Dragon...

[Johnny Friday]

Can anyone elaborate on what the BIG SURPRISE was we as R1 owners were to see? I recall Jarred mentioned this in a thread way way back...something about selling your R1 and you'll be sorry when we.......(I thought this meant a new sensor upgrade or at least something of an upgrade path)? has anything further been said about this?

[Elsie N]

Can anyone elaborate on what the BIG SURPRISE was we as R1 owners were to see? I recall Jarred mentioned this in a thread way way back...something about selling your R1 and you'll be sorry when we.......(I thought this meant a new sensor upgrade or at least something of an upgrade path)? has anything further been said about this?

Jim said no in another thread. I'm paraphrasing but he said the upgrade path for the R-1 was the Epic. He was also firm about the price of the IO module being $3750 (if memory serves). RED is becoming very firm. '-:)

[Elsie N]

Speaking of the R-1, that camera maybe isn't so "obsolete" as some people are thinking. When you consider it had such a great onboard audio solution (saving of $3750 right there from the new IO module) an MX sensor option, and will probably end up weighing less than an Epic with similar capabilities at approx. half the price, I wonder why I didn't keep at least one of mine.

Maybe it will be re-incarnated as battle tested.

[Nick Morrison]

I'm surprised no one asked for the native ISO of Dragon?

Great point. I'd love to know the native ISO of Dragon (1600?), and the crop factor at 6k (1.2?). What we know already is mind blowing, but it's always fun to get all the specs!

[Jon Carr]

Great point. I'd love to know the native ISO of Dragon (1600?), and the crop factor at 6k (1.2?). What we know already is mind blowing, but it's always fun to get all the specs!

I always get great results at 1280, so I would love to get that as the native ISO, but 1600 would blow everyone else out of the water!

[Dave McMahon]

Awesome news Red!

We are a heavy Red Scarlet User for all our productions. The quality of the Scarlet is unsurpassed. The most important remaining feature in our line of work, such as for the 2010 and 2012 Olympic coverage, is the ability to overcrank 120fps at at least 2K, otherwise we miss the action :-)

Sincerely,
Dave McMahon

Executive Producer
XCZONE.TV
Clean Oxygen Fed Sports Cinematography

[Elsie N]

I think this was noted either earlier in this thread or in another one, but it bears repeating for those who don't read every post.

NOTE: Any collection or group of items placed as a single order that includes 1x EPIC brain and totals over $50,000 in invoiced value will receive the DRAGON sensor upgrade at no charge.


This was brought to my attention by Reduser Denis Korotkov, a follower of Reduser since the early days.

[Aleksandr_Oleynik]

I'm surprised no one asked for the native ISO of Dragon?

+1
I asked :)

[Carlos Florez]

Me TOO !!!!!!

Can't wait.


Oh, but I will... ;)

[Carlos Florez]

+2
I'm asking the same :)


+1
I asked :)

[mark foster]

ok--I hate to beat a dead horse--but I feel like with all the back and forth and guessing there has been no definitive answer to the red one saga, was the red one to epic the last physical upgrade for the red one? I love the red and have just bought one last year and was waiting for today to see if i should go MX or not--Im hoping to know officially that there will not be any more upgrades to the red one camera. Then i will go MX or buy a scarlet.
And if so may I ask why not--It seams that the sensor would fit in a red one--is it too costly?--I would pay a pretty penny for it--as i love the format and size for Red one. so can we just to be clear with serious answer, Its still a great camera and years ahead of others, I just dont want hold onto to these pipe dreams anymore.

thank you

mark

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..

[Robert Horwell]

There is no path for Dragon to the RED ONE. That upgrade path was RED ONE to EPIC.

Jim

Did you read this?

[Mike Halper]

So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.

[Alan Peterson]

I think they announced it was 30x15.8mm earlier in the thread.

When do we get to see sample footage from Dragon? I can't wait to see what 15+ stops of DR looks like.

[Rob Anderson]

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..
I'd love to know this too. That quote from Jim has been hanging over things for us too. We bought an Epic (love it), but we're still trying to find a good use for our One and have held off on the MX upgrade until we see where things settle.

[L. Langer]

I'd love to know this too. That quote from Jim has been hanging over things for us too. We bought an Epic (love it), but we're still trying to find a good use for our One and have held off on the MX upgrade until we see where things settle.

Not getting in on the offered trade-up = You will be sorry that you sold your RED ONE because you are not eligible to get in on the fun!

[Mike Halper]

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.


I think they announced it was 30x15.8mm earlier in the thread.

When do we get to see sample footage from Dragon? I can't wait to see what 15+ stops of DR looks like.


Exactly. I used the Pythagorean theorem to get the 33.9 diagonal of the sensor. (30 x 30) + (15.8 x 15.8) = (33.9 x 33.9). So really we'd need 34mm image circle to really cover that. Is this correct or does the sensor dimensions provided include some unused portion?

[Nick Morrison]

I believe that is based on the current pixel size of the Mysterium-X sensor, in order to fit a 6k sensor in an Epic (or Scarlet) I would imagine the pixel size is now smaller, hence the same lenses that cover today will also cover in the future - of course we can´t know this untill we know the physical size of the sensor.

Isn't the new Dragon sensor a teeny-weeny bit larger than the MX sensor? So the FOV may change slightly, and some extreme wides may begin to vignette, where they didn't before, no?

[Rob Anderson]

Not getting in on the offered trade-up = You will be sorry that you sold your RED ONE because you are not eligible to get in on the fun!
I bought my One from someone else on RU that had executed the staged trade up already, but never improved the sensor to the MX. Transaction happened about 4 months ago. They got an awesome deal with the trade up for sure and generally speaking, I got a good one on the buy too. But I've held off buying the MX upgrade just in case there was Dragon or Monstro news coming.

That's it really. Just wondering if MX marks the EOL for the One and if I'm good to go-ahead and finally do that. Or if, per Jim's earlier comments, there is something else coming to One holders.

Beyond that, loving the Epic and can't wait to drop the Dragon into that.

[Scott Crawley]

ok--I understand that it won't be the Dragon--But JIm did say everyone selling their red ones would be sorry, is there another possibility in the monster family or something--I just want to know from the mouth of RED that it will or will not be physically upgraded in anyway--what was the reason we'd be sorry for selling--I'd love to hear from someone who works for RED.

Pleasssssse..

When he said that, I believe what he wasn't saying is that a physical trade in might be necessary. The context of those remarks (If I remember correctly) was one of the loyalty program and Stages 1-4. He was not dangling another upgrade carrot. The option to move to the Epic platform WAS the carrot. By making it possible for most R1 owners to make a free lateral move to Epic, Jim was keeping his Obsolescence Obsolete promise. Were it not for that promise, I doubt there would ever have been such a generous offering.

The writing was on the wall. The Red form factor was drastically changing, and if you wanted to stay on board and continue to upgrade your camera you needed to migrate to the modular Epic platform.

R1 is still good, and like an old Bolex it will remain good so long as it functions, but it is what it is and that is all that it is. This is the end of the road.

Rob, MX with confidence.

Happy Shooting

[Elsie N]

When he said that, I believe what he wasn't saying is that a physical trade in might be necessary. The context of those remarks (If I remember correctly) was one of the loyalty program and Stages 1-4. He was not dangling another upgrade carrot. The option to move to the Epic platform WAS the carrot. By making it possible for most R1 owners to make a free lateral move to Epic, Jim was keeping his Obsolescence Obsolete promise. Were it not for that promise, I doubt there would ever have been such a generous offering.

The writing was on the wall. The Red form factor was drastically changing, and if you wanted to stay on board and continue to upgrade your camera you needed to migrate to the modular Epic platform.

R1 is still good, and like an old Bolex it will remain good so long as it functions, but it is what it is and that is all that it is. This is the end of the road.

Happy shooting

I remember those remarks as well and my initial thinking was that he was saying the R-1 is a good camera and you won't be disappointed by owning it. But since then, there have been so many posts thinking it meant something else that I grew to doubt my own interpretation.

[Johnny Friday]

Scott, first i think it was Jarred that said all of this....something like we will be sorry if we sell our R1's.....but it was an open invitation to think there may be an upgrade coming....that was all i could read from that statement...why else would i be sorry then? Or maybe it meant that those that did sell there R1's would not get the Epic X upgrade or revoked? those are the only two meanings i could have discerned from it...but i don't think it was a threat as much a reason to hold on and that RED may have something cool to offer for R1 owners.....since at the time of that statement the upgrades i believe were already done and written....What else can that statement have meant? OR.....maybe RED thought they could pull off an upgrade, but then it just did not work out and now that line of thought and statement is long gone....??

Regardless....it does beg the question of WHAT was meant by the initial statement AND are we in for a real surprise--those of us original R1 owners that still have our cameras?? i upgraded both mine to MX sensors and sure would like to know if there is anything else in store OR should i now consider selling both off now that i have a PILE of Red Epics in my closet and see no future for me to now keep my two R1's......Am i going to miss anything now? One thing i KNOW i'll miss is....if i don't sell my R1's now, they'll just depreciate like everything electronic.....SO....PLEASE RELEASE ME, LET ME GO or tell me something that keeps me excited to keep my R1....as much as i love it...It is a tool and nothing more to me.....but a LOvELY tool indeed. one that will no longer make me $$. My Epics will though....

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Exactly. I used the Pythagorean theorem to get the 33.9 diagonal of the sensor. (30 x 30) + (15.8 x 15.8) = (33.9 x 33.9). So really we'd need 34mm image circle to really cover that. Is this correct or does the sensor dimensions provided include some unused portion?

Sorry, for once I didn't read the entire thread, I just assumed based on how little space it is in there already that they had run out of space..
I must learn to read all the posts, my bad.

