Best software to use with RED?

[Zack Birlew]

Hey guys, just thought I'd make a fun thread about what software would thoeretically work really well with the RED once it's released. If this thread goes on for a while, it could be updated with whatever NAB announcements there are to further the list.

Obviously there's some software that's just common sense, but there's also new products and little lesser known gems here and there that should be given mention. I'm talking everything from plug-ins to full software suites at any price point for various categories. Now, I won't list everything myself (where's the fun in that?), I'll only list what I know I could personally be using.

So, here we go!

In regards to - Graphics/Effects/Greenscreen

Shake
Serious Magic Ultra Key
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Photoshop CS3

In regards to - Editing

Final Cut Studio
Adobe Premiere Pro 3 (or whatever the next release is called)
Avid Media Composer

In regards to - 3D modeling

Maya
3DS Max
Cinema 4D
Houdini

In regards to - Sound

Logic Pro
Sonic Fire Pro 4

In regards to - Digital Intermediate

Scratch

In regards to - Plug-ins

Magic Bullet Suite 2007
FXhome's VisionLab Studio
VideoCopilot.net AE effects stuff
Wondertouch particleIllusion 3
Genarts Sapphire Plug-ins

By the way, feel free to add any categories that I missed or to seperate things if you wish.

[Manfred Lopez]

I personaly would substitute Nuendo for Logic Pro. Logic Pro is a great program, but if you are taking everything to the high-end, then Nuendo is the way to go. It´s one of those products that lets you achieve great things in a better way for far less money than the established product, and which many in the establishment hate because they feel threatened... just like with Red.


http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/6663.html

http://www.steinberg.net/540+M52087573ab0.html?&cHash=5f3b913979&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=24&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=170

[Blaine Golden]

And I'm sure Graeme will have some good plug-ins at Nattress.com (http://nattress.com/)

[Michael Schrengohst]

Yes, I am sure Graeme will have a head-start on the other 3rd party developers.

[Steve Sherrick]

Nuendo is a nice DAW, but can't discount Pro Tools dominence at the moment. I have both, so I'm not saying Nuendo won't make some ground. There are some things Pro Tools still does better, and some things Nuendo has an advantage. I think competition is good. These companies get pretty fat and happy when they have all of the marketshare, but competition sometimes leads to new features and better prices for us.

Steve

[Graeme Nattress]

Plugins - way too busy for that. I'm in the middle of R&D for crazy things. Wendy's just put out a whole load of new ones (and some updated old ones) called Big BoX Of Tricks though. There's some fun stuff in there. But the nice thing with RED is you will never again need to chroma upsample :-)

Graeme

[Poi Boy]

with RED is you will never again need to chroma upsample :-)

Graeme

gosh no kidding! Somehow I thought you might be too busy for plugins. I'm hoping that you will make a bunddle by staying at RED and continuing to make "crazy things" for RED 1, 2 or 360.
Aloha
-A

[Michael Schrengohst]

Plugins - way too busy for that. I'm in the middle of R&D for crazy things. Wendy's just put out a whole load of new ones (and some updated old ones) called Big BoX Of Tricks though. There's some fun stuff in there. But the nice thing with RED is you will never again need to chroma upsample :-)

Graeme

Yes I have them....some useful things...Thanks

[Hrvoje Simic]

I believe Serious Magic was acquired by Adobe.

[Curran Giddens]

http://www.d2software.com/

I will be seriously considering D2's Nuke if Shake's replacement isn't up to par.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Same here. I played with a demo of Nuke about a year ago ... It's pretty sweet. (but I opted for shake as it was cheaper and fit all my needs. I guess we'll see what Apple has in store, but I'm not so sure we'll see a new compositing application. I think it far more likely that we'll see a Shake 5 in a few months after Apple has the new FCS running smoothly on Leopard. Shake 5 will involve a major re-write of the application. That's my feeling...

[Albert Cheng]

There is no Shake 5 as that application has been EOL'd. Rather, it is being re-written from the ground up and will be taking advantage of the latest hardware acceleration capabilities available. Referred to as "Phenomenon", it is slated for a 2008 release.

I just hope that it maintains it's pro-app qualities and doesn't get diluted for mass market appeal.

I've never used Nuke but I also use Fusion on the PC and it's a very nice compositor.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, thanks for that... I've heard various comments that Shake has been discontinued, but other conflicting info as well.

