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Jarred Land
04-15-2012, 11:02 PM
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1334613856.jpg

Beta Unit being presented in our booth starting tomorrow... come take a look.

Antonio Forjaz
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
not loosing this boat for sure....

Ryan Nichols
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
GIVE IT TO ME : )

Kevin Wild
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
Can't wait to see this in action. Tomorrow at NAB?

Yannick Sadler
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
120FPS 3D !!! !you guys are nuts! :-)

Under 10K... For sure one will find it's way here...

Brad Allen
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
Can't wait! Wish I was at NAB to see this in action :)

Ryan Nichols
04-15-2012, 11:03 PM
I’m getting that when it hits the store!!!

jake blackstone
04-15-2012, 11:04 PM
Any possibility of the demo any time soon?

jimhare
04-15-2012, 11:04 PM
Oh my God!

Greg M
04-15-2012, 11:04 PM
when can we order?

Mike McEntire
04-15-2012, 11:06 PM
Holy Moly. Glad I came out to NAB this year. Can't wait to see some goods in the morning.

BillBarnes
04-15-2012, 11:07 PM
Jarred, what projector was used at the tropicana party just now? The red ray sounds amazing

Philipe Ratton
04-15-2012, 11:07 PM
under 10k, you guys are nuts

Philipe Ratton
04-15-2012, 11:10 PM
gonna need a bigger grading suite

Bob Gundu
04-15-2012, 11:11 PM
Jarred, what projector was used at the tropicana party just now? The red ray sounds amazing

Looked like it was a Christie projector to me.

Detlev Eller
04-15-2012, 11:13 PM
... completing the circle, excellent ... this very, very, exciring!

Jannard
04-15-2012, 11:13 PM
The only RED Laser Projector is at the RED booth at NAB. It is a Beta unit.

Jim

jacob.schwarz
04-15-2012, 11:14 PM
This night is just getting better and better! I'm happy to be a part of this red family.

Paul E. McCarthy
04-15-2012, 11:16 PM
Awesome, What codec does it project.? Can you grade with this?

Cüneyt Kaya
04-15-2012, 11:16 PM
so arthouse cinemas will have 4k projectors too i guess. thats cool!
everybody with 1080p content should be ready to cry in a couple of years.

Antoine Baumann
04-15-2012, 11:22 PM
Color Gamut? Full DCI-P3? And would it be possible to switch to Rec.709 gamut/color space?

Greg M
04-15-2012, 11:23 PM
What kind of inputs?
Does it require REDray player or will it accept HDMI and hd-sdi inputs?

Ryan Nichols
04-15-2012, 11:29 PM
Any renders or pictures of this?

John Aldrich
04-15-2012, 11:30 PM
Will definitely be interested to see this in action. On the NAB floor tomorrow... right?

Stuart English
04-15-2012, 11:30 PM
What kind of inputs?
Does it require REDray player or will it accept HDMI and hd-sdi inputs?

- Includes internal REDray Player

- Also accepts HDMI or HD-SDI input

Paul E. McCarthy
04-15-2012, 11:31 PM
Sweet

Greg M
04-15-2012, 11:31 PM
- Includes internal REDray Player

- Also accepts HDMI or HD-SDI input

Very nice!!

Yannick Sadler
04-15-2012, 11:35 PM
- Includes internal REDray Player

Whoa! Seriously? For under 10K$! OMG! :-)

OK, I might even take two of those...

Jonathan McGuire
04-15-2012, 11:35 PM
Can someone who sees this thing in action please post what find of glasses are used, I'm hoping it isn't polarized and if I am right this thing is going to be perfect!

Zack CC
04-15-2012, 11:40 PM
What does "no calibration" mean?

Petri Teittinen
04-15-2012, 11:41 PM
- Includes internal REDray Player

- Also accepts HDMI or HD-SDI input
Fantastic!

Fergus Meiklejohn
04-15-2012, 11:42 PM
yeah, is this a projector designed only for RED footage or is it just a kick ass projector??

Sergio Perez
04-15-2012, 11:42 PM
Woohoo! Will get this for sure!!

Ketch Rossi
04-15-2012, 11:44 PM
Buying one of this as IMMEDIATELY AS IT BECOMES AVAILABLE, I have way too many 3D Blue Rays waiting at home... ;)

Erich Ocean
04-15-2012, 11:46 PM
Buying one of this as IMMEDIATELY AS IT BECOMES AVAILABLE, I have way too many 3D Blue Rays waiting at home... ;)

Me too, I've been holding off on a new projector waiting for this.

Hans Magnus Kvåle
04-15-2012, 11:49 PM
+1 This is great!


Me too, I've been holding off on a new projector waiting for this.

Alex Kiritz
04-15-2012, 11:50 PM
Since this is RED and the Laser has a 25K hour life it would seem safe to assume there will be a 8K upgrade in ~5 years. Right?

Steve Johnson
04-15-2012, 11:52 PM
This is what I've been waiting for, and with integrated REDray. So cool. AND no calibration.

Can't wait to hook one of those up to the grading suite.

As good as ordered...

:))

Phil Holland
04-15-2012, 11:54 PM
Game changer. Huge game changer. Like out of this world game changer.

Brandon J.F.
04-15-2012, 11:57 PM
Game changer. Huge game changer. Like out of this world game changer.

No doubt. This is huge news. I'm all over this when it comes out!

Erich Ocean
04-15-2012, 11:58 PM
Game changer. Huge game changer. Like out of this world game changer.

+1000 Now RED's name is finally starting to make sense: RED Digital Cinema

They've got products now for the entire ecosystem, from acquisition to distribution and into the home. Jim's a genius.

Cüneyt Kaya
04-16-2012, 12:00 AM
can you grade on the projector?

Petri Teittinen
04-16-2012, 12:01 AM
They've got products now for the entire ecosystem, from acquisition to distribution and into the home.
I think Sony already had that. At least, that's what they've been saying for quite a while now.

Henrik Cednert
04-16-2012, 12:02 AM
What's the gamut of a projector like this? How come it doesn't need calibration? Doesn't drift at all? It it possible to measure it to make sure it is on target? It is suitable for grading, right?

Alexander Thomson
04-16-2012, 12:05 AM
I'm not gonna get any sleep tonight because i'm too excited about seeing the beta tomorrow. And if I do, all i'm going to be able to dream about is RED RED RED!

Erich Ocean
04-16-2012, 12:06 AM
I think Sony already had that. At least, that's what they've been saying for quite a while now.

Not at 4K. Hard to call it Digital Cinema otherwise, no?

Petri Teittinen
04-16-2012, 12:07 AM
Not at 4K. Hard to call it Digital Cinema otherwise, no?
Well, you did not qualify 4K in your post ;) But sure, RED now has the complete 4K pipeline -- which is utterly awesome.

Will Keir
04-16-2012, 12:08 AM
wow, 2012 is really the year of 4k. I can't imagine what 4k will look like on a big screen in my living room/daily room

Marc Wielage
04-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Great news! If this can be calibrated to the traditional DCI spec and XYZ color space, I could see the Red Laser projector becoming the standard for post all over the world.

Heck, at $10K, I bet it'll sell very well just to well-heeled videophiles and home users, too. Congrats to Red -- I look forward to seeing the finished version when it's available.

Steve Johnson
04-16-2012, 12:26 AM
Any chance of a picture of it, for those of us that couldn't make it to NAB?

Pppppplllllleeeeeeaaaaassseeeee

:))

Tehben Dean
04-16-2012, 12:32 AM
Any chance of a picture of it, for those of us that couldn't make it to NAB?

Pppppplllllleeeeeeaaaaassseeeee

:))

+1.

mikeburton
04-16-2012, 12:41 AM
Want to order now!

Ryan Farnes
04-16-2012, 12:44 AM
Under $10,000?

Wow. You have my attention now.

Michel Hafner
04-16-2012, 12:48 AM
Sounds good for 2D, but what about 3D???? This requires special polarity preserving screens, right? Standard
Stewart screens etc. will not work for 3D, right? :confused1:

Alex Kiritz
04-16-2012, 01:05 AM
These lasers are supposed to be really efficient so I guess red is now green. With redray replacing bluray the whole gamut is pretty much covered.

Jonathan McGuire
04-16-2012, 01:12 AM
Sounds good for 2D, but what about 3D???? This requires special polarity preserving screens, right? Standard
Stewart screens etc. will not work for 3D, right? :confused1:

Only if they use polarization for 3D, hopefully they are using something similar to what Infitec makes for Dolby 3D that can be used with any screen and practically eliminates ghosting, we should knw tomorrow once someone lets us know what kind of glasses are handed out, if they look like this and have a reflective lens that will be great news!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nfvnk3YEgnE/SiddC437RGI/AAAAAAAAAFM/scFXGHDLCIs/s400/dolby_2008-04-18.jpg

Cristian Nicolescu
04-16-2012, 01:13 AM
Will Red camera owners get it first?

Liana
04-16-2012, 01:21 AM
Unreal. Totally speechless.

What must be going through the minds of executives at JVC, Christie, Sony et al.....they might soon be unemployed!

Red continues to be the most disruptive player in the industry -no half measures here- and we love you for it!

Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 01:23 AM
Unreal. Totally speechless.

What must be going through the minds of executives at JVC, Christie, Sony et al.....they might soon be unemployed!

Red continues to be the most disruptive player in the industry -no half measures here- and we love you for it!


We really are just getting started. Truly.

Christoffer Glans
04-16-2012, 01:30 AM
We really are just getting started. Truly.

I'm assuming that this projector also falls under the category of upgradability? So with new technology coming we can upgrade this like we upgrade cameras?
If so... when can I preorder my life-savings away?

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-16-2012, 01:32 AM
We really are just getting started. Truly.

Hmmm... maybe that's why Graeme took my picture at the party after I started talking about astronomy and adaptive optics - sensors and optical elements being moved/adjusted/corrected on a micron scale hundreds of times a second... ;-)

Mike

Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 01:32 AM
I'm assuming that this projector also falls under the category of upgradability? So with new technology coming we can upgrade this like we upgrade cameras?
If so... when can I preorder my life-savings away?

Of course :)

The laser is modular. Replace the projector head. Replace the Laser engine. Replace the RedRay player. It even has a RED MOUNT to replace the lenses.

Christoffer Glans
04-16-2012, 01:35 AM
Of course :)

The laser is modular. Replace the projector head. Replace the Laser engine. Replace the RedRay player. It even has a RED MOUNT to replace the lenses.

I want the first one, can I preorder under the table? :001_tt1:

Steve Johnson
04-16-2012, 01:39 AM
Of course :)

The laser is modular. Replace the projector head. Replace the Laser engine. Replace the RedRay player. It even has a RED MOUNT to replace the lenses.

