Reselling your Serial Number?

[Courtland_17]

Hey there, didnt know if this has been answered yet our what. Just wondering if it's against any particular laws or user agreements to sell our serial number. We're sick and tired of waiting, having been told initially delivery was April of 07. :ranting2: The number is in the 1400's.
Anyone?

[Steve Freebairn]

If I understand correctly, you can get a refund. It seems a pity to have waited this long to give up at the end.

[Jan Reiff]

if you are tired now, you will be very awake when fedex makes ringadingding.

otherwise, #1400. i would take it. i have to wait longer, and some projects now won´t have red-images. so, a little tired, but i have some redbull here.

[Courtland_17]

No no, none of this refund business. Selling for profit. There's gotta be a market out there.

[luis bustamante]

I PMed you courtland.

[Dylan Reeve]

Someone from RED has said this isn't allowed in a previous thread.

[jbeale]

I believe your serial # represents a deal between you and Red, which is not necessarily a liquid, fungible or transferable asset. I suggest you confirm with someone at Red whether pre-delivery ownership transfer will be honored. In the past, they have said reservations are non-transferrable, your choice being take delivery or take a refund.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i rerquested this befor to make a policy with red BUT none reply for it

here is thread

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6890

[David Didato]

Courtland, RED has told me that "they would think we should 1376 by end of March". Not too far away.

You can't "sell" your reservation, but you can get your money back from RED. Or you could wait until you get the camera and sell it (most likely at a profit). I would keep it personally. I've likely already rented the camera I don't even have yet.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hey there, didnt know if this has been answered yet our what. Just wondering if it's against any particular laws or user agreements to sell our serial number. We're sick and tired of waiting, having been told initially delivery was April of 07. :ranting2: The number is in the 1400's.
Anyone?

Are you really sick and tired of waiting, or are you looking to turn a fast buck?

You're eligible for a 110% refund. Yes there have been delays, not everything has gone as planned, just as with any other product of this level. RED knows things haven't played out the way a lot of people had hoped, hence their refund policy.

How can you say delivery was supposed to be April of '07 when you are #14xx. That means you reserved somewhere just before NAB in '07 which was in April, so your statement makes no sense. If you put down a reservation thinking that delivery would be in only a few weeks of signing up, then you didn't pay attention. Edit> Yes, delivery of initial cameras was supposed to be right around NAB '07. But it was immediately apparent that wasn't to happen, RED kept everyone in the loop. You could have canceled at any time. Seems odd to wait all the way until the very end of your wait to do so.

You will probably have your camera by late March or first half of April this year.

Reservations are non-transferable, can't be technically re-sold or reassigned. Cameras are delivered to those who are on the reservation form. Any transfer of ownership voids the standard manufacturer 12 month warranty. With the relatively few cameras out right now, REDs are selling for a premium. That will probably change after 1000 units or so have shipped.

Not sure what you had planned for your #14xx camera, but at this point I don't see why you would want to try and cancel or sell. It's close to delivery, I'm willing to bet within 8 to 10 weeks. Maybe as few as 5 to 6 weeks, depending on RED's production.

I have a hard time believing that you can't make more by actually using the camera than by turning a fast buck by selling it. Especially with #14xx.

Just my $0.05.

[Shawn Nelson]

Courtland, RED has told me that "they would think we should 1376 by end of March". Not too far away.


My bet is shortly after NAB.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

hi thanks Jeff for your reply ..
so can we disscuss it friendly . why red loose refund money 10 % .
why can not help those want sell their numbers.
think of it as trade .some one don't want it now, and some one need it now
why we can not make arrangments for both.(i am talking about numbers holders) not about whose got their cameras .let them sell it and make some extra money

is it diffecult to arrange that for some fees ..???
please don't tell me it is difficult .i remmember that hard days when red refuses doing lenses marking (feets or meters) and there was total refuse from red and after long disscusion with owners red tried her best doing arrangment for that ...is it possible thinking of it .
sorry for spelling.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

is there a new delivery schedule i missed?

hi it looks like we will be late soo much . after hearing that.:angry01:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

hi it looks like we will be late soo much . after hearing that.:angry01:

yeah i am thinking of june o8

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7464

[David Didato]

I agree with Jeff K

They'll have about 400 shipped by end of Jan. The last schedule was 500 to 600 cameras per month February, March, April.
Conservatively: That means,
#900 by end of February
#1400 by end of March.
Just restating what I've been told. Good luck whatever you decide!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

hi thanks Jeff for your reply ..
so can we disscuss it friendly . why red loose refund money 10 % .

