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Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 12:04 AM
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1334598494.jpg

Ryan Nichols
04-16-2012, 12:05 AM
120 FPS?!!! Oh man, awesome! What’s the price?!

Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 12:06 AM
Price announced soon... Ships with the Projector this year.

Antonio Forjaz
04-16-2012, 12:07 AM
not missing this one....

Steve Sherrick
04-16-2012, 12:08 AM
2012?
that looks great.

Edit: Jarred's too fast :-)

Yannick Sadler
04-16-2012, 12:08 AM
Of course you will provide DRM software? Kind of a RCX (free) or will there be a licencing fee?

Brad Allen
04-16-2012, 12:10 AM
Okay - maybe a stupid question, but if aimed at cinemas too, does the player include any sort of DCP playback?

Either way, this is going to be extremely cool to pair with the new projector :)

Detlev Eller
04-16-2012, 12:10 AM
sweet (!)

Fergus Meiklejohn
04-16-2012, 12:34 AM
Okay - maybe a stupid question, but if aimed at cinemas too, does the player include any sort of DCP playback?

Either way, this is going to be extremely cool to pair with the new projector :)

Yeah I'm not clear about this either: is RedRay just for people looking to project RED footage, or will it play all kinds of media and do a nice job of upscaling where necessary?

Stuart English
04-16-2012, 12:38 AM
... this is going to be extremely cool to pair with the new projector :)

No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player.

The REDray Player is for all the other types of emerging 4K displays and for existing 1080p displays.

It's also an excellent choice for digital signage as it can drive up to four 1080p displays in perfect sync.

Erich Ocean
04-16-2012, 12:44 AM
Can it download content from the Internet? I'm thinking of it as an endpoint for content distribution...

Brad Allen
04-16-2012, 12:44 AM
No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player.

Wow - did not realize this at all. When Jarred said it is shipping "with" the Red Projector, I assumed that meant that they were shipping at the same time. So the RedRay player is included in that sub-10k price point for the Red Projector - awesome.

Looking forward to sinking my teeth into some more detailed tech specs :)

Brad Allen
04-16-2012, 12:48 AM
Can it download content from the Internet? I'm thinking of it as an endpoint for content distribution...
Pretty cool idea Erich - especially if RedRay codec ends up being around that 20mbit mark...

Sergio Perez
04-16-2012, 12:48 AM
This is what I'm waiting for. I can see many uses for this. It downscales 4K to 1080p, right? This could be "THE" professional player of choice for red content. I can see the redray player being everywhere from different type of Events/Venues, Post production houses, on sets... If played well with an aggressive price this can cement itself as the 4K standard player for many professsional applications!

Stuart English
04-16-2012, 12:49 AM
Can it download content from the Internet? I'm thinking of it as an endpoint for content distribution...

Yes you will be able to send 4K content to it over the internet. Same is true for the REDray Projector

Ketch Rossi
04-16-2012, 12:49 AM
This one is an interesting one indeed, but I guess I wan't worry too much about it, as it will ship with my RED LASER PROJECTOR... ;)

Stuart English
04-16-2012, 12:52 AM
This is what I'm waiting for. I can see many uses for this. It downscales 4K to 1080p, right? This could be "THE" professional player of choice for red content. I can see the redray player being everywhere from different type of Events/Venues, Post production houses, on sets... If played well with an aggressive price this can cement itself as the 4K standard player for many professsional applications!

Yes it supports downscaling from 4K to 1080p.

Or it can be used to deliver and play back four synchronized 1080p signals for digital signage applications.

Erich Ocean
04-16-2012, 12:53 AM
Yes you will be able to send 4K content to it over the internet. Same is true for the REDray Projector

This is going to be huge. I hope Jim is ready for the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of projectors he's going to be selling...

Will Keir
04-16-2012, 12:53 AM
4k projector?


This one is an interesting one indeed, but I guess I wan't worry too much about it, as it will ship with my RED LASER PROJECTOR... ;)

Will Keir
04-16-2012, 12:54 AM
tens of thousands. Now we're in the projector market too.


This is going to be huge. I hope Jim is ready for the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of projectors he's going to be selling...

Cüneyt Kaya
04-16-2012, 12:56 AM
will redcine x be able to convert non red footage to the streaming codec?
thinking of VFX shots integrated into movies ( and B-cams)
then it can be the standard in distribution for everything!

J.K.Dibbets
04-16-2012, 12:57 AM
Amazing. All my bragging about 4k display at 120 fps finally come to an end. Finally a company that also cares for sharp motion too. Finally gone are the days that we hide detail with motionblur. Cant tell you how releave I am. It's a scientific topic. Even though Im just a young guy I will do everything in my power to promote projection that come close to the specifications of the human eye. This will be a game changer though it will last a while before logistics catch up! You cant imagine how happy I feel about this.

Ketch Rossi
04-16-2012, 12:59 AM
4k projector?

