CineForm News

[David Newman]

Couple of items for today. There are new Prospect 4K and Neo 4K build that went live today (Version 3.2.3 build 152.) But the reason for these new releases is to help support CineForm new standalone R3D conversion tool.

If you are thinking, "don't we already have that with RedCine?", you are correct and RedCine does much more than what CineForm is offering. Instead we are adding to your workflow options, particularly for those with PCs and/or GPUs insufficent to run RedCine. The tool is in public beta, currently with the unimaginative name R3D2DPX.exe (liked the sound of R3D2.) It only converts R3D files directly to DPX, AVI or MOV (CineForm compressed), very little else, not even a GUI. It doesn't require the GPU, so it will work on any SSE2 equiped PC (i.e. P4 onwards.) But there is no color processing for image enhance features like that of RedCine, you can simply set the size, format, and curve, and the rest is a direct conversion the preserve the full 12-bit space of the source.

Other than those who can't use RedCine, due to PC limitations, who is this tool intended to support? We believe many users would prefer to do all their color work further downstream in their post workflow. Doing the look in RedCine is new to many.

The tool is in public beta, and is completely free for the foreseeable future, and likely remain in beta for the same length of time. We are not charging as this effort was not Red endorsed, so as the camera changes the tool may have to change to keep up. It will work with your existing CineForm encoding licenses, although you will need to scale 4K images down if you only have HD or 2K licenses (some of the curves require buld 152) -- DPX outputs are not impacted.

So if you are interested, please read the tech note over here: http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/R3DConvert.htm

[MikeHedge]

wow. super neat.

[David Wilson]

Thank you David. I'm definitely interested.

[David Newman]

I look forward to your feedback.

[Jay A. Kelley]

This thing is amazing! This is one of the things I love most about RED, it has a business model that encourages CHOICES. Now I can use REDCine for some things, but when I need fast output that's simple, this will be perfect!

Thank you David, and thank you RED for the wonder atmosphere to make stuff like this possible.

If it were Sony, all we would be getting are complaints and threats right about now.

That's why I hate those Jerks.

RED works WITH people, while Sony just tries to control them.

Jay

[Sven Seynaeve]

Wow guys , this is such a huge effort again.
You give us more options and paths to follow.

I just don't get it , when I needed some updates of soft and plugs or implemented codecs in the past, we had to beg forever and it would still take months, You guys all come up with sollutions even before the mass has adopted to a certain format:

MOST COOL THING: it's even like that that you can convert to cineform RAW, wich drives me over maby getting a SI-2K and speedgrade for raw while I'm waiting on my red, and still meaningfull when I would like to mix footage coming from this cam in the future to mix in the same projects as my red footage, without leaving a certain application
It's a nice option.....,

[Sven Seynaeve]

I indeed forget to give a big applause giving us the upportunity to use most of the cores instead of only the gpu when things need to go fast.

[jbeale]

This is a wonderful tool, I would love to figure out how to use it!
Here's the command line I tried:

C:\test> r3d2dpx new%04d.dpx A003_C004_080104_001.R3D -o2 -s0001

Should it work? it just sits there, taking 1,688K memory, 0% CPU time and no disk access. Seems like it's waiting for something. I'm running WinXP SP2. If I type control-C after several minutes it quits immediately, but no files were created.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I am curious about noise and artifacts from the debayer - very curious to do comparisons.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Mark,

From what I can tell.. There is NONE.. It's pretty amazing

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is a wonderful tool, I would love to figure out how to use it!
Here's the command line I tried:

C:\test> r3d2dpx new%04d.dpx A003_C004_080104_001.R3D -o2 -s0001

Should it work? it just sits there, taking 1,688K memory, 0% CPU time and no disk access. Seems like it's waiting for something. I'm running WinXP SP2. If I type control-C after several minutes it quits immediately, but no files were created.

When its working you will see dots across the screen.. Also pay attention to the time to render.. You will see a 2x-4x speed increase!

Jay

[David Newman]

This is a wonderful tool, I would love to figure out how to use it!
Here's the command line I tried:

C:\test> r3d2dpx new%04d.dpx A003_C004_080104_001.R3D -o2 -s0001

Should it work? it just sits there, taking 1,688K memory, 0% CPU time and no disk access. Seems like it's waiting for something. I'm running WinXP SP2. If I type control-C after several minutes it quits immediately, but no files were created.

Yes that should have worked. Have you installed Prospect 4K, NEO 4K or NEO Player? Not that DPX uses CineForm components, however the Intel compiler we use has some re-distributable components are are installed with our other software packages.

Try :
r3d2dpx new%04d.dpx A003_C004_080104_001.R3D -o2 -s1

I'm not sure what the 0001 will do (it should of course work.)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark,

From what I can tell.. There is NONE.. It's pretty amazing

Jay

I'll respond to you the same way I have responded to TED and JIM in the past - "SOUNDS great - I will BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE IT" - I am a skeptical optimist.

And I also look a little deeper and tinker more than many people do - because I am obsessively curious -

[David Newman]

I am curious about noise and artifacts from the debayer - very curious to do comparisons.

We know this would be reasonable concern, that is why we started with DPX first. As that is uncompressed output, all you are seeing is redcode, plus our demosaic, plus the curve you choose. This allows you to compare the CineForm compression to the DPX output.

Technically this tool isn't all that useful for comparing Redcode to CineForm RAW, and it shouldn't be used that way. In this tools CineForm RAW is compressing the result of a wavelet compressor, which is easier that compressing the sensor directly. More important is to determine that aren't adding visible compresson artifacts, that is where the DPX output cames in handy.

[Mark L. Pederson]

This allows you to compare the CineForm compression to the DPX output.
So ... is the DPX with your demosaic EXACTLY the same as the DPX with RED's demosaic?

[David Newman]

So ... is the DPX with your demosaic EXACTLY the same as the DPX with RED's demosaic?

No, they are quite different. I was saying the comparison between DPX out of R3D2 and CineForm AVI|MOV out of this tool will allow you to see the impact of CineForm compression alone. Whereas DPX out of RedCine and DPX out of R3D2 will have a different sharpeness. There is no sharpening filter, yet the demosaic we use is optimized towards detail. Neither demosaic is better, they are just different.

[jbeale]

Yes that should have worked. Have you installed Prospect 4K, NEO 4K or NEO Player? Not that DPX uses CineForm components, however the Intel compiler we use has some re-distributable components are are installed with our other software packages.
Try : r3d2dpx new%04d.dpx A003_C004_080104_001.R3D -o2 -s1

OK, I didn't have NEO Player but I do now. Installed and rebooted. I tried that command line, but it just sits there, no dots or anything, using 0% CPU. By the way Sony Vegas 7 is installed on this machine, which uses some Cineform tech I believe, does that create a conflict?

Very eager to get this working, but no luck so far.

[David Newman]

try -v, it turns on limited debugging. Then email me the results (dnewman cineform com.) We will work this out.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Try entering the input and output directory.. Not saying that will do it, but it's what I did.

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

No, they are quite different. I was saying the comparison between DPX out of R3D2 and CineForm AVI|MOV out of this tool will allow you to see the impact of CineForm compression alone. Whereas DPX out of RedCine and DPX out of R3D2 will have a different sharpeness. There is no sharpening filter, yet the demosaic we use is optimized towards detail. Neither demosaic is better, they are just different.

Understood. That is what I thought. So, obviously if I compare the DPX with your demosaic with the CineForm compression which is done with your demosiac I am just looking at your compression - I need to see what - "Neither demosaic is better, they are just different" really means. I'll do some tests tomorrow.

[Jannard]

We have two concerns with this.

1. Graeme has done side by side testing and the DPX files created by this app are inferior to DPX files from RED Alert! and REDCINE. If you start with a demosaic that isn't effective and then add compression, the results will get progressively worse down the line.

2. We aren't done with our code yet. We have asked Cineform to please wait until we are finished before "helping" our customers. Our additional fear is that we will be blamed for a code change when this app stops working.

We have our hands full. Rob is almost finished with our Command Line app that works the same as RA and RC. We don't want to have our customers disappointed with the finished product and have it be due to a "workflow issue".

I hope that Cineform will show just a bit more restraint in releasing an app like this. Please wait until our code is finished, then take the time to make sure the result is worthy of the footage.

Graeme will post the side by side comparison of this and RED demosiac. If you are impatient, please do your own comparison and post it here.

Jim

[jbeale]

Jim, I think I understand where you are coming from on this, but honestly I think you are not giving the customers quite enough credit. Back when MiniDV cameras were new, there were many different DV codecs (I guess there still are). MainConcept had one, Microsoft had one, Canopus had one, etc. They had different characteristics, which were thoroughly analyzed by many different people, examples were posted in forums, and people were free to choose the tool that they preferred for the job at hand.

Needless to say the first thing I did with the new Cineform tool is test it with my own footage and compare. I'd be pretty stunned if there's a single imaging professional who would do anything else.

(For those who haven't got a camera yet, and if artificial test patterns are your thing, I've got some R3Ds ready for your evaluation: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/index.html )

[Graeme Nattress]

Demosaic Comparison

(Note PDF available here http://reduser.net/Demosaic%20Comparison.pdf - images in it are png to avoid the JPEG compression in the images below)

This is a comparison of Bayer Pattern demosaic from CineForm’s R3D2DPX, compared to the current RED decode. Due to colorimetry differences between the CineForm DPX converter, and REDAlert!, I used levels in Photoshop to match the tonalities as best as I can. Photoshop was also used to analyse and produce the comparisons, splitting out the RGB channels for easy viewing, with CineForm on the left, and REDAlert! on the right. I’d encourage you to zoom in on the images as that will help you see things more clearly.

Image 1: Base Comparison
2688
This is the basic decode from Cineform, compared to RedAlert. As David Newman points out, their demosaic algorithm is optimized towards detail. All other things being equal, this is reasonable, but personally, I like to take a more balanced approach, looking at other qualities as well. Looking closer, we see that we're trading sharpness for pixel level artifacts, especially on edges, where what looks like a characteristic Bayer artifact, the zipper, appears on the CineForm image. In comparison, the RED image is smoother, more continuous, and less blocky in the red and blue channels.

Image 2: Matching*Apparent*Sharpness
2689
Adding a small amount of unsharp mask in Photoshop balanced the sharpness between the two algorithms, allowing us to further our comparison. The RED image reacts well to a small amount of sharpness.

Image 3: Adding Too Much Sharpness
2691
Although adding excessive sharpness is not something you'd really want to do to an image, it does exaggerate image artifacts. It's a useful test to help us see what is going on. I added, unsharp mask radius 0.6, amount 500%, tolerance 0 to both images. Now, even without zooming in we can see how the RED image stands up very well to this stress test.

Image 4: Adding Saturation
2690
Going back to our original unsharpened images we can see the effects of adding sharpness. The RED demosaic takes great care to ensure that the resulting RGB colour channels are co-sited. This is very important with Bayer Pattern sensors as their very nature means that the red, green and blue pixels are not spatially co-located in space, but are offset from each other in the Bayer Pattern. Because adding saturation exaggerates the difference between colour channels, artifacts are created when they are not co-sited. We can especially see the effect of this where the jacket logo becomes nearly unreadable on the CineForm demosaic red channel.

Image 5: Combinging Sharpness and Saturation
2687
The RED image behaves essentially as you'd expect, whereas the CineForm demosaic now shows a lot of Bayer artifacts.

From the above you can see why I designed the RED demosaic as it is. By changing numbers in the algorithm, we can increase the apparent sharpness, but only by introducing very similar artifacts to what we see in the Cineform image. I believe that image robustness is important, and that the colour channels should appear co-sited so that even after adding an excessive amount of sharpness and saturation, the image does not break up.

Graeme

[Jim Geduldick]

Geez Graeme with the quick ,direct and informative post .
super Genius points on this one.

[Jannard]

Needless to say the first thing I did with the new Cineform tool is test it with my own footage and compare. I'd be pretty stunned if there's a single imaging professional who would do anything else.http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/index.html )

If your results show different results than Graeme's, we'd love to see them. You are free to do whatever you like. We just want you to know what you are choosing.

Jim

[David Newman]

Absolutely, you should do your own testing, of the whole work-flow. We have we have going through many demosaic type throughout the years, we even have a plugin API for those who wish to create there own. But then reality sets it, real world work-flows are impacted by many factors, quality, performance, easy of access, tools compatibility, output resolution (4K at 2K or 1080p.) In the past we had more advanced demosaic, and found diminishing returns for compute time versus final output quality. Many features have gone through that demosaic at 2K (with stesses it more than 4K), including a film at last years Cannes film festival. You can stress out any element of any work-flow and highlight a weakness using unrealistic post filters. That is easy. Speed and compatibility are some of your work-flow weak spots. I sure you are working on it. As we are to. We think choice is a good thing. Users can go either why, if you let them choose.

[jbeale]

I have only done a very preliminary analysis so far, but I have seen what Graeme has also. Briefly; with sharpening, or even without sharpening if your scene contains high-frequency color detail, the R3d2dpx utility shows a variety of pixel-level artifacts that Redcine output does not.

However, if you shot 4k and your deliverable is 2k or lower, I'm not sure how much practical difference the debayer algorithm makes. Simple command line utilities are tremendously useful and I can do things with it (for low-res output) that Redcine cannot do right now, on my system anyway. I look forward to the equivalent Red utility when that becomes available.