So Cool. Again RED tops the competition. Love the fact that it has a RED MOUNT to replace the lenses.

Can you give any specs on what it will play? Like DCP? etc.

Take it its colour accurate for grading without the calibration then Jarred? Would assume so!

Playback from REDCine-X Pro?

:))

Scott Brown
04-16-2012, 01:47 AM
This is HUGE! At last we're able to show our clients their material in 4K :smiley:

Count us in for one!

Scott

Steve Johnson
04-16-2012, 02:03 AM
This is HUGE! At last we're able to show our clients their material in 4K :smiley:

Count us in for one!

Scott

So 2 RED Projectors in Scotland for starters then Scott!!!!

Michael Brennan
04-16-2012, 02:08 AM
Good stuff and I'm really excited that RED is pushing into display.

Does the price include a lens?


Mike Brennan

RivaiC
04-16-2012, 02:31 AM
Most importantly. What is the color gamut on this projector ? What do u mean by no calibration ?

roryhinds
04-16-2012, 02:33 AM
This all sounds like the projector will only play content from a RedRay so you can not connect it to a DI suite and run it like a Barco, Christie or JVC which connects to your suite via HDSDI.
I hope I'm wrong in my assumption.

Pascal Scheffers
04-16-2012, 02:55 AM
25,000+ hours. That's almost three years continuously on. About decade if you run it 8 hours a day and go out to shoot something every now and then too. Or basically the last projector you'll ever buy if you were, say, to buy it as a consumer who also has a life.

Tell me, the other bits, the moving bits, fans, drives, the power supply, those are easy to replace by the user? My experience tells me, those will not last so long.

Pascal Scheffers
04-16-2012, 02:57 AM
This all sounds like the projector will only play content from a RedRay so you can not connect it to a DI suite and run it like a Barco, Christie or JVC which connects to your suite via HDSDI.
I hope I'm wrong in my assumption.

Incorrect:


- Includes internal REDray Player

- Also accepts HDMI or HD-SDI input

luigivaltulini
04-16-2012, 03:09 AM
OOOHHHHH MY GOD..........

roryhinds
04-16-2012, 03:41 AM
Nice, I missed that post.

Its great news that it takes HDMI and HDSDI input.
I assume it will upres a 1920x1080 HDSDI signal to 4k.

Jack Jones
04-16-2012, 04:09 AM
Would be good to get a teaser of the specs from a DI POV.

XYZ input? 4k input over HD-SDI?
DCI P3 or an even wider gamut?

Aaron Fritz
04-16-2012, 04:56 AM
I like the tease, but would actually like to know more about the specs.

What tech is is using. DLP LCOS Laser Scanning. Will I need a Silver screen or Regular White screen for 3d.

Frank Cueto
04-16-2012, 05:03 AM
In my case, I am wondering if that "under $10,000" it's like the scarlet, which is useless at its marketed purchase price. Yes, I'll buy the extra lens and what not.

Also, they really should spill the beans on the whole color space/no calibration stuff.

Scott Brown
04-16-2012, 05:20 AM
So 2 RED Projectors in Scotland for starters then Scott!!!!

Hi Steve

This is really exciting - I remember the first time I saw Red footage played back on Sony's 4K projector, this is what made me take out my cheque book at NAB in 2007.

Got our Epic now up and running with a "gentle" first shoot coming up on Friday :smiley:

Best wishes

Scott

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 06:05 AM
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1334613856.jpg

Beta Unit being presented in our booth starting tomorrow... come take a look.

Nooooooooooooooo! .... only does a 15 inch screen ;)

Thanks, pity it does not have 8k, but redray player and upgradability is a nice touch. But, I have to ask, can the upgradability be made user instalkable (seaked back box modukes that are slited in and out). Sending it to the states to be upgraded would be a bit cistly and time consuming. Even with the cameras that would be nice (maybe future modes).

Must say that it might not be similar to one of my advanced designs in the offer Jim, needs glasses, but wait to see the design specs.

Dan Graetz
04-16-2012, 06:07 AM
Last week we ran the cabling for my DI suite in our new studio build (after the last one got smashed in the Brisbane floods). In what can only be described as a blind leap of faith I decided to run 4 seemingly-redundant HD-SDI leads from the desk to the projector mount. Now here a week later I find a giant chunk of validation.

Dan love RED

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 06:30 AM
Wow, good on you!

Yannick Verry
04-16-2012, 06:46 AM
"Only" 15'...? This is 180 inch right ? I guess this is for a 16x9 screen. With an anamorphic lense, could we go a bit furter without loosing too much light ?
By scalable, i guess you mean that light bulb is modular ?

Tim Whitcomb
04-16-2012, 07:27 AM
"Only" 15'...? This is 180 inch right ? I guess this is for a 16x9 screen. With an anamorphic lense, could we go a bit furter without loosing too much light ?
By scalable, i guess you mean that light bulb is modular ?

The starting price projector goes to 15' - not sure who told me last night but you can add more laser pumps as your
Screen size and distance increases... Up to 40K for large venues still about 1/3 the cost of a Christie :p

Just getting started is right ... Awesome party last night thanks guys!

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Still, pity it was not 15 meters. How bright will it be at that distance if I turn down the light?

Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 07:51 AM
You just add Laser boxes to go up in brightness or go up in size... modular.

paulherrin
04-16-2012, 07:55 AM
this is amazing... can i beta test for building projection? :)

brett ogden
04-16-2012, 08:00 AM
Jarred can i Beta Test one of the Projector's :ihih: I could Ready test it to the limit

Aaron Fritz
04-16-2012, 08:03 AM
Hey Jarred what is the Tech Behind the projector. DLP LCOS Scanning. Also would like to know Contrast ratio Etc.

Adrian T.
04-16-2012, 08:09 AM
Hey Jarred what is the Tech Behind the projector. DLP LCOS Scanning.

Neither. It's a laser projector: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_video_projector

AndrewThomas
04-16-2012, 08:19 AM
Neither. It's a laser projector: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_video_projector

I don't think you have much knowledge of projection systems based on your response. Lasers can drive other tech (DLP or LCoS) or can be direct scanning, which is the other fellows question.

Yannick Verry
04-16-2012, 08:22 AM
You just add Laser boxes to go up in brightness or go up in size... modular.
That's really great... When are you doing your world tour with it ? We're really waiting for this projector for our Chinese customers...

Chuck Z
04-16-2012, 08:35 AM
15' is still a nice size in a small grading suite. Hell, it's great for home use too!

Luke Boyce
04-16-2012, 09:04 AM
So is RED hoping to appeal to the new digital cinema initiative that Hollywood is imposing? There have been so many articles as of late about how many small theaters in America are going to close because they can't afford the $100k to upgrade their 35mm prints to DCI-approved DCP projectors? Is this something RED is looking at? Which means I'm asking if RED is going to attempt to get this projector DCI approved? http://www.dcimovies.com/

I'm on the board of directors for a small art theater in Champaign-Urbana called the Art Theater that is transitioning to a co-op and I happen to be on the committee to explore and purchase our new DCP projector before the end of the year. Obviously, Hollywood has strict rules about digital distribution for cinemas, so I'm wondering if RED is planning on approaching this market, or is this projector intended for a different market than that (ie. Home)?

Ryan Nichols
04-16-2012, 09:09 AM
The demo has a PL mount on it and what looks like a 50mm RPP!

Jeremy Torrie
04-16-2012, 09:19 AM
Is anyone floored by the fact we can now view 4K for under 10K? I don't know of any monitors that can do that. This is what I mean by Red bringing 4K to the masses -seeing is believing and people are going to be blown away by this. Absolutely a brilliant move!

Now, how do we encode to an SSD so we can insert the media into said RedRay & Projector?

Steve Johnson
04-16-2012, 09:19 AM
Jarred can i Beta Test one of the Projector's :ihih: I could Ready test it to the limit

++++++1 here

:))

Jeremy Torrie
04-16-2012, 09:27 AM
Yep -us too. Very much would love to get our hands on this, or a beta unit any time -especially as we're heading into onlining my feature Path Of Souls, which is meant to have a 4K release from our distributor! I wasn't expecting them to do this but they said since we shot in 5K it would be silly to release the film in just 2K. Seems like they've made a wise decision!

Antoine Baumann
04-16-2012, 09:29 AM
+1 on the DCI approved? question. I'm personally interested by having this projector for our grading suite, if it does DCI space/gamut. But this could be targeted also to theater sthis would be soooo good for them.
And imagine grading movies on the same projector than the theaters will have .... no more LUT ;-)

Justin Chin
04-16-2012, 09:30 AM
Modular and upgradable. Sweet. Totally on my list to buy.

Michael Mayda
04-16-2012, 09:30 AM
I'll take two. NOW! Wowzwer, 2012 will be a blowout year! Y'all keep me smiling, Red.

Elsie N
04-16-2012, 09:45 AM
You just add Laser boxes to go up in brightness or go up in size... modular.

Even to IMAX?

With 6k cameras coming, will IMAX become the new 1080p?

L. Langer
04-16-2012, 09:59 AM
So is RED hoping to appeal to the new digital cinema initiative that Hollywood is imposing? There have been so many articles as of late about how many small theaters in America are going to close because they can't afford the $100k to upgrade their 35mm prints to DCI-approved DCP projectors? Is this something RED is looking at? Which means I'm asking if RED is going to attempt to get this projector DCI approved? http://www.dcimovies.com/

I'm on the board of directors for a small art theater in Champaign-Urbana called the Art Theater that is transitioning to a co-op and I happen to be on the committee to explore and purchase our new DCP projector before the end of the year. Obviously, Hollywood has strict rules about digital distribution for cinemas, so I'm wondering if RED is planning on approaching this market, or is this projector intended for a different market than that (ie. Home)?

Home/Pro/Theater and yes, to DCI based on what we were told a while back. They are on all fronts. Keep in mind that you also need servers, high-speed networked infrastructure, and whatever digital processors for sound (Dolby or DTS) you prefer. It's not as simple as buying a projector to get a digital cinema up and running.

Luke Boyce
04-16-2012, 10:29 AM
Home/Pro/Theater and yes, to DCI based on what we were told a while back. They are on all fronts. Keep in mind that you also need servers, high-speed networked infrastructure, and whatever digital processors for sound (Dolby or DTS) you prefer. It's not as simple as buying a projector to get a digital cinema up and running.

The theater is already hooked up with the digital sound processors, network and such. It's the projector that we're looking into.

Jonathan McGuire
04-16-2012, 10:51 AM
has anyone got a hold of the 3D glasses yet? are they polarized?

RikiButland
04-16-2012, 11:00 AM
can I pay know, or put a deposit down ?

