Dead Red!!!

[David Wyatt]

Anyone know what to do if your Red camera suddenly cuts out mid-shot and cannot be powered up again? Camera was running off of mains but there didn't appear to be any surge or fluctuation. It went dead during a very mild whip pan on a head. It had been running for about half a day, not continually. I'm guessing this is more than just an overheating problem because the camera has since cooled down completely & still can't be powered up either by fully-charged battery or mains. Anyone else had a Red that just died and never came back to life? Seems pretty bad to me for a two week old camera...

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

that's just come out of beta..:)

Sorry, that was a joke.. I hope you get it fixed asap.

[David Wyatt]

that's just come out of beta..:)

Sorry, that was a joke.. I hope you get it fixed asap.

Sorry, don't get it...explain?

[Tony Lorentzen]

Sorry to hear that, David... Call RED support immediately and please keep everyone posted here too. I sure hope this isn't something we'll see too often. I'd hate it if my camera died in the middle of a production and make me look like an a** for choosing the newest possible technology. Electronics occasionally dies, but I also understand if everyone at the shoot blames the guy that chose the beta camera for any serious work... I wouldn't want to be in your shoes right now. Call RED - I'm sure they will do everything they can to make you look good again.

[Greg M]

Call Red support first.

try this:
Unplug the power supply from the camera body, wait 30 seconds. Then replug and power. Based on your description though, I would also check that your battery actually SNAPPED into the V-mount. The new mounts need a bit of breaking in...meaning lock and unlock the battery a few dozen times being certain that it is actually locking into place and hasnt simply made a contact. In all likelihood the battery didnt have a proper locking connection and during the whip pan the connection came loose.

But always call support first, I have always received a reply with-in minutes.

[I Bloom]

Anyone know what to do if your Red camera suddenly cuts out mid-shot and cannot be powered up again? Camera was running off of mains but there didn't appear to be any surge or fluctuation. It went dead during a very mild whip pan on a head. It had been running for about half a day, not continually. I'm guessing this is more than just an overheating problem because the camera has since cooled down completely & still can't be powered up either by fully-charged battery or mains. Anyone else had a Red that just died and never came back to life? Seems pretty bad to me for a two week old camera...

The reason is most likely related to the power supply. It has it's own reset mechanism that seems independent of the camera too me and is sensitive to a slight disconnect from the battery.
Some suggestions:
-Disconnect the battery plate entirely from the back of the camera, reconnect it and attempt to reboot.
-Make sure that when you are mounting your batteries that the mechanism clicks twice not once.

IBloom

[Brent@RED]

Sean is on the case....

[Finner]

How long has it been dead for?

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

amazing :w00t: people at red support .it is only less than 30 minutes needed to
Have their support .:)

[Michael Booth]

Anyone know what to do if your Red camera suddenly cuts out mid-shot and cannot be powered up again? Camera was running off of mains but there didn't appear to be any surge or fluctuation. It went dead during a very mild whip pan on a head. It had been running for about half a day, not continually. I'm guessing this is more than just an overheating problem because the camera has since cooled down completely & still can't be powered up either by fully-charged battery or mains. Anyone else had a Red that just died and never came back to life? Seems pretty bad to me for a two week old camera...

Sorry to hear of your woes David. As a fellow Brit I'd be gutted if got my Red and it died... So much water between us and Redquarters and that, wouldn't want to have to send it back :wacko:

Hope the camera gets well soon.

[Costelloe Michael]

Hey David,

Keep us in touch with what happened. Especially important to us in the UK!

Mike C

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I truly hope that we'll have a Red Service in EU before the end of the year, so that potential issues like this can be fixed in a more comfortable way...

[David Wyatt]

Sorry not to keep you all updated on our "Ded Red" but obviously we've all being running around trying to get a replacement camera and trying in vain not to cancel rental jobs - just lost 3 jobs :-( It's still a bit of a mystery but all I can guess is that it was something to do with the camera being directly plugged into the mains when it died (not via the charger but using the AC plug/box that came with it - I wonder at all if this is anything to do with it - obviously we're 50Hz in the UK??) We've decided between ourselves and Red that, just in case, a circuit breaker is an essential piece of kit if plugged into the mains in case of power surges (like you'd do with a computer). That's all we can think of right now. I suppose we'll know more when Red get the camera back and check it out (I'm completely guessing some kind of internal fuse is blown?)

[Costelloe Michael]

David,

Are you saying you have to send the camera back to the states for what may be as simple as a blown fuse?

Mike Costelloe

[Martin Drew]

Hi David

I feel your pain... was there a separate PSU with the camera, distinct from the Charger? I thought the charger was the PSU.

M

[Mark L. Pederson]

We've decided between ourselves and Red that, just in case, a circuit breaker is an essential piece of kit if plugged into the mains in case of power surges (like you'd do with a computer).

100%.

dave - I know Red is on the case - so I assume you have tried plugging the camera into a different line that you know is grounded?

[Brent J. Craig]

Here in North America we almost never plug our cameras into the 'mains', but if I ever considered doing it I would be sure to use a proper Uninteruptible Power Supply (UPS) with power conditioning and surge protection as well. This practice also guards against the inevitable kick-outs as well.

[Greg M]

Here in North America we almost never plug our cameras into the 'mains', but if I ever considered doing it I would be sure to use a proper Uninteruptible Power Supply (UPS) with power conditioning and surge protection as well. This practice also guards against the inevitable kick-outs as well.

I have been plugging my Sony's into the "mains" for 25 years w/o a UPS, actually I have never used a UPS in the field.

In that time I have never had a camera fail due to power issues.

[Brent J. Craig]

In that time I have never had a camera fail due to power issues.

How about kick-outs? Ever lose a shot because someone stepped on your AC cable?

On a camera where an entire card can be corrupted by an unexpected shutdown, this is an issue.

[Greg M]

Well the majority of the time we are on batteries, the times we are on PS we protect the cables...I guess I have been lucky, because no I have not.

But I thought this discussion was about a camera failing because it was plugged into a wall...not about simply losing power. If simply losing power is the issue here then you yes you need to protect yourself. But this thread is about a camera failing.

[Brent J. Craig]

But this thread is about a camera failing.

Thanks for the executive summary.

My point was that cameras (especially ones that are little computers) can benefit from having nice, clean, conditioned power. Since the dead camera was running off an AC adaptor when it died, this is especially relevant.

I have found that since installing UPS's on all my computers, mysterious crashes and errors have almost completely disappeared. a lot of computer glitches and crashes are power-related.

[Greg M]

I understood, thanks.
I just find it odd to lug around a 40lb UPS to power a 8lb camera...I'll just stick with batteries.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Thanks for the executive summary.

My point was that cameras (especially ones that are little computers) can benefit from having nice, clean, conditioned power. Since the dead camera was running off an AC adaptor when it died, this is especially relevant.

I have found that since installing UPS's on all my computers, mysterious crashes and errors have almost completely disappeared. a lot of computer glitches and crashes are power-related.

Actually - we are now using UPS now in studio after a kick-out while changing settings in the camera - we could NOT get the camera to re-boot for a while - finally after trying everything - we plugged into a different outlet where we tested the ground and it booted right up.

[Joel Kaye]

we plugged into a different outlet where we tested the ground and it booted right up.

Was the ground different on the outlet that potentially caused the problem? Did you test it with a simple electrical outlet tester?

I guess it wouldn't take a very big UPS for something like RED... it's not a bad idea.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Was the ground different on the outlet that potentially caused the problem? Did you test it with a simple electrical outlet tester?

I guess it wouldn't take a very big UPS for something like RED... it's not a bad idea.

Actually, it is possible, that the camera just went into a "protective state" - and possibly it came back to life after capacitors drained - Red is looking into it - we were using the ELPAC AC power supply -

[Kevin Halverson]

Whenever one connects a device (like a camera) to the mains, its power path (ground) can become a victim to fault currents of other devices connected to the camera (monitor, audio, etc).

Consider that if an external device, say a monitor, had excessive fault current and was connected to the mains via a 2 conductor mains cord set. The monitors fault current would be routed through the camera to its mains power supply to the actual mains common (ground). Depending upon the magnitude of fault current and the current carrying capability of the camera, a potential for damage has been created.

There are numerous things that could occur under these types of conditions and simply connecting everything without looking first for fault currents certainly carries a risk.

Placing a UPS in any of the mains paths will accomplish little in terms of fault current protection from the conditions that I have described. Unless you know the conditions of all devices that are connected together its a gamble that might result in damaged equipment and a simple leakage current measurement would be all that is required to know one is safe (can be accomplished with something as simple as a DVM).

[Jarred Land]

if the camera charger trips when you are using it to power the camera.. you see a red light on the charger, that means its in a protected mode from a surge and it wont power the camera. You need to unplug the charger.. let it sit for awhile, and then plug it back in, and it will reset itself.

[Sebastian Cramer]

I must say my camera #112 went dead too. It was in a middle of 35mm production, where we were shooting Red in parallel with 35 for reference purposes.
Camera was powered thru an external battery on a Cine60 battery running at 15.5V with a propper made cable addressing all the specs in the manual about pin 1/2 and 3/4. Camera was on for about 20min and then went black.
We were able to reboot and it was on for another 2-3min, before it went finally dead. It seem to have a short circurit now and the courier is scheduled to ship it back to Red.
I actually had no intention to post anything of what makes me so frustrated anymore and deal directly with Red, who are really cooperative. But actually finding out, there is a similare issue, I thought I should post this here. No doubt, I love the images I shot, but this must not happen!!

If this wouldn't been a 35mm production I would have been in deep shit. The shipping and repair issue will cause to loose at least one scheduled job for me.

Sebastian

[jbeale]

I'm sure Red will get to the bottom of it soon. Just FWIW if people are curious: one (of many) possibilities is a cold solder joint on some circuit board. These can be treacherous, because it often looks good by visual inspection, and it can test out OK electrically. But the connection depends on mechanical pressure, and with a bump or weight shift or just normal thermal expansion, it can go open-circuit. The process by which circuit boards are soldered is still something of a "black art" and usually needs to be fine-tuned for each specific board (oven or IR reflow temperature profiles, etc.)

