AVID Workflow vs TVC reality?

[Jason Wingrove]

Im a long time Red fan & director wanting to use it on my next project but the workflow to get cutting on Avid is turning into somewhat of a deal killer, A little frustrating as ive been dying to use red since it was just a logo on red.com. Dragging stuffy agencies kicking and screaming into this century is not being helped by a naturally more complicated post process that isnt that schedule friendly.

The post company we're dealing with is quoting 24hrs for every hr of footage to “process” a “best light” grade, create an archival backup and provide standard def rushes on a hard drive prepped into avid bins etc and an SR tape. added to that we're shooting out of town where traditionally you simply Telecine the next morning at sparrows fart and go straight to the airport with your processed neg and a digi beta ready to cut at home. With the Red workflow getting on the plane with rushes and neg under you arm the next day knowing all is well seems to be out of the question.

Bear in mind agencies (fair enough) care about archives and backups, they like the stack of film cans or shelves of digi betas in the vault mentality so they can re edit projects later, they don't like the idea of hard drives and memory cards.

Anyone who recognises the issues here, I'd welcome the feedback... what do you do?

sorry for the long winded post
jas

[Cüneyt Kaya]

switch to fcp+
use LTO tapes for back up+
finish in a scratch suite with native .r3d files =

no trouble

forget the post company, this way its cheaper, faster and safer.

[Jason Wingrove]

thanks kberlin
FCP in the real world of TVC's/features is simply a figment of Apples (and somewhat red's) imagination. I've used the same editors for years, all of them big award winning guys, at least here in Sydney virtually every mainstream TVC/Feature guy is on Avid and FCp is usually used more in the backroom for presentation dvd's, compressor exports and 'only if i have to' location editing.

Bottom line is that weather we like it or not Avid is the edit system hollywood and madison avenue uses.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

thanks kberlin
FCP in the real world of TVC's/features is simply a figment of Apples (and somewhat red's) imagination. I've used the same editors for years, all of them big award winning guys, at least here in Sydney virtually every mainstream TVC/Feature guy is on Avid and FCp is usually used more in the backroom for presentation dvd's, compressor exports and 'only if i have to' location editing.

Bottom line is that weather we like it or not Avid is the edit system hollywood and madison avenue uses.

1st: you are right, avid is used by a lot of people.
ok, but as long as you are going to finish in a DI Suite, avid and fcp are offline editing tools.
The Cool VFX, Sound, Compositing stuff are made in other programs.

You will use it for editing, nothing more, nothing less.

As a filmmaker i look for the best tools i can use...and can afford.
If i decide my project needs a red one, the best tools are fcp and scratch.
and this combo works today.
So i decide to use this tools also for my project.
And a cool side effect is, that it is cheaper.

And what people think or say, about how professionel something is, i dont care, as long as it deliver the quality i want.
( btw. 2k RT editing is a damn cool thing)

The only argument i see is, that you are really wanting the editors you know.
"Everybody is using avid, because of that fcp is not professionel" is not an argument.

[Jason Wingrove]

Every production company has to rely on some kind of post facility or Lab to get them from shooting rushes to something hand to the editor for offline and something to put on the shelf till online / conform.

Worldwide, Labs should be (and probably are) looking forward to stop the slow decrease in business by adding overnight digital (Red and others) rushes processing to their services.

Then existing timeframes for film and tvcs can stay as they are, everyone has been use to working that way for years and digital should be fitting into that gap in the timeline not expanding it.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Every production company has to rely on some kind of post facility or Lab to get them from shooting rushes to something hand to the editor for offline and something to put on the shelf till online / conform.

Worldwide, Labs should be (and probably are) looking forward to stop the slow decrease in business by adding overnight digital (Red and others) rushes processing to their services.


Then existing timeframes for film and tvcs can stay as they are, everyone has been use to working that way for years and digital should be fitting into that gap in the timeline not expanding it.

RED ONE is in Beta, all you wish for avid will be enabled in the future, right now
fcp and sratch is the combo.

if you want to use avid smoothly, you got to have more patience.
with the fcp+scratch combo you dont have the overnight stuff, you have realtime, no processing working today.

so it depends on what you are looking for.

[Jason Wingrove]

Exactly, i don't base my choice of editors on what they use, I don't really care, its a creative partnership nurtured over years and the best guys for me where i work in the world just happen to use Avid.

But regardless of editing platform its still the same workflow for a mainstream TVC We edit in offline mode to be able to make lightning quick creative changes with a room full of clients, get approval, create an EDL, colour grade the footage then go into a professional online suite like flame inferno or smoke to finish.

[Jason Wingrove]

A director with patience :-)

thanks Kaya for your advice, I guess theyre working on it, im sure im not the only one who needs a faster workflow
cheers
jas

[Cüneyt Kaya]

talk to your editors...tell them you want to use a red...if we go right now
the avid way, we will have this problems, that takes this amount of time, and this are $$ the producer has to pay.
the fcp and scratch way has this advantage, this problems, whatever.

Maybe you should run a test with your editors. See how it works in the realworld...both workflows...

maybe its a challenge for your editors, too.


