Format Wars - Whats your RED for? [Archive]

Damien Molineaux

03-02-2007, 03:16 PM

Exsqueeze me but 2K is only available in windowed mode so there are not two 2K options.

We'll be shooting 2K for our documentary films, at least until we have a Red zoom and have tried and tested the practicality of archiving on the road. The advantages being : with a good zoom you don't need to changes lenses, and long record times on Red drives.

However, I'm also putting together a set of Nikon lenses to shoot 4K for fiction, ads, etc.

As for finishing it will be mostly 1080p25 (and 576p25) but we do have a couple features in development which if they work out we plan to transfer to film for distribution.

Cheers,
Damien

Tom Lowe

03-02-2007, 03:18 PM

4K REDCODE and 4K RAW/Data Port if I have to for overcranking.

Jared VanLeuven

03-02-2007, 03:22 PM

Okay, here's my prayer: at NAB, they'll spring on us that they found a way to overcrank 120fps@1080p onboard. That continues to be my wish ... *sigh*.

Jiri Bakala

03-02-2007, 05:02 PM

Is there a table that indicates how much hard drive space will each available format require? And, what was the capacity of the Red drives again?

Brook Willard

03-02-2007, 05:08 PM

4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps = 27.5MB/s
RED DRIVE capacity: 320GB

No other formats relevant to this discussion are known.

MikeCurtis

03-02-2007, 05:18 PM

4K RAW acquisition, a little 4K post (roto, keys, stabilize, pan/scan), 2K/HD deliverable (but that can be 10 bit 4:4:4 RGB, not necessarily 3:1:1 1440x1080 8 bit HDCAM).

-mike

Evin Grant

03-02-2007, 05:19 PM

I will try to originate in 4k Redcode as much as possible, but most likely all my deliverables will be 1080P DVCPro HD or H264.

Jeff Kilgroe

03-02-2007, 05:36 PM

Okay, here's my prayer: at NAB, they'll spring on us that they found a way to overcrank 120fps@1080p onboard. That continues to be my wish ... *sigh*.

That would make my day... Or my week, or my year even. We can already overcrank to 120fps for 720p onboard, so I suppose it might be possible. I know RED doesn't do SD, but if they could push 480p to beyond 120fps, I'd be interested.

As for me, I plan to shoot REDCODE RAW 4K @ 24p most of the time. Will do 30p on occasion depending on the intent of the footage. For most of my projects in the near future, I'll probably scale to 1080p as I convert in REDCINE and save the 4K for archival.

I may also shoot 1080p RGB @ 60fps scaled from the 4K window. Since I can do that on-camera. I'd like to use the RAW port and do uncompressed capture when I need overcranking of 4K @ 60fps or 2K up to 120fps... But I guess that will depend on what sort of system will be required and how soon I can budget it in to step up to that.

Jiri Bakala

03-02-2007, 05:44 PM

4K REDCODE RAW @ 24fps = 27.5MB/s
RED DRIVE capacity: 320GB

Excuse my ignorance; how many minutes of footage will fit on the Red Drive then?

Billy Summers

03-02-2007, 05:47 PM

4K RAW acquisition, a little 4K post (roto, keys, stabilize, pan/scan), 2K/HD deliverable (but that can be 10 bit 4:4:4 RGB, not necessarily 3:1:1 1440x1080 8 bit HDCAM).

What he said. :nerd:

Chris Forbes

03-02-2007, 06:00 PM

Excuse my ignorance; how many minutes of footage will fit on the Red Drive then?

About 3 hrs

Nick Shaw

03-02-2007, 06:01 PM

4K RAW acquisition, a little 4K post (roto, keys, stabilize, pan/scan), 2K/HD deliverable (but that can be 10 bit 4:4:4 RGB, not necessarily 3:1:1 1440x1080 8 bit HDCAM).

-mike

Never quite worked out the HDCam 3:1:1 thing. People talk as if it is downscaled to 1440x1080 then that is sub-sampled at 3:1:1. My understanding is that the 3 figure comes from the down-sampling to 1440 (1440 being 3/4 of 1920), and the chroma 1s from the chroma downsampled to 480 (1/4) of 1920. ie 3:1:1 subsampling of 1920x1080, not 1440x1080.