On a ball-grid array package (large logic chips, CPUs etc.) you may get a cold joint on one or more solder balls. Flexing the board causes a failure. Optical inspection is obviously impossible, they use x-ray to look through the package which generally sees the problem.

Another one is some debris entrapped beneath a component that the mfr. board wash didn't clean out. Depending on local temp. and humidity, you may get an electrolytic film formed on your board, in which dendrites can grow out from the solder joint over time, and complete a conducting path (short). Proper board layout design can reduce this possibility.

Another one is a tiny bit of loose bare wire, maybe left over from clipping short a multistrand wire, that can fall across some bare pins and short them out, obviously with damage potential. Turn the board over and the wire may fall off, hiding the murder weapon, as it were. A full conformal coating may solve that problem (and introduce others).

Ribbon cable connectors can be a real pain for intermittent contact forming over time. The types with a positive pressure lock or latch mechanism are better... unless the latch is left open by mistake at assembly.

I've had all these things happen with circuit boards I've been involved with.

[Kevin Halverson]

Proper forensic failure analysis is an essential part of the process of learning where vulnerabilities are. The process is not unique to cameras, it is normal for virtually all electronics. Much can be learned by seeing how and why things fail and through this knowledge can come improvements. Given a few cycles, one can assume that things will be discovered, addressed and will no longer be an issue. Its all part of the process.

[Brent J. Craig]

Consider that if an external device, say a monitor, had excessive fault current and was connected to the mains via a 2 conductor mains cord set. The monitors fault current would be routed through the camera...

Which is exactly why I have reamed out more than one video assist operator for breaking the ground pins off of their cables.

Everything on a film set should be grounded. If you are using monitors with 2-conductor cords (no ground), you are using gear that has no place in a professional environment. Besides being electrically unsafe, you could unwittingly fry the camera. "Oops, sorry about that. Those cameras aren't expensive are they?"

[Chris Parker]

i'm using two groundless cubes on set right now as i type. thing is....the gaffer is also using a groundless cube. and it ain't no low budget gaffer either. we got lots of juice running on this studio shoot, and all seems okay.

i hope i don't fry any cameras. although i did give a DOP a bit of a shock once. the camera was fine. he was fine too. just a wee tingle of power.

i get your point though.

fact is...sometimes i need to go groundless. i don't like to, but it does happen. and some of the gear we need to use from time to time is only a two-pronged power cable.

for the record, i like the idea of a ups, when it fits the shoot.

[Tony Lorentzen]

I must say my camera #112 went dead too.

This is not good... :unsure:

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

This is not good... :unsure:

is is scary for me :cold: but i think it is easy to adjust it

[David M]

Monster (as in Monster cable) make some good UPS's and surge protection power boards at reasonable prices. They're designed for higher-end home theater applications, and so are designed to protect expensive equipment. http://www.monstercable.com/power/
Unlike a lot of cheapo products, their surge protection boards have really large surge arrestors. The ones used in cheaper products are usually only about 3/4" in diameter, and will often simply split in half with a sustained surge.

Monster make both 110V and 220/240V versions, so they should be available in the UK. Maybe RED should look at getting some made with their brand on them, as an accessory. If they save you only one blowup over the lifetime of the camera, they will more than pay for themselves.

The real killer on European film sets is where there is 3-phase power being distributed by distribution boards. If the neutral line goes open-circuit, you can have as much as 1.7 times the normal mains voltage applied to devices plugged into it, which is what often wrecks electronic equipment used on film sets. Neutral lines often take a severe hammering when electronic ballasts without power factor correction are used. If you look at the power plugs of most operators 3-phase distribution boards, you will nearly always find the neutral pin is discolored from overheating.

IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, plug your equipment into normal wall sockets, not generator power.

Edited to add: Sorry, I didn't read this thread properly. If the camera won't run off batteries either, it's not too likely to be the power supply that's faulty.

[Brent J. Craig]

i'm using two groundless cubes on set right now as i type. thing is....the gaffer is also using a groundless cube. and it ain't no low budget gaffer either. we got lots of juice running on this studio shoot, and all seems okay.

Bad Skippy! Bad Bad!

If you can't solve video ground loop problems, you need to buy an optical isolator. I know they are expensive, but it beats killing someone! Gear is grounded for a very important reason, namely so that the evil electons go back to ground rather than through a person when a cable gets frayed or something else goes wrong. Your gaffer should know that.

And if the Electrical Safety Authority inspector sees your ungrounded gear there will be some expen$ive hell to pay. (What is the exact address of your shoot?) :-)



... although i did give a DOP a bit of a shock once. the camera was fine. he was fine too. just a wee tingle of power.

I have had DOPs ask me to have the video guy fired for using ground cheaters and giving them shocks. They don't need 'wee tingles' - they already have enough power!

[David M]

Which is exactly why I have reamed out more than one video assist operator for breaking the ground pins off of their cables.

Everything on a film set should be grounded. If you are using monitors with 2-conductor cords (no ground), you are using gear that has no place in a professional environment. Besides being electrically unsafe, you could unwittingly fry the camera. "Oops, sorry about that. Those cameras aren't expensive are they?"

If a piece of AC operated equipment comes from the manufacturer with a two-wire power lead, you can be pretty confident it's double-insulated and doesn't need a ground wire. To be approved for ungrounded 110V operation, most appliances these days have to withstand a test voltage of 2,000V DC for 60 seconds (and twice that for 220V appliances).

In practice, most electronic appliances these days will easily withstand 10,000V between the "hot" and "cold" circuits for short periods, because manufacturers often use the same power circuit board for both US and European versions.

The problem with ground wires is that it's all too easy for somebody to get the live and ground wires mixed up when replacing a damaged plug and make the metalwork live. That's why virtually all power tools do not have ground wires.

The harmless "tingle" you get from an ungrounded appliance is known as the "touch current" , and is produced by interference supression capacitors. It's not a sign of a fault, although it frightens many people.

[Sebastian Cramer]

Just an additional information on this ground wire discussion:
My camera (see above) failed and has a SHORT CIRCURIT beeing only connected to a battery block with no other accessories attached at all. No cable connection to 220V to anything else was hooked up. The camera was sitting on a wooden table so it even can be excluded some power went over the housing externally.

[Wes Printz]

The problem with ground wires is that it's all too easy for somebody to get the live and ground wires mixed up when replacing a damaged plug and make the metalwork live. That's why virtually all power tools do not have ground wires.

The harmless "tingle" you get from an ungrounded appliance is known as the "touch current" , and is produced by interference supression capacitors. It's not a sign of a fault, although it frightens many people.

If someone is getting the Line and Earth mixed up while replacing an AC mains plug, then its quite obvious they don't know what they are doing, and should NOT be doing the repair. It's NOT "All too easy" to do. It's HARD to do with color coded wires and the proper knowledge.

The "Harmless "Tingle"" you refer to is known as Leakage Current, and should NOT be present. The maximum allowable is 30ma in the consumer / professional world. In the Medical field max is 10 ma. Your GFI / RCD (depending on what part of the world you're in) are designed to to trip at 30ma.

If you are getting a "Tingle" troublesoot your open ground immediately, as you WILL have problems later. I located a problem on a Music Video shoot some years back in Los Angeles, after replacing TWO video taps on the same camera within an hour, I found Video Village had lifted the earth connection to his cart

I've not heard of RF Suppression capacitors resulting in leakage. If they are, then I'd send the piece of gear right back to where it came, as there would be something a bit more bother some going on there.

[David M]

If someone is getting the Line and Earth mixed up while replacing an AC mains plug, then its quite obvious they don't know what they are doing, and should NOT be doing the repair.

And so that will stop them will it?



I've not heard of RF Suppression capacitors resulting in leakage. If they are, then I'd send the piece of gear right back to where it came, as there would be something a bit more bother some going on there.

Every switchmode power supply module I've seen in recent years has had a Y1 or Y2 rated capacitor connected between the "hot" and "cold" sides. If they don't have one, they don't meet EMC standards, simple as that. Y-rated capacitors are blue in color, and specifically designed for this sort of service.

[David Wyatt]

if the camera charger trips when you are using it to power the camera.. you see a red light on the charger, that means its in a protected mode from a surge and it wont power the camera. You need to unplug the charger.. let it sit for awhile, and then plug it back in, and it will reset itself.

Just to be clear our camera (#247) didn't come with the power cable from the charger to the camera (apparently Red have run out of them?) so we just had the Elpac mains plug that goes directly from the mains to the camera (i.e. not via the charger). One other thing to consider is that the camera was plugged into an Astro (running off its own V-lock battery) which was outputting to a BT-LH1700 17" Panasonic monitor which was running off a separate mains. If you had to run off mains (which we'll avoid from now on!) would everything that came into contact with the camera like monitors also have to be surge-protected? What kind of a rating for a surge protector would we need for the Red (there are obviously many different types out there - would anyone from Red like to advise us what the best surge protector for their product would be?)

Sorry to hear about your camera death too, Ready2Roll - and you were running off a block so couldn't be a surge I wouldn't have thought? Shouldn't the camera have a simple trip switch or a user-accessible main fuse like film cameras, or isn't it that simple (the latter I suspect)?

I think the main things we've learnt from this experience is a) just use Red batteries from now on (AFAIK no-one has reported camera death from a camera running off of a Red battery) and b) that the camera can't be rented out on a job unless there is some kind of back-up body lined up on stand-by. There are some rental houses and owner/operator set-ups that have ordered two cameras for this precise purpose. Obviously in the early days having a back-up lined up isn't so easy when there are only a handful in the country :unsure:. As for sending the camera out of town on location or even abroad, I'd say it's fairly essential to take a spare body.

[David Wyatt]

David,

Are you saying you have to send the camera back to the states for what may be as simple as a blown fuse?

