GREAT workflow discovered and tested

[Jay A. Kelley]

To keep people from wasteing their time, let me say up front this (For now) is a PC workflow. And... It's not available now, but it will be.

The cineform command line app won't work a whole lot longer as I believe it's no longer available until Jim says so. Also build 14 will most likely not be compatible with this program.

But I was able to continue my tests on it for now in order to find a workflow so that I knew where I would be heading when it came back.

It's possible that RED may come out with their own command line app, but they may not make it AVI/Cineform friendly, and to me that's important.

It's also important to note that Cineform's app will grow and become more useful. It's main purpose is to change the R3D file to a Cineform AVI file. Wether that be RAW or a high quality 4:2:2: file. For this workflow, we're staying with RAW.

Step One: Using REDCine, analysis your footage and what you want to use. You would write down the file names, and in/out points. Don't do anything to the files themselves.

Step Two: Using the command line app (When it becomes available) enter files and in/out points (I am also assuming that when it comes back, in the future, you will be able to enter more than one file).

Important Note: The render speed of this app is about 4x-5x FASTER than the CURRENT REDCine (I say current cause I fully expect REDCine to get faster in the future as well).

Step Three: Edit in Adobe Premiere. The speed is impressive, editing and dissolves all happen in real time. It's important to note you are NOT editing with proxys here, you are using 16 bit CINEFORM RAW files, so you are cutting the files you will be color correcting later on. Nice... From my limited testing, I had no speed issues, and the transitions (As long as you use Cineform's and NOT Premiere's) were real time also.

Step Four: Color Correct the footage. I spent some time with Synthetic Apature Color Finesse 2. This is a VERY impressive piece of software. If you own After Effects 6.5 or higher you can get an upgrade of this program for $375.00. The plug ins work for both Premiere Pro and After Effects (After Effects is needed when you want to do masks, which it does very well in combination with the tracking software in there.)

Once that's done you can do sound work in whatever you wish, and then output the file you want.

Okay, so it's not a super-duper high end Scratch system, but for those of us looking for the best quality on a budget I think we're off to a good start.

Here are my priced:

Computer (quad system, 8800 gtx, Raid 0 drive, system drive, 4gb RAM)
$2,200.00
Monitor (30" dell) $1,200.00
Cineform 2k (No, I don't edit 4k.. Sorry) $1,499
Color Finesse: $375 (Upgrade)
Adobe Studio: $799 (Upgrade)

Total for basic system: $6,073.00

Interestingly, if you match the same specs with a MAC then you will be within $200 of the same cost!

Personally, I like Cineform a LOT more than Prorez. And I believe in my limited opinion that Color Finesse is faster and more stable.

What's exciting to me about this workflow are a couple of things:

Speed, the app renders the files pretty fast, so you get to editing quicker. And the files are still in RAW form which allows you to make your changes after you editing with no additional steps.. I like that.

Quality, everything here is 16bit, and 32 floating point deep color (Whatever all that means) and so you are not giving up anything.. You have a robust codec that can handle some serious quality.

Financially, there is not enough savings here to go PC cause of price. Of course I left out some large items like a monster RAID array and an LTO-4 backup, but those are not "mac" or "pc" items.

BUT if you are already on PC and you are comfortable there, then I am happy to tell you that once Jim gives the "ok" you will have access to a rockin workflow that should do your RED proud!

It's a wonderful time to be alive!

Jay

PS forgive the spelling errors and grammer mistakes, I am so tired this is all I can do and I wanted to get it out for you

[Sean]

Very cool.

And 32 bit floating point in AE means you have something just as powerful as a daVinci, or what have you, for color correcting (just not real time).

I look forward to seeing how this workflow evolves with upcoming RedCine and Cineform releases.

[Jay A. Kelley]

That begs a question. I wonder if using color correction in After Effects is BETTER than doing it in Premiere Pro.

Davids? Can you chime in here.. This is important.

Jay

[Frank Weeks]

BUT if you are already on PC and you are comfortable there, then I am happy to tell you that once Jim gives the "ok" you will have access to a rockin workflow that should do your RED proud!