Yes of course 4K what else... ;)

Will Keir
04-16-2012, 01:11 AM
Can the REDray be used as a computer replacement to the REDrocket card?


No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player.

The REDray Player is for all the other types of emerging 4K displays and for existing 1080p displays.

It's also an excellent choice for digital signage as it can drive up to four 1080p displays in perfect sync.

Will Keir
04-16-2012, 01:13 AM
All these updates, I am in ridiculous land right now. Wish I was there to say hello and see the 4k. Was there a screening of some Hobbit footage yet?


Yes of course 4K what else... ;)

Stuart English
04-16-2012, 01:14 AM
will redcine x be able to convert non red footage to the streaming codec?
thinking of VFX shots integrated into movies ( and B-cams) then it can be the standard in distribution for everything!

We believe in offering our customers choices - although RED will always be the best choice.

So yes, you will be able to input either .R3D or 4K DPX file footage into the REDray encoder.

Cüneyt Kaya
04-16-2012, 01:15 AM
4k DPX sounds good!

Hans Magnus Kvåle
04-16-2012, 01:18 AM
This and the projector is gonna "futurize" our home entertainment system and I can't wait to let it happen!! ;-) What a day this is turning out to be here, and what a week it must be in Vegas for those of you that are attending NAB.
Have a nice one guys :-)

we didn't make it this year and it hurts a bit now...

George Tsai
04-16-2012, 01:18 AM
We believe in offering our customers choices - although RED will always be the best choice.

So yes, you will be able to input either .R3D or 4K DPX file footage into the REDray encoder.

Redray encoder? is it a hardware encoder or purely software based? Or do you mean the redray player can play DPX directly?

Brad Allen
04-16-2012, 01:20 AM
We believe in offering our customers choices - although RED will always be the best choice.

So yes, you will be able to input either .R3D or 4K DPX file footage into the REDray encoder.

This might be beyond what you are allowed to answer Stuart - but is the REDray Encoder an open format or does it require licensing of some sort? As far as I can tell, RedRay seems be the most promising codec for end delivery of 4k content currently. The possibility that it could be open for decoding and encoding outside of Red software excites me to no end. Is it possible that one day I will be able to export from Premiere to the RedRay codec?

Alex Kiritz
04-16-2012, 01:24 AM
Is the hard drive upgradeable?

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-16-2012, 01:24 AM
Stuart, at NAB last year you were showing two Rays - a 'Pro' which was to ship real soon, and a 'prosumer' unit for further down the road.

Are these now rolled into one? Or is the prosumer Ray dropped as part of the 'stick to the high-end pro only' strategy?

Mike

Jarred Land
04-16-2012, 01:24 AM
Is the hard drive upgradeable?

of course :)

Ketch Rossi
04-16-2012, 01:51 AM
All these updates, I am in ridiculous land right now. Wish I was there to say hello and see the 4k. Was there a screening of some Hobbit footage yet?

No footage of the Hobbits just the Title used on a keynote presentation by Michael Cioni, a very Bd A^%$ presentation that is... ;)

Phil Holland
04-16-2012, 01:53 AM
USB 3.0 please. It's gotta be right?

Henrik Cednert
04-16-2012, 02:09 AM
Any more technical info about the REDPASS DRM and how that will work? I mean for your own content and so. Will there be a standalone application for encoding and DRM'ing your stuffs?

Erich Ocean
04-16-2012, 02:12 AM
Will it play by 4K material at 2:1 aspect ratio?

Liana
04-16-2012, 02:19 AM
No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player.


Oh, wow. <speechless>

This is an incredible deal when you consider the target price for the projector is around $10K. Considering until recently theaters were paying $50K-$100K for glorified 1080p projectors, the value offered by new Redray projector defies belief.

Even the most miserly / pessimistic theater owner(s) have no excuse not to upgrade to 4K.. 4K is happening, only question is whether Red can produce thousands of projectors per year or not.

John Marchant
04-16-2012, 02:36 AM
Will anything beyond a cuts-only edit of R3D format content need to conform to DPX for output through REDray?

How is the workflow envisioned (at the simplest level) if I shoot an R3D and want to dissolve to another shot, crop or reframe? Will there be a point where we can use the R3D format in a bi-directional mode, writing R3D compressed data, or will DPX (or similar) always take over when creation of new frames is required? Interested on the impact with regard to editing choices and desktop level workflow.

Erich Ocean
04-16-2012, 02:44 AM
Will anything beyond a cuts-only edit of R3D format content need to conform to DPX for output through REDray?

How is the workflow envisioned (at the simplest level) if I shoot an R3D and want to dissolve to another shot, crop or reframe? Will there be a point where we can use the R3D format in a bi-directional mode, writing R3D compressed data, or will DPX (or similar) always take over when creation of new frames is required? Interested on the impact with regard to editing choices and desktop level workflow.