__________ but i understand that for a lot of people it is a problem not beeing able to integrate r3d. files into their existing workflow without problems.

[Bruce Allen]

talk to your editors...tell them you want to use a red...if we go right now
the avid way, we will have this problems, that takes this amount of time, and this are $$ the producer has to pay.
the fcp and scratch way has this advantage, this problems, whatever.

Maybe you should run a test with your editors. See how it works in the realworld...both workflows...

maybe its a challenge for your editors, too.

Kaya, if I were Jashunter's editors, I'd just tell him to shoot on 35mm and wait until Red / Avid get a working solution.

FCP is mistrusted for many reasons. For example, back around v.4 its time remapping had glitches which caused massive problems when you tried to online in a Quantel, etc. When you are paying $300/hr+ for the online, you don't want the Quantel guy to be spending his time eye matching. I have seen FCP burn people to the tune of $10K+ in online time. Enough to buy a very nice Avid Media Composer system.

If your editors are willing to take a chance and use FCP, go Red. If they are hesistant, shoot on film and use Red for your next project.

Don't try out a new workflow with an editor who is over their head with a new editing program.

Also don't compromise on the editor just so that you can use that shiny new Red toy.

Just my 2c. I love Red and worked on projects where we made (what we thought were) risky decisions to use it and FCP which ended up working without a hitch (Ringo Starr video, etc). But if your editor prefers Avid, hold back, the workflow's quite possibly not there. The last thing you want to do is get burned and then have people blaming you / Red when in a couple months all will be fine.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Cüneyt Kaya]

whats the problem with getting some .r3d footage from redrelay and do some workflow tests?

i think the truth is between what all of us said.

[Bruce Allen]

whats the problem with getting some .r3d footage from redrelay and do some workflow tests?

i think the truth is between what all of us said.

Totally agreed Kaya!

Hopefully Jashunter will have a nice commercial shot on Red to show us soon.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Cüneyt Kaya]

yeah jashunter, i wish you the best.

[Cam Crowley]

Jashunter

I can totally hear where you are coming from but my opinion of the industry is a bit different.

Those who went down the Avid route in their production pipeline locked themselves in to a very expensive way of doing things. Thats all well and good for the advertising industry - they like spending money and will do their upmost to spend every last bit of cash in the budget because they are recieving a percentage on every dollar spent. So post-prodn houses can spend lots of dosh on impressive looking equipment, nice looking foyer, hottie-office assistant, cumfy couches, big screen Plasmas, well stocked grog fridges, lolly jars etc etc because that's what ad people like - they love to see the big bucks being spent because it's all k'ching k'ching to them. That doesn't mean they know how to spend money wisely.

Now, over the last 12 years I have edited on just about all the NLE industry favorites - Avid MC, Media 100 (including having to use bloody Premier in the earlier days on that platform), and FCP. I have also done a lot of motion graphics work in AE providing inserts for programs being edited on these systems. As everything is based around QuickTime, as long as you have the required transcoder/codec - its all sweet.

Which brings me to Red and FCP. FCP is no lightweight editor. It's the best bang for buck in the industry and when you run it on one of the latest G5s and add a Blackmagic Multibridge or AJA Kona it pretty much rocks as hard as an Avid at a fraction of the price. FCP is not perfect - there are things still in that program that give me the shits that have been there since I first used it at beta stage in 1999. But then again Avid is not perfect and I wont even go into the trials and tribulations of Media 100. Red has done a brilliant job of fitting in with equipment that is available NOW and not at the top end of the scale. Anybody who is bitching and moaning that right now they cant edit on an AVID with Red shot footage is basically full of it. There are workarounds for this, and come the time postNAB08 when RED release their code to 3rd Parties, I believe solutions will be coming thick and fast for workflow. Right now its all a bit buggy I'll admit - but we really are in the early days with this. A few months from now and I think most of the teething issues will be gone.... and the people with AVIDs will still be telling everyone that you cant edit professionally with Final Cut just like they have been saying for years! In their own minds they are trying to justify what for many of them, was a way too expensive purchase in the first place.

Anyway - I'll have my RED within the next 2 months (fingers and toes crossed) so if you've got some TVCs to shoot and havent lost faith in RED, PM me and we'll have a chat.

Cheers

Cam

PS - this is very much an Australian perspective on the Australian industry before people in the US or Europe get offended by anything in the above. The unfortunate reality in Australia is that we wouldn't even have a film industry if it wasn't for the work generated by the advertising industry giving the crews, equipment houses, post hoses etc, enough money to stay in the game in between any feature film work they are lucky enough to get.