[Scott Crawley]

This is all hindsight so yes, it is an amalgam of comments by both Jim and Jarred. I could be wrong but when Jarred said You'll be sorry if you sell your R1, that the Stage 4 shoe had not yet been dropped. It was an early response to all of the lease deals that were going down. It was a warning that if you were not planning to actually keep your R1 and BUY the Epic that you would have to physically have possession of your R1 in order to take advantage of some of the upgrade options. Again, this is hindsight, so it is subject to my own memory and interpretation.

When those things were said their meanings were not as clear as I think they are now. Now that the Stages have been completed.

Jim loves the R1 and he obviously has strong feelings for those who believed in him when others did not. Hell, this is Jim, anything could happen... But expect nothing. He has given plenty, and to expect anything else is nuts. I think I hear irritation in his tone each time he has to answer the Dragon in R1 questions. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you not feel like folks were being ungrateful with their ever hopeful requests for something more?


Scott, first i think it was Jarred that said all of this....something like we will be sorry if we sell our R1's.....but it was an open invitation to think there may be an upgrade coming....that was all i could read from that statement...why else would i be sorry then? Or maybe it meant that those that did sell there R1's would not get the Epic X upgrade or revoked? those are the only two meanings i could have discerned from it...but i don't think it was a threat as much a reason to hold on and that RED may have something cool to offer for R1 owners.....since at the time of that statement the upgrades i believe were already done and written....What else can that statement have meant? OR.....maybe RED thought they could pull off an upgrade, but then it just did not work out and now that line of thought and statement is long gone....??

[Rob Anderson]

He has given plenty, and to expect anything else is nuts. I think I hear irritation in his tone each time he has to answer the Dragon in R1 questions. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you not feel like folks were being ungrateful with their ever hopeful requests for something more?
No one, myself included, expects anything extra. All we want is to know if there will be so we can make a prudent decision. Not sure why anytime anyone asks about their R1 they get pounced on like this.

[Mark Pugh]

Scott's comment is accurate.
Jarred's comment remained enigmatic, but...
Many, many people chose to believe it meant rewards for not upgrading to Epic. It didn't.
Jim has stated clearly, for years, that the path to The future was to upgrade was to Epic-X.
Many people got this, and it was stated again by Jim in the last 24 hours.
Time to get over it.

[Scott Crawley]

I'm not pouncing. Please don't feel that way. I may be taking a more emphatic tone just to get people to listen because nobody seems to, but it is not directed solely at you. You are not alone in this. I think people need to finally accept that R1 development is over. Red has pledged support in the form of repairs, software and firmware, but no new R1 hardware is likely forthcoming.

Jim could probably use a break. He and Jarred have answered the question "Will there be a Dragon upgrade for R1?" many, many times.


No one, myself included, expects anything extra. All we want is to know if there will be so we can make a prudent decision. Not sure why anytime anyone asks about their R1 they get pounced on like this.

[Tom Lowe]

This is such a great announcement. You guys are doing amazing things.

Will the sensor be the same size and aspect ratio? How does Dragon's ISO performance rank against MX? If I previously felt comfortable going up to 1600 ISO in low light conditions on MX, what ISO will I feel comfortable with on Dragon?

[Kevin Marshall]

Hey Tom - Jim gave the size, at least, last night:


Sensor size is 30x15.8mm. Pixel size is 5 micron.

Jim

There's some other posts about there being improvements in both highlights and lowlights...gotta dig a little more...

EDIT: found stuff. When Asked about lowlight:


Much better than M-X.

Jim

And about ISO range:


Incredibly low and high.

Jim

Cryptic (not out of the ordinary), but somewhat informative.

[Alexander Alexandrov]

This is an incredible announcement.

Can anyone from RED comment on whether a 4:3 sensor will ever be an option?
I initially thought that it's the hardware (and/or processing speeds) that perhaps restricted extra height.
I'm really hoping for full anamorphic lens use without cropping, which would be about 18.5-19mm in sensor height (film gate). even if it is at slower fps.

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Mwuahaha

Bravo....Red strikes again.

I really appreciate the consideration for the Scarlet Upgrade to take place in 2013, very smart move. That's more than enough time to finalize my Scarlet investment, save for Dragon, and also have extra cash on the side to be happy... AWESOME!!

This is great news for all us freelancers and Red owners. I can't wait to get the full spec sheet and hopefully some content!

NAB 2012 proves that Red is leading the pack. I feel way better about my purchase.

:thumbup1:

[Will Keir]

What makes you think the new dragon is going to reduce the noise that dramatically? Dragon is still a daylight sensor?


with really low noise.

[Tom Gleeson]

So we need an image circle of 33.9mm (basically 34mm) to cover in 6K with no vignetting, right? Which means, Zeiss Ultra Prime 16mm (33mm according to Matthew Duclos http://web.me.com/ducloslenses/DataRef/ImgCir.html) won't cover, right?

I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40

Sorry working out the image circle size is beyond my mathematical ability.

It's strange that the sensitivity of the Dragon chip has not been announced and I assume this has yet to be locked down. But at 800asa we are already struggling with EXT light levels. In TVC world shallow depth is generally preffered and we are forced to use huge amounts of ND that can degrade the image. I can't even purchase a set of the Schneider Platinum NDs as they have been so hard to manufacture to the required quality at such strong light attenuations.

As much as I applaud a faster chip OMG how do you ND a 1600asa or faster chip in Australian midday light? Red please accelerate the ND OPLF idea that was discussed so many months ago or we are going to need ND21 or ND 24 filters!

[Johnny Friday]

I'm not pouncing. Please don't feel that way. I may be taking a more emphatic tone just to get people to listen because nobody seems to, but it is not directed solely at you. You are not alone in this. I think people need to finally accept that R1 development is over. Red has pledged support in the form of repairs, software and firmware, but no new R1 hardware is likely forthcoming.

Jim could probably use a break. He and Jarred have answered the question "Will there be a Dragon upgrade for R1?" many, many times.
Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....

[PC Greene]

I'm gonna guess at least 5K 24fps or 30fps, for finishing in 4K.

+1 good guess

[Scott Crawley]

Everyone's gotta get what they gotta get. If that's what you need then I'm not trying to stop you. It's your money. I'm just trying to help.
:beer:


Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....

[Brian Timmons]

Scott, these questions are directed at RED....because RED made statements that still resonate in the red forum.....we all want to know (finally, once and for all) what was meant by the "STATEMENT" you will be sorry if you sell your red...or something to that effect. Not for anyone but RED to answer......this is an executive statement no? not for us to answer. but WTF does it mean? keep my R1 and continue to loose $$ on resale or Hold on for a BIG announcement....? This was a CLEAR CUT statement and one that seemed to mean something. so for us as red fans to anser for red is not good enough.....

AND...this may have NOT|HING to do with DRAGON--but WTF does or DID it mean? i'm going to get a ham sandwich in the mail? or my R1 is going to be a collectors item? i say this as a joke, but for many....holding on to 35k worth of gear based on THAT statement could be devastating....

First, congratulations to RED for pulling off those specs with the RED DRAGON.
I never expected 6K at this time frame. It will be great for the new Epic and Scarlet owners out there.

I'm in the same boat with these mixed signals concerning the RED ONE future.

There were many statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX as well as firmware updates.


I never thought this would be an issue until there was increasing silence regarding the RED ONE and DRAGON.
Also consider that despite reassurance that the RED ONE would get continued firmware support the last meaningful release was quite a while ago.
RED ONEs still can't monitor RED COLOR 2 or RED GAMMA 2 and now the 3rd version of both was just released.

The notion of a the RED ONE as a collectors piece is a bit of an odd joke. I suppose if one has multiple Epics around that could be an amusing luxury
but the RED ONE is not only a very viable piece of hardware it's still the primary tool some people shoot their work with.

I can't speak for all RED ONE owners but these are my personal gripes about this situation.
Hell, I would be willing to pay for a 4K sensor that just gives better dynamic range and meaningfully higher frame rates.
I think people want to make sure their investment stays relatively current and are willing to pay to do so.

The "Obsolescence Obsolete" was the idea that truly inspired me to make a long term investment in this relatively unknown company 5 years ago.
This was with the understanding that I could gradually pay for improvements to the camera as they became available particularly in sensor tech.

It's obvious that RED is real, very known, and doing some incredible things for the filmmaking and technology in general.
Has anyone even created a 6K digital cinema camera before?

Unfortunately, there are a few areas like the promise of continued RED ONE support that are starting to come up short.

However this goes, I don't regret my investment in this company.

Instead of highjacking the DRAGON thread, RED users who want to voice their opinions on this issue might try this recent thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page4

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

[Daniel Reed]

I think at this point resolution 5k is way enough. they need to be the best at low light and other area. resolution is not everything
they need amazing low light cause sony and canon are the king now. they need to put slow motion at 4k at least for the scarlet

Hi Pascal, my understanding is that RED cameras are designed for Cinematic Features and other High Production Value materials.

A single Arri HMI Fresnel costs about the same as Two(2) Scarlet-X brains. Both the Scarlet and Epic are a steal at their respective price-points, especially when lighting costs are considered.

IMO no image acquisition system, regardless of "low light ability", will undo the need for a carefully lit set... and I dare ask why should it?


In terms of slow-mo for scarlet, I suggest becoming familiar w/ Twixtor or other optical pass motion estimation systems

OR (as has been said time and time again)

Rent an Epic!

[anne-maree gale]

Totally agree with Brian,

[Rodrigo Prata]

First, congratulations to RED for pulling off those specs with the RED DRAGON.
I never expected 6K at this time frame. It will be great for the new Epic and Scarlet owners out there.

I'm in the same boat with these mixed signals concerning the RED ONE future.

There were many statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX as well as firmware updates.


