RED, Cineform and others...

[Jannard]

Our goal for REDCODE, when we are done, is to present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access. That includes Cineform and other 3rd parties.

REDCODE is not done. It has been ever changing since day one. We do have agreements in place that should end about the time the code is finished.

We would politely ask Cineform and other 3rd parties to hold development until that time so they can develop proper tools and so we do not breach our agreements. The last thing we want to do now is be forced to lock down our code because someone is jumping the gun and building tools that will be obsolete with every firmware release or put us in a position where we are failing to honor our agreements with our partners.

We have stated that Build 14 is a landmark build with many improvements. There is a significant amount of code change in that build, which will render current toolsets obsolete. We do not want to have to explain why Cineform's current tool doesn't work after that release. We have our hands full making sure REDCINE, RED Alert! and our QT wrappers will work.

We are nearing the end of this development cycle and are asking for patience while we do the right thing. We will not breach an agreement, nor is it in the best interests of the community to build tools for a code that is not finished.

I sincerely hope that Cineform and other 3rd parties will respect our position, be patient and wait for the documented file format.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

Big surprise.

Then can we please ask for our cameras without build 14 until REDCine works with AVI files and is bug free... Since a non-working post workflow makes the camera pretty useless for those of us on PC and I will set myself on fire before I touch an apple (Especially now).

Jay

[Rudi Herbert]

As one of the very vocal advocates of Cineform and Premiere, I would also hope that Jim's request can be honored, for he's asking with nothing but respect and politeness, and thus should be answered in kind. I for one can wait a bit longer. And BTW Jim, what is build 14's ETA? Roughly, more or less, give or take?

[Edgar Pitts]

REDCODE is not done. It has been ever changing since day one. We do have agreements in place that should end about the time the code is finished.

When is the code going to be finished/agreements end?

[Jay A. Kelley]

As one of the very vocal advocates of Cineform and Premiere, I would also hope that Jim's request can be honored, for he's asking with nothing but respect and politeness, and thus should be answered in kind. I for one can wait a bit longer. And BTW Jim, what is build 14's ETA? Roughly, more or less, give or take?

I am pretty sure about this, but you do realize that Jim is not saying that Cineform can continue once build 14 is out. He's saying it can continue when they have finished REDCine's devopment cycle. In other words, there is no telling when you will have a workflow for Adobe / PC / AVI.

Bacially I will be getting a camera in a few weeks that I cannot edit with.

This sucks hard. My view of RED has really changed.

Jay

[Who ME]

Our goal for REDCODE, when we are done, is to present a documented file format with hooks that everyone can access. That includes Cineform and other 3rd parties.

REDCODE is not done. It has been ever changing since day one. We do have agreements in place that should end about the time the code is finished.

We would politely ask Cineform and other 3rd parties to hold development until that time so they can develop proper tools and so we do not breach our agreements. The last thing we want to do now is be forced to lock down our code because someone is jumping the gun and building tools that will be obsolete with every firmware release or put us in a position where we are failing to honor our agreements with our partners.

We have stated that Build 14 is a landmark build with many improvements. There is a significant amount of code change in that build, which will render current toolsets obsolete. We do not want to have to explain why Cineform's current tool doesn't work after that release. We have our hands full making sure REDCINE, RED Alert! and our QT wrappers will work.

We are nearing the end of this development cycle and are asking for patience while we do the right thing. We will not breach an agreement, nor is it in the best interests of the community to build tools for a code that is not finished.

I sincerely hope that Cineform and other 3rd parties will respect our position, be patient and wait for the documented file format.

Jim
\
Why would CineForm come into this ..they did not do anything they do not do as is

[Lucas Wilson]

I am pretty sure about this, but you do realize that Jim is not saying that Cineform can continue once build 14 is out. He's saying it can continue when they have finished REDCine's devopment cycle. In other words, there is no telling when you will have a workflow for Adobe / PC / AVI.

Bacially I will be getting a camera in a few weeks that I cannot edit with.

This sucks hard. My view of RED has really changed.

Jay

What is your editing application? Premiere Pro?

Lucas

[Jay A. Kelley]

What is your editing application? Premiere Pro?

Lucas

Yes. It is with Cineform as my codec

[Jay A. Kelley]

\
Why would CineForm come into this ..they did not do anything they do not do as is

I don't understand this post.. Can you re-phrase it?
Jay

[Who ME]

If you as CEO didnt see it....Thats your issue

[Ryan Patch]

As someone who grew up on Premiere, is Avid certified, and edits with FCP all the time, I can really tell you that it's not going to kill you to touch an apple for a couple of months.

Just think, RED could have waited to release anything to the public until everything was done, and you wouldn't have anything 'till later this year. You knew when you purchased that there was not a PC/adobe workflow in place, so why complain that you get a sneak peak and RED doesn't want 3rd parties building applications that will, in the end, be a waste of both sides' time and money?

[Who ME]

I don't understand this post.. Can you re-phrase it?
Jay

Of Coarse CineForm is going to support a new camera on the windows side. Thats what they do.

[Jay A. Kelley]

As someone who grew up on Premiere, is Avid certified, and edits with FCP all the time, I can really tell you that it's not going to kill you to touch an apple for a couple of months.

Just think, RED could have waited to release anything to the public until everything was done, and you wouldn't have anything 'till later this year. You knew when you purchased that there was not a PC/adobe workflow in place, so why complain that you get a sneak peak and RED doesn't want 3rd parties building applications that will, in the end, be a waste of both sides' time and money?

Tell you what... You buy it... I'll use it.

Jay

[jbeale]

> We would politely ask Cineform and other 3rd parties to hold development until that time so they can develop proper tools and so we do not breach our agreements.

Red has been a bit like the goose that laid the golden egg, so don't want to poke it too much... interested to know when "that time" is. Surprised to hear that Red takes responsibility for what independent third parties may be up to.

[Who ME]

> We would politely ask Cineform and other 3rd parties to hold development until that time so they can develop proper tools and so we do not breach our agreements.



Thats stooooooooopid.
CF didnt have accees to Reds code , nore could they breach an agreement

[Jay A. Kelley]

There's more to this than an agreement.. That's easy enough to see.. We've learned a lot tonight.

It's very foolish to think that this is just going to go away. The only way it can would be for REDCine to come up with their own command line that would support AVI, Cineform, and everything else we need.

The genie is already out of the bottle, and as long as you don't upgrade to build 14 you have a working post workflow.

I don't know how far RED is going to do to control this, but I do know that when a company's needs and desires separate from their customers, it's the beginning of the end of a good relationship.

RED'S only way out of this problem is to give us a solution equal to or better than Cineform and it needs to happen before the next shipment.

