Coming out of Beta...

[Jannard]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way. But we will need to know. If you decide you are in (by Feb. 1) you have 30 days to make payment and accept delivery. We are really talking to serial #'s 1-500.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim

[Kenn Michael]

Exciting stuff Jim.

I've had my camera since Friday, and everyday I'm more and more amazed by its elegance and beauty.... This is the camera I've dreamed of for more than a decade.

It only gets better from here.

Thank you for your (our) revolution!

[C.H.Haskell]

Glad to here about the progress Jim...I am build #1781, would you consider my serial number up for delivery, at least prior to NAB?

crossing my fingers. :)

Cheers...and congrats.

[Jannard]

We have had several people wait to take delivery pending "coming out of Beta". Now is the time. If they don't step up, your number will come up more quickly.

Jim

[Rick Darge]

Jim... I've been ready for two long years.. With all do respect, I want my damn machine please. :) just wondering..why the sudden ultimatum post for 1-500?

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm ready and willing to take the plunge. So if any of the top 500 are dropping out I'm next in line. Just let me know when I can send you money. So close, so close.

Steve

[Nathan Garofalos]

That's awesome that the new cameras and firmware builds will be out soon. The sound on build 13 is great. I only got to hear it for a few seconds, but I know there wasn't any of the "noise" people were hearing in build 12. I can't wait to see build 14... then 15!!!

[Jannard]

Jim... I've been ready for two long years.. With all do respect, I want my damn machine please. :) just wondering..why the sudden ultimatum post for 1-500?

We have a handful of customers that are waiting for us to get out of Beta... we are now out.

Jim

[Mark Pedersen]

Great news! So if we're coming out of beta, and in full production can you provide an updated delivery schedule?

I'd love to see my camera before NAB.

M

[Jannard]

The schedule is predicated on people taking delivery. We should get a pretty good idea now that we are out of beta and people need to either commit or not. That will help determine the schedule.

Jim

[Poi Boy]

Congratulations Red Team!
Aloha
-A

[Mark Pedersen]

But if it's only a handful of people who need to commit, and we're talking hundreds of orders, can you give us a sense of where you are in the run and about how many you will ship per month in the next few months?

Or just give me a sense of when I should expect to get 1545? I was last told March.

Thanks!

[Shawn Nelson]

We have a handful of customers that are waiting for us to get out of Beta... we are now out.

Jim

Whoa, in all respect, how can you say that? We still don't have multiple monitor outputs (LCD + HDMI + HDSDI) which is a key primo feature I've been waiting for since day 1. Then there are a gaggle of smaller items such as random codec errors (Build 12), fans that get stuck on (Reds #103, 124 and 125), plus a list of even smaller things. You guys are definitely getting much closer to the mark, but declaring the beta to be over seems a little "Mission Accomplished" to me.

[Poi Boy]

Whoa, in all respect, how can you say that? We still don't have multiple monitor outputs (LCD + HDMI + HDSDI) which is a key feature. Then there are a gaggle of smaller items such as random codec errors (Build 12), fans that get stuck on (Reds #103, 124 and 125), plus a list of even smaller things. You guys are definitely getting much closer to the mark, but declaring the beta to be over seems a little "Mission Accomplished" to me.

Shawn,Jim says by the release of build 15 not today. I imagine all the things you mention will be solved.
Aloha
-A

[Shawn Nelson]

Okay, half point against me for not thoroughly reading the thread before posting (boo Shawn!), but in my defense, Jim did say "we are now out"

[S. Um]

Can you tell us what will be implemented in builds 14 and 15?

[Lauri Kettunen]

Jim, does coming out of beta imply you may now make a significant change in the production rate?

[Brice Ansel]

My partner and I, are considering using our red with, evf, red drive, and nikon mount for our thirst project. Hope everything will be in time.
Brice

[Warren Kommers]

Hmmmm....yes. Now might be the time to let the secret out about build 14 to prevent small 4-40 man riots per city all across the world. But I would say if the EVF, RedDrive, complete monitoring, good hardware, and 4k 30fps+ are available then that is fair. Increased latitude, sensitivity, and image characteristics can come over time or are they are what they are.

However in the end......It doesn't matter what f*%$ we think. He da boss. And I can respect that. However, viewfinders and dual link HDSDI monitoring are essential to my idea of a complete camera.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Shawn,Jim says by the release of build 15 not today. I imagine all the things you mention will be solved.
Aloha
-A

We "imagine", but we don't know for sure I think..

And I bet that RED don't know yet either because they know what they want to put in the builds but they can't be sure yet that it will work..
Otherwise Jim could tell us what Builds 14&15 contain, I am thinking..

[Mark L. Pederson]

Okay, half point against me for not thoroughly reading the thread before posting (boo Shawn!), but in my defense, Jim did say "we are now out"

Shawn -

One could argue semantics about what "beta" means - but in the technology industry - in my experience (and we beta for several major tech companies), it does NOT mean all features are enabled. It means what features are enabled are tested and stable. New features get enabled in FCP all the time. So, if you follow "industry standards" it is wrong to say Red is still in beta because they have not enabled a feature.

[Casey Green]

Looking forward to 14 and 15, but I happen to agree with Shawn about the Multiple outputs.

The out-of-beta should have EVF+LCD+HD-SDI. This is possible, is it not? We are planning on renting packages with this capability.

(perhaps this is in the new versions to come, but we are in the dark on that one).

[Karl H]

I added the rest of my accessories to my order yesterday and am waiting the final payment e-mail from Red. I have to say although I'm 'in', I'm still unsure whether this is a production model or not?

Reading the boards it concerns me that the camera boot time is over a minute. That some people are saying you can film no more than 20 mins before the fans stay on and the camera is too hot to touch; that there might be more physical changes to the body in the next 2 months pending user feedback, and that we might be waiting a long time before we have an editable codec on the PC. (Hopefully cineform can resolve some of these issues).

Im not saying Im out, I've been in since I placed my reservation in 2006 and Im not about to pull out. But I would like some assurance that these cameras are not going to be superceeded by new ones in a few months that leaves the early adopters needing to pay for upgrades.

If I hear 'no, we are shipping production worthy cameras and all the changes will be firmware only, at least for the forseeable future' then I'm in.

However, if you released a new model in April that had better heat distribution, a change in the hardware to reduce the boot time to 10 seconds, that had covers built in for all the connectors, then I'd still rather wait.

[TimPipher]

To make a cut and dried "Am I in or am I out" decision, wouldn't it be fair to be given a cut and dried list of what features will be enabled and which features won't?

[Andrew M.]

Okay, half point against me for not thoroughly reading the thread before posting (boo Shawn!), but in my defense, Jim did say "we are now out"

Jim said this "we are now out" in context of explaining to rgdfilmsRED his question of getting his delivery earlier since some people are waiting till RED is out of beta. So now we know when (build 15 in March) we will be out so some people will wait till then.

For me to upgrade the firmware from 13 to 15 is not a problem so I am not waiting.
If next batch of 250 cameras will not require any mechanical/PCB board changes then it is no brainer.
But it ain’t over till fat lady sings, so some people may wait for a bit.

Any fat lady that is ready to sing out there:-) ?

[Obin Olson]

I am soooo in and I have paid in full weeks ago... Jim can you note this?
looking for that red number #610!!!!!

[Ed Watkins]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way. But we will need to know. If you decide you are in (by Feb. 1) you have 30 days to make payment and accept delivery. We are really talking to serial #'s 1-500.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim

Just to clarify, this deadline only affects those people who have received emails (#1-500) and have not yet paid?

I assume that the next set of scheduled deliveries will also have 30 days to finalize their orders and pay, once they receive final production notices?

[Michael Hastings]

Shawn -

One could argue semantics about what "beta" means - but in the technology industry - in my experience (and we beta for several major tech companies), it does NOT mean all features are enabled. It means what features are enabled are tested and stable. New features get enabled in FCP all the time. So, if you follow "industry standards" it is wrong to say Red is still in beta because they have not enabled a feature.

True enough - everybody is fine with many of the very cool functions/features that are possible coming as future feature add-ons - but features that are standard functions on virtually all cameras shouldn't be looked at that way.


Looking forward to 14 and 15, but I happen to agree with Shawn about the Multiple outputs.

The out-of-beta should have EVF+LCD+HD-SDI. This is possible, is it not? We are planning on renting packages with this capability.

(perhaps this is in the new versions to come, but we are in the dark on that one).

I have my camera so no decision there, but in defense of what Shawn and others have said, IMHO it is reasonable to expect it to have stated functions and comparable functions to "normal" industry standard video cameras. i.e: one or the other of EVF or LCD, plus HD-SDI - we should be able to insist that it have an EVF and a working, genlockable HD-SDI output for live production or other monitoring.

*Plus the stated frame rates:
23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30 fps 4K
plus 50, 59.94, 60 fps 2K (windowed sensor)
Video Preview HD-SDI and HDMI
1280×720 progressive, 4:2:2

*Fully functioning audio.

*Readily available EVF and hard drives.
*Nikon "dumb" mount for those who reasonably relied on and anticipated this - it just shouldn't be that hard to do - even with the change in PL mount - as RED has known what the changes were for several months.
*Full cooperation with and support for Birger EOS mount, as it was a major PR announcement at NAB 2007 - on which many of us have relied.

*Some form of remote control - i.e. handheld ccu or at least a firm announcement and anticipated availability (not too long from now). This is a standard accessory with almost every professional/broadcast level camera and competing digital cine cameras - and someone should have been working on its development from day one, and since it basically is just a serial controller its development shouldn't have been affected by any of the imager, fan, circuit board, mount changes along the way.

With all that said, let me reiterate: I love this camera!!!

[Jay A. Kelley]

Welp....

Even when I was "a little upset" :) I had already sent RED all the money for the camera 3 weeks earlier.

I had concerns, but never doubted.

Personally I too would love the Nikon Mount and EVF... But I KNOW the Nikon mount is not close... So the EVF is fine, and I'll work out the lens situation.

Jay

[Hrvoje Simic]

Great news, Jim.

Since we should be in the next batch, I have a few questions.
Once our number is up and the money transfer is complete, how soon can the camera be shipped? I'm asking because we'll be abroad for most of March.

Also, there's a chance we could be in LA at the end of February so we would like to have it shipped to our friend and pick it up while we're there.
The tricky part is that we have to be in Europe by February 29th at the latest, so any info would be extremely helpful.

[Steven Caesare]

Seems to me some people are confusing beta test period for the camera hardware/firmware with accessory availability.

It's not uncommon for production accessory products to be back ordered, even at their introduction. That does not equate the "primary" item for which these accessories are intended being in beta, no?

[JVB]

I'm in...I'm just waiting for my final billing...

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn -

One could argue semantics about what "beta" means - but in the technology industry - in my experience (and we beta for several major tech companies), it does NOT mean all features are enabled. It means what features are enabled are tested and stable. New features get enabled in FCP all the time. So, if you follow "industry standards" it is wrong to say Red is still in beta because they have not enabled a feature.