See http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/pdf/s367m.pdf for detailed HDCam spec.

Nonetheless, RGB 4:4:4 10 bit is clearly better (if you can afford HDCam SR).

Sorry for the side track!

Harry Clark

03-02-2007, 06:06 PM

4K w/ 35mm optics, finish in 1080p
(mostly commercials, music videos, corporate films)
Obviously go to the window for the high-speed stuff...
Cheers,
Harry

Jim Arthurs

03-02-2007, 06:17 PM

Hah! Most of my clients still want SD delivery, with HD as a backup, if that, and only because I prod them. While it's fun to talk 4K and 2K finishes as if they happen every day, I don't think they are the norm. While I shoot virtually everything on HD, SD post still rules in most cases. For the great majority of regional shoots, HD has just been a 35mm substitute. No more 35 or 16mm packages for a spot, like in the 80's/90's; HD has taken its place. And really only because it's the buzz, not for any true quality gains.

Case in point; I just provided FX and the edit on a high profile national/international :30 spot for a major real estate company that will never see the light of day as anything other than Digibeta 4:3. Sure, it was posted in HD and graded in 1080, but that was only for my vanity and out of my pocket. It sure wasn't a client requirement for any of the deliverables. At best it was simply personal protection so they couldn't come back and ask for HD two years from now. But I bet they won't.

So, to answer the question, I'll shoot whatever is good enough for the job at hand. Stuff that will be SD will likely be only downsampled RGB 720p. Why do more? Are you REALLY going to need archived 4K for that spot that will be off the air in 3 months? For FX work and plate stuff, it will be whatever format makes the most sense. And thank goodness the RED will have the options you need.

Larry McKee

03-02-2007, 06:20 PM

Originate in 4K, deliver in 1080 for commercial spots and 2K for features. Except for the clients that still want SD masters. I'll still have my BetaCam SP rig and HVX200 for the projects that require them. But, lately, the poor old BetaCam has been a prop more than it's been used to shoot with.

Brian Kaz

03-02-2007, 07:01 PM

I'm about to shoot 4 movie trailers based off my company's scripts using the HVX. We will then shop these around. My hope is that if/when one of these gets picked up, RED will be in my hands. In which case, it's 4k for me.

Hey, Larry. Looks like you and I will be getting ours at the same time, eh?

Don Woods

03-02-2007, 07:03 PM

Can I go with all the above. That is the point of the camera for me. I can shoot anything. But I will shoot 4k most.

Jiri Bakala

03-02-2007, 07:31 PM

About 3 hrs

Thanks Chris.

Ken Corben

03-02-2007, 07:47 PM

Since the majority of my wildlife footage is not reproduceable then 4K Redraw for future proofing my images - deliverable in any format client requires with redcine workflow.

May cost more upfront for cine lenses and archiving but long term return looks promising.

Ralph Oshiro

03-02-2007, 08:10 PM

I'll shoot at 4k for archival, but rez down via REDCINE to 1080p for my purposes.That's EXACTLY my plan as well! What will you archive to?

Larry McKee

03-02-2007, 09:23 PM

Kaz - Yep looks like there'll be dancin' all along the Gulf Coast.

Rob Lohman

03-03-2007, 05:25 AM

Why is 2K twice in the poll? There's only 2K windowed, unless you count cropping/resizing in post to 2K as another output option?

Clayton Harper

03-03-2007, 05:48 AM

I'm gonna shoot in 720p and uprez to 4k in post. :holloween:

Just kidding.

Häakon

03-03-2007, 08:55 AM

Why is 2K twice in the poll? There's only 2K windowed, unless you count cropping/resizing in post to 2K as another output option?
Easy, boy. :) The original poster probably just thought there was also a 2K RGB option. To be honest, the chart on red.com is a little hard to understand; the recording formats are there, but not how they're achieved. For example, it shows '720p RGB,' and then lists "up to 120p in REDCODE' but doesn't explain if that's windowed from the 2K sensor, scaled from the 4K raster, both, neither... you see the problem. Many of us who have been following the camera for ages have a sense of the myriad of choices that are available, but the info that's been "officially" released is still somewhat confusing.