I never thought this would be an issue until there was increasing silence regarding the RED ONE and DRAGON.
Also consider that despite reassurance that the RED ONE would get continued firmware support the last meaningful release was quite a while ago.
RED ONEs still can't monitor RED COLOR 2 or RED GAMMA 2 and now the 3rd version of both was just released.

The notion of a the RED ONE as a collectors piece is a bit of an odd joke. I suppose if one has multiple Epics around that could be an amusing option
but this is not only a very viable piece of hardware it's still the primary tool some people shoot their work with.

I can't speak for all RED ONE owners but these are my personal gripes about this situation.
Hell, I would be willing to pay for a 4K sensor that just gives better dynamic range and meaningfully higher frame rates.
I think people want to make sure their investment stays relatively current and are willing to pay to do so.

The "Obsolescence Obsolete" was the idea that truly inspired me to make a long term investment in this relatively unknown company 5 years ago.
This was with the understanding that I could gradually pay for improvements to the camera as they became available particularly in sensor tech.

It's obvious that RED is real, very known, and doing some incredible things for the filmmaking and technology in general.
Has anyone even created a 6K digital cinema camera before?

Unfortunately, there are a few areas like the promise of continued RED ONE support that are starting to come up short.

However this goes, I don't regret my investment in this company.

Instead of highjacking the DRAGON thread, RED users who want to voice their opinions on this issue might try this recent thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page4

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

I don`t think there ever was any "statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX"

When it was said that people would be sorry to sell their RED Ones, it was in a context that configured selling their cameras as "Bas Attitude". Because the stages program ( i don`t remember wich program i was) stated that you should "KEEP" your RED One. People where getting cheaper EPICs packages ($28.000 for a hole package) and selling their RED Ones for mores them $17.500 (if MX sensored bodyes). If I undertand correctly, to RED those people where getting an unfair advantage, as this stage was designed for people that wanted to keep their RED Ones for sentimental values. If the statement that people would be sorry did imply anything, was that those who did it would get some sort of punishment.

of course I may be totally wrong.

[Brian Timmons]

I don`t think there ever was any "statements made in the past that stated plans for the RED ONE camera to have sensor updates past MX"

When it was said that people would be sorry to sell their RED Ones, it was in a context that configured selling their cameras as "Bas Attitude". Because the stages program ( i don`t remember wich program i was) stated that you should "KEEP" your RED One. People where getting cheaper EPICs packages ($28.000 for a hole package) and selling their RED Ones for mores them $17.500 (if MX sensored bodyes). If I undertand correctly, to RED those people where getting an unfair advantage, as this stage was designed for people that wanted to keep their RED Ones for sentimental values. If the statement that people would be sorry did imply anything, was that those who did it would get some sort of punishment.

of course I may be totally wrong.

Hello Rodrigo,

I understand your point though that statement wasn't quite what I was referring to.
It would probably be best to read and reply in this thread concerning what I wrote.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page3

No intent to start a controversy (enought of those). I do however think this issue should be up for discussion.

Thanks for the feedback Anne Maree.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

[Christopher Probst]

Not exactly so. DCI standards for digital delivery of a 1.85 film actually has a pixel aspect ratio of 1.89:1. This makes the Epic's native sensor perfectly suited to that DCI standard. Cropping for a 1.78:1 (16x9) tv broadcast like a commercial, represents a very slight crop of the sides, while cropping for a sperical 2.40:1 composition retains the sides, but requires a much bigger vertical crop.





I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40

Sorry working out the image circle size is beyond my mathematical ability.

It's strange that the sensitivity of the Dragon chip has not been announced and I assume this has yet to be locked down. But at 800asa we are already struggling with EXT light levels. In TVC world shallow depth is generally preffered and we are forced to use huge amounts of ND that can degrade the image. I can't even purchase a set of the Schneider Platinum NDs as they have been so hard to manufacture to the required quality at such strong light attenuations.

As much as I applaud a faster chip OMG how do you ND a 1600asa or faster chip in Australian midday light? Red please accelerate the ND OPLF idea that was discussed so many months ago or we are going to need ND21 or ND 24 filters!

[Rodrigo Prata]

Hello Rodrigo,

I understand your point though that statement wasn't quite what I was referring to.
It would probably be best to read and reply in this thread concerning what I wrote.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?76780-R1-MX-Upgrade-to-Dragon/page3



No intent to start a controversy (enought of those). I do however think this issue should be up for discussion.

Thanks for the feedback Anne Maree.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

Hi Brian,

I hadn`t see those posts from Jim, but after reading it I still mantain my belief that it is clear that there will never be an sensor upgrade to Dragon for the RED One.

This post:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?21391-Red-one-should-be-honored-with-Monstro&p=322068&viewfull=1#post322068

Is 3,5 years old and things have chaged a lot since them. I think that the upgrade path to Dragon for the RED One has become the EPIC upgrade and them the Dragon upgrade.

Nevertheless, Jim has stated on last year`s NAB that there would be no new upgrade for the RED One and he has stated this again yesterday.

My best wishes!

Rodrigo Prata

[Ben Smith]

After months of stressful deliberation I bought a Red Epic instead of an Alexa. I love the feeling when you realize you picked the right horse!

[Mike Halper]

I think you will have less trouble with lens coverage than you imagine. The Dragon sensor is natively 1:1.9 and this is not a deliverable format. You will be cropping the sides to deliver 16/9 TV or 1:1.85 for cinema and cropping vertically for spherical 1:2.40
15.8 x28mm. 1:1.78
15.8 x 29.3mm 1:1.85
12.5 x 30mm. 1:2.40


Not to dispute what you're saying, because I don't know myself, but can anyone confirm this? This is pretty important for me.

[Jannard]

No matter what the format is of our new sensor,.. you have to work inside of it.

Jim


Not to dispute what you're saying, because I don't know myself, but can anyone confirm this? This is pretty important for me.

[George Petersen]

Red vs the rest is like Mac vs PC. Jim you are the next Steve Jobs :)

You are soooo wrong! Macs have a superior operating system running on sub-par second rate hardware, priced as though it's the top tier. Hence their stunning profitability. Red is both the best OS AND the top tier hardware priced below the second rate crap! A vastly better model that doesn't insult the intelligence of the user!

[Mike Halper]

No matter what the format is of our new sensor,.. you have to work inside of it.

Jim

Just want to be sure as I'd like all my lenses to cover 6K and a lens purchase is affected by this. Thanks for responding.

[Noel R.]

Must be a happy day for EPIC owners. It's like getting a new EPIC for $6K. The Mysterium on my Scarlet hasn't even warmed up yet, but I'm glad I can move on when I'm ready.

[Yann Kempf]

I'm personally disappointed by this announcement, and I much prefer the announcement coming from Black Magic Design for example.
3 years ago you did announce 3K for 3K$ then a 9K$ Scarlet appeared.
You were speaking of Full Frame Sensor and instead of that we're "stuck" at Super 35, so no ultra wide ( I wanna use my Nikon 14-24 e.g.)
It's been 4 or 5 month you're talking about a Nikon mount with aperture control, and still nothing.

RED did influence deeply the market by being 4-5 times less expensive than any other firm stuck in their believes that a pro grade cam should cost as much as a flat.
Now the concurents are there with a same priced camera, I would expect RED to be again 4-5 times less expensive, not as pricey, and with same "proprietary" standards.

Yann

[Ryan Flesher]

I too am wondering about DRAGON sensor coverage at 6k. Will the 18mm Red Pro Prime Cover it? My math (not very good I'm afraid) seems to say the 18 will vignette a bit.
Anyone worked it out for sure?
Ryan

[Humberto Rivera]

I think that the image circle is more around slightly less than 31.8893. That’s just an educated theory for whatever it’s worth! I could be wrong? Based on; EPIC 6K (27.7 x 2 7.7) + (15.8 x 15.8) =1016.93 √1016.93 = 31.8893 or 32

Humberto Rivera

[Mike Halper]

I think that the image circle is more around slightly less than 31.8893. That’s just an educated theory for whatever it’s worth! I could be wrong? Based on; EPIC 6K (27.7 x 2 7.7) + (15.8 x 15.8) =1016.93 √1016.93 = 31.8893 or 32

Humberto Rivera

Where did you get 27 x 15.8 from? Jim already said earlier in this thread the sensor is 30 x 15.8.

[Humberto Rivera]

I think that the old sensor was a full size of 30 x 15 areas; and the new one has a 30 x 15.8 area. However the old sensor has a 5120 x 2700 area; the new one should have an Active Pixel Array of 5120 x 15.8 (or less than 15.8). There is black area that the sensor requires for whatever reason; don’t know why, it just does. The pixels are now “Five” but that should not have any effect on the actual size of the sensor. That’s my opinion for whatever it worth. "31.8893 "

Humberto Rivera

[Mike Halper]

If it has only an active pixel area of 5120 then you wouldn't get 6K. Must be larger in that case.

EDIT: Removed errant information about pixel size.

[Christian Jadot]

How long will upgrades be avalible for after the release?

As for the Scarlet, how about 2 upgrade paths?

1. Just the Sensor cropped to 4K 24/25 fps. For those that just want the higher dynamic range and light sensitivity.

2. The processor and sensor upgrade. (Heck maybe even have a "middle camera" that the Scarlet is upgradable to? The "Crimson" lol) I don't know what the processing power would be and how it would translate into the new resolutions, but for the sake of argument, a bump up in resolution and frame rate. 6K @ 12 fps, 5K @ 24fps, 4K @ 48fps, etc... etc...

PS Hats off to RED for punching the competition back hard! I am excited about the RED Dragon, and how RED is a step ahead of almost everyone.

[Jarred Land]

How long will upgrades be avalible for after the release?