Petri Teittinen
04-16-2012, 12:07 PM
A couple of questions to people in the know:

1) Does the "under $10K" include optics, i.e. the lens?

2) Since this is passive 3D, I'm assuming a polarization retaining screen is required. Correct?

Jonathan McGuire
04-16-2012, 12:16 PM
A couple of questions to people in the know:

1) Does the "under $10K" include optics, i.e. the lens?

2) Since this is passive 3D, I'm assuming a polarization retaining screen is required. Correct?


2) They could use filters similar to Dolby that aren't polarized and do not require a silver screen, we just need someone to report back on what kind of glasses were handed out at NAB and we will know. Not using polarization will be good news.

NEIL ANDREW BATES
04-16-2012, 12:28 PM
I saw a Twitpic that showed someone wearing oakley 3D glasses. they appear to be these ones
http://uk.oakley.com/innovation/optical-superiority/hdo3d

@ Jonathan McGuire. Would it be a fair guess to say you work in a cinema?

Jesper Sichlau
04-16-2012, 12:45 PM
Let me just say this one thing: This seems great and all, the price is within reach and the technology seems very advanced. But I do have one complain however... I'm going to need a much bigger appartment now :)

paulherrin
04-16-2012, 12:47 PM
It would be super amazing if we could use some kind of alternate power for this thing (redvolts/XL, red bricks...) Maybe add a 1B connection and/or offer a little redvolt module. Perfect for remote venues... or projection art :) Think about it...

https://p.twimg.com/AqkhojgCEAEaamw.jpg:large

Ben Coleman
04-16-2012, 12:53 PM
What are the specs on it for brightness and contrast? I'm curious how this would work as an IMAG projector in the live events world.

Vadim Bobkovsky
04-16-2012, 01:00 PM
Passive glasses - heck yeah
120 FPS in 3D - heck yeah (Douglas Trumbull will love that too)
4K under $10K - obviously

And dare I say it looks like a badass military thing.

Michael Stone
04-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Engadget is lusting over it as well....

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/redray-4k-cinema-laser-hands-on/

Mark Pavy
04-16-2012, 01:22 PM
Love the WARNING message on the back of the Projector (see above link)

Ben Coleman
04-16-2012, 01:32 PM
Engadget is lusting over it as well....

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/redray-4k-cinema-laser-hands-on/

Tell someone out there to kick some stagehand's ass. In picture 14 the truss isn't bolted together correctly on the right. The diagonals should follow the same pattern!

Jonathan McGuire
04-16-2012, 01:41 PM
I saw a Twitpic that showed someone wearing oakley 3D glasses. they appear to be these ones
http://uk.oakley.com/innovation/optical-superiority/hdo3d

@ Jonathan McGuire. Would it be a fair guess to say you work in a cinema?

Ha, I wish and I would like to one day but for now I'm in school at Clemson University. I have read tons about 3D projection, I had 2 BenQ W6000 projectors running passive 3D and have tried polarization and Omega (color spectrum) and the Omega system wins hands down. I sold my dual stack to wait on laser projection. I will honestly be disappointed if this is using polarization, not only will it require a silver screen but polarization is also more prone to ghosting than Omega/Infitec/Dolby. For now though laser 3D may have to be polarized.... here is a quote from the designer of the Omega/Panavision filters that are used in the 200K$ Runco 3D projector stack....

"You are right most lasers work a a single line of spectrum. you would need ten lines to match what were doing. not practical really, but there are ways of getting multiple lines out of some laser setups. there are tunable lasers and some gain mediums that extend the bands. all kinds of ways to make a wider spectrum.
diode lasers are also a possiblity with being tunable and packing many bands. i wasnt thinking of the current offering so much as just the idea of using a dochroic as opposed to polorizers. could be with dolby you would need 6 lines but one would still have the color issues their system has. also if the laser is exciting a phosphore to create the source then all these things would work."

Nikesh Amin
04-16-2012, 02:54 PM
So, is there any idea of when this might be coming? Not an ETA per se, but are we looking at a 3 month time frame or more like December?

Michael Hastings
04-16-2012, 05:52 PM
You just add Laser boxes to go up in brightness or go up in size... modular.

Do the laser boxes pump allthe light thrugh a single lens? I'm guessing that is the case but just to0 confirm.

David Rasberry
04-16-2012, 05:54 PM
Will the Redray projector series be available to AV systems integrators? This projector would kill in 24/7 multi-window command and control environments.

Stivan Widick
04-16-2012, 05:57 PM
I realize this projector is being actively developed so there will be no hard specs for a while, but generally, what is the shortest throw that it can work with? Basically, how small can the room be?

Andrew Gentle
04-16-2012, 06:00 PM
The Verge also has an article about RED (http://www.theverge.com/2012/4/16/2953233/i-see-your-4k-and-raise-you-6k-how-red-is-winning-the-high-res-video) out now.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1063232/_MFC9540-hero.jpg

paulherrin
04-16-2012, 09:24 PM
I realize this projector is being actively developed so there will be no hard specs for a while, but generally, what is the shortest throw that it can work with? Basically, how small can the room be?

depends on what lens you put on it... test it out with your camera :) if you can take an undistorted/focused picture of your screen area... should do fine :)

Jonathan McGuire
04-16-2012, 09:33 PM
So can anyone from NAB tell us if they used a silver screen today? I saw an image of the Oakley glasses so I assume this is polarized 3D but want to make sure

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 09:58 PM
Hmmm... maybe that's why Graeme took my picture at the party after I started talking about astronomy and adaptive optics - sensors and optical elements being moved/adjusted/corrected on a micron scale hundreds of times a second... ;-)

Mike

Eh searching for aliens? Yikes, dont do it ... :)

Stivan Widick
04-16-2012, 10:06 PM
depends on what lens you put on it... test it out with your camera :) if you can take an undistorted/focused picture of your screen area... should do fine :)

I was hoping it would be that simple! Time to lay dastardly plans....

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 10:07 PM
We really are just getting started. Truly.

Ok so we will see 4K Red Cinema Theaters poping everywhere, i4KRedTunes, 4KRedFlix, RedCola, Redburger, RedAirlines, Redbank, ... :ihih:

Adam Michael Carr
04-16-2012, 11:05 PM
I have always looked at 3d as a gimmick. For me, it never made my movie going experience any better, which is the point. I thought I was gonna die after I saw Avatar in the theater because a I had such a massive headache. So this morning at NAB I watched the short film LOOM that red was showcasing......I no longer think 3D is a gimmick and it most definite has a place in this industry. From the first frame of the film, I could tell there was something different going on, something better. My eyes did not struggle to adjust to the difference in depth on each shot. For the first time in my life I TRULY enjoyed a 3D movie experience and it pumps me up! The images were like butter and its going to look even better on Thursday!

Benni Diez
04-16-2012, 11:08 PM
Question: Since it's passive 3D, does it still require an expensive silver screen? Or does the new tech work on standard surfaces?

Anyway... can not wait!!

Corey Culp
04-16-2012, 11:39 PM
This is the best time of the year. For those of us that not only have gear lust, but are also writer/producer/directors, April is a time that sparks imagination and gets the creative juices flowing. (Or flowing at a greater rate if you're already "there.") :)


Question: Since it's passive 3D, does it still require an expensive silver screen? Or does the new tech work on standard surfaces?

Does anyone know yet or can ask at the booth tomorrow?

Peter Chang
04-17-2012, 01:25 AM
Question: Since it's passive 3D, does it still require an expensive silver screen? Or does the new tech work on standard surfaces?


Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.

ERIC PECK
04-17-2012, 03:57 AM
Are you guys taking reservations for the projector at the booth? I was there today, I want one!

By the way, being the cynical that I am, I stopped at the Barco booth, and asked the guy what he thought of the product.

He said... "are they announcing what?... that it will cost what?... that it will do what?.... IMPOSSIBLE!"

Let's not even get down to the fact that the equivalent product from Barco is the size of a refrigerator, so even if we were to buy it, we would have to tear down half the building for it... which clearly won't happen.

Always good to hear the opinion from other "experts" I suppose :smiley:

L. Langer
04-17-2012, 04:42 AM
Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.

Poo. I hope they manage to work around that as we had originally been told. Well, it's exceptionally promising nonetheless.

Elsie N
04-17-2012, 05:02 AM
Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.

But that's only required for showing 3-D... right? Can someone ask if 2-D can be shown on any other screen?

Petri Teittinen
04-17-2012, 05:03 AM
But that's only required for showing 3-D... right?
Yup. No need for a polarization screen for 2D.

Elsie N
04-17-2012, 05:06 AM
Good to know Petri. Thanks.

James Gardiner
04-17-2012, 05:10 AM
Specs on this projector are a bit thin, but it sounds like it would be a great companion to some software I develop for my company at www.digitall.net.au
It sounds like, your projector and our software = 4K playback of a DCP very cost effectively.
Recently we released dcpPlayer Version 2 with SMPTE DCP playback support on Windows based computers. Version 2 support SMPTE-DCP which means all the different frame rates, 24,25,30,48,50,60. As it based on the latest asdcplib, it will, but I have not really tested it, play back HFR (High frame rate) 3D at 48(96fps) and 60(120fps)
I am keen to see if we can get dcpPlayer working with this projector with a full 4K video path. Check out dcpPlayer at our website..

Jim, please contact me when you have time as we may have other opportunities for a projector like this in certain regions of the world.
We will also be going to CinemCon, which I imagine you will also attend.

Also, is it possible to get the official tech specs available at this time. (Or as much technical information you are willing to release at this time) Especially in terms of your position on DCI compliance. Is it the objective?
Would like to make a video for my Cinema technology Video podcast. www.cinetechgeek.com

James

Benni Diez
04-17-2012, 05:19 AM
Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.

thanks for the info! still awesome, and since pretty much every cinema with realD already has one, it should be more than alright for cinemas.

Scott Brown
04-17-2012, 06:15 AM
How big and heavy is this baby?

Anyone at NAB able to help?

Scott

Michel Hafner
04-17-2012, 08:52 AM
Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.
If it does this projector is not for me. I don't want silver or high gain screens. At least it will force the competition to offer laser or LED based alternatives... If it does only for 3D I have to think about a flexible screen solution. Silver for 3D only might be acceptable to me.

Jarred Land
04-17-2012, 09:09 AM
You only need a silver screen for front projected 3D... If you only plan on using our Laser projector for 2D.. a white screen is fine.

And remember.. since we are shooting 24 foot lamberts you don't need it to be high gain. A higher gain screen improves the effects of polarization but also gets into all sorts of other issues like hotspots etc.