That being said, I know that NAB is the real 'official' launch pad and I am assuming that there is a bunch more information that will be available by then (and some of these outdated and/or confusing charts/photos will be replaced), so all questions should be answered by that time.

Zack Birlew

03-03-2007, 09:19 AM

I'll shoot in 4K 24p exclusively unless I need to get the variable frame rates up to 120fps on a lower resolution, shouldn't bee too much of a visual drop for the Average Joe to notice.

Until I can actually deliver a 4K print, I'll downconvert in REDCINE to 1080p for practically everything in the meantime. As far as editing goes, I'll try to figure out the whole process of making an EDL(?) on the side, which I've never done before.

Lenses are going to be limited (hey, I can barely afford the camera and the new Mac Pro w/Cinema Display). Thanks to Evin's hard work testing all sorts of lenses, I've narrowed it to the basic Nikon 17-35mm zoom and, unless my current 1.4 50mm Nikon is damaged too much, a Zeiss 50mm lens initially. Eventually I'll start adding more lenses as the need arises, I may actually add an 85mm or 135mm just for distance shooting, but I don't imagine I'll be filming far away from the talent that much since my brother and I are going to be getting into greenscreen with this camera. :)

Other than that, I figure we'll deck the camera out with the Redrockmicro mattebox and follow focus, RED Cage, and a few RED Drives and we'll call it a day for a while. Already our student films are going to rock everything else by our senior year in the Fall as far as picture quality is concerned! :pirate: Yar har!

Damien Molineaux

03-03-2007, 09:59 AM

... To be honest, the chart on red.com is a little hard to understand; the recording formats are there, but not how they're achieved. For example, it shows '720p RGB,' and then lists "up to 120p in REDCODE' but doesn't explain if that's windowed from the 2K sensor, scaled from the 4K raster, both, neither...

Actually, if you read the chart carefully, it is quite clear, you have four colums corresponding to your frame size : S35, 35mm, S16, B4 (2/3", 16mm) and in each column the recording options from these frame sizes. For example, from a 35mm frame size you can record 4K RAW (Red Code), 1080p (RGB) or 720p (RGB) at the indicated frame rates.

Click on the image below to see it in big.

Cheers,
Damien

Damien Molineaux

03-03-2007, 10:13 AM

Never quite worked out the HDCam 3:1:1 thing. People talk as if it is downscaled to 1440x1080 then that is sub-sampled at 3:1:1. My understanding is that the 3 figure comes from the down-sampling to 1440 (1440 being 3/4 of 1920), and the chroma 1s from the chroma downsampled to 480 (1/4) of 1920. ie 3:1:1 subsampling of 1920x1080, not 1440x1080.

See http://www.smpte.org/smpte_store/standards/pdf/s367m.pdf for detailed HDCam spec.

Nonetheless, RGB 4:4:4 10 bit is clearly better (if you can afford HDCam SR).

Sorry for the side track!

From my understanding, 3:1:1 could also be described as 4:1.33:1.33 so 3:1:1 is superior to 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 but inferior to 4:2:2

The first figure just serves as a base for the subsampling, right?

Cheers,
Damien

Jim Arthurs

03-03-2007, 11:36 AM

Never quite worked out the HDCam 3:1:1 thing. People talk as if it is downscaled to 1440x1080 then that is sub-sampled at 3:1:1. My understanding is that the 3 figure comes from the down-sampling to 1440 (1440 being 3/4 of 1920), and the chroma 1s from the chroma downsampled to 480 (1/4) of 1920. ie 3:1:1 subsampling of 1920x1080, not 1440x1080.

My understanding is that 3:1:1 is from the off-tape recorded signal of 1440, not the original chip block potential of 1920.

I think of it this way in layman's shorthand...

One unit of chroma (480 pixels wide) is stretched over 3 units of Luma (480 times 3 = 1440 wide).

Rogelio Salinas

03-03-2007, 12:03 PM

I was hoping to shoot a feature completely in 4K, but I will be needing quite a bit of it shot in 60P, so I may either shoot the entire thing in 2K or just shoot the 60P footage in 2K and the rest in 4K. 4K 60P will run a bit to expensive to do it uncompressed through a RAID. 4K would also produce some great looking production stills.