If they don't it's pretty easy to see what will happen, build 12 will be worth a lot of money! The camera works pretty good now, and a fairly good camera with a complete post workflow is better than a fully working camera with a crap post workflow. ( I am speaking of course, of us poor ignored, Adobe / PC users)

Of course, this is common sense. Also, Jim and rest of RED team, in case you have not figured it out. I am very very angry. And I hope you have the consideration to understand why. To many of you, this may all be a drop in the bucket, $6,500 here, $17,500 there, but to me, it's more than that. I just spent $2,200 on a new computer, a PC because I was told BY RED that REDCine worked. Well it didn't, and it still doesn't. I did what I was supposed too, and asked for help, none came.

Then a 3rd party company not only gives me what I need, but IMPROVES on it. I was so happy and relieved.. I finally had a handle on how I was going to make this all work, and how I could sell my clients.

Never in a million years did I expect that the camera company I supported for over a year would be the very group that would cause me to be in the position I now find myself.

And you know what really toasts my flakes.. I just KNOW that someone on RED is sitting there BLAMING DAVID AT CINEFORM for all this. And that's really sad.

And before someone falls back on that tired backdoor "If you are unhappy you can always ask for a refund and we'll give you your money back plus interest".... Damnit I don't WANT a refund.. I want this to work.. no wait, it does work now... I want this to KEEP WORKING.

I am a customer of RED, and my request is not unreasonable, and I have every right to be angry.

Jay

[Aiden Cornwell]

There's more to this than an agreement.. That's easy enough to see.. We've learned a lot tonight.

It's very foolish to think that this is just going to go away. The only way it can would be for REDCine to come up with their own command line that would support AVI, Cineform, and everything else we need.

The genie is already out of the bottle, and as long as you don't upgrade to build 14 you have a working post workflow.

I don't know how far RED is going to do to control this, but I do know that when a company's needs and desires separate from their customers, it's the beginning of the end of a good relationship.

RED'S only way out of this problem is to give us a solution equal to or better than Cineform and it needs to happen before the next shipment.

If they don't it's pretty easy to see what will happen, build 12 will be worth a lot of money! The camera works pretty good now, and a fairly good camera with a complete post workflow is better than a fully working camera with a crap post workflow. ( I am speaking of course, of us poor ignored, Adobe / PC users)

Of course, this is common sense.

Jay

Since Red's first camera's launched it was a known fact that Red has embraced the Mac and has a very close working relationship with Apple and FCP. I see this message as RED being proactive in stating that with build 14 do not expect any support from Red with any 3rd party apps until the code is finished. They are in fact doing what is in the best interest of their customers which is to finish the code.

Also look at Adobe which until CS3 did not work natively on intel Macs so those who relied on the Abobe work flow stuck to either PC's or the Power PC Macs until CS3 was born.

RED has come out with supporting FCP first and that has being the known platform to work on with RED. They did not hide this from you they are very open about this fact. If you are needing Red to fit into a pipeline now then the best pipeline right now is FCP.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Since Red's first camera's launched it was a known fact that Red has embraced the Mac and has a very close working relationship with Apple and FCP. I see this message as RED being proactive in stating that with build 14 do not expect any support from Red with any 3rd party apps until the code is finished. They are in fact doing what is in the best interest of their customers which is to finish the code.

Also look at Adobe which until CS3 did not work natively on intel Macs so those who relied on the Abobe work flow stuck to either PC's or the Power PC Macs until CS3 was born.

RED has come out with supporting FCP first and that has being the known platform to work on with RED. They did not hide this from you they are very open about this fact. If you are needing Red to fit into a pipeline now then the best pipeline right now is FCP.

I disagree completely, if you go to red.com you will find a REDCine for Mac, AND a version for windows. It's logical to assume that they built that with the idea that PC users could use it, it's also reasonable to assume that they told us it would work on PC since they built that version for that purpose.

Also I am not an idiot. I am fully aware that Cineform's command line app is in beta, and that it will change as RED's code changes. But facts are facts, it works, and if you had looked at tonight's version you would know it works very well. Nothing tonight was done "in my best interest".

That's it.

Jay

[Aiden Cornwell]

I disagree completely, if you go to red.com you will find a REDCine for Mac, AND a version for windows. It's logical to assume that they built that with the idea that PC users could use it, it's also reasonable to assume that they told us it would work on PC since they built that version for that purpose.

Also I am not an idiot. I am fully aware that Cineform's command line app is in beta, and that it will change as RED's code changes. But facts are facts, it works, and if you had looked at tonight's version you would know it works very well. Nothing tonight was done "in my best interest".

That's it.

Jay

Yes but from NAB 2007 they pointed to the work flow with FCP not with Adobe, or AVID. But I can understand where you are coming from.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Yes but from NAB 2007 they pointed to the work flow with FCP not with Adobe, or AVID. But I can understand where you are coming from.

Thank you...

Jay

[Rob Lohman]

My appologies up front for this post. We've poured our hearts into this and I'm getting emotional about all of this. We've worked so hard to get you the best quality and support we can and when we defend it to maintain that level of quality and support we get this....


The only way it can would be for REDCine to come up with their own command line

Which we have announced


I don't know how far RED is going to do to control this, but I do know that when a company's needs and desires separate from their customers, it's the beginning of the end of a good relationship.

Let me get this straight. You don't want us to guard quality and make sure we can support your workflow?


I am speaking of course, of us poor ignored, Adobe / PC users)

Just like we don't have a conform solution for Mac OS? (ie, Scratch). We've been very clear that we're not ignoring the Windows users but that we needed time to stabilize everything before opening up. If we had not done that you would not have had anything AT ALL (like so many new cameras coming out). Would that have made you happy?


a PC because I was told BY RED that REDCine worked. Well it didn't, and it still doesn't. I did what I was supposed too, and asked for help, none came.

Where did we say this? We clearly state the product is in BETA. Heck, it shows so on the logo screen when the app starts. We are very responsive here on this forum regarding support and we have a kick-ass support team.

I have publically stated we are working on the only problem we have with REDCINE (QuickTime output).


I finally had a handle on how I was going to make this all work, and how I could sell my clients.

By using an unsupported workflow that can break at any time with thus far inferior image quality? How does that help your clients exactly? Instead of spending $2K+ on a PC you could've spend the same amount of money on a Mac and be ready to go to deliver high quality images to your clients with full RED support. It's not like this subject hasn't been talked about in the last 6 months...


I disagree completely, if you go to red.com you will find a REDCine for Mac, AND a version for windows. It's logical to assume that they built that with the idea that PC users could use it, it's also reasonable to assume that they told us it would work on PC since they built that version for that purpose.

Yes, and it works fine 99% of the time. But not always, that's why it's in beta. I've posted on this forum that we're hard at work fixing that problem. Guess what, all of this has now taken up valuable time of mine that I could've used to fix this problem, get 4K 16x9 support into RED ALERT & QuickTime codec, work on the command line tool, R3D trim tool and the SDK that would've properly done all of this.


Also I am not an idiot. I am fully aware that Cineform's command line app is in beta, and that it will change as RED's code changes.