As I understand it, there is a separate RGB RedCode they've developed that is low bit rate (~15Mbit/sec?). That's what you'll want to do a final encode to and ship over the Internet (with or without their DRM).

Alex Kiritz
04-16-2012, 02:49 AM
of course :)

Ok, Can I plug in a camera for 4K teleconferencing?

Michael Lindsay
04-16-2012, 04:58 AM
No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player.

The REDray Player is for all the other types of emerging 4K displays and for existing 1080p displays.

It's also an excellent choice for digital signage as it can drive up to four 1080p displays in perfect sync.

It all sound fantastic... Quick Q is it possible to sync multiple players together?

Thanks Michael L

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 07:11 AM
120 FPS?!!! Oh man, awesome! What’s the price?!

Yes, young Jedi, the force is truely with you,

No more of this 24fps 4k stuff.

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 07:18 AM
No need to pair, the REDray Projector includes a REDray Player

The REDray Player is for all the other types of emerging 4K displays and for existing 1080p displays.

It's also an excellent choice for digital signage as it can drive up to four 1080p displays in perfect sync.

But I cant afford the camera projector and redray Stuart. Is the redray system going to be available seperately from the laser, and will there be a cheap player only version and software encode for presentation systems, or internet viewing? I'm talking low budget here, and the opportunity as a consumer viewing platform. I'm interested in it's use in kiosk applications.


Now for the big questions, how does it work, how does the compression work? I'm interested in comparing it to my decade old technology ideas.

Thanks Stuart, and thanks Red.

Jeremy Neish
04-16-2012, 07:49 AM
Any news on an interactive layer? Please tell me we can author special features in simple HTML 5.

Patrick Tresch
04-16-2012, 08:03 AM
Okay - maybe a stupid question, but if aimed at cinemas too, does the player include any sort of DCP playback?


+1

It's great to have a new distribution Codec, and even better when it's low bitrate. But how does it compare to DCP?
I was very sceptical when R3D was announced and the bitrate RED was proclaiming. And the result was/is amaizing. Hope the new codec has the same magic in it.
Does the Projector have any connectors for use with any standard DCP servers?

Patrick

Elsie N
04-16-2012, 08:25 AM
Cannot wait for the full details on this. Will they be posted on the product information page or will all details trickle out on Reduser? There's just so much to know about this before being able to envision its potential.

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 08:38 AM
Any news on an interactive layer? Please tell me we can author special features in simple HTML 5.

Hmm, yeah, I think I was also requesting a vector graphics capability for presentations and lighting shows, I know one of the interfaces has a hold frame feature too, Amy of this guys? Could then run 4k vector and stills from tablet.

Wayne Morellini
04-16-2012, 08:43 AM
Hmm, sorry, wrong thread that post was about the laser projector.

Rob Lohman
04-16-2012, 08:49 AM
We'll be talking about workflow solutions later in the year. Needless to say that we want you guys to be able to encode content ;)

Joseph Ward
04-16-2012, 09:36 AM
REDPASS DRM?

Scott Summers
04-16-2012, 10:43 AM
Is Red planning on merketing Redray as the new bluray? Are you likely to be starting up the whole 4K format with Universal, Sony Pictures etc as the next big thing away from physical media and into digital media/cloud library?

paul engstrom
04-16-2012, 11:49 AM
RED PASS DRM?????? !!!!! This sounds interesting. Who else is supporting this? What does this mean for content distribution and theatrical applications?

Great stuff!!

Brian Harbauer
04-16-2012, 12:04 PM
Wow this is good news. I take it RED has a solution to get content to the consumer in other mediums other than disk? Such as a RED cloud or store? I'm hoping distribution companies are already signing up!

Barry Bishop
04-16-2012, 12:07 PM
I think the biggest question that everyone is missing is the lens included?????

AJ Aguirre
04-16-2012, 12:10 PM
Found these pictures!

Man this thing is intimidating!
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/redray-4k-cinema-laser-hands-on/

Elsie N
04-16-2012, 12:23 PM
Wow! Titanium PL mount.

Bing Bailey
04-16-2012, 12:52 PM
how heavy is this thing and what size is it. is that the final design

Alex Kiritz
04-16-2012, 01:00 PM
I think the biggest question that everyone is missing is the lens included?????
They're including a separate content server/player and you think they wouldn't include a lens?

Gunleik Groven
04-16-2012, 01:06 PM
50mm RPP is da shit! :)

Elsie N
04-16-2012, 01:58 PM
Wow this is good news. I take it RED has a solution to get content to the consumer in other mediums other than disk? Such as a RED cloud or store? I'm hoping distribution companies are already signing up!

I had this weird hope that when Deanan left he was doing so with Jim's blessing to set up such an apparatus for the coming Red Player and Projector to have compatible content.

Adrian T.
04-16-2012, 02:07 PM
50mm RPP is da shit! :)

That's why they're sold out in the store... :-D

Barry Bishop
04-16-2012, 02:31 PM
They're including a separate content server/player and you think they wouldn't include a lens?