[Jannard]

In the past we had more advanced demosaic, and found diminishing returns for compute time versus final output quality.

This is a fundamental difference in our thinking...

The good news is that there is a choice.

Jim

[David Newman]

I have only done a very preliminary analysis so far, but I have seen what Graeme has also. Briefly; with sharpening, or even without sharpening if your scene contains high-frequency color detail, the R3d2dpx utility shows a variety of pixel-level artifacts that Redcine output does not.

However, if you shot 4k and your deliverable is 2k or lower, I'm not sure how much practical difference the debayer algorithm makes. Simple command line utilities are tremendously useful and I can do things with it (for low-res output) that Redcine cannot do right now, on my system anyway. I look forward to the equivalent Red utility when that becomes available.

Totally agree to both paragraphs. Issue in real world shooting conditions high-frequency color details happen less often than than high frequency luma detail changes. Bayer has this issue that while every cell supports luma information, the same is not true for chroma. So there is a sliding scale for how luma detail you get while limiting chroma aliasing. The different is simply were on that scale you want to be. Now if you would like a softened more filter image they should ask, as that tool was only created over the last couple of weeks, we want feedback (on all factors.) Of course if you are outputting 4K at 2K, then there is no issue.

Relax, have fun with the choice. Once Red has tools that work as well, when we will happily have our customers use, or we will make something faster still. ;)

[reality]

It seems like there really should be something on the cineform tool that says that for speed it gives up quality, because looking at those samples the quality looks pretty low.

I know Red made it very clear that the super fast (realtime?) quicktime decode is of lower quality than the redcine debayer, do they use the same methods to extract the info?

I can see someone going out and using this tool and getting inferior results and blame the camera, which doesnt do RED or CINEFORM any justice.

[Jannard]

Graeme has spent all his time to extract the nth degree of quality from RED footage. Now he and Rob are working on speed. Results of their efforts will be seen soon.

It is hard for us to watch our customers give up that quality for speed. Our goal for our customers is good AND fast, not just fast. I am sure that Cineform has the same intentions for the future. When our code is finished, we hope Cineform will take another pass at it.

Jim

[David Newman]

reality,

Please try for yourself, Graeme's analysis do not reflect the experience with typically imagery. Of the dozen of so beta testers, no one complained of quality. Once you try some of your image, please comment on areas you seek improvement.

[reality]

Are you suggesting that Graeme's images are not real? I've always trusted Graeme. Maybe the beta testers didn't know what to look for?

[Jannard]

Graeme used the .r3d file that I posted a couple of months ago. Anyone can do the same test with the same footage.

Jim

[Jannard]

We have stated that Build 14 is a landmark build. It has many updates and changes to the code. Maybe Cineform can take another pass at this when we release it? I'm sure they will want to improve the demosaic while maintaining the speed.

It is in everyone's best interest to have as good of quality as possible in any format that will be used for RED footage. We recognize the customers need for options. We also recognize that our customers deserve the best quality.

Jim

[Pig]

Jim,
I know RED is your 'baby', but sooner or later you'll have to realize that it is growing up, and that it will make its own friends, with which you may not always agree, or find to your liking.
Eventually, it will be on its own, and won't be able to rely on its paternal protection.

:biggrin:

[reality]

Please try for yourself, Graeme's analysis do not reflect the experience with typically imagery. Of the dozen of so beta testers, no one complained of quality. Once you try some of your image, please comment on areas you seek improvement.

Alright, I had our post guys try it on some footage shot earlier for a sheet metal job and passed frames of both to our vfx supe, post guys and colorist.

since we're currently posting some of this footage, I was able to get the footage up on a projector in a grading suite. Redcine and Redalert looked the same but Cineform looked very different.

the response was that cineform might be ok for editorial but not usable for final quality work and not acceptable enough to pass the network QC guys. the colorist said it felt like he was working with a dub that had dubbed.

i like the idea of having choices but can't take the risk. if someone spots a problem and realizes we did a lower quality output, my ass is grass.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This cineform de-mosaic is a no-go for me. You can can't anti-alias aliased footage. You can supersample anti-aliased footage. I like the Cineform compression codec though so I wish I could capture in Cineform, edit in cineofrm and de-mosaic in REDCine.

I'm getting stuff that looks a lot like the early pumpkin footage.

All the same I like where this is going.

[Jannard]

Jim,
I know RED is your 'baby', but sooner or later you'll have to realize that it is growing up, and that it will make its own friends, with which you may not always agree, or find to your liking.
Eventually, it will be on its own, and won't be able to rely on its paternal protection.

:biggrin:

I fully understand your point and agree that RED will take on its own life... it happened with Oakley. But it is hard to swallow seeing a step down in quality when we have worked so hard to get here.

Jim

[Sanjin Jukic]

I stick with REDCINE and REDALERT.

Cineform is very OK, but shows some weak points.

Speed is not an issue in my work.

I work in a studio and not used to "cook" a "fast food".

It's not good for my "health".

Highest quality is my goal.

"Cucina alla Mamma".

[full moon]

Maybe Greame could help Cineform with the debayer quality or does he just work for RED?

[Jannard]

Graeme (a before e) works for RED... :-) A lot of companies wished they had him. We are very lucky.

Jim

[Pig]

...it is hard to swallow seeing a step down in quality when we have worked so hard to get here.

Yes, of course. That I can appreciate.

However, depending on how it is defined, if Cineform offers a FASTER solution with a known output quality (whether that be slightly less quality, or with a [insert term here] quality difference), it still might be a welcome solution to some.

I am one of the [apparently] few who think the RED can produce far better quality than I need for some time to come. When I put my reservation in back in 2006 I knew that this cam was going to be more than I need for a while. Heck, I was disappointed that 1080p and even 720p was dropped.
I want all the benefits of being capable of shooting to its max resolution, but at the same time I want the ability to do a quick-and-dirty, no frills attached, super fast shoot with the least amount of effort and at the fastest speed possible.

Not all of us want to shoot to the max resolution with the best lenses with the best codec, all the time.

I know that's hard for you to understand though! :) :) :)

[reality]

This cineform de-mosaic is a no-go for me. You can can't anti-alias aliased footage.

that was a no-go for us also. we couldn't live with marginal quality and in one shot with a fine fabric texture, the alias made it look like bad 70s gong show video.

the whole point of shooting red and 4k for us is to get the best quality. if I wanted less quality then i'd choose 2k first. choosing cineform with lower quality doesn't quite add up if i'm shooting 4k.

this is quite disappointing as i thought this workflow would work for us.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Graeme has spent all his time to extract the nth degree of quality from RED footage. Now he and Rob are working on speed. Results of their efforts will be seen soon.

It is hard for us to watch our customers give up that quality for speed. Our goal for our customers is good AND fast, not just fast. I am sure that Cineform has the same intentions for the future. When our code is finished, we hope Cineform will take another pass at it.

Jim

Jim,

I've always liked you. This is what I am talking about, this is the attitude that will set RED apart from Sony and everyone else!

When the owner of RED says to another company, "I know you guys want to make this work, and when have our ducks in a row, I hope you will push your product even further!"

Jim you have no idea how great I feel about RED as a company when I see a post like this from you. It PROVES to me that you are really going to be different.

I know initially this had must have had you a little "concerned" :) but I have watch you for a while now, and it seems you always come around after you've had some to think things through.

One of RED's themes, is CHOICES. And Cineform has offered one.

If it's alright I would like to point out a couple of things you may not have thought of yet:

For a number of us on PCs, REDCine does NOT work. We have to output QT files and the first frame just freezes. I am sure you are all working on it, but up to now there are those of us that had no idea of how our post system would work. Thanks to this command line, we can now see and work with your footage. the quality may not quite be as yours is, but from out perspective, it's better than nothing! I don't know if you've "strongly suggested" that Cineform stop this command line app, I hope not, but if you have please make sure change your position on this so that we still have access to this command line since a lot of us have NOTHING else that works right now.

We need AVI files in PC land.. Not Quicktime. This plugin allows us to bypass the step of re-wrapping our files.

Jim there will come a day when REDCine is fleshed out and works with most everything. When that time comes, I will be there! But until then, I would propose that Cineform has taken care of a serious issue for RED for the time being, they have provided a tool which solves some serious problems for those of us who could not use REDCine.

Look at it this way: Cineform will be a great focus group for you. Since they will be working this thing from another angle, it allows you to watch it and guage customer reactions without using up your man hours to get the data.

A good example is this speed vs. quality deal. I know YOU are all about quality, but as you have heard from us in the past, sometimes speed can rule. How much are we willing to give up in quality for speed, and when do we want it? Its possible that as REDUsed drop in frame size (1080 vs 2k or 4k) these same people do not find the need for utmost quality since the smaller frames do not see as much anyway. This could give rise to a specific demoasic pattern for 1080p only. One that balances good quality with breathtaking speed. Just a guess.

Anyway, it makes me feel good when I see you taking a more supportive position with people like Cineform. They are a good group of guys, they want to make a living sure, and if their product can survive a bunch of anal people like us, then they deserve too!

:)

Your friend

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

that was a no-go for us also. we couldn't live with marginal quality and in one shot with a fine fabric texture, the alias made it look like bad 70s gong show video.

the whole point of shooting red and 4k for us is to get the best quality. if I wanted less quality then i'd choose 2k first. choosing cineform with lower quality doesn't quite add up if i'm shooting 4k.

this is quite disappointing as i thought this workflow would work for us.

Uhhh Reality, I seem to recall David saying this was BETA. Instead of writing it off, why not tell him what you want changed? According to David this thing is TWO WEEKS old.. I'm sure there is room for improvement. And he's asked for feedback.

Just a thought.

Jau

[David Newman]

Good Morning,

And thank you to everyone for your feedback. Yes, this is beta and yes it is very new, I only started working on it after Christmas. I have to admit the concerns over the demosaic has caught me by supprize, while I think this is a smaller issue than it has played out here, it is a separate module that can be enhanced with some moderate work.

Thank also for the emails and support. We don't aim to be competitors with Red, this is all about supporting the workflow. It is not at all personal as someone suggested. While we have been frustrated with not knowing when third parties can do these types tools openly, so we routed that frustration is developing new workflows and choices.

Thank you to Red for being far less resistant to this than we expected. While we unfortunately aren't able to share technology, yes Graeme demosaic in R3D2DPX would be a quick solution, we can keep each other on our toes in a friendly way, pushing multiple solutions forward. Remember both solutions are free.

[tillHavis]

Fair Point Jay, PC's need support too, I am in total agreement on this point. It is counterproductive not to offer a solution to a problem when one exists just because of platform.
After all isn't this what Red started out doing; offering people an alternative, when none were available. This is something that can get lost when economic and other concerns begin to raise their head.

With that said Cineform Please Please get going on your HD Link application for Mac.
I am in the opposite boat and want to use Cineform as my DI with my existing Blackmagic equipment. However their is no Mac support.

.......ay, there's the rub;

[number6]

Glad this isn't an either/or thing. That is, I work in an Adobe environment and do not have the time nor even the spare mental capacity to learn and store a new way of working. Cineform affords me an optional way of staying in that environment.

Gratefully, the weaknesses and strengths and where each solution (REDCINE or R3D2?) is currently in the development process, has been noted.

I look forward to the time when either solution becomes more matured, and future decisions can be made based on their respective evolution.

But I think RED Cine Camera Company, (or whatever it's called) can take pride in the fact that complementary companies identified what this camera means in terms of future acceptance, and have quickly moved to support that future.

I said a couple of months ago that there is a place in my workflow for Cineform, and what has transpired since has only reinforced that opinion.

They seem to me like the RED of the workflow world...they act, they listen, and react.

I understand that RED can't drop everything and attend to an individual company's needs. I don't want them to. And just like they asked offhollywood to not write his plug-in type app for REDCINE or Red Alert!... can't remember the exact details, I am sure it's not personal toward Cineform that they would like a controlled advance in the development of the whole RED system of image recording and creation. They are very protective of their reputation.

But thanks to RED, Pandora's box has been opened and her sweet satchet has escaped, so now everyone is acting independently because of the euphoria... or something.

[Brent J. Craig]

I'm very surprised that Cineform was able to reverse-engineer Red's Raw footage. In the DSLR world, RAW decoders are closely-guarded secrets because in addition to decoding the image, they hide and compensate for certain weaknesses in the cameras. Any program that decodes DSLR RAW does so with encrypted modules provided by the manufactures themselves, not with in-house software.

Does Redcode RAW not have these dirty little secrets?

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm very surprised that Cineform was able to reverse-engineer Red's Raw footage. In the DSLR world, RAW decoders are closely-guarded secrets because in addition to decoding the image, they hide and compensate for certain weaknesses in the cameras. Any program that decodes DSLR RAW does so with encrypted modules provided by the manufactures themselves, not with in-house software.

Does Redcode RAW not have these dirty little secrets?

Is this something we really need to dive into?? Things are tense enough and everyone involved is TRYING to be cool about all this.

I'm sure if there are issues in this area RED and Cineform will deal with them privately. The good news is that RED has decided to be supportive of this action for the benefit of it's customers. I would suggest we focus on that.