I agree that features can still come in post-Beta, but when this feature is a major feature promised since before shipping, then it still prerequisite.

I've been in the software/hardware high-tech industry for 7 years now, and Red is getting very close to being out of Beta. Hopefully, as Jim is forecasting, Builds 14 and 15 fix the remaining bugs and enable the last major features. Then I look forward to the post-Beta builds of 16->?.

Now after re-reading Jim's posts, it seems he is saying they won't be out of Beta until Build 15 on March 1st, with the "out of Beta now" being a general term referring to Q1.

[Luke Boyce]

If we're in this batch, and we've already committed and paid, when do the cameras ACTUALLY start shipping?

[Miodrag Popovic]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way. But we will need to know. If you decide you are in (by Feb. 1) you have 30 days to make payment and accept delivery. We are really talking to serial #'s 1-500.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim

IIIIIIIIIIII aaaaaamm iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael Hastings]

Seems to me some people are confusing beta test period for the camera hardware/firmware with accessory availability.

It's not uncommon for production accessory products to be back ordered, even at their introduction. That does not equate the "primary" item for which these accessories are intended being in beta, no?

EVF isn't an accessory...

and a mount isn't really either if that is what you intended to use as your means of attaching the only lenses you have. The availability of a Nikon "dumb" mount - since it is basically a physical adaptation of a very, very, old, standard and common mount - is/was a reasonable assumption that they would have available immediately since it was announced almost from day one.

Again, I'm already in - paid for and received #206, and it does not affect me at all since I will use Birger Canon EOS smart mount or PL mount - but it's my 2 cents in support for those who planned on the Nikon mount.

[Miodrag Popovic]

If I am in, both parts have to be in, count on it :biggrin:

[Brent@RED]

Just to clarify, this deadline only affects those people who have received emails (#1-500) and have not yet paid?

I assume that the next set of scheduled deliveries will also have 30 days to finalize their orders and pay, once they receive final production notices?

To answer some general order questions....

When your camera delivery batch is close (about two weeks before we anticipate we will start shipping that batch), you will get an email from us with a bunch of info: what accessories you have on order, your contact info in our system, accessory recommendations, etc. Since many people placed their orders months ago, we know your contact info, etc. might have changed so we want to make sure your account is current. In that email, we will give you a window to call in/email in with changes as well as to go to RED.com and add accessories. As long as you use the same email address (ie, your login for RED.com orders), all of your orders will be lumped together under your master account. After that "add/drop/change" window ends, we will send you a second email with "here is your revised order and account information, we are ready for you to pay".

From the time you get that second email, you have (30) days to complete your purchase with RED (as Jim indicated in this thread).

As far as "how quickly will it ship after I pay?".... Our goal is to process orders in 3-5 business days. But, everyone also needs to have realistic expectations from the logistics side.

If we send out the 2nd email, we will get a wave of payments in. Which means we will get a wave of emails, calls, orders, pick/pack/ship requests, etc. Simple rule of thumb - within a batch, the quicker you pay, the quicker your order will be released for fulfillment processing.

Hope this clears some things up....

BC

[KETCH ROSSi]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way. But we will need to know. If you decide you are in (by Feb. 1) you have 30 days to make payment and accept delivery. We are really talking to serial #'s 1-500.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim


Jim,

I'm absolutely in, I have been from the very begin and talk any ones head off about RED, so I'll do what ever it takes to get my cameras.

I have received few e-mails about selling my RED as I'm having a bit of economical situation, but I'll take care of it, I absolutely want my cameras.

I just want you to know that I have not decided to postpone my delivery of #349 do to miss trust or non been happy were the REDs are at, but only because of finances.

I even put my beautiful house for sale, just so I can get my cameras as I care more about my REDs then my home ( my first one by the way, a true American dream ).

Any way 30 days seems more then fair and I'll do what ever it takes to meet the dead line.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Joel Kaye]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way. But we will need to know. If you decide you are in (by Feb. 1) you have 30 days to make payment and accept delivery. We are really talking to serial #'s 1-500.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim

I'm definitely in, but I have been holding off for the Birger Lens mount and an EVF. If I got it right now I'd have a $20,000 paper weight... but I'm in for the ride.

[redman]

Jims really got some awesome customers.
Willing to sell your house for red.
thats dedication

[KETCH ROSSi]

Jims really got some awesome customers.
Willing to sell your house for red.
thats dedication

Its not only dedication to Jim and his incredible product, RED ONE, it is
unconditional dedication to my dreams and projects for which I'm willing to not only sale my house but my SUV as well as anything to get my cameras.

Understanding that once my cameras are in my hands in less then one year I'll buy an other house ( even a bigger one ).

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Finner]

I have always planned to only get the EVF as I have other LCD options. I really just don't see the camera being out of Beta until the EVF's are ready to ship with the cameras and all multiple video out options are enabled.

The red team has been trying to get multiple video (EVF, LCD, SDI, HDMI) out ability for a long time now (over 6 months) and it still does not yet work. I am getting a little concerned about when or evin if multiple video out puts will even be a possibility?

[Brent@RED]

I have always planned to only get the EVF as I have other LCD options. I really just don't see the camera being out of Beta until the EVF's are ready to ship with the cameras and all multiple video out options are enabled.

The red team has been trying to get multiple video (EVF, LCD, SDI, HDMI) out ability for a long time now (over 6 months) and it still does not yet work. I am getting a little concerned about when or evin if multiple video out puts will even be a possibility?

EVFs have started to ship in limited quantities to customers in order of serial number. Production ramps up in February on EVFs so we should be clearing out the backorders at a quicker pace. So, I would not consider it to be within the "out of beta" discussion.

As far as multiple output options, we are working on it. We hear clearly that people are wanting this feature. I can understand people wanting what they want "now", but there is no reason for "concern". "Impatience", that I can understand.

Thanks, BC

[Harry Clark]

Money wired.
Extra accessories ordered.
Standing by.
Eagerly.
Harry

[dewaldaukema]

Jim,
Always have been in, waiting for email and list of available acc's to finalise my order and amount owed>
Best
RED#685

[Jim Logan]

IN ALL THE WAY! I think that Jim just wants to drive home the point that now is the time to make a firm comittment - after all RED needs to plan production schedules, order materials, and get on with growing their business. We need to remember that, even though RED is a new paradigm, it is still a for profit business and can't indefinitely hold your reservation until you decide they are up to your standards. Everything has a cutoff point and they have been VERY generous in that regard.

If there are any Doubting Thomases simply remember what the RED team has accomplished in the last two years - I don't think they are suddenly going to stop and sit on their duffs. You just have to grow & go with it.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thanks, Brent. That helps a lot.

[Cisaro]

I added the rest of my accessories to my order yesterday and am waiting the final payment e-mail from Red. I have to say although I'm 'in', I'm still unsure whether this is a production model or not?

Reading the boards it concerns me that the camera boot time is over a minute. That some people are saying you can film no more than 20 mins before the fans stay on and the camera is too hot to touch; that there might be more physical changes to the body in the next 2 months pending user feedback, and that we might be waiting a long time before we have an editable codec on the PC. (Hopefully cineform can resolve some of these issues).

Im not saying Im out, I've been in since I placed my reservation in 2006 and Im not about to pull out. But I would like some assurance that these cameras are not going to be superceeded by new ones in a few months that leaves the early adopters needing to pay for upgrades.

If I hear 'no, we are shipping production worthy cameras and all the changes will be firmware only, at least for the forseeable future' then I'm in.

However, if you released a new model in April that had better heat distribution, a change in the hardware to reduce the boot time to 10 seconds, that had covers built in for all the connectors, then I'd still rather wait.

You can parallel some Bricks together into a hot swappable battery mount, you just need a good electrical engineer to help you out. Then you get infinite power. I've been working on the idea because I want to be able to do 24hr time laps in the middle of nowhere with out a gene and with out having to deviate into other equipment.

There are cheap non-mechanical heat transfer devices that work on 12 volts that you can strap to the side of the camera to pull off excess heat and keep the camera cooler. They cost like $60.
Its a fix for the heat issues, which I think suck a bit. It would be great if the camera was rated to 116 Fahrenheit.

[PaulClements]

As far as multiple output options, we are working on it.
Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

[Dylan Reeve]

As one of those who won't own a camera, but will be working with the media after the fact, I most interested in what this 'Out of Beta' means for workflow and tools? Is an SDK likely to follow soon after? What about the other tool? Are codecs being licenced to other NLE manufacturers now?

That's what I'm really hanging out for... Although, hey, good luck with you EVFs and stuff guys :)

[LighthouseMEdia]

Hmmmmm....I;m not sure its fair to declare an ultimatum until the non beta versions have been released and tested I mean there is still alot of issues and some of the accessories are either unavailable or untested with latest builds etc..In all fairness how can we make a judgment call at this stage of the game? It seems like once build 15 was actually released and tested then you could make that call, and we would just have to chose are we happy with the camera where it is today enough to commit to purchase or not? But alot hinges on seeing those last remaining pieces come together.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

We have had several people wait to take delivery pending "coming out of Beta". Now is the time. If they don't step up, your number will come up more quickly.

Jim

VERY good idea.. how that will reflects on other reservation numbers holders ?:huh:

[Anthony Gratl]

Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

For me, the evf is something to wait on, and it sounds like they're coming down the pipe imminently. But the multiple video outputs has always been an important function of the basic camera. And my understanding was, and I haven't gone back to pull the quotes from Jim, although I know he mentioned it several times, was that noone had to buy the camera until the basic functions were enabled. And that was always mentioned as one of them. So this twist is somewhat confusing, given that it appears that the multiple video outputs aren't enabled in builds 14 or 15. Perhaps someone from Red could confirm that those outputs will indeed be part of one of those next two builds.....?

EDIT: by wait on the evf, I meant that I view it as a non-critical (and therefore non beta) element to the camera, unlike the multi outputs and 1080p recording

[Steven Caesare]

EVF isn't an accessory...

and a mount isn't really either if that is what you intended to use as your means of attaching the only lenses you have. The availability of a Nikon "dumb" mount - since it is basically a physical adaptation of a very, very, old, standard and common mount - is/was a reasonable assumption that they would have available immediately since it was announced almost from day one.

Again, I'm already in - paid for and received #206, and it does not affect me at all since I will use Birger Canon EOS smart mount or PL mount - but it's my 2 cents in support for those who planned on the Nikon mount.

Sure they're accessories, even if critical ones for you. Notice they are on the "Accessories" page of the RED site.

The camera/firmware will be out of beta before some items even go IN to beta. Other accessories may have overlapping periods. It's simply not fair to criticize Red for having a separate schedule for differing items, as if that makes the camera coming out of beta somehow an "incorrect" notion to some.

This announcement should make you happy, BTW.