[Mark Toia]

I've used AVID for years, 10 in fact. had all the lastest and greatest versions, you name, Ive used it.
One day only 2 years ago a young junior editor ? tapes kid came into my office and started spouting off about FCP, on an on he went. Under pressure of looking like an old fuddy duddy that never advanced with the future i decided to see for myself. It took me about 2 to 3 weeks to get my head around it. next thing I was cutting jobs up with it, next thing I was cutting films with it, next thing you know my days are getting faster than ever before, work flow was getting faster and faster, next thing i've been cutting 1:1 not offline res, I'm editing the HD footage without the need to conform.
The master is made at the same time the edits approved. Life has changed for me. FACT is (coming from a AVID purist) FCP is faster, easier and far my user friendly than AVID. I take my whole project home to edit on my lappy in HD. 1920x1080 422 pro res. All I can say to all of my AVID counterparts.
GROW! with the future.
AVID is like Quark express, its had its day. Sorry lads. Ive seen the light, Im glad I opened my eyes.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I've used AVID for years, 10 in fact. had all the lastest and greatest versions, you name, Ive used it.
One day only 2 years ago a young junior editor ? tapes kid came into my office and started spouting off about FCP, on an on he went. Under pressure of looking like an old fuddy duddy that never advanced with the future i decided to see for myself. It took me about 2 to 3 weeks to get my head around it. next thing I was cutting jobs up with it, next thing I was cutting films with it, next thing you know my days are getting faster than ever before, work flow was getting faster and faster, next thing i've been cutting 1:1 not offline res, I'm editing the HD footage without the need to conform.
The master is made at the same time the edits approved. Life has changed for me. FACT is (coming from a AVID purist) FCP is faster, easier and far my user friendly than AVID. I take my whole project home to edit on my lappy in HD. 1920x1080 422 pro res. All I can say to all of my AVID counterparts.
GROW! with the future.
AVID is like Quark express, its had its day. Sorry lads. Ive seen the light, Im glad I opened my eyes.
wow what a first post.

[Chris Parker]

I agree with all posts here.

FCP is a viable alternative. It, and Scratch, are the most efficient way to finish RED footage right now.

BUT...many editors simply use AVID. It is their choice. I totally agree with Bruce. I would shoot 35mm and let my editor work within his comfort zone. If that's what he wants. I would also express my feelings to that editor that sooner, rather than later, I would like to shoot a project on RED, so when he has the time, would he be kind enough to look into a workable solution.

But, all these conversations will hopefully subside in the VERY near future as RED support comes to AVID, and an efficient workflow is achieved. Then all those high-end editors that get most of the work will stop their RED rants, and jump on board with the program.

It is useless to argue that the editors should just switch to FCP 'because it's better' or whatever. It's up to the editor. Maybe YOU feel that FCP is better, but maybe Jim down the street wants to cut on AVID till he dies. And maybe Joe (his longtime director/client) simply wants Jim to edit his spot, no matter what he cuts on.

If Jim then says RED ain't ready for AVID workflow, then Joe should shoot 35mm. Just like Bruce said.

[Jason Wingrove]

Thanks all, I love FCP myself, i use it for all my own projects, animatics etc but its a real mac/windows style debate that will no doubt rage one. and it also depends on what kind of work you are doing.

Having read a bit more around the forum today i see that Avid are indeed working on the ability to directly import red footage. but thats mid year if on track in the meantime Ill be working to come up with a better way of doing it as i want to work with this gear.

[Jason Wingrove]

Agree skipdivils, my first choice is always 35 but red suits this project, where i can roll stealthily and often without disrupting the flow and calmness of the location every 4 minutes for a reload, and can keep the images looking fantastic with full 35mm DOF that an F23 cant. Genesis is too expensive for some jobs not to mention bulky and a cable nightmare so Red it is.

Im just after a simple workflow to fit in with the current TVC way of doing things as outlined earlier. one that gets my editor a Digibeta to digitise from and a matching SR tape to grade from later. and it all happens by the next day. Ill keep anyone interested posted as i explore this more and keep pushing people out of their comfort zones:sarcasm:

[Bruce Allen]

Jashunter, sounds like you could get some kind of hybrid solution going using a FCP / RedCine station that outputs digi and HDCAM SR tapes from the Red footage? Surely that can be done in less than the time and cost it takes to develop the 35mm film and telecine? How much footage were you planning on shooting per day?

I know everyone will throw rocks at us for involving tape in the mix but this might be a nice way to transition to Red - the whole data-based workflow can come on the next project ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[conrad gaunt]

They have a valid point about long term digital storage, but they`ll come around when the "nano" drives arrive, and Discovery can store its entire collection on a dice sized disk.
As the saying goes "Only mad dogs and englishmen sit in the midday sun!", er, no, thats not the one, I mean "You can take a horse to a cafe, but you can`t make it drink a nice cup of tea".

[Lachlan Ward]

I stopped the Mac hate a little while ago. Although it must be sad, Apple are the most evil IT corporation on the planet. They're like Nazi Germany with less violence, but still similar! What I love about the workflow solution for Red is that for under half a mill you can get a huge massive big oversized killer Japanese robot. It wasn't that long ago that half a mill only got you a tamagotchi that you couldn't even color grade with.

Go mighty killer workflow robot go!