And it's okay that doesn't work? And you weren't aware ours was beta? And since it is a beta our stuff can't have flaws? That logic makes no sense


Nothing tonight was done "in my best interest".

It was. However, your view differs. And you have every right to have a different view and feel what you feel.

It's a shame we weren't given the chance to support Windows the right way...

[Jay A. Kelley]

My appologies up front for this post. We've poured our hearts into this and I'm getting emotional about all of this. We've worked so hard to get you the best quality and support we can and when we defend it to maintain that level of quality and support we get this....



Which we have announced



Let me get this straight. You don't want us to guard quality and make sure we can support your workflow?



Just like we don't have a conform solution for Mac OS? (ie, Scratch). We've been very clear that we're not ignoring the Windows users but that we needed time to stabilize everything before opening up. If we had not done that you would not have had anything AT ALL (like so many new cameras coming out). Would that have made you happy?



Where did we say this? We clearly state the product is in BETA. Heck, it shows so on the logo screen when the app starts. We are very responsive here on this forum regarding support and we have a kick-ass support team.

I have publically stated we are working on the only problem we have with REDCINE (QuickTime output).



By using an unsupported workflow that can break at any time with thus far inferior image quality? How does that help your clients exactly? Instead of spending $2K+ on a PC you could've spend the same amount of money on a Mac and be ready to go to deliver high quality images to your clients with full RED support. It's not like this subject hasn't been talked about in the last 6 months...



Yes, and it works fine 99% of the time. But not always, that's why it's in beta. I've posted on this forum that we're hard at work fixing that problem. Guess what, all of this has now taken up valuable time of mine that I could've used to fix this problem, get 4K 16x9 support into RED ALERT & QuickTime codec, work on the command line tool, R3D trim tool and the SDK that would've properly done all of this.



And it's okay that doesn't work? And you weren't aware ours was beta? And since it is a beta our stuff can't have flaws? That logic makes no sense



It was. However, your view differs. And you have every right to have a different view and feel what you feel.

It's a shame we weren't given the chance to support Windows the right way...

I'm done Rob.. Just do it your way. But of course, I am stating the obvious.

Good night

Jay

[Edgar Pitts]

This is not about quality - it is about backroom agreements...

[Manfred Lopez]

... and I will set myself on fire before I touch an apple (Especially now).

Jay



I'm done Rob.. Just do it your way. But of course, I am stating the obvious.

Good night

Jay

Jay,

I think it's hard to feel sympathy for you when you make statements like 'I'd rather set myself on fire than get a Mac'. It sounds like your current predicament is based on a quasi-religious personal choice that you made regarding operating systems, and not on practicality. So in the end it is YOU who didn't think of your clients.

...

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay,

I think it's hard to feel sympathy for you when you make statements like 'I'd rather set myself on fire than get a Mac'. It sounds like your current predicament is based on a quasi-religious personal choice that you made regarding operating systems, and not on practicality. So in the end it is YOU who didn't think of your clients.

Sorry buddy, I'm tired and this arguements run its course.. I could tell you your wrong, but then I would have to tell you why, and my fingers are tired.

So I'll just say goodnight to you and leave it at that.

Jay

[Manfred Lopez]

Sorry buddy, I'm tired and this arguements run its course.. I could tell you your wrong, but then I would have to tell you why, and my fingers are tired.

So I'll just say goodnight to you and leave it at that.

Jay

Okay. Just know that I didn't mean any disrespect or anything. It sucks when things like these happen. I feel your pain. I just felt that your tone was a bit on the loud side... but that is understandable. Now go and have some rest and tomorrow try to plan out your solution (maybe sell your PC set up and get a mac?) (or wait it out and look to borrow someone's settup to convert all the footage in the mean time?)

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think I'll just sit here and plot MAC's untimely demise.

It's not that I really hate MACs or anything, but I need a direction to focus this anger... I can't go after Jim cause he still has my camera. So I figure I'll go after MACs cause I don't know Steve Jobs and he's not here to defend himself.

And... Blowing up a MAC in 4k sounds like fun.

:)

Jay

[Greg M]

they have meds for this

[Mark L. Pederson]

Sometimes ... an ice cold beer and a good night's sleep are in order.

Tomorrow is another day.

[Jay A. Kelley]

There's an idea.. Pour cold beer on the MAC keyboard, THEN blow it up in 4k!

I love it!

(in case anyone's not catching this.. I am just playing)

Jay

[Finner]

This is not about quality - it is about backroom agreements...

Nail on the head with this one!

However it does seem to make sense to me that with red and mac being so clearly in bed together that a red owner will always be further ahead on the curve with a mac system compared to a PC. It just makes very little sense to me why any red owner would not go the mac route. It would be like buying a chev and being pissed that after-market ford parts dont work right on it.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well that assumes all your other software runs on a Mac.

[Jannard]

This is not about quality - it is about backroom agreements...

I'd hardly call Apple's native support for REDCODE a "backroom agreement". The same goes for Assimilate's contribution to REDCINE. These are pretty important "upfront agreements".

Jim

[Manfred Lopez]

I believe that the survival of a modern tech company completely depends on having strong partnerships and agreements and alliances. So there is nothing wrong with Red hooking up with Apple. In fact this makes me want Red more than if they had stayed completely company-neutral and asexual.

[Deanan]

Apple and Assimilate have been hugely generous with their time and resources to develop the RED workflow. We are spending alot of time with both to keep things moving forward so the workflows can become rock solid at the same time as working on future win/lin solutions as we've repeatedly stated. No surprises there. We've already said an SDK and win/lin tools are coming.

A number of future workflow partners have been respectfully and patiently waiting until we have the bandwidth to properly support them. They fully understand that diluting the resources and trying to support everyone will only result in weaker workflows all around.

[Tony Lorentzen]

All this makes me wonder if there are exclusive deals in place with Apple and Assimilate that will only allow them to have REDCODE enabled applications for a certain amount of time - giving them a sort of "head-start" in front of the competition...

[Manfred Lopez]

All this makes me wonder if there are exclusive deals in place with Apple and Assimilate that will only allow them to have REDCODE enabled applications for a certain amount of time - giving them a sort of "head-start" in front of the competition...

But they already have a head start. And it was announced in the open at NAB 2006... So what's the big deal? Would you rather that there was no advanced support from anyone just to keep everyone on the same imaginary start line? If Red were that kind of company they wouldn't have taken reservations in the beginning. All this is like if I were to start complaining that the first 200 reservation holders have an unfair advantage just because they made a 'deal' with Red early on. Well they did. It involved $1,000. Good for them for being there and for believing. So now Apple and Assimilate are like those 200 reservation holders, getting deservedly first crack at Red... and other companies are like late-number reservation holders... they'll just have to wait their turn.

[leojS]

We've already said an SDK and win/lin tools are coming.