Thank you Jay,for keeping us up to date.

This is great news.

Frank

[Steve Sherrick]

I believe you will get cleaner color correction in After Effects and a cleaner render too. I'm experimenting with finishing via After Effects after many disappointing experiences with FCP. Actually, disappointing is probably too strong a word. Final Cut can do a fine job. Things just seem cleaner in After Effects, but time consuming as well. I'm trying to follow Stu Maschwitz's workflow.

Steve

[Jay A. Kelley]

There's a good chance you are right, but I would want to hear from Cineform on this first, and Color Finesse. I will check with them tomorrow.

I am aware there is suppose to be a way to take a premiere project and throw it into after effects.. If this worked.. That would rule

But I am still not sure Premiere won't do the job. The bit depth is the same in both programs


Jay

[Steve Sherrick]

You might be right. I don't use Premiere so I can't say. All I know is that After Effects can process cleaner than FCP. I use Automatic Duck to import the FCP project into AE. The nice thing is that Colorista and Looks Suite settings come across, so I can do preliminary CC in FCP and then expand on it in AE.

Steve

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Very cool, thanks Jay..

This has got to be the best workflow thread I've read so far (for my needs..)

[Bruce Allen]

Important Note: The render speed of this app is about 4x-5x FASTER than the CURRENT REDCine (I say current cause I fully expect REDCine to get faster in the future as well).

Good grief! Is that with the better deBayer they introduced? 4x-5x faster is wonderful.

Ah well... let's hope Cineform gets the OK by NAB. Was Red aware of just how much faster it was before they shut it down? This is crazy. But who cares, whatever crazy bargain Red made to get us everything that makes up the camera... it was obviously worth it and we're thankful.


There's a good chance you are right, but I would want to hear from Cineform on this first, and Color Finesse. I will check with them tomorrow.

I am aware there is suppose to be a way to take a premiere project and throw it into after effects.. If this worked.. That would rule


It totally works. Beware though that if you start to make major editing changes, then conforming these changes in After Effects is a pain. I did a 10-minute short film using that method and re-editing it SUUUUUUCKED. Music videos are about the maximum length you can do without going nuts. If you can, try to do it shot by shot and send back to "finish" in Premiere if you can.

In terms of color correction in After Effects vs Premiere, After Effects has historically been way superior in both mathematical quality and breadth of features. Premiere is catching up though. Probably the same in terms of calculations it does when it renders (internally both can be 32-bit). If only they'd let you draw masks for power windows and give you adjustment layers in Premiere...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

You might be right. I don't use Premiere so I can't say. All I know is that After Effects can process cleaner than FCP.

Agreed, there is no comparison.

CLARIFICATION EDIT: I do think FCP is particularly bad. Historically it was horrific, they cleaned it up a bit but IMHO it still sucks. The new Premiere is not as bad from what I've seen so far.

But on the other hand, there are programs that process cleaner than After Effects. All of those crazy scaling options in Scratch / RedCine for example are there for a reason and I wish they were there in After Effects.

That said, I personally think the quality difference between FCP and AE is great, but AE vs Scratch / Toxik / Inferno / Fire / Quantel / Shake / Nuke is far more minor.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[David Wilson]

This is excellent to hear - exactly what we have been hoping for. We are a small museum doing documentary work and have used CineForm from the earliest days. We want very much to be able to continue to use the CineForm based Premiere/AE workflow that has been so effective for us in the past. Music to my ears to read these posts. Many thanks.

[Joe Carney]

Jay, the version of Cineform you will be using is not RAW, it's wavelet. The only RAW version of Cienform available is the codec designed for the SI2K.
Full quality in Cineform is close to 100MB sec at 2K, lesser quality settings have considerably less throughput requirements, but sill not at the 27MB for RedCode 4K.

I'm not knocking Cineform, just wanting to keep facts straight for those interested.

And Jay I do not recommend Raid 0. Speaking from painful experience. My new setup will be with a dedicated Raid card (pci express) at either Raid 5 or Raid 10 aka 1E. I looking at either Adaptec or Areca.