Please understand, I am not trying to knock you down, but if you have read this thread, you would know this whole thing is a little tough for some to swallow, and they are trying like hell to keep a smile on because they know it's a help to a lot of RED's customers.

Jay

[jbeale]

In the DSLR world, RAW decoders are closely-guarded secrets....

For my Canon 20D RAW (.CR2) files I have many choices: Canon has their DPP converter (which AFAIK few people actually use). There is also Adobe Photoshop, BreezeBrowser Pro, Rawshooter, etc. some of which probably use Canon's SDK (which is available without charge). Adobe complained about Nikon's white-balance encryption so I guess they are reverse-engineering to some extent. Some others, like DCRAW, are open-source. http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/digicam/dcraw/

See also this interview with DCRAW's creator, Dave Coffin.

"If anyone understands the ins and outs of RAW, it's Dave Coffin, he has reverse engineered the RAW formats of almost every digital camera on the market and provides his code (dcraw.c) freely for anyone to use. [...] "
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05042701davecoffininterview.asp

DCRAW offers a choice of Debayer algorithms including Bilinear, Variable Number of Gradients (VNG), Patterned Pixel Grouping (PPG), and Adaptive Homogeneity-Directed (AHD) so that you can season to taste. (note, as far as I know, it doesn't read R3D )

[Anders Holck]

Any program that decodes DSLR RAW does so with encrypted modules provided by the manufactures themselves, not with in-house software.

This is not correct. Most RAW converters are based on reverse engineering to figure out the RAW file format. Photoshop Camera RAW, Lightroom, dcraw and many more, all use their own code.
There was a big riot in the business some time ago when Nikon "encrypted" the metadata part of the NEF file, making it especially tricky to support.

Reverse engineering the RAW image data is not hard (Most use the TIFF format as basis), but profiling the sensor and parsing the metadata is. And of cause making your own debayer engine and corlor Magic also is.

An extra layer in the R3D file format is of cause the proporitairy REDCODE compression.

It's true that most Camera makers offer a SDK for software developers to use, but the problem is that they are usually dog slow, buggy and will function as a black box in a custom converter. It's not that they offer you some source code you can implement, but only a precompiled library.
You tell it to read a RAW file and it delivers the final reconstructed image on the other end.
As there are no possibilities to make any improvements over the "Vendor way" the whole idea of a custom RAW converter goes away.

[David Newman]

No reverse engineering was required in the R3D case, no encryption, or obfuscation is used in the bitstream. The file format is in a standard ATOM structure, containing standard media essence data. It is a nice simple well designed format, which will be well supported by third parties. Red has done a good job with this open design.

[Rocket]

Back when MiniDV cameras were new, there were many different DV codecs (I guess there still are).

O.k I just gave it a good-old-Aussie-go and i must admit, the difference in quality is pretty disappointing. I am a long time Cineform fan and got really excited about these new tools. I hope David you can make things better, as for now, I just can't see myself degrading my footage with Cineform. It's like putting regular octane fuel in a Ferrari.

I don't mean to be bleak, but i didn't buy the Red because it looked cool, I bought it because the images are the best images I have ever seen, and I want to keep them that way.

[David Newman]

Rocket,

Absolutely we going to look into the demosaic, in the meantime people should try the built in scaling. 4:4:4 2K is going to be a common workflow, and all this distraction on 4K demosaics becomes moot. We have the feedback on the demoasic, requests is more quality, how about the rest of the features. Want else should we add, change and fix?

[Anders Holck]

.DNG output option?

[David Newman]

DNG is totally doable, but not a very video centric workflow.

[Karl H]

Hi David,

Can you extract the audio from the R3D file too? Im very concerned that right now the only way to get audio is to drop a proxy into FCP. That limits workflow with any other NLE.

(or is the audio not part of the R3D?)

[Rocket]

all this distraction on 4K demosaics becomes moot.

Ouch. So are you officially taking a position against 4k? Or has Silicon Imaging just paid you enough to say that 2K is the way to go? ( joke )

I dont want to direct this thread off topic, but I am surprised by your comment. Yes many people will only shoot and post 2k. But this is a 4k camera, and if your tools export 4k, they shouldn't be half-baked, unless of course you clearly state in the application that they are half-ass.

Like I said; I am a big fan of Cineform. I have always thought the CF codec was of top-notch quality, and I think the problem may be that REDCODE may of trumped it quality-wise. I have faith your next release will be better.

[Anders Holck]

DNG is totally doable, but not a very video centric workflow.

Not for motion sequences no, but as RED's tools are all primary correction only, it could be very very cool to be able to send small RAW still reference frames in .DNG to test different final looks for the later grade session or to make production stills.

Or maybe I have just shot too much on my 5D lately?

[David Newman]

Rocket,

No, no, just saying 4K post will be beyond many for a while, even though CineForm does make 4K easier, many will shoot 4K, and post and master 2K (consider FCP is also not 4K yet.) This still reaps nearly all the benefits of shooting with Red. We going to release without scaling, YUV, etc, yet it these were requested features from beta testers.

[David Newman]

Not for motion sequences no, but as RED's tools are all primary correction only, it could be very very cool to be able to send small RAW still reference frames in .DNG to test different final looks for the later grade session or to make production stills.

Or maybe I have just shot too much on my 5D lately?

Once we are beyond the demosaic issues, I will see about adding that.

[reality]

What we found was that to get the best quality we had to start with the best quality 4k debayer and then scale down. This was with red tools and our preliminary tests with cinefors suggest the same. The scaling seems to amplify the artifacts.

[Jay A. Kelley]

For those of you complaining about the quality, would you please post some samples?

I need to learn...

Thanks

Jay

[David Newman]

Hi David,

Can you extract the audio from the R3D file too? Im very concerned that right now the only way to get audio is to drop a proxy into FCP. That limits workflow with any other NLE.

(or is the audio not part of the R3D?)

It will extact audio add that to the AVI or MOV upon export. Only done limited testing as so few audio online have audio.

[Mike McCarthy]

Ouch. So are you officially taking a position against 4k? Or has Silicon Imaging just paid you enough to say that 2K is the way to go? ( joke )

I dont want to direct this thread off topic, but I am surprised by your comment. Yes many people will only shoot and post 2k. But this is a 4k camera, and if your tools export 4k, they shouldn't be half-baked, unless of course you clearly state in the application that they are half-ass.

Like I said; I am a big fan of Cineform. I have always thought the CF codec was of top-notch quality, and I think the problem may be that REDCODE may of trumped it quality-wise. I have faith your next release will be better.

Just because you shoot 4K doesn't mean you should post 4K. Thousands of people shoot HD and post SD. Shooting 4K and posting 2K or 1080p is totally reasonable. Only reason to post 4K is if you have a 4K application for your final piece, meaning 4K projection or film print. All footage for broadcast, DVD, BluRay etc. will be 4K downsampled to 1080p max. Shooting 4K gives you options, no debate there, but scale or zoom to 2K or 1080p are a few of those options.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David is going to kill me for this....

Here's what I want...

I WANT A DAMN U.I. (User interface) I know it won't be a pretty as REDCine... I DON'T CARE. Why am I entering all this text/code crap?!

Do I look like some computer/programmer geek? (I didn't offend anyone with that did I? <- as he asks in a room FULL of programmers! ) :)

Seriously, I'm too stupid to keep up with all these command codes, I need a checkbox with the choices, a box for resolution, a checkbox for format/codec. and the a text box with browser for file in, and file out.

Please please please please

Jay

[Paolo Tinari]

... A DAMN U.I.
Jay

It would be nice.
Too, It would be nice a CF RT curves in Premiere (as starter....-)

I tried R3d2CFAVI and i'm happy with the results even thou i'm in love with Redcine

[Jannard]

Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim

[Vladimir Eugene]

As I understood REDCODE is not opened up, as it only has native support by two vendors.

disclaimer- my understanding is sometimes substantially limited. And I'm on pain meds- basketball injury... we won

[Jay A. Kelley]

Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim

Please work your majic here Jim... We need this... Right now.

Jay

[Steve Freebairn]

Please say your agreements with Apple don't limit Adobe. They seem to be left out quite a bit on this forum.

[Jay A. Kelley]

It would be a crime in itself to have a solution only to be told by blood sucking lawyers it's going to be taken away.

Jim's in charge.. He'll make it happen

Jay

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.

Jim

I have to ask:
"Exclusivity agreement"? On which part? You're JPEG2000 Compatible which means nobody is reverse engineering a codec. Exclusvity agreement on the metadata envelope? On the 4-plane method of encoding the bayer channels?

Define "opened up to the market"? You mean by not encrypting the image data?

Which part is the concern? Who is the exclusivity agreement with? This had better not be some element to lock us into FCP.

[Jannard]

We honor deals we make no matter what. If we sold you a camera and told you the price was $17,500 and found out that our costs were $50,000, we would sell you the camera for $17,500. That is the way good business is done. I don't think anyone is asking us to ignore our agreements here. We are digging to find out exactly what the commitments are and how long they last.

We'll keep you posted.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think what we are asking for Jim, is that you find a way to make this happen. It's important to us and fills an urgent need.

Like I said, I am sure you will handle it and make it work. The guy who fathered RED can certainly handle something like this.

:)

Jay

[Jannard]

I think what we are asking for Jim, is that you find a way to make this happen. It's important to us and fills an urgent need.

Like I said, I am sure you will handle it and make it work. The guy who fathered RED can certainly handle something like this.

:)

Jay

Jay... I am investigating as I said I would. But I'm curious. What is the urgent need again?

Jim

[Rudi Herbert]

This unintended butting of heads is somewhat unfortunate,

RED and Jim have proven not only their ethics and honesty but also their commitment to the highest quality time and again. However, it is no less of a truth that to achieve what one considers perfection, one seeks to do it in a very particular way. Matter of fact is, the higher the perfection one seeks, the more defined and particular one's methods and thinking are. And RED's methods clearly are more geared towards FCP first and almost exclusively and as a distant option, AVID. But the truth is there are a lot of us out there that have been making a professional living in this industry for many years that have amassed a tool kit based on Adobe that feel somewhat left out. I don't wish to start another Apple vs. PC debate or whatever here, but I refuse to learn another system, a system that will NOT produce any better results than the system I currently use, just because nowadays, as AVID was before FCP came into its own, FCP is the "professional choice". And I won't change that because of RED or any other product, however cool and revolutionary it may be.

Now, even before RED had formed in Jim's mind, Cineform was already working on Wavelet compressors and their support for Premiere makes that NLE one of the most complete, if not the most, systems on the market and one that exhibits amazingly high quality. They even outperformed Sony's HDCAM SR, which on Claudio Miranda's test outperformed REDCODE. I have used Cineform and believe it to be an amazing codec, devoid in fact in some SI-2K originated footage I've seen, of some of the problems that show up here and there on RED footage. Then again, compressing 2K footage is easier than compressing a 4K stream. But truth is, if Cineform were not recompressing the already compressed REDCODE, I doubt there would be these quality issues at all. And the truth also is that Cineform is doing their best at what they've done so well so far: enabling a real time, high quality PC workflow, something that, for totally acceptable reasons, seems VERY low on RED's list of priorities. And the truth also is that Jim has every right to be protective of his baby if a step in quality is taken backwards. But Cineform or not, somebody will need to cater to the hundreds, and eventually thousands of RED buyers out there, that are PC/Adobe based. And sooner rather than later. Plain and simple. So let's understand where everybody is coming from and not point any fingers that need not be raised, especially if you are already editing on your polished Apples with FCP anyway...

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay... I am investigating as I said I would. But I'm curious. What is the urgent need again?

Jim

Thank you for the question!

On a number of PCs REDCine will not output Quicktime files. The first frame just freezes. This seems to be caused by a number of reasons ranging from old graphics cards to something screwy with Quicktime.

Also: PC users cannot edit in Quicktime well, we live in an AVI world. Assuming we could render our Quicktime files, we would still have to re-wrap into AVI.

The command line App by Cineform solves both of these issues and affords PCs users a somewhat useable workflow. We already like the cineform codec, so we're good to go for now.

I hope this answers your question. :)

Jay

[Jannard]

In the forming of RED, when most were calling us a scam, Apple stepped in and embraced what we were doing. Hence, the Apple-centric beginning. But we also understand that the PC/Adobe world is important and should not be ignored. Which is why we spent considerable development energy on REDCINE... which started out as a PC based application with avi support coming. We have done our best, given the short history of RED, to try to balance our efforts.

There is no question that the future holds RED solutions for all workflows and platforms. It makes no sense to exclude customers. But you have to know that when we started we placed many calls to companies that were never returned. Apple answered the phone.

Jim

[Rob Lohman]

But truth is, if Cineform were not recompressing the already compressed REDCODE, I doubt there would be these quality issues at all.

The examples put up by us did not include any recompressing. So that will only add to the artifacting. You also can't just have the Cineform engine decode our wavelet file (which is why they are not using it in their command line tool).

We understand all the workflow needs and we have said many times we're working on adding support on all sorts of different levels and platforms.

[Rob Lohman]

But you have to know that when we started we placed many calls to companies that were never returned. Apple answered the phone.

As did Assimilate!