As for the Scarlet, how about 2 upgrade paths?

1. Just the Sensor cropped to 4K 24/25 fps. For those that just want the higher dynamic range and light sensitivity.



Artificially cropping sensors just for marketing purposes sounds like a waste of a perfectly good sensor :)

[Joe Mannion]

Artificially cropping sensors just for marketing purposes sounds like a waste of a perfectly good sensor :)

Amen to that.

[Alexandros Tsoupras]

will the dragon update program run for us european via london red UK?

i hope because of avoiding the custom issues again ...

+1 on that.

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm personally disappointed by this announcement, and I much prefer the announcement coming from Black Magic Design for example.
3 years ago you did announce 3K for 3K$ then a 9K$ Scarlet appeared.
You were speaking of Full Frame Sensor and instead of that we're "stuck" at Super 35, so no ultra wide ( I wanna use my Nikon 14-24 e.g.)
It's been 4 or 5 month you're talking about a Nikon mount with aperture control, and still nothing.

RED did influence deeply the market by being 4-5 times less expensive than any other firm stuck in their believes that a pro grade cam should cost as much as a flat.
Now the concurents are there with a same priced camera, I would expect RED to be again 4-5 times less expensive, not as pricey, and with same "proprietary" standards.

Yann
Yann, RED has moved in direction they feel has the least amount of compromises.

Stuck at S35?

Nikon mount was announced today, shipping in August.

RED will adjust pricing when they need to. What camera shoots 4K and is significantly less priced than a RED?

[Christian Jadot]

Yann, RED has moved in direction they feel has the least amount of compromises.

Stuck at S35?

Nikon mount was announced today, shipping in August.

RED will adjust pricing when they need to. What camera shoots 4K and is significantly less priced than a RED?

The JVC GY-HMQ10. Although it is not nearly in the same class as RED by any means, it shoots Quad HD at a $5k price. (Please don't get me wrong it is not what I am looking for in a camera and does not shoot RAW. But you asked about 4k.)

But I understand your point. Other camera coming out can match RED at a better price at a single point. But no other camera has the total package at the price or the quality.

[Christian Jadot]

Artificially cropping sensors just for marketing purposes sounds like a waste of a perfectly good sensor :)

True, true!

(Although us Scarlet users tend to be cheap bastards!)

[Steve Sherrick]

The JVC GY-HMQ10. Although it is not nearly in the same class as RED by any means, it shoots Quad HD at a $5k price. (Please don't get me wrong it is not what I am looking for in a camera and does not shoot RAW. But you asked about 4k.)

But I understand your point. Other camera coming out can match RED at a better price at a single point. But no other camera has the total package at the price or the quality.
I always forget about JVC. You got me there. Yes, if you want MPEG-4, H.264 4K, that is an option. :-)

[Rob Anderson]

Scott's comment is accurate.
Jarred's comment remained enigmatic, but...
Many, many people chose to believe it meant rewards for not upgrading to Epic. It didn't.
Jim has stated clearly, for years, that the path to The future was to upgrade was to Epic-X.
Many people got this, and it was stated again by Jim in the last 24 hours.
Time to get over it.
I'm not sure what you mean about "rewards for not upgrading to Epic." I don't know anyone with that mentality and it's a bit absurd to suggest. The stage program for original R1 users was fantastic. Everyone agrees (or should -- mental not to, in fact). I'm not an original R1 user. I bought into RED at the tail end of 2011 from someone else that staged. Thrilled I did. I'm repeating myself and it's annoying now, but they got a great deal, I think I got a good one. A month later, I bought an Epic.

I now own an R1, an Epic, and a mountain of RED gear. Love it all.

But maybe it's my extensive software and app development background barking at me. When a product reaches Upgrade EOL (End Of Life) status, it's typical for a vendor to announce such things so the customers can make prudent decisions about investing in hardware, transitioning/phasing hardware, addressing future needs, and all sorts of other things.

This isn't in dispute here; (1) RED has been very good to all of us customers. Particularly good to anyone that took the plunge early (Epic-M, R1). (2) No one is asking for anything free. (3) The Epic is amazing and I hope no one things their R1 can turn into an Epic or a Dragonized Epic. I know I don't. But is there upgrade life after MX? Or are we at UEOL on the R1?

If it's already been addressed (as you say in the last 24 hours), I haven't come across that thread, interview video, or wherever else it may be yet. Great if so. I wouldn't have made 3 comments in this thread about it if after each someone else hadn't come along and acted like I'm begging for a handout or ungrateful. F'sake, I'm well-in and happy. This is informational.

On my Epic side... I cannot wait for the Dragon upgrade. We are using high speed for human motion projects almost every day now and I can tell you absolutely, that 120 FPS at 5K will be put to extremely good use. Thanks all.

[Steve Sherrick]

Rob, Jim has confirmed that R1 is EOL. He said the upgrade path is Epic. This was stated in the past 24 hours.

As a R1 owner, I would have been intrigued by an upgrade path to Dragon, but to be honest I was not really expecting it and Jim had indicated on a few occasions that it probably wouldn't be available for all cameras in the lineup.

What I am curious about and perhaps others are as well is how much further development will go on for R1. It's a pretty solid camera right now. I think they found it difficult, or perhaps taking up too many resources to get the new color science into R1 firmware. Other than that, I think there's only so much they'll be willing to soak into 5 year old technology. Maybe some maintenance firmware here and there, but not expecting anything major.

I'm in the camp that is at peace with what was done for early adopters. I was given the chance to upgrade my R1 in a great deal. Based on how things are structured with the business, I didn't need to do it and kept the R1 because I like the camera and want to hold onto it.

But the simple answer without going back to past comments is that R1 is not going to be upgraded to Dragon. Here is Jim's quote.


The RED ONE had an upgrade path to EPIC.

Think of what options you had with any other camera company.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

not sure what you guys are talking about, but RC3 and RC3 is coming to RED ONE...

[Steve Sherrick]

not sure what you guys are talking about, but RC3 and RC3 is coming to RED ONE...
In all fairness, this was from someone at RED who had suggested it would be difficult. Then again, you guys look "difficult" straight in the face and laugh most of the time anyway, so I'm not surprised if you are able to pull it off. Nice!

Actually, looking back on that post they said it would not be easy, but that they were looking into it and they would keep us posted. So, I probably jumped to the wrong conclusion there. You know what happens when you assume....I will take the hits like a man. :-)

[Jarred Land]

In all fairness, this was from someone at RED who had suggested it would be difficult. Then again, you guys look "difficult" straight in the face and laugh most of the time anyway, so I'm not surprised if you are able to pull it off. Nice!

Actually, looking back on that post they said it would not be easy, but that they were looking into it and they would keep us posted. So, I probably jumped to the wrong conclusion there. You know what happens when you assume....I will take the hits like a man. :-)

nothing we do is easy... but if it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing... :)

[Rob Anderson]

not sure what you guys are talking about, but RC3 and RC3 is coming to RED ONE...
Sweet :) Thank you Jarred.

And Steve Sherrick, thank you for the response as well.

All sounds great. Onward and upward.

[Steve Sherrick]

nothing we do is easy... but if it was easy it wouldn't be worth doing... :)
That's for sure. Like building a 4K camera back in 2007. Yeah, that's going to take off. :-)

[Matthew Mann]

Sorry if I missed this, but was there any word on native ISO on Dragon?

[Mike P.]

Sorry if I missed this, but was there any word on native ISO on Dragon?

Currently 2 stops higher than MX... which implies it might be more by roll-out.

[Jeff Marsten]

There is no path for Dragon to the RED ONE. That upgrade path was RED ONE to EPIC.

Jim
I was told by Red that my MX Red One #1718 didn't qualify for Epic upgrade. Now it's left out again? Why?

[Steve Sherrick]

I was told by Red that my MX Red One #1718 didn't qualify for Epic upgrade. Now it's left out again? Why?
Was your Red One purchased after the deadline for the stage upgrade? Was it purchased second hand?

[Christopher Probst]

Did some quick calculations of all the theoretical format resolutions based on the Dragon's new pixel size. Of course, MOST of these formats are not going to be in the menu on the Epic or Scarlett, but the pixel aspect ratios still hold true and can be entered manually for a custom crop... (Like 5K 16:9 on the current Epic with an MX sensor) and then cropped in RCX.

Here's my rough calculations:

Dragon-Sensor Format Sizes:
6000 x 3160 • 6K Full Frame • 1.89:1 • 30mm x 15.8mm
5618 x 3160 • 6K HD • 1.78:1 • 28mm x 15.8mm
3863 x 3160 • 6K ANA • 1.22:1 • 19.31mm x 15.8mm
6000 x 3000 • 6K 2:1 • 2.0:1 • 30mm x 15mm
6000 x 2530 • 6K 2.37:1 • 2.37:1 • 30mm x 12.65mm
5120 x 2700 • 5K Full Frame • 25.6mm x 13.5mm
4800 x 2700 • 5K HD • 24mm x 13.5mm
3296 x 2700 • 5K ANA • 16.48mm x 13.5mm
5120 x 2560 • 5K 2:1 • 2.0:1 • 25.6mm x 12.8mm
5120 x 2160 • 5K 2.37:1 • 2.37:1 • 25.6mm x 10.8mm
4096 x 2304 • 4K 16:9 • 1.78:1 • 20.48mm x 11.52mm
2816 x 2304 • 4K ANA • 1.22:1 • 14mm x 11.52mm
3840 x 2160 • 4K HD • 1.78:1 • 19.2mm x 10.8mm
4096 x 2048 • 4K 2:1 • 2.0:1 • 20.48mm x 10.24mm
4096 x 1706 • 4K 2.4:1 • 2.40:1 • 20.48mm x 8.53mm
3072 x 1728 • 3K 16:9 • 1.78:1 • 15.36.48mm x 8.64mm
2112 x 1728 • 3K ANA • 10.56mm x 8.64mm
2880 x 1620 • 3K for HD • 14.4mm x 8.1mm
3072 x 1536 • 3K 2:1 • 15.36mm x 7.68mm
3072 x 1280 • 3K 2.4:1 • 15.36mm x 6.4mm
2048 x 1152 • 2K 16:9 • 10.24mm x 5.76mm
2048 x 1024 • 2K 2:1 • 10.24mm x 5.12mm
2048 x 853 • 2K 2.4:1 • 10.24mm x 4.27mm
1920 x 1080 • 1080 HD • 9.6mm x 5.4mm