Mark Thorpe

03-03-2007, 02:31 PM

Easy, boy. :) The original poster probably just thought there was also a 2K RGB option. To be honest, the chart on red.com is a little hard to understand; ..........

And I thought I was the only one.......Thanks Haakon.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

03-03-2007, 02:32 PM

Rocco Schult

03-08-2007, 06:10 AM

My understanding is that 3:1:1 is from the off-tape recorded signal of 1440, not the original chip block potential of 1920.

I think of it this way in layman's shorthand...

One unit of chroma (480 pixels wide) is stretched over 3 units of Luma (480 times 3 = 1440 wide).

That should be it. It refers to the defacto recorded pixels.

Rocco Schult

03-08-2007, 06:15 AM

Originate in 4K, deliver in 1080 for commercial spots and 2K for features.

Sounds perfect in theory. My wish too.

I'll shoot at 4k for archival, but rez down via REDCINE to 1080p for my purposes.

I just wonder all the time: Has anybody a clue how long rerendering (thats what "rezdown" more or less is) takes ? I assume it takes ages. Resizing needs (at least in my little understanding) complete decompression and recompression.
Secondly I wonder if its needed anyway - will FCP edit the original QT-stream ? Still don't get that. If it does, alrighty then: Shoot, store and edit in 4k, 'rezdown' only final master to whatever format.

We had a documentary at our place with 232 hrs of material - no way of recompressing/downrezzing/recoding that stuff - you're getting mad.

Initial storage space is just half the story.

LAO

03-08-2007, 07:15 AM

I intend to shoot feature films at 4K. After picture lock and post DI process, scan to film for distribution.

donatello b

03-08-2007, 08:23 AM

after listening to all the speakers at DCI meeting on 4k production/post production/projection ( which Fovean posted under 4k workflow) - takes about 30 min to listen to all speakers .... they all seem to agree shoot 4k/scan to 4k and then go to lessor formats .. which is exactly REDs "4K to anything" recommendation ...

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Streaming%20from%20NAB

Antoine Baumann

03-08-2007, 09:08 AM

Shoot 4k for up to 30fps, 2k for 31fps to 60fps, and even 720p if up to 120fps is a need.

For the moment I am thinking to go for a 2k postproduction workflow and then back to film, but I will test difference between 2k and 4k when scan to film, and if 4k is really better, than I might go for 4k prostproduction workflow, but that seems to me a little heavy for the processors (thinking to 3D renderings....)

antoine.

tj williams

03-08-2007, 10:41 AM

Sanjin Jukic

03-08-2007, 10:54 AM

4K to shoot, than to archive and scale in 2K or HD 1080p for post is quite enough for the beginning. Anyway the most affordable hardware for post is made for HD and 2K. 4K post is just beyond indie budget.

Billy Summers

03-08-2007, 08:32 PM

Joel Kaye

03-08-2007, 09:16 PM

Only <18% will shoot HD while >80% will shoot 4K This is great for me as it means I will be practically alone shooting, for immediate delivery to outside clients in the HDtv industry. I had no idea there were 4 times as many films as HD tv shows!

That's a good point. I think people will actually end up using what's best for whatever project they're shooting. If turnaround is fast you probably will be shooting in your final format.

I'm really curious to see how well 720 at faster frame rates uprezzes to match 1080p. I'm guessing it'll intercut pretty well. 720p to 4k... well that would be an interesting test... there are some good uprezzing algorithms out there.

After the camera has been out for 6 months and many projects have completed then I think the best workflows will have been worked out.

Jannard

03-08-2007, 10:20 PM

Poi Boy

03-08-2007, 11:31 PM

If you can shoot 4k and output any lesser format...why wouldn't you ?
-A

Moir

03-09-2007, 01:51 AM

Since I'm primarily interested in shooting wildlife for documentary / stock, I'm thinking of shooting windowed to take advantage of the crop factor where needed, and 4k Redcode for wider shots.

Or would it be better to shoot 4k and crop in post?