I have DFX+ on the PC (Fusion Lite or Fusion Crippled is the appropriate name). Anyway, I opted for shake over Fusion because I was shifting to FCP anyway and it was priced more attractively. IMO, Eyeon's pricing of Fusion and its modules is a little skewed. It fits well with a large studio model, but is hard on the small guys, almost feels as if they're up-selling all the extra modules. Or at least that's the way it was last time I looked.

[Rogelio Salinas]

Graeme. Are you going to be creating any new Film Effects to work with RED one footage?

[Graeme Nattress]

RED doesn't need any Film Effects :-)

[Gregory Karydis]

I am using Digital Fusion and I can handle 4k + footage easily.
Also, from ym experience with Houdini you can do compositing on it as well with spectacullar results :)

[Antoine Baumann]

For compositing, any application that handle at least 4k, should be fine.
Nuke and Digital Fusion are the best in my opinion, as there won't be a Shake 5.... but Shake (even 3.5) would be a very good tools anyway.
I will also look to an application that is compatible with AJA and BMD card.

For editing, well, any application that handle at least 4k and qt codecs. I will also look to an application that is compatible with AJA and BMD card.

For 3D, I do not think there is any link to the camera, but anyway we use Blender, and it is really powerfull and reliable (it has compositing module and sequencer)

For tracking, we are using Icarus, as long as it is non commercial project. But the Pixel Farm has now some cheap tracking soft call pfHoe (not as powerfull as Icarus....)

For sound, we have Merging technologies Pyramix Virtual Studio, which is swiss product (we are based in switzerland:-)

For DI, I will definitely looked to Apple Final Touch (if they release it). But I am also interested in Scratch.

Sure I forgot tons of good soft,
antoine.

[Jim Arthurs]

I am using Digital Fusion and I can handle 4k + footage easily.
Also, from ym experience with Houdini you can do compositing on it as well with spectacullar results :)

The first fully HD project I ever did was cut entirely inside FusionHD 3.0, using the RealityHD, which was DPS's popular Reality boardset, but equipped with the actual Sony HDCam software codec.... it could input and output native HDCam over its SDI in/outs just like you handle DV or DVCPRO over firewire!

I was beta testing it at the time... I think they only put out a total of 10 or 15 of them. A brilliant idea, but doomed to failure because it needed a fully optioned out HDCam deck to view the footage on a monitor, just like you'd use a DV deck or camera to throw up the image to your TV. I still have it and use the SD side of it every day.

I've had Fusion since the DOS days and love the team at Eyeon. Heck, they named the spill settings in the Ultra Keyer after some problematic blue screen footage I'd provided them to help track down some issues... rare, medium and well done refer to some cows we shot in a studio that had issues with the mattes...

[dave_garcia]

I use Combustion for almost all my compositing and motion graphics. It's a very nice peice of software.

[Nik Manning]

You could probably finish in apple motion as it handles 4k files. Add particle effects color correct, text effects, etc. It would probably be the closest to realtime performance you can get.
http://www.motionsmarts.com/tutorials/nutsandbolts/sizematters.html

[SalaTar]

Jim Arthurs,
You have seen what IVS is doing for the DPS/Leitch/Harris Boards Reality/Q/altitude?

http://www.ivs.it/indexEng.htm

Hes hard to understand but I think hes (Roberto) working on the software to open up the hidden features of old boards...(HD being one of them)
and continuing support for altitude by opening it up to 2k (Viper, Dalsa, Red, and SI-2K in his own words) by Nab

[Holosynthetic]

In regards to - 3D modeling

Houdini

If your going to use Houdini, then you might as well spend a little more for Pixar's Renderman Server for the best possible render.

the cost of Houdini and Renderman together is in the $11,500 ballpark.

Not exactly something you can just pick up and learn over the weekend either

Another no-brainer in the 3D department is VUE 6 Infinite / Xstream (http://www.e-onsoftware.com/)
A perfect tool for adding in custom skys / clouds, and creating matte paintings by adding in mountains, etc.

[Justin Anderson]

let's all give three cheers for Windows Movie Maker! Hip, hip, Huraah!!!

[Billy Summers]

What is the cost for a Scratch system that works with FCP?