YUP!

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
04-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Holly Stromboli I really want to see this in Action!!

Michael Hastings
04-16-2012, 07:40 PM
This one is an interesting one indeed, but I guess I wan't worry too much about it, as it will ship with my RED LASER PROJECTOR... ;)

Just once I want to get one before you! :-)

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 08:25 PM
Finally, this is the game changer.
And 120fps 4K encapsulated in Red projector, uh oh what a dream machine :001_tt1: :drool: :drool:


What bitrate it has in 4K 120fps?

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 08:41 PM
So its 2K for each eye in 3D?

Peter Ruchti
04-16-2012, 08:51 PM
This is incredible. I plan on owning a RED someday, as soon as I can afford it. Too bad they don't get out educational discounts...

Kevin Wild
04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
I'm pretty sure Jim said that what we saw today already was 2K in each eye and that they're hoping in just a couple days to have the dual streams of 4K going from the projector. CRAZY!

Kevin

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Warning on Red projector :smiley:

"Dangerous thinking, delusional deadlines, grandiose goals, obsessive-compulsive and continual changes, endless electronics, equation-bending deviant logic, fluorescent nights, hypersensitive components and personalities.

Prior to being injected into the main accelerator, the particles are prepared by a series of systems that successively increase their energy. The first system is the linear particle accelerator generation 50-MEV protons, which feeds the proton syndication booster. There the protons are accelerated to 1.4 GEV and injected into the proton synchrotron, where they are accelerated to 25 GEV. Finally the super proton synchrotron is used to further increase their energy to 450 GEV before they are last injected into the main housing. Here the proton bunches are accumulated, accelerated to their peak 7-TEV energy, and finally circulated while photon collisions occur at the four intersection points within the human eye, thus creating images in the brain the world has never before experienced."

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/04/red001.jpg

Petr Dvorak
04-16-2012, 09:14 PM
I'm pretty sure Jim said that what we saw today already was 2K in each eye and that they're hoping in just a couple days to have the dual streams of 4K going from the projector. CRAZY!

Kevin

Crazy indeed, can't wait to see it on my own eyes. :emote_popcorn:

Stuart English
04-17-2012, 01:27 AM
It's great to have a new distribution Codec, and even better when it's low bitrate. But how does it compare to DCP?
I was very sceptical when R3D was announced and the bitrate RED was proclaiming. And the result was/is amaizing. Hope the new codec has the same magic in it.
Does the Projector have any connectors for use with any standard DCP servers?

Patrick

Yes it is the intent to be able to connect a standard DCP server as an input to the REDray laser projector.

However as the RED RAY codec is so efficient, in our opinion you'll get comparable image quality and significantly better specs - meaning frame size x max frame rate x stereo presentation - from the internal REDray player.

Stuart English
04-17-2012, 01:35 AM
Is the redray system going to be available seperately from the laser, and will there be a cheap player only version and software encode for presentation systems, or internet viewing? I'm talking low budget here, and the opportunity as a consumer viewing platform. I'm interested in it's use in kiosk applications.


Absolutely. That's the REDray Player product as opposed to the REDray Projector product.

Kiosk applications are a perfect fit for that.


It all sound fantastic... Quick Q is it possible to sync multiple players together?


Yes you can also do that.

Each REDray player can drive up to four 1080p displays in perfect sync, and because it can accept a standard tri-level sync signal, multiple players can be synced together for large scale video walls.

Torbjörn Jansson
04-17-2012, 11:19 AM
When Can We order one REDRay 18' edition ???

indivfx
04-17-2012, 01:25 PM
2012 i get it. That so cool. But which month? :) Can't wait!!

Wayne Morellini
04-19-2012, 08:05 AM
Now for the big questions, how does it work, how does the compression work? I'm interested in comparing it to my decade old technology ideas.

Thanks Stuart, and thanks Red.

Jimmie crickets, I hear crickets. :-)

Michael Stone
04-20-2012, 08:54 AM
Yes it supports downscaling from 4K to 1080p.

Or it can be used to deliver and play back four synchronized 1080p signals for digital signage applications.

A related question, just because I haven't seen it asked yet.....

How about content going the other way? Will it upscale 1080p to 4k? Or will we need something else for upscaling normal TV/blu-ray movie input?

Jeff Kilgroe
04-20-2012, 09:03 AM
So its 2K for each eye in 3D?

4K each eye, simultaneous display!!!!

Stuart English
04-20-2012, 10:34 PM
A related question, just because I haven't seen it asked yet.....

How about content going the other way? Will it upscale 1080p to 4k? Or will we need something else for upscaling normal TV/blu-ray movie input?

On the REDray Projector yes it can do that It has an HDMI input for that specific purpose.

Also both REDray Player and REDray projector can decode and then upscale 720p and 1080p .MP4 videos to 4K.

