How do you read the Focus Assist?

[JFirestone]

This may be covered in more detail somewhere, but I didn't find it with a quick search, and the manual isn't helping me much either. Can anyone explain how to read the focus assist meter?

[Shawn Nelson]

It's hard to describe, set yourself up a scenario such that you have an object close (1-2 feet away), something medium distance (4-7 feet) and something further out (10 feet) then dial the focus and watch how the focus assist works.

I will say that the horizontal line is which line of pixels the focus assist is reading, so adjusting that will change where it is reading on the display.

[Nils Ruinet]

There hasn't been much talk about this Focus assist since it came out.

Is it really effective ? Do people use it as their main tool for focusing ?
Or do they still mainly use the Zoom feature ?

Nils.

[Mark L. Pederson]

There hasn't been much talk about this Focus assist since it came out.

Is it really effective ? Do people use it as their main tool for focusing ?
Or do they still mainly use the Zoom feature ?

Nils.

IMHO it is VERY hard to read effectively due to the size - if the waveform was superimposed over the whole image, then it could be used much more.

I have said it before and I'll say it again - pixel for pixel output of a user-selected portion of the frame out the EVF + Preview would be MONSTER KILLER COOL.

[Emery Wells]

As much as I love Graeme, I have to say there is nothing 'magic' about this 'magic focus assist.' Even if it were displayed larger, Im not sure this visualization model is all that practical. Perhaps the math behind detecting the portion of your image which is in focus is, but the way it's presented to the operator could use some rethinking.

[Shawn Nelson]

There hasn't been much talk about this Focus assist since it came out.

Is it really effective ? Do people use it as their main tool for focusing ?
Or do they still mainly use the Zoom feature ?

Nils.

Ditto to what Mark and Emery are saying.

When the focus assist was first released I published a glowing thread on it, and haven't really used it since. My first reaction was genuine, but I think I was more in awe of the new tech than a pratical working tool.

Truthfully, I find myself using the zoom-in tool and just using the LCD to get it in range (if I don't have time to pull tape), it get's me close enough, especially when downres'ing to 2k or less.

[Joel Kaye]

As much as I love Graeme, I have to say there is nothing 'magic' about this 'magic focus assist.' Even if it were displayed larger, Im not sure this visualization model is all that practical. Perhaps the math behind detecting the portion of your image which is in focus is, but the way it's presented to the operator could use some rethinking.

Yeah, I haven't played with it much so I've tried to refrain from commenting too much... but I do know if it was great people would be talking about it.

If anyone's ever used the Sony EX1 that focus assist is the best I've seen yet. It's similar to the JVC's but seems more sensitive and you can turn up the brightness. Within 2 minutes of working with that camera the first time I was tracking a moving animal real time - on the fly.

When people argue "hey, you just need a killer focus puller like film crews have" it bugs me for several reasons.

First.. there are probably 300 of those guys out there and RED wants to sell thousands of cameras per year. The math just doesn't work. Many situations call for the owner/operator to pull their own focus.

Secondly, the competition has this figured out and offers it in much lower priced cameras.

Thirdly, RED doesn't output full resolution and won't anytime soon... so focusing on low rez monitors means a good digital focus assist is needed.

I do agree that a pixel for pixel zoom that can target any part of the screen is needed, but I don't think it's as good as the EX-1 style focus assist which can easily be used to target any part of the screen during a live shot with changing framing. You just can't do that with a zoom feature.

Since we have to focus literally every shot this particular feature is one I'd consider a high priority.

[Nick Gardner]

joelnet,

Just so you know, I just did the rough numbers on Local 600 1st AC's (I did not count 2nd's, or those just listed as assistants) and there are upwards of 1200 union 1st ACs in the USA.

There are two camps on the focus deal. Clearly a lot of people on this forum come from prosumer, HVX etc. background. Thats fine, the more the merrier. The other group are film professionals who are coming at this from episodic TV and feature film world. I mean no insult to any of the indie/hvx crowd. But you have to understand where we are coming from.