__________________
Don't you worry about workflow, let me worry about blank.

[I Bloom]

Bear in mind agencies (fair enough) care about archives and backups, they like the stack of film cans or shelves of digi betas in the vault mentality so they can re edit projects later, they don't like the idea of hard drives and memory cards.

jas

Ok,

While I agree that FCP is the way to go and well... I was walking away from the Apple store on Fifth Avenue, next to central park, with my Final Cut 6 Upgrade box in my hands a few months ago and a commercial editor literally got off his bike to stop and tell me I was making a mistake and that he cuts for such and such huge account and no real editor uses FCP.... True story.

I understand... Avid has a different kind of interface that leads to a different style of editing, just like shooting with primes instead of zooms changes how you place the camera. Fine. Don't switch from Avid and don't listen to anyone who tells you that Final Cut is better. That is none of their business. You're not a fuddy duddy because you cut on Avid.

But at the same time, adapt to tapeless workflow and Red workflow or perish like the Diplodocus.

Now get ready for a huge revelation. Nobody cuts for real today, on Redcode proxies in FCP. We downconvert them to ProRes Proxies and cut them on ProRes timelines. Downconverting proxies is easy and can be done on set faster than you can shoot, you can even incorporate onelight style CC if you are smart with RedAlert or diligent about your in camera metadata.

Cutting Redcode on a Prores timeline, or Redcode on a Redcode timeline is well... a world of hurt... today.

So.... find a way to downconvert your Redcode Proxies to DNxHD or find another quicktime exportable format that Avid can play nice with, bring that proxie footage into Avid and cut away... and then... export an EDL from AVID and conform your Redcode in Scratch. It's beautiful don't let anyone tell you that Scratch can't play with the big boys. (I know a guy in New York that can make that happen for you. Hint: his first name is Off).

Or if you can't do Scratch wait and there are some tools coming that will let you online from AVID through REDCINE and back or into another high end grading system. They are right around the corner.

MichaelP from Avid is on here every day, (check his awesome Avatar;)

In the mean time, don't wait to start climbing this learning curve. Oh and it's called LTO-3 and people who fear hard drives pull it out of the cartridges and wrap it around themselves for protection.

IBloom

[Dylan Reeve]

The post company we're dealing with is quoting 24hrs for every hr of footage to “process” a “best light” grade, create an archival backup and provide standard def rushes on a hard drive prepped into avid bins etc and an SR tape. added to that we're shooting out of town where traditionally you simply Telecine the next morning at sparrows fart and go straight to the airport with your processed neg and a digi beta ready to cut at home. With the Red workflow getting on the plane with rushes and neg under you arm the next day knowing all is well seems to be out of the question.

I know that Images Post in Auckland has a fairly solid workflow to Avid for clients, and I'm pretty certain they can do it in much better time than that. You could probably pop someone of a flight to Auckland with the media, and a harddrive and have them back sooner and cheaper than what you're talking about there...

The theory is fairly simple, but the main thing is practice. As I haven't had any, I can't really offer anything useful in terms of real workflow for you - but I understand your situation...

Now as for the FCP thing... I certainly won't deny that FCP has some great features and some good grunt, but it has some big failings in some pretty major areas... Metadata and Media Management, Ingest and Output functions, Trimming... There are quite a few things that I consider the 'serious' stuff that I find FCP really fails on. Avid isn't going anywhere anytime too soon, hopefully they'l pull their head out soon, and give their product line a bit of a kick, but in general I think in most cases Avid is a faster and more efficient editing tool. When it comes to finishing, there are some serious arguments in favour of FCP over Avid's offerings, but for serious cutting I still think Avid holds the lead, and will continue to do so.

In NZ (and Australia too I assume) Avid is still the standard, FCP suites have found their way into some facilities, but they tend to live in Cinetape and serve a very utilitarian purpose. That may change, but for the moment here we need to be able to cut on Avid if we want to cut something serious.

[Hans von Sonntag]

In NZ (and Australia too I assume) Avid is still the standard, FCP suites have found their way into some facilities, but they tend to live in Cinetape and serve a very utilitarian purpose. That may change, but for the moment here we need to be able to cut on Avid if we want to cut something serious.


Same in Germany. The classic TVC post boutiques in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg etc. are based on Avid and FFF / Quantel. FCP is a niche editor for some funky HD stuff nobody really cares about. ALL TVC stuff is PAL, NONE is HD. Shooting with F 900R / F 23 is coming but traditionally hated because it's video. Donwconverting 1080p to 576p is often done with the in-build hardware converter of the tape machine. Quality gets very poor with this kind on down convert but people say: Your bad, shoot 35mm.

Actually they are right. If you consider all the downsides and costs that arise due to a bad workflow shooting 35mm is not more expensive and much safer.

Implementing RED in such a conservative environment will be a challenge.

Hans

PS: And if any one suggests: Make it by your self with FCP (a bargain, have it since V1.1) please remind that achival, versioning and deliveries is key in this industry and the main asset of the obove mentioned post boutiques.

[Jason Wingrove]

Hans, the F23, F900, genesis are all catching on here quite strongly, although most stuff is still 35, its really starting to get a lot of use and many DP's here (all with significant film feature credits) are happy to dabble and enjoy the challenge, my experiences with all of the above have been generally good, with well chosen locations etc you can get some great images. I generally choose the right tool for the job, shooting digital only where theres a reason for it but its slowly becoming mainstream. There's at least 2 or 3 features shooting here and in NZ on the red as we speak and Superman returns was shot here on genesis.

