please tell me where your from and what they charge out there. I'm very interested!

BTW This RED is my ticket into other markets!

I have a pin on the RED map, HD wedding video starts at 4.5K here.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I don't shoot them that often anymore but if I get my Red by early July, I'll be shooting Eva Longoria in 4k in Paris. That should be pretty cool.. Oterhwise it will be the HVX+Brevis

Richard, I will meet you there and carry your gear....

[jbeale]

> When did you get married? These days for $1500 even photographer will not come:-)

I got married six month ago, and I currently do wedding and event videography. I can assure you from my experience, $1500 is what many people in my area budget for video (of course, some spend more.)

My impression is that wedding photographers typically earn more than the video guys, even if a wedding stills album may go together faster than a wedding video edit. Historically people are used to paying a lot for photos; video is the new kid on the block in the wedding biz and is often seen as an "optional extra".

From what I have found, and hear from other wedding videographers, this field is not a path to riches. I don't know anyone who does weddings full-time who could justify a RED investment. Not to say they don't exist- I just haven't met them.

John Beale
Beale Corner Productions
www.bealecorner.com

[Steve Tammi]

My impression is that wedding photographers typically earn more than the video guys, even if a wedding stills album may go together faster than a wedding video edit. Historically people are used to paying a lot for photos; video is the new kid on the block in the wedding biz and is often seen as an "optional extra".

John Beale
Beale Corner Productions
www.bealecorner.com

I don't do weddings but with RED the possibility exists that you can be both the photographer and vidographer. Check out some of the still frames on the red.com gallery.

Steve

[Chris Forbes]

I don't shoot them that often anymore but if I get my Red by early July, I'll be shooting Eva Longoria in 4k in Paris. That should be pretty cool.. Oterhwise it will be the HVX+Brevis

I'll meet you there and carry her gear.

[Rick Darge]

haha - yes.. I bet she has some nice gear

[Medavoym]

Hello,

Again, just to make it clear (since I saw there was some discussion about it):

- 1.4M in reservation is nothing for Mr. Jannard, obviously. I did not mention that sum in any negative way whatsoever. I would have very gladly contributed one grand myself if I had the money. It's not only about the $1,000 (which I could have afforded), it's about the rest up to aprox $20,000 that I would have had to spend in a few months time, had I put down the reservation. And I simply don't have that kind of money now. I'm sure 90% of the rest of you here don't, either. It doesn't stop you from wanting the camera in the near future.

So, like many others, I still plan to get the camera in one year or so. That is why I hope Mr. Jannard will remain faithful to his initial promise, to bring a very affordable high-end camera to the average filmmaker. Of course, PLENTY of arguments can be brought for a price increase; I just hope RED will remain a dream for everyone even after NAB. It will soon be a dream come true for the reservation holders, I'm sure of that. Keeping the price low will transform the dream into a revolution, as it was mentioned so many times before.

I apologize if I was misunderstood.

[Alexander Nikishin]

For all you out there who can't afford the Red One, here is some financial information I found helpful to you. Remember, friends and family can contribute too!

http://www.abc.net.au/southwestwa/stories/s1706085.htm

[jbeale]

Setting aside the question of money for a moment... for those planning to use Red for wedding and other live events, I'm curious how this will work in practice.

My understanding is that Red is fully manual. That is to say the operator(s) must manually adjust focus, zoom, exposure and framing in real time, in somewhat unpredictable situations where there will only be one take. Is anyone successfully using such fully manual cameras for live event work now (particularly with the unforgiving 35mm depth of field)? Do you use a separate focus puller and someone else riding the aperture control?

I have always been a lone shooter myself using cameras with auto features, so I don't know how all this works out in practice.

[Ivan G]

FULL TIME:weight_lift:

http://www.futurewaveimages.com/

[Brainstorm]

Setting aside the question of money for a moment... for those planning to use Red for wedding and other live events, I'm curious how this will work in practice.