For the first 1400-something cameras, those given official reservation numbers before NAB '07, Jim said that RED would give a 110% refund of their camera deposit due to the delay.


why can not help those want sell their numbers.
think of it as trade .some one don't want it now, and some one need it now
why we can not make arrangments for both.(i am talking about numbers holders) not about whose got their cameras .let them sell it and make some extra money

I understand what you are saying. Actually, I kinda like the reservation swap idea... But it's RED that sets their policies and they have their own reasons and thinking on the matter. I understand why there is no transferring of reservations, it helps keep people from buying up reservations just to sell them for a profit, getting in the way of those who want to legitimately buy the camera for the intended price. At this point, that probably isn't much of a concern, but reservation transfers would just create more paperwork and other unnecessary processes at RED.

[Ben Goldenberg]

I don't see why someone could not sell their reservation number. This is a capitalist society. If someone has something to sell, and someone else wants it, they should be able to sell. Why would red care who buys the camera on what date as long as they are being paid?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The truth is swapping Res. Numbers would be a huge pain in the ass for Red and keep them off task that would be detrimental to us all. If it could be done without being a clusterfunk then Red would be willing to serve. :innocent:

Yep.

It's a means of honoring serious customers and keeping control. RED wanted their cameras to go to customers who would use the camera rather than picking it up (or even just the reservation) to turn a fast buck. It's nice to see such a hot-ticket item go directly to customers at the intended price rather than being bartered by equipment brokers or fast-moving speculators who would swoop in early on and buy up those reservations only to re-sell them.

They can't please everyone in every way. But I think their current system has mostly succeeded in appeasing the serious camera purchaser who truly wants to own and use a RED. Nearly 300 cameras delivered now and only a couple have been put up for sale. I think that says a lot about RED as a company and their community of customers / RED users.

[Brent@RED]

Sorry to hear that, Courtland. There are multiple threads where we have indicated reservation numbers cannot be transferred from the original reservation number to a third party.

Do you have the receipt you signed from when you paid your deposit? I would check and see if there is any language on it stating they are not transferable. I am guessing there might be.

Tongue in cheek aside, you made an agreement with RED stating you would not transfer. We are offering a 110% of your deposit as a refund to cancel your reservation, should you choose to. I would be more than happy to process that for you. Feel free to PM me...

BC


Hey there, didnt know if this has been answered yet our what. Just wondering if it's against any particular laws or user agreements to sell our serial number. We're sick and tired of waiting, having been told initially delivery was April of 07. :ranting2: The number is in the 1400's.
Anyone?

[Blue]

I like RED's policy on this and I'm glad you have it well covered. I hate scalpers. They make life difficult for legitimate purchasers and I just want them all to die...horribly.

[Blue]

PS. I'm not saying you are a scalper courtland

[Blue]

Are you a scalper courtland?

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

REDs policy is the only way to go otherwise it would all go haywire (or what ever you say over there)
I dont expect my RED until mid April #1832 or52 or what ever.

[Dylan Reeve]

I guess swapping reservations outright would be more acceptable, but still a pain in the ass for RED. But I doubt that's going to help Courtland - unless someone with a <1400 number doesn't really mind waiting a while longer - which is unlikely.

I guess people could do it unofficially, you know, take delivery and send it on, but that's probably a whole big can of worms.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I guess swapping reservations outright would be more acceptable, but still a pain in the ass for RED. .

why .? still a pain in the ass for RED
Look RED owners started selling cam's on EBAY for now it is okay but after while they will not have too
much profit cause red units unmbers going bigger in markets.
why i can not study that swapping instead of selling by illigal ways
let's RED policy come with swapping section that allow for swap and have thier fees like 4000 dollars for swap (2k for paperwork and 2 for serial number owner)..don't warry this will end soon when too much cams went out.
but i think it is still pain in the ass cause maybe some people will make it like trade business.if it was not controled well..:huh: .
i don't know it is somekind difficult:sad:

[Marc Berger]

Hi Courtland
I was tired waiting for over 20 years...until Red came up and developed the Red One! So, what does it mean to wait a couple of weeks longer?
Do you see something else out there like Red?
Cheers
marc

[Jeff Coatney]