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Her is a list like the one posted by Jack_Felis at the beginning of this thread but more detailed "i guess" .

compositing

Shake : node based system for 2d and color correction , very slow
Adobe After Effects : graphic motion get better with plugins
D2 NUKe 4.5 : node based system for for 2D and specially for 3D , fast and powerfull and complicated !
Combustion : Fast and good for general prupose (specially for HD)
Digital fusion : node based system fast and excellent , may be the best bargain for windows and linux .
BAUHAUS MIRAGE : painting
IMAGINEER SYSTEMS MOTOR : specific keying

Tracking Tools

Boujou , IMAGINEER SYSTEMS monet , pixelfarm

Top systems

Toxik : collaborative compositing up to 21 K
Flame and Inferno :Real time uncompressed 4K for rich people up to 200 k
Avid symphony and DS : uncompressed 2k an 4K for the avid users 50 K to 150 K

NLE

Final Cut pro : for mac and the codec is not interactive nor is variable very popular
Adobe Premiere Pro 2 :must add cineform aspect for 8 bits HD or prospect for 10 bits HD and 2K
Avid Media Composer :10 bits HD the codec is not interactive nor is variable , (should add some pieces of avid hardware for stotage and monitoring )
Canopus edius broadcast :variable interactive HQ codec like cineform for 8 bits HD fast and cheap (not sure for 10 bits HD).
Autodesk smoke : uncompressed HD and 2K/4k for more than 50 K on irix and linux
Avid DS nitris : uncompressed HD and 2K/4K with compositing 100 K
IFX piranha : uncompressed HD and 2K/4K with compositing 60K for Linux

3D

3dsmax : games and logo animations
Softimage XSI : integrated package for easy modeling , animation and FX compositing (a very nice bargain)
Maya : Nurbs modeling , animation and pipeline workflow , powrefull particle and FX engine , tight interface with renderman .
Houdini : Procedural 3D engine , powrefull particle and FX compositing engine , tight interface with renderman (very expensive and hard to learn)

Audio

Protools : the studio standard specially if your using avid product (Must use the digi hardware)
Nuendo : The alternative very powerfull and hardware independant
adobe audition : if your using adobe products , cheap and very good .

Color grading

Iridas speedgrade with frame cycler : fast and amazing for only 10k you may grade 2 and 4K
Autodesk discreet Lustre : a complete package for grading uncompressed 4:4:4 4K in real time with primary and as many as 21 secondaries cost about 150 K
adobe premiere with cineform and video finesse : the most affordable solution
After effects with Magic bullet : amazing cheap and very slow

This list is not complete but comments are welcomed to find the bests stations that can handle footages from red one .

Regards

[Zack Birlew]

Wow, wlaroussi, thanks for going into detail as well. Lots of stuff I've never heard of there! :)

Well, we've gotten quite a few entries on here. Surely this isn't all there is out there!

By any chance, has anyone ever tried the Cinelerra program for Linux? I never could learn Linux so I've never tried, but it's always looked like a very cool NLE choice.

Also, somebody asked why 3D Modeling is important, well, there's title sequences of course and then there's always a way to use 3D in any kind of film. Whether it's explosions, digital stunt doubles, space battles, ghosts, virtual cities, or the old dancing baby gag, it's all 3D.

[David Kirlew]

What is the cost for a Scratch system that works with FCP?

I have personally demoed Scratch and I think it's a phonomenal piece of software. It's Base Pricie is $35,000 but if you include all the panels Assimilate has for Scratch it costs $55,000. But currently Scratch is Windows only.

[wlaroussi]

Hi Jack_Felis

For cinelerra i saw a post somewhere on that forum . If i remeber the results were bad . For Linux try jashaka it's better i guess it' s a freeware" . For the 3D some effects are done in digital fusion or Nuke ... without the need of a 3D software (but you may need a 3D mesh or environment from somewhere) . For serious work (matrix , star wars....) , teams are hired in special studios working with many softs and pipeline scripts . The mastering final effects are usually done on a big Irix system with autodesk discreet Inferno (some 100's K $) . So is not that eazy . Why all is 3D ? cause is more eazy to fake a burning ghost using Maya than to film a burning dressed robot . Unfortunatly the technology is taking the lead while hardcore messages remains like "the old run and gun style movies" . Catching the audience for money is the rule .