My understanding is that Red is fully manual. That is to say the operator(s) must manually adjust focus, zoom, exposure and framing in real time, in somewhat unpredictable situations where there will only be one take. Is anyone successfully using such fully manual cameras for live event work now (particularly with the unforgiving 35mm depth of field)? Do you use a separate focus puller and someone else riding the aperture control?

I have always been a lone shooter myself using cameras with auto features, so I don't know how all this works out in practice.


That's precisely why RED won't reach it's full market potential until somebody brings out a 35mm lens with a servo-controlled lens! Bring it on!!!

[Ace]

FULL TIME:weight_lift:

http://www.futurewaveimages.com/

Wow, I never thought Id actually enjoy sitting watching other peoples wedding videos, but the work you do takes it to the next level. Great stuff. I love that cropped vertical sundrenched shot.

[Ace]

That's precisely why RED won't reach it's full market potential until somebody brings out a 35mm lens with a servo-controlled lens! Bring it on!!!

Whoever produces this, will make about as much money as RED i reckon. The demand for this is quite apparant on the forum.

[Jared VanLeuven]

For all you out there who can't afford the Red One, here is some financial information I found helpful to you. Remember, friends and family can contribute too!

http://www.abc.net.au/southwestwa/stories/s1706085.htm

LOL! That's so twisted. What's their number again? :greedy:

[Alexander Nikishin]

LOL! That's so twisted. What's their number again? :greedy:

:devil:

[Ivan G]

Wow, I never thought Id actually enjoy sitting watching other peoples wedding videos, but the work you do takes it to the next level. Great stuff. I love that cropped vertical sundrenched shot.

Thanks Ace!

[Chris Kenny]

Setting aside the question of money for a moment... for those planning to use Red for wedding and other live events, I'm curious how this will work in practice.

My understanding is that Red is fully manual. That is to say the operator(s) must manually adjust focus, zoom, exposure and framing in real time, in somewhat unpredictable situations where there will only be one take. Is anyone successfully using such fully manual cameras for live event work now (particularly with the unforgiving 35mm depth of field)? Do you use a separate focus puller and someone else riding the aperture control?

I have always been a lone shooter myself using cameras with auto features, so I don't know how all this works out in practice.

Fully manual film cameras were regularly used for field acquisition of news for a long time, so it can be done. If you think operating a fully manual camera at a wedding is a challenge, imagine operating one in a war zone!

A lightweight 16mm-format zoom would be a must for this kind of work. A 35mm-format zoom would be too bulky to do handheld for long events, and pulling focus would be a complete nightmare.

All that said... I don't think I'd want to try this.

[Teague Kennedy]

Fully manual film cameras were regularly used for field acquisition of news for a long time, so it can be done. If you think operating a fully manual camera at a wedding is a challenge, imagine operating one in a war zone!

A lightweight 16mm-format zoom would be a must for this kind of work. A 35mm-format zoom would be too bulky to do handheld for long events, and pulling focus would be a complete nightmare.

All that said... I don't think I'd want to try this.

Very do-able. I do it everyday in real world reality tv situations (not 35mm, albeit). Just takes a little getting accustomed to. Your exposure will not pump in and out when you pan, and nor will your focus. It'll look great! With wide angle focus will be easier, and this is what you will use most of, anyway. And if someone wants their wedding at 4k, tell them that people will see the texture in their caked on makeup. That should get you into 2k domain.

[Don Woods]

Doc Holliday 33

[Mardi_Gras]

FULL TIME:weight_lift:

http://www.futurewaveimages.com/

Wow! Awesome stuff. Very different.