Ownership has certain rights under the law. Once you own the camera, (take possession of it) you are free to do with it what you will. After all, its not being leased to you or rented, you will own the camera and gear. You also assume risk for loss.
Some states require a transfer of warranty from seller to third party buyer (I think California is one of them, I'll confirm this) if the product is still under the minimum mfg's warranty. I think many people may intend to buy this camera to use on a specific project and then sell for full price or modest profit after shooting.
The downside is: potential gray market could devalue a used Red if many Red's hit the market in poor condition. Always best to get a camera with provenance. Logging the shooting history of your Red would help with resale value if gray market emerges.
I don't think resellers will emerge in any significant number to affect pricing of third party sales. The camera is too robust and the pricing structure is already very aggressive for a new one. I think most people will keep it.
The rental market could drive out resellers if the rates are low enough to discourage it and a sufficient number of Reds are available to meet rental demand.
A producer should be able to decide to shoot with Red within a few days notice and not worry about camera availability. Clearly Red's intent is to have a broad saturation of product in the individual markets served.
I can't imagine the Red Service dept. turning away someone who was lucky enough to get a great deal on a used camera out of spite.
I believe that as long as you acquire the camera in a legal manner, Red will happily provide you with service and access to parts and accessories -- after their production schedule plateaus and demand has leveled-off and no longer requires a reservation system, of course.
The Red should follow the product cycle of other durable goods like planes, luxury cars, industrial equipment. If Red tried to micro-manage the resale market, they wouldn't have enough time for development and innovation, which is where their long term strategy should be focused.
Transfer of ownership is a fundamental reality and it will happen and it will be a great thing for Red and Red-Users alike.
People will gift or bequeath their Reds to schools, individuals, universities and companies will acquire them as assets in debt settlements and mergers, divorces and poker games. It will be a Red world in a few years and we'll all look back on all this hand-wringing and reservation nonsense and smile because we were here first.
And we'll say,"Remember when you had to wait in line for months to get one of these things?"

[Jeff Coatney]

Do you see something else out there like Red?
Cheers
marc

Forgive me for answering this question, since you didn't ask it of me, but I hear it often in conversation elsewhere. IMHO, even if there are competing cameras being developed, Red sits atop a very unique product development culture. While the technical parameters may be identical from one camera model to the next, the elements that determine which system will emerge as the unchallenged market leader have less to do with the technology than they do with the other design parameters that Red focused on at the front-end of the process. Materials, ergonomics, adaptability to current production methods, aesthetics, price, marketing, manufacturing skill, logistics, workflow design, attitude and so many other factors are what points to the Red being THE camera that is the best positioned new product to come along since the Macintosh or the Ipod.
I make no apologies for being a Red cheerleader. I marvel at what the organization can accomplish. They have a long, proven track record of making very high quality products that people want. We think because this isn't a "consumer" product, that they may be somehow out of their depth with a camera this cutting edge. I've seen other 4K cameras, working models and vapor-ware, and not one of them has done any design thinking beyond the size of the image. Build-able, Market-able, Usable, Deployable, and priced to capture huge market-share, Red comes out far ahead of any potential competitors. Every great general wants to win the battle before it is even fought. Time will tell, but my money is on Red.

[Omnius]

Hey there, didnt know if this has been answered yet our what. Just wondering if it's against any particular laws or user agreements to sell our serial number. We're sick and tired of waiting, having been told initially delivery was April of 07. :ranting2: The number is in the 1400's.
Anyone?

Give it up man.

I think RED policy on this matter is perfect the way it currently stands.

I myself, like many many others here have been waiting a considerable amount of time for our gear to get delivered to us.

I think it's worth the wait.

If you're not interested in using the camera for work as a camera operator, film maker, rental house, producer, director etc etc, and are here simply to turn a profit by either trying to sell registration numbers or immediately reselling the camera, then IMHO I think you may be here for the wrong reasons.

If you don't want to wait for it, then get a refund and LEAVE

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

If you don't want to wait for it, then get a refund and LEAVE
you understand me wrong way i am not serial number sellers Defender
i am trying to have it earlier and BTW

I WILL NOT LET IT GO UNTILL SOMEONE TAKE MY SOUL

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Some states require a transfer of warranty from seller to third party buyer (I think California is one of them, I'll confirm this) if the product is still under the minimum mfg's warranty. I think many people may intend to buy this camera to use on a specific project and then sell for full price or modest profit after shooting.

Yes, most states have such a law and it also exists on a national level in the USA via the Consumer Protection Act. However, in all instances I am aware of (including California), it only applies to consumer-level products sold through retail sales channels. It also doesn't apply in most situations to production equipment, tools and construction equipment, vehicles, or just anything produced and sold for industrial or commercial markets.


The downside is: potential gray market could devalue a used Red if many Red's hit the market in poor condition. Always best to get a camera with provenance. Logging the shooting history of your Red would help with resale value if gray market emerges.