(i.e. dual codec support, for legacy compression format compatibly)

Jannard
04-20-2012, 10:43 PM
BTW... while we can upscale 1080P content to play, it looks just like you would expect.

Jim

Brad Allen
04-20-2012, 11:18 PM
Yes it is the intent to be able to connect a standard DCP server as an input to the REDray laser projector.

Hi Stuart,

Just wondering if you guys would ever consider looking into allowing the Redray player to act as the DCP server? It would be exceptional if I could use the projector and player as a way of color proofing a DCP before distribution without needing to setup a seperate server for it - just an idea anyway :)

Stuart English
04-21-2012, 12:12 AM
BTW... while we can upscale 1080P content to play, it looks just like you would expect.

Jim

Indeed. This is for legacy / compatibility only, there is no visual comparison to 4K content - even when viewed on a 1080p LCD or Plasma display, let alone projected.

ericyoung
04-21-2012, 04:21 PM
RED PASS DRM?????? !!!!! This sounds interesting. Who else is supporting this? What does this mean for content distribution and theatrical applications?

Great stuff!!

Digital Rights Management understandable. Geographical zones like DVD/BluRay ... please no - SO stupid & retarded!

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 10:08 AM
RED PASS DRM?????? !!!!! What does this mean for content distribution and theatrical applications?

More on this later, but:

- It's extremely robust

- It's very flexible

- It's designed to put the content owner in control.

- You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

Stuart English
04-22-2012, 10:10 AM
Just wondering if you guys would ever consider looking into allowing the Redray player to act as the DCP server? It would be exceptional if I could use the projector and player as a way of color proofing a DCP before distribution without needing to setup a seperate server for it - just an idea anyway :)


As 2K DCP servers (either as a DCI certified standalone device or just a PC with video card) are pretty inexpensive, if you use one of those as the input to your REDray projector you should be good to go for your described application.

Michael Stone
04-23-2012, 08:40 AM
Indeed. This is for legacy / compatibility only, there is no visual comparison to 4K content - even when viewed on a 1080p LCD or Plasma display, let alone projected.

I understand completely. There is only so far you can blow up a lower resolution signal before it starts to look blocky and ugly.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-25-2012, 07:55 AM
...Sony just released 4K Blu-Ray to the masses and is now shipping players. Yes, they released early.

Really hoping that RED RAY can pull off a coup here.

Richard Fox
04-25-2012, 08:38 AM
https://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_video/release/62908.html?CSRT=10560350614581982014

Press release states that Sony released a Blu-ray player with ability to upscale HD content to 4K. Remains to be seen if future firmware upgrade will enable playback of 4K Blu-ray content.

Stacey Spears
04-25-2012, 08:56 AM
...Sony just released 4K Blu-Ray to the masses and is now shipping players. That's misleading. They did not release a 4k Blu-ray player. They released a Blu-ray player that can scale to 4k. Big difference.At this point the scaling in their player and their 4k display looks about the same. Once someone implements the new smoothing algorithm from DVDO (ABT, now Silicon Image), then you will see a big improvement in HD scaled to 4k. Not the best name for the algorithm, but the results are great. It removes aliasing along diagonals. This is important when you scale an image up >2x. They also have a non-ringing scaling engine. Something the Sony does not have. I beta tested the algorithm a few of years ago. It would have been in a product by now, but that all changed when Silicon Image aquired ABT. Here are a couple sample images.https://1uqfcg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pfahtSIW_DyfGvj7IAjyW-fgP8mylgLGmbHbeRBsKGAGY6Fegtr1agsZcZY6tCIcGm77LSw4 hFeJ-N1m4g91T2-0nSXKHhlDB/Smoothing_01.jpg?psid=1https://1uqfcg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pJxGS7aZnjRDkYCJu2a6Kwo8KFCJJBpGUsqM8Z2dDi2OEvwv iSo4exvEp1YE4k8e8mpuEzF0Y3D6VllkqXF0MGBAB6-3rZPA5/Smoothing_02.jpg?psid=1

Jeff Kilgroe
04-25-2012, 09:05 AM
Yeah, you're right. Oops. Got ahead of myself... Didn't realize that they're still talking about the S790 player. Which is interesting... Interesting because it's already been available in the channel since late February, so apparently it was released and then had an official release at a later date? WTF? Or was this the launch that made it officially available in N. America?

That will teach me to post before investigating.

Stacey Spears
04-25-2012, 12:31 PM
At this point I think the BDA may have formed a working group to investigate 4k. I believe they would probably wait for H.265, which should be baked by early 2013.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-25-2012, 12:48 PM
BDA has already formed it over a year ago (or for I've been told, or misinformed as may be) and Sony has already demoed lab prototypes, not just up-scaling players. Their "4K" is QFHD 3840x2160. They were playing this up at CES, but only the upscaling player was shown, saying Blu-4k would launch by the end of the year along with their 4K HDTVs. At NAB the 4K panels were there, but the 4K Blu-Ray, even the upscaling player, was curiously missing. Their 4K consumer/prosumer display looked like crap though. One of the demos had an 8K-wide image stitched across two displays showing a soccer game. Nice resolution, but the display panels had terrible color and were very milky and washed out with generally poor response time. Some of the worst-looking 4K LCDs on the show floor, IMO.