Dylan
images are the ones looking at the job for us and at present looking at improving turnaround times. They seem to have a great handle on workflow for getting drives and bins prepped for Avid or FCP until Avid release whatever update they're going to do later this year.

I know this is really the bleeding edge so i should be patient, but just thought there might be a better way than a full day prep per hr of ftg but there's a lot of work going on there to prep things really. Attached is their simple workflow diagram, which was emailed to us so hopefully they wont mind as im sure theyre a regular here :sarcasm:

[M Most]

The post company we're dealing with is quoting 24hrs for every hr of footage to “process” a “best light” grade, create an archival backup and provide standard def rushes on a hard drive prepped into avid bins etc and an SR

Yes, that's about right. However, you don't necessarily need a full quality debayer and an SR master to begin offline editing - unless you're creating a new master with new time codes on tape. Since the original time code and original reel number are embedded in the R3d files, one could consider an alternate workflow tailored to the needs of the offline/online approach. For instance, a quick debayer (say, "standard" quality as opposed to "full") takes much less time (and looks essentially identical to full, at least on most video monitors), so theoretically one could convert all of the footage for offline - staying in the file based world - using this approach. While offline editorial is taking place, the "full" version could be processed and later played out to SR tape using the original time codes (there are a number of ways to do this). True, this requires two processing passes, and a longer total turnaround for the post facility, but it's much friendlier to the needs of the overall post process for these type of projects. The other facility alternative, of course, is multiple processing stations (basically a render farm approach), but a facility has to be doing a lot of Red work to justify this.

[M Most]

Jashunter, sounds like you could get some kind of hybrid solution going using a FCP / RedCine station that outputs digi and HDCAM SR tapes from the Red footage? Surely that can be done in less than the time and cost it takes to develop the 35mm film and telecine?

Not if you're using Full quality debayer. Not even close, especially if you're printing 2 hours of footage (quite common in both narrative and commercial work these days).

[Bruce Allen]

Not if you're using Full quality debayer. Not even close, especially if you're printing 2 hours of footage (quite common in both narrative and commercial work these days).

1. What if he had a bunch of PCs unning RedCine, feeding the FCP output station?

2. If he is getting two hours of footage per day, what if he doesn't do full quality debayer for the digibeta offline? How about if the full-quality HDCAM SR version could be delivered a little later?

3. What was your price estimate for the telecine, again?

EDIT: oh, you also raised #2 as a point. Cool. Thought we were in more agreement...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[M Most]

1. What if he had a bunch of PCs unning RedCine, feeding the FCP output station?

2. If he is getting two hours of footage per day, what if he doesn't do full quality debayer for the digibeta offline? How about if the full-quality HDCAM SR version could be delivered a little later?

3. What was your price estimate for the telecine, again?

EDIT: oh, you also raised #2 as a point. Cool. Thought we were in more agreement...


1 and 2: Already asked and answered.

3. Irrelevant. Not a part of this discussion. But, it should be kept in mind that processing time is not free. If it's going to take 20 hours, that's a lot of processing time that someone has to pay for. And that doesn't even include playing it out to SR tape, the tape stock, or the cost of the machine itself. The cost of putting together a render farm, the storage required, possible SAN licenses, and render management software if it is needed is not free, either. So one way or another, there are continuing costs involved, whether you're processing film or processing Red files.

[Bruce Allen]

Mmost, I totally agree with every point you make.

I originally recommended for Jashunter to consider shooting film instead.

But I am playing devil's advocate here, based on my good experience with Red on the Ringo video.

We were able to transcode everything to ProRes over two days... on a single iMac. That wasn't full quality debayer, but it was good enough for the CBS Daily Show to broadcast the whole thing every day for a week. We have seen the full HD version projected and it looks good. I think it would compete with a lot of HD programming we have seen originated from other cameras.

I know film telecines aren't that expensive. The last time I was at R!OT was for a $10,000 music video - they squeezed us in at midnight and did a great job within our budget.

But I think your comparisons are a little unfair. Of course you need an HDCAM SR deck, and tape stock, and operator time, but you'd need that for a telecine too.

I don't understand why a telecine house can't buy say 20 fast PCs for $1000 each (my $450 "Craigslist special" PC runs RedCine quite nicely), get an intern to render baby-sit, put the files on their SAN which already exists, do a one-light, then write it out to tape on the HDCAM SR deck they already have - and offer Red footage "processing" at competitive cost, time and quality to a telecine?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Anthony Gratl]

I don't understand why a telecine house can't buy say 20 fast PCs for $1000 each (my $450 "Craigslist special" PC runs RedCine quite nicely), get an intern to render baby-sit, put the files on their SAN which already exists, do a one-light, then write it out to tape on the HDCAM SR deck they already have - and offer Red footage "processing" at competitive cost, time and quality to a telecine?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com


well...uh....er...it's complicated.....because....and uh....then we'd have to....well uh the super deluxe espresso machine ain't cheap...er...not make as much money....uhhmmm...render intern huh.....could be a problem....dammit bruce....you make way too much sense.