[Rudi Herbert]

The examples put up by us did not include any recompressing. So that will only add to the artifacting. You also can't just have the Cineform engine decode our wavelet file (which is why they are not using it in their command line tool).

Rob,

I meant that Cineform is starting from REDCODE, an already compressed solution, and then adding their own demosaicing. If they were able to take the RAW feed from the sensor as REDCODE does, and as Cineform does with the SI-2K, then I think the quality of their excellent codec would be obvious. That's all I said. Being the original compressor from the raw source, Cineform is amazingly clean, malleable and high quality. Then again, so is REDCODE.

Jim, eagerly awaiting REDCODE AVI, or whatever you guys decide to call it...

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know I can't shake the feeling that this decision was already made and we're being set up for the fall.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

We need this app. Pure and simple. It would be a shame to have it taken from us.

Jim, you asked me why the need was so urgent, and I answered it.

I can read the subtext of what you've written. Not only were you talking about who answered your phone calls, you're talking about who "didn't".

But we're here now and things change..

My two cents.

Jay

[David Newman]

While the discussion seems to have moved on to other issues, we have just uploaded a build that addresses the demosaicing quality. The new tool will now default to a higher quality debayering filter, which is a little slower, impacting frame throughput only about 10%. If you want the old debayer, add the -d0 switch. Also in this build there is a fix for the -s switch for set the DPX start frame number.

It is not CineForm's intent to be in any way be of less quality than that of Red own workflows. We apologize if it seems we were going for speed at the expensive of quality. This is beta, so there will be issues, but we intend to turn reported issues around ASAP.

Here are the new samples matching Graeme's test parameters (although I used After Effects, not very good with Photoshop.)

Stock images : http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/ComparisonsStock.png
Matching sharpness : http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/ComparisonsMatchSharpness.png
Unsharp Mask +500% 0.6 radius : http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/ComparisonsUnSharp500.png
Unsharp Mask +500% 0.6 radius Saturation +50 : http://www.miscdata.com/cineform/ComparisonsUnSharp500+Sat50.png

Please do these test yourselves, just in case I have messed up.

The new tool is available here: http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/R3DConvert.htm

[Jay A. Kelley]

:sorcerer:

I bet $100 there's a bunch of people running like hell to that download site to get this thing on the chance RED tries to murder it!

:)

I know I did.

Thanks for the fixes David... I'll check them out A.S.A.P.

Jay

Jim, I have a lot of faith in you and RED.. I proved that long ago with $1,000.00... I have to believe, one way or the other, you will do the right thing. For all of us.

[jbeale]

fwiw... out of my own need (since Redcine wasn't working on 4k files on my box) I wrote my own utility, on my own, that does something similar to what r3d2dpx does, except I didn't bother to do any debayer, so the output is only 1/2 the input resolution, with a fixed colorspace (what Redcine calls "Camera RGB, Gamma = 2.0"). My utility is useful to me because it allows me to do immediate previews on my PC laptop of what can be processed more completely on other computers at some other time.

I did it because I wanted it and it didn't exist yet. I did it in my spare time over about a month (most of that chasing dead ends.) I was kind of proud of having done it, but being aware that the powers that be have a certain sensitivity on certain issues, I didn't want to make waves. I mentioned it privately to a few folks but I didn't announce it publicly.

I'm just a hobbyist programmer with some personal project. I'm sure people with actual resources can, and will do more... as they are in fact doing. David's program is already way ahead of mine, so there's little point in mine anymore. I look forward to trying his updated version.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I wish I could do that!

:)

Jay

[Who ME]

You know I can't shake the feeling that this decision was already made and we're being set up for the fall.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

We need this app. Pure and simple. It would be a shame to have it taken from us.

Jim, you asked me why the need was so urgent, and I answered it.

I can read the subtext of what you've written. Not only were you talking about who answered your phone, you're talking about who "didn't".

But we're here now and things change.. Got to change with them, for the good of the program.

My two cents.

Jay

Boom, this is why David answered the call.

Will this app. be taken from you?
I would think, no

[Jay A. Kelley]

Boom, this is why David answered the call.

Will this app. be taken from you?
I would think, no

I beg to differ, they just took it from us.

This is a sad day for RED..

Jay

[jbeale]

The new version of R3D2DPX is a clear improvement from my point of view. Here's one example at 200% view (PS resample: nearest-neighbor) comparing R3D2DPX v.103 from yesterday, the new v.104 from today, and Redcine.


http://www.bealecorner.org/red/Debayer-Compare-104.gif

This target is decidedly artificial; it is a red-blue zone chart, which is a stress test for GRGB Bayer sensors. Original 2k and 4k R3D files available here (above is from 2k R3D)
http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/index.html#Test_3

Needless to say, anyone wanting to use anything new in the processing chain (hardware or software) bears the responsibility to do their own tests.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Big improvement.. I see the same thing.. Too bad we've lost it.

Jay

[Frank Weeks]

Big improvement.. I see the same thing.. Too bad we've lost it.

Jay

Are you sure Jay? I just downloaded something (1/17/08: v1.04). I hope.

Frank

[number6]

In the forming of RED, when most were calling us a scam, Apple stepped in and embraced what we were doing. Hence, the Apple-centric beginning. But we also understand that the PC/Adobe world is important and should not be ignored. Which is why we spent considerable development energy on REDCINE... which started out as a PC based application with avi support coming. We have done our best, given the short history of RED, to try to balance our efforts.

There is no question that the future holds RED solutions for all workflows and platforms. It makes no sense to exclude customers. But you have to know that when we started we placed many calls to companies that were never returned. Apple answered the phone.

Jim

Your esteem in my eyes has always been high, and nothing has changed. Keeping ones word is old school. As much as I regret the alliance decisions you initially (possibly) had to make, I fully respect your decision to honor those agreements.

CineForm has other assists for us PC guys... it's not like there aren't options. And I am convinced you will create a pathway for all including Linux users as well, in time.

I'm used to not having things "my way" in everything, so it's no big deal to me.

[Who ME]

Folks skip
A003_C007_071105_001.r3d its an old version it had issues as it was.



look at:

http://www.redrelay.net/owners/0232/r3d/greenscreen_daylight.R3D

[Jay A. Kelley]

Are you sure Jay? I just downloaded something (1/17/08: v1.04). I hope.

Frank

Jim tells us that build 14 will render Cineform's command line app all but useless, he has all but threatened Cineform NOT to fix the build when 14 comes out.

There are solutions to this problem that do not involve Cineform, but REDUser.net is no longer the place to share them

I hate to say it, but we've been forced underground until REDCine becomes usable. That's all there is to say. Jim has done what he's done to insure the success of his business, now I must do the same.

Regardless of what these agreements of RED's are designed to do, my post decisions will not be dictated to me by my camera. It doesn't work that way.

Jay

Jay

[Who ME]

Jim tells us that build 14 will render Cineform's command line app all but useless, he has all but threatened Cineform NOT to fix the build when 14 comes out.




You sure about that....Think CF will lie down for Red. It IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

[number6]

Jim tells us that build 14 will render Cineform's command line app all but useless, he has all but threatened Cineform NOT to fix the build when 14 comes out.

There are solutions to this problem that do not involve Cineform, but REDUser.net is no longer the place to share them

I hate to say it, but we've been forced underground until REDCine becomes usable. That's all there is to say. Jim has done what he's done to insure the success of his business, now I must do the same.

Regardless of what these agreements of RED's are designed to do, my post decisions will not be dictated to me by my camera. It doesn't work that way.

Jay

Jay

A HAH! I KNEW IT! You aren't really Jay, are you! You are galexander and you have taken over Jay's body! Now you are going to write your oun bridge between R3D files and Cineform!

You'll not get away with it Moriarity! I mean, Chaos.

Watson! bring me my pipe. I'm having a nicotine fit.

[Jarred Land]

Jay.. take your medication. your scaring me.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay.. take your medication. your scaring me.

Jarred my friend, can't you understand why this is so very upsetting?

You guys just took away my post workflow. You're supposed to be doing things to help me, not hurt me. And if it hurts me, it will hurt others as well.

I am not chaos, but I am starting to understand how he feels... :)

Jay

[Jannard]

Jay... we are momentarily taking something away that should never have been. I was reminded that Cineform was told of the agreements last December and they chose to ignore our request for restraint even with the promise of being included when we were done. We are working on Command Line tools for PC. But if you are asking us to ignore our agreements, you are truly missing a major point in our business ethic.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

Jay.. if it makes you feel better im a Premier guy. and a Vegas guy. And an After Effects guy. I'm waiting just like you.

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

[number6]

J

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

Man... that is deeeeepppppp...

[Edgar Pitts]

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

Problem is that we have no idea when the egg will hatch.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay... others are using REDCINE with PC and no issues. We are momentarily taking something away that should never have been. I was reminded that Cineform was told of the agreements last December and they chose to ignore our request for restraint even with the promise of being included when we were done. We are working on Command Line tools for PC. But if you are asking us to ignore our agreements, you are truly missing a major point in our business ethic.

Jim

There are PCs that are working, and there are a number that are not, and these people have been asking for help for weeks now.

Jim, I've stated my case to the point of my fingers hurting. Let's cut to the end... It's clear a command line app can be written to support AVI / cineform / and other codecs. And it's also clear it can be written in about two weeks.

you have a lot of genius-types over there, and my camera will most likely deliver in 3 weeks. How about you get it done, or something like it, so I/we can edit the footage.

If you are not going to do this, can you at least do us the favor of telling us how long these agreements are going to be in place? If I have to wait two months before I can edit the footage, I will need to make some serious decisions.. But I promise you, buying a MAC will never be one of them.

My first RED footage will be blowing up a MAC in 4k.

(wow.. that felt good to type)

:)

Jay

[number6]

Problem is that we have no idea when the egg will hatch.

A watched chicken never boils. (Blame Jarred for starting this stuff):usd:

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay.. if it makes you feel better im a Premier guy. and a Vegas guy. And an After Effects guy. I'm waiting just like you.

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

I know the rule Jarred, get more things with honey instead of vinigar. But what's the worst that can happen to me at this point? They gonna take away my editing system?

Too late. :)

But don't worry.. I'm tired.. I'm done now. I can tell when I've lost, and it's clear tonight I've lost big time.

I just don't know what I am going to do now.. And I am very worried.
Jay

[Jannard]

We have stated that we are working on command line tools...

Jim

[Mark L. Pederson]

Problem is that we have no idea when the egg will hatch.

No you don't. But if you don't want to have patience - there are plenty of other cameras you can shoot with.

This is a a very NEW and DISRUPTIVE technology - do you expect the development to be predictable?

[Jay A. Kelley]

We have stated that we are working on command line tools...

Jim

Whatever... Have a good night Jim.

This is now my problem and I will have to work through it.

Jay

[Frank Weeks]

Jim tells us that build 14 will render Cineform's command line app all but useless, he has all but threatened Cineform NOT to fix the build when 14 comes out.

There are solutions to this problem that do not involve Cineform, but REDUser.net is no longer the place to share them

Jay


Thanks for clarifying.

I am attempting to build a new computer and have planed to follow your lead. I purchased CS3 but it is still sealed. Am strongly considering Cineform 2k to start. My main work will be 30 minute SD for broadcast. Speed will be very important. I am very confused about what works and what won't.

I respect Jim for honoring his commitments but I understand your frustrations as well.

I will be following your success. Best of luck.

Frank

[Rob Lohman]

We understand the importance of Windows, Linux, AVI, Premiere, Avid etc. etc. You can't however always have what you want in a specific amount of time.

I'm probably the strongest Windows (workflow) advocate in the company. I'm using a Mac daily and it's not my cup of tea. So I understand your feeling Jay. We really are trying to do what's best, it's just impossible to make everyone happy.

I will see what I can do in two weeks :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Frank, but right now, on this night, there is not much success to follow.

If that changes I will be sure to let you know.

:)

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

We understand the importance of Windows, Linux, AVI, Premiere, Avid etc. etc. You can't however always have what you want.

I'm probably the strongest Windows (workflow) advocate in the company. I'm using a Mac daily and it's not my cup of tea. So I understand your feeling Jay. We really are trying to do what's best, it's just impossible to make everyone happy.

I will see what I can do in two weeks :)

Thank you Rob.. But you have three I think. :)

Jay

[Jarred Land]

But what's the worst that can happen to me at this point? They gonna take away my editing system?


I remember when the Varicam came out and nothing could deal with its variable frame rates properly. And the DVX came out and nothing supported it's advanced 24p pulldown except for a single application for months ( thank god because thats how i was forced into Sonic Foundry Vegas.... Then the HVX came out and nothing supported P2 except FCP for what seemed like a lifetime.

Ive been there.. felt the pain, dealt with it. looking back it wasn't as bad as i thought it was. Ive switched platforms in the past because of cameras, because Id rather deal with a (temporary) pain-in-the-ass workflow with a great camera than working with a pain-in-the-ass camera with a great workflow..

To me the quality of the image is always number one, no matter how hard it takes to get there. But thats just me.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I remember when the Varicam came out and nothing could deal with its variable frame rates properly. And the DVX came out and nothing supported it's advanced 24p pulldown except for a single application for months ( thank god because thats how i was forced into Sonic Foundry Vegas.... Then the HVX came out and nothing supported P2 except FCP for what seemed like a lifetime.