Wayne Morellini
04-27-2012, 07:36 AM
https://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/consumer/home_video/release/62908.html?CSRT=10560350614581982014

Press release states that Sony released a Blu-ray player with ability to upscale HD content to 4K. Remains to be seen if future firmware upgrade will enable playback of 4K Blu-ray content.

Doesn't state upgradability to 4k pkayback by the looks of it, unfortunately. I imagine they are waiting for the ps4, sets, h265 and or new medium disk, because h264 can handle it now, specs have gone from 60 or so Mb/s up for 4k comoressiin, 144 is a nice figure, but half that might look acceptable. We were sold bluray on it's multiple layered/future density, but how much of that have we seen, surely something is priven now tat can handle 60+MB/s.

Red really missed out with the redray red laser disc thing, because some years back a researcher devised a new me third of recording on DVD that could achieve 100GB on a normal player with a firmware update, or some such big number. I think it was by carrying the angle of the recording, or some such thing. If you look at it, a pretty pirating unfriendly disc, as you can playback but virtually need it to go through a stamping plant to record for now. You can also make bluray discs with pirated copies, refuse to play on it, under agreement, even on 4k BD. It would give Red room for the big picture, 8k in 100GB. I hope I'm not getting too ahead of myself again, but I would see the guy.

Wayne Morellini
04-27-2012, 07:46 AM
There I go again, forgetting. H265, gives you an extra 50% compression over h264, not much, but at how much more processing power? How dies that ricessing power in H265, or h264, at 4k compared Redray?

The most important question I am interested in is when will details of how the codec works and type, be announced, Stuart. I do some heavy design and love this stuff, you sit down and work on it and all is revealed, then some team a decade or two latter finally figures it out. So comoaring this is interesting, because not only is the compression range I'm considering huge, but the pridessing for that compression is small. I have been looking into techniques applicable to tens of thousands to one compression of data, I, at this stage, don't think there will be much better than that unless the data is conducive (a blank frame for example).

Stuart English
04-27-2012, 09:59 AM
Doesn't state upgradability to 4k pkayback by the looks of it, unfortunately. I imagine they are waiting for the ps4, sets, h265 and or new medium disk, because h264 can handle it now, specs have gone from 60 or so Mb/s up for 4k comoressiin, 144 is a nice figure, but half that might look acceptable. We were sold bluray on it's multiple layered/future density, but how much of that have we seen, surely something is priven now tat can handle 60+MB/s.

Red really missed out with the redray red laser disc thing, because some years back a researcher devised a new me third of recording on DVD that could achieve 100GB on a normal player with a firmware update, or some such big number. I think it was by carrying the angle of the recording, or some such thing. If you look at it, a pretty pirating unfriendly disc, as you can playback but virtually need it to go through a stamping plant to record for now. You can also make bluray discs with pirated copies, refuse to play on it, under agreement, even on 4k BD. It would give Red room for the big picture, 8k in 100GB. I hope I'm not getting too ahead of myself again, but I would see the guy.


Appreciate your insight and comments Wayne.

All I can say is we dropped optical disk from our plans as relying on delivery via physical media for content delivery is a recipe for economic disaster.

JD Holloway
04-27-2012, 10:52 AM
All I can say is we dropped optical disk from our plans as relying on delivery via physical media for content delivery is a recipe for economic disaster.

That being said, DVDs, BRs and CDs make great gifts. Its nice to hold something in your hand sometimes, with liner notes and art.
I do appreciate the economic model though. In an ideal world, both would be possible.
It should make a great companion to my Oppo BR player.

Wayne Morellini
04-28-2012, 06:17 AM
Appreciate your insight and comments Wayne.

All I can say is we dropped optical disk from our plans as relying on delivery via physical media for content delivery is a recipe for economic disaster.

Maybe yes, it is great for rentals, but people may be prepared to pay ten times more to add a physical copy of something good too their collection, versus renting or a down load version (note, I did not say the down load version was worth much more than a rental). So, the best of both worlds, I ussually rent or watch before I buy anything, so you could get two hits that way, the latter much better. It is simple, watch, then press here to order for $10 afterwards. There are ways to make money. (safe guards: new movies you don't want to sell yet, one month cooling off period, then you are charged and it ships, so addicts can decide to cull some of the 20-40 movies they have ordered). Could be used for older movies too, unless they hit a week or express order button. Because production and distribution is centralised, very low costs are possible ($5 postage for one or two disks, $10 postage for up to ten disks). Would that seem more profitable Stuart? Believe me, I have considered these things to set up distribution business models for my own product designs.