[Steve Sherrick]

Most software that is out on the market today is what I would consider beta. Lots of things are rushed to market due to internal deadlines, marketing people pushing to meet their bottom lines whether product is ready or not. We don't have to look far to see this, just check out any of the top NLEs and we all have a list of bugs. Does it mean we can't work with the technology? Of course not, we do everyday. I guess the question is where do you draw the line between beta and an acceptable production model?

In the case of Red, as it stands right now the camera seems to still be beta and they admit that. But they might have made some serious progress with these upcoming builds that will be significant enough to bring the camera into production-ready condition.

I do agree that if multiple outputs are not enabled this poses a challenge to many of us as this feature will be demanded on set. Here is a checklist of items that make it production ready to me and the status of each.

Solid PL mount (Done. Not hearing too many complaints, assume this is good to go)

EVF availability (starting to ship, ramping up production- good news)

Heat/cold specs improved (Done. Maybe not as good as some would like but they did respond and fixed problems)

Multiple Outputs (Not implemented yet. A dealbreaker if it doesn't happen this year. But Red is on it, so assume we will see it sooner rather then later)

Boot Time of 30 seconds or less (This one is subjective. For some, maybe not a dealbreaker, for others could be if it remains at the current boot time)

CF Module improvements (Numerous reports of damaged cards due to the way cards are loaded into module. Design flaw or user error?)

Battery mount (is it solid or are there issues? Reports vary. Won't consider this a dealbreaker, but there does seem to be opinion about this mount)

Formats (final frame rate capabilities, 1080P/720P firmware options, etc) I suppose the camera can be production ready with additional formats to be offered in the future.

Compression (If the compression is holding up for features that will be showing in theaters, then to me it's production ready with the caveat that improvements will continue to happen as storage gets faster, larger, and cheaper)

Accessory availability. (essentials such as the EVF, storage, batteries, etc are being delivered now so I think this qualifies Red as production ready. Things like Nikon mount, although important to many people might fall under the non-essential for camera to be called production-ready. That doesn't mean people who order one should be happy about it, but in fairness to Red, they're doing all they can to make sure the camera performs as advertised.)

Redcine/Red Alert (They are available and that means we have a way to get footage into post. But we need versions that are faster than current versions. This will come in time, but is challenging as it stands now)

Clean audio. (still awaiting thorough user testing until I can do my own but clean audio is essential to being ready for prime-time. Perhaps it's already there and user error accounts for some of the problems that have been mentioned)

I'm probably missing some things, but a short list of the things that get Red closer to being a production-ready camera for me. Obviously there are many things we'd like to see available but these are the ones I see important to getting the camera out of beta.

Steve

[Keith Alan Morris]

Damn, folks, its gotta be hard to cram 10 lbs of sh*t into a 5 lb bag. lets get our cameras in our grubby paws first and appreciate the builds when they come! things are gonna keep getting pushed and pushed and pushed back if every tom dick and harry has their say. Every new build has the potential to eff something else up. Just let em RELEASE THE BEAST!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Using "production used" as a basis for whether something is in beta or not is a very hit and miss technique. Lots of studios use alpha software in production because it does things nobody else can do. They also use software that is 5 years out of date because it's bullet proof. It all depends on how flexible the tool needs to be.

The more people who use it the more flexibile has to be and the more demanding the community will be of the tool. This is well demonstrated by the split between those who view the EVF as a basic feature and those who don't.

I however view cinema equipment differently from software. If my copy of Nuke crashes and I have to reboot it costs me 25 seconds of my time. If my camera goes down 40 people lose the time. There becomes that cost per second of down time equation to factor in the damage of a problem. Which is why I see most software analogies as flawed when in relation to production equipment. The exceptions in the software industry being mission critical server applications which many people depend on or client session software like Davinci.

I'm not commenting on the state of REDOne one way or another, just the Tao of "Beta".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Jim said but from how I read it, it is a bit odd to require an order confirmation "Because we're out of beta with Build 14" the day before Build 14 ships or possibly even will be announced. Seems like 5 days of overlap would be expected so that people can make a delivery confirmation once the initial feedback from the "non beta" cameras start coming out.

[Brent@RED]

Brent are you suggesting that this hasn't even been resolved for build 14 or 15 if you are still working on it?

I agree with Finner that EVF and multiple video outputs are required for a camera to be considered by the vast majority as ready or none beta. They seem to be the most common complaints about the camera.

Paul

I am not letting cats out of any bags. :tongue:

BC

[SF Geek]

I sure hope those cats come out of the bag sooner than later. By the way I'm going to assume that cameras 501-700 should forget about receiving a camera this month. I figure that I'll be the one to say it since it seems to be very hard for Red to admit.

[Poi Boy]

This thread is becoming a bit silly caught up in semantics. Call it beta call it whatever...This camera is amazing as are the folks behind it. It makes brilliant images right now; it improves all the time and probably will continue to do so. I want my evf and multiple outputs as much as the next guy and gal but I would rather have my camera without those things than no camera at all. When those things arrive, and they will arrive, they will be gravy !
Aloha
-A

[Finner]

This thread is becoming a bit silly caught up in semantics. Call it beta call it whatever...This camera is amazing as are the folks behind it. It makes brilliant images right now; it improves all the time and probably will continue to do so. I want my evf and multiple outputs as much as the next guy and gal but I would rather have my camera without those things than no camera at all. When those things arrive, and they will arrive, they will be gravy !
Aloha
-A

In my line of work a viewfinder and the ability to send out a video signal to a director and video village at the same time are basic features and nothing close to gravy!

[Shawn Nelson]

In my line of work a viewfinder and the ability to send out a video signal to a director and video village are basic features and nothing close to gravy!

Ditto. I've been severely handicapped from day 1 about not being able to have LCD + monitor. I know some have double ganged HDSDI monitors, but I can't afford that.

[Poi Boy]

Then shoot film and come back in a couple of months. I'm sure your clients won't mind.
Aloha
-A

[Shawn Nelson]

Then shoot film and come back in a couple of months. I'm sure your clients won't mind.
Aloha
-A

Cheeky

[Finner]

Ya I guess I will just have to keep working with proffesional gear until it is ready.

[Mark L. Pederson]

He is #27 ... this boy needs an EVF!!

[Poi Boy]

Ya I guess I will just have to keep working with proffesional gear until it is ready.

exactly, your words, not mine. If you want the red benefits now put up with the temporary short comings, explain them to you clients and make a decision.
I saw the Hoff at our mall recently.. he is abig guy !
Aloha
-A

[Finner]

I saw the Hoff at our mall recently.. he is abig guy !
Aloha
-A

Are you flirting with me now?

[Alexander Nikishin]

lol, you guys are oddballs.

[Jarred Land]

Ok.. showing up a little late to the party but i need to clear a few things up.

First of all for multiple outputs... Multiple Outputs is enabled, just not ALL outputs. You can run the EVF, HDMI and SDI all at the same time and get video to everywhere you need it to go. now. LCD+ everything is coming.. but you can always use a 3rd party HD-SDI monitor onboard plus EVF+ HD-SDI etc if you need to until then.

EVF.. the EVF is not in beta anymore.. its done and its shipping, albeit in small numbers now. That will change. And the EVF is an accessory, for all of you that deem it a requirement, there are just as many that don't.

For you guys that still have a problem with the "features" not being complete... wait till build 14 and 15 before you make a judgement.

Trust me, it is worth the wait.

[Alexander Nikishin]

You have to remember though Jarred, hardly anyone owns an EVF as of yet and some won't be purchasing one even when they are readily available. On the other hand, everyone who owns a RED owns an LCD.

Running with a large onboard monitor such as the Panasonic or even a lighter Marshall or Astro is still extra weight and makes the rig a bit more time consuming to move and hook up, plus it adds an extra cost.

Enabling LCD+all outputs should be a top priority.

Hopefully build 14 fixes that. I'm sure it will be fixed, but I'm just surprised that this feature hasn't been enabled much earlier if not right out the gate.

[Mark Pugh]

the EVF is not in beta anymore.. its done and its shipping, albeit in small numbers now. That will change.

Jarred -
So if a reservation on an EVF is placed today, roughly when will it be shipped?

[Jannard]

We have a history of supporting our customers. We are replacing 100 cameras at N/C which supports that point. All we are saying is that we are coming out of Beta and if you have a reservation, it is time to make a decision if you want your camera. Pretty simple. If you decide to take your camera and are unhappy, what do you think your options are? We'll take it back. But you need to step up now. Take your camera or lose your place.

If you really believe we won't make you happy, then by all means... get your money back. But if you are in for the ride, take delivery.

If you are uncertain, ask the 1st 100 if the are happy they took the leap.

Jim

[Damien Molineaux]

You have to remember though Jarred, hardly anyone owns an EVF as of yet and some won't be purchasing one even when they are readily available. On the other hand, everyone who owns a RED owns an LCD.

Running with a large onboard monitor such as the Panasonic or even a lighter Marshall or Astro is still extra weight and makes the rig a bit more time consuming to move and hook up, plus it adds an extra cost.

Enabling LCD+all outputs should be a top priority.

Hopefully build 14 fixes that. I'm sure it will be fixed, but I'm just surprised that this feature hasn't been enabled much earlier if not right out the gate.

I beg to differ. I've always preffered to work with an EVF rather than an LCD. I've only ordered the EVF and not the LCD. I'm purchasing a third party LCD as an option but that's what it is for me, an option, while the EVF is for me a requirement. Only cheapo handycams don't have an EVF, but many pro cameras (all film cameras) only have an EVF. It's a question of preference of course, but I'm sure I'm not the only one in this case.

Cheers,
Damien

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

FIRST POST

If you have a serial number up for delivery, it is time for you to decide if you are in or out. We will have no problem with your decision either way.

AND NOW


if you have a reservation, it is time to make a decision if you want your camera. Pretty simple. If you decide to take your camera and are unhappy, what do you think your options are? We'll take it back. But you need to step up now. Take your camera or lose your place.

If you really believe we won't make you happy, then by all means... get your money back.

Jim thanks for all your efforts developing this amazing camera. but
i wonder who tells you that we are unhappy with this camera. ?:angry2:
as i understand from your latest posts that there is a lot of people unsatisfied
with the camera .:wacko: it is thier decision.
so dosn't that mean not all of us unhappy with it. for me i didn't even see it or test it
all i know about it is from forum and disscusions and i will never let it go.
only time will proove that is the ONE ..RED ONE

[Jarred Land]

On the other hand, everyone who owns a RED owns an LCD.

not true..


Enabling LCD+all outputs should be a top priority.
but I'm just surprised that this feature hasn't been enabled much earlier if not right out the gate.

easy to say.. but not so easy to do. The LCD has a completely different resolution than the rest of the chain.. so you need to send it a completely different feed.