Mike Costelloe

Hi Mike,

Red are flying in a temporary replacement camera (arrives monday, camera died thursday) and the dead camera will be fed-exed back to the States for a post-mortem. I'm not sure it was a blown fuse, that was just an educated guess.

[David Wyatt]

Hi David

I feel your pain... was there a separate PSU with the camera, distinct from the Charger? I thought the charger was the PSU.

M

Hi Martin,

Our Red turned up with a separate PSU (Elmac I think?) which plugged straight into the mains and then at the other end straight into the camera. I think Red may have run out of the cable for powering the camera from the charger. I'm guessing that the charger acts as a kind of surge protector for the camera when it's plugged into it (I think Jarred might have mentioned something about this earlier?)

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I'd say it's fairly essential to take a spare body.

i think is is good idea for whome planning to rent it.:wacko:

[Costelloe Michael]

Hi Mike,

Red are flying in a temporary replacement camera (arrives monday, camera died thursday) and the dead camera will be fed-exed back to the States for a post-mortem. I'm not sure it was a blown fuse, that was just an educated guess.


Sure,

I'm just amazed that there is no way to have this checked by a worthy third party company. ICE for instance :biggrin: I have had to open up a few cameras in my time and perform operations that have you holding your breath in anticipation on the orders of the facilities companies.

BUT Good service from Red! Fly in a replacement, I hope it's not mine! Good Luck


Mike C

[David Wyatt]

100%.

dave - I know Red is on the case - so I assume you have tried plugging the camera into a different line that you know is grounded?

Hi Mark,

We've tried running the camera just off fully charged batteries (no luck) and off of a separate ring main to the one that may have killed the camera but no luck. We haven't yet tried alternating between battery and mains power 20 times like someone suggested (if that works we're calling our camera "Lazarus" :innocent:)

[Costelloe Michael]

the camera can't be rented out on a job unless there is some kind of back-up body lined up on stand-by. There are some rental houses and owner/operator set-ups that have ordered two cameras for this precise purpose. Obviously in the early days having a back-up lined up isn't so easy when there are only a handful in the country :unsure:.

This was something I was trying to line up prior to Red Delivery in the UK :biggrin: Didn't work out that way though :waaa:

However the premium on Red kit is such that owner/ops/facilities seem to be seeing the capital opportunity as the way to go. Anyone who wants to go this way with some rough agreements on cross hire I would be keen to join in. I have two cameras on their way in order to provide a personal backup camera for longer jobs and the possibility of two camera shooting. I may have a need ocasionally for another camera, without the need to hire in shedloads of extraneous kit and/or additional personnel.

Just wait until later in the year when the larger independent facilities houses get up to speed with Red, Everything will even out and Red will become another shooting tool.

Dave if you need occasional cross hire when I get my cameras, just ask.

Mike Costelloe

[David Wyatt]

Dave if you need occasional cross hire when I get my cameras, just ask.

Mike Costelloe

That'd be great, thanks. I think especially in the early days with teething problems and few cameras on the ground that establishing a pool of Red owners for emergency back-up situations would be ideal (and good for additional cameras, 2nd units etc as you say) Maybe we could set up a Red user group for anyone interested in such a deal?

[Brian D. Goff]

If a piece of AC operated equipment comes from the manufacturer with a two-wire power lead, you can be pretty confident it's double-insulated and doesn't need a ground wire.

Now I know why my MacBook pro only has two-wire lead:glare:

[Brian D. Goff]

Camera was powered thru an external battery on a Cine60 battery running at 15.5V with a propper made cable addressing all the specs in the manual about pin 1/2 and 3/4.

15.5V - could be that the camera simply don't like higher voltage?

[Kevin Halverson]

Which is exactly why I have reamed out more than one video assist operator for breaking the ground pins off of their cables.

Everything on a film set should be grounded. If you are using monitors with 2-conductor cords (no ground), you are using gear that has no place in a professional environment. Besides being electrically unsafe, you could unwittingly fry the camera. "Oops, sorry about that. Those cameras aren't expensive are they?"

The use of consumer devices as monitors (even in the video village) that utilize 2 conductor mains is a bit risky not only for their lack of a mains ground but also for their inherent design. Many of these devices use non isolated switching supplies that, due to their design, have high leakage currents. Add to that any aging and these currents can elevate the potential of the monitors chassis to near mains levels. If this is hot plugged into a feed from a camera, the transit event can be damaging.

Simply cutting off the protective ground of the mains plugs is certainly bad practice but it is important to understand the other risks that are present too.

[Sebastian Cramer]

15.5V - could be that the camera simply don't like higher voltage?

The manual says Red it fine up to 17V, which is not close to what I had.

[Rich Schaefer]

My camera #115 locked up today when testing. I was rolling and the battery ran low. I now have a dead CF card. Neither camera nor computer will even recognize it.

The camera would not boot properly first or second try. I unplugged all power for 1 minute no-go. Then unplugged power for 1 minute & removed CF card, then she booted up like normal.

I am concerned that the camera has little, if any power internal regulation/conditioning, or voltage metering/power save modes. I would not plug it into a helicopter these days!

[Anthony Gratl]

Alright that's two dead reds and a wonky red in three days from the 100-300 lot, the very first batch to ship after the internal mod and the pl mount fix. All seeming to be power supply issues, be it battery or main. 3 in two hundred is a fairly high failure rate and I'm starting to get just a little bit concerned....are there other owners who haven't posted problems with their cameras?
Could someone from Red please comment on these incidents. I'm guessing that the cameras have not come back yet, so obviously any commentary will have to wait a little while, but it's a little disconcerting to read these posts.

[Wes Printz]

My camera #115 locked up today when testing. I was rolling and the battery ran low. I now have a dead CF card. Neither camera nor computer will even recognize it.

When you say the battery ran low, just how low did it go? RED shuts off at 11.5V. What batteries were you using? I noticed on the car rig pictures you were powering from external batteries.

I would imagine if you were recording while it shut down, the file on the CF card would not close, thus leaving it as an open file.

Just had a thought... what if this had been on one of your drives? How would one recover that? Has this scenario been tested I'm sure it has, and there would be a recovery process developed???

[Jarred Land]

nice observation Pana-tech..

Rich, would be good for you to be more "open" about your 3rd party powering of the camera as your complaint doesn't include that info... specially in a thread like this where you could be adding fuel to the fire.

looking at your photos I see your also using custom power cables too, there are some specifics to the power cable and conductors that need to be followed or catastrophe can happen, we are more than happy to help you make sure they are spun right if you want.

[David M]

The use of consumer devices as monitors (even in the video village) that utilize 2 conductor mains is a bit risky not only for their lack of a mains ground but also for their inherent design. Many of these devices use non isolated switching supplies that, due to their design, have high leakage currents. Add to that any aging and these currents can elevate the potential of the monitors chassis to near mains levels. If this is hot plugged into a feed from a camera, the transit event can be damaging.

Simply cutting off the protective ground of the mains plugs is certainly bad practice but it is important to understand the other risks that are present too.

" Many of these devices use non isolated switching supplies that, due to their design, have high leakage currents. Add to that any aging and these currents can elevate the potential of the monitors chassis to near mains levels. If this is hot plugged into a feed from a camera, the transit event can be damaging."

I think we have a few misconceptions here. Apart from small HiFi systems and the like, just about all modern electronic devices these days (professional and domestic) use switching power supplies. The control and switching circuits are directly driven from the AC power line via rectifier diodes, and ARE live and dangerous.

The output voltages however, come from insulated secondary windings on the switching transformer, and the insulation of these is normally extremely high quality. For 110 Volt appliances, the required breakdown test voltage is 2,000 Volts DC, but in practice the actual breakdown voltage can be several times this, simply because it's easy to do with modern materials. Most Asian manufacturers also use the same power supply module for both 110V and 220V versions of their equipment, which costs slightly more per unit, but they more than make up for it with savings in inventory costs. The upshot of this is that in 110V countries, the insulation quality is often vaster higher than what is actually mandated.

As I said before, the "tingle" you can get from modern ungrounded appliances is produced by a special interference supression capacitor fitted between the "hot" and "cold" sides. It's not "leakage" in the normal sense, because if you test the appliance with DC, there will be no leakage current.

However, and this is very important, if you connect an AC voltmeter between the the ungrounded chassis of a double insulated appliance and ground, you can measure anything up almost the full line voltage. BUT if you then grab the meter probes with your fingers, this voltage will drop to almost nothing. The AC voltage you measure has an extremely high source impedance, and across the 10 Megohm input resistance of your average digital VOM, it hardly suffers any attenuation. Putting a lower resistance across it, such as your fingers, will drag it down to almost nothing.

Certainly this high-impedance current can damage preamplifier inputs and the like, which is why you're supposed to switch stuff off at the wall socket before changing or making any connections. Unfortunately a lot of people simply switch the equipment to standby using the remote, which is usually a waste of time:wacko:

Regarding the ground wires on equipment, consider the following scenario:
You slam your truck door on your monitor's power plug and wreck it.
So you race out and buy a new plug and proceed to fit it yourself. The light is dim and you're under pressure to get the thing up and running and you inadvertantly mix up the black and green wires. The exposed metalwork and the BNC connectors etc of your monitor are then connected to the hot side of the 110V line!

You plug a BNC cable in, and with any luck, totally f*ck the video village!

I haven't been there when that has happened, but I've seen the results when it does! Actually my first broadcast-related job was helping a guy resurrect an AMPEX VPR-20 1" C-format portable VTR, which he'd bought from the insurance company for next to nothing. EVERY CMOS chip in the thing (and there were hundreds of them), was blown. We spent night after night, cutting the chips' pins off, unsoldering them from their boards, fitting sockets and fitting new chips. He had another VPR-20 so we could test the boards and so we eventually got it going but a lot of other equipment on that job wound up in the dumpster.

So I know you all worship the mighty ground wire, but believe me, properly designed double insulated equipment is much safer. That could never have happened with a 2-wire appliance, which is why 2-wire appliances are so common.

[Jonas Nyström]

Where could you find the photos?

[David M]

nice observation Pana-tech..