[Ralph Oshiro]

My understanding is that Red is fully manual. That is to say the operator(s) must manually adjust focus, zoom, exposure and framing in real time, in somewhat unpredictable situations where there will only be one take. Is anyone successfully using such fully manual cameras for live event work now (particularly with the unforgiving 35mm depth of field)? Do you use a separate focus puller and someone else riding the aperture control?Not to berate your methods, but at least in the broadcast-level field production (ENG/EFP--not multi-camera) world, EVERYTHING is operated manually. Sure, we may use the servo to engage a motorized push-in, or pull-out, but we typically ride our irises manually 100% of the time (with the help of in-camera zebras), and have to pull our own (manual) focus 100% of the time. I often make "finger-stop marks" on my lens barrel to mark focus points (e.g., I'll rack 'til my finger hits the lens motor). Often, I'll just look down my lens barrel, and approximate the focus with the distance scale on the barrel. For the shows I shoot for, manual zoom movement is an often-used technique as well (e.g., snap-zooms). And yes, this is all under very hurried, very chaotic shooting conditions.

It all comes from experience, of course. I recommend shooting "full manual" on some test shoot that doesn't matter, but simulates the same conditions. You may be surprised at just how quickly, how accurate you can get!

[Ralph Oshiro]

I just read your post again more carefully . . . NOW, say you're lensing a dramatic feature with RED, lensing a 50mm f/1.4, at say . . . f/1.4, yes, you're gonna NEED a focus-puller!

[Ivan G]

Wow! Awesome stuff. Very different.

Thanks Mardi!

[Alexander Nikishin]

I just read your post again more carefully . . . NOW, say you're lensing a dramatic feature with RED, lensing a 50mm f/1.4, at say . . . f/1.4, yes, you're gonna NEED a focus-puller!

To add to that, any still lens shooting at nearly ANY f-stop will need a focus puller.

An op. should only have to worry about framing and anticipating the next movement, not focus.

[Bruce Allen]

Wow, I just chanced on this thread... actually I agree with the very first post.

I believe in the Red.

I knew people who reserved would get preferential treatment. But I didn't reserve it.

That doesn't mean that I don't have faith in Red. It means that I am not rich. It means that I believe in only buying what I can afford. It means that I don't believe that you can live life off of credit cards. That's all.

I believe in story and actors and beauty above any kind of camera. It's just a tool. If they raise the Red price, and people who own Red Ones raise rental prices to match, then I will use something else. This doesn't mean that I am stupid or don't appreciate the Red. It just means that I believe in paying and feeding my crew properly before buying a fancy camera that does 4K.

The posts that make me feel weird are the ones that say "yeah, you're an idiot, you should have reserved, you weren't a believer." That's messed up. A promise to buy a Red means a promise to buy a Red. It doesn't mean that you should try to game the system.

Anyway, that's just the way I feel. Maybe I am out of touch. All the best, Red owners. Make great films. Life is short.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Ralph Oshiro]

The posts that make me feel weird are the ones that say "yeah, you're an idiot, you should have reserved, you weren't a believer."Who ever said that to you? As a RED reservation-holder myself, that's certainly not an attitude I would ever condone! Capital investment is a huge step for any entreprenuer. And for many of us, $17.5K USD is not an insignificant amount of coin. It's certainly not for everyone.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I have always been a lone shooter myself using cameras with auto features, so I don't know how all this works out in practice.Hey! I think may have come off as a bit over-presumptuous in my recent reply to your post. Didn't mean to--sorry. Anyway, yes, RED is going to present some new challenges operationally, especially for those of us choosing to use SLR still lenses as cine primes. To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to keep ANYTHING in focus with those tiny little distance scales, and that itty-bitty, focus-barrel travel on those Nikon still lenses. I think I'm gonna need an AC with some kind of laser-vision, GPS tracking computer built into his eye-brain-hand cyborg device to stay in focus!

[Jared VanLeuven]

That doesn't mean that I don't have faith in Red. It means that I am not rich. It means that I believe in only buying what I can afford. It means that I don't believe that you can live life off of credit cards. That's all.

I don't think that's a lifestyle any reservation-holder is advocating.