What REALLY excites me on this list is 6K ANA. Should be totally doable since a large crop is involved to achieve the 1.22:1 aspect ratio, but at that sensor height, 2:1 squeeze anamorphic lenses are only about 10% tighter than their labeled focal length (as set for a standard 35mm anamorphic gate). The hardest thing to do shooting anamorphic on a Red One was getting a wide enough lens. The R1 was about 30% tighter due to the crop with the shorter 12.44mm tall sensor. The Epic with an MX sensor is a little better being about 17% tighter with its 14.58mm tall imager. But with the Dragon raising the sensor height up to 15.8mm, we're only adding about 10% to the focal length, but with resolution of nearly 4K x 3K (3863 x 3160). I'm super stoked about this since I shoot a lot of anamorphic on my Epic. The Alexa Studio with its larger sensor height (17.82mm) matches the lens manufacturer's focal lengths more accurately, but it only delivers 2582 x 2160 for its anamorphic resolution... That makes the Dragon's theoretical Anamorphic 6K mode (if it happens) 150% MORE resolution.

Can't effen wait!

[Patrick Tresch]

Will dragon Make 18bit r3d to hold the 15 stops or will Red start to encore in log?

Just wondering how big an hour of Dragon 6k 2:1 Rc 8:1 will be... brin those 512GB cards!!!

Pat.

[Paul Ellington]

No matter what the format is of our new sensor,.. you have to work inside of it.

Jim

And you have to treat it as life, care for it, and make sure if something goes buggy send it to the Red Doctor.

[SeanBrown]

Do we know when the Scarlet Specs will be released?

[peter semmi]

Red-MX sensor camera group like a lost islands, we were alone, there is no option to step up................thanx

[NDTM studio]

But... at the end.. . how is it possible to get the uphrade?
Is it by EPIC serial numbe? Do we have to wait for an email..?
We are hoping for more and more informations!!!

[Stephen Gentle]

I was told by Red that my MX Red One #1718 didn't qualify for Epic upgrade. Now it's left out again? Why?

The RED ONE doesn't have enough processing power to do 5K, and 6K is almost twice as many pixels...

You'd probably be paying more than $10K just for a bit more sensitivity but still just at 4 or 4.5K, and at a smaller frame size... Which is probably not worth the effort for RED to develop...

It's not like EPIC getting a new sensor makes the RED ONE a worse camera though...

[Jesper Sichlau]

The RED ONE doesn't have enough processing power to do 5K, and 6K is almost twice as many pixels...

You'd probably be paying more than $10K just for a bit more sensitivity but still just at 4 or 4.5K, and at a smaller frame size... Which is probably not worth the effort for RED to develop...

It's not like EPIC getting a new sensor makes the RED ONE a worse camera though...

No but it raises the questions. How many times can you upgrade your camera? And do you need to upgrade it everytime in order to be able to upgrade it in the future?

[Robert L. Mickles]

It took me some time to chime in and read some of the fine details, but this is going to be awesome! Can't wait!

[Gary Jones]

No but it raises the questions. How many times can you upgrade your camera? And do you need to upgrade it everytime in order to be able to upgrade it in the future?

My guesstimate is RED will enable you to upgrade as often as you like, as long as you do it when it is available. Take the path they lay before you and you will be looked after, take a side road or sit back and wait for a while and you are on your own. It would unreasonable for RED to provide an upgrade path for someone after, say, 15 or 20 years.

Think of it like a long distance race, RED are the organizers and have promised to help you along for the whole of the journey from A to B as long as you stick with the main pack. You can join the race at any point. Drop off the pace and they can't promise to keep you up to speed with the rest but they will still help you get where you are going. Just make sure to stop every now and then and look around at how beautiful the view is on that journey.

Good luck getting the same thing from the competition, if you are lucky you might get a map and a vague, "It's that way!"

My 2 cents.

[George Butterfield]

Red-MX sensor camera group like a lost islands, we were alone, there is no option to step up................thanxSure, you can sell all your RED ONE stuff and buy an Epic-X Dragon package, or just shoot a dynamite movie with your current setup.

[Jamshed Mahmood]

Is sensor bigger if yes then already my Cooke s4/I wide angles are showing serious lens barrel. If its larger then how will it work sir?

Jami
azadfilm co
azadfilm.com

[Tom Gleeson]

Jami,

Don't worry although the sensor will be a little bit bigger I am sure Red will allow you to window the sensor so you can use a smaller area of the sensor and your Cooke s4/I wide angles will not vignette.

[Christopher Probst]

Just to put a little more perspective on this Upgrade path... Arri has now offered their larger 4:3 version of their Alev-III sensor for the Alexa Plus and Alexa-M configurations (It was initially only offered in the more costly Alexa Studio with the optical viewfinder). But do you think Arri is offering a $6000 charge to upgrade all of the existing Alexa's out there (for the essentially the SAME sensor, just with masking removed to reveal more of it?) NOPE. You have to buy a complete new camera body. Do you not think that once some of these Alexa Studios with a 4:3 sensor hit the streets that productions won't want to have the option to shoot non-cropped anamorphic, or have room to do vertical repositions with the added sensor area? So now what about all of those 16x9 Alexas out there? Left proverbially hangin...

Just sayin...

Thanks for keep my Epic relevant. I can't wait for 6K... less noise, less compression at higher frame-rates (with the new SSDs), faster sensitivity, more dynamic range AND a 5K image that now fits ALL of the lenses out there!

[Justen Nguyen]

I mean amazing specs aside. Am I the only one excited from the fact that I can now refer to the sensor as dragon?

[Julian Banos]

I mean amazing specs aside. Am I the only one excited from the fact that I can now refer to the sensor as dragon?

You are not alone. I love the name. Just imagine having to call it ALEVIII or some printer kind of name.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Just want to add to how fucking awesome this is........ you nailed it.


The Dragon sensor is slightly larger than the Mysterium-X sensor and the pixel size is slightly smaller. The pixel design and sensor design makes all the difference in the world.(...)

This with every single spec going higher is the perfect scenario. Thank you for all the hard work you put into the heart of your system. I can't wait to play with one.... 15+ stops, higher sensitivity, 6k and a similar sensor size.... YES PLEASE!!

[Brian F Kobylarz]

I mean amazing specs aside. Am I the only one excited from the fact that I can now refer to the sensor as dragon?

To be overheard at some fashion shoot sometime not too far from now:

"Excuse me, but is that a dragon in your body?"

[Jeff Glickman]

Jim, any plans on finding a way to remove the AA filter? That is, presuming there was one previously?

[Bob Gundu]

That would be implying that the image is not sharp enough for you?


Jim, any plans on finding a way to remove the AA filter? That is, presuming there was one previously?

[Shane Betts]

To those complaining about Red One upgrade paths, as Jim has put it before, the Red One upgrade is called Epic and there were several options to allow people to do so at extremely minimal cost. You can bet those guys with 16x9 Alexas won't be getting their purchase price back on a 4:3 camera. I know as well as anyone what it's like to miss the boat because you can't afford the ticket before it sails :-( but my woeful financial state certainly isn't the fault of Jim or Red.

[Jeff Glickman]

No, jus tasking if there was a plan to remove the AA filter.

[Adnan Siddiqui]

Can't wait to shoot on anamorphic lenses on dragon!

[Palmer Woodrow]

I wonder if the color rendition will be improved. Some better blue sensitivity, perhaps?

[Meryem Ersoz]

Everything is being looked at... including the Rocket.

Jim

Huzzah...looking forward to seeing the next gen in debayering. In my opinion, ROCKET is long overdue for an overhaul. What is this technology, 4 years old, now? Ancient in RED years :rolleyes: ...time to hustle it along with everything else, both in terms of what it can do and its price point.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Can't wait to shoot on anamorphic lenses on dragon!

I hope they cover, mate.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I hope they cover, mate.

Mx 5k is 27.65 x 13.825mm
Dragon 6k is 30 x 15.8mm (according to Christopher's extrapolations)
Anamorphic I believe is: 21.95 x 18.6mm

Even with dragon we're still a little too small on the vertical dimension.

[Les Dittert]

Agreed .
With other RAW cameras coming in the next few months, they must revisit the image processing including debayer because the image comparisons are a coming.
I've been fairly consistent in nudging the need now and then.


Huzzah...looking forward to seeing the next gen in debayering. In my opinion, ROCKET is long overdue for an overhaul. What is this technology, 4 years old, now? Ancient in RED years :rolleyes: ...time to hustle it along with everything else, both in terms of what it can do and its price point.

[Wayne Morellini]

Hmm, yes, even my of friends at Apertus have announced 4k project, not sure if it is raw. The point is though, despite how many people that release 4k cameras, that anybody that announces a near $10k offering needs to offer something good, because Scarlet x is already nearly $10k to start. Some of the tech I have seen out there is pretty amazing, maybe not 15 stops native for most, but up to 27 stops enhanced, with starlight ability.

[Dennis Guskov]

wow!
why Epic upgrade is $6000 and Scarlet is TBD? It's the same sensor, same size, same process replacing it, same everything... why differentiate?
seems like it should be the same price for all...