[M Most]

I don't understand why a telecine house can't buy say 20 fast PCs for $1000 each (my $450 "Craigslist special" PC runs RedCine quite nicely), get an intern to render baby-sit, put the files on their SAN which already exists, do a one-light, then write it out to tape on the HDCAM SR deck they already have - and offer Red footage "processing" at competitive cost, time and quality to a telecine?


That could be done. However, as I said before, you'd have to see enough return in it - in other words, be working with enough Red footage - to justify that kind of expense and trouble. For one thing, the SAN licenses for that many CPU's would likely cost considerably more than the blades themselves. And with the size of the files involved, using Ethernet would probably slow down the process considerably, so you're talking about a lot more than $20K for a high performance solution, although there are workarounds. But one has to keep in mind that there needs to be enough business from sensibly budgeted projects (in other words, the ones that would use facility services) being shot on Red to justify a solution that only applies to material shot with Red cameras. At this point in time, the need is unclear. But ask me again in about 6 months.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans, the F23, F900, genesis are all catching on here quite strongly, although most stuff is still 35, its really starting to get a lot of use and many DP's here (all with significant film feature credits) are happy to dabble and enjoy the challenge, my experiences with all of the above have been generally good, with well chosen locations etc you can get some great images. I generally choose the right tool for the job, shooting digital only where theres a reason for it but its slowly becoming mainstream. There's at least 2 or 3 features shooting here and in NZ on the red as we speak and Superman returns was shot here on genesis.:

Jashunter,

DOPs tend to be more experimental than post houses. Digital isn't bad at all and the cameras you mentioned are far from "video". It's just that you do not get supported by the posthouses. Posthouses tend to hate directors especially if they want a change the workflow. This is what they say:

1. We've done always this way.

2. See above.

3. Nice idea but this is going to be too expensive.

4. We don't take any responsibilty.

As Michael Most mentioned above: Debayering in a acceptable turn around is not cheap (so is lab). Its for the indies and the brave to dig into this.

Hans (who is brave in this regard)

[Bruce Allen]

But ask me again in about 6 months.

Sounds good, Mr. Most, will do! So many good points raised here, thank you.

Hopefully someone will put together some Ghetto Farm tests and give us some speed / cost / quality comparisons for the indie crowd between:
1. PC-based Ethernet RedCine farm -> CineForm -> Premiere -> tape
2. PC / MAC -based Ethernet RedCine farm -> DNxHD -> Avid -> tape
3. MAC-based Ethernet RedCine farm -> ProRes -> FCP -> tape

...and a high-end uncompressed SAN system? How much speed and quality do you gain for the (presumably high) increase in gear cost? Of course, there would be labor savings (and frustration savings too ;)

I guess it's a bit of a moving target at the moment, seeing as CineForm's outputter just got temporarily deep-sixed by whatever Faustian contract Red had to sign in order to deliver us their magic wonders, and that RedCine is still in a state of development? Does it even output timecode in its QT files yet?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Dylan Reeve]

For what it's worth, I just tested with some RED footage...

In Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.8 on OS X 10.4.11, with the RED QT codec installed, I can import the RED proxy QT Reference files directly into Avid quite easily. Obviously they are only SD res (the 'H' 1k file on our samples is 1024x576, or PAL 16:9 Square Pix).

Importing a 1'50" clip to DV 420 took a bit under three minutes on our Octo-core 3GHz machine. To other resolutions may be quicker.

I believe this capability combined with the MetaCheat ALE utility makes it fairly simple to offline RED footage in Avid anyway. We'd probably make the media and bins on the Mac and then edit on our other Avid suite.

[Jabez Olssen]

For what it's worth, I just tested with some RED footage...

In Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.8 on OS X 10.4.11, with the RED QT codec installed, I can import the RED proxy QT Reference files directly into Avid quite easily. Obviously they are only SD res (the 'H' 1k file on our samples is 1024x576, or PAL 16:9 Square Pix).

Importing a 1'50" clip to DV 420 took a bit under three minutes on our Octo-core 3GHz machine. To other resolutions may be quicker.

I believe this capability combined with the MetaCheat ALE utility makes it fairly simple to offline RED footage in Avid anyway. We'd probably make the media and bins on the Mac and then edit on our other Avid suite.

Yes exactly, although the news is even better because the 'H' quality quicktimes are actually 2048x1024, so they are more than enough res for importing into HD in the Avid. (The 'M' quality ones are 1024x512). And if you're editing in SD then the 'P' quality ones are fine, and they import in just over 2:1 realtime (on an Octo core Mac).

If you are just offline editing in the Avid (and plan to online later in something else) then all this talk of doing a proper debayer or going via HDCAM-SR seems strange to me. Just edit in an Avid 1080p HD project, import the 'M' quality quicktimes (they look great) and you can get rushes into the Avid much quicker than the 24:1 timeframe that the original poster on this thread was quoted. I time it at about 4or5:1 realtime... And here's the thing... that is assuming that the lab only has one mac to import rushes on. If they get a second one (plus another copy of Avid Xpress) then the time halves.