Geff Oliveira
04-30-2012, 10:49 AM
We'll be talking about workflow solutions later in the year. Needless to say that we want you guys to be able to encode content ;)


And of course, the encoder is free! Is?

Blair S. Paulsen
04-30-2012, 12:34 PM
There are many ways to package and distribute content, with IP delivery seemingly destined to be king. I just hope the next generation of compression technology and bandwidth apportionment practices makes image quality a higher priority than in the current environment. MPEG-2 is a decent codec but it was never designed for the level of compression commonly in use today where 1080HD signals are stuffed into 1 megabit feeds :puke:.

Whether its the new codec underpinning RedRay or something else, I see the next year or two as a critical time for rallying around a decent distribution codec for the next generation. What's the point of 4K to the home if its just going to get beat to crap by the distribution methodology?

Bandwidth is improving but for commercial success you need a codec/bit rate that is viable for the mass market in the US. Compression is a more complex calculus that faces significant pressures from powerful constituencies more focused on profit than presentation quality metrics. Bottom line - can distributors find a way to offer both choice and quality within the confines of current and near term infrastructure limitations? Do they care?

FWIW I think linear TV distribution might be more resistant to OTT competition if they hadn't tossed their quality advantage aside in pursuit of more channels. In any case, the bit starved images available via cable/DBS are so poor that I still buy physical media.

Many Blu-Ray titles use 19Mb/s> for 1080/24P presentations of well mastered content that looks substantially better than any other readily available source, most of which are provided at 4Mb/s or less. RedRay can't come soon enough...

Cheers - #19

Geff Oliveira
04-30-2012, 02:53 PM
More on this later, but:

- It's extremely robust

- It's very flexible

- It's designed to put the content owner in control.

- You don't have to use it if you don't want to.


DRM just the way it's supposed to be! Really nice

Geff Oliveira
04-30-2012, 03:00 PM
That being said, DVDs, BRs and CDs make great gifts. Its nice to hold something in your hand sometimes, with liner notes and art.
I do appreciate the economic model though. In an ideal world, both would be possible.
It should make a great companion to my Oppo BR player.

I think we are not talking about consumer products here... The way I see I imagine 4k content from Redray for reference and review and for theatrical projection, content delivery made mostly trough web in this case, and by ssd or some sort of memory media for the reference and review stuff.

Geff Oliveira
04-30-2012, 03:07 PM
There are many ways to package and distribute content, with IP delivery seemingly destined to be king. I just hope the next generation of compression technology and bandwidth apportionment practices makes image quality a higher priority than in the current environment. MPEG-2 is a decent codec but it was never designed for the level of compression commonly in use today where 1080HD signals are stuffed into 1 megabit feeds :puke:.

Whether its the new codec underpinning RedRay or something else, I see the next year or two as a critical time for rallying around a decent distribution codec for the next generation. What's the point of 4K to the home if its just going to get beat to crap by the distribution methodology?

Bandwidth is improving but for commercial success you need a codec/bit rate that is viable for the mass market in the US. Compression is a more complex calculus that faces significant pressures from powerful constituencies more focused on profit than presentation quality metrics. Bottom line - can distributors find a way to offer both choice and quality within the confines of current and near term infrastructure limitations? Do they care?

FWIW I think linear TV distribution might be more resistant to OTT competition if they hadn't tossed their quality advantage aside in pursuit of more channels. In any case, the bit starved images available via cable/DBS are so poor that I still buy physical media.

Many Blu-Ray titles use 19Mb/s> for 1080/24P presentations of well mastered content that looks substantially better than any other readily available source, most of which are provided at 4Mb/s or less. RedRay can't come soon enough...

Cheers - #19


For consumer internet delivery, as is today, h264 is the king for many factors. I've tried Google's open codec VP8, it's amazing, it holds the same quality of h264 using less data but it's compressor is not optimized to get the best of today's technology as the CUDA processors on a NVIDIA card.

For cinema... RedRay will be good having both Red codecs and DPX support.

Maik Müller
05-01-2012, 06:12 PM
I think we are not talking about consumer products here... The way I see I imagine 4k content from Redray for reference and review and for theatrical projection, content delivery made mostly trough web in this case, and by ssd or some sort of memory media for the reference and review stuff.
I see potential for REDRAY being adopted by consumers. RED has already set a price-tag that isn't too high for homecinema-enthusiasts. A projector with integrated player for under 10k, lots of people have paid more for less.

If RED can offer enough content for a fair price and starts shipping before Blu-4k launches then they'll succeed. Later, when both systems are available RED could set REDRAY above Blu-4k with better quality (hey, we all know how often DVDs and Blu-Rays have been f***ed up, this doesn't stop with Blu-4k), maybe special offers, earlier releases.