By "lin" I guess you mean linux, if so - WoW that's pretty amazing! :blink:

[Mark L. Pederson]

Everybody wants a slice of RED PIE ... now.

But you know ... it wasn't always that way.

Some of us stepped up to the plate before there was a sensor -

[Manfred Lopez]

Some of us stepped up to the plate before there was a sensor -

Yeah, yeah. Just admit that you are the secret long-lost brother of Jim. :biggrin: That would explain the Serial #'s. :)

[Karl H]

Its been no secret that there has been more than a fair share of disputes between David And Graeme for a long time over their own codecs (or babys)

Red has made possibly the best digital camera out there and while cineform isnt making a camera, it is in some ways competing directly with Red by offering a codec which essentially is what Redcode promises to be in the future. Red understandably want to produce the best codec too, Graeme does not want to be outdone by cineform.

Red are commited to developing a free codec but currently Cineform trumps it in terms of speed/flexibility of post workflow, but also at a cost.

It is of no suprise to me that Red would not welcome this with open arms. You only need to see the quality comparison that was posted in a well mangaed PDF literally within hours of the cineform utility being offered. People are defending their babies. It was jumped on.

I think Graemes' goal is to eventually deliver Redcode which is every bit as good as cineform and offers the same realtime functionality for post production. Thats admirable because it will be free.

I'm not saying agreements are not in place here. Im sure they are, but it's also rivalry over who has the best code, and its intersting to see it unfold.
I think cineform is great, but make no mistake, Red's goal is to catch up with cineform and offer it for free. There is compeititon here.

[Karl H]

by the way I want to say Im a fan of both! I have my camera arriving in the next batch and Im really excited. If possilbe I'll use cineform for the moment as Im on PC. A bit of competition always pushes to give us better quality and more options.

[Tony Lorentzen]

I wasn't really insinuating that exclusive deals are evil or anything. I'm sure everyone at Assimilate has been working hard and put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into the project - which they'll hopefully get back ten fold.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I think Graemes' goal is to eventually deliver Redcode which is every bit as good as cineform and offers the same realtime functionality for post production. Thats admirable because it will be free.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read between the lines. Jim announced a 4K delivery system - details at NAB. Do you really think that 4K delivery system would play only REDCODE RAW media? Think about it ...

[Sean]

I've always been under the impression that RedCine would let me edit on my PC. That's why I reserved a camera. I don't want to re-invest in Apple computers as a stop-gap measure, nor re-learn an edit suite until a PC solution arrives. That would be very costly in terms of time and money. I will live with "compromises" so that I can edit on PC.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

A number of future workflow partners have been respectfully and patiently waiting until we have the bandwidth to properly support them. They fully understand that diluting the resources and trying to support everyone will only result in weaker workflows all around.

If Cineform requests no support, demands no help and promises nothing to its customers. It seems like you could simply ignore it taking no resources or time at all.

[Lauri Kettunen]

That would be very costly in terms of time and money.

Share this feeling with Sean. Have bit difficulties taking seriously comments suggesting: "I use computer XYZ and don't understand why some others use machine ZYX". For intsnace, in my case there's a very large archieve of wildlife footages taken over the years including HD footages stored as Cineform AVI-files. Changing from one system to another is not just a matter of taste, but instead as Sean says would be a costly in terms of time and money. So, wish mutual understanding.

[Who ME]

If Cineform requests no support, demands no help and promises nothing to its customers. It seems like you could simply ignore it taking no resources or time at all.

Agreed….

I am going to take a few days away from this and look at the other threads that seem to have some relevance to Reds continued improvements. Not the FUD that is being posted. Jim should have not started this thread.

As a Red user, you may not want to know what’s going on company to company. It may be better for your stress level to not speculate in it.

[Thor Wixom]

I am a HUGE fan of Premiere on the PC.

I have my camera, so the workflow issues affect me immediately.

My response? I'm not worried about it. I'll use the necessary work arounds until the workflow gets better.

I'm sure my patience will pay off.

Jim did what he needed to do at the time. I don't blame him.

Jim has a track record of taking care of his customers, and taking care of the issues surrounding the Red One, but a man cannot run faster than he has strength. Same for Red.

I'd rather have the Red in my hands and have to deal with temporary "inconveniences", than to not have it, and be stuck in an HDV world.

I'm also glad to see that Cineform has stayed on top of things. If they can do so much so quickly, I can only imagine how robust the workflow will be when they get the full green light from Red (which they seem to now be waiting for, and which I think is the right thing to do).

-Thor

[Frank Weeks]

I am a HUGE fan of Premiere on the PC.

My thoughts exactly.

And I too am willing to use workarounds at first. I just hate jumping into a situation where the workflow depends on future improvments. I know the image quality will be great but if it takes 2 or 3 times as long to post, it will be difficult to deal with.

[conrad gaunt]

A post for PC people wondering what platform to use:

SOME OPERATING SYSTEM observations: (that this threat has made me thing about)
NB, jump to **************** for short version, or, if you enjoy a medium sized rant..

I`m a huge fan of premiere, and I have always used Windows. I`m a programmer also. Switching OS`s is not what anyone really wants, but after using PCs for fifteen years, I`m not sure Microsoft actually create OPERATING systems anymore. Non-operating, artificial intelligences, maybe?!? Am I being dis-loyal to the OS thats always looked after me? No! I`ve stuck with it because of its market share, but its always been cr*p, which is why I never invested any time interfacing with Micrsoft APIs. Keep your secrets please, has been my proprietory philosophy on the subject, so..
The university I`ve been studying at use Linux. They advice Linux. They have many computer experts employed in the `Scool of Computing`.ok.
I recently enquired (to AVID) about a student license for SoftImage XSI, when I asked about running it on Vista, they laughed and said "does anything run on Vista". I said, maybe, but at the moment its `Not responding`. How we laughed. briefly. What will it run best on,I asked? Answer, Linux. So I`ve recently switched to Linux (Ubuntu 64bit & OpenSuse 32 bit, all free).

Vista is so bad it makes XP look good, but remember, it isn`t really GOOD. The Windows related questions I sometimes ask myself, go sort of like these:

1) Am I still in control of this system?

2) Where`s my RAM gone? Why are there 97 processes running when I boot up? Its a new machine! If I buy 2 gig of ram to manipulate 3D models in, why do all these unimportant, non critical processes start squatting in it. The system says I`ve only got 100mb RAM free. Calling all irrelevant processes, "get in the swap file and F*****f!".

3) Why do confirmation of copy/paste/delete/anything etc take so long to appear, I normally see them in the morning ,when actually I was expecting a 2tb file transfer overnight.

4) Why when I drag a window quickly does my system crash? My linux Windows can wobble like transparent jellies if I want them to, and I haven`t been able to drag one `too quickly`, yet.