[Jannard]

Earthling... your order will be shipped with an EVF. Do you have a reservation? I'll make sure your EVF ships with your order. I remember Claudio saying it is the best EVF in the industry.

Jim

[Michael Lindsay]

... The LCD has a completely different resolution than the rest of the chain.. so you need to send it a completely different feed.

Would it be worth considering a 2nd LCD that had the same resolution.. This could be a higher end unit that sells with the 1st one. Maybe a little larger as well.

I'd be happy to pay a little more for a higher resolution LCD anyway. The extra functionality would just be a bonus.

regards

Michael Lindsay

[Martin Drew]

As I seem to recall Jim did say that it was okay to wait until EVERYTHING was complete before having to pay. Obviously the continual development process means that the definition of "complete" is going to be open to interpretation but it would seem to be reasonable to expect it to include include basic pre-announced specs like all multiple outs working. So hopefully 15 will sort that.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=97201&postcount=41

M

[Hans von Sonntag]

I beg to differ. I've always preffered to work with an EVF rather than an LCD. I've only ordered the EVF and not the LCD. I'm purchasing a third party LCD as an option but that's what it is for me, an option, while the EVF is for me a requirement. Only cheapo handycams don't have an EVF, but many pro cameras (all film cameras) only have an EVF. It's a question of preference of course, but I'm sure I'm not the only one in this case.

Cheers,
Damien

I second that.

Hans

[Michael Lindsay]

Earthling... your order will be shipped with an EVF. Do you have a reservation? I'll make sure your EVF ships with your order. I remember Claudio saying it is the best EVF in the industry.

Jim

Hi

I will really struggle to use my cameras without a EVF. Will mine ship with the EVF.. ??

thanks

Michael Lindsay

PS Reading Claudio post on the F23/red test really excited me about the viewfinder!

[Jannard]

Hi

I will really struggle to use my cameras without a EVF. Will mine ship with the EVF.. ??

thanks

Michael Lindsay

Absolutely....

Jim

[Jarred Land]

you can wait as long as you want Martin.. you just move to the back of the line.

[Michael Lindsay]

Absolutely....

Jim

Thank you for that news!!!

One 10 letter word and my day feels great!

Up until then I was accepting only doing half my work with my Reds.

briliant!

Thanks again

Michael Lindsay

[Rick Darge]

Will mine ship with the Evf? : (

[Christian Berg]

How about mine???
#440

[Martin Drew]

you can wait as long as you want Martin.. you just move to the back of the line.

That wasn't how I understood Jims original post :biggrin:

M

[Damien Molineaux]

Earthling... your order will be shipped with an EVF. Do you have a reservation? I'll make sure your EVF ships with your order. I remember Claudio saying it is the best EVF in the industry.

Jim

Wow ! Nice to hear. I hope you're not getting ahead of yourself. Of course I have a reservation, the D I typed in where we can indicate our Red One # is my number (in roman numerals). I am #500, the last one in the coming batch of deliveries. It would be nice to get my EVF at the same time as my camera, yet I understand you are backordered and it is normal to deliver earlier numbers first, so, as soon as possible, but don't hold on to my camera until you have an EVF :-) thank you. And yes, I believe it is the best EVF in the industry, for the best camera in the industry.

There is at present only one Red in Switzerland, Daniel Reichbach's (Artbeatstart) #222. We are meeting tomorrow to develop redswiss.ch However there is quite a buzz about red here in Geneva, I believe I have the only reservation here. We keep getting calls of people either wanting to reserve it or DOPs wanting to test it. Red #500 has numerous projects waiting for it.

Cheers,
Damien

[Jay A. Kelley]

Well I am not going to ask about mine since I already know it may or may not ship with an EVF.

But I am told if I do not get my EVF with the camera, it would only be a couple weeks behind it.

Still, Jim, I'm in the same boat, and EVF and no LCD for the time being. So do your best.

Jay

[Greg M]

nobody gets an EVF until I get mine :)

[Douglas Underdahl]

Hello Jim and everyone -

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but here goes -

A bunch of folks have been asking me to make up Nikon and BNCR mounts for the RED. I'm pretty sure that I can do this and offer them up in the price/spirit of the RED camera, like $500 - $750 each.

I just need engineering specs and/or a RED camera to examine. So far no one has jumped at loaning me a camera for a day (I'm in NJ about an hour from NYC) so I thought I'd ask you, Jim, for this. I think someone said that you were asking if a third party would make up these mounts since you were behind on them, or?

Douglas Underdahl
Long Valley Equipment
www.longvallleyequip.com

[R. Gonzales]

Hello Jim, Jarred,

When do expect 1080 multiple frame rates to be enabled in build #2

Method

[Brent J. Craig]

I think it is reasonable to consider the term 'out of beta' to mean, at the very least, that something is feature-complete.

We have been promised 1080p recording and reasonable-on-set bootup times.
Until we see those, it's still beta.

And how can builds 14 and 15 be non-beta if no one has even been able to use them yet?

[Martin Drew]

I think it is reasonable to consider the term 'out of beta' to mean, at the very least, that something is feature-complete.

We have been promised 1080p recording and reasonable-on-set bootup times.
Until we see those, it's still beta.

And how can builds 14 and 15 be non-beta if no one has even been able to use them yet?

I wouldn't take it as meaning that. Out of beta just implies the version has been acceptably debugged, if there are some feature not enabled that is a separate issue, but I don't feel that implies a beta description.

M

[Martin Drew]

Hello Jim and everyone -

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but here goes -

A bunch of folks have been asking me to make up Nikon and BNCR mounts for the RED. I'm pretty sure that I can do this and offer them up in the price/spirit of the RED camera, like $500 - $750 each.

I just need engineering specs and/or a RED camera to examine. So far no one has jumped at loaning me a camera for a day (I'm in NJ about an hour from NYC) so I thought I'd ask you, Jim, for this. I think someone said that you were asking if a third party would make up these mounts since you were behind on them, or?

Douglas Underdahl
Long Valley Equipment
www.longvallleyequip.com

Doug

I think you put too many LLLs in your URL :biggrin:

M

[Jarred Land]

We have been promised 1080p recording and reasonable-on-set bootup times. Until we see those, it's still beta.


Red has never made those promises...

i always knew no matter how many times we plastered the "specs change" statement everywhere and yelled it out, someday someone would pretend to not have heard it.

[Greg M]

And how can builds 14 and 15 be non-beta if no one has even been able to use them yet?

correct me if I'm wrong, but the only party here that can say when beta ends is the manufacture.

btw- what was said is that with the release of FW15, the beta program ends. Since they have not released yet, we are still considered beta. You will be able to use them when they are released, which effectivly ends the beta versions.

[Kjetil Haugen]

Red has never made those promises...

i always knew no matter how many times we plastered the "specs change" statement everywhere and yelled it out, someday someone would pretend to not have heard it.

Hehe. Well put, Jarred. Sometimes things are best explained with the least amount of words..

[Shawn Nelson]

If you are uncertain, ask the 1st 100 if the are happy they took the leap.

Jim

Aye, I am very happy! Thanks for clarrifying things Jim. I'm looking forward to these next two builds!

[Douglas Underdahl]

it is

www.longvalleyequip.com

Doug

[Thor Wixom]

If you are uncertain, ask the 1st 100 if the are happy they took the leap.

Jim

Or ask the first 137... :biggrin:

Happy is an understatement.

-Thor

[Sean]

Hello Jim and everyone -

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but here goes -

A bunch of folks have been asking me to make up Nikon and BNCR mounts for the RED. I'm pretty sure that I can do this and offer them up in the price/spirit of the RED camera, like $500 - $750 each.

I just need engineering specs and/or a RED camera to examine. So far no one has jumped at loaning me a camera for a day (I'm in NJ about an hour from NYC) so I thought I'd ask you, Jim, for this. I think someone said that you were asking if a third party would make up these mounts since you were behind on them, or?

Douglas Underdahl
Long Valley Equipment
www.longvallleyequip.com

Yeah, I do recall Jim putting out an invite to third parties for Nikon mounts cuz they were a bit snowed under developing the PL mount. I couldn't find that post, but I did find this one:


The redesign of our lens mount system is a huge advancement, but until it is done... the re-work of a Nikon mount cannot begin.

I understand that there are two small companies that plan to make a Nikon adaptor as soon as we ship the new mount. I can't say who they are, but maybe they will step up here and announce their intentions? One has said he could supply a Nikon mount within two weeks of seeing our new mount.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

just a FYI. re-work of the Nikon Mount has just begun :)

[planet e]

an interesting and valuable discussion.

on one hand, i completely agree with Offhollywood's point that all features do not have to be enabled for a product to be considered out of beta. frequent or periodic upgrades and the enabling new features is now a standard practice for most tech products.

on the other hand, i completely agree with Aquavideo's excellent list of what should be enabled in order to meet industry standards for a professional camera: working EVF, genlockable HD-SDI output for live monitoring, fully functioning audio, functional stated frame rates, nikon mount, and a remote.

so...it better be totally complete right now dammit, but i'll joyously take it anyway, even if it's not, fer cryin out loud!

kind of head-spinning....

i'm sure they will get there with all of these items, some seem on the verge or, like the EVF, are already in play with production ramping.

as far as they have come already, in such a short time, with with all of these better-than-expected goodies...

...and with a 4K display and scarlet, etc. ready for prototype...

if jim says that Build 15/March 1 is the point at which the camera is considered officially out of beta, then i feel confident that he will deliver the most urgent of these needs/requirements one month and one week from now.

one month in RED time is a long time.

now jim, if you could just do something about this t-shirt. the back is fine, the build quality is great, but that logo on the front is not at all flattering to the female chest. ugh. i am giving this to my nephew.

[Finner]

Earthling... your order will be shipped with an EVF. Do you have a reservation? I'll make sure your EVF ships with your order. I remember Claudio saying it is the best EVF in the industry.

Jim

Can I get in on that deal Jim? (#993)

On your request I would even be willing to change my Avatar again if you wish. I just need the EVF with my camera.

cheers
Daren

[Mark L. Pederson]

Can I get in on that deal Jim? (#993)

On your request I would even be willing to change my Avatar again if you wish. I just need the EVF with my camera.

cheers
Daren

I may send you one of mine to get that Avatar to go away!!!

[Greg M]

send me one of yours or I am going to show up at your new office in a speedo and hang out in the lobby all afternoon.

[Mark L. Pederson]

send me one of yours or I am going to show up at your new office in a speedo and hang out in the lobby all afternoon.

Good luck with that.:clown2:

[Jason Ing]

Considering Jim's high quality standards (look at what's being done on "beta" cameras right now), I'm confident that Jim's definition of beta is more then good enough. So if he says it's out of beta, it's out of beta. The rest are just features that will eventually come in the future.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Fingers crossed.

(For the Nikon mount, not for the speedo offer)

[Stephen Williams]

Hello Jim and everyone -

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but here goes -

A bunch of folks have been asking me to make up Nikon and BNCR mounts for the RED. I'm pretty sure that I can do this and offer them up in the price/spirit of the RED camera, like $500 - $750 each.