Rich, would be good for you to be more "open" about your 3rd party powering of the camera as your complaint doesn't include that info... specially in a thread like this where you could be adding fuel to the fire.

looking at your photos I see your also using custom power cables too, there are some specifics to the power cable and conductors that need to be followed or catastrophe can happen, we are more than happy to help you make sure they are spun right if you want.

"Third party powering systems..."
(Twitch... Shudder...)
The stories I could tell you....
Particularly involving Arri 3s with 2 x 12V batteries.
PARTICULARLY ones in helicopter mounts:biggrin:

"there are some specifics to the power cable and conductors that need to be followed or catastrophe can happen, we are more than happy to help you make sure they are spun right if you want"

Far be it from me to tell you your job, but personally I would strongly recommend you NOT go there! You will almost certainly live to regret it. Very few if any manufacturers give out that sort of information, because people always try to blame them if something goes wrong.

If I were you I would make it very clear that warranty only applies when you use RED-supplied power sources.

[Jarred Land]

I know what your saying Plasmatic.. but if you look at this as a prime example, you will understand where we are coming from to suggest helping the customer instead of customer trying to pull a fast one. (not saying you are trying to pull a fast one rich)

1. Customer emails tech support, and posts on the boards that his flash card is dead. "battery just ran low and it died."

2. Red generates a support ticket, takes the camera back and the card, and amps up the engineers to start testing to see the problem.

3. Red finds pin 4 of the lemo has been over amped and blew out the power board. Rich still at that point has not said that he was using external 3rd party power with custom power cables.

4. Red, trying to do the right thing, fixes the camera under warranty since they feel responsible.

5. Customer releases photos on a different thread online where it shows the camera with custom cables and a custom power source. Red feels cheated, makes a note of it in their little "black book".

6. Red stops being so optimistic on warranty calls, and every other customer looses.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Jarred : I AM SORRY for that a lot of customers seem's to be angry
that make us all angry .. this is not good . i think we have to relax solving things.
i suggesst that red announce special Warrning term of warranty somelike special conditions for warranty fix.
it is not fair somebody Abuse his red and later blame red
Red it is not like anyother old fashion mode cameras it's need to be treated like small virgin girl .it is coming from digital age not iron made

[Harry Clark]

Hey Jarred...
Would it be possible, for a small charge, to have Red certify individual cables that many of us need and are having custom-made? (i.e., individual customers send you cables and Red tests each one to certify that they are safe)
Obviously you guys are swamped with a small staff etc. , but could someone in the shop put in a few hours each day of billable time to ensure that this type of thing does not happen routinely?
I assume that the forthcoming QR-RED mount from Anton Bauer has been tested and certified.
Keep us posted!
Cheers,
Harry

[Jarred Land]

dont be sorry Bassam.. its nobodies fault, in this industry people have a tendency to make things work for their application and needs, which sometimes requires making cables, power supplies etc. Which is OK... as long as:

a) they ask for help if they are making something for the RED ONE (specially power related items), and not assume just because a 12v cable/block battery will power " camera x " that it will work with Red.

b) take responsibility when they blow something up. We at Red are good at taking responsibility for our errors ( just ask the first 100 people that all just got new cameras) . so we expect the same from our customers.

we are all in this together... we arn't trying to be your mother and stand over you and shake our finger when you get in trouble, we are like a brother here to help you to stay out of trouble :)

[Jarred Land]

Hey Jarred...
Would it be possible, for a small charge, to have Red certify individual cables that many of us need and are having custom-made? (i.e., individual customers send you cables and Red tests each one to certify that they are safe)
Obviously you guys are swamped with a small staff etc. , but could someone in the shop put in a few hours each day of billable time to ensure that this type of thing does not happen routinely?
I assume that the forthcoming QR-RED mount from Anton Bauer has been tested and certified.
Keep us posted!
Cheers,
Harry

Good idea.. i dont think we have time to actually set something up like this officially... but we do have the time on a one by one basis to either look at or even talk to the cablesmith directly.

Anton is a great example.. we have been working with them to make sure the Red Plate they make is correct, they picked up the phone and asked.

[David Wyatt]

When you say the battery ran low, just how low did it go? RED shuts off at 11.5V. What batteries were you using? I noticed on the car rig pictures you were powering from external batteries.

I would imagine if you were recording while it shut down, the file on the CF card would not close, thus leaving it as an open file.

Just had a thought... what if this had been on one of your drives? How would one recover that? Has this scenario been tested I'm sure it has, and there would be a recovery process developed???

Interestingly enough when our camera died mid-shot, recording to a Red compact flash card, the footage was still there on the card right up to the moment the camera packed in!! Pretty impressive really and something I'd always wondered about...at least no-one else has to test this eventuality now :wink:

[Kevin Halverson]

" Many of these devices use non isolated switching supplies that, due to their design, have high leakage currents. Add to that any aging and these currents can elevate the potential of the monitors chassis to near mains levels. If this is hot plugged into a feed from a camera, the transit event can be damaging."

I think we have a few misconceptions here. Apart from small HiFi systems and the like, just about all modern electronic devices these days (professional and domestic) use switching power supplies. The control and switching circuits are directly driven from the AC power line via rectifier diodes, and ARE live and dangerous.

The output voltages however, come from insulated secondary windings on the switching transformer, and the insulation of these is normally extremely high quality. For 110 Volt appliances, the required breakdown test voltage is 2,000 Volts DC, but in practice the actual breakdown voltage can be several times this, simply because it's easy to do with modern materials. Most Asian manufacturers also use the same power supply module for both 110V and 220V versions of their equipment, which costs slightly more per unit, but they more than make up for it with savings in inventory costs. The upshot of this is that in 110V countries, the insulation quality is often vaster higher than what is actually mandated.

As I said before, the "tingle" you can get from modern ungrounded appliances is produced by a special interference supression capacitor fitted between the "hot" and "cold" sides. It's not "leakage" in the normal sense, because if you test the appliance with DC, there will be no leakage current.

However, and this is very important, if you connect an AC voltmeter between the the ungrounded chassis of a double insulated appliance and ground, you can measure anything up almost the full line voltage. BUT if you then grab the meter probes with your fingers, this voltage will drop to almost nothing. The AC voltage you measure has an extremely high source impedance, and across the 10 Megohm input resistance of your average digital VOM, it hardly suffers any attenuation. Putting a lower resistance across it, such as your fingers, will drag it down to almost nothing.

Certainly this high-impedance current can damage preamplifier inputs and the like, which is why you're supposed to switch stuff off at the wall socket before changing or making any connections. Unfortunately a lot of people simply switch the equipment to standby using the remote, which is usually a waste of time:wacko:

Regarding the ground wires on equipment, consider the following scenario:
You slam your truck door on your monitor's power plug and wreck it.
So you race out and buy a new plug and proceed to fit it yourself. The light is dim and you're under pressure to get the thing up and running and you inadvertantly mix up the black and green wires. The exposed metalwork and the BNC connectors etc of your monitor are then connected to the hot side of the 110V line!

You plug a BNC cable in, and with any luck, totally f*ck the video village!

I haven't been there when that has happened, but I've seen the results when it does! Actually my first broadcast-related job was helping a guy resurrect an AMPEX VPR-20 1" C-format portable VTR, which he'd bought from the insurance company for next to nothing. EVERY CMOS chip in the thing (and there were hundreds of them), was blown. We spent night after night, cutting the chips' pins off, unsoldering them from their boards, fitting sockets and fitting new chips. He had another VPR-20 so we could test the boards and so we eventually got it going but a lot of other equipment on that job wound up in the dumpster.

So I know you all worship the mighty ground wire, but believe me, properly designed double insulated equipment is much safer. That could never have happened with a 2-wire appliance, which is why 2-wire appliances are so common.

If you reread my post, I am not advocating a 3 wire approach as "the" cure for all potential conditions, rather, I am advocating the investigation of the leakage current characteristics of any device used in the "system".

Yes, a properly executed and correctly functioning 2 wire mains device should exhibit low leakage currents, but it should not be assumed that all devices are properly designed and operational just becuase they use a double insullated approach.

Yes, if the source impedance is high enough, then the energy potential is very small despite leakage which have potentials all the way up to mains magnitudes. But advocating that all double insulated approaches are inherently "better" than a three wire approach is a leap in faith for double insulated designs that is not justified in my 30+ years of engineering experience, particularly for sensitive instruments such as camera systems.

The video village example that I mentioned is one that I have seen in real world situations where the video tap's return was in fact subjected to considerable leakage currents (which resulted from the use of consumer level TVs being used as production monitors). In the days where composite SD was the standard for a video tap, a simple 1:1 isolation transformer could be added to solve these issues, but with HDMI and HD-SDI now the standard, the ability to resolve potential issues with simple fixes is gone. I have seen a number of Panny DVX & HVX camera's that had their 1394 (Firewire) interface damaged from the simultaneous use of multiple ground paths where the fault current of some product was earthed via the camera and the high potential (despite the high source impedance) damaged the 1394 encoder.

What I was hoping to convey was that there are risks that can result when you start hanging things off the camera and as the complexity of the number of devices increases, so does the potential for a problem. This was not intended to be a single vs. double insulated discussion.

Hope that clears up a bit of my intent and information.

Kevin Halverson

[jbeale]

Hey Jarred...
Would it be possible, for a small charge, to have Red certify individual cables that many of us need and are having custom-made?

Red did post a few times that I saw (in fact, everywhere the power pinout appeared) that you must use each power pin, and not just wire up one of them. They warned of dire results if you ignore this. It doesn't seem so hard to me. I'm pretty surprised someone took it upon themselves to make a cable without following those instructions.

[Rich Schaefer]

Hi Guys,

I was using a 13 volt Victory cine-block battery. It ran for hours. I was recording and the voltage was 11.? when the LCD went black then I pushed the power button but I was too late. The issue was not the wiring or over voltage, but undervoltage - a dying battery.

My Red is not dead. I can use it right now. It did lock-up at the time. It did not want to re-boot until I removed the CF card. (my CF card may be dead.) I put in a new card and kept shooting.