5) Why do four hundred windows pop up when my machine boots, just f**k off and let me work, if I want to update/confirm something, I`ll click on it first(although that doesn`t always work), thats why I`m the USER (presumably in control, by definition, see point 1), and you`re the Operating system (see artificial intelligence joke earlier in post). Do your job, not mine!

6) Why do I talk to Windows (normally unpleasantly)?

7) Could I have transfered those 5000 .bmps by typing "copy *.bmp bmps", and pressing <enter>, ten years ago in Microsoft D.O.S, without the twenty minute delay that Windows insists on while it gets its shit together, and before it actually does anything.

8) Why do I expect Windows to get better?

and

9) Why doesn`t everyone at Microsoft go help Bill banish malaria into history, and stop screwing up computer science, cos it ain`t cutting edge if it don`t f*****` work, or respond in a timely manner to user input!!!!

I have answers for most of the above questions, if anyone was interested, but frankly I`m not anymore.

****************
The point I`m making:
---------------------
These two OS`s (Ubuntu 64bit & OpenSuse 32 bit), and Vista (as a hardware driver/safety net), oh thats three OS`s, are installed on my laptop (a triple booter). The important thing here is they share a single disk (although partitioned), and data can flow between these OS`s. When a Red quicktime sample doesn`t play in Windows, it usually does in Linux. The point is, you`ve got nothing to loose by switching OS`s, and everything to gain. Run them all. Its not that big a deal, and I hate change too.

Linux is UNIX based. Mac OS is UNIX based. Learn one, learn both. Install Windows, and Linux, on your MAC.

Ive also noticed, most software tools I create (for 32bit Windows ), seem to run far quicker in WINE (a Freeware Windows Emulator/Layer), running in Linux! I think this is hilarious. Think about it, Linux can run software for Windows (whilst also running Windows emulation software), more efficiently than Windows can run the software.

To be fair, Windows has probably become inefficient after years of trying/being backwardly compatible with software written for earlier microsoft OSs and hardware (although its been getting less compatible recently), which "was" probably its biggest strength. Since that compatibility is waining, and probably far less important nowadays, they should scrap it, along with NT based OS`.

To be slightly more balanced, I have a friend who used to be a senior British Gas computer systems consultant (in charge of a rather large national computer network), who was able to keep the network running, using Microsoft NT, and WAS able to remain quite positive about the whole thing. Thats not my experience as a micro user.

NB, I don`t work for Linux! ha ha :-)

> A tiny bit interesting (if true), factoid:

I read in the past (in a magazine) that a PIII 800mhz, if available ten years earlier than they actually were (ie during the cold war), would have required a special export license before leaving America because such machines would have met the criteria of super-computer (based on number crunching speed), and therefore represented a potential threat to American national security. Then again what doesn`t nowadays. Fortunately, vista can prevent serious use of processors, so we`re all probably a little safer.

[dino g]

there is one reason you use windows to edit, john sculley. without sculley there would be 100% market penetration of professional editorial work done on macs.

one person can make or break an industry/company. my bet is on jobs and jannard, whom are you betting on?

furthermore, throughout history great revolutions take place as a result of one man's passion and determination to make it so; henry ford, walt disney, tom watson, conrad hilton, bill gates, steve jobs, in our industry jack warner (sound in film), whom is driving your windows solution, steve ballmer and a committee of options millionaires that have no incentive to innovate other than more options?

history also tells us that great innovations are also cobbled up by passionate, well financed billionaires, stay tuned this drama is hardly over.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We've got a machine running Vista flawlessly.

XSI ALWAYS has terrrrrrrrrrrible compatibility. Especially with its license server. Everyone I know cracks it immediately because they can never get the license server running properly. They desperately need to fix it. It's also extremely finicky in Linux (again especially with the license server.)

Autodesk released Vista support for 3D Studio Max over a year ago and they released Vista support for Maya quite recently. XSI is the notable hold out if what you say is true.

I would hardly say that Vista makes XP look good. If you don't configure it properly sure you're going to have a bunch of bloatware running but that's why you spend 15 minutes with any new OS trimming it to taste, disabling all the security features etc etc.

I've noticed no performance difference at all between my Vista and XP Dual Boot. All of my drivers were found on the first boot. The only problem I had with it was when I kept putting off authorizing it until after the authorization period when it locks you out... and then it wouldn't detect my wifi card to authorize it from the login screen so I had to do it by phone.

Like you said no reason not to keep multiple options on the same disk but I haven't found all of the desperation over Vista warranted from my experiences.

[Jannard]

my bet is on jobs and jannard, whom are you betting on?



Please don't ever put my name in the same sentence with Steve Jobs... makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It is like putting der Weinerschnitzel (me) on the same menu with filet minion (Jobs).

Jim

[Jannard]

If you are a Windows user, for whatever reason, come to the dark side... Jarred did. :-)

Jim

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think you're being a little hard on yourself there, Jim. I've never met you personally, but you don't come across as the Weinerschnitzel type.

[Jannard]

I think you're being a little hard on yourself there, Jim. I've never met you personally, but you don't come across as the Weinerschnitzel type.

with onions...

Jim

[dino g]

time will tell jim, time will tell. now that you have saved all of our eyes from ultra-violet rays, your innovations to give us something pretty to look at, may prove even more valuable than the other things we need to edit and watch them.

if i had to choose between my computer and my eyes, i'd have to say my eye's would win. a personal thanks for letting me be outside 10 hours a day without going blind.

oh, and funny that you mentioned wienerschnitzel, red#0031 just shot 3 commercials for them this week, and their big boss is nothing like you...

[Jannard]

I'd love to see where Apple would be today if not for a decade long set-back... some stupid Pepsi guy.

Jim

[dino g]

agreed...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

with onions...

Well, cheers then! I take kraut on mine.


I'd love to see where Apple would be today if not for a decade long set-back...

I often wonder about the same thing. But they're kicking ass lately, I hope they keep at it and get those pro apps beefed up in time for NAB.

[Jarred Land]

If you are a Windows user, for whatever reason, come to the dark side... Jarred did. :-)

Jim

true.... and i've never looked back.

[I Bloom]

I see this whole PC vs. Mac thing on RedUser as kind of crazy. Use the right tool for the job folks. If the job is editing Redcode TODAY. Get a friggin Mac with FCP and stop crying. If you need Scratch, get a flickin PC. Carpe Diem, Life is short, get on with it, and live for today.

[dino g]

from the "AVI" entry in wikipedia....