You guys that saw it yesterday should come see it again today.. we made some substantial improvements late in the wee hours today :)

Peter Karlsson
04-17-2012, 09:14 AM
Can you give any specific recommendation for a prefect screen gain/type/brand?! We're looking into building a new color correction room based on the projector, so we want everything to be perfect once you release it :)

Jarred Land
04-17-2012, 09:33 AM
Can you give any specific recommendation for a prefect screen gain/type/brand?! We're looking into building a new color correction room based on the projector, so we want everything to be perfect once you release it :)

I would wait on that one ;)

Alex Kiritz
04-17-2012, 10:25 AM
So how's this going to work? Seems like at most you could just sell Red branded high quality screens at a much lower price similar to how the current lenses are sold. I'd imagine cost cutting on a piece of fabric is a lot easier than with a brand new projector.

Jonathan McGuire
04-17-2012, 10:28 AM
I would wait on that one ;)

Jarred, is there any possibility of using spectral filters in the future since the laser source looks to be external? I know lasers can have problems with these type of filters since most work on a single line of spectrum, but there seems to be ways to make this work. The guy who designs the filters for Omega 3D that Runco uses said he would be happy to work with RED to make custom dichroic filter system. Even if this meant purchasing two laser engines I would be all for it!

L. Langer
04-17-2012, 10:30 AM
I would wait on that one ;)

You're only allowed to say "heh heh heh". :ihih:

Michael Kobb
04-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Yes, I was told that it requires a silver screen and that the one used in the demo is a Stewart screen with 2.0 gain.

Well, I have to say, that's terribly disappointing. Although I really congratulate Red for the achievement that this projector represents, I'm afraid it just went from the top of my list to the "not an option" list.

It may be that there was no better option for passive 3D with a laser light source, but silver screens are really a problem in home theater applications, where their performance for 2D material doesn't compare very well with a white screen. So, if I wanted to use this projector in my home theater, I would have to install a second, silver screen that could drop instead of my white screen, and either ensure that the projector's focus was broad enough to cover both screens, or manually refocus the projector when using 3D. And, I would have to change the equalization of my center channel speaker depending upon which screen was down, since my primary screen is a woven screen, and the only options I'm aware of that retain polarization are vinyl screens with perforations, which require very different EQ.

Plus that's now a substantial extra expense that really hurts the projector's price point. Even if somebody is willing to change screens, you've added thousands of dollars to the cost for anybody wanting to install your projector in an existing theater.

I've seen the Stewart screen you were using (elsewhere, not at NAB), and I didn't like it at all.

I would encourage the folks from Red to take two things into consideration when bringing this machine to the home theater space:
Do whatever it takes to make the projector quiet. It looks from the photos as if your light source is in the offboard box. If that's true, that should be a big help, because that heat source and its cooling fan can be placed in a remote location. I'd suggest that you go pick up a Sony VPL-VW95ES. It's extremely quiet even though its light source is internal. You should be able to beat the sound levels from that projector with your external light source. Many home theaters can't install a projection booth or a "hush box", and at your price range, you're targeting home theaters that don't want that level of complexity. If your machine is noisier than other options, you will lose sales. I passed up a much more expensive projector with a stellar image because it was too noisy for my theater.
Consider also supporting active 3D with shutter glasses, for those users who will not be able to use a silver screen. If you can really do 120Hz passive 3D with 120Hz to both eyes, you should be able to do really really good active 3D. This could make the projector into a superb option for those of us for whom 3D is not the main focus, but who do want to be able to do the occasional 3D screening.

Espen Jensen
04-17-2012, 12:14 PM
So what is the chance of RED making an appearance at Infocomm? I know it's not NAB, but it would be my only chance to see it live! Besides.. it would be nice for people in the installed AV industry to be able to compare this to the Sony/Christie/BARCO/DP equipment on site.

Tommy Kristensen
04-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Will the projector come as a "complete package" - ready to use - REDray projector, Lens, REDplayer etc. - everything but the screen? Or would you have to add some stuff?

James Kirst
04-17-2012, 12:30 PM
You only need a silver screen for front projected 3D... If you only plan on using our Laser projector for 2D.. a white screen is fine.

And remember.. since we are shooting 24 foot lamberts you don't need it to be high gain. A higher gain screen improves the effects of polarization but also gets into all sorts of other issues like hotspots etc.

You guys that saw it yesterday should come see it again today.. we made some substantial improvements late in the wee hours today :)


You guys are so close to WORLD DOMINATION!!! :-)

paulherrin
04-17-2012, 01:23 PM
Well, I have to say, that's terribly disappointing. Although I really congratulate Red for the achievement that this projector represents, I'm afraid it just went from the top of my list to the "not an option" list.

It may be that there was no better option for passive 3D with a laser light source, but silver screens are really a problem in home theater applications, where their performance for 2D material doesn't compare very well with a white screen. So, if I wanted to use this projector in my home theater, I would have to install a second, silver screen that could drop instead of my white screen, and either ensure that the projector's focus was broad enough to cover both screens, or manually refocus the projector when using 3D. And, I would have to change the equalization of my center channel speaker depending upon which screen was down, since my primary screen is a woven screen, and the only options I'm aware of that retain polarization are vinyl screens with perforations, which require very different EQ.

Plus that's now a substantial extra expense that really hurts the projector's price point. Even if somebody is willing to change screens, you've added thousands of dollars to the cost for anybody wanting to install your projector in an existing theater.

I've seen the Stewart screen you were using (elsewhere, not at NAB), and I didn't like it at all.

I would encourage the folks from Red to take two things into consideration when bringing this machine to the home theater space:
Do whatever it takes to make the projector quiet. It looks from the photos as if your light source is in the offboard box. If that's true, that should be a big help, because that heat source and its cooling fan can be placed in a remote location. I'd suggest that you go pick up a Sony VPL-VW95ES. It's extremely quiet even though its light source is internal. You should be able to beat the sound levels from that projector with your external light source. Many home theaters can't install a projection booth or a "hush box", and at your price range, you're targeting home theaters that don't want that level of complexity. If your machine is noisier than other options, you will lose sales. I passed up a much more expensive projector with a stellar image because it was too noisy for my theater.
Consider also supporting active 3D with shutter glasses, for those users who will not be able to use a silver screen. If you can really do 120Hz passive 3D with 120Hz to both eyes, you should be able to do really really good active 3D. This could make the projector into a superb option for those of us for whom 3D is not the main focus, but who do want to be able to do the occasional 3D screening.


install silver, drop white. set focus marks if it's going soft. do you really have another option for something more affordable at this level of performance? are there any other projectors in existence with this level of performance? what's the real problem?

Jonathan McGuire
04-17-2012, 01:35 PM
install silver, drop white. set focus marks if it's going soft. do you really have another option for something more affordable at this level of performance? are there any other projectors in existence with this level of performance? what's the real problem?

The problem is spectral 3D is better than polarized, better extinction and no need for a silver screen. This may be something that could not be done under 10k with lasers or may have cut brightness too much. If the native CR on this projector ends up on par with JVC HT projectors then this is still a major home run, I just would have liked to seen them go with a different 3D tech.

Michael Kobb
04-17-2012, 01:47 PM
install silver, drop white. set focus marks if it's going soft. do you really have another option for something more affordable at this level of performance? are there any other projectors in existence with this level of performance? what's the real problem?
The problem is that in my installation, I am already using a motorized screen. A screen that, by the way, cost about as much as this projector. I doubt that I have enough room in the soffit for a second motorized screen. This is a home, not a commercial venue. The existing screen is motorized because it drops in front of a bookcase (which also happens to contain the center speaker) so that the room isn't dominated by a giant screen when it's being used for 2-channel listening or reading or whatever. So, a fixed screen with a second motorized screen that drops in front is not an option.

As well, the current screen uses a masking system. For good masking performance, the masks need to be as close to the screen surface as possible. With two screens, one screen will suffer.

The entire theater is automated. Shades, lighting, screen drop, screen masking. Aspect ratio adjustments are automatic depending upon cues from the movie server. So, to this fully automated theater, I need to add a step to get up and walk over to the projector and tweak the focus ring depending upon type of content? With infrequent 3D viewing, that really honestly probably fine for me since my projector location is easy to access. It'd be a problem in some installations though (perhaps it's built into a soffit, for example, as several folks I know have theirs).

I'm not saying that there are better options at this price point. There aren't. The only 4K alternative I'm aware of that's even remotely close is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES, which is $24,999 MSRP, can't do 4K at anything more than 24p, and is not as bright.

So, like I said, I really congratulate Red on what sounds like an amazing and groundbreaking product, but it's really unfortunate that it requires a special screen. This may seem like a non-issue to people who really don't do much home theater, but if you take a stroll over to some of the home theater forums, there's growing disappointment because this requirement rules the projector out for a lot of people.

As I suggested above, Red could remove this objection by offering an option to use active glasses. That opens up all other screen surfaces and allows people who have a big investment in their existing rooms to exchange the projector without an expensive and disruptive replacement of the screen.

[Edit: Plus what Jonathan said. :smiley:]

Michel Hafner
04-17-2012, 02:41 PM
As I suggested above, Red could remove this objection by offering an option to use active glasses. That opens up all other screen surfaces and allows people who have a big investment in their existing rooms to exchange the projector without an expensive and disruptive replacement of the screen.
[Edit: Plus what Jonathan said. :smiley:]

I'm all for that as well. Either active variant or passive that works with regular non polarity preserving screens. I have a woven accoustically transparent screen and won't replace it with a silver screen with holes in it. A second screen does not fit in well and would not be masked. So either it's no Red projector or 2 projectors, one for 2D (possibly the RED) and one for 3D (not the RED with current options). I'd much prefer one projector to two, though.

paulherrin
04-17-2012, 02:55 PM
everybody already knew it was going to be a passive system... i stand by that decision.

Michael Kobb
04-17-2012, 02:59 PM
You are arguing that you approve of the approach Red has taken. Some of the rest of us are pointing out that the approach doesn't work for us, and offering constructive suggestions for things that Red could do to make the product more broadly successful.

Jonathan McGuire
04-17-2012, 03:36 PM
everybody already knew it was going to be a passive system... i stand by that decision.

Yes they did, and passive with simultaneous L/R 3D is amazing, but use spectral 3D instead of polarization and you have the perfect system that doesn't require anyone to change their screen. I don't think anyone is bashing RED, but there are those of us joining the community from AVSforum that are very picky about our home theater projectors. It seems like RED has a real winner here with an amazing price, hopefully in the future we will see them offer Omega spectral 3D filters as an option.

paulherrin
04-17-2012, 08:35 PM
sorry for being a bit snarky. i'm sure they're listening, you guys bring up some good points. i just don't think you need to feel let down simply because you may have added expenses for screen installation... seems pretty well worthy of compromise to me.

i don't know much about spectral 3d, anyone care to elaborate in detail?