Ive been there.. felt the pain, dealt with it. looking back it wasn't as bad as i thought it was. Ive switched platforms in the past because of cameras, because Id rather deal with a (temporary) pain-in-the-ass workflow than working with a pain-in-the-ass camera with a great workflow..

To me the quality of the image is always number one, no matter how hard it takes to get there. But thats just me.

I understand your point. Its just the first time I have had a great solution in my hands, and then lost it.

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

I understand your point. Its just the first time I have had a great solution in my hands, and then lost it.

Jay

Jay, if you are sincerely interested, and not just fixated on Cineform, which in my opinion, is far from a "great" solution, I will help you get up and running.

I understand you are frustrated. But I think your perspective is really off.

Anyway, I am offering to help you if you are interested. We are running REDCINE on XP and OSX.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I never turn down help Mark. Thank you.

Just know that MAC is not at option for me at this time. I need to stay with Adobe / PC

Jay

[dudeman]

Jay, if you are sincerely interested, and not just fixated on Cineform, which in my opinion, is far from a "great" solution, I will help you get up and running.

I understand you are frustrated. But I think your perspective is really off.

Anyway, I am offering to help you if you are interested. We are running REDCINE on XP and OSX.

Jay, the above has to be great news... I know you do not feel like it but nobody here is going to let you fall or fail. Red will not let you down, redusers will not let you down. We support one another... good luck.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I never turn down help Mark. Thank you.

Just know that MAC is not at option for me at this time. I need to stay with Adobe / PC

Jay

I will help you with PC - that is what we run Scratch on.

And I can get you much Adobe love if you want it - let's talk Monday.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Pal..

We'll talk soon

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

get some sleep - TAKE A DEEP BREATH - it is gonna be better than you can imagine ...

[Rob Lohman]

Mark has a great team and is serious about his workflow shit. If he's offering to help you out take the man up on is offer. That's probably like saving $10K :)

[dudeman]

On a side note... Rob thanks for all your very hard work dude.

[Rob Lohman]

Thanks dudeman, much appreciated!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I remember when the Varicam came out and nothing could deal with its variable frame rates properly. And the DVX came out and nothing supported it's advanced 24p pulldown except for a single application for months ( thank god because thats how i was forced into Sonic Foundry Vegas.... Then the HVX came out and nothing supported P2 except FCP for what seemed like a lifetime.


Terrible comparison. There's not getting a workflow out in time and there is withholding a workflow. Completely different story.

Reducing choices (even inferior ones) would be a very disturbing position to take. I can't understand what legal grounds RED could possibly stand on to forbid reverse engineering. I can understand Jim not being able to recommend said solutions, but I'm not sure where you guys are coming from in possibly needing to actively supressi it. Am I in violation of *your* exclusivity agreements by opening an r3d without using REDCine? Am I going to be pursued by lawyers for opening a redcode file in a hex editor? Once the exclusivity agreement sunsets will I still be at RED's mercy if they don't like my application? These are legitimate concerns for third party developers who might very cautiously approach the platform if they can't ever feel comfortable. If the openness is in doubt, I think most peole would rather keep their little gadget to themselves than risk getting their hard drives boxed up and taken away as evidence.

It also goes back to the question of what REDUser is. Is it the Official RED Corporate site or is it an independent but RED employee favored site?

By all means offer your own command line tools, be proactive in providing solutions but shutting other solutions down would just wreak of protectionism and an effort to monopolize the workflow sending the exact opposite message to the community than you want.


Back on the topic at hand. The new version made massive strides. What's interesting is though that the REDCine version actually looks like it was a bit pre-sharpened in the debayer process, especially in the noisey bits. It could just be that Cineform is using a softer lower resolution de-bayer now and hasn't fully gotten it dialed in. Either way. The new version is worlds better and resolves all my concerns. If build 14 is going to obsolete build 12 I look forward to what Graeme and company have up their sleeve.

Now I'm just guessing but is the debayer quality setting just a piece of meta data? Could I playback in the lower 10% faster version and then flip a meta tag and render full quality for final comp?

[Jannard]

Terrible comparison. There's not getting a workflow out in time and there is withholding a workflow. Completely different story.

Reducing choices (even inferior ones) would be a very disturbing position to take. I can't understand what legal grounds RED could possibly stand on to forbid reverse engineering. I can understand Jim not being able to recommend said solutions, but I'm not sure where you guys are coming from in possibly needing to actively supressi it. Am I in violation of *your* exclusivity agreements by opening an r3d without using REDCine? Am I going to be pursued by lawyers for opening a redcode file in a hex editor? Once the exclusivity agreement sunsets will I still be at RED's mercy if they don't like my application? These are legitimate concerns for third party developers who might very cautiously approach the platform if they can't ever feel comfortable. If the openness is in doubt, I think most people would rather keep their little gadget to themselves than risk getting their hard drives boxed up and taken away as evidence.

It also goes back to the question of what REDUser is. Is it the Official RED Corporate site or is it an independent but RED employee favored site?

By all means offer your own command line tools, be proactive in providing solutions but shutting other solutions down would just wreak of protectionism and an effort to monopolize the workflow sending the exact opposite message to the community than you want.

Maybe I should speak more loudly?

We want a community that can add value to RED in every way possible. But we have agreements in place for certain things. We should have just locked the code down until we were done and then opened it up properly. We didn't do that because we didn't anticipate this happening. We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access". That has always been the plan. But having it opened prematurely just isn't good for the community. We are radically changing our code... Build 14.

We told Cineform this in December and expected them to honor our request. They didn't. So here we are. It doesn't change our fundamental philosophy. Why would we encourage it now when we aren't done?

We have been working on the camera, RED Alert!, REDCINE, Command Line tools, accessories, and communication in the most open way possible. We have acknowledged every error and responded to every valid criticism and suggestion in the fastest way possible. People at RED are awake all night trying to serve our customers. But this situation is just not right. If you consider this a failure on this issue... this is the very 1st time we will adamantly disagree. Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community.

We WILL support PC, Windows, Adobe, Avid (assuming they really want us to) and Linux. We will support 3rd parties in every way reasonably possible. But jeez... give us a tiny break.

Jim

[Gavin Greenwalt]

So REDCode will be encrypted in build 14 I take it?

I just want to know where the line in the sand is. Vague legal threats only spread FUD and cloud the format. And that's a haze that can be hard to blow away later unless you guys are nice and clear now.

Tell us what we can and cannot do and don't leave us guessing is all I suppose I'm asking.

I'm currently in the process of completley redesigning our pipeline at work to make fast, simple and clear. Obviously I'm not making decisions on REDcode right now, but I am keeping an eye on it and trying to stay up to date. It's easier to get a refresher than it is to start from scratch and I want to try and see where I should be leaving wall outlets now.

It's not a question of asking you to break your agreements. By all means you should hold to them and keep them air tight. But I never signed anything if you catch my drift and I don't know where the abyss is in the dark.

--

P.S. Nice dig at Avid... I'm sure Michael would assure you he and Avid don't care about RED at all and he's just here for the dinner mints.

[Edgar Pitts]

When do these agreements end?

[Jannard]

We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. A Command Line tool for PC is scheduled for February.

Jim

[planet e]

just got my hands on a RED camera finally, for the first time. there are issues, certainly, especially regarding some quirky audio issues. but overall, this is going to be a life-altering purchase. no exaggeration. what this camera does now, and i'm sure will be enabled to do in the future is awesome. simply awesome. but it's not perfect yet. and neither is the workflow. there is still a lot of work to be done, and RED is clearly dancing just as fast as it can....

then i came home and read this thread. what a letdown, to see this noise.

you have to let this evolve, folks. the camera isn't perfect. the workflow needs even more work, on the surface of things. the quest for the grail is closer to its beginning than its end, still. even with several hundred cameras shipped.

SO--

let these people at RED do their damn jobs, and set them up to succeed for all of us by honoring their agreements with their partners! anything less just sabotages the whole endeavor!

besides being addicted to your own drama, jay, why are you acting so shocked about something that you were explicitly told about the workflow being Mac-centric from the first minute that reduser went online? like it or not, that's the information that you were given. you made your deposit based on that information and now you're blaming RED for your decision?? did you think the magic fairies were going to bring you a PC-centric workflow when word one was, from the inception, "Mac first." this isn't news! i have now witnessed the magic they have worked first-hand. but it's just not finished yet.

you should either give them the room they have requested or get your money back, but this endless childish foot-stamping about how RED has "taken away your workflow" is ridiculous.

there is a magical lantern sitting in front of you and all you see is a bedpan. something wrong there.

[Jannard]

Audio hiss is fixed in Build 13. Read/reset (skew) back to normal, which means a bit more than a film camera and way less than most other CMOS cameras.

Jim

[Evin Grant]

They even outperformed Sony's HDCAM SR, which on Claudio Miranda's test outperformed REDCODE.

You are miss informed, (or have assumed) the F23 used in Claudio Miranda's test was recording dual-link HD-SDI to an S2 field recorder uncompressed.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wow, so this is where everyone is hanging out tonight. :huh:

Jay, calm down, talk to Mark... I also have REDCINE running just fine on two PC systems here, anyone can PM or email me and I'll try and help.

RED is working on solutions, I have faith in them. Build 13 arrived today, build 14 sounds promising. The command line tools are going to be huge -- render farm processing for REDCODE. Sweeeeet.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Any schedule on Quicktime (or AVI) for Windows?

[Jannard]

Any schedule on Quicktime (or AVI) for Windows?

As stated... February.

Jim

[Jeff Coatney]

The camera and the attendant Workflow will hit the street faster if it's ported to one platform first. Let the Development Team get it right from A to Z until its bullet-proof on a single, predictable platform. Once the variables are known, the entire workflow can be ported to other computing architectures with greater speed and efficiency. There's only one company in the world that makes Macintosh. Its stable, reliable, has great engineering talent, it's own highly professional Editing and finishing software and they want it to succeed. Its a no-brainer.

Jim and the Folks in Lake Forest are still working the original design brief. Their factory is more akin to Q-Branch than General Motors. Since Jim has included all of us in the development process, it's important to remember that we have a responsibility to him and all the exceptional talent that he's surrounded himself with. Our responsibility is to not make the task harder than it needs to be by diverting critical attention away from the goal.

The goal is: Deploy an operation 4K camera that is robust, reliable and established as a professional format and provide service and a professional workflow to support it. Period. Until that measure is attained, all other issues must take a back seat.

Individual needs for specific problems or work-arounds is a distant, secondary goal. They will be addressed, of course, in the not-too-distant future because that supports goal #1. But please don't put yourselves, your projects and the entire enterprise at risk because you need, want, crave to operate the technology beyond it's current envelope.

Jim has graciously included us in the development process of this wonderful product and when I read the boards I feel like the community isn't keeping up it's end of the bargain sometimes. Jim and Red Team are under a great deal of pressure from all of us who want this camera yesterday, from competitors, from market forces, from just bumping their heads on the ceiling of what's possible and then getting a chainsaw out and cutting a skylight into it. The most pressure has to come from their own desire and drive to win, so let's be better team mates and help them carry the load to the next milestone.

Cutting edge technology CAN and WILL make you bleed if you don't plan properly. Be patient and the promise of this entire endeavor will open up to you and all of us.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

But please don't put yourselves, your projects and the entire enterprise at risk because you need, want, crave to operate the technology beyond it's current envelope.


Operating beyond the envelope defines what I strive to do. Doing what hasn't been done and finding or creating the technology to get there is what seperates us from sweatshops in thailand. It's what defines RED as a company.

Funny when the RED camera goes up against arbitrary obstacles with Sony we get a rant... when RED users get treated seemingly the same way by RED we're the bad guys.

[Finner]

We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access" at or about NAB in April. A Command Line tool for PC is scheduled for February.

Jim

Thats what I figured. Looks like a big FCP red work flow and specialty tools to be announced at NAB. Way I see it FCP will have much more to offer red productions for the first few years and maybe more with its red relationship keeping FCP on top.

[Jeff Coatney]

Operating beyond the envelope defines what I strive to do. Doing what hasn't been done and finding or creating the technology to get there is what seperates us from sweatshops in thailand. It's what defines RED as a company.

Funny when the RED camera goes up against arbitrary obstacles with Sony we get a rant... when RED users get treated seemingly the same way by RED we're the bad guys.

None of that matters if the wings come off the plane while you're flying it.

[Jannard]

I think I will take a couple of days off from posting after tonight... :-)

Jim

[Casey Green]

Jay, you're getting quite a bit of airtime with the RED Team, and from what I can tell, they are responding in a very positive and understandable way, considering the agreements they have in place.

I feel for you. Your RED Camera is coming soon and you want to stick to your workflow. I have a good feeling you will have the tools in place by the time your Camera arrives, plus with the help of Mark and others here, you will gain some valuable pointers along the way.

[reality]

Jay, you're getting quite a bit of airtime with the RED Team, and from what I can tell, they are responding in a very positive and understandable way, considering the agreements they have in place.

Maybe Jay would be better off asking for his reservation back and shooting with something more conventional. If a customer is throughly dissatisfied with the product before even buying it, then it's doesn't make sense for either side to enter into that relationship.

[Jannard]

If any customer is thoroughly dissatisfied with our approach, we absolutely would prefer to have them choose another product. And no hard feelings...