I just need engineering specs and/or a RED camera to examine. So far no one has jumped at loaning me a camera for a day (I'm in NJ about an hour from NYC) so I thought I'd ask you, Jim, for this. I think someone said that you were asking if a third party would make up these mounts since you were behind on them, or?

Douglas Underdahl
Long Valley Equipment
www.longvallleyequip.com

Hi Douglas,

You should be aware that Ultracam made a variation on the BNCR mount, all BNCR mounts work on the Ultracam camera but other camera mounts need adapting for Ultracam lenses. They show up on Ebay fairly often I have 2 sets so I can give you any information you require or possibly send you a lens.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Earthling... your order will be shipped with an EVF. Do you have a reservation? I'll make sure your EVF ships with your order. I remember Claudio saying it is the best EVF in the industry.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Earthling has a camera ordered, it should ship this month.

Stephen

[PaulClements]

Hi Jim,

Earthling has a camera ordered, it should ship this month.

Stephen
Well if that's true then there will be a lot of pissed people in the 1-300 category still waiting for their EVF's to be delivered. I didn't really want to order the LCD but I was told the wait for the EVF could be quite a while.

Paul

[Jason Ing]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but it kept being mentioned, so... What's the difference between an LCD and EVF? (aside from the obvious). For the people who prefer the EVF, why? Pros and Cons? (I'm planning LCD).

[Rick Darge]

Same here. I didnt want to get the Red LCD either but then again, it isnt too be at all. I do love how light weight that thing is.

[Jannard]

My error on the EVF... I'm out of state and heard the right answer to the wrong question.

Jim

[Brent@RED]

Let's clarify here on EVFs...

EVFs began shipping in order of reservation number this month. We had VERY limited numbers to ship. Production already has been ramping up and we will start delivering again (as soon as early next week) to fulfill backorders. So, yes, Shawn will get his before Greg, and so forth :)

Here is how the EVF backorder fulfillment process works. As soon as we have EVFs ready to ship out, we will contact people in order of reservation number. As soon as they get back to us, we will process their order. This process will be in place until all backorders are fulfilled and we are shipping EVFs realtime with camera orders.

As I said, production on EVFs is ramping up. So, people receiving your cameras now or soon, you will not have a long time to wait until your EVF shows up on your doorstep.

Earthling, we can most definitely ship your EVF with your camera, if you want us to hold you camera until the EVF is ready? I already know the answer is "no" :)

If anyone has ANY questions regarding EVFs, do not hesitate to PM or email me.

BC

[Thor Wixom]

Brent,

I'm assuming that if I already paid for my EVF, I won't need to be contacted for anything other than to be given a tracking number. Is this correct?

-Thor

[Brent@RED]

Brent,

I'm assuming that if I already paid for my EVF, I won't need to be contacted for anything other than to be given a tracking number. Is this correct?

-Thor

We always want to confirm shipping address, don't know if you will be on set or such. If paid, it will be ready to ship and waiting for the green light....

BC

[Alexander Christ]

Brent, thanks for clarifying. What about the RED Drives, shipping or backorder?

Cheers!

[Brent@RED]

RED DRIVES are shipping with all new orders real-time.

BC

[Alexander Christ]

excellent

[Chris Parker]

So...the cameras are coming out of beta. what about REDCine? Same timing on that?

(Note:I didn't read every post in this long thread, so excuse me if this has already been answered)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If the choice is take the camera as is or go to the back of the line I find no fault with that. Certain features/accessories can be convincingly described as essential for professional use but cannot be strictly equated with "coming out of beta".

The camera is great and getting better. If it has to have certain capabilities for you to use it for paid work with your client base that it does not yet have, then use a different camera for those gigs.

It seems to me that the Red Leader is just trying to sort the reservation, payment, shipping issues and his policy seems fair to me. Just one man's opinion and we all know what that's worth :wacko:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hey, when the iPhone was first released it was crashing left and right.

But, it wasn't an iPhoneBeta.

It still regularly gets updates with new features.

So does the RED.

At this point, (Build 13) RED doesn't crash at all.

RED is out of beta.....

[Damien Molineaux]

Let's clarify here on EVFs...

...

As I said, production on EVFs is ramping up. So, people receiving your cameras now or soon, you will not have a long time to wait until your EVF shows up on your doorstep.

Earthling, we can most definitely ship your EVF with your camera, if you want us to hold you camera until the EVF is ready? I already know the answer is "no" :)

...

As I said in my reply to Jim, post #89. I think Jim got ahead of himself. obviously he hadn't realized my camera was about to ship. There is no reason I should get my EVF before those that already have their cameras, and indeed, Brent there is no doubt, please send my camera NOW, and my EVF soon! :-D

Cheers,
Damien

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This thread is becoming a bit silly caught up in semantics. Call it beta call it whatever...This camera is amazing as are the folks behind it.


Note the title of this thread is not "RED Camera is amazing and so are the people who sell it."

There are enough of those threads already. This is a thread about "coming out of beta." Therefore don't act surprised when people discuss that topic.

[Alexander Nikishin]

easy to say.. but not so easy to do. The LCD has a completely different resolution than the rest of the chain.. so you need to send it a completely different feed.

Understood Jarred, all I meant to say was that many RED owners currently have possession of their RED LCD's and have for months now. (Many being atleast around 75 % of current cam holders)

Only a handfull, (and this is all a guesstimate at this point) aside from a select few have possession of RED EVF's.

I've understood that the LCD delivers a lower res feed which is creating the delay we now have on mutiple outs + LCD, but I would have thought that if any feed should have been stressed in the chain to be delivered first it would have been the one most were going to be using out the gate.

With that being said, where's my beautiful EVF? :biggrin:

[sbove]

you can wait as long as you want Martin.. you just move to the back of the line.

Post 1: Does this mean if I opt out of the current batch I get moved to the end of the line WITH my $2500 accessory credit?

Post 2: OK...just got the answer to this from Nate at Red. The $2500 accessory credit gets forfeited if reservation holders in this batch (through cam 500) pass and go to the end of the line...

[Shawn Bannon]

What about the on-line store coming out of BETA? I would love to have more of a description of the items in the on-line store. Right now you have to search around the site to find out all the specs.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Gotta ask: We're #712, and going to be using Nikon lenses exclusively. It'd be really depressing to get our cam next month or so and not use it until the Nikon mount is available. Is there a provision to allow waiting to receive the camera once the Nikon mount is shipping as well? *praying* :biggrin:


just a FYI. re-work of the Nikon Mount has just begun :)

[Brent@RED]

Does this mean if I opt out of the current batch I get moved to the end of the line WITH my $2500 accessory credit?

Accessory credit stays with camera serial number. if you move to the back of the line, you will have a different serial number.

FYI, we will be sending out an email in the next few days to everyone in the first 500 who has not taken delivery of their camera so even people not on REDUSER 24/7 will have this info :)

Thanks, BC

[Douglas Underdahl]

Thanks for that heads up, Stephen. I never heard about the Ultracam BNCR mounted lenses being different. I'd be grateful if you could email me the specs that make them different.

Doug

[Antoine Fabi]

Brent,

Maybe it's my poor english...

I have #403 reservation..., made the deposit long time ago etc...

I tried today to order accessories before making a global wire transfer next week.

I ended receiving a order form including a new camera...

I'm not able to have an invoice with my #403 camera, minus the original deposit, plus acessories, minus the 2500$ credit.

I sent a email to sales@red... waiting.

the store/account is really difficult to work with...really...

Now, how do i see my account ?

I want my camera and accessories, and i'm ready to pay next week.

thanks

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

What about the on-line store coming out of BETA? I would love to have more of a description of the items in the on-line store. Right now you have to search around the site to find out all the specs.

That's a great point! I'd love to see weights, dimensions and explanations of what everything is and how we might use it.

[Mike]

I have sent sales@red an email too, about transferring the deposit i paid for 18-85mm to the 18-50mm lens. Awaiting the reply so that I can make the final payment to Red.

And i also asked about the LCD and EVF cable, do I need to order them or does it come with the LCD and EVF?

[Alexander Nikishin]

And i also asked about the LCD and EVF cable, do I need to order them or does it come with the LCD and EVF?

Both the LCD and EVF come with a lemo video/power cable.

[R. Gonzales]

Red has never made those promises...

i always knew no matter how many times we plastered the "specs change" statement everywhere and yelled it out, someday someone would pretend to not have heard it.

Hello Jarred,

Would you mind qualifying this statement by Jim please:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=106246&postcount=2

Now I am not trying to start a fight but since there has not been any other statements lately about 1080p it would be good to hear how the second build is coming along. If you are unable to answer this, then maybe Jim or someone else from Red could give us an update.

Thanks in advance for your time on this question.

Respectfully

Method

[Jannard]

Our "Video Build" is still in the works. But the whole schedule has been pushed back with all the changes and improvements we have been making to the camera and firmware. We haven't forgotten. No time frame announced. That way, we can't miss a deadline. :-)

Jim

[Jarred Land]

Both the LCD and EVF come with a lemo video/power cable.

yes.. and the Drive comes with its cable as well.

[Jarred Land]

Gotta ask: We're #712, and going to be using Nikon lenses exclusively. It'd be really depressing to get our cam next month or so and not use it until the Nikon mount is available. Is there a provision to allow waiting to receive the camera once the Nikon mount is shipping as well? *praying* :biggrin:

Sorry man... no more provisions. You dont need to worry about your cam not being used if you take delivery of it though, im sure you can keep it busy in the rental market until the Nikon mount is done :)

[Shawn Nelson]

Sorry man... no more provisions. You dont need to worry about your cam not being used if you take delivery of it though, im sure you can keep it busy in the rental market until the Nikon mount is done :)

You think the rental market will improve that much? Here's to hoping that once 14 and 15 go through people besides multi-million features will start renting.

[Jarred Land]

there are tons of owners out there that have cameras working overtime nonstop in the rental market, and teaming up with rental houses.

[R. Gonzales]

Thanks for the answer Jim, I wonder if we will see this build before summer?

Missing deadlines are not such a big deal Jim... Look at the improvements that have come about from missing deadlines.

Method

[Jay A. Kelley]

I understand your pain Shawn. The rental market in Portland is night and day compared to that of Los Angeles.

It can be a frightening thing to have an extremely expensive of equipment sitting on the shelf instead of making money.

Teaming up with a rental house is a good idea, if there's one around. If you are like me, there is only one rental house in the area, and they don't want to share revenue with me.. They are simply waiting to see how this goes, and then they will jump in themselves.

I might suggest a "show". Send out some invitations to the DPs in your area to come see your RED and answer questions. It may help drum up business.. Show that camera to anyone who will look at it.. Of course, you may already be doing this.