[Jaakko Rinne]

wow!
why Epic upgrade is $6000 and Scarlet is TBD? It's the same sensor, same size, same process replacing it, same everything... why differentiate?
seems like it should be the same price for all...
Around the time the currently shipping Scarlet-X was announced it was stated that to upgrade the Scarlet to the Dragon would require replacing some of the ASICs. With Epics the upgrade (apparently) only requires changing the sensor. Thus it would cost more to upgrade the Scarlet than it would to upgrade the Epic. No one outside of RED obviously knows the specifics, so we're all just guessing here.

[JustinC]

Scarlet upgrades must be tricky. If RED charges the same percentage as the EPIC customers will pay it's gonna be more like $2000. Obviously we can't expect 6k for that, so rather than make it the price of a whole new Scarlet camera, how about an upgrade to the current EPIC 5k specs for Scarlet, once EPIC are all boosted up to 6k?

[Tom Lowe]

A 6K sensor with a lower noise floor and higher dynamic range is going to create BEAUTIFUL 4K renders!! I can't wait to get my hands on this sensor.

[Jake Wilganowski]

Scarlet upgrades must be tricky. If RED charges the same percentage as the EPIC customers will pay it's gonna be more like $2000. Obviously we can't expect 6k for that, so rather than make it the price of a whole new Scarlet camera, how about an upgrade to the current EPIC 5k specs for Scarlet, once EPIC are all boosted up to 6k?

Interesting...

[IAN SUN]

You would still be paying the price of a whole new Scarlet and then some, as what you are asking for is an MX Epic.

[Larry Kelly]

I am almost certain the pricing will not follow percentage of the camera price. It will likely be 5,000.00 or what every the Epic upgrade is plus what ever the cost of the ASICs will be. Bringing Scarlet up to Epic specs would also be very expensive because they would likely have to change even more internal hardware. We can hope for the cost to be less and specs to be higher but wishing for the unattainable will only lead to disappointment.

[Dane Henry]

I am almost certain the pricing will not follow percentage of the camera price. It will likely be 5,000.00 or what every the Epic upgrade is plus what ever the cost of the ASICs will be. Bringing Scarlet up to Epic specs would also be very expensive because they would likely have to change even more internal hardware. We can hope for the cost to be less and specs to be higher but wishing for the unattainable will only lead to disappointment.

Agreed. I'd love to get the FOV of the Epic 5K MX at 24fps (Whatever K that is with the new sensor), and 48fps at 4k, 96 at 3k and 120fps at 2k with the lower noise, dynamic range and other inherent benefits of the Dragon Sensor.

-Dane

[Will Keir]

oh yeah, this is what I'm looking forward to most.

Better than the F65 I hope?



Much better than M-X.

Jim

[Martin Stevens]

My dream is for the soon to be released DRAGON sensor to have at least 8 stops of highlight latitude
when exposed at ISO 800, or in other words, shooting at ISO 800 on the Epic with the DRAGON sensor
will yield at least 8 stops between middle gray and white clip.

So if the DRAGON sensor has 15+ stops of DR, then I would love for this distribution to be 8 stops over middle gray and
7 stops under middle gray when the sensor is exposed at ISO 800.

And since this is a dream, perhaps 8 stops over middle gray at ISO 200 would be even better.

Either way, I can't wait to have my Epic upgraded with a DRAGON.

[Timur Civan]

You can set your mid grey anywhere you like.

Its more or less about your tolerance for noise.

[NDTM studio]

But... at the end.. . how is it possible to get the uphrade?
Is it by EPIC serial numbe? Do we have to wait for an email..?
We are hoping for more and more informations!!!

[Filip Orlandic]

Does EPIC-M have priority for upgrade?

[Dmitry Burenok]

A 6K sensor with a lower noise floor and higher dynamic range is going to create BEAUTIFUL 4K renders!! I can't wait to get my hands on this sensor.

Downscale - secret to picture clarity :))) What if some one figure out how to downscale like top-notch DSLR 36Mpix in real time?

[Curran Giddens]

Does EPIC-M have priority for upgrade?

I'm hoping it just goes by camera delivery date, M or X doesn't matter.

[George Butterfield]

Is it by EPIC serial numbe?It will be based on cash submitted .... first come first served. Maybe the "Epic-M" guys will have a slight advance window ... that would be nice. Maybe e-mail will be sent in serial number order ... But ultimately they will ship on the basis of who sends in the money first.

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

It would be cool if the Dragon was shaped like a cross or just big enough (vertically), giving full Super-35 anamorph image circle!

It's allowed to dream...

[Steve Phillipps]

Just wondering if the deal whereby purchasers of an Epic package totalling $50,000 or more get the upgrade free applies if you're not the original owner? I know someone selling an Epic M Collection, so that's above the $50,000 level, just want to know if I bought it I'd qualify for the free upgrade?
Steve

[Nathan Pizar]

Does it come with Tardis-like mags? ;)

[Jarred Land]

Just wondering if the deal whereby purchasers of an Epic package totalling $50,000 or more get the upgrade free applies if you're not the original owner? I know someone selling an Epic M Collection, so that's above the $50,000 level, just want to know if I bought it I'd qualify for the free upgrade?
Steve

Not unless they purchased the camera originally after that deal was announced at NAB.

[Michael Lindsay]

Sorry I am a bit lost... Is there a deal for epic-m package owners?

Thank you

M

[Bob Gundu]

Sorry I am a bit lost... Is there a deal for epic-m package owners?

Thank you

M

Sort of... You get first dibs on the upgrade.

[Michael Lindsay]

Sort of... You get first dibs on the upgrade.

Cool!

M

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Could we get an option on with the Red Epic Dragon to simply shoot Super-35? 15.8mm x 24,89mm. It would be nice not having to worry about image circles of different lenses. The rest of the sensor area could provide an overscan view in the EVF. I guess it would please a lot of DoP's.

[Louis Maddalena]

Could we get an option on with the Red Epic Dragon to simply shoot Super-35? 15.8mm x 24,89mm. It would be nice not having to worry about image circles of different lenses. The rest of the sensor area could provide an overscan view in the EVF. I guess it would please a lot of DoP's.



This is already an option. You do not need to use the whole sensor, you can scale down resolution to whatever res you desire, and you can use the rest of the resolution for look around.

[Jarred Land]

This is already an option. You do not need to use the whole sensor, you can scale down resolution to whatever res you desire, and you can use the rest of the resolution for look around.

correct.. you can just window to whatever is closest to where you want to be.. then use custom frame guides to dial it in.

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

But in the name of user friendliness, it would be nice to be able to select Super35 in the resolution menu, and get the rest of the sensor area as overscan, without having to learn the whole menu-system and all customization options...

Being raw, all you really need to know on the epic is turning it on, selecting shutter speed, resolutions and how to adjust ISO and color temperature for monitoring, and find the record button. It's quite cool that way.

[Tommaso Alvisi]

BTW I have liked the option of a 4k full frame sensor...30.7×15.8mm or BETTER: 36x18.5mm for Photographic lenses (or lenses with 36x24 coverage).
If used the same silicon tech as the 6k dragon, maybe could be achieved a native clean 3200 iso (or even 6400 iso if 36x18,5) in place of 2000 due to a much relaxed pixel density! ;)
An added bonus would have been we would not have to avoid diffraction limited apertures!
I know I'd gladly pay for it!
And is a PERFECT MATCH for Scarlet users who can't really use the 5k+ resolutions...
4096 x 2160 MAX but with LARGE pixels and an UBER-CLEAN image!
What do you think guys? ;)

[Trevor Meeks]

BTW I have liked the option of a 4k full frame sensor...30.7×15.8mm or BETTER: 36x18.5mm for Photographic lenses (or lenses with 36x24 coverage).
If used the same silicon tech as the 6k dragon, maybe could be achieved a native clean 3200 iso (or even 6400 iso if 36x18,5) in place of 2000 due to a much relaxed pixel density! ;)
An added bonus would have been we would not have to avoid diffraction limited apertures!
I know I'd gladly pay for it!
And is a PERFECT MATCH for Scarlet users who can't really use the 5k+ resolutions...
4096 x 2160 MAX but with LARGE pixels and an UBER-CLEAN image!
What do you think guys? ;)

I think no. 5K or 6K sensor is essential for 4K output.

But yeah, if you want to design and build a camera and sensor with those specs, by all means, go ahead :sifone:

[Tommaso Alvisi]

I think no. 5K or 6K sensor is essential for 4K output.

Yeah, but Red is selling a 4k camera...the Scarlet...it's already 4k only and so best suited for 1080P / 2K clean output...


But yeah, if you want to design and build a camera and sensor with those specs, by all means, go ahead :sifone:

mmm not so constructive comment...

[Guillaume Tremblay]

You'll have to explain to me guys why make a 6k output with a 6k sensor when it seems that you need higher resolution sensor to output a final with less

Arri Alexa has a sensor of higher resolution for a lower output = Wonderful image quality

It seems to me that the RED EPIC offer a 5K image but it really deliver a wonderful 3K resolution. Why saying we have 5K not sharp and just saying you're having a wonderful 3K resolution camera? I don't know if you notice it guys but it's the same thing with the 5D Mark II. It says it makes HD video but you need to compress it in 720P to have a pin sharp signal. Please comment. I need to know if I'm mistaking about this.

[Matthew Scott]

You'll have to explain to me guys why make a 6k output with a 6k sensor when it seems that you need higher resolution sensor to output a final with less

Arri Alexa has a sensor of higher resolution for a lower output = Wonderful image quality

It seems to me that the RED EPIC offer a 5K image but it really deliver a wonderful 3K resolution. Why saying we have 5K not sharp and just saying you're having a wonderful 3K resolution camera? I don't know if you notice it guys but it's the same thing with the 5D Mark II. It says it makes HD video but you need to compress it in 720P to have a pin sharp signal. Please comment. I need to know if I'm mistaking about this.