If you can afford the additional cost, go with Seagate over Western Digital. Seagate offers a 5 year warranty. I'm going to end up getting 6 750gb drives for editing and storage. Nothing wroing with WD as your primary drive.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Zeke,

I will double check this, but I believe you can CHOOSE which one you want.

As for the RAID 0.. I hear ya.. I live on a RAID 5 myself, but use the zero for a fast scratch drive.

Jay

[David Newman]

Jay, the version of Cineform you will be using is not RAW, it's wavelet. The only RAW version of Cienform available is the codec designed for the SI2K.
Full quality in Cineform is close to 100MB sec at 2K, lesser quality settings have considerably less throughput requirements, but sill not at the 27MB for RedCode 4K.

Hi Zeke, I'm not sure where you got this info. Let be know and I will stamp it out.

CineForm RAW is available at any resolution, including 4K and above. We where editing multi-stream 4K CineForm RAW footage from Dalsa Origin at the CineForm NAB booth last year. The data rate for 4k Dalsa in CineForm RAW averaged about 45MB/s in Filmscan 1 (very high) quality and you choose a range of qualities. Red file to CineForm RAW product data rates ranging between 25-35MB/s at the same quality. The difference in data rate is due to Red's footage is pre-noise filtered through its wavelet compressed.

100MB/s can happen with 4K exported CineForm 4:4:4 (constast quality codec, data rate can vary), although is typically found to be under 70MB/s through RedCine exports.

[Joe Carney]

Hi Zeke, I'm not sure where you got this info. Let be know and I will stamp it out.

CineForm RAW is available at any resolution, including 4K and above. We where editing multi-stream 4K CineForm RAW footage from Dalsa Origin at the CineForm NAB booth last year. The data rate for 4k Dalsa in CineForm RAW averaged about 45MB/s in Filmscan 1 (very high) quality and you choose a range of qualities. Red file to CineForm RAW product data rates ranging between 25-35MB/s at the same quality. The difference in data rate is due to Red's footage is pre-noise filtered through its wavelet compressed.

100MB/s can happen with 4K exported CineForm 4:4:4 (constast quality codec, data rate can vary), although is typically found to be under 70MB/s through RedCine exports.

OK, what I meant was you don't get any meta data for non destructive editing like you would from Red or SI.

The 100MB statement was directly from your web site when I last visited it in December. I am looking at Neo2K as an intermediate codec and filmscan in the info matrix showed up to 100MB. Has that changed?
I may be wrong, but I think I remember you telling me the only difference between Neo and Prospect was the real time rendering features.

Not trying to pass incorrect info, so I apologize if I am wrong on this.

[Bruce Allen]

Hi Zeke, I'm not sure where you got this info. Let be know and I will stamp it out.

David, I would guess he is confused because you have, like, 8 versions of your product.

Neo HDV
Neo HD
Neo 4K
Aspect HD
Prospect HD
Prospect 2K
Prospect 2K-DL
Prospect 4K

Imagine if Adobe had 8 versions of Premiere. Probably their customers would be confused as hell too.

I humbly suggest AT MOST:

Cineform HD - $700
Cineform 2K + RAW - $1400
Cineform 4K + RAW - $1900

All of them should do the Premiere real-time thing and include the Mac codec.

Anything more and you turn away a lot of customers who think "good grief, if it takes me 30 minutes to read through their feature comparison, I'll bet figuring out the actual software is a nightmare."

Many great editors are not tech-heads at all and are totally turned off by the apparent company attitude of "you have to learn all our technical terms and go through all these feature comparison tables in order to be worthy to buy our product."

I know that's not what you guys are about AT ALL - but that's the impression your website gives.

Tough love, I'm sorry. For the money I fervently hope you guys get allowed to release your Red tools as soon as possible. I'm sure if Jim bought a pre-release Canon DSLR and they told him that their camera was "in development" and that he was only allowed to use Canon's RAW converter software and not anyone else's because they had signed some weird agreement, he'd be a bit upset that there wasn't a big warning sticker on it saying "only works with Canon RAW converter- although we have said that other workflows are coming, we will actively stomp out other RAW converter tools for now" when he bought it.