"AVI is considered by some to be an outdated container format. There is significant overhead when used with popular MPEG-4 codecs (Xvid and DivX, for example), increasing file size more than necessary. Also the container has no native support for modern MPEG-4 features like B-Frames. To circumvent this problem, cumbersome (in terms of programming) hacks are sometimes used, likely causing incompatibilities with some players. Hacks are also used to implement language subtitles (which are an increasingly important aspect of reduced-size video packages typical of .avi and similar formats). The highly-efficient H.264 codecs employed in .AVIs use even more compression "tricks", and are thus even more ill-suited to the format; this is particularly true of H.264 Main Profile (MP) and High Profile (HiP) codecs."


windows gave up on AVI when they introduced Windows Media 9, with great fanfare in los angeles of all places in 2001 (http://www.news.com/2100-1001-943693.html). i over saw the highest profile implementation of the "better, newer format", wm9 by installing 26 DPI DLP Cinema projectors in indie theatres throughout the US for the theatrical release of the BMW film series in nov of 2002. (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/sep02/09-04BMWFilmsPR.mspx) i was working directly with VP's of WM for the implementation and i can't tell you how difficult it was to get the servers to consistently work, and they were the guys from microsoft whom built the codec...be done people be done, there is a new sheriff in town and it is red footy cut on a mac using fcp. (that was a period)

[conrad gaunt]

....We've already said an SDK and win/lin tools are coming.

Any `ball park` on when? Can Red one owners get hold of sdk?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I am a HUGE fan of Premiere on the PC.

I have my camera, so the workflow issues affect me immediately.

My response? I'm not worried about it. I'll use the necessary work arounds until the workflow gets better.

I'm sure my patience will pay off.

Jim did what he needed to do at the time. I don't blame him.

Jim has a track record of taking care of his customers, and taking care of the issues surrounding the Red One, but a man cannot run faster than he has strength. Same for Red.

I'd rather have the Red in my hands and have to deal with temporary "inconveniences", than to not have it, and be stuck in an HDV world.

I'm also glad to see that Cineform has stayed on top of things. If they can do so much so quickly, I can only imagine how robust the workflow will be when they get the full green light from Red (which they seem to now be waiting for, and which I think is the right thing to do).

-Thor

Is there a program that just changes the wrapper from QT to AVI without touching the encoded material inside? Just repackaging it.

Cineform said they're planning such an app, but there should be something similar out there already.

The rewrapping process would take some extra time but not as much as the re-encoding. And the re-encoding can potentially hurt quality.

I see this as a possible temporary solution, until REDCine exports AVIs stably.

For example:

Export DVCPRO HD or even DV Quicktime from REDCine ->

Rewrap them to AVI ->

Edit in Premiere or whatever ->

Lock Edit ->

Export selected clips in TIFF, DPX, etc. from REDCine ->

Switch in Premiere\AE ->

Grade\TWeak\Finish.

That would take more time, but it's a solution.

Whadaya think?

Anyone heard of such a re-wrapper?

I gotta google a bit on this.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Please don't ever put my name in the same sentence with Steve Jobs... makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It is like putting der Weinerschnitzel (me) on the same menu with filet minion (Jobs).

Jim

You're being a little hard on yourself there Jim... Besides, you're not dead yet. But if you don't get some real sleep soon.... Who knows?

Jay

[Dustin Cross]

I'd love to see where Apple would be today if not for a decade long set-back... some stupid Pepsi guy.

Jim

I'd love to see where Apple would be today if they had bought BeOS and used it instead of BSD for OS X. BeOS was doing AMAZING stuff with video almost 15 years ago. Apple tried to buy them for around $150m, but BeOS wanted more money. Apple went with BSD and BeOS went under a couple years later and sold their IP for something like $5m. OS X is great, but I really think a BeOS based OS X would be even better.


Mahalo,
Dusty

[David Newman]

Is there a program that just changes the wrapper from QT to AVI without touching the encoded material inside? Just repackaging it.

Cineform said they're planning such an app, but there should be something similar out there already.

The rewrapping process would take some extra time but not as much as the re-encoding. And the re-encoding can potentially hurt quality.

We had this for sometime. If it is a standard feature of the CineForm HDLink utility that is part of all our products. It is designed re-wrap CineForm media, in either direction.

On a related subject:

While is it nice to add AVI support to Reds tools, it is tricky to do correctly if you want more than 8-bit. 99% of applications just use Video for Windows (because it is easy,) which doesn't have deep pixel extensions. DirectShow allows you to support any pixel format, for any pixel depth. Our convertor tool used DirectShow in favor of QuickTime to compress and write 12-bit data to either AVI or MOV. If Rob need any pointers for adding DirectShow exports from RedCine, I have plenty of sample code.

[TedRed]

Reading and catching up on this, you all have gotten a pretty clear picture of where things stand currently, and all the various points of view, so no need for me to rehash any of that.

What I will comment on is that The Red / Apple integration is something the team works on quite strenuously on, just like the camera and it is not "done" yet. Rob, Graeme, Deanan and others on the team are on this in some fashion everyday, pushing the development forward.

Seeing how much work goes into making this happen, and how with each step another layer of the onion gets peeled revealing more soft spots that need to be firmed up should give everyone a sense that we are on the right track by working to get our first partners fully there before we move onto others.

We completely understand the desire for all the various software/hardware packages to get into the same level of support and functionality as Apple and Assimilate. Our position is that we don't want to pul our resources off those fronts and onto other fronts until we are satisfied that all is working to the level where we can all say - we are good here - ready to start supporting others in the field.

We are pleased with the first level of functionality, and many projects are being cut successfully using the fruits of the Development work with Apple and being finished with Scratch. More will come as those workflows are fully stabilized and we can dedicate resources towards other options for post.

+ Ted

[conrad gaunt]

We've got a machine running Vista flawlessly.

XSI ALWAYS has terrrrrrrrrrrible compatibility. Especially with its license server. Everyone I know cracks it immediately because they can never get the license server running properly. They desperately need to fix it. It's also extremely finicky in Linux (again especially with the license server.)

Autodesk released Vista support for 3D Studio Max over a year ago and they released Vista support for Maya quite recently. XSI is the notable hold out if what you say is true.

I would hardly say that Vista makes XP look good. If you don't configure it properly sure you're going to have a bunch of bloatware running but that's why you spend 15 minutes with any new OS trimming it to taste, disabling all the security features etc etc.

I've noticed no performance difference at all between my Vista and XP Dual Boot. All of my drivers were found on the first boot. The only problem I had with it was when I kept putting off authorizing it until after the authorization period when it locks you out... and then it wouldn't detect my wifi card to authorize it from the login screen so I had to do it by phone.

Like you said no reason not to keep multiple options on the same disk but I haven't found all of the desperation over Vista warranted from my experiences.