Jim

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

then i came home and read this thread. what a letdown, to see this noise.

you have to let this evolve, folks. the camera isn't perfect. the workflow needs even more work, on the surface of things. the quest for the grail is closer to its beginning than its end, still. even with several hundred cameras shipped.

SO--

let these people at RED do their damn jobs, and set them up to succeed for all of us by honoring their agreements with their partners! anything less just sabotages the whole endeavor!

besides being addicted to your own drama, jay, why are you acting so shocked about something that you were explicitly told about the workflow being Mac-centric from the first minute that reduser went online? like it or not, that's the information that you were given. you made your deposit based on that information and now you're blaming RED for your decision?? did you think the magic fairies were going to bring you a PC-centric workflow when word one was, from the inception, "Mac first." this isn't news! i have now witnessed the magic they have worked first-hand. but it's just not finished yet.

you should either give them the room they have requested or get your money back, but this endless childish foot-stamping about how RED has "taken away your workflow" is ridiculous.

there is a magical lantern sitting in front of you and all you see is a bedpan. something wrong there.

AMEN! I can't believe half the stuff I'm reading in this thread, and this from a PC only/Sony Vegas user who is not likely to change either any time soon. Here, when the camera is still undergoing radical changes every few weeks and before real mass production has even gotten underway, there is a sudden tide of myopia and misplaced entitlement that would certainly upset and depress me if I were one of those working my ass off 16 or more hours a day to make this product the revolutionary instrument that it is already well on its way to becoming.

[Joel Smith]

Your sentiments are close to mine eclaire.

I see the entire A list of the Red team here after work in the wee hours posting in this thread trying to help Jay out personally and professionally and all that Jay can do is bark bark bark and bitch bitch bitch.

I hope Jay wakes up and has a come to god meeting with himself tomorrow because if I were RED, i would yank his reservation out of his non-appreciative hands. To many EXCITED people in line waiting patiently for cameras.

never before have we ever seen direct company support like this and i dont want a few sour apples to take that away from us.

RANT OVER!

[Ron Rocco]

Jay and David, you're making it worse for us PC users. I hate using macs as much as you Jay but this camera is revolutionary and it's obvious that to be cutting edge you have to be a bit flexible and patient.

I was seriously researching Cineform up until this thread. Now I'm disgusted. Any company that would illicitly hack another companies stuff to sell more seats is very slimy. I won't do business with Cineform now. The five seats of Cineform I had in mu budget are going straight to FCP licenses as much as it pains me to switch to mac.

[Paolo Tinari]

Nice first post Ron...

[Mark L. Pederson]

just got my hands on a RED camera finally, for the first time. there are issues, certainly, especially regarding some quirky audio issues.
planet e -

please post any specifics of audio issues you may be having under the AUDIO FORUM - we have been testing build 13 (tested the pre-release) with audio from mic and line - LOTS - and we have had no quirks with the exception that the camera defaults the headphones to -6db instead of 0 - I told that to Stuart - it may even be fixed in the release build.

Thanks!!

[Jay A. Kelley]

Good morning,

I woke up and read what's been going on since I went to bed. Remarks by a lot of understanding friends, and of course opinions by those who have either no sympathy, did not read carefully, or are just trying to make points with RED.

I raised quite a stink last night. Why? Simple, I was upset. I had something I liked and was using and it was taken away, which now means I must spend time looking for another solution, and in my world, time is money. I HATE losing money.

I was sorry to see the "refund" bomb dropped last night. Jim I wish you and I could spend 5 min on the phone. It's so horrible only knowing someone on the Internet, so much is left out.

I am one of the more loyal people you will ever know, but I am also something that, in my opinion is needed around RED, I am honest, and I give what, in my humble opinion, is earned by the vendors I work with. I am a fan, when it's worthy.

You have a lot of extremes but few "regulars" on here. You have those that feel RED can do no wrong (Like those people who's solution to my problem was to simply say "buy a mac".. Wow, must be nice to have daddy's money) and then you have those people are down on RED no matter what you do.

I'm the guy who says "I'm sold, I love it, but I have concerns, here they are". And cases like last night where a decision by RED costs me money, and I tear the roof off a little bit. (Of course I am not the only one like this, there are a number of "honest" REDUsers, but there's not as many as one might think).

Honestly Jim, think back on the times your vendors messed up a schedule and/or cost you a ton of money.. What was your reaction? :)

Last night I had some heated exchanges with RED, and while it's never fun, it is healthy. You know where I stand, and you know how strongly I feel about it. In return, I know where you stand and I understand your point of view.

We may not completely agree with each other here. And of course I am not stupid, I am very aware there is more going on here than agreements and quality. To say anymore than that would be unprofessional. I own a company and I know what to keep to myself.

I want to thank Jarred and Rob for going out of their way to be human enough not to listen to my facts and reasons, but to understand my exhaustion and frustration. Sometimes customer service is not about being right, it's about understanding how someone feels. You guys aced that. (Although Rob jumped on me pretty hard in another thread first.. Remind me not to play football with you!... Three weeks man... three weeks :)

I also want to thank Mark, a person who I can honestly say I am becoming friends with very quickly. And, someone I am beginning to work with as well. I look forward doing more with him. We'll talk Monday dude.

Jim, I understood your point about agreements and quality from your first post, but I was sorry you did not understand how I felt, and how frustrating it was and is. You may be doing the right thing, but that does not make it any easier.

As I said last night, I am done with this now. I will do what I always do, re-evaluate where I am today with the options before me, and then move to the next best path. I will profit from loss.

Jay

[planet e]

planet e -

please post any specifics of audio issues you may be having under the AUDIO FORUM - we have been testing build 13 (tested the pre-release) with audio from mic and line - LOTS - and we have had no quirks with the exception that the camera defaults the headphones to -6db instead of 0 - I told that to Stuart - it may even be fixed in the release build.

Thanks!!

offhollywood, it was not my camera so i am not having the issues. it belonged to a nice fella in the next town over, who let me come and play with it--and he has already done extensive posting about his own testing on reduser....and i was certainly not complaining or raising a red flag, only using my observations to point out that the community needs to stand behind this project and be patient while known issues are worked out....

[Brent J. Craig]

It's clear a command line app can be written to support AVI / cineform / and other codecs. And it's also clear it can be written in about two weeks.

you have a lot of genius-types over there, and my camera will most likely deliver in 3 weeks. How about you get it done, or something like it, so I/we can edit the footage.

Jay,

Why don't you just send in an exact list of the makes and models of all this hardware you seem so disturbingly attached to. The folks at Red can drop everything and write software for your exact setup. Doesn't matter if you have an unsupported videocard or not enough ram. They should just write some custom software just for you. It only takes two weeks and you're giving them three. Seems more than fair. :sarcasm:

Either buy the gear that is currently supported or wait until yours is. Pretty simple.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay,

Why don't you just send in an exact list of the makes and models of all this hardware you seem so disturbingly attached to. The folks at Red can drop everything and write software for your exact setup. Doesn't matter if you have an unsupported videocard or not enough ram. They should just write some custom software just for you. It only takes two weeks and you're giving them three. Seems more than fair. :sarcasm:

Either buy the gear that is currently supported or wait until yours is. Pretty simple.

Your sarcasm is both impressive, and entertaining.

Thank you

:)

Jay

[Jannard]

Jay... last night was just "one of those nights". I do understand your position and we are doing what we can to ease your pain. It is frustrating on our end to work so hard and have someone so disappointed. The circumstances that lead to this should have never happened, but they did. Let's all have a cup of coffee and relax. It is all good.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay... last night was just "one of those nights". I do understand your position and we are doing what we can to ease your pain. It is frustrating on our end to work so hard and have someone so disappointed. The circumstances that lead to this should have never happened, but they did. Let's all have a cup of coffee and relax. It is all good.

Jim

Thank you Jim... It's all good. Sleep helps! (You should try it some day) :)

I'm grateful for your post, and I have no doubt, months from now this will all be a distant memory.

I'm sure I will figure something out and make this all work. And I'm confident you and the RED team with do everything you can to help me.

I am grateful for the post. Thank you.

Jay

One thing I will never forget though, I was so angry, and venting so much. And SO MANY from RED jumped in to try to make me feel better.. There was frustration on all sides, it's clear, we all care.... A lot.

That has to be a good thing.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Me myself , i'd take whatever system i'd need to get my footage edited the right way.
However, I want to build a whole redcentric posthouse starting from september.
I need to plan like anyone else. Planning the construction of the industrial building right now...

I'd like to know as much as possible what will come. This forum has thought me a lot of stuff about the red and the comunity, I've been approached by Scratch a couple of times by now, also by a company that builds it & storage environments for them.
Not knowing what Red exactly will offer by then would be a real killer for me.
Investing min.250k in a network that's not my favour and the persons I work with would really be a pita.
Ok I have some sparetime untill then, but when making my calculations to include everything and to speak to the right people to advise me in doing this takes time and I don't wanna plan this with a certain company , when I'm not even sure this is the way to go, when another sollution is coming.

After having talked to Assimilate a couple of times by now,
them not being to clear what they will offer in the near future (4k output to SXRD4k sony projector or not...at what price???), I get a little scared on investments.... and iridas offering some nice sollutions for pc to work with cineform raw at about 11-13000k and being able to do about the same in some situations for broadcast..... We definately need someone to answer on this subject, especially the Scratch agreement what it exactly does mean and what it will bring us (or cost us when other sollutions will stick their heads up at a much lower price)....

[planet e]

those who have either no sympathy, did not read carefully, or are just trying to make points with RED.



so everyone who pointed out your lack of integrity in this matter is either careless, sloppy, or a suck-up?

"did not read carefully" -- what a load!!!!!!!!!!

maybe you're the one who should read a little more closely, what part of the endless reiteration of the "mac-centric workflow" did you miss before placing a reservation? seriously. can you answer that question?

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jeff, Mark, or Jarred, perhaps it's time for this thread to close.

All involved now understand one another.. Maybe it's time to move on.

Agree?

Jay

[Mark L. Pederson]

I really think I need a break from Reduser.

Whatever happened to calm, intelligent discussion??

Jay had a melt down. It happens to the best of us.

Is this really worth turning into another pissing contest and a PC vs mac thing ...

gimme a break! There are more interesting things to discuss on other threads!!

I am not going to close this because I am a participant in the thread - but if another MOD wants to close it down - I'd be happy as well.

[Jarred Land]

Whatever happened to calm, intelligent discussion??


Your talking to a room of Artists remember :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

I really think I need a break from Reduser.


I am not going to close this because I am a participant in the thread - but if another MOD wants to close it down - I'd be happy as well.

Fine with me either way, but I'm not going to dive in here anymore.. I've already added my gallon of gas!

Jim's cool, RED's cool, I'm cool.. Nothing further to say for me.

:)

[David Newman]

I must apologize for my involvement in causing some people a late night. This disruption is all due to poor communication between Red and CineForm, something have tried to address the past. Surprisingly, even with some similarities, our corporate cultures do clash. Fortunately the information we have been seeking was revealed last night, the length of time of the exclusive. Without this knowledge we felt we were left with no choice, and thus create the R3D conversion tool, figuring Red wanted us on our own.

Now are have some ideas of the parameters of the prior agreements, and Jim has said here that we are welcome to support REDCODE after/around NAB, along with everyone else, we are much closer to settling this in a way that will work for both parties. I will discuss with my co-workers once I get into the office, and then see if we can get hold of Red to work this out.

CineForm is committing to offering inexpensive, high-quality post workflows for all quality cameras. We are simply trying to work out what is best for Red One support and it customers.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim and David,

I do feel it's important to say, as a customer, that it's very important to me that both of your companies work together well.

I know this is not a popular idea on all sides, but from my perspective, you are more alike than different:

- You both believe in customer service and close contact with those customers.
- You both embrace forums as a way to communicate effectively with people.
- You are both open to change, and move quickly when nessesary.
- You both respond to requests from your customers and try to make the product what we need, even if it's not exactly what you envision
- You both have a lot of pride where your creations are concerned.
- You both have a strong competitive streak!
- You both care about quality

I could go on. I know things did not start smoothly with the two of you as companies, but it's so important not to hold onto the past. If communication lines between Cineform and RED were open and active, I just KNOW it would be a good thing.

I realize that certain agreements in the RED camp make a "close" relationship with Cineform difficult, but I have no doubt, that with enough open and honest communication, any problems, or conflicts of interest can be avoided.

Jim, David, and whoever else is involved in this decision...Please, try.

Jay

[Tim Bucklin]

Jay and David, you're making it worse for us PC users. I hate using macs as much as you Jay but this camera is revolutionary and it's obvious that to be cutting edge you have to be a bit flexible and patient.

I was seriously researching Cineform up until this thread. Now I'm disgusted. Any company that would illicitly hack another companies stuff to sell more seats is very slimy. I won't do business with Cineform now. The five seats of Cineform I had in mu budget are going straight to FCP licenses as much as it pains me to switch to mac.

Hi Ron,

I've kept my mouth shut through this and let David handle the situation as he's been the integral part in offering this workflow alternative.

I can't let his efforts and the rest of the hard work at CineForm be so erroneously represented.