Greg M
04-17-2012, 08:45 PM
Yes they did, and passive with simultaneous L/R 3D is amazing, but use spectral 3D instead of polarization and you have the perfect system that doesn't require anyone to change their screen. I don't think anyone is bashing RED, but there are those of us joining the community from AVSforum that are very picky about our home theater projectors. It seems like RED has a real winner here with an amazing price, hopefully in the future we will see them offer Omega spectral 3D filters as an option.

All valid points, as screens can cost as much as some projectors. The good news is Red listens, so hopefully its not too late to consider all options to make REDRay Projector even better.

Les Dittert
04-17-2012, 09:07 PM
Hard (impossible) to get monochrome laser light sources to work with Omega spectral 3D filters, as there is only one frequency of light for each color.
just sayin.

Jonathan McGuire
04-17-2012, 09:15 PM
sorry for being a bit snarky. i'm sure they're listening, you guys bring up some good points. i just don't think you need to feel let down simply because you may have added expenses for screen installation... seems pretty well worthy of compromise to me.

i don't know much about spectral 3d, anyone care to elaborate in detail?

Dolby and Panavision use spectral filters in their 3D projection, the filters are developed by Infitec and Omega. "The filters transmit narrows bands of red, green, and blue for the left eye, and slightly different bands of red, green, and blue for the right eye. A discerning eye might notice a very slight difference in color between the two images, but the brain doesn't care, easily integrating the two into natural color." That quote came from an article that I will link to if you wish to read more. The great thing about spectral 3D is that it doesn't require a silver screen and eliminates ghosting (or is at least that best solution for dealing with it). The downside is that the glasses are reflecting the image that is not meant to be seen by each eye, and if you have ambient light in your theater you may notice the reflections on the lens, you can see what I mean in the picture below. Lasers may make it hard to use these filters since they usually operate on a single line of spectrum, but the designer of the Omega filters has stated on avsforum that it can be done. Don't get me wrong though, I love what RED is doing and simultaneous L/R 3D is more important to me that the fact they are using polarization. If they have a screen in the works than can eliminate ghosting and still look good in 2D then I will be ecstatic. I even have a pair of oakley 3D glasses left from when I used polarization with a dual projection polarized setup.

http://krisabel.ctv.ca/image.axd?picture=2009%2F9%2Fhole1.jpg

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/14/stereo2.htm

Jonathan McGuire
04-17-2012, 09:27 PM
Hard (impossible) to get monochrome laser light sources to work with Omega spectral 3D filters, as there is only one frequency of light for each color.
just sayin.

Thats what I have been hearing, and I believe you 100%, but the designer of the Omega filters has posted on avs some opinions on how it can be done. "You are right most lasers work a a single line of spectrum. you would need ten lines to match what were doing. not practical really, but there are ways of getting multiple lines out of some laser setups. there are tunable lasers and some gain mediums that extend the bands. all kinds of ways to make a wider spectrum. diode lasers are also a possiblity with being tunable and packing many bands. i wasnt thinking of the current offering so much as just the idea of using a dochroic as opposed to polorizers. could be with dolby you would need 6 lines but one would still have the color issues their system has. also if the laser is exciting a phosphore to create the source then all these things would work."

would it also be possible to combine two laser light engines that each work on a different line of spectrum? I know that would drive the price up but I'm curious if that is a solution?

paulherrin
04-17-2012, 09:37 PM
found this from jarred:


You only need a silver screen for front projected 3D... If you only plan on using our Laser projector for 2D.. a white screen is fine.

And remember.. since we are shooting 24 foot lamberts you don't need it to be high gain. A higher gain screen improves the effects of polarization but also gets into all sorts of other issues like hotspots etc.

You guys that saw it yesterday should come see it again today.. we made some substantial improvements late in the wee hours today :)

isn't that the main issues with polarization?

Les Dittert
04-17-2012, 09:39 PM
The silver screen I saw today at Red's demo booth had no hot spot, and didn't even look like a silver screen, for that matter. I was more concerned by the raised blacks and my right eye was greener than the left, but this color shift may have been the glasses quality. I'm guessing that it's using lcos to modulate, with laser as a light source only.
it's all prelim, so no worries.
The presentation was 2k simultaneous to each eye, they said they may have 4k in the next day.
It was very watchable, I must add.

Michael Kobb
04-17-2012, 10:02 PM
The best 3D I've ever seen was at CES this year, on LG's OLED flat screen. Similar to the Red projector, it uses polarization and shows simultaneous left eye/right eye images. It was spectacular, even though the horizontal resolution is halved to each eye for 3D, which wouldn't be the case with the Red.

So, I'm a big, big fan of simultaneous left/right 3D. Something like the Dolby/Panavision stuff that has been discussed just above has the potential to be just amazing, and I wish that it was the solution out of the gate for this machine, but it's not. I'm not saying that Red made the wrong decision here -- just saying that the solution they have used really won't work for me at this time.

Unfortunately, since I just bought a (fully custom) screen that's worth about the cost of this projector, I will not be replacing it anytime soon. I realize that the polarization is only an issue for 3D, and it's true that 3D is not a major focus for me. I own a total of 4 3D Blu-ray discs, in fact, with plans to buy a fifth. But, it'd sure be nice to be able to watch those in 3D if I feel like it.

Another option, of course, is to simply buy an inexpensive DLP that does great active 3D and unremarkable 2D. I would use this second projector only for 3D, leaving the Red to handle 2D on my regular screen. This solution would cost substantially less than adding/replacing a screen like mine, and it's a solution that a number of home theater owners have used, because the category-leading 2D projectors in the $10k and under category (JVC, Sony) have until this year had stellar 2D and less-than-stellar 3D. (This year, a couple of the sub-$10k projectors are pretty darned good at both...)

However, it seems to me that one of the big kick-ass features of the Red projector is the simultaneous, 120Hz 3D. In the absence of widespread 4K content, I don't think you're gaining a lot from the 4K resolution, so the awesome 3D is one of the big features, and without it, the case for the Red becomes less compelling.

There's still a lot of appeal. I would expect the Red to have extremely rich, saturated color (which typical Blu-ray content can't take full advantage of, but perhaps RedRay will), hopefully instant-on and care-free operation like LED-based projectors have, and which conventional UHP-lamped projectors emphatically lack. It also has the potential to be very quiet.

So, it will still be extremely interesting to see how this machine performs when it ships, but I will not be waiting for it. The first projector going into my new theater will be something else. :(

paulherrin
04-17-2012, 10:07 PM
Dolby and Panavision use spectral filters in their 3D projection, the filters are developed by Infitec and Omega. "The filters transmit narrows bands of red, green, and blue for the left eye, and slightly different bands of red, green, and blue for the right eye. A discerning eye might notice a very slight difference in color between the two images, but the brain doesn't care, easily integrating the two into natural color." That quote came from an article that I will link to if you wish to read more. The great thing about spectral 3D is that it doesn't require a silver screen and eliminates ghosting (or is at least that best solution for dealing with it). The downside is that the glasses are reflecting the image that is not meant to be seen by each eye, and if you have ambient light in your theater you may notice the reflections on the lens, you can see what I mean in the picture below. Lasers may make it hard to use these filters since they usually operate on a single line of spectrum, but the designer of the Omega filters has stated on avsforum that it can be done. Don't get me wrong though, I love what RED is doing and simultaneous L/R 3D is more important to me that the fact they are using polarization. If they have a screen in the works than can eliminate ghosting and still look good in 2D then I will be ecstatic. I even have a pair of oakley 3D glasses left from when I used polarization with a dual projection polarized setup.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/14/stereo2.htm

cool, thanks for the detailed explanation :)

Petri Teittinen
04-18-2012, 01:36 AM
I've been tooling around with a RealD-ish modulation filter which basically converts an active 3D projector into a passive one. Unlike RealD's modulators, this one is aimed at and priced for consumers, and works with any active 3D projector which has a VESA-3D connector for external sync. I've tested it with a couple of Optoma projectors on a Harkness Spectral 240 3D silver screen, and the results look very good. Sure there's crosstalk, but no more than on my JVC X70 active 3D projector.

While RED's projector is 4K and has those friggin' lasers, I'm also very keen to see what its simultaneous L/R looks like. RealD and this consumer version are both non-simultaneous, after all.

Steven Caesare
04-18-2012, 11:03 AM
For anybody who has already attended today, have they mentioned if the projector is now running at 4K?

-sc

Samuel Burton
04-18-2012, 01:55 PM
I'm very interested as to wether this will suit an IMAG situation for live shows, what kind of gear I would need to project graphic content direct from a computer, and most importantly, cost of ownership. Lamp life, display engine life, replacement costs etc.

Jason DeSimone
04-18-2012, 02:41 PM
For anybody who has already attended today, have they mentioned if the projector is now running at 4K?

-sc

Still running 2K

Gabriele Turchi
04-18-2012, 11:26 PM
You guys that saw it yesterday should come see it again today.. we made some substantial improvements late in the wee hours today :)

But this morning i am been told by ted that the projector has not been changed/updated since monday ...

Jarred Land
04-18-2012, 11:28 PM
But this morning i am been told by ted that the projector has not been changed/updated since monday ...

yup.. same thing i said. I said yesterday yesterday..

Paul Nordin
04-19-2012, 12:19 AM
yup.. same thing i said. I said yesterday yesterday..

I just got back home tonight so seeing it again is not possible. That said, what I saw yesterday morning was, without question, the best 3D presentation I have ever seen, bar none. Zero heachach/eye strain. It just looked sharp and awesome. And when the few artifacts that remain are removed + 4K...wow.

Zack CC
04-19-2012, 01:07 AM
I saw the projection demo at some point within the past few days, although the whole show has been a blur. (a lot of fun!)

I still dont know where I come down on it, because its very difficult for me to walk into a dark room without any reference, see an image, and evaluate it. However, I would say as a new technology demo it went exceedingly well. The whole movie showed without any hiccups, (that alone, for an alpha/beta demo was impressive) and for whatever reason, even without a direct reference, I got the impression that for 3D projection, it was quite bright, which was really pleasing. The colors also felt very vivid, and I already didn't really mind looking at a 2K 8bit image.

That being said, I've been particularly skeptical / gun shy as of late as far as lasers are concerned. I had a bit of a run in with a Wicked Lasers Spyder Arctic 3 recently and after a few days of freaking out about viewing that lasers output without protective gear, I was ok, but definitely have a new respect for the power of lasers... I know that obviously the product / technology is safe or else RED wouldn't be investing in it... But I guess just for personal knowledge, I dont understand the technology enough to know why it is safe, and that would probably allay my fears / misgivings in this regard.

