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View Full Version : So, what is the Scratch RED prepost for?



Chris Parker
01-22-2008, 11:12 PM
Is this designed to be more of an on-set tool, or an in-the-studio tool?

Please explain the purpose of this product and how it fits into the whole workflow. Thanks.

Chris Parker
01-23-2008, 01:11 AM
By the way, I do know what Scratch is. And I have read the Scratch_RED_faq...and the redprepost_overview.

I am wondering specifically what the deal with that cube is. And what is the benefit of bringing this on set, if that is indeed what it is for.

Zach Hilton
01-23-2008, 10:55 AM
As far as I know, that is Scratch's proprietary hardware system. It comes with everything you need in the box to do anything you want with a scratch (color, edit, lay to tape, export, etc...). The point of it being a cube (relatively small for what it offers, 12' x 12' x 12') is that you can transport your coloring/editing station on set and do pretty good dailies and the like. If you buy their full package all those things and more are a breeze, or so it seems.

Dane Brehm
01-23-2008, 04:41 PM
I had the chance to use the "Scratch box" on the LART set back in December and it's a pretty nice system with the ability to play back 2k no problem. 4 graphics cards will do that. If you take a look at the specs the Prepost "box" is a small form factor solution for on-set or studio and can be upgraded to a finishing system with a additional purchase.

$50K is a bit much but it's all high end so you get what you pay for.....

Scratch is going to be the de facto DI program for RED for the next year the problem is finding more then a few post house's with them.

I do not work for Assimilate.

John Tissavary
01-23-2008, 08:14 PM
It's not really proprietary, it's a custom built PC with the highest quality components in a portable package. Think of it as a package deal. You can run Scratch on any qualified PC, but this one was designed by Assimilate, so it's going to really make things easy.

cheers,

jt

Axel Mertes
01-24-2008, 05:03 AM
I had the chance to use the "Scratch box" on the LART set back in December and it's a pretty nice system with the ability to play back 2k no problem. 4 graphics cards will do that. If you take a look at the specs the Prepost "box" is a small form factor solution for on-set or studio and can be upgraded to a finishing system with a additional purchase.

$50K is a bit much but it's all high end so you get what you pay for.....

Scratch is going to be the de facto DI program for RED for the next year the problem is finding more then a few post house's with them.

I do not work for Assimilate.

We use SpeedGradeDI and it works out pretty well. So I would not actually say one must use Scratch, even if its a nice app to use for this purpose. Depending on what you do, the one or the other app may be better choice. For those already working with SpeedGradeDI I'd suggest to not yet trade it for Scratch. Have a look at the SpeedGradeDI RAW abilities and consider from there.

Cheers,
Axel

Axel Mertes
01-24-2008, 05:45 AM
Ooups, double message... [deleted]

Zach Hilton
01-24-2008, 09:14 AM
It's not really proprietary, it's a custom built PC with the highest quality components in a portable package. Think of it as a package deal. You can run Scratch on any qualified PC, but this one was designed by Assimilate, so it's going to really make things easy.

cheers,

jt

Sorry, proprietary was the wrong word. You can easily build one of these pc's yourself if you so desire. It's probably going to cost you more though. But I'm not in a position to drop $55k on a coloring system yet. Hopefully next year.

Lucas Wilson
01-24-2008, 11:09 AM
We use SpeedGradeDI and it works out pretty well. So I would not actually say one must use Scratch, even if its a nice app to use for this purpose. Depending on what you do, the one or the other app may be better choice. For those already working with SpeedGradeDI I'd suggest to not yet trade it for Scratch. Have a look at the SpeedGradeDI RAW abilities and consider from there.

Cheers,
Axel

Hey Axel,

You're correct that nobody *must* use SCRATCH. : )

I know of several RED productions that are using Baselight, iQ, Lustre, and you're using Speedgrade...

The advantage of SCRATCH in a DI environment is the ability to natively support R3D files and read the metadata therein. That makes conforming a relatively painless process, and transcoding a non-existent process.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
(currently in SanFran about to do a RED event...)

Dane Brehm
01-24-2008, 12:27 PM
Having that MetaData is the key to grading RED footage in my experience.

2 bits of extra data matters when dealing with the shoulder and toe of the RED.

laguun
01-24-2008, 01:27 PM
We use SpeedGradeDI and it works out pretty well. So I would not actually say one must use Scratch, even if its a nice app to use for this purpose. Depending on what you do, the one or the other app may be better choice. For those already working with SpeedGradeDI I'd suggest to not yet trade it for Scratch. Have a look at the SpeedGradeDI RAW abilities and consider from there.

Cheers,
Axel

Yes, Speedgrade has the most versatile RAW support in the DI industry. Longer than anyone else they support RAW decoding and debayering, including ARRI D20, the Phantom 65, Cineform RAW, Weisscam etc.

We also added Speedgrade as option for conform and DI.

Once red finally doesn´t prevent other manufacturers from using their file format in april, when they will make their specifications public, many missing links and obstacles in the RED postproduction workflow will be gone.

Also, several post houses in Berlin who choose to offer a 4K DI with 4K realtime playback and 4K pixel by pixel monitoring and 4K realtime effects invested in DVS clipster, which in pure performance is a class of its own, ahead of the nvidia graphics card -basing systems as speedgrade, scratch, mystika, matrix chrome, lustre etc.