In fact, as I said, if you edit in SD its almost 2:1 already (although I will probably have to add the NTSC timecode fix to metacheater to make that work... but I recommend all Avid offlining be done in DNxHD36 anyway :)

Processing footage via RedCine just for the offline rushes is not the smart way to go at the moment. Instead, use RedAlert to instantly make QT wrappers, make an ALE of the metadata and import them into the Avid. It is faster than a 35mm film telecine workflow. All this talk of Red and Avid not being possible just yet seems crazy to me, when a couple of Macs with Xpress Pro makes it very quick. Obviously its not ideal, or suited to really low budget projects (but they would probably be better off with FCP anyway), but for bigger features, and high end commercials, there is a fine and fast workflow available right now.

[Jason Wingrove]

Both editors I work with here in Syd are now onto it big time and keen to get it happening, everyone is all for a SIMPLE solution as there's not just this job but research for an upcoming mainstream feature on Red to evolve as well.

Im confident I'll get a solution soon and of course when we get to the other side of this job in a couple of weeks I'll feedback what we learnt along the way. The idea really is to avoid tape whilst ensuring we're well and truly covered with not only backups but that footage is easily accessed by others in the future without having to to resort to alchemy or the dark arts.

[Jason Wingrove]

well said Cogito, we're looking in that direction too.
j

[M Most]

Im confident I'll get a solution soon and of course when we get to the other side of this job in a couple of weeks I'll feedback what we learnt along the way. The idea really is to avoid tape whilst ensuring we're well and truly covered with not only backups but that footage is easily accessed by others in the future without having to to resort to alchemy or the dark arts.

In my experience, the biggest hurdle, and one that has yet to be overcome, is the clients' perception that dailies must represent final release quality if the program is being shot on an electronic format - when in fact, that is never the case with film, and it's never been an issue. My feeling is that this all started because the first recent use of electronic capture in high end production was with video cameras, primarily the F900, in which what you see at the time of shooting needed to be fairly close to what you wanted, because the latitude is limited and the ability to alter the resulting footage is also limited due to both the nature of 4:2:2 video and the amount of compression used and its effects. On the one hand, this provides a nice workflow because the look of the images is never in question. On the other hand, on a professional production, there should be enough confidence in the director of photography that the look of a daily videocassette shouldn't be an issue. With a raw capture like that of Red, the look of the dailies is only somewhat important (there is more latitude and better color depth, so there is more flexibility), but the quality of the offline image is not - because the intent is to go back to the original and do high quality processing for the final deliverables, much as you do with film. So the notion that the online is created from the offline, which is the common workflow with HD video capture and most network television post production, is not applicable.

But good luck in trying to get people to understand that.

[Chris Swartz]

This is all fine and dandy for a mac workflow, but until we get a windows QT codec, us PC guys are stuck in a much slower workflow. I guess that is one of the nice things about Avid. Mac or PC, it doesn't matter, it works for both. I guess a mac rental is not out of the question to process and then bring the footage over to my PC. This is turning out to be a very resourceful thread.


Chris

[Dylan Reeve]

In my experience, the biggest hurdle, and one that has yet to be overcome, is the clients' perception that dailies must represent final release quality [...] But good luck in trying to get people to understand that.

I think you're very right with that.

The best option, I guess, is to take the producer/director into post the first day after shooting - give them the quick dailies to look at and then take a shot right through RedCine so they can see that there is a lot of scope there and they needn't feel too constrained by the quick conversion for offline/dailies.

In their minds, if they've ever worked with film, they know this is the way it works - it's identical to the film process really. They just need to be shown that with RED it's not always going to be WYSIWYG, that the flexibility exists there for finishing. But I think that probably has to be demonstrated for people to really feel comfortable in it.


This is all fine and dandy for a mac workflow, but until we get a windows QT codec, us PC guys are stuck in a much slower workflow. I guess that is one of the nice things about Avid. Mac or PC, it doesn't matter, it works for both. I guess a mac rental is not out of the question to process and then bring the footage over to my PC. This is turning out to be a very resourceful thread.

It might be more cost-effective to find a friendly post house that can make the Avid media for you. Once it's Avid media, of course, it will play on just about any Avid, Mac or PC. Brilliant.

[Jason Wingrove]

It might be more cost-effective to find a friendly post house that can make the Avid media for you. Once it's Avid media, of course, it will play on just about any Avid, Mac or PC. Brilliant.
Yes we have a post house that can do this, prep into Avid bins on a drive (see much earlier posts) its just that it was a bit time prohibitive, one day per hour of footage, but at this stage its the old production triangle, GOOD, FAST, CHEAP... choose two!

the trick in getting my clients (and production) along for the ride is to get a workflow that doesnt 'rock the boat' ideally one day it will seamlessly fit into the current workflow and timeline so no one is the wiser.

[Dylan Reeve]

Fly to my place in Auckland, I'm fairly sure I could turn it around quicker than that.

Of course, I'm only really talking about making Avid offline media from the QT proxy files, not a properly one light grade to SR, which would certainly complicate the process (especially given I don't have an SR deck).