Imagine a movie like "The Hobbit" being released a month earlier for REDRAY. Mastered directly from digital masters, supervised by RED-experts... In it's full glorious 48fps/3D-version, in real 4k with higher color-depth than Blu-4k. Or "Prometheus" with some additional scenes, exclusively for REDRAY. :)

How about (more expensive) cinematic releases, i mean with a proper DRM-system they could offer movie downloads the same day when it starts in cinema.

I never adopted to current download-services, because they're simply crap when you compare them to releases on disc, quality-wise and mostly price-wise too. Today. buying a Blu-Ray offers a lot more than buying a download.

RED can change that and i'll happily jump in.

Brad Allen
05-21-2012, 05:35 PM
As 2K DCP servers (either as a DCI certified standalone device or just a PC with video card) are pretty inexpensive, if you use one of those as the input to your REDray projector you should be good to go for your described application.
Hi Stuart!

Been mulling over this thought for the past month or so and trying to think of a way of being able to serve a 4k DCP (either encrypted or not) to the REDray Projector. I can't seem to work out an "inexpensive" way of doing this, or perhaps our definitions of inexpensive differ! It seems to me that I would be up for about $5k for a PC solution + the software. I'm chasing a price on 4k DCP server, but am waiting to hear back on that and I don't think I should really expect it to be less than $5k?

I think there would be a real market for 4k encrypted DCP playback being built into the REDray player if it's something you guys would consider looking into? I know in my case it would make the purchase of a REDray Projector very economically justifiable. I can see the potential benefits both for indie-cinemas and many post production houses. I wouldn't even mind if there was an upgrade fee to enable it in order to cover the extra development costs.

Do you think this is something RED would consider looking into (even if it wasn't ready for launch)?

EDIT: Just heard back on the 4K server - looks like it would be about $14k here in Aus.

Stuart English
05-21-2012, 09:13 PM
Hi Stuart!

Been mulling over this thought for the past month or so and trying to think of a way of being able to serve a 4k DCP (either encrypted or not) to the REDray Projector. I can't seem to work out an "inexpensive" way of doing this, or perhaps our definitions of inexpensive differ! It seems to me that I would be up for about $5k for a PC solution + the software. I'm chasing a price on 4k DCP server, but am waiting to hear back on that and I don't think I should really expect it to be less than $5k?

I think there would be a real market for 4k encrypted DCP playback being built into the REDray player if it's something you guys would consider looking into? I know in my case it would make the purchase of a REDray Projector very economically justifiable. I can see the potential benefits both for indie-cinemas and many post production houses. I wouldn't even mind if there was an upgrade fee to enable it in order to cover the extra development costs.

Do you think this is something RED would consider looking into (even if it wasn't ready for launch)?

EDIT: Just heard back on the 4K server - looks like it would be about $14k here in Aus.

Yes that sounds about right - US $12 to 15K in an Integrated Media Module form factor, which probably does not support 4K Stereo and may not support 4K 60fps, and almost certainly does not support both. So assume $25 to $30K to support stereo 4K at 60 fps playback. Which illustrates just how compelling REDray and REDray Projector are when both of those support that capability as standard at their respective price points.

Brad Allen
05-21-2012, 09:33 PM
Yes that sounds about right - US $12 to 15K in an Integrated Media Module form factor, which probably does not support 4K Stereo and may not support 4K 60fps, and almost certainly does not support both. So assume $25 to $30K to support stereo 4K at 60 fps playback. Which illustrates just how compelling REDray and REDray Projector are when both of those support that capability as standard at their respective price points.
Absolutely - which goes to show just how fantastic it would be if the REDray player was able to playback DCP's in addition to the other formats it supports. It would represent exceptional value for money and would create a fantastic solution for post houses wanting a way to monitor DCP's they are sending out to cinemas - especially since the projector natively covers the full XYZ color space. I would love it if there was any chance of this happening.

roryhinds
05-21-2012, 10:20 PM
Yes DCP payback would be amazing. I hope RED are listening :-)

Tim Whitcomb
05-22-2012, 12:27 AM
Yes that sounds about right - US $12 to 15K in an Integrated Media Module form factor, which probably does not support 4K Stereo and may not support 4K 60fps, and almost certainly does not support both. So assume $25 to $30K to support stereo 4K at 60 fps playback. Which illustrates just how compelling REDray and REDray Projector are when both of those support that capability as standard at their respective price points.

Ive been sold since I signed up to Reduser on RedRay... so how goes production, ramp up, development... without giving away trade secrets
dates. I understand secrecy of sorts for cameras but the end game requires planning. are these breakthroughs needing months, or years more of development - how many times have you changed directions? :)

what i saw at NAB exceeded expectations and was introduced with a "we won't have the 4K unil the last day of NAB) and it still wowed.

Ive got many many thoughts on how to use this device for the new distribution of independent scripted entertainment.

thanks and congrats on how far you have come and to the path ahead. While delivering to the status quo and standards bodies
there exists additional small venue applications. Content will always be king but it sure will be nice to serve
up indies in stunning ultra high definition while eating chilean sea bass :)

cheers