Aside from that, I did experience a weird disconnect. I couldn't be sure that the 3D effect was working for me, unfortunately. I found myself constantly raising my glasses a bit so I could see the screen without them on, just to see that it wasn't a 2D image. I dont normally have any problem in 3D movies, so I dont know if this was a matter of not having any eye strain (and so I was just viewing 3D effortlessly, and so couldn't feel the normal strain of 3D, or if my brain was acting up, or if there was something else going on.) However, then the shot where he looks into the microscope popped up, and the 3D effect was startling, (in a good way) and the vividness and brightness of the color was evident, and really astounding.

Im really interested to learn more about the actual core functionality and safety of the technology since it certainly sounds like a solid advancement from all that I've been hearing, and I would highly recommend seeing the demo. Lots of impressive stuff, it certainly was one of the most unique technologies i've had the pleasure to see so far at the show, and it had, from what I could tell, a demo free of technical malfunctions, which is really amazing in and of itself for a tech demo!!

Overall, Really cool work I'm excited to see more, and would love any resources that anyone could recommend for learning about approaches and regulations for this kind of stuff!

Tony Lorentzen
04-19-2012, 01:48 AM
Jarred - will the (very subtle) "rainbow effect" disappear on the production model too? Will definitely be in thursday morning to see 'Loom' again on the updated projector.

Jarred Land
04-19-2012, 02:02 AM
Jarred - will the (very subtle) "rainbow effect" disappear on the production model too? Will definitely be in thursday morning to see 'Loom' again on the updated projector.

yup its all alignment of polarization.. and ironically the easy stuff to fix if we had just a few more days. Nothing to see new tomorrow..

Tony Lorentzen
04-19-2012, 02:12 AM
yup its all alignment of polarization.. and ironically the easy stuff to fix if we had just a few more days. Nothing to see new tomorrow..

Gotcha - I expected that to be an alignment issue. The presentation I saw was 2K 8bit with a bit of "ghosting" - are you saying that it's still not 4K, 12-bit?

Jarred Land
04-19-2012, 02:48 AM
no 4K, 12 bit yet... the team is still awake.. but with thursday being a half day even if it fired up in the next couple hours.. there wouldn't be time to put it in the booth and realign everything before the show ended.

Tony Lorentzen
04-19-2012, 03:10 AM
I understand. I'm just totally psyched to see this thing all working. What I saw the other day was just plain amazing. Can't believe this baby can be mine for less than $10K. You guys rock.

Jarred Land
04-19-2012, 03:35 AM
I understand. I'm just totally psyched to see this thing all working. What I saw the other day was just plain amazing. Can't believe this baby can be mine for less than $10K. You guys rock.

Don't worry.. there will be plenty of opportunities popping up soon for you to see the projector in all it's glory soon :)

Ketch Rossi
04-19-2012, 03:55 AM
no 4K, 12 bit yet... the team is still awake.. but with thursday being a half day even if it fired up in the next couple hours.. there wouldn't be time to put it in the booth and realign everything before the show ended.


OH, that is really too bad!!

I have been waiting to see LOOM cause I really wanted to see in all its 4k glory... ;)

I guess I'll see it either on my next trip to RED STUDIOS HOLLYWOOD or if you guys start your Global tour first and come in one of the countries I'll gladly assist you set up the event on... ;)


I'm also sorry for your guys that didn't happen, I know you must be really bombed out.

Tony Lorentzen
04-19-2012, 03:58 AM
Don't worry.. there will be plenty of opportunities popping up soon for you to see the projector in all it's glory soon :)

You mean you'll send one to Denmark for me to beta test? ;-)

Gary Jones
04-19-2012, 04:56 AM
You guys need to take this to IBC in September. Give the rest of us a chance to see it and you will get a chance to show it off in glorious 4K.

Carsten Kurz
04-19-2012, 05:21 AM
Im really interested to learn more about the actual core functionality and safety of the technology since it certainly sounds like a solid advancement from all that I've been hearing, and I would highly recommend seeing the demo.



Zack,

there is certainly more to say about safety and regulations, but for now: A classic Xenon or UHP lamp can harm your eyes just the same way as certain laser light sources can. There are all sorts of strange and psychological misconceptions about lasers, but it still is only ONE very specific incarnation of light. Because of their very high coherence, laser light sources can have an extremely high local energy density. But this means at the same time - the moment you add divergence, that means, spread the light through a lens, you lose that harmful energy density. Some laser projection techniques use(d) deflecting mirrors with undiverged laser beams, in a similar way as show lasers. However, in order to project an image onto a screen, the beam has to be scanned over the screen estate with a very high frequency - and with short time exposure, your eyes are safe again, because harming is caused by energy density + time.

Now, even this all only is of concern if you actually look INTO the light beam(s) coming from your projector. The normal use for this kind of gear is to watch the laser light being reflected of a screen. This again reduces local energy density at your eyes to an extent, that noway your eyes can be harmed even when watching it for days.

When watching traditional laser light sources like laser-pointers, etc., people very often associate the typical 'speckle' as some sort of weird and potentially harmful indication of this special and dangerous kind of light. But speckle has nothing to do with harmful energy, but coherence. Even very low power laser light sources show speckle.

Laser projection systems fall under current regulation schemes. But not because they are harmful, they just don't fit into the application scheme of public laser applications like show lasers. The current regulation schemes are simply missing this specific part of laser applications.

The light output of a traditional 2-7kW cinema projector xenon bulb can blind you in a fraction of a second. It's just that no one sees a need for regulation there, because in a typical cinema environment, patrons are never exposed to the light in such a way that it injures them. This way of dealing needs to be applied to the laser regulation schemes for laser displays as well. It just takes some time for the regulatory bodies to respond.


- Carsten

Stuart English
04-19-2012, 06:27 AM
I'm very interested as to wether this will suit an IMAG situation for live shows, what kind of gear I would need to project graphic content direct from a computer, and most importantly, cost of ownership. Lamp life, display engine life, replacement costs etc.

More specific details on how to do that later, but yes that's certainly a good application for the system.

Stuart English
04-19-2012, 06:31 AM
The silver screen I saw today at Red's demo booth had no hot spot, and didn't even look like a silver screen, for that matter.

The specific screen material we used was Stewart 5D, which is a relatively new product that aims to satisfy both 2D and 3D usage.

It also has a lower gain than typical commercially deployed silver screens - such as Stewart 3D - which makes the brightness of the 3D images even more impressive.

Michael Stone
04-19-2012, 06:43 AM
Any data available on the noise level of the projector when running? (Fans, etc?)

For those that saw it in person - was it just sitting in the room with you with no noticeable noise? Or was it walled/boxed off?

I'm trying to figure out if I can just ceiling-mount it, or if it will need a "projection box" for noise reduction.

Wayne Morellini
04-19-2012, 06:46 AM
You guys need to take this to IBC in September. Give the rest of us a chance to see it and you will get a chance to show it off in glorious 4K.

You guys really need to bring it to my living room, next month :-)

Wayne Morellini
04-19-2012, 06:49 AM
You just add Laser boxes to go up in brightness or go up in size... modular.

Thanks Jarred but not really what I was getting at. In perfect darkness I don't need as much brightness for vector graphic laser displays. So, with some xalculatiins I should be able to est I ate the effect for a size. So, what is the lux of this thing?

Stuart English
04-19-2012, 07:06 AM
Any data available on the noise level of the projector when running? (Fans, etc?)

I'm trying to figure out if I can just ceiling-mount it, or if it will need a "projection box" for noise reduction.

This question highlights one of the major advantages of the modular design we applied to the projector.

Traditional designs place the lamp in the projector head, it gets hot, and hence you need to put substantial cooling (fans) there too.

In our modular design, the "lamp" is in a rack mount chassis that can be located a considerable distance from the optical head.


So no "projection box" needed.

roryhinds
04-19-2012, 08:04 AM
The specific screen material we used was Stewart 5D, which is a relatively new product that aims to satisfy both 2D and 3D usage.

It also has a lower gain than typical commercially deployed silver screens - such as Stewart 3D - which makes the brightness of the 3D images even more impressive.

Aren't those screens (Stewart Silver 5D) like $20k for a 10 foot wide version?
That would mean the screen costs more than the projector.

brett ogden
04-19-2012, 10:49 AM
You mean you'll send one to Denmark for me to beta test? ;-)

Tony I asked First to beta Test :ihih:

Alex Kiritz
04-19-2012, 11:07 AM
Aren't those screens (Stewart Silver 5D) like $20k for a 10 foot wide version?
That would mean the screen costs more than the projector.

Don't worry. Jarred implied in another post that they'll be making a screen too.

roryhinds
04-19-2012, 11:28 AM
that is great news. I can't wait to learn more about the system.

Jonathan McGuire
04-19-2012, 11:50 AM
How much of a drop off in brightness is there when the projector is displaying 3D?

Matthias Martin
04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
So is RED hoping to appeal to the new digital cinema initiative that Hollywood is imposing? There have been so many articles as of late about how many small theaters in America are going to close because they can't afford the $100k to upgrade their 35mm prints to DCI-approved DCP projectors? Is this something RED is looking at?

This projector will be a part of a solution to the arthouse cinema crisis at hand. But there needs to be another element. I would love to see RED enabling Film archives to cost effectively transfer valuable but obscure films to redray 4k. Maybe them recycled Mysterium sensors could find a new home in a relatively low priced RED wetgate film-"scanner". Although I'm well aware that proper transfers like that need a fair amount of handholding and are therefore not so cheap.
Yikes just checked prices for arriscan, definitely an area where "pulling a RED" would be welcome.

brett ogden
04-19-2012, 10:54 PM
Jarred will the Projector Beable to be Shoot from the rear???

Zack CC
04-20-2012, 01:27 AM
Zack,

...There are all sorts of strange and psychological misconceptions about lasers, but it still is only ONE very specific incarnation of light. Because of their very high coherence, laser light sources can have an extremely high local energy density. But this means at the same time - the moment you add divergence, that means, spread the light through a lens, you lose that harmful energy density.


Carsten, thanks for the quick explanation! Any technical papers or sites you could recommend for more in depth reading/understanding? I've done some searches myself and learned a bit, but I'm also interested in really digging in now. Pretty exciting stuff! :D

Ross Isaacs
04-20-2012, 01:32 AM
Does the 3D version require to units to project left and right eye images?

Marcus Struzina
04-21-2012, 02:23 AM
Sorry if I've missed this earlier in the thread but can anyone explain why this projector needs no calibration?
Also has it been revealed what colour spaces it will work in?