That's it, you've got it :) But it's nice to be able to have the choice of what to do with your resolution right?

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

It seems to me that the RED EPIC offer a 5K image but it really deliver a wonderful 3K resolution.

5K image is real 4K after debayering. Red One's 4,5K is probably 3,5K. Whatever, it looks as good as 35mm scanned at 4K.

[Phil Holland]

The interesting thing with debayer and working with raw is you have control of the perceived resolution of your final image.

Depending on how you want your final image to look and feel simple scaling of 5k down to 4k produces one result. Scaling and sharpening produces a different one. Depending on how much of an "edge" you want your in focus subject matter to have is completely up to you. On top of this there are different scaling and sharpening methods to explore as well.

Also, different subject matter and lenses provide different results. For instance I find that if I shoot wider than 18mm I tend to sharpen more aggressively. For certain CU or MCU shots I'll sometimes not sharpen at all.

Besides the technical merit of "pristine 4k" there's a whole lot of creative wiggle room that comes from having a higher source acquisition resolution.

[Jack Shanahan]

The interesting thing with debayer and working with raw is you have control of the perceived resolution of your final image.

Depending on how you want your final image to look and feel simple scaling of 5k down to 4k produces one result. Scaling and sharpening produces a different one. Depending on how much of an "edge" you want your in focus subject matter to have is completely up to you. On top of this there are different scaling and sharpening methods to explore as well.

Also, different subject matter and lenses provide different results. For instance I find that if I shoot wider than 18mm I tend to sharpen more aggressively. For certain CU or MCU shots I'll sometimes not sharpen at all.

Besides the technical merit of "pristine 4k" there's a whole lot of creative wiggle room that comes from having a higher source acquisition resolution.

well said. i am finding this to be true as well.

[Christopher Lowden]

6k is probably great, if I could find a way to see it. Strange that all the other manufacturers are giving much higher frame rates. As a director armed with a scarlet I would be happy to get the same frame rates as the Sony NEX FS 700 rather than 6k that has a mind boggling workflow.

[Lee Saxon]

The main reason Red can't give you the same frame rates per dollar that Sony does is not Red's resolution but Sony's massive compression.

1080p raw would probably be more MB/s than 6K in an 8-bit codec.

[Ale Houston]

Hi Jarred!! Show us some Dragon love man.. it's Oct 11 and we are still not watching the jaw dropping images this beast is going to make!!.. i mean.. dude.. we are 80 days away from Dic 31.. time for some teasing!!.. :)

[Henrik Andersson]

I'd just like to say...it took me almost 3-4 months to choose between #canon and #red for my future camera, so so happy i chose #red ;)

Had my Scarlet for about just under a month and love it

I hope since the Scarlet was due 120fps in SD
maybe with the dragon update the 120fps will be in 3K with either no crop or the crop 3K is currently in

4K would be great but i will def settle with 120fps in 3K ;)

My guess is that the pixel rate stays the same.
Our M-X Epics can handle 5k at 120fps (5k-WS) now, an upgrade to Dragon give us ... 5k at 120 fps (5k-WS?) and 6k at 85fps. This gives me a clue that when the sensor is changed, nothing in the rest of pixel path is upgraded to higher spec.
To keep the upgrade of the Scarlet at a decent price, I would guess they don't upgrade the rest of the signal path in the Scarlet either.

This is my guess based on the info I've seen so far. Only RED knows their plans of course. IF they know it yet ... ;-)

/Henrik

[Samir Patel]

I have a question regarding the future Dragon update. I just recently purchased my Scarlet (a few months ago) and am unfamiliar about how upgrades have worked in the past. I am considering purchasing a second Scarlet in the interim considering the Scarlet Dragon update may be some time away. My question is in the past has there been a deadline for submitting an upgrade request? Would like to know how much time I would have to save up for upgrading one or both cameras in the future. How did the original sensor upgrades work and if someone didn't upgrade would they still be able to today?

[KETCH ROSSi]

Are we still in line with a possible upgrade within 2012? And will it be both at the same time for Dragon and Dragon Monochrome?




OK... it begins.

Jim

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1334611910.jpg

[Jarred Land]

Are we still in line with a possible upgrade within 2012? And will it be both at the same time for Dragon and Dragon Monochrome?

Unfortunately not.... New ASIC is being built to go along with the sensor remember, the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.

[Phil Holland]

(better than the poster )

Spoiler alert! That's only good news.

[Nils Ruinet]

Unfortunately not.... New ASIC is being built to go along with the sensor remember, the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.
Can't wait to get it ;)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Unfortunately not.... New ASIC is being built to go along with the sensor remember, the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.


No prob Jarred, I like the sound of that much better any ways, M8 will patiently await her turn to get Dragonsized... ;)

[Patrick Grossien]

Unfortunately not.... New ASIC is being built to go along with the sensor remember, the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.

With great power comes great responsibility!

Hehehe.

Though you already mentioned it being better than expected, the "better than the poster" is awesome news! :)

[Fredrik Harreschou]

... the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.

I doubt that neither resolution or frame rate changed in the fab process... ;)

[Chuck Z]

Spoiler alert! That's only good news.
++

Indeed. At least there is a legitimate engineering reason for delaying the release. Perhaps this will give you further time to optimize the heat output of the ASIC as well.

[Rohan B]

Will it be ready before production on THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 begins??? And that is is March i guess..
i really want that movie to be shot on RED EPIC DRAGONs................

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

I doubt that neither resolution or frame rate changed in the fab process... ;)

Gee, what's left there then... I guess just little things like dynamic range, noise floor and color rendition... oh wait :)

[KETCH ROSSi]

Unfortunately not.... New ASIC is being built to go along with the sensor remember, the sensors came back from fab better than expected (better than the poster ) and have exceed the capabilities of the original Dragon ASIC.


Re-Quoting you, as now I have also the joy of going to put also the EPIC Monochrome under the knife for the Dragon upgrade, can't wait... Even so EPIC MX sensor is surely capturing some insane images it self... So no rush really, just excited to see how the Dragon Flies and Spitting fire at night, now both in Color and Monochrome... ;)

[Justin O'Neill]

Perhaps this will give you further time to optimize the heat output of the ASIC as well.

That was the first thing that went through my head when Jarred announced the new ASIC. The 3 years since they designed the last ASIC is a lifetime in the tech world. Hardware gets faster and cooler so I think people who shoot a lot of interviews will be jumping for joy once Dragon is out.

[Justin O'Neill]

I doubt that neither resolution or frame rate changed in the fab process... ;)

Actually I think it's highly likely frame rates will go up. From what Jim and Jarred have said it seems the ASIC and the chips in the camera are what determine framerates, not the sensor itself. Scarlet and Epic have the exact same sensor but it is the ASIC and chips in the Epic that allow it to have 10x faster frames per second.

I suspect the new ASIC will be MUCH cooler at 24fps and will probably be able to go well above 100fps @6k. No inside info, just a guess based on how far tech has advanced in the 2 - 3 years since the last ASIC was designed.

[Arturo Sánchez]

I just wish to use the HDR-X mode in a S35 area on Scarlet,no matter wich resolution

[Quentin Devillers]

Hello,
I would like to know one thing :
When the Dragon will be released what will be the price of the Epic/Scarlet with the Dragon ? Will it stay the same or increase ?
If my memory is good the price of the Red One didn't change when MX came out... isn't it ?

Thanks !

[Stefan Antonescu]

Hello,
I would like to know one thing :
When the Dragon will be released what will be the price of the Epic/Scarlet with the Dragon ? Will it stay the same or increase ?
If my memory is good the price of the Red One didn't change when MX came out... isn't it ?

Thanks !
Red One went from $17,500 (M) to $25,000 (MX) for a new camera. You could upgrade you "M" to "MX" for $5,750, if I remember well. That's the actual price anyway...

The Dragon update will cost $6,000 for Epic. Price still unknown for Scarlet.

[Quentin Devillers]

Ok thanks !
So Epic should be 25K with Dragon...

[Andrew Huse]

If Roger Deakins ditches the Alexa for RED Epic when Dragon is released, I will be impressed.

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

If Roger Deakins ditches the Alexa for RED Epic when Dragon is released, I will be impressed.

Roger's happy with the current resolution and latitude of Alexa, though he agrees 4K image is much better for IMAX and similar screens. He'd probably keep shooting with Alexa until Arri 4K thing is out... unless Dragon turns out so much beyond celluloid and any of the competition.

[Brandon H]

I'm ready to be Dragonborn!!!

[NDTM studio]

Waiting for the mail from RED BOMB SQUAD!

[Rohan B]

The clock is ticking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rohan B]

cone on red guys give us some news!!! it has been a long time....

[Jarred Land]

cone on red guys give us some news!!! it has been a long time....

Hey Rohan.. sorry what did you want to know?

[Tommaso Alvisi]

info about dragon for scarlet...

[Jarred Land]

info about dragon for scarlet...

There is no new info yet.... trust me you will know when there is.

[Tommaso Alvisi]

thanks jarred! and E.T.A. for Epic? ;) Turnaround time?

[Josh Beadle]

Would like a solid time frame on Epic Dragon so I can plan my underwater housing, lighting etc path. I thought the NAB timeline was by year end. With uncertainty I will probably go the Canon 1Dc route since the housing that fits my 1Dx will also fit that. ISO320 doesn't cut it at 60' under water or in caves lit by portables so I need to make a move soon for a project filming in February.