Your teaching grandma what to do with eggs here, but your right. I ran the Microsoft Vista performance test, scored one. Turned off a million services etc etc etc (stuff that takes longer than fifteen minutes too), scored 2.7, eventually. However, Windows is built on bad foundations, historically. Yes, your vista runs (mine runs better than my sisters, who has twice the mhz my laptop has, and four times the graphics memory and a beefy NVIDIA), but it runs much slower than Win2000 (on my other inferior laptop), which was more stable, but slower than win95. At some point microsoft are gunna let ME use MY processor, for what I want, instead of hogging more and more resources. Microsoft operating systems will perform better if they load everything into RAM, but my software won`t. Well, cool, but.. actually I want an operating system with a small overhead that does what its told. Doubling processor speeds is no good if the operating system overheads increase so much.
You are right about XSI license server, but Linux is the most stable platform for XSI, according to AVID and my experience (limited in XSI). I forget the drill for starting XSI, but it goes something like 1) run xsi 2) load task managr 3) stop several services 4) close XSI 5) Restart XSI (now it works, server bug by-passed). I`ll get the exact details if you wish.It runs sweet at Teesside University. I asked my XSI tutor what he thought. He said Linux. He`s a Dr! I think overall hardware installed on a PC does affect the installed operating systems differently, you may have a sweet setup. All my operating systems use the same hardware. OpenGL is MUCH faster in Linux than Windows. Also, XSI modeller. 3D apps are always demanding. Still, I don`t think Microsoft should release another OS until its more stable AND faster, than the previous version (and the version before that). Those nice people at Intel (ha ha ha) have managed to keep up with Moores Law, microsoft shouldn`t undermine it.

Most research in computing is carried out by industry, and not subject to academic scrutiny. Thats fine, but there`s a lot of BS in the world of computer science, especially about `best practices`, especially coming from vested interests.
What? If I change my hardware I have to phone up Microsoft and get permission? yeah right, really cool, count me out!.

[Steve Freebairn]

Reading and catching up on this, you all have gotten a pretty clear picture of where things stand currently, and all the various points of view, so no need for me to rehash any of that.

What I will comment on is that The Red / Apple integration is something the team works on quite strenuously on, just like the camera and it is not "done" yet. Rob, Graeme, Deanan and others on the team are on this in some fashion everyday, pushing the development forward.

Seeing how much work goes into making this happen, and how with each step another layer of the onion gets peeled revealing more soft spots that need to be firmed up should give everyone a sense that we are on the right track by working to get our first partners fully there before we move onto others.

We completely understand the desire for all the various software/hardware packages to get into the same level of support and functionality as Apple and Assimilate. Our position is that we don't want to pul our resources off those fronts and onto other fronts until we are satisfied that all is working to the level where we can all say - we are good here - ready to start supporting others in the field.

We are pleased with the first level of functionality, and many projects are being cut successfully using the fruits of the Development work with Apple and being finished with Scratch. More will come as those workflows are fully stabilized and we can dedicate resources towards other options for post.

+ Ted


I know you can't say for sure, but how many months are we talking before you guys release a Windows QT codec? From the above statement it sounds like, your saying 6 months or so.

[Joe Carney]

I think Vista is the best thing to happen to Apple in a long time.

If I had a worst enemy, I wouldn't wish Vista 32 on them.

We've rolled back the clock 20 years, and once again, having to help each other out with little secrets and hacks to get things working properly, or even installed at all. (I was told when I get ready to install Vista 64, turn off User Rights Management (URM) first thing. Saves a lot of heart ache.)

I make my living writing Windows based apps (Delphi, C#), I edit 2d and 3d on my windows based systems. But, computers are supposed to be getting easier to use, not harder. What the F##K is MS thinking?


But I"ve also heard that Leopard has it share of problems. In fact I'm reading where people are recomending not upgrading at the moment. Whats up with that? Did Apple go out and hire some programmers from MS or something?

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Another possible route would be just to re-encode the QuickTimes into AVIs for offline editing.

Yes, some quality will be lost but the offline editing stage alone doesn't require the utmost quality.

The workflow would be this:

1. Export DVCPRO HD QuickTimes or even DV QuickTimes from REDCine. Of the entire footage.

2. Transcode into AVIs - this would practically double the processing time, but hey, it's a solution [for now].

3. Watch, select clips and make the offline editing.

4. Lock edit and export the selected clips in TIFFs or DPXs from REDCine.

5. Finish.

That would work somewhat until REDCine gets to export AVIs.

The other options are the Cineform ones, but they're 600-2000 $ more. Of course they would be the preferred option if you plan to finish in Cineform. Some of the D-Cinemas here project out of CineForm files.

My 2c.

[Sven Seynaeve]

I'm mostly concerned in the uncertain future and the agreements between red and other companies. Just give us some dates please on this subject.
This is giving me a heacache wether and when is it safe to get a scratch system or not if I'm not sure how long it will last before some other application for a much lower price (like Red was meant to be...). I'm not to angry if I should purchase that mac from about 7-10k for a good working system, because I will use this a lot, even when I've just invested in a 12k€ pc system.
But being left in conversations that doesn't clear out everything keeps me busy and scared a little.
On some subjects Red seems to be very open, even when some bad things seem to happen, but then on the less proprietary talks they keep us questioning everything????

From what Jim said, as far as I've understood, the agreements would end when the code is finished.
We don't know exactly how many people are using Red day by day for now and who exactly is finishing all of his footage on a scratch.
But when the code is finished, which will be sooner than later, then this agreements would end....How could you profit then having a scratch when someone will definately show up with a similar system which would maby be even in quality or even better than your investment on scratch.

Anyway , I look forward being able to produce high end productions and getting the most out of this cam when I own it, and Scratch is not that high priced if you really need or want it, but we need to have some knowledge what is going to happen on this subject. The story from having a 4k cam at 17k doesn't seem to be the truth otherwise. Finishing systems may cost some money if you get them for their value, but they most be somewhere future proof. Why can't Red just post us some dates date verify and let us be able to plan our investments. I'm also looking at the sony 4k projector, so when is the delivery application and projection coming. I think it would'nt do you harm to let us know when you have scheduled this.

[Mike McCarthy]

This is giving me a heacache wether and when is it safe to get a scratch system or not if I'm not sure how long it will last before some other application for a much lower price (like Red was meant to be...).


I have to disagree here, in that Red and Scratch are under no obligation to tell you whether it is "Safe" to get a Scratch system. Any product you buy runs the risk of being obselete with a new release the next morning. That is why beta programs have NDAs. Otherwise it would hurt sales, with everyone always waiting for the next release. Other solutions for RED post with a lower initial investment cost will be available in the near future, if not already, but they are unlikely to have the same level of support as Scratch.

I plan to go the Cineform route myself, but I am not in a huge hurry. If you are, Scratch might be the thing for you. If you wait, it will likely be cheaper, but do you need a solution now?

[Dylan Reeve]

I'm late into this obvious, but I came around to RED's side of things on this issue quite a long time ago (I want to edit in Avid on a PC).

REDCODE is a beta format, it is still in development, and can (and will, in build 14) change at any stage. Releasing it to other parties now (Avid, Cineform, whoever) would mean that in the event of format changes there would be not two developers to work with, but 10 or more...

If all the NLE/codec companies had included RED support a few months ago, then when Build 14 comes out and needs to make non-backward compatible changes to the format it would break support in all products already in the market.