Dominic Jones

03-09-2007, 05:53 AM

If you can shoot 4k and output any lesser format...why wouldn't you ?
-A
Well, if render times were an issue and you had a fast turnaround for a client wanting , say, 720p rushes. That might be one reason. Or if you need really high framerates and are finishing in a lesser format (again, probably 720p if you decided to do this).

Also, it depends on your situation. I do a lot of freelance stuff where the client (be that a producer or their clients, in corporate land) calls the shots - and they sometimes want the straight forward stuff they're used to. Obviously if time permits you could still shoot 4k and RedCine down to whatever they wanted, but rendering time may become an issue, especially if the producers want the rushes in their hand at the end of the day, which often happens.

So I guess the overall answer is: "When it's not your call"!

But yes, for standard 24p narrative work where I'm calling the shots (and/or can convince the director and producer it's a good idea) I'll be shooting 4k...

Since I'm primarily interested in shooting wildlife for documentary / stock, I'm thinking of shooting windowed to take advantage of the crop factor where needed, and 4k Redcode for wider shots.

Or would it be better to shoot 4k and crop in post?
Well, 2k windowed would have some advantages for wildlife/doco work:

1) Lighter lenses
2) Greater DoF
3) Higher framerates (very handy for wildlife, of course)
4) Lower datarate = Less storage needed = Less HDD's to carry in the field

So I'd be tempted to say you're dead right with your first analysis - shoot 2k windowed for the longer lens stuff, and 4k for the wides...

I should probably add that 4k does have some advantages if you're finishing to 2k or less (I'm assuming you're probably thinking of a final 1080p file, am I right?!) - most notably that you can re-frame and post-pan around the image a lot more than from 2k, as well as having much more room to stabilize the image in post, which might be handy in some situations - so you might want to shoot 4k if you've got a nippy little lizard or something that won't do as it's told!

Moir

03-09-2007, 06:34 AM

to 2k or less (I'm assuming you're probably thinking of a final 1080p file, am I right?!)

Dominic

Thanks for the comments. You're correct - I expect to output everything to 1080p, whether originated in 4k, 2k or 1080p.

What you say about shooting 4k and then being able to re-frame is certainly one advantage. However, assuming I am using 35mm lenses and ignoring DoF issues, in terms of image quality only, I wonder whether cropping is better done in-camera (ie. windowing) or in post.

Dominic Jones

03-09-2007, 07:35 AM

Well, if you're cropping it shouldn't make much difference, but if you scale down in post from 4k to 1080p (or to 2k and then crop/re-frame) then you'll have the advantage over oversampling each pixel, so you'll get a superior image from that. Of course, then you'll lose the re-framing advantage...

Rogelio Salinas

03-09-2007, 08:10 AM

If you can shoot 4k and output any lesser format...why wouldn't you ?
-A

60P. I wish that 4K 60P was available without a RAID, if it was then there would be no clear reason to shoot in anything but 4K. Maybe one day soon this vision will become reality. 4K 60P on camera is great, but we are very grateful for what RED will offer when it is unleashed upon the world.

Joel Kaye

03-09-2007, 10:04 AM

If you can shoot 4k and output any lesser format...why wouldn't you ?
-A

If that turned out to be slow workflow but you needed fast turnaround that would be one reason. Another is if you want 120fps for a shot.

I'm sure I'll be shooting 4k. I may offline edit in something else. I know I'm going to be doing a lot of color correcting/masking and a fair amount of FXshots too - so I suspect there will be some experimenting. The great thing is the RED team appears to be very POST oriented. Workflow is a very big deal.

Poi Boy

03-09-2007, 10:31 AM

I think higher frame rates would be the only reason to not shoot 4K as it seems speed will not be an issue.
-A

Emanuel A.

03-09-2007, 06:23 PM

Indeed.

Exsqueeze me but 2K is only available in windowed mode so there are not two 2K options.So, it seems what 18% are looking for is the 4K as well (in the absence of 2K scaled). Going into the 4K shooting realm 'cause the 2K scaled from 4K @post (and REDCINE) can be a suitable solution for these people. That said, 80% (4 in 5) for 4K shooting option speaks for the success of this camera project.