It has been pretty silent on that front, but red announced 4K display and projectors at nab 07 - hopefully we will hear more about these products nab 08. It would be very exciting if red would offer such products at the disruptive price-performance we learned to expect from them.

laguun
01-24-2008, 01:34 PM
Having that MetaData is the key to grading RED footage in my experience.

2 bits of extra data matters when dealing with the shoulder and toe of the RED.

yeah, or even more - several workflows, especially for VFX extravaganzas go from redcode to 16 bit uncompressed 4K at once - in order to avoid banding and quality reduction going through several generations of an image while it travels from online 4k to 3D & cgi to VFX & compositing to DI & conform.

Its basicly the same what happened in pro audio - even when recorded at 16/20bit and 44/48 khz, most pipelines today store their sounds in 24bit / 96, even when the final result will be sold only on 16 / 44 or worse, 35 mm with its low-bandwidth dolby digital.

Axel Mertes
01-24-2008, 02:03 PM
Hey Axel,

You're correct that nobody *must* use SCRATCH. : )

I know of several RED productions that are using Baselight, iQ, Lustre, and you're using Speedgrade...

The advantage of SCRATCH in a DI environment is the ability to natively support R3D files and read the metadata therein. That makes conforming a relatively painless process, and transcoding a non-existent process.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
(currently in SanFran about to do a RED event...)



Hi Luki :)

no offense in not yet using Scratch here!
Its clear that the use of metadata can be helpful - as always - in such a post process.

To use native .r3d files in the post pipeline showed to be pretty helpful too, up to a certain degree. Depending on the particular type of work we use it even for the grading stage, no difference here.

The missing metadata might be helpful for a colorist sometimes, but our colorists usually first make a technical correction in terms of maximizing gamut to see "what is in there" before they start the dramatic act of grading it to the desired look. Maybe others work different, but thats the way we like it.

For the type of work we are (currently) on its rarely helpful to think you can just "conform", because we do heavy post production like keying, vfx, cgi etc. of any kind on top or with the RED footage. So its apparently very unlikely to keep that in the .r3d file format domain very long, especially not up to the conforming or grading stage, because we need to finish the shot first from effect side before it can be actually "conformed". The only way to keep it long in that file format domain would be that RED enables any third party to let them open their files natively, which is just not the case.

Grading a shot first and adding vfx later is often an unnecessary extra step. In compositing you have great pre-grading options, while you do final grading with the ready shots or elements. Sending a 20+ layer effect shot towards a realtime dedicated machine will drive you nuts, as you do not even get a frame every few seconds in 4K then. On compositing side we have the big back bone of render farming, that does the job, quicker.

Cheers,
Axel

Axel Mertes
01-24-2008, 02:12 PM
Yes, Speedgrade has the most versatile RAW support in the DI industry. Longer than anyone else they support RAW decoding and debayering, including ARRI D20, the Phantom 65, Cineform RAW, Weisscam etc.
[snip]

...which was due my massive personal demand and input regarding this topic, as I explained them (Iridas) way back then that a RAW data throughput is just 1/3 data that needs to be transferred, and that GPU deBayer was so basically easy. That moment was the birth of GPU based deBayer, and I am pleased I was heared by the right poeple! The existing results of that action have been named above.

I am really proud of that, and of Iridas.

Some poeple hear you earlier, other later, others never.

Thats my experience with all these tools and companies.

Cheers,
Axel

laguun
01-24-2008, 02:36 PM
...which was due my massive personal demand and input regarding this topic, as I explained them (Iridas) way back then that a RAW data throughput is just 1/3 data that needs to be transferred, and that GPU deBayer was so basically easy. That moment was the birth of GPU based deBayer, and I am pleased I was heared by the right poeple! The existing results of that action have been named above.

I am really proud of that, and of Iridas.

Some poeple hear you earlier, other later, others never.

Thats my experience with all these tools and companies.

Cheers,
Axel
Yeah - when red will specify its fileformat in april, so that the industry can finally support then, iridas speedgrade will be probably the "one for all" raw DI station.

BTW - is your speedgrade on OSX or Win and, more important, is it stationary or also available in your studio in Berlin?

Axel Mertes
01-24-2008, 03:12 PM
Laguun,

its planned to be available from Berlinale onward in Berlin "on demand". We will give a "Berlinale Breakfast" in our facility in Berlin on February 13th, showcasing the RED ONE #110, the then hopefully finished teaser for "Cold Storage" and some more work. The SpeedGradeDI station should be there at that time (fingers crossed).

The bigger backbone is still in Frankfurt facility, due to the larger vfx department we have there. But things will change on demand :)

Cheers,
Axel

laguun
02-18-2008, 05:44 PM
Laguun,

its planned to be available from Berlinale onward in Berlin "on demand". We will give a "Berlinale Breakfast" in our facility in Berlin on February 13th, showcasing the RED ONE #110, the then hopefully finished teaser for "Cold Storage" and some more work. The SpeedGradeDI station should be there at that time (fingers crossed).

The bigger backbone is still in Frankfurt facility, due to the larger vfx department we have there. But things will change on demand :)

Cheers,
Axel

The speedgrade we offer is also on patrol, between hamburg berlin.