There, now I have succeeded in pissing off both Cineform and Red in a single post.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jay A. Kelley]

Welcome to my world Bruce. NOW we can have a beer together.

:)

Jay

[David Newman]

OK, what I meant was you don't get any meta data for non destructive editing like you would from Red or SI.

The 100MB statement was directly from your web site when I last visited it in December. I am looking at Neo2K as an intermediate codec and filmscan in the info matrix showed up to 100MB. Has that changed?

I couldn't find any mention of 100MB, under NEO 2K on our site. If it was ever there is was in error, as our data rates have never that high.

As the the meta data for non-destructive color processing, that is included with CineForm RAW, whether the compression was performed in camera or not. It is a feature of the decompression engine. So you can set white balance, color matrix, curves, and 3D LUT for film locks, all before the images are received by the NLE or compositor. We are working on added this to CineForm 444 as well. That way you can export out of RedCine to CineForm that apply white balance or other color tweaks in post without touching the features of the NLE (platform and application independent color development), all non-destructive.

[David Newman]

Bruce,

no offense taken here, our site sucks. All hands are on development, and we would happily exchange software for some web design. :)

We are reducing the software versions. Prospect 2K-DL became Prospect 4K. So that is one less to worry about (yes the site needs to reflect this.)
Three product lines:-
Aspect --for HDV Premiere users.
NEO -- for compositors AE, Compbustion, and Sony Vegas and Mac OS.
Prospect -- accelerator for Premiere Pro 2.0/CS3 Windows, includes NEO.

Three -- encoder license types.
HD - licensed to 1920x1080 4:2:2
2K - licensed to 2048x2048 4:4:4:4
4K - licensed any res at 4:4:4:4

Once you know want features you need there is normally an easy choice. The product break down is simple, the web site confuses the message.

I'm pleased our prices at least match your listings.

[Ben Feuer]

I think cross-platform compatibility is the one thing that's holding me back from purchasing Cineform at this point. I'm afraid of committing to Mac or PC workflow b/c I don't know which will end up being faster.

[David Newman]

I think cross-platform compatibility is the one thing that's holding me back from purchasing Cineform at this point. I'm afraid of committing to Mac or PC workflow b/c I don't know which will end up being faster.

All HD, 2K and 4K products include a license for Mac and PC, so cross compatibility is not an issue. As for CineForm workflow speed, the Premiere Pro CS3 will always be faster than Apple FCS, as FCP is a mostly closed platform, not allowing the same level of acceleration like Adobe does.

[Bruce Allen]

David, you are very tactful, thank you.

EDIT: okay, revised this...

If you absolutely must have 7 versions, why not consolidate under one brand name? Aspect and Prospect are easily confused with each other and should be dropped IMHO. Go with Cineform. Build your brand. Here's my suggestion:

For everyone (Mac and PC, codec + some extra PC software)
Cineform HDV
Cineform HD
Cineform 4K RAW

Optimized for Premiere (everything above, plus RT Premiere support):
Cineform HDV RT
Cineform HD RT
Cineform 2K RAW RT
Cineform 4K RAW RT

included in all: Mac codec.

Or maybe use a plus sign instead of RAW (eg "Cineform 2K+" not "Cineform 2K RAW")? Symbolizing RAW + 4:4:4:4 support?

free to everyone:
Cross-Platform Cineform Player Codec (decode only - I know, that's a contradiction of the definition of "codec" but Red is getting away with it so you can too)

Again, though, I think if Adobe sold many versions of Premiere (Premiere HDV, Premiere DVCPROHD, Premiere HD-SDI, Premiere DV, Premiere XDCAM, Premiere 2K, etc) at different price points, is would not be a smart move.

Ah well, ideally you could get Adobe to bundle the HDV version with Premiere? Or get Adobe to buy you guys out for stacks of cash. They need something to compete with / beat ProRes and DNxHD.