This goes for any camera or any product in general. As far as reselling RED for a profit goes, I think that will pretty much be a thing of the past by the time 1000 or 1500 cameras are delivered. As soon as there are enough cameras available on the rental market and wait times on camera orders are only a week or two (or none at all), then there will be no premiums for reselling a RED. And like any other camera, the amount of use and the physical condition of a camera will impact its value. A lot of people are complaining about the non-transferable warranty... I kinda see the complaint, but that policy is right in line with most other professional gear in this price range.


The Red should follow the product cycle of other durable goods like planes, luxury cars, industrial equipment. If Red tried to micro-manage the resale market, they wouldn't have enough time for development and innovation, which is where their long term strategy should be focused.
Transfer of ownership is a fundamental reality and it will happen and it will be a great thing for Red and Red-Users alike.

I don't think RED is attempting to micro-manage the secondary market. They don't seem to care that cameras are being re-sold on ebay or here on reduser.net. The only obstacle is the full warranty doesn't transfer. But the new buyer can have the camera re-certified by RED and purchase a secondary warranty (currently 90-days). This isn't an uncommon practice or policy for high-end production gear.

[Omnius]

you understand me wrong way i am not serial number sellers Defender
i am trying to have it earlier and BTW

I WILL NOT LET IT GO UNTILL SOMEONE TAKE MY SOUL

My sincere apologies Bassam.

I initially entered a quote from you by mistake. I have since corrected that and directed my post to the proper target.

It was not meant to be directed at you :innocent:

[Jay A. Kelley]

The long and short of it is, you cannot sell a reservation. You can, however, sell a camera.

You will have to take delivery, pay for it, and then sell it.. That's what people do all the time.

However, with 1,400 cameras out there, the demand will not be the same as the fist 200. You may the deposit return plus 10% is a better deal..

Good luck

Jay

[Anthony Gratl]

I WILL NOT LET IT GO UNTILL SOMEONE TAKE MY SOUL

Wow, I've been looking for a backup forever.....assuming there are no transfer of warranty issues, where can I pick it up?

[Adrian T.]

Wow, I've been looking for a backup forever.....assuming there are no transfer of warranty issues, where can I pick it up?

There are import restrictions on souls, you know that? :clown2:

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

where can I pick it up?

with me inside my grave:rip_1:

[Courtland_17]

Are you really sick and tired of waiting, or are you looking to turn a fast buck?

You're eligible for a 110% refund. Yes there have been delays, not everything has gone as planned, just as with any other product of this level. RED knows things haven't played out the way a lot of people had hoped, hence their refund policy.

How can you say delivery was supposed to be April of '07 when you are #14xx. That means you reserved somewhere just before NAB in '07 which was in April, so your statement makes no sense. If you put down a reservation thinking that delivery would be in only a few weeks of signing up, then you didn't pay attention. Edit> Yes, delivery of initial cameras was supposed to be right around NAB '07. But it was immediately apparent that wasn't to happen, RED kept everyone in the loop. You could have canceled at any time. Seems odd to wait all the way until the very end of your wait to do so.

You will probably have your camera by late March or first half of April this year.

Reservations are non-transferable, can't be technically re-sold or reassigned. Cameras are delivered to those who are on the reservation form. Any transfer of ownership voids the standard manufacturer 12 month warranty. With the relatively few cameras out right now, REDs are selling for a premium. That will probably change after 1000 units or so have shipped.

Not sure what you had planned for your #14xx camera, but at this point I don't see why you would want to try and cancel or sell. It's close to delivery, I'm willing to bet within 8 to 10 weeks. Maybe as few as 5 to 6 weeks, depending on RED's production.

I have a hard time believing that you can't make more by actually using the camera than by turning a fast buck by selling it. Especially with #14xx.

Just my $0.05.


Thank you, Jeff. Your well-worded and poignant resonse was extremely helpful.
Thanks
C

[Courtland_17]

I understand, Brent. Thank you very much. This was a pretty lightweight question though. Our interest in selling was simply based off our own impatience.
Thanks
C


Sorry to hear that, Courtland. There are multiple threads where we have indicated reservation numbers cannot be transferred from the original reservation number to a third party.

Do you have the receipt you signed from when you paid your deposit? I would check and see if there is any language on it stating they are not transferable. I am guessing there might be.

Tongue in cheek aside, you made an agreement with RED stating you would not transfer. We are offering a 110% of your deposit as a refund to cancel your reservation, should you choose to. I would be more than happy to process that for you. Feel free to PM me...

BC