Jarred, I very much appreciate Red and it's support! I was not trying to throw fuel on the fire. I love my RED camera and the Company behind it! If this was one of my Sony, Arri, or Moviecam cameras. It would be a slow response to even answer to this!!! For that I am very greatfull. (FYI my camera has not been in for repair. It is fine. I did send a RedSupport ticket for the CF card.)

Unfortunately, low voltage is a real world issue. It's gona happen. When the camera is on a steadycam or jib and the voltage drops, this may happen.

Dose the camera shut down by it's self at a certain voltage?

I am doing all of this because I have to know where the limits are, before I get on set. I have a million dollar car spot coming up and we are thinking about using 3 REDs. The cameras could rigged to body mounts or arms and doing 140mph. Hopefully I will foresee any problems and avoid them, but I also want to be able to explain and fix any issues.

Thanks Guys for everything!

[Jarred Land]

Hey Rich.. low voltage isnt the problem per say... the camera now knows when its getting low voltage if things are wired right ( ie. you should see battery levels instead of "AC" when you use your block batteries).

The biggest issue we are seeing, as jbeale mentioned, is people are making cables pushing the entire load over just 2 pins instead of the 4 as we call out, and things can blow up.

We did some stupid things in the past though, there were some isolated instances of the older Dtaps that came in from our vendor upside down, and the tolerances on that Dtap were too generous allowing you plug the cable upside down.

[Rich Schaefer]

I am wired pins 1&2 as positive and 3&4 as neg. like the ops manuel suggests.

I see voltage level when I use the blocks, ie: 13.2vdc.

I don't think anything is wrong with my camera. I think It did not like the dropping voltage when it was recording.

[Jarred Land]

thanks rich.. when you plug the battery in, do you see battery level on the screen or does it say "AC" in the power box?

[Rich Schaefer]

It says "AC". Why do you ask?

[Deanan]

I don't believe the Victory batteries have the ability to send battery status anyway.

[Jarred Land]

Then your source isnt sending back the voltage info to the camera. we made a change to the power boards awhile ago to make it able to be a little more accurate and reliable with our batteries and cables, but 3rd party stuff usually doesnt carry that info ( kinda the point of my comments here )

To cut to the chase.. the camera thinks you are powering it off of AC, because your cables and power source doesnt tell the camera its on batteries. Since it thinks its powered off AC, it doesnt expect the voltage to drop and when it does, its going to crash, and crash hard. I suspect that is why you had your problem, im glad everything is ok.

[Greg M]

which battery blocks do?

[tillHavis]

Maybe Red might look at providing these cables or a link to approved cabeling and power adaptors etc. By warning of the dangers when purchasing power and cables (on Red site) and providing a solution for customers a lot of time will be saved.
Otherwise I see this as one of those issues that may run and run. I would look into the whole European issue in greater detail however as I'm sure all Red cameras were designed and tested in the USA and differences can arise when using the camera in a different regions.

[Jarred Land]

its a romantic notion Till that we would love to do, but its not really realistic. It would be impossible for us to make cables for every single power source, battery bricks and power blocks out there.. nor would it be in our best business interest, remember we actually do sell batteries and chargers as well.

The RED ONE is a very advanced piece of electronics, and needs special attention. We can help guide if someone wants to take a leap of faith and start making cables, its why we put pinouts in the manuals.

[tillHavis]

Hi Jarred ! I did not mean you would provide cables for all the power sources, I was under the impression that the London problem happened with the red power adaptors. Maybe I mis-read something. But if they were using a red power supply then it may be something to do with the actual power supply and the difference between the US and Europe supply and something that may need to be looked into when using mains power.
It may be no harm to mention (on the red site) that customers may run into problems using other third party cables and power sources, may save you some headaches down the line when somebody blows their Red.

[Harry Clark]

Does the Anton Bauer QR-RED plate that many of us are eagerly awaiting send voltage info to the camera?
Keep in mind that Arri, Panavision, Sony, and Panasonic all allow the use of third-party batteries with no operational penalty. Arri and Panasonic are not really even in the battery business.
Yes, Red is in the battery business. But many of us have a large investment in other products that we'd like to use with Red. I'm planning on using my Dionic 160s or Hytron 140s with my Red, AND I also have a bunch of Victory blocks. So it would be a bummer to have the camera "crash hard" every time a battery runs low. ;(
Maybe a third-party vendor can make some sort of buffer module that goes between a generic block battery and the Red that regulates the voltage and warns when voltage is close to the trouble zone. Maybe something as simple as a voltmeter in-line would even be of help. CSC and Panavision New York have cables that feature built in digital voltmeters. Perhaps those of us wishing to use blocks can have some custom-made.
Jarred, what's the low-end danger zone, voltage-wise, if the camera thinks it's on AC power to avoid a crash?
Cheers,
Harry

[Rich Schaefer]

Jarred, thanks for caring! That's amazing service on a Sunday!

Harry, briliant idea! An inline device that can take in generic DC in and create the data to let the camera know what voltage it has. It would be cool if it also could condition/regulate the power?

PanaTech any ideas?

[Nick Gardner]

Don't you think that you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable?

The voltage cut off that you explained to rich is going to be a real problem for steadicam, and other remote aplications. The Panasonic cameras have user settable voltage cutt offs, and you can tell them what type of batts you are using. Maybe something for Red to include?

The power issue really needs to be addressed.

Cheers,

Nick

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It seems like it would be a simple firmware fix to be able to force the camera into "Battery mode" so that it exhibits the same voltage fault tolerance as working with the RED batteries. Especially since it sounds like the RED is already taking a voltage reading camera side.

Isn't this just a matter of 'expectations' on the camera side? Aka run in "quirks" mode for batteries and "strict" for AC?

And I just *know* Jarred that you approve of people using third party batteries. Would be a bit hypocritical any other way no? ;)

[David M]

I know what your saying Plasmatic.. but if you look at this as a prime example, you will understand where we are coming from to suggest helping the customer instead of customer trying to pull a fast one. (not saying you are trying to pull a fast one rich)

1. Customer emails tech support, and posts on the boards that his flash card is dead. "battery just ran low and it died."

2. Red generates a support ticket, takes the camera back and the card, and amps up the engineers to start testing to see the problem.

3. Red finds pin 4 of the lemo has been over amped and blew out the power board. Rich still at that point has not said that he was using external 3rd party power with custom power cables.

4. Red, trying to do the right thing, fixes the camera under warranty since they feel responsible.

5. Customer releases photos on a different thread online where it shows the camera with custom cables and a custom power source. Red feels cheated, makes a note of it in their little "black book".

6. Red stops being so optimistic on warranty calls, and every other customer looses.

Oh, I fully understand where you're coming from: everybody starts out wanting to be a straight-shooter with warranty issues and so on, "not like all those other bastards".

But after a while you start to get totally pissed with all the ridiculous "Mr Nobody did it" explanations, when people realize how much their stupidity, penny-pinching or outright ineptitude is going to cost them! If people are upfront and admit what they've done, and the damage isn't too severe a lot of companies will let them off lightly. But if they have to mount a CSI-type operation to establish that it wasn't actually a design fault on their part, they feel somewhat less inclined to such generosity.

Most service guys could entertain you all day with the ridiculous stories and strategies people come up with to explain why some disaster they've brought on themselves is actually the manufacturer's fault. Not just for professional fiilm and video equipment either:biggrin:

[PaulClements]

Jarred,

If a 3rd party V-lock battery is being used on the Red Quickplate or back of the Red Cradle this wouldn't be against the warranty if the camera develops this issue would it? By this I mean that no custom cables have been used, just those supplied by Red.

Paul

[Rich Schaefer]

I know what your saying Plasmatic.. but if you look at this as a prime example, you will understand where we are coming from to suggest helping the customer instead of customer trying to pull a fast one. (not saying you are trying to pull a fast one rich)

1. Customer emails tech support, and posts on the boards that his flash card is dead. "battery just ran low and it died."

2. Red generates a support ticket, takes the camera back and the card, and amps up the engineers to start testing to see the problem.

3. Red finds pin 4 of the lemo has been over amped and blew out the power board. Rich still at that point has not said that he was using external 3rd party power with custom power cables.

4. Red, trying to do the right thing, fixes the camera under warranty since they feel responsible.

5. Customer releases photos on a different thread online where it shows the camera with custom cables and a custom power source. Red feels cheated, makes a note of it in their little "black book".

6. Red stops being so optimistic on warranty calls, and every other customer looses.

I assumed Jarred's post to be hypathetical because the facts are off. Just to clarify the facts: (Jerred this is not directed to you, but to clarify to others)

1. I emailed Tech support "Hi Guys, I was shooting some tests today when my battery ran down while rolling. I now have a dead CF card. I can't get the camera nor my computer to see it so I can re-format. Any ideas or tricks? Thank You" exact quote, no blame on Red.

2. Red has never repaired my camera, nor do I think they need to. I can shoot right now. (my CF card is not so happy, but I have others)

3. Red has not seen my camera nor any pin 4 damage. (My adapter is wired pins 1&2 positive and 3&4 neg. per the opps manuel.)

4. Red is not repairing my camera

5. I do have photos in another thread. I am not hiding anything. It may have been assumed I was using Red batteries, but I never said either way. In hind sight, it is pertinant info. I should have thought of it. I have not cheated Red. I love my Red camera and the company behind it!

6. Customer service is very important! Red is doing a great job. They are quick to follow up. We have customer service here on a Sunday! Amazing!

I have learned a valuable lesson here today about this forum. :cold:

The real issue here is what do we do, when we use power from other sources and it runs low? Inevitably won't most of us need to use these sources?

[Jarred Land]

I assumed Jarred's post to be hypathetical because the facts are off. Just to clarify the facts: (Jerred this is not directed to you, but to clarify to others)

No Rich.. that was not directed to you, which is why I said "Customer" instead of Rich. My response was directly to someone asking why we would even bother trying to help a customer make proper cables.