Otherwise, I think someone needs to get in touch with David about web design ASAP. That's a sweet offer. If nobody else beats me to it, I'd definitely take you up on your offer when I have normal working hours...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Simon Blackledge]

Still not sure I get why you can't just buy the mac codec :-/

Would love to use it but have no pc's in our studio and have no plans to edit with Premiere..

s

[David Newman]

Still not sure I get why you can't just buy the mac codec :-/

Would love to use it but have no pc's in our studio and have no plans to edit with Premiere..

s

You want NEO then. We aren't selling just codecs without the worklfow enhancements, that is a more difficult business model. Eventually, when more of the PC tools are ported to the Mac we may separate MAC and PC license, today you basically get the other one for free. Give it to a business partner who is PC exclusive.

[tillHavis]

Hi David ! Firstly you know I value your product highly and hope you take my suggestions in the spirit in which they are offered.
Your website is the starting point for most professionals who are interested in Cineform. Their is a lot of conflicting information on it.
One day to clean up the details would help.

Secondly you know my feelings on offering one complete solution for MAC and PC. I know this is your plan, but an approximate date as to when we can see the HD Link function for Mac to appear would help.
I have see the results using Cineform and they are very good.
One of my closest friends in this business started out on PC using Cineform but moved over to Mac; he is now tearing his hair out as he bought Neo 4K in the hope that the HD Link function would be working by now and he could work with existing formats up to full 2k (Monitoring and Output).
I am still holding on, but it would make it easier if we had an aprox date to work with. Also those early adopters such as my friend should really be rewarded if you do as Bruce says change versions and make one product covering all formats and outputs up to 4K RAW 4:4:4:4

[Joe Carney]

I couldn't find any mention of 100MB, under NEO 2K on our site. If it was ever there is was in error, as our data rates have never that high.

As the the meta data for non-destructive color processing, that is included with CineForm RAW, whether the compression was performed in camera or not. It is a feature of the decompression engine. So you can set white balance, color matrix, curves, and 3D LUT for film locks, all before the images are received by the NLE or compositor. We are working on added this to CineForm 444 as well. That way you can export out of RedCine to CineForm that apply white balance or other color tweaks in post without touching the features of the NLE (platform and application independent color development), all non-destructive.

Your site states data rates of 24MB for filmscan2 for 1920x1080x24p YUV.

it also says

"
CineForm 444 material will be about double the size of CineForm YUV material for a given frame size
Certain applications don't exploit the temporal nature of the CineForm algorithm, and resulting YUV file sizes are approximately 25% larger than shown in the table. This doesn't impact visual quality, only compressed file size. These applications include Sony Vegas and Apple Final Cut Pro.
"

So 444 material has significantly higher throughput requirements? Or am I reading this wrong?

I realized I was basing my statement per Vegas requirements, not Premier or AE. (double size 444 plus 25% larger in Vegas ) times 2 streams at 2K.
Probably wrong conclusion. but that's what I was thinking.

I'm wrong about the 100MB for 2K, but what about 4K at 444, (not YUV) at filmscan 2 quality?

Note..I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to understand. It seems I have most of it wrong and would like to get it right.

Here is the link I'm referring to....
http://cineform.com/products/TechNotes/QualitySettings.htm

[David Newman]

Yet 4K is not four times more difficult to compress than 2K, as it typically doesn't have 4X the information. A rule of thumb: 2.5X data rate increase for every 4X increase of resolution.

CineForm RAW 2K, via the SI camera averages 12MB/s. 2.5X for 4K put us around 30MB/s.
2K RGB 444 averages around 35MB/s, at 4K around 88MB/s.

These are for uncomrpessed sources. Pre-compressed sources like Red the numbers will be a little lower. From Dalsa 4K footage I seen 100MB/s in 444, depends on the scene.

While Filmscan2 can bump the data rate a little, most users operate at "High" or "Filmscan 1", in house Filmscan 2 is called overkill.

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

GREAT thread, thanks. :)

Color Finesse rocks, but it had some problems in CS3.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the Dynamic Link feature in CS3 allows to ingest an entire Premiere project into AE and you can even go back and forth but the machine has to be powerful and every change to the edit takes a LOT of time to recalculate in AE.