We are not interested in this camera because it is cheap, we don't think it's going to allow us to go off and shoot the feature we always wanted to, we are interested in it because it takes the most filmic images (that I have ever seen at least) for a video camera, and we are going to have to work with it.

The work experiences of the two camps are very different. On a low/no budget movie people fuck up, it's no big deal we'll do another take, everybody's having fun. On a 6 million dollar movie (which is low budget by anyones standards) production is spending about $30,000 an hour on set. That means that if some little stupid thing takes an extra six minutes to do, and it happens only ten times over the course of the production that's $30,000 gone.

On big, big movies, the actor may only want to do a couple of takes. Talent leans in a little on CU and the First AC buzzes them? They see dailies, most likely that AC is now C camera second unit or fired. And talk about hemoraging money, everything has to be done yesterday, everything has to be anticipated, and the whole crew has to work as a single unit to kick ass.

I may of gotten a little off track here, but I think there is a lot of division between the indie crowd and the film folks, and I just wanted to point out that they are very different worlds on a lot of levels.

As far as auto focus on the red goes, I think it would be extremely difficult to get something to work for a chip that size.

Look at it this way, if there was any way to make a box that would make a 1st ac obsolete, producers would have figured out a way to use it 20 years ago.

Sorry for the semi-rant, Cheers,

Nick

[number6]

Look at it this way, if there was any way to make a box that would make a 1st ac obsolete, producers would have figured out a way to use it 20 years ago.

Sorry for the semi-rant, Cheers,

Nick

Nick, some would say that if there was a way to make a 4k digital camera, Sony would have done it years ago...

[Nick Gardner]

Good point : )

[Nils Ruinet]

Mark, Emery and Shawn,
thanks for the feedback !

They will probably improve it later, when the other features are done...

Nils.

[Jim McKinney]

[QUOTE=joelnet;140861]

When people argue "hey, you just need a killer focus puller like film crews have" it bugs me for several reasons.

First.. there are probably 300 of those guys out there and RED wants to sell thousands of cameras per year. The math just doesn't work. Many situations call for the owner/operator to pull their own focus.
QUOTE]

Maybe there are only 300 qualified focus-pullers in your market, but around the world, there are literally thousands of solid AC's. (And who knows, with the dissemination of the Red, there will perhaps be an opportunity for thousands more to develop).

If you want to shoot 35mm motion picture photography, you'll need a focus-puller, especially if you are shooting a feature. If you can't afford, find or develop a crew member to do that, then shoot your feature on mini-dv.

[Joel Kaye]

Sorry for the semi-rant, Cheers,


No need to be sorry for the rant but I would add that I never said "autofocus" - I said focus assist. I also didn't say AC's should go away. I simply said if RED wants to maximize sales it'll need to solve this issue especially when the competition has it solved.

Your point about making sure things are perfect on a big budget set makes MY point that the best focus assist system in the world should be in the camera. Based on your argument, if Sony puts a better system in the F23 and AC's have an easier time with it under pressure than the RED camera then maybe producers will rent it instead. Cost is not an issue, right?

Additionally, RED was promoted heavily to DVXuser and Jim's intended target was never the exclusively pro segment of the market. His point all along was to bring this camera to as many average users as possible. Now maybe that's changed and what RED really cares about is beating Arri and Sony in the high end.

But regardless - there's just no reasonable argument for Sony and JVC to beat RED on this critical feature. Except, perhaps, down at Local 600.

I am curious to test JVC's new portable 9" monitor HD-SDI that has focus assist built in.

[Joel Kaye]

Maybe there are only 300 qualified focus-pullers in your market

Well I've asked around (Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the U.S.) and there just isn't a film industry here so there literally are 1 or 2 full time AC's from what I've been told. They'd go to LA if they wanted that job. We're going to be using film school students etc.