[Chris Swartz]

What you don't have an SR deck? Jeez I thought everyone had an SR deck. I mean I have 3 with an extra one for parts. Maybe I can ship you one. How can you even run a business without and SR deck? HA!

Chris

[Dylan Reeve]

What you don't have an SR deck? Jeez I thought everyone had an SR deck. I mean I have 3 with an extra one for parts. Maybe I can ship you one. How can you even run a business without and SR deck? HA!

Chris

Yeah, I know, it's practically impossible indeeed. I mean just about every camera on the market shoots on SR these days. We just get all the SR dubbed down to MII and work from that.

I'm not even sure the Avid/1 or Avid Cinema systems support SR!

[Jason Wingrove]

we will be shooting there.... and your the Solidstore guy!

must catch up when im down :-)

[Brenton]

I've only just seen this thread and have a couple of points to make that appear to have been missed (OR I missed them as I skimmed through the thread... heh)

1. the times initially quoted by the post house sound like they're processing ALL the footage to HD... this is IMHO a waste of time. You wouldn't 2k scan all your 35mm rushes, why process material you're not going to use.

2. in my experience transcoding the R3D files into an avid is approx 5:1. Transcoding R3D to 2K/HD is approx 20:1. This, to me, reinforces that the post house is processing all the footage.

In fact now that I think on it (and reread some posts), this is sounding suspiciously like a job that my producer asked me about for an Australian job a while ago... did you want a quote for transferring 9hrs of R3D to HDSR?

My understanding of the discussions with her about that job, was that the agency/prodco wanted to walk away with HD masters as they were uncomfortable/unfamiliar with our recommended DI workflow (R3D>Avid>RedCine>DPX) and wanted a more traditional tape based approach.

Yes we could throw more machines at it and reduce the total transfer time, but budget wise your still paying for the same amount of processing time.

Jas, please feel free to call me if this was your job and we were that post house :biggrin:

Regards

Brenton
brenton.c@imagesandsound.co.nz
+649 309 8026

[Dylan Reeve]

Don't listen to Brenton - he can do it much quicker! Tell him you want it in an hour, he'll find a way!!

Tell him Dylan said so! :)

[Jason Wingrove]

Brenton That sounds like us although i think 9hrs was a bit overzealous :huh:

I'll call you in a couple of days and sort things out face to face.

Im sure many of us can relate to this but most of the battle is with the 'powers that be' making them feel comfortable that they have the same level of security that they're used to with a normal film shoot (out of town or not) You walk away knowing rushes are good and with processed neg or a master tape under you arm. As with all these pre shoot jitters, its a battle you have to fight in pre only and as soon as your underway its all forgotten!

It only a battle for a while, till EVERYTHING is shot on RED sometime late 2008 :-)

jas

[Dylan Reeve]

I think people (clients) will find the feeling of security with RED not as bad as they imagine.

It shouldn't be too difficult to include a basic dailies output (either as QT files or similar, or on some well-understood SD format) in the workflow process of taking files into Avid.

It's not an HDSR tape, but that's not necessary. The only reason you'd scan all your film as HD is because you need the raw footage as HD to be able to edit HD (unless you want to reconform later) - but with RED that's obviously not needed - the camera footage is already full high res ready to go, it doesn't need that extra step.

Things will obviously get easier, but it's not all that hard now - and I think your clients will probably be pleasantly surprised.

For what it's worth, you'd be in safe hands with Brenton at Images, he's probably got more RED post experience that anyone else in NZ - and he's a pretty on to it guy, although he needs a haircut if he really wants to go far.

[Jason Wingrove]

Thanks. yes im sure it will work out, will suggest the haircut :-)

The SR is just the subconscious equivalent of cans under your arm as we generally conform and grade off SR here in Syd on Davinci Resolve rather than Telecine neg anymore.

But im sure we will work out a better system than that as we get closer

[MichaelP]

The file based workflow will work its way out over time as the format and workflows become better understood - Everyone is working to provide better solutions - the process will involve milestones from ALE wrapped QuickTime to start, to direct MXF wrapped DNxHD essence for efficiency.

Michael

[Troy Smith]

HI all,

Wondering if anyone can help me out, going to shoot a project with red, not sure if we are shooting 4k or 2k yet, so for now lets just say its 4k, I want to edit in avid, at 1920 by 1080 with DNXHD 185 X codec, I'm on a pc, i figure I will take my r3d files into redcine and export them scaled to 1920 by 1080 as qt dnxhd codec, then import those into avid and i'm all good.

Can I ask if I'm missing anything here, will what i'm saying work?

The final delivery will be no greater then 1920 1080, and not for big screen.

Any input greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Stricko

[Cüneyt Kaya]

test it. you can have 4k or 2k footage @ redrelay and redcine @ red.com/support

[Brenton]

...will suggest the haircut :-)

You won't be the first or the last... :)

Jas, please do call & come in for a chat, these are crazy/exciting times for RED workflow and it's always good to bounce ideas of people and see how others are using it.

Regards

B