I was actually taking your side through an example.. granted the demonstration used some of your experiences to make a point :)

its all good...

[Nathan Garofalos]

From what I have seen, RED has awesome customer support. You guys will help someone make custom cables to use for their camera. You exchanged REDs 1-100 free of charge with an upgraded better model! Its impressive to see such loyalty to customers. I'm right now saving up for a RED ONE, and know that when the time comes for me to purchase mine, ill be working with a loyal company that will do their best to accommodate my needs. Thanks in advance.

[Finner]

Another dead camera? Is there a wiring problem with the new models?


Quote below, check thread here

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8140



Dead Red - Part 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There has been a thread already discussing a few Reds going dead in the field which can be found here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8033

I hate to start a new thread but it is Sunday night, our camera just went dead in the middle of production, and we are looking for a solution ASAP.

Red #40x (x denoting it has been replaced) has gone down in the field and is currently completely unresponsive. Im not on set but im im told the camera was being powered by the RED batteries. At this point all power sources have been tried and nothing seems to be working. It has been down for close to 45 minutes now. The camera went back for the retrofit because this shoot was mostly outdoors and we wanted to ensure it could handle the cold. However, the camera had been performing outside in the cold without any problems most of the day. It is now indoors and has had plenty of time to acclimate.

Im posting this here in hopes that someone from RED will contact me ASAP. We are also trying to figure out how we can another camera by tomorrow morning. We are in NYC, shooting in NJ.

If anyone from RED sees this, please call me 917.701.2894. If any other redusers have a camera avail for tomorrow (01/28/08) id desperately love to hear from you.
__________________
Emery Wells
www.projectred.net

[PaulClements]

Another dead camera? Is there a wiring problem with the new models?

Quote below, check thread here

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8140

Given it seems to have happened using 3rd party bricks, Red bricks and Red's power supply it certainly would sound like an issue with the camera body rather than what's being plugged into it.

I've read of one or two incidents on CML of Red's dying using the old cameras so I don't think this is a necessarily a new issue with the new cameras.

Red or a third party needs to develop a regulator small enough to sit on a universal mount and plug into the rear of the camera that has a built in battery so that it can stop the current being too strong but also if the battery dies it can beep to let you know to swap out the battery quickly or power down. Such a device would be great if we could use it to swap batteries over without having to reboot as well and maybe recharge itself off of the bricks.

Paul

[Brent J. Craig]

...So you race out and buy a new plug and proceed to fit it yourself. The light is dim and you're under pressure to get the thing up and running and you inadvertantly mix up the black and green wires...

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Of course things will go wrong if you randomly hook up AC connectors in the dark! Here's a free clue: Don't do that!

You might also drive off a cliff if you inadvertantly forget to use your headlights.

The point is that one should use common sense when dealing with things that can kill you, such as electricity.

[Brent J. Craig]

Hey Rich.. low voltage isnt the problem per say... the camera now knows when its getting low voltage if things are wired right ( ie. you should see battery levels instead of "AC" when you use your block batteries).

Does this feature still require smart batteries that communicate with the camera?

I have never understood why the camera doesn't just monitor the incoming voltage and shut itself down when it gets too low, like every other camera out there. Requiring all the intelligence to be in the batteries seems expensive and wasteful.

[Greg M]

Does this feature still require smart batteries that communicate with the camera?

I have never understood why the camera doesn't just monitor the incoming voltage and shut itself down when it gets too low, like every other camera out there. Requiring all the intelligence to be in the batteries seems expensive and wasteful.

exactly!

Jarred, you never answered my question. You said that block batteries could send the voltage data to the camera....Which block batteries do this?

[Sebastian Cramer]

exactly!

Jarred, you never answered my question. You said that block batteries could send the voltage data to the camera....Which block batteries do this?

I absolutely second the urge on this question. It can't be true that only the Red brick is supported by data connection and a simple measurement of the incoming voltage is not on the agenda for Red.

[David Birdy]

A good broadcast Engineer or Good DIT can help sort this out.

This cameras is amazing at this price point and will need a good engineer.

[Emery Wells]

Another dead camera? Is there a wiring problem with the new models?


Quote below, check thread here

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8140

It's true, our cam did go down yesterday. Luckily Mark at Offhollywood came through for me and we were able to shoot with #007 today without issue. Thanks Mark! What's interesting is that our cam (#40x) was completely dead and unresponsive yesterday but this morning it booted up for a few minutes before dying again. I want to apologize to Jarred for posting a support thread here on the boards but I wasn't trying to raise a stink. I had already created a support ticket and sometimes this board is the fastest way to get a hold of someone.

Sean at RED is sending out a replacement body until we can diagnose what happened with #40x. I can't say Im thrilled with the continued problems we are running into but RED did give us the choice and I opted into the beta program. On the positive side, the support has still been fantastic and I did get an email from Sean a few hours after creating the support ticket. Unfortunately, if you experience a death on set, an email a few hours later doesn't help you. We had to scratch the end of our day but luckily only missed one set-up.

[Michael Morlan]

Emery,

Glad to hear you were able to get another camera on set so fast.

It behooves each of us, who aren't relying on a rental house with a deep inventory, to build a network of owner/operators whom we can call in these emergencies. While a lot of RED One owners seem to be lying low and not announcing themselves, the glut of cameras coming out in the next few months will make emergency replacements easier.

Michael

[Harry Clark]

Emery,
Don't worry... soon #344 will be in NYC and hopefully we can all help support each other.
Cheers,
Harry

[Mark L. Pederson]

I had already created a support ticket and sometimes this board is the fastest way to get a hold of someone.

The fact that you got a response from Red faster from a post than a support ticket means that system might need a closer look. But who knows, maybe support was about to call you when you posted.

I know it is not an easy challenge, but maybe there needs to be some "911" type support (other than my cell phone - heheheh!) - I guess the problem is, everyone with a problem of any kind thinks it is a "911". I am curious how Red is going to manage support with this many cameras in the world - but if anyone can do it - I am sure Red can.

Anyway, glad Offhollywood could help - we are working hard to let everyone know who is shooting on the East Coast that we are here to support Red productions and Red post in every way.

[Chris Vincze]

Following the death of our camera, it appears a surge protector is a vital piece of kit. Does anyone know if these need to be a certain specification to deal with the Red's power consumption?

Thanks.

[J.D. Frey]

will running it through the charger provide any protection?

[David M]

Following the death of our camera, it appears a surge protector is a vital piece of kit. Does anyone know if these need to be a certain specification to deal with the Red's power consumption?

Thanks.
The power consumption of the RED is well under 100 Watts, which is considerably less than even a medium sized LCD or Plasma TV. So just about any surge protector board you can buy will handle the power consumption with no trouble.

However, as I said earlier, not all surge protector boards are equal. The "monster" brand ones offer beefed up protection for a reasonable price, cheaper ones may let you down.

[David M]

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Of course things will go wrong if you randomly hook up AC connectors in the dark! Here's a free clue: Don't do that!

You might also drive off a cliff if you inadvertantly forget to use your headlights.

The point is that one should use common sense when dealing with things that can kill you, such as electricity.
I'm not talking about what people "Shoulda-oughta-shouldna", I'm talking about what they do.

Did you think manufacturers went to all the trouble to develop those high-tech insulation materials and techniques just to save a nickel's worth of green wire?

I take issue with the comforting notion that fittting a ground wire to everything is going to solve all safety problems. In reality it solves some problems, while creating others.

Double insulated devices with no ground wire aren't perfect, but at the most they only kill sensitive inputs on other equipment, not people.

[Finner]

I'm not talking about what people "Shoulda-oughta-shouldna", I'm talking about what they do.


People also poke their eyes out does that mean red shouldn't sell EVF's due to eye dangers?

My vote is with crewpix your earlier point of rewireing in the dark ranks up their with some of the stupidest things I have heard also.

[Brent J. Craig]

Double insulated devices with no ground wire aren't perfect, but at the most they only kill sensitive inputs on other equipment, not people.

Oh yeah. That'll play well in our business.

At least the cameras are only $18K now. That's a week's rental in most places.

To heck with those pesky green wires!



...not all surge protector boards are equal. The "monster" brand ones offer beefed up protection...

Plasmatic, I didn't know you worked at Best Buy! Can we get the extended warranty and $150 HDMI cables too?

[David M]

Plasmatic, I didn't know you worked at Best Buy! Can we get the extended warranty and $150 HDMI cables too?

I'm trying to sell anybody anything, I'm just telling you what I've seen, after actually opening up various surge protector boards. That particular brand seems more than capable of offering worthwhile protection for not a big outlay. There may be others that work better, I don't know, I haven't investigated them all. If nothing else, you still get a nice color-coded 8-way power board.

If other readers think you or the other assorted hecklers here know better than me, well that's their prerogative. I'm not on anybody's payroll, just trying to share some real-world working knowledge.

Forget I spoke.

[mezmo]

Hi Plasmatic,
Thanks for the info, keep it comin.
Mezmo

[Michael Hastings]

Don't you think that you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable?

The voltage cut off that you explained to rich is going to be a real problem for steadicam, and other remote aplications. The Panasonic cameras have user settable voltage cutt offs, and you can tell them what type of batts you are using. Maybe something for Red to include?

Cheers,

Nick

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable

The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
:biggrin:

[Jarred Land]

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable

The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
:biggrin:

Now that is one way to make sure we DONT do something.. everyone, thank Aquavideo for annoying us enough to take that cable off the todo list.

[Bing Bailey]

A Death Squad is being assembled right now for the infraction. First Rule of RED Club , we must not talk about lack of cables

[Lauri Kettunen]

it doesnt expect the voltage to drop and when it does, its going to crash, and crash hard.

What does this "crash hard" mean precisely?

Second, say the camera is AC powered and there's a short interruption in electric power which takes only couple seconds. Or, if the cable from the battery is accidentally loosen for what ever reason. What is it one should expect in this case? Any chance the camera gets somehow stucken and does not boot up? Guess that can't be the case.


Red finds pin 4 of the lemo has been over amped and blew out the power board.