Be patient, you will fiind your groove and make your money back in your own way. I have faith in you!

Jay

[Shawn Nelson]

Be patient, you will fiind your groove and make your money back in your own way. I have faith in you!

Jay

Thanks, I'm okay! I have quotes out for Feb and several interested parties for March/April. Besides, I've got one of the baddest-mofo kitted Red's out there :-)

[Brent@RED]

Brent,

Maybe it's my poor english...

I have #403 reservation..., made the deposit long time ago etc...

I tried today to order accessories before making a global wire transfer next week.

I ended receiving a order form including a new camera...

I'm not able to have an invoice with my #403 camera, minus the original deposit, plus acessories, minus the 2500$ credit.

I sent a email to sales@red... waiting.

the store/account is really difficult to work with...really...

Now, how do i see my account ?

I want my camera and accessories, and i'm ready to pay next week.

thanks

The BOMB SQUAD is getting to emails as quickly as they can. And, remember, they are standing by their phones from 8am-5pm PT, Monday-Friday. Feel free to call in if you have any questions.

We have also announced in other threads that the online is under the revision process to more easily accommodate at once orders. We spent a long time only in the "deposit" world so we are updating to be easier for "buy now" for people having cameras already and pending delivery.

We are prepping an email blast now to #301-#500 letting them know the information you seek.

Hope that helps,
BC

[Brent@RED]

I have sent sales@red an email too, about transferring the deposit i paid for 18-85mm to the 18-50mm lens. Awaiting the reply so that I can make the final payment to Red.

Yes, the deposit is still applicable if you switch from 18-85 to 18-50.

BC

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Thanks, I'm okay! I have quotes out for Feb and several interested parties for March/April. Besides, I've got one of the baddest-mofo kitted Red's out there :-)

i think some great ideas like Daniel Reichenbach with launching www.redstockshots.com will help so much introducing us as redowners in our regions.

[Nils Ruinet]

Our "Video Build" is still in the works. But the whole schedule has been pushed back with all the changes and improvements we have been making to the camera and firmware. We haven't forgotten. No time frame announced. That way, we can't miss a deadline. :-)

Jim
Jim, sorry to ask, but what about 2K scaled ?
Is it still coming, or definatly not ?
:unsure:

Thanks,
Nils.

[Adam Levins]

there are tons of owners out there that have cameras working overtime nonstop in the rental market, and teaming up with rental houses.

The rental business is a difficult one to get into as a end user. If I was to rent I would do it through a Rental house to be safe.

There is already reports of one camera missing in action due to rental.

If you are plugged into your local production environment and know plenty of people that would rent off of you then it's less of a problem, but renting out to people you meet while showcasing the camera on "open days" could be dangerous.

My personal theory is as cameras get cheaper; DP/operators/fp might be required to have there own kit. In the low budget feature market this can make you very attractive to producers and almost double your fee.

This will save the production time and money as you will be maintaining your own kit and prep/testing days might become a thing of the past.

On the last film I shot we spent over £25.000 on stock and developing and the last thing one wants to do at the end of a shooting day is sit in a meeting being told that you need to save stock!

Thats why I want a RED! but I do love working with film, the fuji ETERNA Vivid 160 is berry nice.....

OK I might be getting off topic here, but now that I've writen it I might as well post :help: sorry

[KETCH ROSSi]

I don't think I have EVER made a single post against Jim or RED and his fantastic team.


HOWEVER, after receiving the ULTIMATUM e-mail this morning, I got very FRUSTRATED and UPSET!


When I first made the reservation for #349 and as soon as I had the extra two Gs made reservations for #851 & #852, I dumped the purchase of the already prearranged deal for a

VIPER Filmstream (originally chosen after taking in consideration the advises and suggestions from David Mullen ).


After that it has been an incredible ride, from preconception to the great experience at NAB Las Vegas 06 ( not the part were I got lost with Kelly and half the RED team wile giving them a ride to the hotel, sorry again about that )

and now finally having plaid and seen amazing footage created by the many cameras out.


I attended and provided with any FREE services that I could, in order to help this community, but most importantly to give RED cameras as much exposure as possible and my complete support.


I supported RED in any discussions from day one, I went out of my way in any way in support of RED (even when less then healthy) I felt as if for the first time in my miserable life,

I was wryly part of something great and totally believed the RED team and postponed all my projects and the way over do, return to Italy, and this project and this community has been for the past two years more then a family.


Now I fill that RED has just "STUBBED" me in the back!


I'm selling my own home in order to get my REDs but the real estate market (which has already costed me a great deal of money ) is making it very hard to sale,
I continue to work in various prospects in order to get financing for the cameras and truly hope I can make the dead line.

However if I can not make it, I have no problem been pushed back to the end of the line ( even after waiting for almost two years ).


WHAT I do have a big problem with is the fact that I will loose my res. # and so look as if I talked peoples head off about this incredible camera but I don't even have a low reservation number to prove it.


Obviously is not just about proving anything to any one, it is about proving it to my self, and the fact that I stand it behind a product from the begin paid off and I have an early serial number to prove it.


At the end of the day if I fail to provide for financials to allow me to get my #349, then I will most absolutely get my REDs no matter what in what ever #serial number available,

because I still do very much believe in this cameras and the absolutely mind blowing results that Jim and the RED team have achieved.


PS. I mean everything written above in the most respectful way, but also needed to get it off my chest as my doctor said it is not good to keep things in.



Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Adam Levins]

Get it out dude.. Get it out... the doctor is always right!

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

i like your feelings for RED and i am admire of it .but what i can not understand why




Now I fill that RED has just "STUBBED" me in the back!

[/url]

:wacko:

[planet e]

the global markets (ex-gold and commodities) are sucking wind right now. real estate everywhere in the US is suffering. around here, i am told by my realtor friends, wealthy europeans are scooping up relatively cheap land with euros.

lots of folks in these parts are losing their homes, not just their cameras. lots of dreams seem to be circling the drain lately...

but when folks can't purchase their cameras, RED suffers. ergo, we all stand to suffer potential price increases. when the dollar continues its downward spiral, RED suffers a double whammy, customers who can't afford their cameras and a debased currency.

it may not be pretty, but i can understand why they are making a stand here, to pay the bill or move to the end of the line. i'm sure they have bills to pay just like the rest of us...

krugerrands, anyone?

[vincelucero]

Ketch, I know you as a great guy and your love and support of RED is undeniable. If I'm not mistaken I think you even offered tons of lighting equipment to RED users for free on their productions. Kudos.

Real estate is horrible right now. It's not a seller's market by any means. But the RED is not a $80K machine either. $18K for a 4K Cinema cam is not that much if you are serious, and by the look of your current inventory, you must be. Perhaps you can sell a few items instead of the house? Get the body for now and at least you'll have that until more money arrives. I'm sure those you've helped will do the same for you.

Best of luck - vince

[KETCH ROSSi]

Just go back from a long ride on my Trike, fill a little less stress out, (at list for now).


The point is more then one and as Stubbed in the back, (strong word) is my way of expressing my fillings from when I read the e-mail this morning, as I see my sentimental attachment to RED vanish together with my low res.#


Again no matter what ( if I don't resolve economics in time) I'll still always support RED and will purchase their great produtcs.


I have more then one huge project in the works and few of them are just mind blogging ( with multimillion dollar budgets and impressive list of cast), just that they need more time to conclude.


I can't apologies for having written the above post, as those are my fillings, but nonetheless leaving the arguable discussion of "coming out of beta" I do understand ( as a business man my self)
what must be done by RED to get things moving forward faster and with a much better knowledge of those that are holding truth to their reservations.



Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[KETCH ROSSi]

Ketch, I know you as a great guy and your love and support of RED is undeniable. If I'm not mistaken I think you even offered tons of lighting equipment to RED users for free on their productions. Kudos.

Real estate is horrible right now. It's not a seller's market by any means. But the RED is not a $80K machine either. $18K for a 4K Cinema cam is not that much if you are serious, and by the look of your current inventory, you must be. Perhaps you can sell a few items instead of the house? Get the body for now and at least you'll have that until more money arrives. I'm sure those you've helped will do the same for you.

Best of luck - vince



Vince, thanks for your kind words, and you are right, even if I could not come up with the full amount to get the entire camera systems, I could just get the body and even offered for rent, and with the money of the rentals buy gear as I go depending on the renters needs.

For the above reason also stated by you I have already put 2 of my HMI 1200 PARS out for SALE at a great discounted price, even so this units have never been used, I posted at DVXUSER and here at RED I have linked in the post as in link below.



http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7979



Doing everything I can, as this is only a temporary matter and things with me change very rapidly (well not always), but this camera has been a new found inspiration for me and pushed me forward in moments that I had very little energy to go forward my self,
just a hump in this forum, a look forward attitude to he things I would soon be able to tell with this cameras, and bam! Back in track with my writing and positive attitude about what little is left of my life.


Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[donatello b]

"I have sent sales@red an email too, about transferring the deposit i paid for 18-85mm to the 18-50mm lens. Awaiting the reply so that I can make the final payment to Red."

when i received my order summary notice - Red had applied ALL deposit on all items ( 18-85, primes, 2nd Red etc) that i'v emade over past 1 1/2 years toward Red 103 which uses up that $7500 CC max. very easy ...

look over your summary very careful it should state total deposit received to date ( which should include all items you've placed deposits - they listed all items i had placed on order too ) ...

[KETCH ROSSi]

Done that, Donatello still very short.

Thanks for the suggestion and I have to say that I was surprised that RED had decided to be so good about this and credit the full amount of my deposits to the purchase of the first camera package, great thing in deed.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

great news .redteam are great people:love: .no other one will do something
likethat .:biggrin:

[Casey Green]

Jim, Brent, & Jarred:

Thanks for the updates on the status of the firmware releases. We are very much looking forward to getting our EVF as soon as it is available.

We are very interested in the details of the multiple outputs, as this is a function very important to our plans going forward.

As I understand it, there is one signal that would be output to both the LCD and the EVF. If the EVF runs in a higher res than the LCD, it would seem that either a higher res LCD would be the solution, or when the EVF+LCD option is enabled, perhaps the EVF res is brought down to match the LCD, resulting in quality loss in the EVF.

This is just speculation. Can you explain how this will be done, so we can start planning on our production needs? Will we need a higher res LCD to maintain the EVF's resolution? How does this all work?

Thanks for any light you can shed.

[Jarred Land]

720p is the common output that will work for your external LCD connected through the HD-SDI.. Marshall, Astro and Panasonic are the ones that most people use, that all have HD-SDI inputs ( and most have loop through outputs so you can chain off to other monitors as well ). If you need to buy one of those because you must have all outputs, i would try a few different setups if you can to see what works best for you, as they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Once all outputs are working though i think most people are going to be very happy with our monitor, our LCD has dedicated buttons for monitor switching ( you can press a button on the LCD and it will toggle between the last output and the LCD) and it is the lightest, most compact option by far. It also takes power from the camera with the same cable and port that the video goes through, so you dont need to add batteries or pull from the D-tap with a separate cable. That and its one of the best outdoor monitors out there.