And, yes - it's an exciting time. :)

[Frank Weeks]

Jay

Is this your current configuration?



Cooler Master CM Stacker 830 ATX Full-Tower Aluminum Case with Vented Side and 1000-Watt Power Supply

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor (Only 1)

GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 intel x38 chipset ATX form factor

Kingston HyperX 2GB DDR2 SDRAM Memory Module -x2

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD2500KS 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

Bfg Bfge88512gtse Geforce 8800 Gts OverClocked 512mb

[Lauri Kettunen]

The difference in data rate is due to Red's footage is pre-noise filtered through its wavelet compressed.

David, this detail is interesting as I've tried to get an answer for this to understand what the ISO tests last fall really told us. Do you mean by pre-noise filtering that during the wavelet compression the highest "frequencies" are discarded? (It's not relly about frequencies as in FFT, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

If so, it's almost like the famous non-existing free lunch; One has to compress to keep the amount of data in reasonable limits. But, although compression sounds like a drawback, noise is lost in the wavelet compression, and that's what one is anyhow looking for.

[David Newman]

David, this detail is interesting as I've tried to get an answer for this to understand what the ISO tests last fall really told us. Do you mean by pre-noise filtering that during the wavelet compression the highest "frequencies" are discarded? (It's not relly about frequencies as in FFT, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

If so, it's almost like the famous non-existing free lunch; One has to compress to keep the amount of data in reasonable limits. But, although compression sounds like a drawback, noise is lost in the wavelet compression, and that's what one is anyhow looking for.

Yes? I'm not sure what the question is exactly. Good compression removes noise and subtle detail that will not be missed by the human eye. As Redocde has already removed a lot of sensor noise, re-encoding its output will produce a lower bit-rate than encoding an image that has never been compressed. CineForm compression is an approximate tool for measuring picture information, as the data is not capped, and the quantization is fixed, images with more detail, texture and noise produce higher data rates than those that don't.

[jbeale]

Any form of image compression (that looks any good) works by removing the data from the original that describes the least visible parts of the image. That means the smallest details will be reduced or disappear entirely, both the high frequency noise, and the high frequency "real" image detail.

[Stephen Gentle]

Maybe you need an easier way of choosing codecs - I whipped up a short demo (it's a bit faster than I meant it to be - I might have messed up the frame rate):

http://files.nanotechnology.org.au/cineform-chooser.mov (http://files.nanotechnology.org.au/cineform-chooser.mov)

That demo doesn't actually choose a codec based on your choices at the moment - it always shows Prospect HD - but it would be trivial to do that with a bit of PHP.

-Stephen

[Lauri Kettunen]

As Redocde has already removed a lot of sensor noise, re-encoding its output will produce a lower bit-rate than encoding an image that has never been compressed.

Last autumn some ISO test images were shown and they looked really good. I just wanted to understand how much the compression affected the outcome, and now you give an implicit answer for that. Thanks.

[Prem Edpuganti]

Jay, Bruce: You guys always beat me to it.

My projects involve lot of chroma keying and special effects with lot of compositing. I decided to base my system on PC using Adobe and Cineform, and started out building one. Along the way I got disheartened when I probably erroneously reached the conclusion that FCP may be the only way because of limitations of Windows based system . I thought of dong all the special effects in After Effects in Windows and importing into FCP. But the problem was, David Newman mentioned in one of the threads that FCP treats imported files as 8 bit, which is a no-no for me.

I got elated when I saw Jay's posting on other work flows.

The the three phases I am looking at are: acquisition, content management and delivery. I took care of the first and last with Red Camera and Film Out. I am struggling to create a reliable work flow for content management without breaking the bank. Jay's solution looks very attractive, and thanks to him for all the research.

But Jay, did you consider calibrating the monitor to make sure the colors you see on the monitor during grading, correction are the same as the ones you get on the final output medium. A friend of mine uses a device for calibrating his monitor, but he is in photography business. Perhaps we can use the same, I am not sure, to calibrate our monitors. Link:

http://www.colorvision.com/index_us.php

[Luis Otero]

Hi David ! Firstly you know I value your product highly and hope you take my suggestions in the spirit in which they are offered...I know this is your plan, but an approximate date as to when we can see the HD Link function for Mac to appear would help... Also those early adopters such as my friend should really be rewarded if you do as Bruce says change versions and make one product covering all formats and outputs up to 4K RAW 4:4:4:4

Thanks for putting together all my expectations and desires in one posting!