It's clear that a pin has a maximum current. But, how come the power board blows out if the pin has too much current? For, the by the old and famous Thevenin-Norton theorem the whole board corresponds to some equivalent impedance. Since the question is of a voltage driven system, this impedance -and nothing else- specifies how much current the power board will take. The wireing should have nothing to do with this.

Moreveor, even if the circuit board blew out, why then the pins are not connected to each other inside the camera? That implied in the worst case only the pin of the connector should be damaged by over amping. Those who designed the camera must have realized this. So, what is the point I'm missing here?

[Jarred Land]

What does this "crash hard" mean precisely?


it means you will be recording to a drive or flash card, and all of a sudden the power will drop. Sort of like ripping out a hard drive out of your computer in the middle of writing it to it.. not a good idea, and more often than not you will loose part or all of your shot/shots, specially if you are writing to spinning media.

[David M]

What does this "crash hard" mean precisely?

Second, say the camera is AC powered and there's a short interruption in electric power which takes only couple seconds. Or, if the cable from the battery is accidentally loosen for what ever reason. What is it one should expect in this case? Any chance the camera gets somehow stucken and does not boot up? Guess that can't be the case.

It's clear that a pin has a maximum current. But, how come the power board blows out if the pin has too much current? For, the by the old and famous Thevenin-Norton theorem the whole board corresponds to some equivalent impedance. Since the question is of a voltage driven system, this impedance -and nothing else- specifies how much current the power board will take. The wireing should have nothing to do with this.



All regulated power supplies are designed to continuously monitor the output voltage they produce, and automatically adjust the amount of output current they produce, to keep the output voltage at whatever the designer set it to. If the device it's powering suddenly wants to draw more (or less) current, the regulator's control system automatically feeds in more (or less) current, as required, to keep the output voltage stable.

Similarly, if the input voltage from the battery or AC power line or whatever goes up or down, the regulator also adjusts itself to compensate for that. (Like cruise control in a car).

However, there are limits to how fast the regulator can react to changes like this, and so most electronic devices have large capacitors across the output voltage line which absorb any short-term fluctuations that are too fast for the power regulator to deal with. (Again using the cruise control analogy, this is like the way the inertia of the car smooths out any short-term environmental variables that may affect its speed)

Where you can run into problems is if you get dirty, corroded or overheated connecting pins or bad solder joints between the regulator and its input or output connections.

Imagine a bad connection between the battery socket and the regulator input. This can make the input voltage intermittently drop abnormally low. The regulator will immediately alter its operating conditions to try to compensate for this. Now imagine what happens if the operator bashes the camera and :) the battery contact is restored. For a split second, the regulator's ouput voltage will jump to an abnormally high level because it can't react instantly to the changed input conditions and throttle back its output to match.

This can have one of several effects. Worst case, if the designer didn't put in enough bypass capacitors, or they're not good quality, or they've dried out because of the heat the momentary voltage surge can fry the expensive logic chips.

More likely, it will simply cause the system to crash.

Many designers also put "sacrificial" silicon diodes across the supply lines which are deliberately designed to go permanently short-circuit to protect the more expensive parts, as a crude but effective sort of "damage control". Doesn't help you if your camera dies in the middle of a shoot of course:waaa:

A bad connection on the output isn't as serious in that it probably won't destroy anything, but it will still make the system crash.

[David M]

The power issue really needs to be addressed.

Yeah something needs to be DONE!
I don't know what it is, or who's going to do it, but damn it, SOMETHING has to be done!

Like, wow, NOBODY at Red has ever thought of this.
Those layabouts are all probably out the back right now sipping on RED Kool-Aid Ice Cream sodas, listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers and talking about the Boston Red Sox.

It's a bit like old joke about the guy whose car has stalled in heavy traffic going to the guy behind him and saying
"Tell you what. You go up there and see if you can get my car started, and I'll stay here and blow the horn."

[David Wyatt]

Could I just confirm from Red whether power surges to the camera are controlled if you are powering the camera via the Red charger from mains? Otherwise, with the Elmac AC power pack I'm assuming there is no kind of safe power monitoring to the camera??

We've just sent our camera back to Red for a post-mortem/fix, and in the meantime Red have pulled out all the stops to not only send us a temporary pre-100 (non-X) replacement camera within days, but also a post-100 demo camera hot on its heels (landing any day now!) - hats off to Red since we were booked to demo our camera to the industry at the Broadcast/Video Forum show [a tiny version of NAB] which we were still able to do (in fact I believe it was the only Red camera at the show!!)

[Brent J. Craig]

Now that is one way to make sure we DONT do something.. everyone, thank Aquavideo for annoying us enough to take that cable off the todo list.

Perhaps it's annoying because it's true.

How in the world can you make a 'professional' camera that cannot make use of the thousands of batteries professionals already own?

I know you're not making money on the cameras, but are the margins on the Red batteries really so lucrative that you won't even consider making it easy for people to use the industry-standard batteries?!?

We need better power solutions for the Red. Your users have already invested in 4-pin/12 volt batteries and have been using them for years. See the connection there?

With the new rules around lithiums and air travel, many of your users will find themselves needing the ability to use good 'ol ni-cad blocks very very soon!

[David M]

Hi Plasmatic,
Thanks for the info, keep it comin.
Mezmo

Here are some pictures to illustrate the differences between cheap and better quality surge arrestors:
The cheap disk-type MOV in the top photo is blown apart and completely open-circuit.

I have seen them where there's nothing left but the two connecting wires sticking out of the board:wacko:

The one below is completely unharmed although it took out the main breakers on the power circuit. (This isn't from a "Monster" brand distribution board, but they use the same type of surge arrestor)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9868/goodbadbb0.jpg

But basically, while ANY surge protection is better than none, quality protection doesn't cost a whole lot more. I suppose the problem here is that you may never know if and when it saves your ass, unless you're only one on the set to walk away with equipment that still works of course:biggrin:

[Jarred Land]

Perhaps it's annoying because it's true.

How in the world can you make a 'professional' camera that cannot make use of the thousands of batteries professionals already own?


Crew.. settle down. REDONE can make use of thousands of batteries out there, you just need to make your own cables. We cant hold everyone's hand and make everything under the sun to satisfy everyone's needs.. its impossible.

Im not sure why you are so adamant on putting the responsibility on us to make sure we not only work with all the 3rd party accessories out there, but make the accessory cables to work with the 3rd party accessories.

If you want to use your old Bolex battery blocks on the Red, ask Bolex to make the cable. If you want to use your Anton batteries contact Anton to make the parts ( oh wait.. Anton gets it, and Anton is already doing this.. )

Ive owned many cameras by many companies before.. and ive never, for example, had the audacity to call Panasonic and bitch at Panasonic to make a Sony plate to make my Sony batteries fit my Panasonic camera.

[Greg M]

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable

The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.
The power issue really needs to be addressed.

you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
you could avoid a lot of confusion and heart ache if you just sold a 4 pin xlr to red cable
:biggrin:



Contact Pana-tech he makes this cable and it is very well done.
Contact Pana-tech he makes this cable and it is very well done.
Contact Pana-tech he makes this cable and it is very well done.
Contact Pana-tech he makes this cable and it is very well done.

[Jarred Land]

i was waiting for someone to finally post that... thanks Greg :)

and yes... its very well done.

[Lauri Kettunen]

Imagine a bad connection between the battery socket and the regulator input. This can make the input voltage intermittently drop abnormally low. The regulator will immediately alter its operating conditions to try to compensate for this.

Plasmatic, thanks. Ok, this is clear. But still, compare, if a) all current is through one pin and it gets damaged, b) the camera suddenly losts the power from the battery or from the AC-adapter; In both cases the power board should not get damaged. That's a rather standard design issue.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

http://www.apcmedia.com/resource/images/500/Front_Left/5F9DCF4A-5056-AE36-FE34BAF4B99E6A78_pr.jpg
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE550R

[Mark L. Pederson]

http://www.apcmedia.com/resource/images/500/Front_Left/5F9DCF4A-5056-AE36-FE34BAF4B99E6A78_pr.jpg
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE550R
Exactly.

[Harry Clark]

Hey Jarred...
I thought Aqua's post was funny. No one is knocking the company! ;)
BTW, you can get either an A/B mount or V-Lock with your Panasonic camera. Not sure about Sony.
But CrewPix is also right. Making a generic 4-pin XLR cable that would interface with the millions of block batteries already out there would be nice.
But I've been in touch with Pana-Tech and he's making me a bunch of cables so I'm OK.
I think we'll all come to the conclusion that we need third parties like Pana-Tech and Element Technica to make it all work. Heck, even on my Arri or Panasonic cameras there have always been things that they just never got around to making or were made faster or better by third parties. We are lucky that some fine technicians have jumped on board and are already making nice accessories. And it lets the folks at Red improve the cameras and ramp up production.
It will be OK... deep breaths...
But a power cable would be nice. ;)
Cheers,
Harry

[Wes Printz]

Jarred, thanks for caring! That's amazing service on a Sunday!

Harry, briliant idea! An inline device that can take in generic DC in and create the data to let the camera know what voltage it has. It would be cool if it also could condition/regulate the power?

PanaTech any ideas?

Rich, Yes I have something in the works now, but will be a visual thing only. Rocketeer gave some valuable input on this tonight. Not able to communicate with the camera, as that would entail customizing the batteries with "Gas Gauge" chips etc, and that technology is designed for the LI-Ion chemistry batteries.

[Wes Printz]

Hey Rich.. low voltage isnt the problem per say... the camera now knows when its getting low voltage if things are wired right ( ie. you should see battery levels instead of "AC" when you use your block batteries).

Hey jarred..... When you say "Block batteries" as above, what batteries are you referring to exactly? I tested some power cables tonight on #23 w/Build 13 being powered from a typical Rental house 12V battery. I was highly interested to see on the display an actual voltage reading. I was surprised it still showed AC.

I had inline analog volt and amp meters, that baby draws 5A on record to a CF card, with battery voltage dropping close to .75V, and 4.5A standby. Granted, it may not have been a fully charged battery.