[Paul Nordin]

Once all outputs are working though i think most people are going to be very happy with our monitor, our LCD has dedicated buttons for monitor switching ( you can press a button on the LCD and it will toggle between the last output and the LCD) and it is the lightest, most compact option by far. That and its one of the best outdoor monitors out there.

Hi Jarred,
I had the pleasure of shooting with Donatello's #103 last weekend. Combined with some Cooke S4s, I was loving the look. I agree with most of what you are saying about your little LCD. The only issue I had with it was it's off-access viewing angle is very limited. Much more so than what I'm used to with the market leading models. It required a lot of neck craning on dolly moves and big pans to be able to keep my line of sight within the LCD's comfort zone. I will say that when viewed on-access, the image is bright, sharp, and lovely.
Cheers,
Paul

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I've not used the RED LCD, but from it's specs I'd agree with you Jarred.

If it's going to be used like that, it won't be connected to the camera; it'll be in someone's hands, and they'll likely carry it around constantly. I'm wondering if there is any milage in making a little protective jacket for it, and a sunshield?
Also on your store website it's still not clear that it can be used like that and that you should buy x cable as an accessory etc.

Just a thought.. Happy Sunday :-)

[Casey Green]

720p is the common output that will work for your external LCD connected through the HD-SDI.. Marshall, Astro and Panasonic are the ones that most people use, that all have HD-SDI inputs ( and most have loop through outputs so you can chain off to other monitors as well ). If you need to buy one of those because you must have all outputs, i would try a few different setups if you can to see what works best for you, as they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Once all outputs are working though i think most people are going to be very happy with our monitor, our LCD has dedicated buttons for monitor switching ( you can press a button on the LCD and it will toggle between the last output and the LCD) and it is the lightest, most compact option by far. It also takes power from the camera with the same cable and port that the video goes through, so you dont need to add batteries or pull from the D-tap with a separate cable. That and its one of the best outdoor monitors out there.

Thanks Jarred. Yes, we understand about the HD-SDI options.

The question remaining is, will we be able to use our current RED LCD + RED EVF (which should be arriving very soon) simultaneously? And if so, how is this accomplished if they each need separate resolutions?

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Jarred. Yes, we understand about the HD-SDI options.

The question remaining is, will we be able to use our current RED LCD + RED EVF (which should be arriving very soon) simultaneously? And if so, how is this accomplished if they each need separate resolutions?

yes they will.. in an upcoming build. it is accomplished by some engineering magic and crafty scaling, which is why its taking longer.

[Antoine Fabi]

The BOMB SQUAD is getting to emails as quickly as they can. And, remember, they are standing by their phones from 8am-5pm PT, Monday-Friday. Feel free to call in if you have any questions.

We have also announced in other threads that the online is under the revision process to more easily accommodate at once orders. We spent a long time only in the "deposit" world so we are updating to be easier for "buy now" for people having cameras already and pending delivery.

We are prepping an email blast now to #301-#500 letting them know the information you seek.

Hope that helps,
BC


Thanks Brent,

I received a corrected "Updated Order Details".

Now everything is 100% OK. Camera 403 and accessories, minus deposit and credit.

Now, time to pay !

thanks

Antoine

[Martin Drew]

Jim said here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=72404&postcount=1)


...You do have the option to wait until all features are enabled to take delivery at no consequence to you (if you have that much patience). We will hold your camera (same serial number) and ship when feature set is complete...

Jay started a thread with this post (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=97082&postcount=1) Where he said


I can't believe I am saying this, but I am considering taking Jim up on his offer to hold off delivery of the camera until all the needed elements are available.

In my case that would be the Nikon mount, the EVF, RED Drive and REDCine for Windows....

Ericyoung queried Jays reading of Jims original post here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=97123&postcount=24)


As I understand Jim's quote it refers to camera body features not the accessories.

....Need RED team to clarify this!

Jim responded with his clarification here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=97201&postcount=41)


....You certainly have the option to wait for EVERYTHING to be complete and not accept your camera or pay your money until that time. But I would expect that to be fairly soon. I WANT anyone that is nervous to wait. I do NOT want anyone to complain about being a part of development and be frustrated. Everyone so far has been told that they are taking cameras that are not done and have been given the choice to wait. No one has accepted the "wait until done part". But you certainly can....Hope that helps.

Jim

I just thought it was worth putting some history to this as Jarred and Brent are now saying that you will not retain your serial number if you want to wait for the things Jay mentioned in his post. That seems to be a different message than the one Jim gave, but I suppose everything changes...

For the record I don't want to wait with my camera.

M

[KETCH ROSSi]

Some good points Martin,

I too don't want to wait and would love nothing more then be part ( or have been part ) of the beta initial testing.


Unfortunately as it stands, I just don't have the economics available to take delivery and I surely also was under the impression that I could wait till ready and surely not losing my res.#s


Also it seems a bit confusing after reading the posts started by Jim offering extension till MARCH 1st. were it is not clear if definitive answer of intention to purchase is extended to that date, those leave the additional 30 days to make full payment therefore taking you to APRIL 1st.


I have been asked (do to my situation) if instead of loosing the serial number, sale RED#349 as I would be moved to the end of the line anyway with a different serial number. But I have not made reservations to profit from it by selling the cameras.


I have made the reservations because I truly have enbraced RED and trust the Camera and the Support behind it, and want nothing more then get them and start shooting my projects.

All this said, I stand behind all the decisions RED makes, just don't want to loose my RES.#


Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[david farland]

Ketch,
Agreed. I asked a similiar question on the 'Beta poilcy thread' and hopefully one of us will get a reply.
I guess the thing isn't all about your finances being stretched or not...it's whether at the time of purchase, the missing options will cost you.
I think Jim has done enough giving us a camera which will provide us with ample potential for financial return...probably has..and we could make do until the rest comes.
On the other side...every bit of functionality, time helps if your circumstances dictate.
I'd say he's gone as far as he should/will with final orders on 1 March...30 days to pay, 1st April.

Dave


Jim,
Up to this post I figured we had till 1st Mar to pay for our agreed order anyway.

Are you now saying we have 1st Mar to place our final orders and then 30 days to pay for this order?

Dave,

[Casey Green]

yes they will.. in an upcoming build. it is accomplished by some engineering magic and crafty scaling, which is why its taking longer.

Great, thanks for that. This is what we were hoping to hear!

[chuckt]

We are coming out of Beta into full production. Build 14 is the 1st step. Build 15 is the final step.

Build 14 should be released Feb. 1 and Build 15 by March 1st.

Jim

Jim,
The best policy would be to put as many cameras in the hands of people as you possibly can make, as soon as possible.
You can fix the bugs later and upgrade the early adopter's cameras later.
Let the world see the first version of RED in the hands of professionals.
do not wait until all the bugs are fixed.
I placed an order and then I cancelled it because I did not want to wait many months.
I would have accepted an imperfect camera NOW, because I wanted to use it NOW.

The advantage of RED is that it can use 35 mm PL mount lenses with shallow DOF. This market advantage will be available only until the competition floods the market with similar cameras. Sony and Panasonic are both coming out with 35-mm size single chip cameras. For example Sony F35.

4K is not a real advantage because we do not have enough post production or projection capacity for 4K at this time. However, your competition will soon catch up with you in this regard also.

The low cost is a great advantage. But, this advantage too will vanish when the competition ramp up their production. Prices always go down in electronics.

Your choice of the sensor might be responsible for many of the reported image quality problems. If necessary source another sensor from a reputable (Korean / Taiwanese) manufacturer.

The over-heating problem can also be solved by similar means.

But, put the current version with all its imperfections, in the hands of thousands of professionals fast. Now there is a market. Do not let it disappear under fast changing electronics market evolution.

This is my 2 cents.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jim,
The best policy would be to put as many cameras in the hands of people as you possibly can make, as soon as possible.
You can fix the bugs later and upgrade the early adopter's cameras later.
Let the world see the first version of RED in the hands of professionals.
do not wait until all the bugs are fixed.
I placed an order and then I cancelled it because I did not want to wait many months.
I would have accepted an imperfect camera NOW, because I wanted to use it NOW.

The advantage of RED is that it can use 35 mm PL mount lenses with shallow DOF. This market advantage will be available only until the competition floods the market with similar cameras. Sony and Panasonic are both coming out with 35-mm size single chip cameras. For example Sony F35.

4K is not a real advantage because we do not have enough post production or projection capacity for 4K at this time. However, your competition will soon catch up with you in this regard also.

Your choice of the Israeli made sensor (you code named it Mysterium) might be responsible for many of the reported image quality problems. This same sensor was discontinued from the Kodak still cameras becuase of poor image quality.
Try to source another sensor from a reputable (Korean / Taiwanese) manufacturer. They will be able to manufacture your circuit boards also with better specs (with less heat generation.) Israel is not a good source for electronic goods.

This is my 2 cents.
Huh...Is that last paragraph fact or is it meant to cause a stir? I didn't realize this information had ever been made public. Can you site your source on that?

Steve

[Steve Sherrick]

Also Sony and Panasonic have shown very little signs that they will make a market correction in terms of pricing their high end cameras. At least not enough to compete with Red at this moment. That could change but haven't seen a 35mm chipped camera from either of them, not to mention one that drops below the $100K mark. And I like Sony and Panasonic. But just want to stick with facts these days.

Steve

[Jannard]

Jim,

4K is not a real advantage because we do not have enough post production or projection capacity for 4K at this time. However, your competition will soon catch up with you in this regard also.

Your choice of the Israeli made sensor (you code named it Mysterium) might be responsible for many of the reported image quality problems. This same sensor was discontinued from the Kodak still cameras becuase of poor image quality.
Try to source another sensor from a reputable (Korean / Taiwanese) manufacturer. They will be able to manufacture your circuit boards also with better specs (with less heat generation.) Israel is not a good source for electronic goods.

This is my 2 cents.

Not sure what exactly your point is... but your facts are pretty twisted.

I think the quality of our image sensor has never been questioned. Our ability to tame it might be, but looking at footage shot on "Mysterium" seems to indicate we are ahead of the game.

I don't ever remember seeing Kodak, or any company for that matter, having a 4K 60fps sensor like ours. Your "shot in the dark" comments about how and where are sensor is made will not warrant a response. Nice try though.

And I am quite sure Sony will have a full frame sensor in their F35. We never expected to be the only game in town. But I thought I heard their F35 will sell for $350K... maybe I heard wrong?

Last thought... you always want to shoot highest resolution possible no matter what the final output is for best quality.

Jim

[Deanan]

And I am quite sure Sony will have a full frame sensor in their F35. We never expected to be the only game in town. But I thought I heard their F35 will sell for $350K... maybe I heard wrong?