David,

I was one of the earliest adopter of Aspect HD, and I love it! Now that I have moved to Intel Mac (and bought Neo 4K), in which I use both, Mac Leopard and XP through BootCamp, I am waiting to get my version of HDLink for Mac, as marketed all over the Cineform website, and the main reason for me to venture in jumping from purchasing and using CS3 for Mac and not for XP. A timeframe for delivery would be greatly appreciated.

Again, I love to work and the results I get from Cineform, so fully expanding it for Mac to me, as a future RedOne owner, is a must.

Thanks,

Luis Otero

[Michele Gavazzeni]

But the problem was, David Newman mentioned in one of the threads that FCP treats imported files as 8 bit, which is a no-no for me.

WHAT!!! he is wrong.
it depends upon the codec of the file imported.

[Michele Gavazzeni]

That said, I personally think the quality difference between FCP and AE is great,
using FCP you can use Automatic Duck’s Pro Import AE to import full FCP timeline into AE and render out from there
you can also edit in fcp with proxy and conform in AE replacing the low-res versions and chainging the project proprieties.

More info here:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/tutorials/howtutorials/f/post/7417.html

seems actractive

[David Newman]

While I never said that FCP treats imported files as 8-bit, it is harder than other applications to maintain a good deep workful, one reason FCP is not recommended for finishing, and tools like Automatic Duck are such a help. I thnk the user maybe confusing that there is an 8-bit issue with ProRES (last time I tested), while ProRES is 10-bit within Apple tools it is 8-bit within tools like After Effects. Someone let me now if Apple has fixed this.

As for HDlink support native on the Mac, we are likely to focus on a reduced feature set, focusing on the higher end markets for Mac, deep pixel conversion tools DPX->CineForm->DPX with nice scaler etc. HDLink has a large number of features targeted to HDV users, which are very Windows centric. The main HDV feature that everyone wants on the Mac is our on the fly pulldown removal. We wish this could happen sooner, but it is still many months out when engineering can be freed up some to complete that work. This is the reason we include both PC and Mac licenses, that way you have use the Windows license under VMWare, Parallels or Boot Camp. We can't promise any dates, and we know we are missing out on some market share while we don't have these tools -- so yes we have the insentive to get this done.

[Nick Shaw]

…while ProRES is 10-bit within Apple tools it is 8-bit within tools like After Effects. Someone let me now if Apple has fixed this.

Not even all Apple tools. Only FCS2 I think. Shake sees ProRes as 8-bit, which is a pain.

[Axel Mertes]

Not even all Apple tools. Only FCS2 I think. Shake sees ProRes as 8-bit, which is a pain.

Ouch!!!

Axel

[A. Bastaki]

I am aware there is suppose to be a way to take a premiere project and throw it into after effects.. If this worked.. That would rule..

Dynamic Link.
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[Mike McCarthy]

Dynamic link is for bringing an AE comp into Premiere. AE can import a Premiere project directly. Not all effects translate into AE, but it works great for onlining.

[Stephen Gentle]

Dynamic link is for bringing an AE comp into Premiere. AE can import a Premiere project directly. Not all effects translate into AE, but it works great for onlining.

On doing a File->Import of a Premiere project into After Effects, are any effects translated? The only ones I ever use in Premiere are opacity changes, and annoyingly, these are left behind.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Jay one thing you might want to experiment with (if you want to use AE as your conform tool).

Is to use Automatic Duck through Combustion 5. Between its color corrector and now Color Warper (super badass) you would have an over the top powerful color grading tool.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

In regards to Cineform products I think the really confusing one is Aspect vs Prospect vs Neo.

It seems like you could have one product line:

Neo
Cineform Neo HDV
Cineform Neo HD
Cineform Neo Unlimited

with RT as an addon.