REDHKSC

03-10-2007, 07:22 AM

We will encourage everyone to be brave and shoot 4K REDCODE RAW. Then REDCINE to whatever you need now and keep the 4k "in the bank". We are finding that our image size, quality and data rates completely change the thought process. I'm betting you will all agree when you see it in person.

Jim

I agree with Jim that like what I told many JVC PROHD Camera/corder owners that I have done the 720P 24/25/30/60 on my JVC 's PROHD Camera in an uncompressed format on MAC with AJA or BM's I/O cards or even on Quantels Q ( Trust me that it's better than many compressed 1080i !!! ) compares other 1080i camcorders which are 4 times much expensive than JVC's cameras.

Save the $ for mutiple Cams set-up and spend $ on better Optics (35mm PLs etc )

Forget about 1080i only at 50/60 or 1080P only at 25/30 on Blue-ray or HD CAM tape,

The most competitive tools ( Camera ) just 1/3 " CCD uncompressed on disk for small supervalued production for 50-120" screen ( LCD or Projection ) and bigger budget for D-Cinemas Screen ( 2-4K ) with RED one.

1/2" or 2/3" CCDs Cameras/corders are not for now and future.

1) 720P ( Entry point )
or
2) 4K down to 1080P or 720P in 120 FPS.

SONY is not in that range. ( Sorry for Soon Only Not Yet )

Stewart

Craig Bowman

03-22-2007, 07:06 PM

I'm doing a lot of compositing work so I'll almost always be shooting 4K Redcode Raw.

Zach Hilton

03-22-2007, 08:19 PM

I probably will do the same as Pixelchef and others. Shoot 4k just because I can, and also so that I have it when my systems can actually handle it. But edit in SD - HD depending on what is needed (effects, quick edit, etc...) and then upres the final sequence.

Ignas K

03-23-2007, 03:34 AM

I´ll do 4k just because it is 35mm size. Cut and deliver in 1080p or 720p, it depends as every project will "tell" what it needs - more angle or faster framerates.

Darren Orange

03-23-2007, 09:45 AM

I thought 4K redcode is 4:2:2 does it do 4:4:4? or is it just 10 bit in place of 12 bit with RAW?

Nick Shaw

03-23-2007, 09:49 AM

All REDCODE is either RAW, or 4:4:4 if RGB. There is no 4:2:2 REDCODE as far as I'm aware.

MDP16

03-25-2007, 11:11 PM

2K for MDP. Lighter lenses for the backcountry packs.

Brook Willard

03-25-2007, 11:28 PM

4:2:2 is dead.

Michael Hastings

03-26-2007, 08:59 AM

Jim: We shoot underwater and nature where we are in the "field" i.e. Fiji, or Bonaire. or for topside wildlife say Kenya, where we are limited in what we can get locally and limited in what we can bring with us for a week to 2 weeks shooting. We want to be brave and shoot 4k REDCODE RAW.

With my Ikegami Editcam Hard drive recording camcorder I was able to buy 21 of the Fieldpak hard drives government surplus for $80 (thank God for Uncle Sam who paid about 20K for them. They are still normally about $300 each and I replaced the 4 gig drives with 80 - 120 gig drives) so I have plenty of drives - but I can't afford that many REDDRIVES.

Assume I have two REDDRIVES and our Mac Laptop. Practically speaking what's our work flow? I assume I will bring a suitcase of small 2 drive raids with 320 or 500 gig drives in them, or a Raid with removable drives. When we offload from the REDDRIVE do we have to go through the computer? Do we have the ability to choose the clips to offload or do we just have to dump the whole drive. Can we see the clips in the viewfinder or LCD of the RED and we erase clips easily?

I would like to do raid 1 where we automatically have a backup but maybe is better to just dump it off twice to 2 separate drives - maybe just a bunch of off the shelf 320 or greater Firewire/USB external drives which are getting pretty cheap these days.

We will encourage everyone to be brave and shoot 4K REDCODE RAW. Then REDCINE to whatever you need now and keep the 4k "in the bank". We are finding that our image size, quality and data rates completely change the thought process. I'm betting you will all agree when you see it in person.

Jim