Regards

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Revised edition:
compositing

Shake : Hasn't been updated in about 5 years except for patches and small updates. Still quick on its feet and has one of the best noodle workflows around. Paint tools are useless.
Adobe After Effects : Lacks in modern roto tools but allows quick clip cutting and editing making it an excellent choice for motion graphics. Photoshop users will feel at home in its interface. That's not a compliment.
D2 NUKe 4.5 : Horrendous (but improving) interface but boasts an excellent tool set. Internal 3d tools are unmatched on the desktop compositing market. Paint tools are seriously lacking see Shake.
Combustion : Untouchable paint tools but doggedly slow. So amazingly slow. Even slower than after effects. But simple and quick for the little things. If you aren't planning on having more than 20 layers you'll do fine. If you need lots of layers and lots of high resolution footage. Don't even try. like AE it'll choke.
Digital fusion : Hit and miss. Like combustion sports an amazing color correction interface but noodling isn't as elegant as shake or nuke. It's like if Shake and Combustion produced some ungodly bastard child that produced good composites. Paint tools are acceptable. Despite its awkwardness it sports some pretty neat tools. Bezier distortions and new the 3D functionalities are always welcome.
Toxik : Discreee* errr... Autodesk's latest compositor for the desktop. Requires a minimum of 5 seats and a server. Still lacking in tool set, but surprisingly fast. Keep an eye on this one.

Turn-Key Systems/Badgery Client Systems


Flame and Inferno :Real time uncompressed 4K (inferno) and 2k (flame) sometimes... as long as you don't apply any operators. One stop shops. You should be able to finish the entire shot without leaving to render out extra passes. Stone file storage adds hefty price. A low end system will set you back 100k but plan on 200 - 500+
Avid symphony and DS : uncompressed 2k an 4K for the avid users 50 K to 150 K

3D

3dsmax : Swiss Army Knife of 3D. Get photo-realistic results faster and easier than any other app. A one stop shop for modelling, texturing, animating and rendering out the box. Unlimited network rendering is worth its weight in gold... or at least a few thousand dollars per render node, whichever comes first. Out of the box studio ready to roll and can handle whatever might come tomorrow but if you're digging in for a 2 month shot think carefully and proceed cautiously.
Softimage XSI : Excellent modelling tools. Perhaps the best animation workflow available to the buying public.
Maya : Fluids, Furs and Physics built into Maya unlimited offer opportunities that slapped on attachments can't... if you have a programming team to take advantage of them. Excellent rigging tools but so does everyone else now. Worst modelling tools available for more than $500.
Houdini : The programmer's friend. Create vast cities, swarms of bees and crashing oceans all without touching a mouse... ok I jest... or do I? Very intriguing new character animation tools worth looking at. But starts at $12,000 a seat. How badly do you want the daily build?

Modo : You have this already right? You aren't seriously considering using maya's 'modelling tools'?
Silo : Oh you bought this instead of Modo. I guess that's ok. Wait you didn't buy this either?
Polyboost: For the love of God tell me you at least bought Polyboost for Max? No? I guess XSI's Sub-D tools are pretty good...

Mudbox: If you're doing organics you know what I"m talking about.
ZBrush : Wait a month 3 is almost here.... what ever happened to 2.5?

[Manfred Lopez]

What a great thread. So I guess this is what they call in the publishing world 'reinforcement reading'.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone can do a round-up (with opinions and aprox. prices) on color-correction specific sytems like Davinci, Silicon Color, etc. I know "wlaroussi" did this in his post above under "color grading"... but I want more! Advanced color correction is my current obsession as I can't afford a top-end system but consider it extremely important. So please don't stop...

[Bruce Allen]

You could probably finish in apple motion as it handles 4k files. Add particle effects color correct, text effects, etc. It would probably be the closest to realtime performance you can get.
http://www.motionsmarts.com/tutorials/nutsandbolts/sizematters.html

Nik, since AFAIK all graphics cards currently available for Mac have a maximum texture size of 2K x 2K, I think you may have a few difficulties... let's wait for a Mac GeForce 8 (or 9 or 10...) before that one gets off the ground.

Bruce
www.boacinema.com

[Holosynthetic]

Houdini : The programmer's friend. Create vast cities, swarms of bees and crashing oceans all without touching a mouse... ok I jest... or do I? Very intriguing new character animation tools worth looking at. But starts at $12,000 a seat. How badly do you want the daily build?

They recently dropped the price down to $7,995 a seat with unlimited network rendering with mantra. Also Houdini 9 should be surfacing in the second half of this year, I've been keeping my eye on it recently. Side Effects has stated that they are putting more work into the interface to update the buttons and make the workflow a little more simple with less steps to get the finished result. They are also making their particle simulation even more robust by adding water dynamics / sand.

[Joel Kaye]

Advanced color correction is my current obsession as I can't afford a top-end system but consider it extremely important. So please don't stop...