So you list it like:

Cineform Neo Unlimited
----------------------
Windows
MacOS (1)
----------------------
Unrestricted
----------------------
10- / 12-bit
----------------------
YUV 4:2:2
RGB 4:4:4
RGBA 4:4:4:4
----------------------
----------------------
Base: $999
Base + Premiere 2k RT: $1499
Base + Premiere 2k/4k RT: $1999

At the very least you could work down the list... so after "Base" have some more dots in a different colored background down to "Base + "

That way everything is on one page. You can easily see what is what... and you don't have to buy 99% of the featureset twice.

EDIT: Just realized the "overview page" is exactly like that... except with both "Prospect and Aspect" at the bottom. :) But that still leaves the Aspect vs Prospect conundrum which is confusing... since both are the same thing just different resolutions.

Also WAYYYYY OFFF TOPIC but... Any chance we could ever see a Cineform EXR? Would that work like Quicktime where you just install the codec and all software that supports OpenEXR support the cineform codec?

[Frank Weeks]

Hi Gavin,

Just wondering what workflow you are using and how would you rate it at this time.

I would like to stay with the PC platform and I know you have expressed support for it.

Thanks
Frank

[A. Bastaki]

1. According to Jim... Cineform's solution will be obsolete by build 14.

2. yes you could load premiere projects into ae. i dont like the fades in premiere... they are too video like. a film fade... usually turns up the highlights then the shadows... and when faded out.. turns the shadows then the highlights. video.. just doesn't give a damn fades everything out. the same with between video fades.
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[Thomas Mathai]

While I never said that FCP treats imported files as 8-bit, it is harder than other applications to maintain a good deep workful, one reason FCP is not recommended for finishing, and tools like Automatic Duck are such a help. I thnk the user maybe confusing that there is an 8-bit issue with ProRES (last time I tested), while ProRES is 10-bit within Apple tools it is 8-bit within tools like After Effects. Someone let me now if Apple has fixed this.




This seems to be more a reoccurring After Effects issue on the Mac :

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/06/after-effects-stuff-workflow-tips-and.html

[tillHavis]

Hi David ! I hope that your HD Link reduced feature set for Mac includes a P2 and AVC-Intra conversion feature 24p and 25p (for Pal users) along with Sony and JVC support. Pulldown removal is great but don't forget we also need to output and monitor any converted footage in at least 2K resolution. As I use Blackmagic Decklink and AJA cards; mainly Blackmagic the ability to output to a D5 or Sony deck is a must to fit in with my current workflow.
It is good to see that Cineform is listening to their customers needs.
Thanks.

[Mike McCarthy]

On doing a File->Import of a Premiere project into After Effects, are any effects translated? The only ones I ever use in Premiere are opacity changes, and annoyingly, these are left behind.

My opacity changes translate to transparency in AE. The effects I am usually missing are Premiere titles, and third party effects.

[Edgar Pitts]

Do all of the Cineform effects (Dissolve, etc.) translate from Premiere to After Effects?

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

I am a bit late to this discussion, but anyway here goes.

I am not sure what the confusion is regarding Cineforms products... if you go to their website it is all easily laid out. (On a side note I would love to update date the site for you David, but I do not know how to program-dammit)

NEO: http://cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm
Aspect/Prospect: http://cineform.com/products/Aspect-Prospect.htm

Scroll to the bottom of the pages.

Aspect and Prospect are for Premiere Pro on Windows. Aspect HD and Prospect HD/2K/4K provide a real-time, multi-stream editing environment within Adobe Premiere Pro. NEO is compatible with most Windows and Mac post-production software. However the media can be shared cross platform using the FREE NEO decoder. Or you can use HDLInk to rewrap to MOV or to AVI depending which platform you started on. Rewrapping your media does not distrub the underlying compression or anything like that, it simply encases the media to MOV or AVI.

Aspect and Prospect are easily understood as well as NEO. The higher you go in the list:

a) the more expensive the product and

b) your bit depth and output resolution increases.

I am upgrading to P2K soon and I have no regrets.