Can you please clarify the comment:

"ie. you should see battery levels instead of "AC" when you use your block batteries"

My thought is you were thinking RED BRICK????

BTW, to those interested.. Per Stuart, the camera SHUTS down at 11.5V

[Jarred Land]

Pana-tech.. if wired to do so and your battery block supports it.. you should not see "AC" on the camera when using batteries. Of course, the Red Bricks and plate are wired properly so you do see Level indication instead of AC.

[Jarred Land]

standards... our favorite word.

they both also have big ass slots where you put tape in. Dont worry Crewpix. Ill save you the bitching and foreshadow your next request and put DVCAM and HDCAM tape mechanisms on the list right now. You know.. cause we gotta fit the "standards".

[Kevin Halverson]

Standards are rather like another well know anatomical feature, everyone's got them! :biggrin:

[Brent J. Craig]

Whether 'standards' fit into Red's rebellious attitude or not, the fact is that rental facilities are buying your cameras in bunches and all of them have roomfulls of 12VDC battery blocks with 4-pin XLR connectors.

You can embrace your market or you can call them 'bitchy'. It's an individual choice, I guess.

There are also going to be many Red users who unexpectedly need power sources when they travel with their cameras, especially with their lithiums staying behind at airport security screening. 4-pin XLR 12VDC is a world standard (there's that word again) that will save people's butts.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

definitly there are problems:
audio
assecoires (handles/shoulder palte)
batteries (D Tap)
redcine
mini XLR
witness marks

but you cant deny:
there are 3rd party solutions everywhere...

panatechs cables
all of ETs stuff ( breakoutbox, EVF bracket)
Actioncams SWAP battery holder
Antonbauer QR Redplate
Zacuto handheld rig
Ians FCP to Redcine XMl script
Anders batch process tool
someone will soon execute a Audio Pot solution.

my guess is that we have to accept that red needs some 3rd party solutions, (like plug ins for fcp/ AE etc)
but it would be cool to have one place----
where the problem is listed and which solution is already available.
and who develops (red included) a solution for a certain problem.
RED ONE will never be the universal cam.but they try to be.

but what i recognized, i could be totally wrong, i am just reading through the posts, is that the body is really great, but some assecoires are lets say not so great.

[Jarred Land]

Whether 'standards' fit into Red's rebellious attitude or not, the fact is that rental facilities are buying your cameras in bunches and all of them have roomfulls of 12VDC battery blocks with 4-pin XLR connectors.

You can embrace your market or you can call them 'bitchy'. It's an individual choice, I guess.

There are also going to be many Red users who unexpectedly need power sources when they travel with their cameras, especially with their lithiums staying behind at airport security screening. 4-pin XLR 12VDC is a world standard (there's that word again) that will save people's butts.

Crew.. buy a friggin cable already from Pana-tech or the dozen of other companies that are making them. I dont know why you keep yelling about the cables as there is a solution for you.

[Steven Caesare]

Second, say the camera is AC powered and there's a short interruption in electric power which takes only couple seconds. Or, if the cable from the battery is accidentally loosen for what ever reason. What is it one should expect in this case? Any chance the camera gets somehow stucken and does not boot up? Guess that can't be the case.



It's clear that a pin has a maximum current. But, how come the power board blows out if the pin has too much current? For, the by the old and famous Thevenin-Norton theorem the whole board corresponds to some equivalent impedance. Since the question is of a voltage driven system, this impedance -and nothing else- specifies how much current the power board will take. The wireing should have nothing to do with this.

Moreveor, even if the circuit board blew out, why then the pins are not connected to each other inside the camera? That implied in the worst case only the pin of the connector should be damaged by over amping. Those who designed the camera must have realized this. So, what is the point I'm missing here?

Methinks you are being a tad too literal with the "blew out" phrase.

I took this rather causal description to mean that the current draw of the camera exceeds the design rating for an individual pin in the connector body. Therefore they are likely using 2 pins in parallel to conduct the current. Which means that it is likely that the pins ARE wired in common inside the camera body.

Attempting to draw more current that the pin is rated for will likely lead to overheating and thus damaging or "blowing out" the board.

[Jarred Land]

You can embrace your market or you can call them 'bitchy'. It's an individual choice, I guess.


And i think your right.. i may be taking this a little too personal. Ill try and behave :)

[Wes Printz]

Pana-tech.. if wired to do so and your battery block supports it.. you should not see "AC" on the camera when using batteries. Of course, the Red Bricks and plate are wired properly so you do see Level indication instead of AC.

Thanks Jarred, All clear now. At this point, as I see, the ONLY battery that will show capacity on the display will be the RED BRICKS as they have the electronics which the camera requires to communicate with on the bi-directional data lines, pins 5/6. Without this data the camera will default to "AC" mode. That's fair, proprietary feature. I'm aware of those...

It was the use of the term "Block Battery" in the previous post. That could be taken to generally encompasses a 12V battery along the lines of Victory, Lentequipt, Cine Power, or other homegrown battery wired to the 12V 4 Pin XLR. That's how I understood the post.

A/B and IDX have their own data protocols as well. The only "STANDARD" followed with the on board battery application is the Battery Terminal connections on the V-lock.

[Scott Webster]

Pana-Tech dropped in to test his latest cables

12V to Red Lemo
Remote Start Stop with Tally light and 20ft Extension
ENG Lens to AUX232, complete with servo operation for the lens and record and RET control of the Red from the ENG Lens

[Wes Printz]

Moreveor, even if the circuit board blew out, why then the pins are not connected to each other inside the camera? That implied in the worst case only the pin of the connector should be damaged by over amping. Those who designed the camera must have realized this. So, what is the point I'm missing here?

Jarred is trying to help as much as possible here. Obviously Jarred can not divulge too much info on the inner workings / design of the camera. My first though when he Say's "Blew out" is just as common as every faulty cable has a short. I have seen over the years so many cables return from a job marked "NFG" "Shorted" "This cable does not work, it's shorted" If I had a penny for every time I've heard that... The cable could be OPEN, have an intermittent connection etc...

I am imagining the trace on the PCB could be something like this:

Pin 1 ------>---->----|(a)

Pin 2 ------>---->----|(b)

A and B connected at the same point.


the current is divided between Pins 1/2 to points a/b. If ALL the current flows along the line of 1 to a, and nothing between 2 /b, the trace will act like a fuse and burn OPEN. That's why they stress when making a cable use both pins. I learned last night the current draw is 5 A on record to a CF card.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

senior pana
do you have a homepage where all your red related cables are listed?

[Brent J. Craig]

My comments on this thread have been heavily censored and edited. How sad.

Everything is perfect. Question nothing.

You won't be seeing as much of me around here.

[Lauri Kettunen]

Methinks you are being a tad too literal with the "blew out" phrase.

Most likely you and Pana-tech are right. I just tried to figure out what the heck Jarred really tries to say. It seems to be bit of his style to employ stronger expressions than needed. Or, in other words, I would be surprised if he is older than 35.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

senior pana
do you have a homepage where all your red related cables are listed?

same question here .thanks kaya

[Jarred Land]

My comments on this thread have been heavily censored and edited. How sad.

Everything is perfect. Question nothing.

You won't be seeing as much of me around here.

oops sorry man.. i deleted the whole post instead of half the post... your "every camera has an XLR" comment wasnt supposed to go, which is why I left the responses quoting it... my bad.

Excuse my venting... Crew your an asset here.. one of the smarter ones and like us, you express how you feel. I like that.

I just got a little cranky the last couple days, mostly from the whole metric lens post, we literally busted our asses to get those scales on lenses and when everyone started "bitching" about them it made me a little testy..


It seems to be bit of his style to employ stronger expressions than needed.

ding ding ding.. you hit the nail on the head. I get excited easy :)

[Brent J. Craig]

For the record, he deleted the humorous part of my post. I worked hard on that Photoshop! :-) As we know, humor has no place in professional discourse.

I will be mostly lurking for a while.

[Jarred Land]

heh heh heh.. post it again Crewpix..

i promise not to call you a bitch :)

[Simon Valderrama]

I just got a little cranky the last couple days, mostly from the whole metric lens post, we literally busted our asses to get those scales on lenses and when everyone started "bitching" about them it made me a little testy..

ah! how dare they!:angry01:
i'm so happy about the metric lenses ... i was one of the first ones to ask for them and i now i already feel them in my hands ... feels good!
true gratitude from the ones who need them should make you ignore the bitchin' :)

thanks again for your hard work

[David M]

http://www.apcmedia.com/resource/images/500/Front_Left/5F9DCF4A-5056-AE36-FE34BAF4B99E6A78_pr.jpg
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE550R
Great, as long as you throw in a Monster surge protection board at the input so you don't blow the UPS's power supply when there's a voltage spike:whistling:

Don't worry, I've seen plenty of dead UPS's with exactly that problem! The equipment they were powering was spared, though.

There are no easy or foolproof answers, you just have to take as many precautions as possible.

[Lauri Kettunen]

ding ding ding.. you hit the nail on the head. I get excited easy :)

... and that's a wonderful thing. There are far too many cynical people in the world. It's always a positive thing to find people who get excited on what they are doing.

In fact, my question is precisely this: I'll be shooting wildlife documents with Red One, which means I will be long periods of time in the wilderness in hides or otherwise out of power supply. So, it is a basic thing to have enough power to run the camera. Consequently, I would like to know all the details of the camera to make sure that, when I'm out there, the camera will not suddenly stop running for some silly reason.

For example, say I power the camera from some external battery having big capacity. But, if there is even a slight risk that the camera gets stucken --or something "blows ou"t-- when the voltage gets low enough, then I consider using the Red batteries to power the camera and have an inverter to charge Red batteries with the external big battery.

[Jarred Land]

Great post Lauri.. you are approaching it the right way.

There are other batteries out there that can send the camera the right information in terms of voltage.. and if you want to use a source that doesn't, you just need to make sure those batteries can report voltage separately and keep an eye on it.