Part of my point is I believe I can train people much more quickly if we have the best tools in camera. Look, when Offhollywood, who's done as much pro stuff with the RED as anyone is saying he'd like 1 to 1 pixel preview out of the camera there's a reason.

[Jim McKinney]

Well I've asked around (Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the U.S.) and there just isn't a film industry here so there literally are 1 or 2 full time AC's from what I've been told. They'd go to LA if they wanted that job. We're going to be using film school students etc.

Part of my point is I believe I can train people much more quickly if we have the best tools in camera. Look, when Offhollywood, who's done as much pro stuff with the RED as anyone is saying he'd like 1 to 1 pixel preview out of the camera there's a reason.

Perhaps there are some 2nd AC's or even loaders that might be able to rise to the occasion (not overnight, but with a little study or practice). I'm also hoping that once the EVF comes out, eye-focus or confirmation will allow the operator more confidence. For that matter, I've worked a couple of features where a DIT or assistant watched every take live on a big monitor screen to confirm proper focus. I certainly agree with your second point, and I'll have to admit, if I were shooting for projection, I'd be a bit neurotic about the focus as the system stands now. (I"d gladly do it - it would be an ongoing question in the back of my mind.) :-)

[planet e]

this is an interesting discussion, but i keep returning to this thread hoping that someone will give a detailed response to jfirestone's original question.

can anyone who is using this regularly with success explain how they use it? pretty please? when i played with a RED camera last work, it wasn't as obvious as i had hoped it would be...a good explanation would be a big help.

[Nick Gardner]

Hi joelnet

Yeah I think I transposed my auto focus angst onto your post ;-) I am not against any type of focus assist as long as I don't have to look at it as an operator.

Cheers,

Nick

[Joel Kaye]

Yeah I think I transposed my auto focus angst onto your post ;-) I am not against any type of focus assist as long as I don't have to look at it as an operator.

Yeah, should be selectable for each output ideally. Then whoever wants to see it can.

Planet E - As far as how it currently works... I believe it's as simple as the tallest lines in the histogram are showing that the vertical line above it is most in focus. Setting up a simple test with similar items at different KNOWN distances from the camera should be the best way to observe what the focus assist is doing. You can check your lens focus distance marks verses what the viewfinder and focus assist are showing you.

[Craig Meadows]

Whew! I thought I was the only one not adjusting to the the focus assist. Seems like a good start but I agree the waveform is so small that using it reliably seems a hit and miss. My first job was a two-person run-and-gun and the zoom in feature worked real well. We also shoot a JVC HD100 and as mentioned its b&w focus assist with selectable color edge when in focus works great. If something similar to this could be implemented on the REDs zoom in feature that would be awesome.

[JFirestone]

With build 14 the Focus Assist is significantly better. The meters are now overlaid, and much taller, making it easier to read, and the focus area indicator disappears once it is set, so it isn't blocking the image. The only thing I'd like to see is that since the focus assist is now no longer at the bottom of the screen, there is room for the histogram to be onscreen too. Hopefully we'll get to have both on at the same time before too long.

[Irri]

I've never used the focus assist and neither have any of the focus pullers I have shown it too. I like the idea of a focus assist, but it doesn't fit into the situation I usually work in which is basically what arrinick describes.

The problems are:

I find myself zooming in and checking to see whether the focus assist is accurate or not. It should be the other way around.

Bringing up the focus assist, then playing with the joy stick until you get the red line in the right place takes way too long and any operator will start to get pissed off while he is trying to frame the shot. On set, I would say that you are expected to get a mark in about 5-10 seconds (with many varying factors). You can run a tape measure out that fast or open up the stop, zoom in and "eyeball" it.

[Rob Lohman]

That's why you have different options.... on set you can use the normal way of doing this if you want. But if you're just shooting by yourself it's great to have these tools available!

[Irri]

Absolutely, it can't hurt to have another option and I have thought there would be occasions where I might be able to use it with a little more practice.