[Jarred Land]

Would like a solid time frame on Epic Dragon so I can plan my underwater housing, lighting etc path. I thought the NAB timeline was by year end. With uncertainty I will probably go the Canon 1Dc route since the housing that fits my 1Dx will also fit that. ISO320 doesn't cut it at 60' under water or in caves lit by portables so I need to make a move soon for a project filming in February.

It wont be by feb so you are best to start thinking about your plan B. Sensors and the other bits needed to do the upgrade are on track to start coming out later next month as planned, but we need to wait for the new ASIC, which will be well into march, and then the upgrade process begins which will take some time. Realistically.. and its just a guess with so many balls in the air, you are probably looking around NAB time.

[Felix K.]

Would like a solid time frame on Epic Dragon so I can plan my underwater housing, lighting etc path. I thought the NAB timeline was by year end. With uncertainty I will probably go the Canon 1Dc route since the housing that fits my 1Dx will also fit that. ISO320 doesn't cut it at 60' under water or in caves lit by portables so I need to make a move soon for a project filming in February.

Never plan on RED's announced deadlines... it's a rule...

[Jarred Land]

Never plan on RED's announced deadlines... it's a rule...

I would like to think that we are very good.. if not the very best, at missing every single one of our deadlines.

[Tom Greenberg]

I would like to think that we are very good.. if not the very best, at missing every single one of our deadlines.
Post of the month...made me laugh out loud...

[Steve Gibby]

True Jarred, but IMO with Red its always been well worth the wait ;)

Good things come to those who are patient...

[Maz Mawlawi]

Will dragon be fully usable at launch time? In other words will all the features that we currently have on our Epic such as video an audio playback, HDMI and Sdi out etc... Be enabled on day one or we will have growing pains all over again with certain features due to new Asics?

[Sergio Perez]

I would like to think that we are very good.. if not the very best, at missing every single one of our deadlines.

LOL! No complains. My "deadline" is November. Its the 60th Anniversary of the Macau Grand Prix. It would be Epic if it was "Dragon Epic". This year I just captured absolutely stunning imagery on Epic. Didnt have time to colour correct it properly yet, but I will do a 4K montage of Grand Prix footage that looks ratter good- for next year's Red festival (as well as for some high profile TVC's, but those are not displayed in 4K...)

[Stacey Spears]

Realistically.. and its just a guess with so many balls in the air, you are probably looking around NAB time.

Thank you for the rough timeline.

A follow-up question would be when do you think we might see the first image(s) from a Dragon sensor? Will you show us before you have the new ASIC?

[Jarred Land]

Thank you for the rough timeline.

A follow-up question would be when do you think we might see the first image(s) from a Dragon sensor? Will you show us before you have the new ASIC?

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

[Patrick Grossien]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

woooohoooooOOOO!

EDIT: finally. hehehe

[Patrick Grossien]

any clarification on the teaser/spoiler that the facts on the poster have been surpassed?

[Jeremiah Patton]

Can't wait to see the footage! I was a bit disappointed with the way scarlet was working but then I built a hackintosh and editing it was a dream. The footage really came to life ... such amazing colours! Anyways, bring on those two more stops of Dynamic Range!

[Detlev Eller]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

:-)

[Phil Holland]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

'tis the season.

[Martin Stevens]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

Yeee haaaa!

[Kemalettin Sert]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

just tell me is it above 14 stop?

[Martin Stevens]

just tell me is it above 14 stop?

If the MX sensor is 13+ stops, then according to what has already been conveyed
the Dragon sensor should have a least 15+ stops.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

Release the Kraken!

[Kemalettin Sert]

If the MX sensor is 13+ stops, then according to what has already been conveyed
the Dragon sensor should have a least 15+ stops.

same DR like Alexa quite enough..

[Will Keir]

Josh,

Shoot in 5k, you already got the camera, it's worth the investment, you won't always be young, make those shots last a lifetime.


Would like a solid time frame on Epic Dragon so I can plan my underwater housing, lighting etc path. I thought the NAB timeline was by year end. With uncertainty I will probably go the Canon 1Dc route since the housing that fits my 1Dx will also fit that. ISO320 doesn't cut it at 60' under water or in caves lit by portables so I need to make a move soon for a project filming in February.

[Will Keir]

The Dragon sensor release won't coincide with the year of the Dragon?


I would like to think that we are very good.. if not the very best, at missing every single one of our deadlines.

[jacob.schwarz]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)

AWESOME!! Can't wait! Really I can't.

[Dan Frenkel]

THE GUYS OVER AT PANAVISION ARE CRYING FOUL!!! LOL, They told me they are getting killed in their camera rental dept. because everyone seems to be going for RED and Alexa. They still dont rent glass unless you rent their cameras so, I guess they still have the 50' techno cranes and camera support side of the biz. LOL

[Josh Beadle]

It wont be by feb so you are best to start thinking about your plan B. Sensors and the other bits needed to do the upgrade are on track to start coming out later next month as planned, but we need to wait for the new ASIC, which will be well into march, and then the upgrade process begins which will take some time. Realistically.. and its just a guess with so many balls in the air, you are probably looking around NAB time.

Thank you for the clarity and continued efforts. Would have rather heard CES than NAB though (wink)

[Jarred Land]

If the MX sensor is 13+ stops, then according to what has already been conveyed
the Dragon sensor should have a least 15+ stops.

More than 15...

[paul schefz]

More than 15...
oh man....i wish you wouldn't use "march" and "more then 15 stops" in one thread....
what are we supposed to do? hiberate?:)

[Martin Stevens]

More than 15...

Since I have poor math skills "More than 15" must be 16, but since you reported that you had to make
new ASICs to handle better than expected sensors, I'm leaning more towards 16+.

:)

[Björn Benckert]

THE GUYS OVER AT PANAVISION ARE CRYING FOUL!!! LOL, They told me they are getting killed in their camera rental dept. because everyone seems to be going for RED and Alexa. They still dont rent glass unless you rent their cameras so, I guess they still have the 50' techno cranes and camera support side of the biz. LOL

I thought panavision rented out both "panavised" epics and alexas, no?

[Phil Holland]

I thought panavision rented out both "panavised" epics and alexas, no?

Yep. And a few others in there too.

[Björn Benckert]

Yep. And a few others in there too.
So why is Dan stating that they are "crying fools"? I think they got a quite solid business idea that more should benefit from following, which seams to be to: only rent out full camera packages and make sure quality is better than what others can offer and then charge for it. Or is there not any people willing to pay for that sort of things any more?

[Niko Pueringer]

Would love to know what kind of framerate increases (if any) we might be looking at with the Dragon sensor.

[Phil Holland]

So why is Dan stating that they are "crying fools"? I think they got a quite solid business idea that more should benefit from following, which seams to be to: only rent out full camera packages and make sure quality is better than what others can offer and then charge for it. Or is there not any people willing to pay for that sort of things any more?

I'm not sure, but PV has a LOT of Epics at their disposal worldwide as well as service and support. I don't think they are crying fools. Their support are hardworking folks too. They rent them out with custom mounts to use their glass. You can't rent their glass (usually) without a body. They also have a great deal of custom kit bits that I like. I think the dynamic change has been more of the transition from film to digital and PV only makes one camera that isn't the most popular girl at the dance. Although she works in TV a bit out here still.

I was there before Thanksgiving and regularly swing by. The new location in Woodland Hills is pretty nice too. Stage 1 will be missed though.
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/random_2010/bigs/pVideoPano.jpg

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/film_TheWolfman/bigs/WoflmanSetPhotos_0001.jpg

[Dan Frenkel]

I'm not sure, but PV has a LOT of Epics at their disposal worldwide as well as service and support. I don't think they are crying fools. Their support are hardworking folks too. They rent them out with custom mounts to use their glass. You can't rent their glass (usually) without a body. They also have a great deal of custom kit bits that I like. I think the dynamic change has been more of the transition from film to digital and PV only makes one camera that isn't the most popular girl at the dance. Although she works in TV a bit out here still.

I was there before Thanksgiving and regularly swing by. The new location in Woodland Hills is pretty nice too. Stage 1 will be missed though.
http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/random_2010/bigs/pVideoPano.jpg

http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photography/film_TheWolfman/bigs/WoflmanSetPhotos_0001.jpg

CORRECTION TO PEOPLE MIS-STATING ME (ITS CRYING FOUL) NOT FOOLS!!!! What I meant by that is the very expensive PANAVISION PANAFLEX 35MM are staying at home a bit more lately, nobody is asking her out anymore!!! LOL....Dont be so serious guys!!! -RESPECTS

[Phil Holland]

Ah gotcha. I actually think they are doing a pretty good job at keeping their core business strategy in place while this transition to digital capture becomes more and more popular. And a lot of that PV glass looks really nice on Epic. There are now a lot more owner/operators out there and I know that's been another big swing in the industry.

Back to Dragon though. Toes wigglin' just thinking about that latitude.

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

More than 15 stops native... Jesus...

[Patrick Grossien]

Isn't 18 more than 15 too? hehehe - aaaah one can dream right?

EDIT
Since 15+ has been announced since NAB we might even get lucky and get a different number before the plus sign. Every stop + is worth a loud Boooooyah ! I might even throw in a raised fist.

[Taylor F.]

Just for the record, I'm going to guess that 15+ means somewhere between 15 and 16 stops...

And I think that deserves a booyah and a raised fist!

[Filip Orlandic]

Jarred,

how many cameras will be upgraded per month?

[Rohan B]

any news yet??? its been a really long time. The end of the world is also over....
i think we really need some dragon news now.....

[Josh Snyder]

Next month we will show frames from Dragon :)
So where are they :p

[Joe Kleber]

So where are they :p


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92158-Enter-the-Dragon




"Real" Images coming soon... ( but not tonight )

[Steve Arcenio]

I cant wait for my epic to be ordered....