In RED's situation it's better to have only one or two beta testers (which is what Apple and Scratch are in this case really) than dozens.

I'm satisfied that RED are sufficiently aware of the needs of the market that they will be doing all they can to make it work for everyone. They seem to be indicating that they will be opening the REDCODE format up quite widely, which is very promising.

With this sort of things there are always going to be risks for early adopters, and to expect otherwise seems unreasonable.

[Stephen Gentle]

Ive also noticed, most software tools I create (for 32bit Windows ), seem to run far quicker in WINE (a Freeware Windows Emulator/Layer), running in Linux! I think this is hilarious. Think about it, Linux can run software for Windows (whilst also running Windows emulation software), more efficiently than Windows can run the software.

Too true - there's a good quote by Alexandre Julliard, the founder of Wine (which is a free, open source implementation of the Windows API):

Host: Given that you have never seen the Windows source code but that you've uh... reimplemented a lot of it; do you think Microsoft did a good job designing Windows?
AJ: Oh No Definitely not. Its a huge piece of crap and we find more crap every day
Host: Congrats on having spent 15 years re-implementing crap
AJ: that's the beauty of it, we try and make something nice from crap

[Hans von Sonntag]

Anyway , I look forward being able to produce high end productions and getting the most out of this cam when I own it, and Scratch is not that high priced if you really need or want it, but we need to have some knowledge what is going to happen on this subject. The story from having a 4k cam at 17k doesn't seem to be the truth otherwise. Finishing systems may cost some money if you get them for their value, but they most be somewhere future proof. Why can't Red just post us some dates date verify and let us be able to plan our investments. I'm also looking at the sony 4k projector, so when is the delivery application and projection coming. I think it would'nt do you harm to let us know when you have scheduled this.

Hi Sven,

NAB will be soon. Wait until then. In the meantime live in purgatory as most of future RED users do and keep making films.

If you need a working RED workflow right now, there are plenty (not always smooth) ways to go. Make use of faicilities that can offer you a RED workflow.

IMHO a 4K Projector is the last important gadet one needs since hardly anyone delivers in 4K.... :)

Hans

[gsellis]

Jim, let me correct you. If Steve is Filet, you are Standing Rib Roast. When prepared right, it tastes better and can serve the whole family for the price of one. But I will accept fancy German 'hotdogs' too ;)

For the rest of the 'whining', I think these guys are doing a fantastic job. Consider RED Coder Mr. Nattress. His strength is in the Mac world. I saw it a mile away that the first releases would tend towards being a Mac centric thing. Writing good code in something as complex as video is very difficult. The talent is a scarce commodity in the programming world. From just an observation, RED has been very careful not to snipe talent from the other NLE companies. It may make things slower to release, but it does not burn support bridges before RED gets to them.

What that means is that with a handful of coders, you can only get so much blood out of a single turnip. The Mongolian Hoard theory never works, and adding bodies to make it "go faster" is a false assumption. That means expect Mac first, expect a basic Windows next, expect pro Windows NLE support, then expect Prosumer NLE support. And it will not be ready next week. While it does not solve your need, at least you can understand why you cannot have it NOW.

BTW, my NLE of choice will not support RED, and that is probably never. They are going to stay 4:2:2 at the max. But, they are going to go to DX10 (they use DX9 heavily now) and probably 64-bit. It will be awesome. If I want RED (and could afford it on my home budget), I would need to invest in the rest of the tools too. It is just something you have to do with certain tools. You cannot run $49 tires on a Formula 1 car. Sorry.

[Eddie]

This is a big disappointment, but I guess I had somehow sensed it all a long.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7131&page=2

If Apple is so marvelous, then what are they so afraid of? Let them prove their worth in a fair race! Instead of running around making sure the competition is stalled.
It´s called third-party DEVELOPMENT not third-party DELAYMENT.

I am sure all the happy mac owners can come up with all the proper excuses, but at the bottom line: Red claimed to be PLATFORM INDEPENDENT!
People like myself have made large investments on the basis of this information, and now the least you can do for your disappointed customer is to lay out this agreement in the open. Because I would not like to run out and buy a macworkflow now, only to find out two months later the codec is "finished".

And what about listening to the customers. PC-based workflows doesn´t seem to be a small minority expecting special treatment- quite the contrary. So Jim, reconsider... it´s time to "Kill your Darlings"

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3583&highlight=poll

[laguun]

This is a big disappointment, but I guess I had somehow sensed it all a long.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7131&page=2

If Apple is so marvelous, then what are they so afraid of? Let them prove their worth in a fair race! Instead of running around making sure the competition is stalled.

Being rather platform agnostic, the main problem is:

Final Cut has no 4k, only 2K (the camera is 4k),
Final Cut has has no 10/12bit RGB, but only 8bit (the Camera is 10/12bit RGB) and FCP forces a colorspaceconversion to YUV for precision work, even when source and target are RGB.

Therefore, fcp simply doesn´t process the cameras images at the given quality, but eliminates 75% of the pixels.

Otoh, Scratch isn´t an editing platform and only runs under windows, which is a -big- setback for anyone used to a one-stop online (as discreet smoke, avid ds nitris, quantel eQ users etc are used to since many many years). furthermore, it has no 4k display and no realtime 4k playback (as dvs clipster and other offer), so you need to convert the redraw files anyhow.

red announced being an open system - the opposite is the situation right -now-. However, Jim Jannard and his team announced to open up the fileformat specifications no later than before nab.

My opinion is that this is all slowing down reds momentum - sadly.

[Troy Smith]

HI all,

I'm a little lost with all this, one dumb question for anyone that knows the answer, no matter what build etc comes out for the camera, will we always beable to run redcine on a pc and output any format qt file we want?

Or will even that feature been gone after build 14?

Sorry for the dumb ass question.

stricko

[Michael Morlan]

Stricko,

In short, at this time:

Only the RED Camera and RedAlert (Mac only) can create a QT proxy.

There is no RED RAW QT wrapper for the PC (and QT should be avoided anyway.)

Audio does not make it through REDCine. Rely on dual-system audio recording for now.

As I understand it, future versions of REDCine for both Mac and PC will create a QT proxy, export audio, and there will be a QT codec for the PC.

Hope that helps,

Michael

[Troy Smith]

Actually what I meant was this, right now with redcine I can export from red file to qt cineform rgb, i'm not talking to a qt wrapped raw file, just export the red file to qt cineform or any codec i like like prores etc.

Will redcine always be available on pc no matter the build?

[Antony M]

Back in 01-18-2008, 04:12 AM

My appologies up front for this post...


Guess what, all of this has now taken up valuable time of mine that I could've used to ... work on the command line tool, R3D trim tool and the SDK that would've properly done all of this.


It's now more than 2 years later, and the only R3D Trim tool available yet is a Beta from Yohance Brown (http://reduser.net/forum/member.php?u=4256) and Brian Heilig (http://reduser.net/forum/member.php?u=30405).