[Jaime Vallés]

To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to keep ANYTHING in focus with those tiny little distance scales, and that itty-bitty, focus-barrel travel on those Nikon still lenses. I think I'm gonna need an AC with some kind of laser-vision, GPS tracking computer built into his eye-brain-hand cyborg device to stay in focus!
This is my biggest concern at the moment. Being able to focus properly using Nikon lenses. Hopefully, RED's focus assist will make it somewhat doable. Well see what they show us at NAB. :shiftyph34r:

EDIT: BTW Ralph, that photo on the front of your website almost got me in trouble with the wife! ;)

[Alexander Nikishin]

To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to keep ANYTHING in focus with those tiny little distance scales, and that itty-bitty, focus-barrel travel on those Nikon still lenses. I think I'm gonna need an AC with some kind of laser-vision, GPS tracking computer built into his eye-brain-hand cyborg device to stay in focus!

After shooting with the M2 with a set of Nikons for some time now, trust me, it can be done. It just takes a talented person at the helm that's all. :spidy:

[Rick Darge]

How do pullers normally do it? Do they have a separate LCD screen and are most pullers on a wireless system?

[Finner]

When I pulled focus I rarely used a lcd or any monitor. Just marks and mesurements. If you try and pull off a monitor you will always be late in talents movements and be soft.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Marks are always the core of focus pulling. But having a reference monitor to check your focus on the fly always helps. Any AC will request for one if the budget allows for it from my experience.

Now for steadycam work, a wireless tap is pretty much a necessity for obvious reasons.

[Finner]

Marks are always the core of focus pulling. But having a reference monitor to check your focus on the fly always helps. Any AC will request for one if the budget allows for it from my experience.



I pulled focus on quite a few big shows and very rarely pulled out a monitor. I always had it in the package but as far as I was concerned it could sit on the carts 99% of the time. Most of all the A list focus pullers I have worked with rarely use a monitor. A really good AC will know their len's inside out so they know what exactly is in the frame just by the way the camera is pointed and what lens is on the camera. When a focus puller glances to check focus reference on a monitor is almost always inevitably when the talent moves differently on a take and then your soft. On an indy film this is fine as the directors are understanding when a focus puller does not get the shot but on a large feature a few of those and you are packing up your stuff in the truck because you will be replaced. Also video taps are very poor to use for judging focus with at any time. Focus pulling is one of the toughest jobs on set and when I find a talented one I treat them like gold. When I am shooting out of town with a new focus puller I don't know if they pull out a monitor I am always a little nervous. I have always had my best results with focus pullers that don't use a monitor.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yup, nothing like a genuine puller indeed Finner. Now in the case of still lenses, I still feel that a monitor is somewhat necessary, the barrel markings just aren't detailed well enough to pull it off every round.

Also, in most indie films, shots are often rehearsed a certain way but changed on the fly all too regularly, so I feel that a monitor SHOULDN'T be depended on, but it is a safety bonus for the less fortunate of us in the un-rehearsed indie world.

[Bruce Allen]

I think the answer to how focus pullers do it is... practice.

A good focus puller can look at something and estimate pretty accurately the distance that object is from the camera film plane. This comes partly from the simple training procedure of forcing yourself to guess distances BEFORE reaching for the tape measure.

Secondly, in fiction, the pullers have marks... and rehearse.

Add to this accumulated wisdom and experience, knowledge of lens circles of confusion, etc, plus knowing when it's a good idea to focus ahead or behind the actor for tactical reasons, plus just being able to feel which way you are drifting out (near or far...), again mostly through practicing a lot.

All of that said, I'm sure having access to a crisp good LCD couldn't hurt either!

I could be way off on this, any experienced focus pullers want to chime in?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Rob Lohman]

Charles Papert has some great tales to tell on focus pullers as well. How the good ones are scarily good at judging distances and so on. A good one is definitely worth his or her weight in gold ;)