This was not a malicious attempt to undercut RED and their hard work in getting this camera and accompanying workflow(s) to market. This was not a "slimy" effort to trump their software in an effort to sell seats. There was no "illicit hacking" -- anyone with a hex editor and atom parser (both freely available) can do the same thing. Another RED user did the same thing on his own because he needed it.

The truth of the matter is that some of our customers are also RED customers. As our roots have been in Premiere for our duration, it follows that these customers have PC-centric needs.

Just like RED has made agreements with specific partners that need to be honored, we also have a gentleman's agreement with our customers to provide workflow solutions for just about every source possible.

You can't expect us to maintain a loyal customer base by ignoring requests, and we don't intend to. RED's got the FCP workflow well underway, and for many it's working very, very well. However, there are people experiencing problems with PC workflows -- that's just the reality of it. Many of these users, who are also CineForm users and/or fans, approached us to help them out. Given the uncertainty of RED's plans, we did the right thing to help out our customers, partners, and friends. We thought it best to not only provide this tool to a privileged few, but to everyone in the RED community.

Ron, our tool is free. It works on every PC we've tested it with. It's a beta release. We don't even guarantee that it will work with future RED builds. It's meant to allow people who need to use their footage now, not in a month, not in April. The tool was originally ONLY a R3D to DPX converter (hence the name!) but to help our existing customers we added support for exports to various CineForm formats.

Please understand our position as an industry leader in providing workflow solutions and alternatives. But please also acknowledge our commitment to our customer base, and the video/film community as a whole.

I implore you to give this a second look, think about your comments, and re-evaluate your position based on my thoughts above.

As others have said, we trust that communication between CineForm and RED can improve in the immediate future so that we may both enable the best workflow options for the entire RED user base.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Tim,

Do not take this as an insult please, but, who are you?

Do you work at Cineform? Or just a believer? A small introduction would be good for those of us not entirely in the loop.

:)

Jay

[Tim Bucklin]

Tim,

Do not take this as an insult please, but, who are you?

Do you work at Cineform? Or just a believer? A small introduction would be good for those of us not entirely in the loop.

:)

Jay

Sorry Jay,

I've been a member of the CineForm team for about three years now. My focus has been HD Link for the past year or so, and I also take care of our internal database maintenance and programming.

I'm not on the forums much, but I will chime in when I feel that I have something to offer. I poke into DVInfo every now and again, but this is my first venture onto RED USER.

That said, I'm also a believer in what we do. I was a film and video novice when I started with the company (part-time, doing support and QA while I was still finishing up my engineering degree), but have been impressed with the strides we've made for the film and video community.

I hope to be of help to all of you in the future, and am looking forward to the open-hook code so that we can give you all a rock-solid alternative with the CineForm speed -- and visual fidelity -- to which you've become accustomed.

[Jay A. Kelley]

For the record,

I am one of the people who asked Cineform for help. After hour and hours on REDCine trying to get it to work, I finally managed to get past the QT Frame Freeze (Which has come back to haut me by the way). My plan was to edit in Premiere.

Also to answer those critics about me not being on mac, if you had been keeping up with my plans (which I post online): I actually plan to move to mac. But I have had to be very very careful as I spend money getting RED up to speed. It's a real juggleing act. My primary focus MUST be the camera first, but I also need a box for viewing and editing footage. Once there is a little work coming with RED I had intended to use the PC box as a developer system, and edit on Final Cut with a new system. Estimates for that system up and running are about $9,300.00 Ouch. Cineform was a good choice since the program came with licenses for both mac and PC. It would not be a waste of cash, and they would be up and running on mac by the time I got to it (6 months I expect).

Anyway

When I started rendering out files using QT, I was very unhappy with the codecs I had to choose from. It was ok, because I had intended to use Cineform and the AVI wrapper (Although I was not thrilled with the extra step, I was prepared to live with it for a while).

But, and I am not sure if this happened right away or what, I got a "can't write to frame zero" error when trying to write a cineform file.

I was not getting a lot of good advice on forum (Chaos tried to help a lot) so I contacted David Newman and he spent at least an hour on the phone trying to get REDCine to write the Cineform file. No luck. I was desparate for some sort of solution, and asked him if there was ANYTHING he could come up with that would make this work for me.

The rest is history. Of course I am sure I was not the only one... Just the loudest. :)

I will be contacting Rob to take another pass at getting REDCine to work again shortly.. Never give up.

Jay

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I was seriously researching Cineform up until this thread. Now I'm disgusted. Any company that would illicitly hack another companies stuff to sell more seats is very slimy. I won't do business with Cineform now. The five seats of Cineform I had in mu budget are going straight to FCP licenses as much as it pains me to switch to mac.

Ok I haven't read through to the end yet but I have to jump in right here. THIS is exactly the sort of bullshit and FUD that I just knew was going to happen. You can't make an announcement about the legal department being concerned without being specific. It immediately opens up this sort of uninformed and irresponsible speculation.

If Cineform has "illicitely hacked" REDCode than so have I. I don't appreciate my reputation being smeared and RED insinuating that I'm involved in unethical business tactics.

Jim you talk about respect. It seems to be your religion and then I come on the forums and I find you making posts like you have here. I have danced around the issue but here it is straight up: Don't make unfounded comments about the legality and ethics of an action publicly without being clear about what is involved. If someone isn't breaking the law. Don't mention legal action. It's as simple as that. You're slandering a wide swath of individuals beyond Cineform by suggesting that we're all violating some secret agreement that you hadn't even admitted existed until yesterday.

Let's recap what Cineform has done. They wrote a Jpeg2000 convertor. REDCode opens in notepad. It can be opened in other applications. I've viewed it in at least 4 unsupported applications. There is NOTHING illegal about it. There is NOTHING illicit. There is NOTHING slimey about it. RED can object and request that it not be done in order to create confusion and I and many others have respected that request because it could create mutant Redcode files in the wild. A tool which converts from REDCode to something usable has 0 potential for accidentaly splintering REDCode.

JBeale has written an internal tool to view redcode. I made a primitive Fusion tool to view redcode. I guess I'm slimey and illicit too. My opinion of RED has taken an enormous hit through this fiasco.

[Lucas Wilson]

There was no "illicit hacking" -- anyone with a hex editor and atom parser (both freely available) can do the same thing. Another RED user did the same thing on his own because he needed it.

Tim, I appreciate your passion for your product and your company. But, it really doesn't matter how easy it is to get into the file format. R3D is not an open-source format. So, if you're not doing this with the explicit permission of the company that developed the format, you're hacking it. You can draw a pretty clear analogy to a CDA track. Doesn't matter that it's easy to read. If you convert it to an MP3 and distribute it, you're crossing the line. There is no grey area.

The fact that RED has made the file format easy to understand with "just" a hex editor and atom parser is a testament to who they are as a company. The fact that they are trying to talk this out with you guys instead of just ramming a legal sh*thammer down your throats is testament to the fact that RED really *does* want to encourage open participation. Because if this were my file format and a company repeatedly ignored requests to stop screwing with it publicly, I'd cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.


The truth of the matter is that some of our customers are also RED customers. As our roots have been in Premiere for our duration, it follows that these customers have PC-centric needs. Just like RED has made agreements with specific partners that need to be honored, we also have a gentleman's agreement with our customers to provide workflow solutions for just about every source possible.

Regardless of whether you've worked out previous agreements with the owners of the IP for those products?


You can't expect us to maintain a loyal customer base by ignoring requests, and we don't intend to. RED's got the FCP workflow well underway, and for many it's working very, very well. However, there are people experiencing problems with PC workflows -- that's just the reality of it. Many of these users, who are also CineForm users and/or fans, approached us to help them out. Given the uncertainty of RED's plans, we did the right thing to help out our customers, partners, and friends. We thought it best to not only provide this tool to a privileged few, but to everyone in the RED community.

Your dedication to your customers is clear, and that's great. But you're missing the point that underlies this. R3D is not yours to do with as you please. It is somebody else's IP. And stop with the "free tool" thing. The goal here is to drive people towards your for-profit solutions. There is nothing at all wrong with trying to get more customers to buy your products. But when you do that by riding coattail on somebody else's product without their permission, that's not only not cool, it's almost always pretty clearly actionable.

If you were trying to do this with Sony or Panasonic and open up their formats and then distribute an alternate parser, your head would spin as to how quickly high-power IP legal firms would politely serve you with orders to cease and desist. And I think everybody looking at it from the outside would say, "well, yeah, duh - they hacked beyond the codec into the format itself." So why should RED be any different? They are a camera company with a crapload of time, money, effort, and aggravation that they have put into their format.

And you clearly think it's not only acceptable but somehow your "right" to reverse engineer their format, provide an alternate solution, post it on their forum to their users, and then get indignant when they politely ask you to stop? I just don't get it.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Lucas Wilson]

If Cineform has "illicitely hacked" REDCode than so have I. I don't appreciate my reputation being smeared and RED insinuating that I'm involved in unethical business tactics.

Gavin,

Remove the word "illicit." This is a very clear line. It's not your IP. It doesn't make you a bad person, or make your application evil or slimey. But if you are opening the file in an external parser of some kind and are then creating an application that is not officially sanctioned by the owner of that IP, then you're hacking it.

Again - doesn't mean you're bad or evil. But please recognize that R3D files are *not* open source.

You may or may not be "violating secret agreements." But you are diving into somebody else's IP without their express permission.

Again - the CDA analogy. I can open a CDA in a million different applications. But the minute I do something that file beyond normal fair use law, I have crossed that line. Will the record companies ever come after me? Who knows, but they have that right...

Lucas "always thought Napster was an abuse of artists' rights" Wilson
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

[Sean]

So when can I "legally" edit on PC again? Our camera is supposed to be arriving in the next couple months.

[tillHavis]

May I ask all parties involved in this discussion to take a deep breath and count to ten !!
It's helping nobody by bringing up claims and counter claims of hacking etc.

I'm sure if you read any of the principal people involved posts (Jim and David's) their is no mention of this. So everybody take a step back and think before making claims that can be take out of context and cause problems between the parties involved.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Gavin,

Remove the word "illicit." This is a very clear line. It's not your IP. It doesn't make you a bad person, or make your application evil or slimey. But if you are opening the file in an external parser of some kind and are then creating an application that is not officially sanctioned by the owner of that IP, then you're hacking it.

Again - doesn't mean you're bad or evil. But please recognize that R3D files are *not* open source.

You may or may not be "violating secret agreements." But you are diving into somebody else's IP without their express permission.

Again - the CDA analogy. I can open a CDA in a million different applications. But the minute I do something that file beyond normal fair use law, I have crossed that line. Will the record companies ever come after me? Who knows, but they have that right...

Lucas "always thought Napster was an abuse of artists' rights" Wilson
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

You're not helping here Luki.. I agree with Till, the goal now is to calm down and move on. Everything will work itself out in the end, there's no need to educate people on the definition of "hacking" thereby adding more fuel to this fire.

Jay

[Gavin Greenwalt]

No that's absolutely false.

It's not hacking it's Reverse engineering. If you show me the patents you hold on REDCode and where I'm in violation of them by decoding your file format then I've hacked it.

There is no legal basis for suggesting what has been done is illegal.

Opening an XML file for instance and parsing it is not hacking. It's opening. Understanding what field means what is reverse engineering and is 100% legal.

This isn't a question of IP. This isn't piracy. MP3 is protected because there are PATENTS on its implementation. Which have to filed and made public to be defensible.

Last I checked opening a REDCode file required no EULA agreement forbidding reverse engineering and Jpeg2000 was an Open standard. Perhaps you would like to direct us to a link to the relevant patents on the .gov site which I'm accused of violating.

[Mark L. Pederson]

So when can I "legally" edit on PC again? Our camera is supposed to be arriving in the next couple months.

????????????

You can cut on a PC today!!

Plenty of "tried and true" codecs you can render to from REDCINE.

[Sean]

????????????

You can cut on a PC today!!

Plenty of "tried and true" codecs you can render to from REDCINE.

!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good to know!

[planet e]

JBeale has written an internal tool to view redcode. I made a primitive Fusion tool to view redcode. I guess I'm slimey and illicit too.

gavin, don't take this the wrong way. you're a brilliant guy, and i have much respect for many of your posts.

but there is a large, large difference between quietly generating your own tools for personal use--perhaps even sharing them among friends--and generating those same tools through a corporate entity, for distribution and delivery to your "customers" (Cineform's own words...).

and doing so through RED's own de facto communication channel, while not at all illegal, is certainly just plain old-fashioned bad manners which appears to this interested bystander as a big "read my finger" to Jim's repeated requests to respect RED's development process.

as long as we are talking about basic respect....

he never said, "don't ever do this," what he and rob requested was a short delay.

RED is likely the most wide-open development process in the history of American capitalism. the amount of information they disclose is jaw-dropping. RED has no obligation to disclose its partnerships. and they certainly can't do this without partnerships.

[Mark L. Pederson]

but there is a large, large difference between quietly generating your own tools for personal use--perhaps even sharing them among friends--and generating those same tools through a corporate entity, for distribution and delivery to your "customers" (Cineform's own words...).

and doing so through RED's own de facto communication channel, while not at all illegal, is certainly just plain old-fashioned bad manners which appears to this interested bystander as a big "read my finger" to Jim's repeated requests to respect RED's development process.

as long as we are talking about basic respect....

he never said, "don't ever do this," what he and rob requested was a short delay.