Frank Cueto
04-21-2012, 02:34 PM
Both questions have, sa far, been left un-answered.

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 08:11 AM
Sorry if I've missed this earlier in the thread but can anyone explain why this projector needs no calibration? Also has it been revealed what colour spaces it will work in?

Sure, in summary -

Lasers provide the projector a very stable light intensity per primary color.

i.e. it allows us to auto calibrate.



At NAB we were displaying a movie graded for P3 and a some clips graded for REC709.

i.e it's native color gamut is wider than either of those.

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 08:19 AM
Does the 3D version require to units to project left and right eye images?

There is no "3D version" - every the REDprojector is natively stereoscopic.

You just need to add a silver screen and passive glasses for 3D.

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 08:28 AM
How much of a drop off in brightness is there when the projector is displaying 3D?

Restated: how much lower is the brightness (as measured) and how much lower is the brightness (as perceived).


- What we showed was twice as bright as reported levels commonly available for commercially deployed systems.

- The 3D glasses do cut the light intensity. But the eye / brain is a very adaptable, and we display both eye data.

So quickly moving your glasses in and out of the line of sight there was very little noticeable brightness drop off.


With the REDprojector, it's no longer a dim and muddy and headache inducing experience watching 3D...

Tim Morten
04-22-2012, 10:03 AM
Any restrictions on screen? Would a Stewart Grayhawk work?

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 11:08 AM
Any restrictions on screen? Would a Stewart Grayhawk work?

Haven't tested that one TBH, but for 2D use probably just fine...

...obviously for 3D use you need a polarization maintaining screen, such as a Stewart 3D or 5D or equivalent.

Petr Dvorak
04-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Somebody in Loom thread mentioned theat Red projector works in 8 bit color space. Will be possible to made projector which show 10 or more bits?

Elliott S Frank
04-22-2012, 01:01 PM
Somebody in Loom thread mentioned theat Red projector works in 8 bit color space. Will be possible to made projector which show 10 or more bits?

They showed Loom in 2k/8-bit because that was what was working when they opened the show Monday at NAB. Jim promised that if they got 10-bit working before the show closed, they would show Loom in 10-bit.

Frank Cueto
04-22-2012, 01:35 PM
It woud be nice if the projector had the option to display either full-range or legal range.

Will the projector automatically shoot out 16FtL or will we need a meter to dial it in?

Petr Dvorak
04-22-2012, 01:38 PM
They showed Loom in 2k/8-bit because that was what was working when they opened the show Monday at NAB. Jim promised that if they got 10-bit working before the show closed, they would show Loom in 10-bit.

Yihaa! :)

Stacey Spears
04-22-2012, 01:50 PM
I was in the first showing on Monday morning. Based on what I saw, it looks like it is LCOS based. Hopefully the final unit has better uniformity. When a black field was show, you could see patches of red. Most LCOS displays suffer from shading issues like this.

I thought the use of a prime lens was clever. The RPPs have great optics. The issue with the RPP is the IRIS is sub-optimal for a display device. My IRIS comment applies to all camera lenses. After a lot of research, the cat eye shaped IRIS has proven to be superior in terms of contrast ratio and black level. Hopefully the final product improves the black level. On some display technology, the use of a dual IRIS improves contrast even further. Sharp prefected this approach. By using a combination of cats eye shaped lamp, and lens, IRIS they were able to increase its static contrast ratio by 4X with only a 1/3 reduction in light output. Its important that the lamp and lens IRIS are correctly matched. DLPs benefit the most because of the high light scatter. In testing, LCOS gets about a 2x gain in contrast ratio with only 1/3 reduction in light output.

Different screen material, such as the Stewart Grayhawk, are tinted. Unless the display has a built in colorimeter, you will need to calibrate the grayscale based on the screen material. Black level / brightness is also a perceptual control. This needs to be adjusted based on lighting condition, etc...

Is it pure laser source or hybrid laser/LED based? I ask based on the rainbows I saw during the credits.

Jim mentioned that they were showing 8-bit 2k per eye and hoped to have 10-bit 4k working on Wednesday. He mentioned they still had ghost busting to do and more de-speckling.

Marcus Struzina
04-22-2012, 01:51 PM
Sure, in summary -

Lasers provide the projector a very stable light intensity per primary color.

i.e. it allows us to auto calibrate.



At NAB we were displaying a movie graded for P3 and a some clips graded for REC709.

i.e it's native color gamut is wider than either of those.


Thanks Stuart, Pretty amazing all round. I can see this changing the post budgets on a lot of independent productions.

Michel Hafner
04-23-2012, 12:09 AM
This projector needs to achieve JVC contrast and blacks for me since I'm a black 'fanatic'. Actually I hoped it would be a scanning solution with zero light for black. The first projector to make credits look like letters are floating in a black hole with no support whatsoever. That seems to be as elusive as ever, though. If contrast remains low I'll have to wait for it to improve before I could use this projector. I want something like 100000:1 and better.

Stuart English
04-23-2012, 09:48 AM
This projector needs to achieve JVC contrast and blacks for me since I'm a black 'fanatic'. Actually I hoped it would be a scanning solution with zero light for black. The first projector to make credits look like letters are floating in a black hole with no support whatsoever. That seems to be as elusive as ever, though. If contrast remains low I'll have to wait for it to improve before I could use this projector. I want something like 100000:1 and better.

Contrast will improve significantly from what was seen at NAB - especially if you saw it on Monday rather than Tuesday.

Michael Kobb
04-26-2012, 01:09 PM
This question highlights one of the major advantages of the modular design we applied to the projector.

Traditional designs place the lamp in the projector head, it gets hot, and hence you need to put substantial cooling (fans) there too.

In our modular design, the "lamp" is in a rack mount chassis that can be located a considerable distance from the optical head.


So no "projection box" needed.

Stuart, I agree this is a great feature.

Question: Is the projection head totally silent and fanless, or does it still contain one or more fans? If it has fans, please keep in mind that for home theater, even subtle humming or buzzing really kills the atmosphere.

Also, I didn't go to NAB, but I looked at some of the photos taken there. It looked like there were HDMI inputs on the back of the projector. I wonder if you have considered putting inputs onto the light engine box. It would be wonderful to be able to make an HDMI connection right in the equipment rack rather than running a long, expensive and trouble-prone cable out to the projector.

I really am interested to see this machine in person. It's still not a viable option for my house at this time, due to the requirement for a special screen for 3D. Perhaps someday, but not soon, since I just bought a new screen.

Wayne Morellini
04-27-2012, 06:56 AM
You know Stuart, I'm glad you guys are targeting small theaters. I was pushing for Red to do this before, like to see the little guy helped out. Why I'm at red user, to see Red customers getting good value.

Still, again, how does this projector scan, and any hope of putting in vesa hold frame feature, and vector commands data channel to frame buffer (or scanned if possible) for graphics in light shows?

Wayne Morellini
04-27-2012, 06:59 AM
Do we need lasers to do this job, don't phlat leds offer most of the monochromatic advantage at higher energy efficencies?

Ben Price
04-27-2012, 08:06 AM
High output LED's can do the job and have before. I have seen prototype LED powerd projection systems that people here in the US thought worked great but was shot down when shown to a group in Japan, interesting really, it was a differance in color perception that some in the test group felt was cultural possibly. but basically it was metameric failure. i think this can happen with any imaging system that uses too narrow of a source spectrum.

Stuart English
04-27-2012, 08:39 AM
Question: Is the projection head totally silent and fanless, or does it still contain one or more fans? If it has fans, please keep in mind that for home theater, even subtle humming or buzzing really kills the atmosphere.

Also, I didn't go to NAB, but I looked at some of the photos taken there. It looked like there were HDMI inputs on the back of the projector. I wonder if you have considered putting inputs onto the light engine box. It would be wonderful to be able to make an HDMI connection right in the equipment rack rather than running a long, expensive and trouble-prone cable out to the projector.

Yes the Display (light modulator and optics) Module is specified to be silent. Auxiliary video inputs plug into the rack mounted Video Processor (REDray player and audio / video circuits) Module which relays those as 4K images to the Display module.

Stuart English
04-27-2012, 08:43 AM
You know Stuart, I'm glad you guys are targeting small theaters. I was pushing for Red to do this before, like to see the little guy helped out. Why I'm at red user, to see Red customers getting good value.

Thanks Wayne. If we can help our customers win, we win too. It's all good.

Patrick Chong
04-27-2012, 07:52 PM
You guys should reach out to IMAX, seems their laser system is a little behind...

Wayne Morellini
04-28-2012, 04:42 AM
High output LED's can do the job and have before. I have seen prototype LED powerd projection systems that people here in the US thought worked great but was shot down when shown to a group in Japan, interesting really, it was a differance in color perception that some in the test group felt was cultural possibly. but basically it was metameric failure. i think this can happen with any imaging system that uses too narrow of a source spectrum.

Yes, bit off, I was not thinking of their power limitations for something of sizable size. But this shift in the color frequency of oerception is interesting. Across people ina race there should be a shift among individuals, I have a shift between both my eyes. So between diverse races it would be interesting, do we need to specify a minimum spread of frequence for each primary? This might work if there is a problem, and easier than what I am about to suggest, because it might still lead to imbalances. The other solution is to have a group of frequencies, which means seperate bands for each color, balanced so that, at least, the majority of individuals perceive color with more accuracy, due to not individual bands for each group, but balancing between the bands, where the bands may not even be at peak, but positioned so the energy of all bands accumulates to better color for the majority (if not all) of groups. Tricky, but you can just change the frequencies for each region, which might not require a change in recording frequencies (wishful thinking) but of the projection. Here we have another problem of film recording that is probably ignored, but I have contemplated systems that sensor capture a range of frequencies and model a recording of them for latter use. But now a more ideal system comes to mind, and yet another to capture on sensor. I actually previously did come up with a way to record a so read of frequencies seperately, exciting times those days.

Wayne Morellini
04-28-2012, 04:55 AM
Thanks Wayne. If we can help our customers win, we win too. It's all good.

Yes, I wanted to volunteer as a sales person going around the small cinemas, but at that stage my health was not up to it. A passion for sure, great way to see the country, but I can virtually garrantee most of the small, mostly country, independents would scratch their heads before contemplating if they should get rid of me. Hard sell to these people, as everything and the dominating theater chains in the nearst city is putting them out. We did not have antitrust laws here like the states, so variouse markets got dominated. But, with the national broadband network there is easy way to set up film distribution using Red (which is below the standard data rate) versus existing (which is way above the rate, so costly). But I can easily see that market double over here from new small independent art house theater, even started by film clubs, to concentrate on Indie stuff. I actually am interested in multi-functional venues that can use the projector and seating area for other things in regional location, such as a local sports club that could multi purpose large entertainment venue as theaters when nothing is booked, probably more common over here. See, the market is not so limited, but it would be better if the projector could do a 15 meter screen for $10-20k.