After Effects with Colorista is worth a look. Then you've got 16bit colorspace, masks, a tracker and Colorista has a bit more DaVinci like metaphor according to reviews I've seen.

It's going to be slower than the expensive stations but I see no reason the end quality would not be the same.

[Gbabymogul]

Final Draft

Without the content, it won't matter what other software you have. If more people spend time in Final Draft than other software this could be a real revolution. My hope for RED is that the tech frees us to aesthetically achieve the tales we've been yearning to tell.

Yeah, it's axiomatic, but someone has to say it.


:beer:

[Joel Kaye]

My hope for RED is that the tech frees us to aesthetically achieve the tales we've been yearning to tell.


Yeah - it'll be interesting to see if stories get any better or if Hollywood actually has been making the best scripts out there. I've met people who were screenplay readers and they say scripts that get submitted are usually formatted very well (thanks to Final draft) and structured fairly well (thanks to Robert Mckee... sorta) but still stink 'cause they just aren't compelling.

My guess is that Hollywood actually does pass on some pretty good stuff for many reasons. Talented people with RED may pull off some pretty cool shows for very cheap when you also consider how far along FX software has come.

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Thanks thatoneguy for your comments . We can add dozens of pages on the description of these tools . However it's looks like many people get lost with all this arsenal of tools , standards , specifications , compatibilty ; and there is no way out to ignore it . If somebody start compositing with 8 bits a 2K film and excpect to output the footage to a cine festival , with 2K cineon that will be a big mess and these things happens frequently) . So it's good to know what's going in out there and learn users comments and exprience .

For THeTHe ,

Davinci and many other propriatary turnkey systems are mainly used by Hollywood studios and some big postproduction houses . For the moment it's difficult to change these production pipelines because of the replacement costs (material , techiciens , trainings , and new pipelines workflow) . So the producers use what they use to see and understand . The advantage of these tools is their speed and automatation work . But new tools should take the lead slowly . I can't tell you what nor when . Risingsun has just made a fantastic software (cinespace) for clibrating colors between many monitors , projectors and softwares (plugins are available for shake , nuke and digital fusion ) . So , if you plan to make short films and documentaries , you may use low cost matriel (avid composer , shake, speedgrade , after effects , zbrush ....) . Now if you dream of a matrix style movie get some billions and let the pro do the job for you . At last , if you want to have a seat in hollywood like wathever a cameraman , or NLE manager then focus on one product/orientation . Of course many artitic opputunities exits also , you just have to dig .

Next post or thread will be on "color correction" thricks .

Regards

[david farland]

Jack,
Excellent thread here.
I hope it develops a little little mike morlan's camera thread or evin's lens thread. Nice you've sorted/listed the tools.
If that's clear people can see what's on offer for that area i,e, offline, online , sound etc.

People can read your evolving summary for what's on offer and read further in the thread for comments on software.

cheers,
DF

[Sean]

Yeah - it'll be interesting to see if stories get any better or if Hollywood actually has been making the best scripts out there. I've met people who were screenplay readers and they say scripts that get submitted are usually formatted very well (thanks to Final draft) and structured fairly well (thanks to Robert Mckee... sorta) but still stink 'cause they just aren't compelling.

My guess is that Hollywood actually does pass on some pretty good stuff for many reasons. Talented people with RED may pull off some pretty cool shows for very cheap when you also consider how far along FX software has come.

Be prepared for a glut of very badly written Red movies. But a few gems are going to shine through that would never have been made if Red didn't come about. Good scripts do get passed on by Hollywood, and that used to mean those scripts were relegated to a bookshelf. Now a writer who believes in that story can make it happen. That's the revolution. Most scripts are passed on by Hollywood for good reason, however.

[Chris Kenny]

Nik, since AFAIK all graphics cards currently available for Mac have a maximum texture size of 2K x 2K, I think you may have a few difficulties... let's wait for a Mac GeForce 8 (or 9 or 10...) before that one gets off the ground.

The Quadro FX 4500 Apple offers can do 4K textures.

I'd expect new towers with new video card options at NAB.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The X1900XT can also do 4K textures. So can the aftermarket X1900GT for G5 Power Mac systems. Most higher-end consumer/gaming cards can do it these days. All 512MB GeForce 7800+ and 8 series (except the mobile variants) can.

[Lucas Wilson]

What is the cost for a Scratch system that works with FCP?

Just saw this... Billy, contact me off-list at lucas@assimilateinc.com.

Cheers...