RED is likely the most wide-open development process in the history of American capitalism. the amount of information they disclose is jaw-dropping. RED has no obligation to disclose its partnerships. and they certainly can't do this without partnerships.

Great post.

[Tim Bucklin]

Luki,

This is why I do my best to keep my forum participation to a minimum. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to PM or email me and I'll be happy to discuss your arguments with you. While I respect your point of view and position, I feel your post draws poor analogies and misrepresents some of the legal matters at hand. This poor thread (and forum as a whole) has been burdened enough by this senseless back-and-forth. I'm tired of it, and so are the people that we're all trying to help.

Best,
Tim

[Gavin Greenwalt]

while not at all illegal, is certainly just plain old-fashioned bad manners which appears to this interested bystander as a big "read my finger" to Jim's repeated requests to respect RED's development process.

as long as we are talking about basic respect....

he never said, "don't ever do this," what he and rob requested was a short delay.


But that's rewriting history. I have said over and over again. I respect RED's position and requests to wait--for our own good. I respect RED's position that they would prefer we not do this. The only part of all this I have strongly objected to is Jim Jannard's underhanded insinuations that *we're breaking the law*.

If I posted. "I think e is flagrantly violating my copyrights and doesn't keep his business agreements." I think you would be upset as well.

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this. Especially since nobody that I know of has broken any laws. It's FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt designed to push down and supress people with a different opinion. I'm upset by the way RED is handling this, not their position itself.

[Steve Freebairn]

Jay.. if it makes you feel better im a Premier guy. and a Vegas guy. And an After Effects guy. I'm waiting just like you.

You get the chicken by waiting for the egg to hatch, not by smashing it with a hammer.

Sweeet! So there is hope ( I know, we just need to be patient, but at least there's more hope now).

Some cool things I hope are in CS4

http://www.acvt.com.au/research/videotrace/

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/01/gridiron_flow_r.html

I am getting pumped for CS4, I saw a clip where they showed Inverse Kinematics in flash, and if they've got it in Flash, I'm positive they'll put IK in Ae. Also, flash is 64 bit, so I'm expecting Pr, Ps, Il, and Ae to all be 64 bit! Anyway, I'm way excited that Jared is a Premiere fan.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Assuming facts presented in this thread are accurate:

David Newman and the folks at Cineform may have laudable goals but there is no escaping one critical thing. RED, the rightful owner of the IP, asked Cineform to wait until the code was ready before building tools for commercial use based on it. They did it anyway. That's wrong.

Jim and RED have not gone scorched earth on this, WOW, that shows great maturity and respect for the community. I tip my hat.

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

Man... people need to calm down, let things go... learn to suffer a little... appreciate that we even have this privilege of watching at first hand the process this beautiful piece of blessing is undertaking and stop being so spoiled man... nobody in this company deserves the hassle they are being put through... if you can't edit the way you want to, then move on dudes (or dudets!), if you can’t wait, then go somewhere else and stop messing with OUR investments (though I still don’t know the # on mine, I have one nevertheless)... since when do clients go to a company and HARASS the living daylights out of them for not having something that was never promised to begin with... you ‘all are spoiled and my advise to the Red team is to get out of this foxhole before their morale drops. I thank every single one of you, for though you might never know it, you have given me a hope that was unimaginable in my past. Please don’t listen to these people, thank you for this opportunity. You are all doing a good job and patience is the virtue of the true giants. Think on this, you have touched the lives of others so intensely, that they can’t sleep at night and spend so much time reading and getting excited in this community. Though I recently joined, I have read so much… I am hooked! I am a PC user, but the Red is not about MAC or PC… I’ll use whatever Red says I have in order to get that kind of image in my creative control. The image Red is offering is what I am after, not 3rd party companies; those companies have their own respect for themselves, but if they didn’t want to be a part of this in the beginning and now I do, then the problem is not Red’s, its not the 3rd party, it is mine for I am the one that put myself in the position! ‘nuff said bub…

[vsv]

Rob,

I meant that Cineform is starting from REDCODE, an already compressed solution, and then adding their own demosaicing. If they were able to take the RAW feed from the sensor as REDCODE does, and as Cineform does with the SI-2K, then I think the quality of their excellent codec would be obvious. That's all I said. Being the original compressor from the raw source, Cineform is amazingly clean, malleable and high quality. Then again, so is REDCODE.

Jim, eagerly awaiting REDCODE AVI, or whatever you guys decide to call it...

+1!

Congratulation, David Newman! Fantastic job!
Now waiting for SOLID and Cineform Cam;)

[Steve Freebairn]

I will help you with PC - that is what we run Scratch on.

And I can get you much Adobe love if you want it - let's talk Monday.

Mark, can you get me some Adobe love if I freak out? (serious, I'll do whatever it takes)

[planet e]

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this.

i can see where that would push your buttons, but i don't think you would have heard the evil "L" word uttered if cineform had not rejected their initial requests. it is great to see that they have come to an agreement from this thread, but it does seem to have done a bit of damage.

other folks have developed and offered alternative tools but respected RED's requests to delay the release of those tools, and the whole issue just went away each time it came up...but i would add, none of those threads were deleted. most of those were good-will offers from individuals, not an actual product issued by a corporate entity. which is probably why they went away.

everyone has had equal opportunity to e-mail those folks and get access to those tools on the side. this moved what was already probably happening at the level of agreements between friends (and conceivably could have stayed that way quite amenably...) to a public commercial space. atlas shrugged.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The whole issue just went away each time it came up...but i would add, none of those threads were deleted.

That's not true. *THE* Redcode thread that I started and was working in is completely gone never to be seen again. Not just small thread with one to two posts I think 10-20 pages.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, can you get me some Adobe love if I freak out? (serious, I'll do whatever it takes)

Please don't freak out.

Please re-read THIS -

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7678&highlight=deep+breath

[Steve Freebairn]

Please don't freak out.

Please re-read THIS -

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7678&highlight=deep+breath

I was totally kidding, I'm actually really calm. I read that post and enjoyed it the first time.

I was more just getting at that I would love to have the nda knowledge that I've heard hinted at from some.

I'm a big PC Adobe fan, but I can see why Red is going apple first, every other big A later (it just stinks adobe wasn't smart enough to listen). More of the people that will be using our camera will be mac based, and I'd rather have them have it easy and smooth than me personally, since I can be patient.

It sounded like you might be telling Jay some good info about upcoming Adobe support or something great like that, that is what I'd being willing to throw a fit for :)

[Bob England]

Now, about those 500-600 cameras for February... :wink:

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

The only part of all this I have strongly objected to is Jim Jannard's underhanded insinuations that *we're breaking the law*.

If I posted. "I think e is flagrantly violating my copyrights and doesn't keep his business agreements." I think you would be upset as well.

The legal card didn't need to be played in all of this.

Gavin, let me preface this by saying that I've always respected your knowledge and substantive contributions to this forum. I'm only going to respond to this because I hope to spare Jim and company the task of responding on his own behalf, usurping valuable time that I would certainly prefer be spent building cameras.

Please point to the post where Jim says ANYTHING like what you have attributed to him above.

From post # 70 in this thread, he stated:


Legal has just informed me that we may be in violation of an exclusive agreement we have if we allow REDCODE to be "opened up to the market". The agreement has a time limit. I'm digging to see what this all means. More news as soon as I get to the bottom of this.From post # 102:


Jay... we are momentarily taking something away that should never have been. I was reminded that Cineform was told of the agreements last December and they chose to ignore our request for restraint even with the promise of being included when we were done. We are working on Command Line tools for PC. But if you are asking us to ignore our agreements, you are truly missing a major point in our business ethic.And, perhaps most apropos, from post 128:


Maybe I should speak more loudly?

We want a community that can add value to RED in every way possible. But we have agreements in place for certain things. We should have just locked the code down until we were done and then opened it up properly. We didn't do that because we didn't anticipate this happening. We will "present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access". That has always been the plan. But having it opened prematurely just isn't good for the community. We are radically changing our code... Build 14.

We told Cineform this in December and expected them to honor our request. They didn't. So here we are. It doesn't change our fundamental philosophy. Why would we encourage it now when we aren't done?

We have been working on the camera, RED Alert!, REDCINE, Command Line tools, accessories, and communication in the most open way possible. We have acknowledged every error and responded to every valid criticism and suggestion in the fastest way possible. People at RED are awake all night trying to serve our customers. But this situation is just not right. If you consider this a failure on this issue... this is the very 1st time we will adamantly disagree. Agreements are binding. Honor is based on one's ability to keep it promises. Period. This is about the community. That includes Apple and Assimilate. Countless hours and money have been spent by all of us on behalf of the community.

We WILL support PC, Windows, Adobe, Avid (assuming they really want us to) and Linux. We will support 3rd parties in every way reasonably possible. But jeez... give us a tiny break.

Jim

I added emphasis on the bolded portions to hilight what should be obvious: Jim was talking about the obligations HIS company has to HIS partners and what implications the actions of Cineform have on whether HE and HIS company are breaching THEIR OWN obligations. The key to it all was when he stated that they should have just "locked the code down" and then opened it up later when things were finished but that he "didn't anticipate" Cineform or 3rd parties jumping the gun like they had even when asked nicely not to. Right there you see that he is stating that he fears he may have been too damned trusting and courteous by (presumably) not encrypting the code and by allowing public betas of his software, thus practically facilitating early reverse engineering by 3rd parties that would have the same effect as an outright breach of his exclusive agreements.

What is so hard to understand or accept about his position? There is not one accusation that Cineform "broke the law" (and CERTAINLY not that you did) but rather that HE (or RED) broke their own contractual obligation to their partners by opening the code before the expiration of those contracts. Whether or not those partners consider Cineform's actions a tortious interference with their contractual relationship or other business tort was never put on the table by Jim Jannard. So your continued accusation that he has somehow libeled you is patently false and unfair.

[Mark L. Pederson]

It sounded like you might be telling Jay some good info about upcoming Adobe support or something great like that, that is what I'd being willing to throw a fit for :)

Don't get too excited yet. I am gonna speak to Jay next week and see if I can help him find a solid workflow that fits his needs right now. For the record, I am actually NOT under an Adobe NDA at this moment - but I am meeting some Adobe folks next week and I hope to change that - I am going to do what I can to help Jay regardless. No promises other than I will do my best.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Based on the tone of the comments immediately proceeding Jim's statement I would wager that his statements were clearly open to the interpretation that there were vailed legal threats against anybody decoding REDCode files.

Which is why my first post immediately following his was to the effect:

"Please clarify your position as soon as possible so that people don't get the wrong idea."

People started getting the wrong idea (hell even LUKI is still advancing the "You're all a bunch of H4X0R5" line.)

I'm just getting fed up with RED tossing out a vague comment and then encouraging the troops as they run with it. Jim should have come out and set things right immediately. You start something, it's your job to set it right. And if he won't I will stand up and defend myself and others.

You, Me, Jim, David--everybody is looking out for their own interests and I understand that. But if Jim isn't going to defend me, I'm not going to sit back and just let people run around making accusations and assumptions.

[Casey Green]

I really think I need a break from Reduser.

Whatever happened to calm, intelligent discussion??

Jay had a melt down. It happens to the best of us.

Is this really worth turning into another pissing contest and a PC vs mac thing ...

gimme a break! There are more interesting things to discuss on other threads!!

I am not going to close this because I am a participant in the thread - but if another MOD wants to close it down - I'd be happy as well.

I agree with the idea that this thread has run it's course.

Cineform jumped the gun (with the good intention of helping their customer base), Jay praised them in hopes that it would convince RED to approve it, RED was not ready and reminded everyone that they are willing to work with Cineform, just after their previous agreements have sunset and REDCODE is finished.

Now we are starting to discuss legality, which is not our area of concern, but REDs.

I put my vote in to close the thread. (Lets revisit this topic in 2-3 weeks.)

Sound good?

[Josué Ignacio Saldaña]

I agree with the idea that this thread has run it's course.

Cineform jumped the gun (with the good intention of helping their customer base), Jay praised them in hopes that it would convince RED to approve it, RED was not ready and reminded everyone that they are willing to work with Cineform, just after their previous agreements have sunset and REDCODE is finished.

Now we are starting to discuss legality, which is not our area of concern, but REDs.

I put my vote in to close the thread. (Lets revisit this topic in 2-3 weeks.)

Sound good?

I vote to close the thread as well.

[David Newman]

Closing is fine for CineForm also. We submitted our proposal to the Red team late this morning and look forward to their feedback.

[Ariana]

RED is likely the most wide-open development process in the history of American capitalism. the amount of information they disclose is jaw-dropping. RED has no obligation to disclose its partnerships. and they certainly can't do this without partnerships.


Many people find this very refreshing. Will RED be forced into a defensive postion to protect their IP? Lose-Lose all around.

Ariana

[Who ME]

Closing is fine for CineForm also. We submitted our proposal to the Red team late this morning and look forward to their feedback.

This may be best sent to closed land at this point.
I don’t think the legal armchair quarterbacking is good in the open, on a very speculative Forum.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I keep reading this thread and also think the thread has run its course.

[Jarred Land]

closed :)

thx Jeff.