Wayne Morellini
04-28-2012, 04:56 AM
BTW Stuart, how does the scanning mechanism work?

Wayne Morellini
04-29-2012, 06:27 AM
To summaries. The basic projector is a complex configuration of a beast in the way it is setup, and not conducive to cheap mass production?

Wayne Morellini
04-29-2012, 06:35 AM
I wonder, is it possible to serialize a series, or otherwise concentrate, of high efficiency monochromatic leds into a concentrated beam, I guess it is. We have had 80% efficiency leds for sometime over here, but not monochromatic. I believe the inventor is using a similar scheme to an old scheme I came up with, and I might be able to modify the output to monochromatic with a new scheme I came up with. That would solve much heating problems, if the last leds are still working at the low rates of efficiency they used to (I think ir or red beams were the only ones I heard of before working at any reasonable efficencies), however I should be able to change the colors of these too.

Michael Kobb
04-29-2012, 11:05 AM
Yes the Display (light modulator and optics) Module is specified to be silent. Auxiliary video inputs plug into the rack mounted Video Processor (REDray player and audio / video circuits) Module which relays those as 4K images to the Display module.
That's great!

Stuart English
04-29-2012, 09:56 PM
The basic projector is a complex configuration of a beast in the way it is setup, and not conducive to cheap mass production?

Eh ?

Christoffer Glans
04-29-2012, 11:13 PM
What is the latency for the projector? I have plans to use it throughout post, as a one-light, editorial monitor, online/VFX, grading and final viewing. So in editing, latency is quite important for a fast and fluid workpace (at least for me), as well as in grading where I would like to see the changes as I do them, not moments later.

What are we aiming for here? 5ms, 9ms?

Les Dittert
04-29-2012, 11:28 PM
This projector does not raster scan a laser beam on the screen. It looks to be LCOS with laser light source.
At the present time, it would be illegal to do a raster beam type projector due to antique laser laws in place.


BTW Stuart, how does the scanning mechanism work?

Wayne Morellini
04-30-2012, 07:59 AM
This projector does not raster scan a laser beam on the screen. It looks to be LCOS with laser light source.
At the present time, it would be illegal to do a raster beam type projector due to antique laser laws in place.

Yeah, I read about the research into single spot systems. There are a number of ways that I addressed these in my own designs. I'm still not giving up how my thing works from the other thread.

I would count a dmd as a scanning system too though. Lcos, that is an interesting CHIOCE. Is anything said anywhere on this? I can speculate on the Lcos chioce, just on the performance needed (reflectivity efficency, heat, type of pixel mechanism, speed). If we knew a lot about Lcos, we could probably quickly narrow down a couple of technologies, and maybe a couple of companies.

Stuart English
04-30-2012, 08:04 AM
What is the latency for the projector? I have plans to use it throughout post, as a one-light, editorial monitor, online/VFX, grading and final viewing. So in editing, latency is quite important for a fast and fluid workpace (at least for me), as well as in grading where I would like to see the changes as I do them, not moments later.

What are we aiming for here? 5ms, 9ms?

Another Eh? So by that comment can I assume that you will only grade on a CRT rather than on a LCD or Plasma or DCI projector ?

Wayne Morellini
04-30-2012, 08:08 AM
Eh ?

:-)

That was an easy one Stuart, written in a language we are familiar with. What was your last name? ;)

"The basic projector is a complex configuration of a beast in the way it is setup, and not conducive to cheap mass production?"

The design of the upgradable projector over many parts and display mechanism, makes it difficult to mass produce as cheaply as a all in one 15 foot unit using a cheap display engine setup? Cheap production being in the $2k range.

Luv stumping engineers with English! ;)

Stuart English
04-30-2012, 08:14 AM
... The design of the upgradable projector over many parts and display mechanism, makes it difficult to mass produce as cheaply as a all in one 15 foot unit using a cheap display engine setup? ...

O.K, just wanted to clarify what your opinion was there.

Stuart English
04-30-2012, 08:16 AM
You guys should reach out to IMAX, seems their laser system is a little behind...

:-)

Wayne Morellini
04-30-2012, 08:28 AM
Another Eh? So by that comment can I assume that you will only grade on a CRT rather than on a LCD or Plasma or DCI projector ?

Hmm, I am interested too. LCOS, have reached hundreds of frames of sequential color ages ago, and blue phase LCD can go much high, and I do not know about Los versions of that. However, it has to be, more or less, stable activity at the laser energy input, so a clear 100% on to off, off to on, or anything I between, what is the slowest refresh rate? Going onto another issue Stuart, what is the maximum contrast ratio, and black level on a max lit Lcos? What is the life expectency of the lcos, without performance degregation that would shift relative intensity of any pixel levels by more than 1024th (adding an error of one pixel level on a wide dynamic range). To be fair, it might not be an issue until more than 512th, an error of 256th, how long would that take? Conventional LCD projection systems are notorious for going off.

But, he might also refer to just the time delay between the live video signal being sent and the frame being rendered on screen. I can imagine if there is time delay in camera transmission, computer reception and processing of image data and transmission and projection, then it might also add up to something substantial (btw, happy end of April day over there :-) ) .

Wayne Morellini
04-30-2012, 08:31 AM
O.K, just wanted to clarify what your opinion was there.

Don't need a speculative opinion there Stuart, if you spill those little red jumping beans :-)

Aaron Fritz
05-02-2012, 12:34 PM
So I guess This is the Projector from HDI3d. Since that Companys website is offline.

You can test latency of a projector

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1377652

Christoffer Glans
05-02-2012, 10:45 PM
Another Eh? So by that comment can I assume that you will only grade on a CRT rather than on a LCD or Plasma or DCI projector ?

Didn't want to produce an eh here :)
No, I rather use LCD's or plasmas, and the latency for them are quite workable. Just wanted to know a little about latency for editing because it can slip the video out of sync if you aren't getting the audio out of the projector (like when using a mixing table)

Stuart English
05-02-2012, 10:55 PM
No, I rather use LCD's or plasmas, and the latency for them are quite workable. Just wanted to know a little about latency for editing because it can slip the video out of sync if you aren't getting the audio out of the projector (like when using a mixing table)

Well for any digital display device (not an analog system such as CRT) you can assume 1 or 2 frames of processing.

Which is why you slip the audio on the playback device - or feed through an audio delay unit - to compensate for that.

Jeff Kilgroe
05-03-2012, 04:44 PM
So I guess This is the Projector from HDI3d. Since that Companys website is offline.

Huh? The HD-I3D is made by Bernelli (who's site is not offline, works just fine here). And it's a 1080p projector aimed at upper mid-range home theatre installations, it has built in YouTube and Netflix as well as the ability to directly connect your iPod.

Maybe I misunderstood what you're commenting on, but it just seemed really out of place...

Michael Kobb
05-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Huh? The HD-I3D is made by Bernelli (who's site is not offline, works just fine here). And it's a 1080p projector aimed at upper mid-range home theatre installations, it has built in YouTube and Netflix as well as the ability to directly connect your iPod.

Maybe I misunderstood what you're commenting on, but it just seemed really out of place...

Different hyphen placement. There was a company called HDI that was doing a laser-based projector.

Jeff Kilgroe
05-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Different hyphen placement. There was a company called HDI that was doing a laser-based projector.

Hmmm....

Not sure there's any real connection. It seems that HDI announced their laser projector(s) about the same time that RED did. And forgive me, as I just did a few minutes of online sleuthing so may have missed it, but it seems that their web site has been down since late last year. And even as late as august of last year, this HDI company couldn't produce anything more than a couple very crappy looking product renders. They apparently also announced a laser-based TV previously and never managed to show even a physical mock-up, let alone a functional product.

Chuck Z
05-03-2012, 09:23 PM
I definitely believe RED scooped up HDI 3D. Their laser projector specs closely mirror RED's. There is a great thread about the REDray Projector on the AVS Forums where people have speculated and analyzed between the two.

Espen Jensen
05-08-2012, 08:12 AM
I know I asked this before.. but didn't see a response. Is there any chance of RED coming to Infocomm? I looked at the exhibitors list and didn't see your company name on there.

Christoffer Glans
05-15-2012, 11:22 PM
Well for any digital display device (not an analog system such as CRT) you can assume 1 or 2 frames of processing.

Which is why you slip the audio on the playback device - or feed through an audio delay unit - to compensate for that.

Yeah, true, but that's why I try to keep latency down, to be able to edit without delay. It's the "working at the speed of thought". Like the difference now between Avid and Premiere, Avid is cool and all but there is so much latency when editing, not just in playback but in moving/trimming etc. Premiere is super fast. It's the feel and flow.
So we might be expecting 1-2 frames delay on this as well I presume?

Umar Agha
05-18-2012, 08:51 AM
I noticed that the REDray has HDMI 1.4 inputs. I know HDMI 1.4 can do 4K so it's a natural choice, but what about DVI/SDI, etc.? I ask because thus far most "pro" equipment has focused on the latter two. Also, while building a system to run Resolve, I would need to know what kind of cards to install for 4K playback over the connections that the REDray/projector will support.

I would personally prefer HDMI because of the A/V both in one cable and the fact that it can also be used with high-end home theater equipment (our screening room is also connected to a AV processor for Blu-rays, etc.).

Any thoughts?

Blair S. Paulsen
05-18-2012, 09:38 AM
The blessing and the curse of HDMI. Thunderbolt/Display Port - save ussssssssssssssss....................

Cheers - #19

Patrick Grossien
05-20-2012, 02:36 AM
:-)

I love that smile! can't wait to see whats brewing!

Stuart English
05-20-2012, 07:43 AM
Is there any chance of RED coming to Infocomm? I looked at the exhibitors list and didn't see your company name on there.

No plans to attend this year. But it's a good suggestion.

Stuart English
05-20-2012, 07:49 AM
I noticed that the REDray has HDMI 1.4 inputs. I know HDMI 1.4 can do 4K so it's a natural choice, but what about DVI/SDI, etc.? I ask because thus far most "pro" equipment has focused on the latter two. ..... I would personally prefer HDMI because of the A/V both in one cable and the fact that it can also be used with high-end home theater equipment (our screening room is also connected to a AV processor for Blu-rays, etc.).

No DVI support - external inputs illustrated at NAB were HD-SDI and HDMI.

But the REDray projector system could accommodate a wide variety of options over time with different modules.

Patrick Tresch
05-20-2012, 07:59 AM
variety of options over time with different modules.

I don't know why the word "modules" makes me shiver...

Pat