Jim

$350k not including SR deck, codex, S2, etc.

[Steve Sherrick]

Where a sensor is made has very little to do with quality. If one is unhappy with the quality, then they have used their best source of information - their eyes. It's a judgement they have made and they move on to another camera. I honestly could care less where the Mysterium chip is made. If the images are pleasing to my eyes and I can generate income from this camera, then that is all that matters to me. Chuck you refer to image quality problems. I'd be more interested to hear why you didn't like the quality - specifics. That is a much more beneficial conversation to have IMHO. But, to each his own. You have a right to your opinion, but this almost crossed into spreading rumors territory and seemed a bit unjustified.

Steve

[Lexicon]

Interesting accusations but nothing substantial as usual. Less Smirnoff and more thought before posting makes for better threads. Just my two cents.

[Lexicon]

$350k not including SR deck, codex, S2, etc.

Sony said it was 250K just for the camera itself but everyone else keeps saying it's 350K. I'm glad you guys have stuck with 17.5K. My abacus can't take all this number crunching. :w00t:

[Jannard]

$250K it is... I stand corrected. Not including lens, SR deck, codex, S2, etc.

Jim

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Jim,
The best policy would be to put as many cameras in the hands of people as you possibly can make, as soon as possible.
You can fix the bugs later and upgrade the early adopter's cameras later.
Let the world see the first version of RED in the hands of professionals.
do not wait until all the bugs are fixed.


That would be suicide for RED. It's already an unknown. They're already making big claims and promising a whole lot. Delivering a half-assed first attempt would be the image they would be stuck with for the rest of existance.

New is always more scrutinized than "known" because it has to prove its worth.

When RED says "our camera is ready" it has to be ready or else their credibility would be forever tarnished. Especially since REDOne looks to be the primary platform that they'll be marketing for at least the next 18 months. They have no playstation sales to fall back on... it's an all or nothing proposition with only one chance to get right.

While many indies are excited about RED and its value you look at a lot of big productions and they can't afford to take a risk. RED has to present it self as a safe bet. They have to be known as something you can trust and rely on. You won't be fired for renting a $250,000 camera. You might be fired if your camera stops rolling and can't be resurrected.

RED is making sure they get it right. Rushing something isn't going to win them any friends in the long run.

[Mourougaya]

I had asked a Sony Asia Marketing Director how much the F35 costs and she replied over 7 figures. $250-$350 is more like the price of the F23 which I have seen listed. But like all these prices make any real difference to all of us anyway.

[RED,BLUE&GREEN]

FIRST:

I am glad the Red is out of beta!!!! I was to buy 198...but waited until this camera was ready...can't wait for build 15 to try one.

2nd: The Red is about on average 25 to 28k with acc. not only 17.5k. The F23 is about 105k without a deck. But it has a viewfinder..etc
The F35 has a price of about 225 to 250k now. ( without lens, batt, media recorder) It will be lower after it goes to market. Panasonic should show their large chip ( Varicam...most likely!) at NAB 2008. This will certainly bring Sony's price lower. I wouldn't be surprized to see sony and pana with a large chip...( 8meg to 12 meg) camera for around 90k.

Better pictures for all.................Soon!!!

FYI the Sony ex-1 looks great with a 35 adapter( great pictures) until you get your red..( and not expensive )

(ps) will probably buy a Red sometime in late spring...I will have to way and see 15!

[Lauri Kettunen]

$250K it is... I stand corrected. Not including lens, SR deck, codex, S2, etc.

My guess is that this is precisely why so many would like to have Red One as soon as possible. There is simply no temporary subsititue available at the moment.

In my case, for example, I'm starting to film a new three year wildlife document project, which will go to international distribution. The current guess is that will get the camera in May or June. So, in the mean time some other camera would be wellcome. But then, looking of the cameras which are available, nothing becomes technically even close in the same price range. All the cameras with 4:2:0 color space are out of question. The best alternative would be the SI-2K, but it costs already the same as Red One, if not even more, especially if the camera is bought from Europe. In addition, they don't have an electric adapter for the long Canon EF lenses, which are a must in wildlife films.

So, all what one can do is just wait and hope RED and Birger manages to get everything sorted out as quickly as possible. Maybe RED has already got many of the parts produced and will be able to speed up the production once the beta stage is over?

Of course, thinking the other way around, highly appreciate that RED has been so open in this development process. It would not have been a pleasure to invest in some expensive camera system and then find out that a much better one came to the markets immediately afterwards. And yes, it's just the right thing to say we should not do any plans until the camera is in our hands. It's just so difficult to follow the advice! But, better to stay calm and wait and see. Just my two cents while waiting ...

[Russ Fill]

Just wondering if audio has been all sorted out or are we still going to wait for that update when we get our cameras?

Sorry if this has been addressed I have been working out of touch for a while.

[Damien Molineaux]

Just wondering if audio has been all sorted out or are we still going to wait for that update when we get our cameras?

Sorry if this has been addressed I have been working out of touch for a while.

Apparently resolved with build 13 (present build).

[Eren Ozkural]

Going back a bit, even if the Mysterium WAS made in Israel..
well, Ive recently come back from visiting the Intel facilities around Haifa and I can tell you that theres more than enough top end expertise and facilities flowing through the country to match anyone else when it comes to semiconductor design and manufacture

[planet e]

Apparently resolved with build 13 (present build).

It seems premature to declare that audio issues have been resolved.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8146

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8143

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7513

I'm hoping that RED is working on improving audio and that all of these concerns will be addressed by build 15...there have been hints and assurances that dual monitoring will be enabled and that the production ramp in EVFs is underway, but the issue that really concerns me is getting good audio into the camera.

The audio has not been enabled for very long, and the range of issues which need to be settled is only beginning to come to light. I hope RED can give the same care and attention to sound improvements that they've already given to image. Some of that magic fairy dust might help.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

All of these people with these fanciful visions of cheaper-than-RED cameras, are you even industry professionals or are you morons reviewing the latest Mandy Moore film for your blog? I mean seriously, I am not an industry veteran even and I'm not so stupid as some of these people and their comments.

You won't find a better deal than the RED for a LONG, LONG time, Panasonic's HPX3000 is $47,000 according to the guy at Birns & Sawyer I just talked to yesterday, in the store, and it only shoots 1080p native. It's a far inferior camera and it's three times as much as the RED basically, that's ridiculous. The big guys haven't proven whatsoever that they can compete with RED so far. I love competition, I'd love to see everyone offering $5,000 4K cameras, but let's get real here, it's not going to happen for a very long time, and no matter what a camera costs lenses will NEVER be cheap, they never have been, never will be. But some people just like to think there's this graph where everything keeps getting better infinitely and getting cheaper at the same time. I don't understand that mentality -- cars aren't getting any cheaper, they just get more expensive as they advance in technology. The assumptions some people make here are really a joke. Even someone who knows a basic amount about the professional camera world wouldn't offer up some of the utterly stupid views expressed here.

If there's another 4K camera on the market like RED that's cheaper, now or already announced, SHOW ME! It doesn't exist. I'm not a RED fanboy, I'm a fanboy for great quality and affordable prices, but I'm just being realistic here. These major camera companies are rip-off artists, and some of you guys are looking to them to compete in price with the RED? Good luck with that.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jonathan, have you used a Red yet? It's a 4K camera that, although possible to shoot one man band style can also be very tricky in terms of critical focus. ENG style cameras can be more adaptable to the run and gun style, easier to focus during complex shots, etc. Not to mention, you get instant 1080P in the case of the HPX3000. In some situations that can be vital to what a client may want. They may not have time to wait for conversions. So yes, you are right that the price is up there for some of these cameras, but they fill the needs of many shooters.

Red will have many options as time goes on to make shooting ENG style easier, but for now some people may just feel more comfortable with a camera designed specifically for those kind of shoots.

I will say this. Red is by far the best image you can get for the money. So if it comes down to image quality alone, then yes you have a very good argument here. But also keep in mind that a Red package will run you more than $25,000 to have a nice rig. Still cheap, but the more elaborate rigs will start to approach the numbers of the HPX3000. Bottom line - For the money, does Red do everything you need it to do for you?

Steve

[Jeff Kilgroe]

All of these people with these fanciful visions of cheaper-than-RED cameras, are you even industry professionals or are you morons reviewing the latest Mandy Moore film for your blog? I mean seriously, I am not an industry veteran even and I'm not so stupid as some of these people and their comments.

Jonathan,

I'm not sure what's up tonight, but you've made two posts to the forums and they have been very harsh and negative in tone. No need for labeling people morons here. In fact, some of your comments don't even flow with the general discussion in this thread. Just sayin' you should lighten up a bit.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jonathan,

I'm not sure what's up tonight, but you've made two posts to the forums and they have been very harsh and negative in tone. No need for labeling people morons here. In fact, some of your comments don't even flow with the general discussion in this thread. Just sayin' you should lighten up a bit.

We all need a little Jonathan humor every once and a while. He's a mini celebrity on these forums. :biggrin:

[Greg M]

welcome back Jonathan, we really missed you.

[Poi Boy]

Jonathan where you been ? to lighten up would take the fun out of Jonathan. I say insult away.
-A

[Finner]

Hey Johnny boy

How is the inside of your colon looking tonight?

[Poi Boy]

Hey Johnny boy

How is the inside of your colon looking tonight?

finner you are too funny ! nothing like a colon joke to get things going.
Aloha
-A
so a guy goes into a bar...

[Finner]

Well Alex you gotta know that a kid like Johnny boy with his head up his ass that far has got to have a pretty damn good view of his colon.

[RED,BLUE&GREEN]

With Redcode being 4k highly compressed; what is the color space of Red? I know the word is "Raw" meaning 4k at approx 8x to 14x compression in redcode. Red is 24MB/s for 4k. 4:4:4 @ 1080 is about 55MB/s or 110MB/s in duel stream mode.....uncompressed..... with at least 10x compression ....what is Red? 4:2:2? 4:1:1? Compression isn't bad. Even 4:2:0 @ 1080 on a 40 foot screen looks amazing.

When Red comes out of the beta stage i would like to do some format tests F35 @ 1080, Red, 900r, ex-1, new Varicam (?) It would be great to see if anyone can tell which is which? and what most people would prefer. A blind screening, like a blind tasting in wine. I will do just that in April or May after NAB. A "Blind" screening....with Wine !!

[Deanan]

RED is not 4:2:2 etc. The traditional bandwidth ratio analogy does not apply well to raw bayer because they are fundamentally different things. At present Redcode is 28.8 MB/s for 4k which is 10:1 compression.

[I Bloom]

RED is not 4:2:2 etc. The traditional bandwidth ratio analogy does not apply well to raw bayer because they are fundamentally different things. At present Redcode is 28.8 MB/s for 4k which is 10:1 compression.

Is that likely to change?

IBloom

[Deanan]

Jim says: "everything is subject to change"